Chaos Crushing Altcoins!🔥with Jamie Coutts

The crypto market was dealt another grueling sell-off on Thursday, with several altcoins facing double-digit moves to the downside while BTC and ETH began to challenge critical levels of support.

~This episode is sponsored by Tangem~
Tangem ➜ https://bit.ly/TangemPBN
Use Code: "PBN" for Additional Discounts!

GUEST: Jamie Coutts, Chief Crypto Analyst at Real Vision
Follow Jamie on X ➜ https://x.com/Jamie1Coutts

00:00 Intro
00:10 Sponsor: Tangem
00:45 John D’Agostino (Coinbase Institutional): Crypto is reality
02:20 Is there a real appetite for this type of volatility?
04:30 Retail vs The Great Debasement
07:15 Is Trump sentiment fading amongst crypto holders?
11:15 Are we still in a bull market?
15:30 MetaMask x Hyperliquid partnership: Good or Bad for market?
17:30 Saylor acknowledges Tom Lee’s importance to ETH
19:30 DATs vs ETFs: Which is a better vehicle for crypto exposure?
21:20 Does Solana need a Tom Lee?
23:50 Solana x Uniswap
26:35 The Debasement narrative
29:20 Are we getting altseason?
33:35 Outro

#Bitcoin #Ethereum #Crypto
~Chaos Crushing Altcoins!🔥w/ Jamie Coutts~
⎺⎺⎺⎺⎺⎺⎺⎺⎺⎺⎺⎺⎺⎺⎺⎺⎺⎺⎺⎺⎺⎺⎺⎺⎺⎺⎺⎺⎺⎺⎺⎺⎺⎺⎺⎺⎺⎺⎺⎺⎺⎺⎺⎺⎺⎺⎺⎺⎺⎺⎺⎺⎺⎺⎺⎺⎺⎺⎺⎺⎺⎺⎺⎺⎺⎺⎺⎺⎺⎺⎺⎺


Join our community!

Diamond Circle Email (FREE)➜ https://bit.ly/pbnmembership
Private Telegram Group (FREE) ➜ https://t.me/+nISqoMxrok40NTcx

Subscribe on YouTube ✅ https://bit.ly/PBNYoutubeSubscribe
X/Twitter 📱 http://bit.ly/PBNtwitter

Get official PBN merch! ➜ https://merch.paulbarronnetwork.com/
~ The Best Self Custody Wallet ➜ https://tangem.com/en/ Use Code PBN for Additional Discounts!
~ The Best Crypto Exchange ➜ Coinbase, get up to $200 in crypto - coinbase-consumer.sjv.io/BARRON
~ Looking for the best tax havens for Crypto? Free Month with iTrust Capital ➜ Use PROMO CODE - PAUL BARRON https://rebrand.ly/PAULBARRON

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Today we'll dive into tariffs and whether or not they
are hitting the all coin market. How this is going
to play out for you. We've got a special guest
for you, so stay tuned right here. I do want
to jump into our sponsor and that is Tangum. This
is where you guys can get into self custody, pretty
easy to do. If you've never done self custody, well
this is your chance. It works like a credit card
with your phone. It is a physical wallet, so very

(00:23):
very secure and also simple a set up as well,
So just join by going overd to tanjum dot com.
You guys can get in right there, get the three
card set. It's the best way to kind of start
this process and start to move some of your tokens
off of as a centralized exchanges and get started there.
All right, guys, I want to bring in a special
guests today, but before we do that, I want to

(00:44):
jump over to a clip, and this is talking about
crypto in general and where we are in this current cycle.

Speaker 2 (00:51):
Take a look if you think about like when market
meltdowns happen in equities, and I send on the boards
of some entities that invest in private equity venture capital,
and it really interesting thing happens. So public equity markets
wipe COVID happens, they wipe out its complete bedlam. Privately,
when the adventure capital don't move that much, it's kind
of odd like they kind of just don't move nearly
as much as equities. And that's because they're cadence as

(01:14):
much slower. They tend to mark to market quarterly. They
have more time to absorb information. Crypto is to public
equity markets what public equity markets are at venture capital
and private equity in that it's so much faster, it's
so much more transparent. It operates twenty four to seven
near instantaneous settlement. So what I would offer to you,

(01:35):
and I'm not sure if this makes people feel better,
is what they're seeing in crypto is the reality they're
not seeing a watered down version that shuts down at
five o'clock every day or prices quarterly. I would rather
know what my mark to market is than any one
point in time than have that sort of hidden by
a slow cadence.

