September 23, 2025 • 20 mins
Monday’s crash wiped out over $1.5 billion in leveraged positions, with Ether plunging 9% and Bitcoin also sliding before trimming losses. By Tuesday, Ether traded near $4,194 and Bitcoin at $113,000, while traders hedged with options on both sharp declines and big rallies.
Guest: Matt Hougan, CIO at Bitwise Asset Management
Bitwise website ➜ https://bit.ly/BitwiseCryptoETF
~This Episode is Sponsored By Coinbase~
 Buy $50 & Get $50 for getting started on Coinbase➜ https://bit.ly/coinbasePBN
00:00 intro
00:05 Sponsor: Coinbase
00:30 Crypto Release Valve Dip
01:19 Weekend Volatility
03:43 Bitwise Ethereum ETF
04:11 ETF Season Begins Soon
05:53 Solana ETF Hype
07:39 Treasury Companies vs ETF's
08:52 Banks Scared of Stablecoins is Bullish
10:47 Bitwise Crypto Index
12:18 Silver vs Gold
14:19 Tokenized Silver Catalyst Coming
15:50 Web3 ETF & RobloxÂ
17:54 Kevin O'Leary Collectibles Index
19:43 outro
#Crypto #Bitcoin #Ethereum
~Crypto Pressure Release Before Rally🚀Matt Hougan Bitwise INTERVIEW~
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Guest: Matt Hougan, CIO at Bitwise Asset Management
Bitwise website ➜ https://bit.ly/BitwiseCryptoETF
~This Episode is Sponsored By Coinbase~
 Buy $50 & Get $50 for getting started on Coinbase➜ https://bit.ly/coinbasePBN
00:00 intro
00:05 Sponsor: Coinbase
00:30 Crypto Release Valve Dip
01:19 Weekend Volatility
03:43 Bitwise Ethereum ETF
04:11 ETF Season Begins Soon
05:53 Solana ETF Hype
07:39 Treasury Companies vs ETF's
08:52 Banks Scared of Stablecoins is Bullish
10:47 Bitwise Crypto Index
12:18 Silver vs Gold
14:19 Tokenized Silver Catalyst Coming
15:50 Web3 ETF & RobloxÂ
17:54 Kevin O'Leary Collectibles Index
19:43 outro
#Crypto #Bitcoin #Ethereum
~Crypto Pressure Release Before Rally🚀Matt Hougan Bitwise INTERVIEW~
⎺⎺⎺⎺⎺⎺⎺⎺⎺⎺⎺⎺⎺⎺⎺⎺⎺⎺⎺⎺⎺⎺⎺⎺⎺⎺⎺⎺⎺⎺⎺⎺⎺⎺⎺⎺⎺⎺⎺⎺⎺⎺⎺⎺⎺⎺⎺⎺⎺⎺⎺⎺⎺⎺⎺⎺⎺⎺⎺⎺⎺⎺⎺⎺⎺⎺⎺⎺⎺⎺⎺⎺
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Today. It's going to be a good one.
Speaker 2 (00:01):
I'm going to have Matt Hogan on so you don't
want to miss it. My name is Paul Bareer. Welcome
back into the show. Let's get into it. I do
want to thank our sponsor, and that is coinbase, where
you guys can get into your crypto journey, very easy
to set up an account over there. Future of money
is here, and actually they have a new program and
that is that right there, a credit card that you
can get into early access up to four percent back
(00:22):
on every purchase, so that in itself is kind of
a built in savings account.
Speaker 1 (00:27):
Check it out.
Speaker 2 (00:28):
Use our link down in the in the description. I
want to lead off here before we get in with
Matt Hogan a clip because a lot of people are
trying to figure out how and why this market dip
started to happen and what is it going to look
like to come out of it.
Speaker 1 (00:43):
Let's go to that clip. The macro hedge funds.
Speaker 3 (00:44):
You ask how they really trade crypto, They use it
as a release file for macro events. Right, how many
times have you seen a geopolitical situation happen on a
Friday night? Post to close?
Speaker 4 (00:53):
Right?
Speaker 3 (00:53):
And then you know, by Monday everything setul bitcoin is
going up five percent, down four percent, right by token
is securities and in equities, you open up the world
of twenty four seven trading. Nonetheless, I think there's definitely
tom on there for sure.
Speaker 2 (01:06):
That was it Wasmant Naim, head of assets over at coinbase,
And I want to bring in Matt Hogan, as you
guys know there he is Matt Hogan CIO.
Speaker 1 (01:16):
Bitwise. Great to have you back on the show.
Speaker 4 (01:18):
Glad to be here, Paul, Good to see you.
Speaker 1 (01:20):
So when you look.
Speaker 2 (01:21):
At what what Uzma was talking about, this you know
this twenty four to seven volatility nature of crypto. You
see these wild swings on major assets. You look at
ETFs and you look at securities. Do you think we
could see that in the future flowing into how strategies
are being done on crypto itself, translating over to traditional markets.
Speaker 5 (01:45):
Oh.
Speaker 6 (01:45):
Absolutely. Crypto is sort of your window into the future.
It is showing you what twenty four to seven three
sixty five trading means. It means you can react instantaneously
to events. But one thing that I think people need
to realize is it doesn't repeal human nature. You see
a lot of these big exaggerated move Paul on the
weekend when the markets are less liquid than they are
(02:07):
during the week right, And that's familiar maybe to traditional
equity investors who are used to seeing exaggerated moves in
after hours trading. As an investor, you should look at
those moves skeptically. They don't necessarily reflect changing fundamentals in
the space. For example, there's nothing to change fundamentally about
crypto this week. The government still printing debt, the existing
(02:29):
financial infrastructure is still extraordinarily slow and inefficient. What happened
was the market entered it's a liquid period on Sunday night,
and there were some cascading liquidations. It's just a feature
of this market you have to be ready for for sure.
