November 24, 2025 • 17 mins
Burner Terminal lets merchants accept stablecoin payments from mobile cryptocurrency wallets and Burners.
~This episode is sponsored by Tangem~
Tangem ➜ https://bit.ly/TangemPBN
Use Code: "PBN" for Additional Discounts!
Cameron Robertson, Co Founder & CEO - Burner
Burner Terminal ➜ https://bit.ly/BurnerTerminal
Burner Card Wallet ➜ https://bit.ly/BurnerWallet
00:00 Intro
00:08 Sponsor: Tangem
00:35 Merchant Stablecoin Use Exploding
01:50 Tap To Pay vs QR Codes
02:24 Burner Wallet
02:44 Total Market Size
03:50 Burner Terminal for Merchants
06:49 Square/Clover vs Burner Fees
07:53 Stablecoin Yields for Merchants
09:00 Free Cards as Gift Cards
09:44 What Happens if you Lose Burner?
10:29 Supported Blockchains
11:09 Why Flexa Payments?
12:55 Roadmap
14:40 USDC Dead?
15:39 Bitcoin for Payments Narrative Dead?
17:04 outro
#Crypto #Bitcoin #Ethereum
~Massive Crypto Payments Catalyst is Here🚀Burner Merchant Terminals🚨 INTERVIEW~
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~This episode is sponsored by Tangem~
Tangem ➜ https://bit.ly/TangemPBN
Use Code: "PBN" for Additional Discounts!
Cameron Robertson, Co Founder & CEO - Burner
Burner Terminal ➜ https://bit.ly/BurnerTerminal
Burner Card Wallet ➜ https://bit.ly/BurnerWallet
00:00 Intro
00:08 Sponsor: Tangem
00:35 Merchant Stablecoin Use Exploding
01:50 Tap To Pay vs QR Codes
02:24 Burner Wallet
02:44 Total Market Size
03:50 Burner Terminal for Merchants
06:49 Square/Clover vs Burner Fees
07:53 Stablecoin Yields for Merchants
09:00 Free Cards as Gift Cards
09:44 What Happens if you Lose Burner?
10:29 Supported Blockchains
11:09 Why Flexa Payments?
12:55 Roadmap
14:40 USDC Dead?
15:39 Bitcoin for Payments Narrative Dead?
17:04 outro
#Crypto #Bitcoin #Ethereum
~Massive Crypto Payments Catalyst is Here🚀Burner Merchant Terminals🚨 INTERVIEW~
⎺⎺⎺⎺⎺⎺⎺⎺⎺⎺⎺⎺⎺⎺⎺⎺⎺⎺⎺⎺⎺⎺⎺⎺⎺⎺⎺⎺⎺⎺⎺⎺⎺⎺⎺⎺⎺⎺⎺⎺⎺⎺⎺⎺⎺⎺⎺⎺⎺⎺⎺⎺⎺⎺⎺⎺⎺⎺⎺⎺⎺⎺⎺⎺⎺⎺⎺⎺⎺⎺⎺⎺
Join our community!
Barron Market Edge (FREE)➜ https://www.paulbarronnetwork.com/barron-market-edge-signup
Private Telegram Group (FREE) ➜ https://t.me/+nISqoMxrok40NTcx
Subscribe on YouTube ✅ https://bit.ly/PBNYoutubeSubscribe
X/Twitter 📱 http://bit.ly/PBNtwitter
Get official PBN merch! ➜ https://merch.paulbarronnetwork.com/
~ The Best Self Custody Wallet ➜ https://tangem.com/en/ Use Code PBN for Additional Discounts!
~ The Best Crypto Exchange ➜ Coinbase, get up to $200 in crypto - coinbase-consumer.sjv.io/BARRON
~ Looking for the best tax havens for Crypto? Free Month with iTrust Capital ➜ Use PROMO CODE - PAUL BARRON https://rebrand.ly/PAULBARRON
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
One of the big things that will make crypto zoom
is of course how it integrates into payments and point
of sale. We're going to talk about that today. We're
going to have a special guest. Don't miss it. Let's
just jump right into the show. I do want to
thank our sponsor, and that is Tangum. You guys can
jump over and get self custody going over on tangum
dot com. It's very easy to set up over there.
They've got a lot of new stuff coming out as well.
(00:21):
I won't spoil it for you guys, but I will
tell you this. There is a lot of new things
happening and we'll be releasing it here on the channel
with a Tangum interview. So now is the time to
get your self custy wallet. Use our link down below
to get started. All right, So we're going to have
a guest today. We're gonna be talking about point of
sale devices and why this is so important to crypto
(00:43):
in general. Finance pay merchants now surge past twenty million merchants.
This of course is all brewing as stable coin use
is starting to soar. This will start to make its
way into the United States in a big way. I
want to go to a clip because this is where
we're going to see possibly merchant stable coin adoption starting
to explode.
Speaker 2 (01:03):
Take a look every fortune five hundred merchant that accepts
digital assets. It's powered by Flexa, except for maybe one
that might be Tesla. So today, I mean around where
we are, you can go Chipotle and get lunch.
Speaker 3 (01:14):
Let's go base pay app.