Speaker 1 (01:55):
So that being the case, And obviously this is all
in reference to the most recent liquidations that we saw
in the market, and part of this is really how tokenization,
how the shift of Wall Street is really underway. So
we wanted to bring on an expert, that is Jamie Coates,
who is the chief crypto analyst over at Real Vision.
We've had ral on before, so Jamie, welcome in. Appreciate
you coming in.

Speaker 3 (02:17):
Oh, thanks for having people.

Speaker 1 (02:19):
All right, So let's get into a couple of points
real quick. First up, is I want to hit on
this tweet right here. Blackrocks CEO Larry Fink says, it's
only the beginning of tokenization of everything, So we're going
to see money property, our abas are going to hit
in here. He calls it a major opportunity for Blackrock,
saying that the plan is to move beyond traditional finance

(02:40):
as a system and really kind of repositioning the entire
ecosystem of Wall Street. When you look at that right now,
is there an appetite that was the coinbas institutional team
they're talking about. There is there an appetite for this
kind of market right now where we'd have three sixty
five twenty four seven liquidity active markets. What are your thoughts?

Speaker 3 (03:05):
Oh, definitely, I tend to take what Larry Fink says
quite seriously. So when he says that he wants to
tokenize financial outsets and put them on chain, and he's
talking in grand scale, I think he actually means it.
And the reason why these large Wall Street firms are
sort of salivating at the opportunity, at least those ones
that are progressive, is that it opens up capital markets

(03:26):
and the potential for greater profits. They see an opportunity
to disintermediate a lot of the other financial players in
the existing system and be right at the center of
this new system. So whilst they're still, you know, they
are giants in their own right in the traditional system,
they're progressive enough to see that this new infrastructure allows

(03:50):
twenty four hour access and opens up capital markets to
more investors. And I guess there's more utility of financial
assets on chain, with being able to use it collateral
and do more things with it, and they're just trying
to get in first. So I certainly believe that is
the intention.

Speaker 1 (04:08):
Yeah, well, I think you know, when you look at
Black obviously they're kind of the center of the universe
as it is right now. I think their position is
they don't want to lose that because they see the
velocity in which these markets can move, So I guess
Kudo's to think he's you know, he kind of understands
what's going on, so it is definitely playing into it. Hey,
I want to go to a tweet that you had

(04:28):
in here. This is kind of an interesting point. Crypto
market was far from euphorik going into this epic crash.
A couple of points you hit on is exponential adoption
of blockchain infrastructure that's going to touch every industry, kind
of to what Larry's talking about. But this point right
here is the great debasement. Watch the policy moves from
the central planners. I love the Spice muff flow reference

(04:51):
there in where this is going. But Bitcoin is the
king SLV and dominant as far as l wants for
exponential growth. Do you think retail is understanding what's going
on right now because there is a major shift happening
in our monetary system.

Speaker 3 (05:09):
Yeah, Look, I think in terms of whether retail is
understanding the debasement story, yes, it's still I would say
it's it's not as widely known as it should be.
Otherwise bitcoin would be worth ten trillion dollars today or
twenty trillion dollars a day. But you know, we can
see the zeitgeist is shifting. Number One, this is an

(05:30):
asset that was only investible for the plubs, you know,
for retail, for the workers, and it's grown to two
to three trillion dollars by you know, just through grass
roots adoption. Now institutions are starting to work it out.
And the irony is that the greatest debas is in

(05:52):
our economy today, which is the banks or eighty to
ninety percent depending on your economy, of all new currency
that's printed printed through the traditional banking system. The irony
is that the great debases themselves are calling it the
great debasement trade. I don't think they fully understand the
irony of that, of that statement and what they're saying

(06:13):
to their clients. But nevertheless, here we are welcome to
the party, guys. So I think it is starting to
become more It is something more widely understood the cost
of living crisis. After the COVID calamity, I think brought
that brought that to bear for more and more people,
and it's only going to pick up steam. I mean,
there are elements of what's going on in the debasement trade,

(06:36):
gold and silver, for example, that look extremely overheated and
due for a correction, which would be natural in the
course of things. But I think you look at these
debasement trades taking decades, and the trajectory that the debt
cycle is on, the falling workforce and the gap between
GDP growth and debt, which can only be met with
extra liquidity, more debasement. I think it's only going to go,

(06:59):
you know, up and up from here, but there's going
to be some very large swings, you know, in the meantime.
So yeah, I think it's it's starting to pick up speed.