Speaker 2 (02:44):
Jim Kramer, he's getting a little cold feed. I think
I don't know that he's ready or maybe traditional markets
are ready for this. So the fact that we could
see these kinds of wild swings around a three sixty
five twenty four to seven market that's coming down the pipeline,
so I think they're going to have to get in
the game and understand this is maybe the future now.
Speaker 1 (03:06):
So here we are.
Speaker 4 (03:07):
Yeah, that's right. I mean, you have to change your ecosystem.
Speaker 6 (03:09):
You need trainers who are available to react twenty four
to seven, You need algorithms that are able to react
twenty four to seven. You have to understand liquidity and
illiquidity periods. But there's no turning this back. Right, the
long term future is twenty four to seven, three sixty
five global trading across all assets. That's what the world wants,
that's what the world will get. Crypto is just giving
(03:31):
you a glimpse into what that future means, the good
parts and the bad parts, the release valve and maybe
the Sunday night illiquidity. And it's good to train up
on that while crypto is still young.
Speaker 1 (03:43):
Yeah for sure.
Speaker 2 (03:44):
Well, speaking of kind of this direction of where we're going,
I'm looking at your spot ETHTF right here continuing to climb.
Speaker 1 (03:53):
So there you go. That's a good example. Just you know,
if you're.
Speaker 2 (03:55):
Looking at Holdling and you think about long term investment strategies,
this is kind of the structure I think a lot
of people are looking at right now when you look
at where eth is, where bitcoin is in terms of ETFs,
and then the potential of a lot more ETFs. I
was looking at your article right here, et Palooza. I
(04:16):
love this one. What do you see coming down the
pipe that's going to move the needle in a big
way for investors, especially around these ETFs.
Speaker 6 (04:27):
Yeah, they're probably two things to look out for. One
is what I mentioned in this article, which is the
SEC has cleared the way for a large number.
Speaker 4 (04:35):
Of crypto ETFs to launch.
Speaker 6 (04:36):
Right now, we just have bitcoin in eth I suspect
in a few months we'll have ETFs on a dozen assets.
In six months, we may have ETFs on twenty five assets.
So you're going to have this ETF exposure to a
large number of assets. The other thing that's happening behind
the scenes, maybe fewer headlines, is that national accounts are
(04:57):
finally approving spot bitcoin e so folks like Wells, Fargo, Brugan, Stanley,
and Merrill Lynch. So you have this this second wave
of growth that I think we're going to see in
those major assets just when the minor assets hit that first.
Speaker 4 (05:11):
Wave of growth. Both means more investment capital coming into
the crypto market.
Speaker 5 (05:16):
You know.
Speaker 6 (05:16):
The World Bank says that institutional and professional investors control
one hundred trillion dollars in assets If you think they're
going to end up five percent allocated to crypto, that's
five trillion dollars that needs to come into the market.
That's actually bigger than the entire market cap of crypto.
The market cap of crypto right now is just to
shade under four trillion dollars. So I think over the
(05:37):
next ten years you're going to have multiple trillions of
dollars of capital that needs to allocate to crypto. The
ETFs have done a little bit, they've done exceptionally well,
the fastest growing ETFs of all time, but there's still
maybe just a few toes in the water pole from.
Speaker 4 (05:53):
Where we're going to go.
Speaker 1 (05:54):
Yeah, you think about toes in the water.
Speaker 2 (05:55):
This is kind of an interesting trend right here Google trends,
Crypto ETF was the search term.
Speaker 1 (06:01):
You can kind of see it.
Speaker 2 (06:02):
Guys, this is pretty significant as we start to move
into it. The early stage of the Bitcoin ETF. I
think help kind of dive into that. But if you
look at just where this is going, Solana is really
the breakout query that's going. Obviously you mentioned the Solana
ETF as being one of the potentials here.
Speaker 1 (06:23):
Break that down for me.
Speaker 2 (06:25):
Do you think that it will be the most affected
by these digital asset treasuries.
Speaker 1 (06:29):
How does this play out for you guys.
Speaker 6 (06:32):
Yeah, it's a great, great question. You know, I wrote
another piece called Solana Season. I think Q four is
setting up to be an exceptional period for Solana. You
have the combination of three ingredients coming together. One, you
have the expectation of a large number of Solana etf
launching that means flows into those ETFs there's the article.
(06:52):
At the same time, you have these digital asset treasury
companies run by some of the biggest names in finance,
right Kyle's Somani of multi Coin, Dan morehead of Pantera.
These are ogs of crypto launching Solana specific strategies. That's
more buying of Solana. And then at the third point,
you just have this explosion of interest in stable coins
(07:15):
and tokenization. Some of that's benefited. The other major beneficiary
is Solana. You put all those three things together, it's
one of the best setups for a crypto asset that
I've seen in the last five plus years. I think
it could be if they all come together, an extraordinary
Q four for Solana.
Speaker 2 (07:35):
Well, I think that's what everybody's looking at and timing wise,
You're exactly right. I just look at the ether reserves
right now continuing to climb up. If you just look
at the explosion that we've seen in terms of the
digital asset treasury side of things, Solana Avalanche is coming
out to market with one. Do you feel that the
data companies have a little bit more effect on the
(07:57):
current price of the asset? I was looking at just
a percentage of supply held right now by publicly traded company.