Speaker 4 (01:15):
We're going to use the Chippotle miniapp in this search.
Speaker 2 (01:19):
Here we go, so now we're going to use the
Chipotle miniapp fifty. Yeah, dude, ecolutely, the most important thing
we needed to happen is happening.
Speaker 4 (01:30):
That's the Genius Act.
Speaker 2 (01:31):
It's been fixed since twenty nineteen, and we got to
keep saying that as loudly as possible.
Speaker 5 (01:36):
In Amasia, the digital assets are gaming serious ground. All
the institutions that we had survey, fifty six percent of
them have already been engaged in doing stable coin projects,
and forty percent of them up highlighting or planning some
sort of stablecoin related projects already.
Speaker 1 (01:51):
That, of course, was Daniel McCabe of Flexa. We've had
the Flexa team on here before. One of the problems
that I think existed is this whole our code issue,
which eventually was resolved, and of course this was tweeted
out by Daniel flexa partnering with Berner, which is who
we're going to be having on the show here in
a second. But the Flexi terminal now portable cardless path.
(02:12):
This of course is good because it's going to be
tapped to pay, which charge starts to change the dynamics
of how crypto is going to be used. I want
to go to a quick example of this, and then
we'll bring in our guests.
Speaker 6 (02:24):
Take a look time of year when everyone gives you
money Berner, load it, back it up, take it with you.
Crypto you can gift like cash.
Speaker 1 (02:34):
This is the Burner wallet. That was a card that
we just showed there. And I want to bring on
our guest today, who is Cameron Robertson, who is the
co founder and CEO over at Berner.
Speaker 3 (02:44):
Great to have you, Thanks, Paul.
Speaker 4 (02:45):
Great to be here.
Speaker 3 (02:46):
All right.
Speaker 1 (02:47):
So Cameron, I know you're at devconnex so down in
Argentina making a lot of connections out there, hopefully for Berner,
and let's kind of go into it because there's a
lot happening around the adoption side for using crypto in
the payment ecosystem now with clarity Daniel even mentioned it
is that almost every Fortune five hundred brand is going
(03:09):
to have their own stable coin. This will start to
really kind of accelerate things going. When you look at
that and where you guys are. First of all, how
many users do you guys have today?
Speaker 7 (03:20):
Yeah, we've distributed around thirty to forty thousand Burner cards
across ecosystem, all.
Speaker 3 (03:24):
Right, thirty to forty thousand.
Speaker 1 (03:26):
What do you think the total market looks like for
Burner as a whole, Because I know this is an
open platform, give me a kind of a framework of
the tam.
Speaker 7 (03:35):
We think about Burner with respect to prepaid cards, and
so the prepaid card market is massive, approaching a trillion
dollars depending on how you slice it.
Speaker 4 (03:43):
But it's a pretty big market. So I think that's
what Berner plays in.
Speaker 7 (03:46):
Obviously it's a self custody product too, but I think
that prepaid is just a much bigger space for us
to play in.
Speaker 3 (03:52):
Which I would agree.
Speaker 1 (03:53):
I think the gift card side of this is going
to be pretty big, even though I think the terminal
side is equally important because it will start to translate
to prepaid cards as well as you get into that
this of course is your terminal. When I saw this
the first time, I said, oh, this is going to
be quite interesting if this starts to compete with the
titans out there, some of the Titans, of course, that
(04:15):
we've had and talked about before. This kind of shows
you an example of how the Burner card works with
your terminal. How do you guys line up against someone
like a Square or a Clover, who pretty much dominate
point of sale terminals right now in retail.
Speaker 7 (04:28):
We have a lot of similar features in the sense
that we can still process traditional credit cards, so we
have a seamless processing between crypto card like a Burner
and credit cards, but we don't offer sort of the
full back of restaurant experience that you might get with
a Clover. We're not going to be printing out receipts
for orders.
Speaker 4 (04:48):
Or things like that.
Speaker 7 (04:50):
So we think a lot of merchants will actually have
a dual terminal approach at launch. They'll have their big
Clover system, their Toe system, and then Burner will basically
be like a new form of cash, so they'll be
able to mark as cash in their existing terminal, entered
it on burner and tap to pay right there.
Speaker 1 (05:07):
So speed is still there. And I think for a
lot of people thinking well, that's not going to work.
In reality, Uber used to do that because before it
was integrated into the back of house you had what
I used to call is the tablet farm. You had
tablets from all the different third party delivery similar to that.
You think that's so your point is is that this
is one adjacent system looks very very clean in terms
(05:29):
of the device, its size, what's the size of those?
Speaker 3 (05:32):
Do you have one of those on you?
Speaker 7 (05:33):
Unfortunately, my colleague is demoing with the sole prototype that
we have. It's pretty small. It's about four inches across.
And yeah, I think you know, to be honest, there's
also a whole different category of business which is a
cash focused business. Yes, they may have an existing little
receipt printer pus. This is a perfect replacement for that.
(05:54):
You can drop it in. We're gonna have a cradle
you can mount it to. And so if you see
the business is to say, hey, we prefer cash, Mom
and pops food trucks, anyone, anyone who likes to be
in that space. Businesses that are regulated who might not
be able to get bank accounts. That's really going to
be our initial target market.