Speaker 1 (07:09):
How do you play what's happening with Trump's administration right now?
These these erratic moves we saw obviously the one that
kicked off the most recent epic, you know, shocked to
the market. Trump basically says the US is in a
trade war with China. This now, this is just happening
yesterday and today, and then of course China fires back

(07:31):
says it's planning to work with the United States to
find a solution on trade. So we're continuously seeing these
these models in which the system gets shocked because of
tariffs and these threats of tariffs, and then of course
you see Wall Street and the crypto markets responding and
we even put up a poll here where people were concerned,
is the Trump manipulation continuing to dump crypto? This is

(07:56):
the question is are they willing to say that Trump
is still good for the market. How do you play
this out? Do you look at this administration being a
key driver or more now more of an antagonist.

Speaker 3 (08:11):
In terms of Critso it's still a major driver. The
sea change that took place with the Trump administration coming
in with a total change of posture, a administration which
has people in place as specifically specifically looking at driving
technological adoption of AI and also blockchain technologies is monumental.

(08:34):
The regulatory changes and now the legislative changes, which I
would say are half done. There's still a major bill
that needs to get through which is looking a little
bit more difficult than the Genius Acts, but that is
an essential part of that legislative framework that needs to
pass soon. And we've just saw obviously we've come out
of this liquidation event, and that's why a market structure

(08:56):
and proper rules and regulations for the road for a
lot of these exchanges needs to be inforce. But to
go back to the question, is the Trumpe administration good
for crypto markets or the asset class overall. Yes, But
I mean, let's let's be realistic about what we're dealing
with here. We're dealing with the US Empire, which is

(09:17):
now thirty seven thirty eight trillion dollars in debt. There's
constant government shutdowns, the good debt is growing at twice
the economic growth, and you've got a populist government or
in a populous president who is volatile by nature. All
of these ingredients put together increases volatility overall. And it's

(09:38):
where we are in this you know work. When we
call a generational change or the fourth turning or whatever
it is, it's just it's part of the It's really
part of the equation. But the important thing for everyone
that I try to drill in to my subscribers at
Real Vision is that technical there's two basically large secular trends.
There is the debasement of currency that will likely only

(10:02):
accelerate until we get to escape velocity with ai new
productivity that comes through, so it's probably three to five
years in that time frame. And then there is the
adoption itself, so technology growing at one hundred percent compound
growth rates, whether it's the number of users in crypto,
whether it's the number of transactions, whether it's the settlement values,

(10:23):
stable coins, collateral levels, all of this stuff is growing
at such a fast compounding rate that you've got a
hyper fast growing technology. But that also invites, with asual
Alasco said, hyper volatility of itself because it's liquid, it's
trading twenty four to seven, it's not like other asset classes.
So overall, you know, I'm very, very positive about what

(10:46):
the Trump administration is doing, but you have to match
that with the personality of Donald Trump himself, who can
do some pretty wild things.

Speaker 1 (10:54):
Well, I mean, it's natural for crypto. I feel like
this is feels like this guy was born for crypto
in terms of the craziness and that he's bringing into
the market. Because of course, if you saw what happened
in twenty twenty one, we've seen everything from Luna to Celsius,
you name them out there in terms of the craziness.
Now you've got Binance founder cz hitting on this. Maybe

(11:17):
we haven't hitten and this is happening after Binance in Hyperlika.
Just as a reminder, they were going at it over
the weekend about this shock to the system. But he's
hitting on it right now, saying that we're not even
in the real bull market. Yeah, what is your opinion
on it? You think? Would you agree with CZ? Or No?

Speaker 3 (11:35):
Yeah, I don't know what timeframe cz is referring to,
because a bullmark. What we've got is a structural, secular
bull market in these assets. But we've got cycles, so
he's probably referring to the cycle itself. So I'll interpret
it that way and answer it that way. The cycles

(11:55):
for crypto, which very from the outset was deemed to
be determined by the bitcoind Harving, is actually very much
tied to and a result of the debasement or the
liquidity cycle. So liquidity and the debasement in the economy
picks up speed and slows down depending on I guess

(12:16):
it's really tied into the debt of governments and when
they have to refinance their debt, and that debt refinancing cycle,
which is the crypto cycle, which people sort of look
at as the four year cycle. The bigcoint Harving cycle
dressed up is roughly sort of four years. But everything
changed in COVID because when interest rates were brought to