I'm looking at Solana obviously had that big jump. We've
also seen just situations with ethan Bitcoin that have continued
to go up.
Speaker 1 (08:12):
What would be your opinion there?
Speaker 6 (08:14):
Yeah, I think of it sort of like the tortoise
and the hair pole. The dat companies are like the tortoises.
They jump into the market raised debt and buy one
hundred million dollars slugs, two hundred million dollars slugs, half
a trillion dollars, half a billion dollar slugs. The ETFs
are more like the hair incrementally each day buying ten, twenty, thirty, forty,
(08:35):
which matters more.
Speaker 4 (08:36):
It depends on your timeframe.
Speaker 6 (08:38):
Ultimately, the ETFs are going to be the bigger avenue
but these digital asseet treasury companies can do step function
purchases that really dictate the market. I think keeping that
tortoise and hair analogy in mind will help people think
about these two approaches.
Speaker 2 (08:54):
I was noticing this tweet of yours, Bank of England
proposing capital controls on citizens.
Speaker 1 (08:59):
This is crazy.
Speaker 2 (09:01):
I admissed this to where they would limit the amount
of stable coins that you potentially could hold. You're kind
of is this a bullish sign or maybe a bar
I think this might be a bullish sign.
Speaker 1 (09:14):
Actually, what's your opinion?
Speaker 6 (09:16):
It's a bullish sign. It means that they're worried enough
about stable coins, which remember two years ago you couldn't
get anyone in a suit to take a stable coin seriously.
And now Bank of England is worried enough that they're
thinking of putting fundamental restrictions on the economic freedom of
their citizens to access these things because it may oh
(09:36):
pull money out of the banking sector that's taking advantage
of them. It's an incredible sign of weakness. Ultimately, it
won't stand. Walls can keep in water for a while,
but it will find ways to spill out. I think
it just shows you how powerful this stable coin narrative
is that it has the Bank of England quaking in
its boots.
Speaker 4 (09:56):
I mean that is a big step from where we
were a few years ago.
Speaker 1 (09:59):
Oh yeah, huge.
Speaker 2 (10:00):
If you just look at what's happening in Europe, I
anticipate we're going to see a lot of people kind
of moving in that more decentralized fashion, especially around trying
to hold you know, wealth, which is the key here
for sure.
Speaker 4 (10:14):
That's right.
Speaker 6 (10:14):
We've been trapping people in their own geography and forcing
them to have no choice in their currency. Bitcoins started
to break that you didn't need to be government based,
you could hold something that's independent of that. Stable Coins
are another way you don't need to be local currency.
You could be in the dollar, which is the cleanest
dirty shirt in the fiat currency world. From my perspective,
(10:36):
more choice is better for investors, it's empowering for individuals,
and these sort of last gas efforts from people like
the Bank of England shows you that the time is
now that they're really ascended, that they're globally important.
Speaker 2 (10:48):
Speaking about the time as now, we've been doing some
research on bit wise, so I'm looking at returns, which
has been you know, absolutely amazing. And look at the
fund holdings here and you know, you look at just
the top four assets there, Bitcoin Ethereum, XRP, Solana, Cardonald's
(11:09):
even got a position chainey Avalanche. With everything that's happening
with avas, what we're seeing in in general, with some
of these assets, is it time to rebalance on this
or do you feel, hey, no, this is Paul, this
is this is the lock.
Speaker 1 (11:22):
We're going to go with this.
Speaker 4 (11:23):
Well, I love the question.
Speaker 5 (11:25):
You know.
Speaker 6 (11:25):
The funny thing about looking at this chart, this list
of assets in our index, the bit wise ten is
depending on what day you asked me, I might.
Speaker 4 (11:33):
Be more excited about one in one asset or the other.
Speaker 6 (11:37):
The way I think about this portfolio for most investors
is that this is your core. This is a market
cap weighted portfolio. It owns assets in direct proportion to
their size in the market, and that's your core. And
then most people will want a satellite that lets them overweight.
You may look at what Scaramucci is doing with the
Avalanche Digital Asset Treasury Company and say that's going to
(11:59):
be hot.
Speaker 4 (12:00):
I want to overweight Avalanche.
Speaker 6 (12:02):
You may look at what's happening in Solana Hogan says,
it's Solana season.
Speaker 4 (12:06):
I want to overweight Solana. We love that.
Speaker 6 (12:09):
But I think that index, which is like the S
and P five hundred, can be your core and then
people can over and underweight from there.
Speaker 4 (12:15):
That's what I do with my own personal portfolio. I
think a lot of people will as well.
Speaker 2 (12:19):
This is like the Matt Hogan's twenty greatest hits. Today
I'm looking at I'm looking at another one of your
tweets here, gold over silver and then Bitcoin over gold.
Now at the same time, we just had one of
the top guys I think in gold out there, Andy Sheckman.
He was on the show last week and he and
(12:39):
I were talking about it. He went the other direction.
He went the direction of silver because he was saying,
this forty five year breakout was absolutely insane. How would
you position right now with silver pumping gold shirt? Yes,
all time high? How would you play this out? I'm
just kind of curious of your transition.
Speaker 6 (12:59):
I love that quies and it goes back almost to
what we were talking about earlier. It's a matter of timeframe.
I was speaking from a history of money perspective. I
read a great book, The Secret History of Gold It
talked about why gold was money more so than silver.
One of the primary reasons was it was more dense
and easier to move. You could store a lot more
wealth in a small amount of gold than you could
(13:21):
in silver. Put a billion dollars in silver, it might
sink your ship. The reason bitcoin over gold is you
can store an infinite amount of wealth no space. With bitcoin,
you can move it around at the speed of light.