Speaker 3 (06:13):
How quickly do you think this can scale?
Speaker 7 (06:15):
So I think what we have is sort of a
two sided market problem in the sense where we're both
growing burners.
Speaker 4 (06:22):
As well as the terminals themselves.
Speaker 7 (06:25):
But with terminal, we're going to work through more traditional
partners who sell merchant processing services to customers in order
to get it out there, and so we're not just
going to be, i would say, trying to sell a
purely crypto product. We can say, hey, we're going to
offer you the same credit card processing that you've had
before in a reasonably priced, easy to use form factor,
(06:48):
and then we trojan horse the cryptocide into that.
Speaker 1 (06:50):
All right, So how does that work in comparison to
the transaction fees? If you look at Square and Clover
as an example here of the transaction rate, they kind
of lock in because they're giving the devices most of
the time for free on these point of sales because
they're getting back revenue from these transaction rates. Where do
you guys fall in this, because my understanding is this
(07:12):
going to be either low cost or no.
Speaker 7 (07:13):
Cost, right exactly? So on the stable coin processing side.
We haven't disclosed the rates formally, but we anticipate if
if the merchant is receiving stable coins and they're willing
to stay in those stable coins, it'll be effectively free.
There may be in certain cases gas charges depending on
the network that the person is paying on, but there
might be options to charge that back.
Speaker 4 (07:33):
To the user as opposed to the merchant.
Speaker 7 (07:35):
So really we're going to focus on the off ramping fee,
and the off ramping fee is going to be much
much less than traditional merchant processing fees. You know, think
in the realm of one percent or less, so sorry,
versus three percent or two point five.
Speaker 1 (07:50):
The off ramping you're saying one percent if you wanted
to come out, But if they kept it in there,
would they.
Speaker 3 (07:56):
Be able to earn yield on it?
Speaker 1 (07:58):
Do you guys, are you planning to do anything like
that to where maybe the merchant could I mean, because
there's a handful of people out there that are doing
that right now.
Speaker 7 (08:06):
Yeah, we've been thinking about sort of a bigger product
there to make it easier for merchants to manage their
cash flow to retain some of it and earn yield.
I think depending on the nature of the merchant. A
lot of businesses cash businesses, they have to.
Speaker 4 (08:20):
Have the money go out the door right away.
Speaker 7 (08:21):
But for those businesses that might want to hold funds
because they're seasonal and they need to you know, be
paying out their employees in those down months and then
they have their you know, other Black Friday days, that
product would work really well for them.
Speaker 4 (08:37):
We're also thinking of all sorts of other DeFi products.
Speaker 7 (08:39):
You know, the moment that we're on to the crypto rails,
we can start to offer things, you know, possibly as
interesting as lending and extending them credit lines based on
the amount of funds that they're passing through the terminal.
Speaker 3 (08:50):
Kind of like a firm.
Speaker 1 (08:51):
And you know some of the companies and I know
a Stripe they're doing that right now where they're trying
to lend to merchants based on their revenue that's coming in.
So that's a and that's a big revenue center for Stripe.
Any plan to make these dis free, especially if you
load them.
Speaker 7 (09:05):
Up, I would say, what we want to do is
we want to figure out that path to loading them
up and that works. That means we have to work
closely with retailers and consider the implications around money transmission licenses,
KYC things like that. So once we get through that,
selling them preloaded is something that we're really interested in,
and then that will allow us to reduce the upfront price. So,
for instance, if you buy what's called an open loop
(09:27):
gift card, you go and get like a Visa Vanilla
gift card, you'll be able to get your one hundred dollars,
but it's probably gonna cost you one oh five to
one oh seven, depending on the retailer. And so that's
probably the price point that we'll play in as well
when they're preloaded. The difference, of course, being that Burner
is a full fledged hardware wallet, not simply a piece
of plastic.
Speaker 3 (09:46):
How does this work if you were to lose your card.
Speaker 7 (09:50):
If you have a singular burner card, it's like cash.
If you lose the card, the funds are gone. If
you're using it as a hardware wallet and you want
to sort greater amounts of value on it, there's a
couple things we suggest. The first is you can duplicate
one burner to a second burner, so you can have
cloned burners because you you know, you've put a whole
(10:10):
ethon it or multiple thousands of dollars. The other thing
that I recommend is I love to use it in
a multi sig, so I attach it to a nosis
safe and now all of a sudden, you know it's
it's just one key amongst several, but it's hardware.
Speaker 4 (10:25):
It's a hard or key as opposed to it off.
Speaker 1 (10:26):
Yeah, it becomes kind of a hardware wallet. In essence,
what blockchains are you guys supporting right now?
Speaker 7 (10:32):
So we have an ethereum variant, and the Ethereum variant
supports main net, base Optimism and Arbitrum. We could support
any EVM chain. We like to keep it constrained because
our whole thing is ease of use. There's other folks
who have built open open apps that interact through our SDKs,
and they actually let you connect to way more chains.