(12:37):
zero and they shut down the whole economy. The US
government started to borrow at longer a longer maturity, and
that sort of extended the cycle. And what that means
is we are of the view that bitcoin and also
crypto in general hasn't topped yet for this cycle, because
we still think that the economy is about to start

(12:58):
to hit up in flag up and there's probably more
liquidity to come into the system before they have to
tighten the screws again like they did in twenty twenty two.
So we saw obviously they're cutting rates, and cutting rates
is bullish full liquidity, but it's not as important as
what the central bank does in and around bank reserves

(13:20):
and quantitative policy, and they've been tightening really since twenty
twenty two. Yesterday or the day before, I believe, I
think it was POWE came out and said, look, they
may end QT and that was the first real indication
that this policy is going to end. And that's liquidity positive.
It's not the same as QE, but it is a
signal to the market that things are starting to get

(13:43):
tight in the financial system, sort of behind in the
on the bank reserve side, it's not necessarily what we see,
but in the financial system, and that just I think
is another reason why I think there's still more room
to go, because there's still more liquidity expansion. But the
problem is there hasn't been as much liquidity pumped into

(14:04):
the system because of the over egging it they did
in the previous cycle, and so everyone's very upset that
crypto hasn't done as well. And that's where you've got
to be very discerning about which assets you're invested in.
That's why that tweet was referring to high quality l once,
because that's the settlement layer of the new financial economy.

Speaker 1 (14:22):
Well, and if you look at that, I'm obviously we'll
take a look at a handful with Ethereum and Solana,
but I want to go into this point right here,
and I kind of agree with you. I think that
this elongation that we're in right now in terms of
the liquidity cycle is unique. It's a unique condition that
we haven't seen before. Obviously, Trump's administration injects even more

(14:45):
into it because of what they are doing from a
tariff side of things. That changes the economic structure of
what we're seeing here in the US, which usually has
ripple effects globally. But when you flip over to outside
of bitcoin, move into just quickly over here on what
Meta mask is doing, because they've launched now hyper liquid

(15:06):
Powered Perpse on met Mass Mobile. So this is this
is another layer of the ability at least for most
people because, like you had mentioned earlier, us plubs that
are beginning to play these markets, these kind of tool
sets have never really been available to us. Now they are.
What is your opinion of how we're seeing leverage being

(15:27):
used in the market right now, especially with this news
with Meta Mask. Is that a good thing or a
bad thing?

Speaker 3 (15:35):
Yeah? I'm a conflicted on it because you know, the
build up and leverage is inevitable because momentum feeds momentum
and that usually ends pretty badly for everyone. So whilst
I you know, I love the access to products and
the access to new tools for everyone on the planet,

(15:56):
including people who are outside the West, who can now
simply spin on a wallet and get access to a
digital asset, a digital asset that will protect them from
the ravages of inflation at home and abroad. There's definitely
there's definitely two sites that equation with the extra leverage
that comes in, you know, through these products. But I

(16:17):
think it's just a it's a reflection of the financialization
of the global economy. Sports betting, gaming, these are all
sort of social phenomenons that are only expanding their truly
growth industries. Crypto sort of ties into that in a
certain way because people do use it as either an
escape either as a form of entertainment, but they also

(16:41):
use it obviously to try and dig themselves out of
the mess that they're in because of the debatement and
what governments are doing with the money printing and all
of the other policies that we're subjected to. So it's
a double edged sort yeah.

Speaker 1 (16:55):
Well, and I think that's the key is you look
at this leverage that we saw obviously within the market
largest you know, correction that we've seen ever in the
history of crypto. But at the same time, traditional markets
really didn't see that much of a drip, and neither
did Bitcoin or even ethereum to a certain extent. And
if you look at the two majors, and I want

(17:16):
to get back to the question on whether or not
tariffs have hit this all coin cycle in a big
way or for this is just eke you know, elongated out.
The one reason is typically in all coin you know runs,
it's usually led by ethereum. And a comparison is between
what's going on with Bitcoin and ethereum. You've got to
look at the two champions of this, one being sailor

(17:39):
around what's happening with micro strategy. And now you've got
Tom Lee coming in from bitmin, who is a digital
asset treasury that's really stoking the fires on ETH. I
want to play a clip for you and then I'll
get to kind of your opinion on whether or not
ETH can make it into a position to move forward
in the alts. Let me go to that clip.