That's why I think bitcoin is ultimately ascended. Ultimately will
be a bigger asset than even gold, which will remain
bigger than silver, because it's better on those core monetary statistics.
(13:44):
From or characteristics from a short term perspective, I don't know.
Silver is more exposed to economic trends than gold and bitcoin.
I'm more worried about economic growth than I am about
rising interest in fiata edges. Therefore I lean more towards
gold and specifically towards bitcoin. But look, I think all
(14:06):
of those hard assets, I think the tide is rising
on all of them. I think investors are fed up
with what's going on in fiat currency. You see a
bid for gold, silver, bitcoin, other metals, I think that
is a rising tide across the board.
Speaker 2 (14:19):
Well, we haven't seen TOKENI silver just yet. I'm looking
at SLV there. This is just the ETF. But if
you look at XAET obviously Paxos G which is gold
on Paxos, all of these are going to open up
in terms of access to a lot more traders.
Speaker 1 (14:39):
So what is your theory on Token I silver.
Speaker 2 (14:42):
Do you think Paxos is going to pull the trigger
on this or you think we may get another player
coming in?
Speaker 6 (14:46):
Oh, great question. I'm sure somebody is looking at it. Look,
all those charts are screaming that investors want exposure to
these hard assets and they want them twenty four to seven,
three sixty five.
Speaker 4 (14:56):
I think we're going to tokenize everything. So who's going
to do it? I don't know.
Speaker 6 (15:00):
Maybe it's Pacso's great company. I think they'll be successful
in that market. The thing for investors to look at
it thirty thousand foot view is each of those assets
is up into the right. They're telling you something and
they're telling it loudly. The thing that unites those stories.
The best looking charts in finance are all hard assets.
Speaker 4 (15:21):
They're all doing that.
Speaker 6 (15:22):
What they're telling you is there's rise and concern about
fiat debasement that I think is going to accelerate, and
you know, pick your horse, Paul, but they're may be
all going to win at this derby.
Speaker 1 (15:33):
Well, it's good diversification.
Speaker 2 (15:34):
I think in general, you look at what really what
a lot of cash positions are trying to do right now.
To your point, is the debasement side of it. You know,
if you look at that argument, you need a lot
more alternatives because it does start to get away from
the US dollar, at least to a certain extent. Speaking
of diversification, I'm looking also at the Web three side
(15:56):
of bitwise, Web three ETF and I'm looking at top
ten holdings here. Roadblocks catches my attention very quickly, just
because they've continued to have really positive news. Do you
think they are going to enable Web three functionality on Roadblocks?
Speaker 4 (16:14):
You know, I do.
Speaker 6 (16:15):
Ultimately that's been the direction of that business since it's founding, right,
It's sort of been occupying that world. It understands that
ownership is important, it understands that decentralization is important. I
know a lot of people look at something like that.
It's like Roadblocks, a gaming company at the top of
a Web three Remember that if you look at Internet investments,
one of the best performing Internet investments of all time,
(16:37):
far better than say Google, over the last twenty years,
has been Netflix. Right, they're different ways to monetize these
new capabilities. There were different ways to monetize the Internet.
There are different ways to monetize Web three gaming is
one of them companies doing extraordinarily well.
Speaker 2 (16:53):
Do you think what are we talking about, Matt? Is
it next year maybe twenty seven?
Speaker 1 (16:58):
What do you feel like? I mean is do you
think that we're going to.
Speaker 2 (17:01):
See companies like roadblocks barreling toward making some major decision
just because of what's happening in the administrative side.
Speaker 6 (17:09):
It's a good question. We're clearing the regulatory roadblocks. It
depends on the pathway toward that. These things always take longer.
You know the old quip about people overestimate what can
change in one year and underestimate what can change in years.
Speaker 4 (17:26):
I think that applies here.
Speaker 6 (17:28):
But the market recognizes it before the fundamentals arrive. That's
the way markets work, and so I think you can
look at the performance if you pull up a chart
of that etf B web versus the Nasdaq one hundred
cues over the last couple of years. What you'll see
is that the market is recognizing the performance of these
extraordinary companies, and one will show up in the earnings
(17:51):
and the new announcements.
Speaker 4 (17:52):
Again, it will take time, but it's starting to move
in that direction.
Speaker 2 (17:55):
Listen, there is a gauntlet being thrown down by mister
Kevin O'Leary, and the gauntlet is he thinks he's going
to win in this new area of tokenized assets that
are mostly collectible. As you look at secure, which is
there ne collectibles thing? Why wouldn't bitwise launch something like this.
I'm thinking you guys could do this.
Speaker 4 (18:15):
I love it.
Speaker 6 (18:16):
I love the suggestion. Bill has is looking increasingly at
what we can do on chain.
Speaker 4 (18:22):
I will leave it at that. I don't know if
I'm going head to head with mister wonderful, but.
Speaker 2 (18:27):
Wonder shine that's what he's claiming. I got a clip
for you just to understand, because you got to listen
to this clip.
Speaker 1 (18:32):
It's a good one. Here, Matt, let's go to that one.
Speaker 4 (18:34):
I want an index.
Speaker 5 (18:35):
I want el soaprimo, grown men weep when they see
them kind of cards. Since that news broke, I didn't
realize how big that news was going to be. Is
that where you get the majority of the appreciation. Turns
out that's true. I don't want any crap. I want
El Supremo. I'm going to release this index pretty soon.
I think grown men are going to weep when they
(18:56):
see this. Bring on the competition, bring it on, just try.