Speaker 4 (10:52):
So they've done all sorts of ltus.
Speaker 7 (10:54):
And then we also have a separate Bitcoin skew and
so the bitcoin skew is is just bitcoin on l
one bitcoin and now that's probably more of a savings
product where you truly are going to gift it and
hold it for a long period of time, as opposed
to a spending product like the Ethereum one.
Speaker 1 (11:10):
So obviously we showed Daniel McCabe of Flexa on there.
We've been tracking Flexa for a long time for many reasons.
We think pos eventually would be one of the killer
apps for crypto payments, will be the killer app. Why
why partner up there? And do you think there's going
to be more partnerships other than just someone like a
(11:31):
Flexa who's already tied into some of these retailers.
Speaker 4 (11:35):
Yeah, we've known the Flexa team for a.
Speaker 7 (11:37):
Long time and they've laid a lot of the ground
a lot of the groundwork, both technically and politically to
make this work. I mean, you know, Danny's out there
on the trail really pushing ahead in front of the
political machinery, saying, hey, we need to make this easier.
So Flexa had no small part in getting things like
(12:02):
Genius through and hopefully Clarity. And so when we said okay,
when we're thinking about payments, you know, Flexa has a
massive community. They've built all this tech out for people
who want to pay at any coin. It would not
make sense for us to go out our own and
attempt to build this, and so it was a natural
coming together of their network of merchants and then sort
(12:24):
of our simple tap to pay capabilities.
Speaker 3 (12:27):
Very nice. Hey, listen.
Speaker 1 (12:28):
The one feature, and I mentioned it earlier, is the
ability to earn yield, okay, and earning yield inside of
something like what we saw with Ave.
Speaker 3 (12:37):
Being announced this week, the new Ave app and card.
Speaker 1 (12:42):
I'm telling you, Cameron, if you get yield on these things,
you're going to have merchants lining up for this thing
and in some sort of way, especially if Clarity goes through,
and it will just a matter of time, So put
that on your number one item for dev if you
don't already have it there for sure. What about you know,
some of the new things that you're going to be
developing for twenty twenty six, anything you can talk to
us about.
Speaker 4 (13:02):
Yeah, I mean, it's funny you mentioned yield.
Speaker 7 (13:04):
We've been hearing that a lot here on the ground
at dev Connect and Argentina. A lot of folks want
to see both yield on the burner cards natively as
well as as you mentioned on the merchant side. And
I think there's a lot of powerful, powerful things we
can do there. You know, we'll see how things land
with Genius and Clarity and what it really means to
be able to pay back the stable coin rewards there.
(13:26):
I think that a lot of the big players have
already been doing that, and our hope is that there
is some more clarity is around that. So I think
that's going to continue. But for twenty twenty six, we're
really excited to get the terminal out the door, so
we're not shipping it yet, probably end of Q one
early Q two, get it into merchant's hands and really
(13:47):
have some sort of established verticals where we see that
it's solving a problem for those merchants. And later in
the year I can say that there's some some interesting
stuff that we're working.
Speaker 4 (13:57):
On that starts to blur the line between traditional credit
card processing and crypto processing.
Speaker 7 (14:04):
We want to make it as easy to use, and
so that might mean crypto takes a back seat to
the traditional rails for a little while so that you
have a more seamless experience with the terminal and the
burner card.
Speaker 1 (14:16):
Well, this is going to be interesting to watch because
I think there is a unique position right now where
we're going to see the Web two Web three conversion
takes some time, so there will be kind of that
hybrid approach I can appreciate that if we get this
kind of protocol going and we start to see every
retailer having I mean, because clarity is coming, every retailer
(14:36):
will be able to do this. Starbucks, McDonald's, you name it,
they're going to have it. They'll have a stable coin
essentially tied. Would that be the Is that the end
of USDC?
Speaker 3 (14:46):
I mean, would you? How would this? Because man, you're.
Speaker 1 (14:50):
Talking about all of retail trillions and trillions of dollars
here in the US alone.
Speaker 7 (14:54):
Right, I Mean, in many ways, we're pretty neutral about that,
because the cool thing about a on tactless tap is
that you can negotiate any.
Speaker 4 (15:03):
Coin for the merchant very easily behind the scenes.
Speaker 7 (15:06):
Versus a QR code, where the user has to have
the intention of knowing what coin they're paying, and so
you have this whole friction of having to seek out
the coin and then knowing, well, Okay, today I'm at
McDonald's and I'm paying and USD MICK versus going to
Walmart and USDW. And so the nice thing is that
the terminal side, we can basically negotiate many cash like
stable coin tokens and resolve all that with just a tap,
(15:29):
and then the user might really not know that what
they're paying with as long as they understand that they
have sort of a cash balance as opposed to their crypto, right,
which is more savings oriented.
Speaker 1 (15:40):
All right, last question to you is there's been a
handful and I mean a handful of retailers that have
gone the route that Steak and Shake did, which was
accepting bitcoin. I'm still a questioning. I question whether or
not this was a successful platform. What I see now
with general crypto payments, especially in USDC or or other
stable coins being really the winner here.
Speaker 3 (16:02):
Do you think that is the.