Speaker 4 (17:58):
Tom Lee has emerged a probably the most visible influential
spokesperson in the entire ethereum ecosystem in a matter of months,
maybe a matter of weeks. What does that represent? Well,
first of all, they have ten billion dollars of capital.
Second of all, Tom Lee is part of the Wall
Street establishment. He was never part of the cryptoic establishment.

(18:21):
You saw Wall Street merges with the crypto economy, capital
flows because it trusts Tom Lee. And then the next
thing you know, you have Tom Lee having conversations with
the early ethereum on trepreneurs with the metalics of the world,
you know, and the like. And what's interesting there is
that entire movement becomes commercialized, institutionalized, legitimized, rationalized, becomes a

(18:48):
bit older, a bit more credible.

Speaker 1 (18:52):
All right. So, I mean I think that was a
nice way of saying he respected Tom. You know, you
never know what saying well.

Speaker 3 (18:59):
I mean, yeah, I was just going to say, look,
he's definitely got his facts wrong on Tom Lee coming
into crypto recently. Tom Lee was the person who changed
my mind back in twenty seventeen, oh sorry, twenty eighteen
in the bear market, and his whole company pivoted to crypto,
and he lost a ton of clients because he was
talking about crypto in twenty eighteen when no one wanted

(19:22):
to touch it. Nevertheless, yeah, it was a it was
a complementary talk.

Speaker 1 (19:27):
I would say, you look at that and just at
the ETH reserves right here. This has continued to fly
versus ETH ETFs. So my questions to you are twofold. First,
do you think the eth dats, the digital asset treasuries
are going to continue this trend right now in terms

(19:48):
of outperforming the ETFs moving forward. What are your thoughts.

Speaker 3 (19:54):
Yeah, that's a good question. I think it's going to
be I think they'll probably outperform, but I don't I
don't think the trade is as straightforward as it seems.
I see m nabs compressing. I think there was a
time in this market when these dats really started to
explode on the scene for first mover advantage, where m

(20:16):
nabs were fat or expanded like trading several times over
the NAV. They gave them the leeway to issue a
ton of equity to buy more of the underlying asset.
So I think the leverage on the Ethereum and some
of the other digital asset companies is such that yes,

(20:38):
they will outperform eth but because they're I mean, they've
got a productive asset as well, so they've got a
yield so that it's going to be attractive, and I
think that alone gives them an edge over the ETFs.
Maybe some ets, sorry, some m NAB expansion could be
possible as we get through the rest of the cycle

(20:59):
and things improved into early next year. But I don't
think personally for me, that the DAT trade is going
to be as compelling as it was earlier. This year.

Speaker 1 (21:10):
Interesting. Okay, because of that, we've got Solana and even
SWI who are setting up in a variety of different ways.
Do you think that Solana needs a Tom Lee type,
you know, to go out there and kind of champion
its whole position.

Speaker 3 (21:29):
Well, there is a there is essentially an equivalent, but
he doesn't have the same stature outside of crypto. So
the sea of multi of multi coin coin within crypto
circles is very, very prominent, and it's definitely increasing his
visibility outside. He's not the same as Tom Lee. Tom
Lee was Jamian Morgan's equity strategist for like twenty years,

(21:52):
So yeah, potentially, But look, I mean this is you know,
this is an l one with a smaller overall base,
and so it's you know, it's going to attract new
people in time, and I think that's going to have
the same sort of notoriety or popularity on Wall Street eventually.

(22:14):
There is definitely cheerleaders of the Solana ecosystem from guys
like bit Wise, like Matt Hogan, but of course they're
talking about it from the perspective of selling products around it.
But look, I don't think I'm personally not a huge
fan of the personality cults that arise in the space.
But it's just a it's human nature and it's natural

(22:36):
to see it. So I guess it would be good
for Solana, but I don't think it's needed. Like you
look at the numbers and look at how the ecosystem
is growing, They're doing, you know, extremely well, and those
ETFs will likely get approved in the next couple of
weeks and then we'll start to see retail flows flow
in and we'll have our third major crypto asset or

(22:56):
crypto network accessible to everyone through us ETFs.

Speaker 1 (23:01):
Yeah. Well, and I think the point you have to
look at is for the next wave of adoption. Now,
if it's institutional, sure, I don't think you know, a
salesperson so to speak, is needed out there. But once
you get into private offices, you get into a high
networth individuals, businesses holding assets which are all going to
be coming down. Then you get into of course retail.

