January 23, 2021 • 27 mins
Marine Corps veteran and Iwo Jima expert Robert Burrell takes us into battle through William Langston's eyes.
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Episode Transcript
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(00:09):
Hello, and welcome back to thePhantomrine podcast. I'm Chris d Rose,
author of The Fighting Bunch and hostof the podcast. Before we begin,
I would like to say thank youto the now thousands of listeners who are
joining us. For every episode,I'd like to hear directly from you with
your questions or observations. What amI missing? What would you like to
(00:31):
see answered or covered in greater detail? Please reach out at Chris du Rose
books dot com, slash contact that'sc h R I S D E R
O s E Books dot com slashcontact, or on Facebook at Facebook dot
com slash Phantomarine. I'd like todedicate the next episode entirely to your thoughts,
(00:58):
observations, and questions. For today'sepisode, we have Robert Burrell,
thirty one year veteran of the UnitedStates Marine Corps, former instructor at the
US Naval Academy at Annapolis, andauthor of the excellent book Ghosts of Iwashima.
He gives us an incredible perspective onwhat William Langston was seeing, hearing,
(01:21):
and perhaps thinking as he arrived atIwashima and proceeded to the faithful battle
at Cushman's Pocket let's hear from Robert. Let me first thank you for doing
this podcast, man. I mean, it's awesome that you're doing this for
the family. It's really nice thatyou're pursuing that and keeping Iwajima history a
(01:42):
lot. You know, if welook at lengths and story, I think
it's also very indicative of other marines, particularly these replacement marines who who filled
in the gaps of fallen comrades inthe combat battalions, and really kind of
a lot of tragedy occurred with thatsystem, and so I think Langston's journey
(02:07):
really simplifies the experience of those othermarines as well. I'm kind of starting
off where he left off on episodefour with Sulfur Island. I just want
to start with Lengthton's introduction the heRegima. You discussed him arriving via transport
vessel on three March. Lengston wouldhave to travel from ship to shore and
then inland to night Marines to meetup on the fifth of March. So
(02:31):
if you've been the Hewgima, ifyou get a chance, you really get
a lot of perspective on this.During that trip from ship to shore to
the Black Sands he Regima in upto his unit, which would be a
couple of miles north. He wouldhave been introduced to a few things.
First, any veterans he encountered wouldbe relating to him how horrible the fighting
(02:51):
had been, and that would havebeen very indicative of what he was visually
seeing. So the transport ships thatwere dropping off fresh placement marines were also
picking up the wounded, so like, there's this transfer happening on the beach,
and then he'd be hearing about thisreally horrific battle that was occurring from
(03:12):
the veterans. Initially, the plannersbelieve the battle was going to take three
days, and it's already two weeksinto it and the end isn't in sight.
It's the most brutal fighting experience MarineCorps history. I mean, really
her horrifying combat action. And ifI could for a minute, I just
want to describe why combat would beso horrifying and what Lameston would be hearing
(03:36):
from those who were there. DespiteUS numeric superiority. So there's about seventy
thousand US marines about twenty one thousandJapanese. The fighting on I Regima consisted
of frontal assault against fortify Japanese positionsover and over again. So the way
(03:57):
that worked is the Japanese that createdthis defense in debt, so that when
you took one line of Japanese defensesfrom the Japanese, there was a secondary
line behind it. This is pivotalto understand what happened to the Fox Company
because there's these lines where the Americans, as they do frontal assaults, very
painful front assaults, the sea's objectiveslike they're not done because behind it there's
(04:19):
more Japanese. At the same time, the Japanese had these predesignated indirect fire
targets all over the island, andthis combined, you know, General Kirbyashi,
the defending general there, had consolidatedall the indirect fire on the island
underneath one command, and the Marineshad nowhere to run, so they they
(04:42):
were just lobbing in shell after shellafter shell on predesignated targets for the Marines.