It's going to become the gold standard. It should be
valued daily, just like a portfolio of watches is. I
don't want to be that rich asshole that hoardes these things.
I want people to be able to see them. And
just like I share my watches, I always have two
watches on.
Speaker 1 (19:13):
I share them all right.
Speaker 2 (19:15):
So there's a Leary, you know, you can kind of
see he's having fun with this, getting into an index
with wonder Shine. So I'm just wondering. I think we're
going to see more of these coming out, especially with collectibles.
The ability of on chain assets rdba's are going to
be a big part of this in the future. So
I'm thinking bit wise is going to be here.
Speaker 4 (19:33):
Man, I love it. I love it. Well, we'll see.
I gotta get my first watch.
Speaker 6 (19:38):
I'm watchless, so that one.
Speaker 4 (19:42):
All right.
Speaker 2 (19:43):
Matt Listen has been great having you on today.
Speaker 1 (19:45):
Thanks so much.
Speaker 2 (19:46):
We're watching bitwise very closely. You guys are making some moves,
so thanks for coming in. I appreciate it.
Speaker 4 (19:50):
Thanks, Paul, appreciate it.
Speaker 2 (19:52):
You bet see you all right, You guys, get into
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Speaker 4 (20:09):
Join.
Speaker 2 (20:10):
It's free, and then of course you'll get another email
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you next time right here on The Paul Baron Show.
Today. It's going to be a good one.
Speaker 2 (00:01):
I'm going to have Matt Hogan on so you don't
want to miss it. My name is Paul Bareer. Welcome
back into the show. Let's get into it. I do
want to thank our sponsor, and that is coinbase, where
you guys can get into your crypto journey, very easy
to set up an account over there. Future of money
is here, and actually they have a new program and
that is that right there, a credit card that you
can get into early access up to four percent back
(00:22):
on every purchase, so that in itself is kind of
a built in savings account.
Speaker 1 (00:27):
Check it out.
Speaker 2 (00:28):
Use our link down in the in the description. I
want to lead off here before we get in with
Matt Hogan a clip because a lot of people are
trying to figure out how and why this market dip
started to happen and what is it going to look
like to come out of it.
Speaker 1 (00:43):
Let's go to that clip. The macro hedge funds.
Speaker 3 (00:44):
You ask how they really trade crypto, They use it
as a release file for macro events. Right, how many
times have you seen a geopolitical situation happen on a
Friday night? Post to close?
Speaker 4 (00:53):
Right?
Speaker 3 (00:53):
And then you know, by Monday everything setul bitcoin is
going up five percent, down four percent, right by token
is securities and in equities, you open up the world
of twenty four seven trading. Nonetheless, I think there's definitely
tom on there for sure.
Speaker 2 (01:06):
That was it Wasmant Naim, head of assets over at coinbase,
And I want to bring in Matt Hogan, as you
guys know there he is Matt Hogan CIO.
Speaker 1 (01:16):
Bitwise. Great to have you back on the show.
Speaker 4 (01:18):
Glad to be here, Paul, Good to see you.
Speaker 1 (01:20):
So when you look.
Speaker 2 (01:21):
At what what Uzma was talking about, this you know
this twenty four to seven volatility nature of crypto. You
see these wild swings on major assets. You look at
ETFs and you look at securities. Do you think we
could see that in the future flowing into how strategies
are being done on crypto itself, translating over to traditional markets.
Speaker 5 (01:45):
Oh.
Speaker 6 (01:45):
Absolutely. Crypto is sort of your window into the future.
It is showing you what twenty four to seven three
sixty five trading means. It means you can react instantaneously
to events. But one thing that I think people need
to realize is it doesn't repeal human nature. You see
a lot of these big exaggerated move Paul on the
weekend when the markets are less liquid than they are
(02:07):
during the week right, And that's familiar maybe to traditional
equity investors who are used to seeing exaggerated moves in
after hours trading. As an investor, you should look at
those moves skeptically. They don't necessarily reflect changing fundamentals in
the space. For example, there's nothing to change fundamentally about
crypto this week. The government still printing debt, the existing
(02:29):
financial infrastructure is still extraordinarily slow and inefficient. What happened
was the market entered it's a liquid period on Sunday night,
and there were some cascading liquidations. It's just a feature
of this market you have to be ready for for sure.
Speaker 2 (02:44):
Jim Kramer, he's getting a little cold feed. I think
I don't know that he's ready or maybe traditional markets
are ready for this. So the fact that we could
see these kinds of wild swings around a three sixty
five twenty four to seven market that's coming down the pipeline,
so I think they're going to have to get in
the game and understand this is maybe the future now.
Speaker 1 (03:06):
So here we are.
Speaker 4 (03:07):
Yeah, that's right. I mean, you have to change your ecosystem.
Speaker 6 (03:09):
You need trainers who are available to react twenty four
to seven, You need algorithms that are able to react
twenty four to seven. You have to understand liquidity and
illiquidity periods. But there's no turning this back. Right, the
long term future is twenty four to seven, three sixty
five global trading across all assets. That's what the world wants,
that's what the world will get. Crypto is just giving
(03:31):
you a glimpse into what that future means, the good
parts and the bad parts, the release valve and maybe
the Sunday night illiquidity. And it's good to train up
on that while crypto is still young.
Speaker 1 (03:43):
Yeah for sure.
Speaker 2 (03:44):
Well, speaking of kind of this direction of where we're going,
I'm looking at your spot ETHTF right here continuing to climb.
Speaker 1 (03:53):
So there you go. That's a good example. Just you know,
if you're.