Speaker 1 (16:04):
End of bitcoin being attempted to be used as a
payment model.
Speaker 7 (16:10):
Oh no, No, I think we're just at the beginning
of way more experimentation there. As you see with Square
rolling out all the Bitcoin support to their terminals. I
think it'd be really interesting to see how many users
pick that up. And I think the big benefit there
is they're going to approach the sort of tax arbitrage
of spend less than six hundred dollars of your bitcoin
and it's capital gain free.
Speaker 4 (16:31):
So I'm intrigued to see that.
Speaker 7 (16:33):
I think there's a lot of folks in the bitcoin
community who believe that lightning and bitcoin payments are are
universally the future. We're taking the bet on stable coins
because it's just easier to understand what you're paying.
Speaker 4 (16:46):
But I can imagine in you know, five years, Well, yeah,
we'll have a.
Speaker 7 (16:52):
Pretty clear picture pretty soon here around what people really
want to hold. And I suspect it's going to be
closer to a dollar and it is to a.
Speaker 3 (17:00):
Sat Yeah, yeah, for sure.
Speaker 1 (17:03):
Hey, Cameron, We're going to be watching this one very
closely as you guys develop out, so we'll probably have
you back on as things start to roll for you
once you get a major I'm just kind of curious
when you guys, and I'll talk to Daniel because I've
been on with Daniel McKay before. If you get a
national retailer that starts to roll out terminals, I'm curious
how that and what that might look like. So that
(17:23):
might be a good time to bring you guys back.
But thanks for coming in today. I appreciate it.
Speaker 4 (17:27):
Yeah, I really appreciate it. Thanks for having me on
the show.
Speaker 3 (17:29):
Paul.
Speaker 1 (17:30):
All right, take care, all right, you guys know what
to do. Make sure and jump into the diamond circle.
It's a great place to get additional content from us,
and of course follow me out there on X at
Paul Baron. We'll catch you next time right here on
The Paul Baron Show.
One of the big things that will make crypto zoom
is of course how it integrates into payments and point
of sale. We're going to talk about that today. We're
going to have a special guest. Don't miss it. Let's
just jump right into the show. I do want to
thank our sponsor, and that is Tangum. You guys can
jump over and get self custody going over on tangum
dot com. It's very easy to set up over there.
They've got a lot of new stuff coming out as well.
(00:21):
I won't spoil it for you guys, but I will
tell you this. There is a lot of new things
happening and we'll be releasing it here on the channel
with a Tangum interview. So now is the time to
get your self custy wallet. Use our link down below
to get started. All right, So we're going to have
a guest today. We're gonna be talking about point of
sale devices and why this is so important to crypto
(00:43):
in general. Finance pay merchants now surge past twenty million merchants.
This of course is all brewing as stable coin use
is starting to soar. This will start to make its
way into the United States in a big way. I
want to go to a clip because this is where
we're going to see possibly merchant stable coin adoption starting
to explode.
Speaker 2 (01:03):
Take a look every fortune five hundred merchant that accepts
digital assets. It's powered by Flexa, except for maybe one
that might be Tesla. So today, I mean around where
we are, you can go Chipotle and get lunch.
Speaker 3 (01:14):
Let's go base pay app.
Speaker 4 (01:15):
We're going to use the Chippotle miniapp in this search.
Speaker 2 (01:19):
Here we go, so now we're going to use the
Chipotle miniapp fifty. Yeah, dude, ecolutely, the most important thing
we needed to happen is happening.
Speaker 4 (01:30):
That's the Genius Act.
Speaker 2 (01:31):
It's been fixed since twenty nineteen, and we got to
keep saying that as loudly as possible.
Speaker 5 (01:36):
In Amasia, the digital assets are gaming serious ground. All
the institutions that we had survey, fifty six percent of
them have already been engaged in doing stable coin projects,
and forty percent of them up highlighting or planning some
sort of stablecoin related projects already.
Speaker 1 (01:51):
That, of course, was Daniel McCabe of Flexa. We've had
the Flexa team on here before. One of the problems
that I think existed is this whole our code issue,
which eventually was resolved, and of course this was tweeted
out by Daniel flexa partnering with Berner, which is who
we're going to be having on the show here in
a second. But the Flexi terminal now portable cardless path.
(02:12):
This of course is good because it's going to be
tapped to pay, which charge starts to change the dynamics
of how crypto is going to be used. I want
to go to a quick example of this, and then
we'll bring in our guests.
Speaker 6 (02:24):
Take a look time of year when everyone gives you
money Berner, load it, back it up, take it with you.
Crypto you can gift like cash.
Speaker 1 (02:34):
This is the Burner wallet. That was a card that
we just showed there. And I want to bring on
our guest today, who is Cameron Robertson, who is the
co founder and CEO over at Berner.
Speaker 3 (02:44):
Great to have you, Thanks, Paul.
Speaker 4 (02:45):
Great to be here.
Speaker 3 (02:46):
All right.