Where the number of indirect fire woundedand killed is higher at Evagima than
any other Marine Corps battle. It'sbecause they're just they're just throwing something down
range. You're going to hit amarine, particularly when you have so many
(05:03):
marines ashore. Right on the small, small island in both the Japanese defensive
soldiers and sailors just about six thousandsailors as well. Both the soldiers and
sailors and the artillery mortars will movethe secondary position. So if the artillery
mortars are under threat, they justmoved to another predesignated place and continue the
(05:27):
fight. I mean this is partof Kurbiasci's genius and inflicting as many casuals
as possible on the US. Sothe fighting from a US perspective is being
conducted at the platoon and squad level. You know, despite this being this
massive marine force, the largest marineonly force ever utilize in history is the
platoon and the squads that are doingall the fighting. So the entire landing
(05:53):
force, Fifth Amphibious Corps, thirdfourth and fifth, third fourth and fifth
Divisions, they're arrayed literally across thebreadth of the island and the fortifications are
being engaged by small units with handgrenades, rifles, bayonets. If you're
lucky, you're unit employed flamethrowers.But those marines also made primary targets for
(06:14):
the Japanese, So the life expectancyof a flamethrower Marine would have been very
short, So I just I justwanted to provide some context to what was
was. You know, what he'shearing and what he's seeing. As as
he's arriving onto the island, hewould have landed on the beaches sometime between
the third and the fifth, Sohe's seeing the casualties first off as he
(06:40):
steps ashore, and then as hetravels north, he's gonna have to visually
and physically go around the third andfourth Marine Division cemetery on his way up
to meet with his unit. Sothere's this huge cemetery there with thousands of
dead in it, already ongoing ceremoniesfor the deceased on a regular basis,
and he's going to see that onhis way moving north. And trying to
(07:01):
understand Langston's mental state or his enthusiasmI'm prior to arriving with Fox Company of
second Italian Night Marines, Third MarineDivision. I think it's fair to say
he would have been quite nervous onhis arrival. But if he was anxious
on the fifth when he arrives,his situation was about to get much worse.
(07:21):
Following his arrival, Langston arriving onthe fifth month March, he would
have discovered Fox Company preparing for anight assault on the heavily fortified Japanese position
to their front the very next day, on sixth of March. So he
rise on the fifth and they're alreadyplaying an assault the next day, and
they're doing it at night. Thisis the first night assault by the US
(07:44):
Marines, I believe on Iwajima.Night assaults are particularly different. They're the
most difficult compatry operation. It takesreally good coordination to pull off a night
attack. It took a lot ofcoordination in practice, and so if you
can imagine doing this with a lotof new marines that you're getting as replacements,
(08:05):
it must have been extremely challenging.And the reason why the Third Marine
Division was attempting this was they weretrying to change it up. I mean
that all three divisions were doing thesame thing. Every day. In the
morning, there'd be preparatory fire wherethey fire indirect rounds to soften up the
Japanese defenses, and then they'd doassault to try to seize them. And
(08:28):
they were doing this every day fortwo weeks. So the reason why the
Third Marine Division was trying something new, and it was with it included the
ninth Marines the twenty first Marines aswell, but it was to try to
do something new to be able toget through the Japanese defenses without so many
casualties. Ninth Marines had little timeto prepare for the nine attack on the
(08:50):
sixth. In the Marine Corps historyit's described as a hasty briefing and orientation.
But on the initial record UM,when they departed in cover of darkness
on the night of the six theydid so in an orderly fashion. So
they started out. It was workingwell UM in their movements movement portion,
(09:16):
and they moved about two hundred yardsin the morning. As daybreaks, the
second Battalion of Night Brains has twohundred yards into this maze. Basically,
they've they've passed up a bunch ofJapanese positions in the night. And like
I told you at the beginning whenwe started discussing it, now they're in
the second Now they're in a secondaryline, so there's a there's a front.
(09:39):
The front line that they were tryingto get through is behind them.
They've accomplished their projective objective, butnow they're in between the first line which
is still as Japanese in it,and a secondary line which has Japanese in
those positions as well. And sothe Japanese discovered them at daybreak and they
just start pouring fire into the secondBattalion from all directions. Communications get completely
(10:05):
cut off. Second Battalion has nocontact with the rear of the three battalions
in the regiment. Second Battalion definitelyhas it worse. And if the official
history describes it as confused and terrible, pretty strong words in an official account.