(23:23):
You know, they need you know, a Jensen, they need
a n Elon, they need a Mark Zuck, you know,
they need that person that they can kind of point
to in this new, you know, fangled thing called crypto.
And Tom Lee is right now and I think Michael
does a you know, Sailor does the same thing. He
represents bitcoin very well. So I think Solana needs someone. Man,
I don't know who it's going to be, but I

(23:44):
think they need somebody, or is Solana needs someone going forward?
You got this news right here, Solona is now live
on the uniswap web app. So that means that you've
got an eth ecosystem now starting to suck in a
little bit of the Salon attraction right there. So this
is the point I'm getting at is with all this
competitive nature within the market, it feels like we've got

(24:06):
to have you know, these people out there championing these
chains for sure.

Speaker 3 (24:14):
Look, it doesn't hurt provided the person who's championing the
ecosystem doesn't represent you know, sort of or hidden risks. Right.
So the thing I'm always worried about with Sailor is,
and I love Sailor, is that he becomes such a
key person that he himself becomes the risk at the moment.

(24:36):
That's not the case because he's been a champion. He's
been so influential and prominent in a way that's really
grown the bitcoin, the bitcoin knowledge and understanding and accessibility
so for now it's not an issue. But yeah, I mean,
what was interesting about what you just mentioned there with
the uniswap is is a sort of a thesis that

(24:59):
I've been building for a little while now, and other
people have been talking about it, but I haven't started
to shift any of my sort of investment decisions towards
this thesis. But when you look at a uniswap is
an application, it's now built its own chain, it's now
doing cross chain swaps. You know, my view is in

(25:21):
the future, I think you're going to see the abstraction
away from the or the abstraction of chains from our thinking.
When we're dealing with crypto. We'll think about the product.
We'll think about the business that's in the ecosystem, whether
it's a wallet or a specific action, whether it's lending
or credit or swapping like with uniswap and that, and

(25:44):
because they'll be multi chain, they will be that the
chain discussion becomes less and less prominent. We're not there
by any stretch. This is probably a decade long sort
of evolution of the ecosystem. But you know, the infrastructure
shouldn't be that interesting if it works, and if it
has the characteristics of credible neutrality and decentralization, and it's

(26:09):
fast and it's cheap. Then we start to think about
sort of business on top of it. But I mean
that's just that it hasn't been playing out right, That
hasn't really been playing out in terms of an investment
thesis of like buying the DeFi applications versus the the
l ones themselves. But I think in time that's where
I see the market evolving, and that was a great

(26:29):
example of it.

Speaker 1 (26:30):
Yeah, I want to revisit your tweet here because this
is very interesting. Debasers start pitching the debasement trade, all right,
so to clients.

Speaker 3 (26:39):
So this is talking.

Speaker 1 (26:40):
About big capital. Explain to me what would actually make
this happen. Do you think they're doing it now? Do
you think the Wall Street guys are out there really
getting in and doing this today?

Speaker 3 (26:56):
Well, yeah, it's evident they are. They're sending around research.
It's using the term the debasement trade, and a famous
fixed income a fund manager was talking about it as well.
So it's it's percolated up into the consciousness of Wall Street. Now,
I've worked in Wall Street, so I always pause when

(27:18):
I start to see the obviousness start to be expressed
in the large Wall Street companies in terms of how
they're pitching or selling something, and that usually it usually
has a timing impact which is dubious, like are we
sort of near the end of the trade? Have they
positioned early and now they're sort of, you know, flogging

(27:39):
the same trade to their clients as exit liquidity. That's
just my sort of cynical, cynical sort of perspective on everything.
But I don't think it's the end of that trade,
even though in gold and some of the other precious
metals which are debasement assets or anti debasement assets, I
should say things are looking extremely heated and positioning is

(28:04):
at levels which I would be wanting some caution on.
But in terms of big kind that's certainly it's not overheated,
and I don't think that trade is over. But I
think it's interesting that it is starting now to get
it's the terms that we've been using for a decade
to describe what is happening is now being used at

(28:25):
the highest sort of echelance by Wall Street companies, and
that just tells me that I think the zeitgeist is shifted.