Speaker 1 (02:47):
So Cameron, I know you're at devconnex so down in
Argentina making a lot of connections out there, hopefully for Berner,
and let's kind of go into it because there's a
lot happening around the adoption side for using crypto in
the payment ecosystem now with clarity Daniel even mentioned it
is that almost every Fortune five hundred brand is going
(03:09):
to have their own stable coin. This will start to
really kind of accelerate things going. When you look at
that and where you guys are. First of all, how
many users do you guys have today?
Speaker 7 (03:20):
Yeah, we've distributed around thirty to forty thousand Burner cards
across ecosystem, all.
Speaker 3 (03:24):
Right, thirty to forty thousand.
Speaker 1 (03:26):
What do you think the total market looks like for
Burner as a whole, Because I know this is an
open platform, give me a kind of a framework of
the tam.
Speaker 7 (03:35):
We think about Burner with respect to prepaid cards, and
so the prepaid card market is massive, approaching a trillion
dollars depending on how you slice it.
Speaker 4 (03:43):
But it's a pretty big market. So I think that's
what Berner plays in.
Speaker 7 (03:46):
Obviously it's a self custody product too, but I think
that prepaid is just a much bigger space for us
to play in.
Speaker 3 (03:52):
Which I would agree.
Speaker 1 (03:53):
I think the gift card side of this is going
to be pretty big, even though I think the terminal
side is equally important because it will start to translate
to prepaid cards as well as you get into that
this of course is your terminal. When I saw this
the first time, I said, oh, this is going to
be quite interesting if this starts to compete with the
titans out there, some of the Titans, of course, that
(04:15):
we've had and talked about before. This kind of shows
you an example of how the Burner card works with
your terminal. How do you guys line up against someone
like a Square or a Clover, who pretty much dominate
point of sale terminals right now in retail.
Speaker 7 (04:28):
We have a lot of similar features in the sense
that we can still process traditional credit cards, so we
have a seamless processing between crypto card like a Burner
and credit cards, but we don't offer sort of the
full back of restaurant experience that you might get with
a Clover. We're not going to be printing out receipts
for orders.
Speaker 4 (04:48):
Or things like that.
Speaker 7 (04:50):
So we think a lot of merchants will actually have
a dual terminal approach at launch. They'll have their big
Clover system, their Toe system, and then Burner will basically
be like a new form of cash, so they'll be
able to mark as cash in their existing terminal, entered
it on burner and tap to pay right there.
Speaker 1 (05:07):
So speed is still there. And I think for a
lot of people thinking well, that's not going to work.
In reality, Uber used to do that because before it
was integrated into the back of house you had what
I used to call is the tablet farm. You had
tablets from all the different third party delivery similar to that.
You think that's so your point is is that this
is one adjacent system looks very very clean in terms
(05:29):
of the device, its size, what's the size of those?
Speaker 3 (05:32):
Do you have one of those on you?
Speaker 7 (05:33):
Unfortunately, my colleague is demoing with the sole prototype that
we have. It's pretty small. It's about four inches across.
And yeah, I think you know, to be honest, there's
also a whole different category of business which is a
cash focused business. Yes, they may have an existing little
receipt printer pus. This is a perfect replacement for that.
(05:54):
You can drop it in. We're gonna have a cradle
you can mount it to. And so if you see
the business is to say, hey, we prefer cash, Mom
and pops food trucks, anyone, anyone who likes to be
in that space. Businesses that are regulated who might not
be able to get bank accounts. That's really going to
be our initial target market.
Speaker 3 (06:13):
How quickly do you think this can scale?
Speaker 7 (06:15):
So I think what we have is sort of a
two sided market problem in the sense where we're both
growing burners.
Speaker 4 (06:22):
As well as the terminals themselves.
Speaker 7 (06:25):
But with terminal, we're going to work through more traditional
partners who sell merchant processing services to customers in order
to get it out there, and so we're not just
going to be, i would say, trying to sell a
purely crypto product. We can say, hey, we're going to
offer you the same credit card processing that you've had
before in a reasonably priced, easy to use form factor,
(06:48):
and then we trojan horse the cryptocide into that.
Speaker 1 (06:50):
All right, So how does that work in comparison to
the transaction fees? If you look at Square and Clover
as an example here of the transaction rate, they kind
of lock in because they're giving the devices most of
the time for free on these point of sales because
they're getting back revenue from these transaction rates. Where do
you guys fall in this, because my understanding is this
(07:12):
going to be either low cost or no.
Speaker 7 (07:13):
Cost, right exactly? So on the stable coin processing side.
We haven't disclosed the rates formally, but we anticipate if
if the merchant is receiving stable coins and they're willing
to stay in those stable coins, it'll be effectively free.
There may be in certain cases gas charges depending on
the network that the person is paying on, but there
might be options to charge that back.
Speaker 4 (07:33):
To the user as opposed to the merchant.
Speaker 7 (07:35):
So really we're going to focus on the off ramping fee,
and the off ramping fee is going to be much
much less than traditional merchant processing fees. You know, think
in the realm of one percent or less, so sorry,
versus three percent or two point five.
Speaker 1 (07:50):
The off ramping you're saying one percent if you wanted
to come out, But if they kept it in there,
would they.
Speaker 3 (07:56):
Be able to earn yield on it?