(10:26):
So on the day of seven Mars, Secondattalion has marched at night,
it's daybreak, and now it's onthe seventh both Echo Company and Fox Company
are engaged quote from the official history, all day in a battle for survival
unquote. So they're there the entireday taking fire from the Japanese. So
(10:48):
you'll notice in the causual report yousent me, but on the casual report
you sent me from the battalion surgeondated twenty two March, there's seven Marines.
They're listed and they're identified as havingdied. Um they're identified the identified
as having died in the twenty secondbut if you look up their their death
certificates. Four of those marines diedon the seventh and all four are from
(11:13):
Echo and Fox Fox Company. Sowe'll explain that in a minute. But
uh, that's just to say Echoand Fox Company are having a really bad
day. So on the day ofthe seventh, second second Battalion tries to
rescue the survivors of Echo and FoxCompany with tanks. And so the idea
of using tanks to to get getthese marines out is you bring in a
(11:37):
tank into an area where there's alot of direct fire and then you use
the tank as a shield while themarines that have survived to get behind the
tank and follow it out right.So that's what they're trying to do.
Um they do so successfully with EchoCompany Fox Company, they can't get to
on the seventh, and there's alot of challenges. I mean, when
(11:58):
you look at you Agima from thirtythousand feet, it looks flat, but
on the ground it's not flat atall. It's volcanic rock and it's got
crevices and holes and it's it's justa mess. And so you need not
only a tank, you need tohave a a tractor to come in and
kind of pave a road for thetank to get into, an arm an
(12:20):
armored bulldozer basically to get in andkind of pave a way for the tank
to even get back there. Andso they're not able to do that until
the eighth. They're not able torescue Fox Company until the eighth. That's
over twenty four hours underneath Japanese fire, and an official record it says they
(12:41):
brought out a few remaining rafflemen inthe company commanders. So I think it's
fair to say that Fox Company wasdevastated on the seventh. They left on
the sixth. They arrived in behindenemy lines, but now they're just completely
surrounded. Uh, they're stuck theregetting shot at and beat up for over
(13:03):
twenty four hours, probably around thirtysix hours, and then the battalions able
to bring in a tank um ormaybe multiple tanks for them to hide behind
and extract on the eighth, butit's doubtful they brought there. They're dead
with them. So Fox and EchoCompany make it to where they're kind of
(13:24):
uh, decided to go some ofthe other units. It's at night.
They actually arrived at positions that theydid not intended to arrive at. They
think they're on one hill, butthey're actually on a different hill. I
mean, it's confusing, and um, by the time daybreak, they're not
all in the positions they thought theywere in. And I think so that's
(13:45):
that's one challenge, and that's onthe right side of Fox Company, where
you've got units out of position.But I think the other challenges. You
know, they're looking at their theirchallenge in front of them, just as
I says they've done for two weeks. They're looking at their fortifications in front
of them, and how do weget past these things without a lot of
casualties. They're still not fully recognizingthat once you get past the first position,
(14:11):
you're going to hit another one,and they haven't fully thought it out.
What do we do when the werepositions are still occupied and that hadn't
happened previously because they had had toclear out every position before they move forward.
And you know, it's all goodintentions of trying to break the deadlock
and get past these fortified positions ina way that that wasn't going to be
(14:35):
horrific, but in execution and planningfor Fox and Echo Company in particular,
it was a disaster and there wasa very few survivors from Fox Company that
were there all night that made itout, And so I think you can
you can draw some conclusions if allthe information is accurate as a relays of
lengths, and I think you coulddraw some conclusions for that. Yeah.