Speaker 1 (28:34):
Well and I'm in agreement with that. The interesting thing
to me, though, is this demographic that we're dealing with
now is quite a bit different. It's no longer the
boomers and even the Gen X is, you know, my
generation that are dealing with that position right now, now
we're talking about millennials and eventually what will be gen Z.
They've already kind of the ship is saled. They're already

(28:56):
down the debasement trade model pretty significantly, So I don't
know if they're gonna be paying much attention there. I
think they're gonna be watching Eth. They're gonna be watching
a lot of these l ones, you know, and how
they play into this all coin market and whether or
not we get a run on this. I want to
close with the question that we kind of opened with,
and that is the future of an all coin season.

(29:16):
You know, ETH hasn't necessarily had its day in the sun.
Bitcoin based on a lot of analysts still think there's
a lot left. Tom Lee's out there pushing like crazy.
Do you think that ETH is going to lead us
into the promised land in terms of an all coin
season around these l ones, Solana, Avalanche, Sweet, you name them.

Speaker 3 (29:39):
Well, I mean if you look at there are a
couple of other l ones that have done, you know,
really quite well, like if you look at bmb's all
time highs. You know, tron is a essentially just a
one use case chain and it's not credibly neutral like

(29:59):
other chains. Let's just say the large l ones, you know,
they have done a little bit better than Eth. But
Ether has been outperforming in the last sort of six months.
So what I've been I guess what I've been discussing
through really this entire cycle, is that this cycle was
always going to be different because the type of investor

(30:20):
coming in, even though it's been a slow drip so far,
is a more discerning investor being the institutions. Institutions move
the capital. Yes, there's been dats on lower quality assets,
but where did they start. They started a bitcoin ethereum,
and that is because and sorry Solana, and there's even

(30:41):
been BnB. There have been ones in the lower tail
as well that they're not sort of at the you know,
the number two hundred asset, it's more like number sort
of ten asset. It's simply a reflection of which assets
have product market fit and have users and have activity,
because that is the signal that this asset is going

(31:01):
to last two years, five years, ten years down the line.
It's already showing that, you know, people want to use it,
and it's generating cash flows off the back of it
which are returned to validators, which make the economic investment
in that network a worthwhile investment in the first place.
So you know, it's people have to be discerning and

(31:22):
focus on the assets that have the users and have
the activity. And so it's been a very narrow old
coin rally or old coin season, if you want to
call it that. I think the broad based rally that
we saw in the last ball market is not to
be repeated. There is a lot of inflated no PMF

(31:44):
coins and assets out there that need to essentially die,
and there is a lot of attention being diluted through
these other coins and into NFTs and all sorts of
other sort of djen activity on chain, and that ultimately,
whilst they could pump and provide short term returns, is

(32:05):
extremely hard to pick and won't deliver long term returns.
So Wall Street comes in, looks at these assets and
go right, we know this is the future of finance.
How do we invest where we invest with the models
and the thinking that have served us well in traditional finance,
which is where are the users, where are the cash flows?
Here are the l ones that actually got millions and
millions of transactions every day with real viable applications that

(32:28):
are profitable, like the businesses inside the economy are profitable,
We'll invest there. And so the number twelve, number fourteen,
number twenty, number fiftieth, l one that's competing is not
going to get a look in. And that's why that
tail feels so terrible, and that's why the breadth in
the rally in the cycle has been so narrow.

Speaker 1 (32:47):
Yeah. Well, and it's also I think the stack is
changing because it used to be mostly cryptonative. That was
really causing the stack to move in terms of how
we saw all coin season react, which was in twenty
twenty one, these blow off tops, these big, huge runs.
Now it's a different dynamic. You've got Wall Street playing
into the game. They're influencing a lot of people now,

(33:09):
which is the bigger play I think is the influence
on the network effect on many of these l ones
that you're mentioning. So I'm in agreement with you there, Hey, Jamie,
we got to get you back on the show. I
love to kind of pick the brains of people who
are really diving in deep on this because understanding where
this market is going is very important right now. This
might be the most critical time of getting into something

(33:32):
early because we are setting up for a pretty big
run here. So thanks for coming in today. I appreciate it,
my pleasure, Pul, thanks.

Speaker 3 (33:40):
For having me.

Speaker 1 (33:41):
You bet all right, You guys, make sure and join
the Diamond Circle. That's our own private group. You guys
can jump in very easily. It's free. We leave a
link down below. Catch me out there on X at
Paul Baron. We'll catch you next time right here on
The Paul Baron Show.