Speaker 1 (07:58):
Do you guys, are you planning to do anything like
that to where maybe the merchant could I mean, because
there's a handful of people out there that are doing
that right now.
Speaker 7 (08:06):
Yeah, we've been thinking about sort of a bigger product
there to make it easier for merchants to manage their
cash flow to retain some of it and earn yield.
I think depending on the nature of the merchant. A
lot of businesses cash businesses, they have to.
Speaker 4 (08:20):
Have the money go out the door right away.
Speaker 7 (08:21):
But for those businesses that might want to hold funds
because they're seasonal and they need to you know, be
paying out their employees in those down months and then
they have their you know, other Black Friday days, that
product would work really well for them.
Speaker 4 (08:37):
We're also thinking of all sorts of other DeFi products.
Speaker 7 (08:39):
You know, the moment that we're on to the crypto rails,
we can start to offer things, you know, possibly as
interesting as lending and extending them credit lines based on
the amount of funds that they're passing through the terminal.
Speaker 3 (08:50):
Kind of like a firm.
Speaker 1 (08:51):
And you know some of the companies and I know
a Stripe they're doing that right now where they're trying
to lend to merchants based on their revenue that's coming in.
So that's a and that's a big revenue center for Stripe.
Any plan to make these dis free, especially if you
load them.
Speaker 7 (09:05):
Up, I would say, what we want to do is
we want to figure out that path to loading them
up and that works. That means we have to work
closely with retailers and consider the implications around money transmission licenses,
KYC things like that. So once we get through that,
selling them preloaded is something that we're really interested in,
and then that will allow us to reduce the upfront price. So,
for instance, if you buy what's called an open loop
(09:27):
gift card, you go and get like a Visa Vanilla
gift card, you'll be able to get your one hundred dollars,
but it's probably gonna cost you one oh five to
one oh seven, depending on the retailer. And so that's
probably the price point that we'll play in as well
when they're preloaded. The difference, of course, being that Burner
is a full fledged hardware wallet, not simply a piece
of plastic.
Speaker 3 (09:46):
How does this work if you were to lose your card.
Speaker 7 (09:50):
If you have a singular burner card, it's like cash.
If you lose the card, the funds are gone. If
you're using it as a hardware wallet and you want
to sort greater amounts of value on it, there's a
couple things we suggest. The first is you can duplicate
one burner to a second burner, so you can have
cloned burners because you you know, you've put a whole
(10:10):
ethon it or multiple thousands of dollars. The other thing
that I recommend is I love to use it in
a multi sig, so I attach it to a nosis
safe and now all of a sudden, you know it's
it's just one key amongst several, but it's hardware.
Speaker 4 (10:25):
It's a hard or key as opposed to it off.
Speaker 1 (10:26):
Yeah, it becomes kind of a hardware wallet. In essence,
what blockchains are you guys supporting right now?
Speaker 7 (10:32):
So we have an ethereum variant, and the Ethereum variant
supports main net, base Optimism and Arbitrum. We could support
any EVM chain. We like to keep it constrained because
our whole thing is ease of use. There's other folks
who have built open open apps that interact through our SDKs,
and they actually let you connect to way more chains.
Speaker 4 (10:52):
So they've done all sorts of ltus.
Speaker 7 (10:54):
And then we also have a separate Bitcoin skew and
so the bitcoin skew is is just bitcoin on l
one bitcoin and now that's probably more of a savings
product where you truly are going to gift it and
hold it for a long period of time, as opposed
to a spending product like the Ethereum one.
Speaker 1 (11:10):
So obviously we showed Daniel McCabe of Flexa on there.
We've been tracking Flexa for a long time for many reasons.
We think pos eventually would be one of the killer
apps for crypto payments, will be the killer app. Why
why partner up there? And do you think there's going
to be more partnerships other than just someone like a
(11:31):
Flexa who's already tied into some of these retailers.
Speaker 4 (11:35):
Yeah, we've known the Flexa team for a.
Speaker 7 (11:37):
Long time and they've laid a lot of the ground
a lot of the groundwork, both technically and politically to
make this work. I mean, you know, Danny's out there
on the trail really pushing ahead in front of the
political machinery, saying, hey, we need to make this easier.
So Flexa had no small part in getting things like
(12:02):
Genius through and hopefully Clarity. And so when we said okay,
when we're thinking about payments, you know, Flexa has a
massive community. They've built all this tech out for people
who want to pay at any coin. It would not
make sense for us to go out our own and
attempt to build this, and so it was a natural
coming together of their network of merchants and then sort
(12:24):
of our simple tap to pay capabilities.
Speaker 3 (12:27):
Very nice. Hey, listen.
Speaker 1 (12:28):
The one feature, and I mentioned it earlier, is the
ability to earn yield, okay, and earning yield inside of
something like what we saw with Ave.
Speaker 3 (12:37):
Being announced this week, the new Ave app and card.
Speaker 1 (12:42):
I'm telling you, Cameron, if you get yield on these things,
you're going to have merchants lining up for this thing
and in some sort of way, especially if Clarity goes through,
and it will just a matter of time, So put
that on your number one item for dev if you
don't already have it there for sure. What about you know,
some of the new things that you're going to be
developing for twenty twenty six, anything you can talk to
us about.