Speaker 2 (03:55):
Looking at Holdling and you think about long term investment strategies,
this is kind of the structure I think a lot
of people are looking at right now when you look
at where eth is, where bitcoin is in terms of ETFs,
and then the potential of a lot more ETFs. I
was looking at your article right here, et Palooza. I
(04:16):
love this one. What do you see coming down the
pipe that's going to move the needle in a big
way for investors, especially around these ETFs.
Speaker 6 (04:27):
Yeah, they're probably two things to look out for. One
is what I mentioned in this article, which is the
SEC has cleared the way for a large number.
Speaker 4 (04:35):
Of crypto ETFs to launch.
Speaker 6 (04:36):
Right now, we just have bitcoin in eth I suspect
in a few months we'll have ETFs on a dozen assets.
In six months, we may have ETFs on twenty five assets.
So you're going to have this ETF exposure to a
large number of assets. The other thing that's happening behind
the scenes, maybe fewer headlines, is that national accounts are
(04:57):
finally approving spot bitcoin e so folks like Wells, Fargo, Brugan, Stanley,
and Merrill Lynch. So you have this this second wave
of growth that I think we're going to see in
those major assets just when the minor assets hit that first.
Speaker 4 (05:11):
Wave of growth. Both means more investment capital coming into
the crypto market.
Speaker 5 (05:16):
You know.
Speaker 6 (05:16):
The World Bank says that institutional and professional investors control
one hundred trillion dollars in assets If you think they're
going to end up five percent allocated to crypto, that's
five trillion dollars that needs to come into the market.
That's actually bigger than the entire market cap of crypto.
The market cap of crypto right now is just to
shade under four trillion dollars. So I think over the
(05:37):
next ten years you're going to have multiple trillions of
dollars of capital that needs to allocate to crypto. The
ETFs have done a little bit, they've done exceptionally well,
the fastest growing ETFs of all time, but there's still
maybe just a few toes in the water pole from.
Speaker 4 (05:53):
Where we're going to go.
Speaker 1 (05:54):
Yeah, you think about toes in the water.
Speaker 2 (05:55):
This is kind of an interesting trend right here Google trends,
Crypto ETF was the search term.
Speaker 1 (06:01):
You can kind of see it.
Speaker 2 (06:02):
Guys, this is pretty significant as we start to move
into it. The early stage of the Bitcoin ETF. I
think help kind of dive into that. But if you
look at just where this is going, Solana is really
the breakout query that's going. Obviously you mentioned the Solana
ETF as being one of the potentials here.
Speaker 1 (06:23):
Break that down for me.
Speaker 2 (06:25):
Do you think that it will be the most affected
by these digital asset treasuries.
Speaker 1 (06:29):
How does this play out for you guys.
Speaker 6 (06:32):
Yeah, it's a great, great question. You know, I wrote
another piece called Solana Season. I think Q four is
setting up to be an exceptional period for Solana. You
have the combination of three ingredients coming together. One, you
have the expectation of a large number of Solana etf
launching that means flows into those ETFs there's the article.
(06:52):
At the same time, you have these digital asset treasury
companies run by some of the biggest names in finance,
right Kyle's Somani of multi Coin, Dan morehead of Pantera.
These are ogs of crypto launching Solana specific strategies. That's
more buying of Solana. And then at the third point,
you just have this explosion of interest in stable coins
(07:15):
and tokenization. Some of that's benefited. The other major beneficiary
is Solana. You put all those three things together, it's
one of the best setups for a crypto asset that
I've seen in the last five plus years. I think
it could be if they all come together, an extraordinary
Q four for Solana.
Speaker 2 (07:35):
Well, I think that's what everybody's looking at and timing wise,
You're exactly right. I just look at the ether reserves
right now continuing to climb up. If you just look
at the explosion that we've seen in terms of the
digital asset treasury side of things, Solana Avalanche is coming
out to market with one. Do you feel that the
data companies have a little bit more effect on the
(07:57):
current price of the asset? I was looking at just
a percentage of supply held right now by publicly traded company.
I'm looking at Solana obviously had that big jump. We've
also seen just situations with ethan Bitcoin that have continued
to go up.
Speaker 1 (08:12):
What would be your opinion there?
Speaker 6 (08:14):
Yeah, I think of it sort of like the tortoise
and the hair pole. The dat companies are like the tortoises.
They jump into the market raised debt and buy one
hundred million dollars slugs, two hundred million dollars slugs, half
a trillion dollars, half a billion dollar slugs. The ETFs
are more like the hair incrementally each day buying ten, twenty, thirty, forty,
(08:35):
which matters more.
Speaker 4 (08:36):
It depends on your timeframe.
Speaker 6 (08:38):
Ultimately, the ETFs are going to be the bigger avenue
but these digital asseet treasury companies can do step function
purchases that really dictate the market. I think keeping that
tortoise and hair analogy in mind will help people think
about these two approaches.
Speaker 2 (08:54):
I was noticing this tweet of yours, Bank of England
proposing capital controls on citizens.
Speaker 1 (08:59):
This is crazy.
Speaker 2 (09:01):
I admissed this to where they would limit the amount
of stable coins that you potentially could hold. You're kind
of is this a bullish sign or maybe a bar
I think this might be a bullish sign.
Speaker 1 (09:14):
Actually, what's your opinion?
Speaker 6 (09:16):
It's a bullish sign. It means that they're worried enough
about stable coins, which remember two years ago you couldn't
get anyone in a suit to take a stable coin seriously.
And now Bank of England is worried enough that they're
thinking of putting fundamental restrictions on the economic freedom of
their citizens to access these things because it may oh
(09:36):
pull money out of the banking sector that's taking advantage
of them. It's an incredible sign of weakness. Ultimately, it
won't stand. Walls can keep in water for a while,
but it will find ways to spill out. I think
it just shows you how powerful this stable coin narrative
is that it has the Bank of England quaking in
its boots.
Speaker 4 (09:56):
I mean that is a big step from where we
were a few years ago.
Speaker 1 (09:59):
Oh yeah, huge.
Speaker 2 (10:00):
If you just look at what's happening in Europe, I
anticipate we're going to see a lot of people kind
of moving in that more decentralized fashion, especially around trying
to hold you know, wealth, which is the key here
for sure.
Speaker 4 (10:14):
That's right.
Speaker 6 (10:14):
We've been trapping people in their own geography and forcing
them to have no choice in their currency. Bitcoins started
to break that you didn't need to be government based,
you could hold something that's independent of that. Stable Coins
are another way you don't need to be local currency.
You could be in the dollar, which is the cleanest
dirty shirt in the fiat currency world. From my perspective,
(10:36):
more choice is better for investors, it's empowering for individuals,
and these sort of last gas efforts from people like
the Bank of England shows you that the time is
now that they're really ascended, that they're globally important.
Speaker 2 (10:48):
Speaking about the time as now, we've been doing some
research on bit wise, so I'm looking at returns, which
has been you know, absolutely amazing. And look at the
fund holdings here and you know, you look at just
the top four assets there, Bitcoin Ethereum, XRP, Solana, Cardonald's
(11:09):
even got a position chainey Avalanche. With everything that's happening
with avas, what we're seeing in in general, with some
of these assets, is it time to rebalance on this
or do you feel, hey, no, this is Paul, this
is this is the lock.
Speaker 1 (11:22):
We're going to go with this.
Speaker 4 (11:23):
Well, I love the question.
Speaker 5 (11:25):
You know.
Speaker 6 (11:25):
The funny thing about looking at this chart, this list
of assets in our index, the bit wise ten is
depending on what day you asked me, I might.
Speaker 4 (11:33):
Be more excited about one in one asset or the other.
Speaker 6 (11:37):
The way I think about this portfolio for most investors
is that this is your core. This is a market
cap weighted portfolio. It owns assets in direct proportion to
their size in the market, and that's your core. And
then most people will want a satellite that lets them overweight.
You may look at what Scaramucci is doing with the
Avalanche Digital Asset Treasury Company and say that's going to
(11:59):
be hot.
Speaker 4 (12:00):
I want to overweight Avalanche.
Speaker 6 (12:02):
You may look at what's happening in Solana Hogan says,
it's Solana season.
Speaker 4 (12:06):
I want to overweight Solana. We love that.
Speaker 6 (12:09):
But I think that index, which is like the S
and P five hundred, can be your core and then
people can over and underweight from there.
Speaker 4 (12:15):
That's what I do with my own personal portfolio. I
think a lot of people will as well.
Speaker 2 (12:19):
This is like the Matt Hogan's twenty greatest hits. Today
I'm looking at I'm looking at another one of your
tweets here, gold over silver and then Bitcoin over gold.
Now at the same time, we just had one of
the top guys I think in gold out there, Andy Sheckman.
He was on the show last week and he and
(12:39):
I were talking about it. He went the other direction.
He went the direction of silver because he was saying,
this forty five year breakout was absolutely insane. How would
you position right now with silver pumping gold shirt? Yes,
all time high? How would you play this out? I'm
just kind of curious of your transition.
Speaker 6 (12:59):
I love that quies and it goes back almost to
what we were talking about earlier. It's a matter of timeframe.
I was speaking from a history of money perspective. I
read a great book, The Secret History of Gold It
talked about why gold was money more so than silver.
One of the primary reasons was it was more dense
and easier to move. You could store a lot more
wealth in a small amount of gold than you could
(13:21):
in silver. Put a billion dollars in silver, it might
sink your ship. The reason bitcoin over gold is you
can store an infinite amount of wealth no space. With bitcoin,
you can move it around at the speed of light.
That's why I think bitcoin is ultimately ascended. Ultimately will
be a bigger asset than even gold, which will remain
bigger than silver, because it's better on those core monetary statistics.
(13:44):
From or characteristics from a short term perspective, I don't know.
Silver is more exposed to economic trends than gold and bitcoin.
I'm more worried about economic growth than I am about
rising interest in fiata edges. Therefore I lean more towards
gold and specifically towards bitcoin. But look, I think all
(14:06):
of those hard assets, I think the tide is rising
on all of them. I think investors are fed up
with what's going on in fiat currency. You see a
bid for gold, silver, bitcoin, other metals, I think that
is a rising tide across the board.
Speaker 2 (14:19):
Well, we haven't seen TOKENI silver just yet. I'm looking
at SLV there. This is just the ETF. But if
you look at XAET obviously Paxos G which is gold
on Paxos, all of these are going to open up
in terms of access to a lot more traders.
Speaker 1 (14:39):
So what is your theory on Token I silver.
Speaker 2 (14:42):
Do you think Paxos is going to pull the trigger
on this or you think we may get another player
coming in?
Speaker 6 (14:46):
Oh, great question. I'm sure somebody is looking at it. Look,
all those charts are screaming that investors want exposure to
these hard assets and they want them twenty four to seven,
three sixty five.
Speaker 4 (14:56):
I think we're going to tokenize everything. So who's going
to do it? I don't know.
Speaker 6 (15:00):
Maybe it's Pacso's great company. I think they'll be successful
in that market. The thing for investors to look at
it thirty thousand foot view is each of those assets
is up into the right. They're telling you something and
they're telling it loudly. The thing that unites those stories.