Speaker 4 (13:02):
Yeah, I mean, it's funny you mentioned yield.
Speaker 7 (13:04):
We've been hearing that a lot here on the ground
at dev Connect and Argentina. A lot of folks want
to see both yield on the burner cards natively as
well as as you mentioned on the merchant side. And
I think there's a lot of powerful, powerful things we
can do there. You know, we'll see how things land
with Genius and Clarity and what it really means to
be able to pay back the stable coin rewards there.
(13:26):
I think that a lot of the big players have
already been doing that, and our hope is that there
is some more clarity is around that. So I think
that's going to continue. But for twenty twenty six, we're
really excited to get the terminal out the door, so
we're not shipping it yet, probably end of Q one
early Q two, get it into merchant's hands and really
(13:47):
have some sort of established verticals where we see that
it's solving a problem for those merchants. And later in
the year I can say that there's some some interesting
stuff that we're working.
Speaker 4 (13:57):
On that starts to blur the line between traditional credit
card processing and crypto processing.
Speaker 7 (14:04):
We want to make it as easy to use, and
so that might mean crypto takes a back seat to
the traditional rails for a little while so that you
have a more seamless experience with the terminal and the
burner card.
Speaker 1 (14:16):
Well, this is going to be interesting to watch because
I think there is a unique position right now where
we're going to see the Web two Web three conversion
takes some time, so there will be kind of that
hybrid approach I can appreciate that if we get this
kind of protocol going and we start to see every
retailer having I mean, because clarity is coming, every retailer
(14:36):
will be able to do this. Starbucks, McDonald's, you name it,
they're going to have it. They'll have a stable coin
essentially tied. Would that be the Is that the end
of USDC?
Speaker 3 (14:46):
I mean, would you? How would this? Because man, you're.
Speaker 1 (14:50):
Talking about all of retail trillions and trillions of dollars
here in the US alone.
Speaker 7 (14:54):
Right, I Mean, in many ways, we're pretty neutral about that,
because the cool thing about a on tactless tap is
that you can negotiate any.
Speaker 4 (15:03):
Coin for the merchant very easily behind the scenes.
Speaker 7 (15:06):
Versus a QR code, where the user has to have
the intention of knowing what coin they're paying, and so
you have this whole friction of having to seek out
the coin and then knowing, well, Okay, today I'm at
McDonald's and I'm paying and USD MICK versus going to
Walmart and USDW. And so the nice thing is that
the terminal side, we can basically negotiate many cash like
stable coin tokens and resolve all that with just a tap,
(15:29):
and then the user might really not know that what
they're paying with as long as they understand that they
have sort of a cash balance as opposed to their crypto, right,
which is more savings oriented.
Speaker 1 (15:40):
All right, last question to you is there's been a
handful and I mean a handful of retailers that have
gone the route that Steak and Shake did, which was
accepting bitcoin. I'm still a questioning. I question whether or
not this was a successful platform. What I see now
with general crypto payments, especially in USDC or or other
stable coins being really the winner here.
Speaker 3 (16:02):
Do you think that is the.
Speaker 1 (16:04):
End of bitcoin being attempted to be used as a
payment model.
Speaker 7 (16:10):
Oh no, No, I think we're just at the beginning
of way more experimentation there. As you see with Square
rolling out all the Bitcoin support to their terminals. I
think it'd be really interesting to see how many users
pick that up. And I think the big benefit there
is they're going to approach the sort of tax arbitrage
of spend less than six hundred dollars of your bitcoin
and it's capital gain free.
Speaker 4 (16:31):
So I'm intrigued to see that.
Speaker 7 (16:33):
I think there's a lot of folks in the bitcoin
community who believe that lightning and bitcoin payments are are
universally the future. We're taking the bet on stable coins
because it's just easier to understand what you're paying.
Speaker 4 (16:46):
But I can imagine in you know, five years, Well, yeah,
we'll have a.
Speaker 7 (16:52):
Pretty clear picture pretty soon here around what people really
want to hold. And I suspect it's going to be
closer to a dollar and it is to a.
Speaker 3 (17:00):
Sat Yeah, yeah, for sure.
Speaker 1 (17:03):
Hey, Cameron, We're going to be watching this one very
closely as you guys develop out, so we'll probably have
you back on as things start to roll for you
once you get a major I'm just kind of curious
when you guys, and I'll talk to Daniel because I've
been on with Daniel McKay before. If you get a
national retailer that starts to roll out terminals, I'm curious
how that and what that might look like. So that
(17:23):
might be a good time to bring you guys back.
But thanks for coming in today. I appreciate it.
Speaker 4 (17:27):
Yeah, I really appreciate it. Thanks for having me on
the show.
Speaker 3 (17:29):
Paul.
Speaker 1 (17:30):
All right, take care, all right, you guys know what
to do. Make sure and jump into the diamond circle.
It's a great place to get additional content from us,
and of course follow me out there on X at
Paul Baron. We'll catch you next time right here on
The Paul Baron Show.
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