The best looking charts in finance are all hard assets.
Speaker 4 (15:21):
They're all doing that.
Speaker 6 (15:22):
What they're telling you is there's rise and concern about
fiat debasement that I think is going to accelerate, and
you know, pick your horse, Paul, but they're may be
all going to win at this derby.
Speaker 1 (15:33):
Well, it's good diversification.
Speaker 2 (15:34):
I think in general, you look at what really what
a lot of cash positions are trying to do right now.
To your point, is the debasement side of it. You know,
if you look at that argument, you need a lot
more alternatives because it does start to get away from
the US dollar, at least to a certain extent. Speaking
of diversification, I'm looking also at the Web three side
(15:56):
of bitwise, Web three ETF and I'm looking at top
ten holdings here. Roadblocks catches my attention very quickly, just
because they've continued to have really positive news. Do you
think they are going to enable Web three functionality on Roadblocks?
Speaker 4 (16:14):
You know, I do.
Speaker 6 (16:15):
Ultimately that's been the direction of that business since it's founding, right,
It's sort of been occupying that world. It understands that
ownership is important, it understands that decentralization is important. I
know a lot of people look at something like that.
It's like Roadblocks, a gaming company at the top of
a Web three Remember that if you look at Internet investments,
one of the best performing Internet investments of all time,
(16:37):
far better than say Google, over the last twenty years,
has been Netflix. Right, they're different ways to monetize these
new capabilities. There were different ways to monetize the Internet.
There are different ways to monetize Web three gaming is
one of them companies doing extraordinarily well.
Speaker 2 (16:53):
Do you think what are we talking about, Matt? Is
it next year maybe twenty seven?
Speaker 1 (16:58):
What do you feel like? I mean is do you
think that we're going to.
Speaker 2 (17:01):
See companies like roadblocks barreling toward making some major decision
just because of what's happening in the administrative side.
Speaker 6 (17:09):
It's a good question. We're clearing the regulatory roadblocks. It
depends on the pathway toward that. These things always take longer.
You know the old quip about people overestimate what can
change in one year and underestimate what can change in years.
Speaker 4 (17:26):
I think that applies here.
Speaker 6 (17:28):
But the market recognizes it before the fundamentals arrive. That's
the way markets work, and so I think you can
look at the performance if you pull up a chart
of that etf B web versus the Nasdaq one hundred
cues over the last couple of years. What you'll see
is that the market is recognizing the performance of these
extraordinary companies, and one will show up in the earnings
(17:51):
and the new announcements.
Speaker 4 (17:52):
Again, it will take time, but it's starting to move
in that direction.
Speaker 2 (17:55):
Listen, there is a gauntlet being thrown down by mister
Kevin O'Leary, and the gauntlet is he thinks he's going
to win in this new area of tokenized assets that
are mostly collectible. As you look at secure, which is
there ne collectibles thing? Why wouldn't bitwise launch something like this.
I'm thinking you guys could do this.
Speaker 4 (18:15):
I love it.
Speaker 6 (18:16):
I love the suggestion. Bill has is looking increasingly at
what we can do on chain.
Speaker 4 (18:22):
I will leave it at that. I don't know if
I'm going head to head with mister wonderful, but.
Speaker 2 (18:27):
Wonder shine that's what he's claiming. I got a clip
for you just to understand, because you got to listen
to this clip.
Speaker 1 (18:32):
It's a good one. Here, Matt, let's go to that one.
Speaker 4 (18:34):
I want an index.
Speaker 5 (18:35):
I want el soaprimo, grown men weep when they see
them kind of cards. Since that news broke, I didn't
realize how big that news was going to be. Is
that where you get the majority of the appreciation. Turns
out that's true. I don't want any crap. I want
El Supremo. I'm going to release this index pretty soon.
I think grown men are going to weep when they
(18:56):
see this. Bring on the competition, bring it on, just try.
It's going to become the gold standard. It should be
valued daily, just like a portfolio of watches is. I
don't want to be that rich asshole that hoardes these things.
I want people to be able to see them. And
just like I share my watches, I always have two
watches on.
Speaker 1 (19:13):
I share them all right.
Speaker 2 (19:15):
So there's a Leary, you know, you can kind of
see he's having fun with this, getting into an index
with wonder Shine. So I'm just wondering. I think we're
going to see more of these coming out, especially with collectibles.
The ability of on chain assets rdba's are going to
be a big part of this in the future. So
I'm thinking bit wise is going to be here.
Speaker 4 (19:33):
Man, I love it. I love it. Well, we'll see.
I gotta get my first watch.
Speaker 6 (19:38):
I'm watchless, so that one.
Speaker 4 (19:42):
All right.
Speaker 2 (19:43):
Matt Listen has been great having you on today.
Speaker 1 (19:45):
Thanks so much.
Speaker 2 (19:46):
We're watching bitwise very closely. You guys are making some moves,
so thanks for coming in. I appreciate it.
Speaker 4 (19:50):
Thanks, Paul, appreciate it.
Speaker 2 (19:52):
You bet see you all right, You guys, get into
the Diamond Circle. If you're not in right now. It's
a great place to get more content from us. We
do some additional research over there that you guys can get,
and it's super easy to join. We always leave a
link down below in these videos, so click that link.
It'll take you over to the website.
Speaker 4 (20:09):
Join.
Speaker 2 (20:10):
It's free, and then of course you'll get another email
coming out to you. It's kind of dropped some of
this stuff. Also, if you're not following me out there
on X do that it's at Paul Baron. We'll catch
you next time right here on The Paul Baron Show.
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