(14:56):
The other thing that I think it'simportant mention about, um really this tragedy
and lengths and story if that's allaccurate, is that it's not unique and
it mirrors the stories of many otherreplacement marines. So this system of plugging
holes in the combat units with newreplacements is looked at later by the Marine
Corps. It's just a really badtechnique because you can replace in our tiler
(15:20):
piece, you can replace a machinegun, you can replace you know,
a rifle. But to replace theperson in a unit with it with a
new one, you know this wholeyou know, it'd be like doing the
same thing in the NFL. Right, let's just take take this player that's
never worked with this team and plughim in and see how they do.
I mean, there's this the wholeway of a unit training together and learning
(15:43):
how to work together. Um,that you just can't recreate overnight by having
someone arrive and suddenly go on thiscase and night assault. I mean that
is just it's just really hard tocontemplate the success not just for the unit,
but for that particular replacement, theirchance of being successful in those type
(16:04):
of conditions. I mean it's reallydifficult. And so a lot of replacement
marines suffered pretty bad ends being utilizedin this way. I mean, the
other way you would do it isto replace the whole unit with another one,
right, and so you pull oneof the rear and try to flush
it out, give it some timeand then replace it. But you know,
(16:25):
an Iwagima with a number of casualties, you're talking twenty eight thousand casualties.
I mean, the Marine Corps isjust doing the best it can.
It's just horrific. And so inany way, that's the system that was
used. So apparently, based uponthis information, Langston would have died in
the assault on seven March, forthey lost contact with him on seven March
(16:48):
or his body was not recovered untiltwenty two March, and I think that's
that would explain quite a bit ofdetail. So it explains why he's as
made it is killed on seven markMarch but not buried until the twenty second
because his body is not recovered untiltwo weeks later. So the Japanese really
control that area for some amount oftime um possibly up to two weeks,
(17:15):
until until the Marine Corps is ableto get back in and search for the
search for dead basically from Fosse company, you know. And that also answers
why there's there's four of the sevenMarines reported on the twenty second as having
been killed. Four of those arereported as dying on the seventh, So
(17:37):
there's possibly a number of bodies thatwere recovered on the twenty second and then
they went to be buried on thetwenty second. And this is really important
when you're talking about killed in action. On Evegima, there's no refrigeration system
and now we take we take bodiesto a mortuary who takes care of them
(17:57):
and there's a service, and thenthey finally you know, there's a way
to take care of the bodies.You couldn't do that on Elogima. They
need to be buried quickly. Soto have a body sitting out for two
weeks, if the Marines had itin a position, there's no way it
would not have been buried almost immediately. So the fact that it's reported on
(18:17):
the twenty second and buried on thetwenty second indicates that perhaps his body was
not discovered until two weeks later,and that also answers the question of why
his fingerprints can be taken so inwarm weather, fingerprints only last about four
days. I wouldn't describe Ellogima's hotin March. It's not hot, but
(18:38):
a body is sitting outside for twoweeks later, a fingerprints are probably unlikely,
and that's possibly why they weren't ableto take them at the time.
I also wanted to talk with Robertabout the prisoner of war issue. The
man who appeared in Newport, Arkansas, claiming to be William Langston said that
(19:00):
he had been a prisoner of waron Iwashima. We know from our conversation
with James Bradley that in fact Americanswere captured were tortured at least in one
instance on an Iwashima. However,there's no evidence of American prisoners leaving Japanese
prison camps, not any Washima.I think it's highly unlike so worst Japanese
(19:23):
prisoner in war camps. There's someon Baton, and you know the British
that were taken anastrons that were takenin Singapore. They were used in forced
labor and very to survive those conditions. But it in combat, I don't
I can't think of at the topof my head of in combat paws being
(19:45):
taken and not and not executed.That leaves three possibilities. First, that
the man with the limp was simplyan impostor he didn't know what happened on
Iwashima. Second, that the manwho showed up a new Port was William
Langston, but mistaken about his prisonerof war status, how long he'd been
a prisoner, whether he'd been aprisoner as a product of some kind of
(20:08):
mental illness, or a third WilliamLangston showed up in Newport, Arkansas but
was using the pow story as acover for whatever really happened during the time
between when he was declared killed inaction and when he appeared in Newport,
Arkansas. Those are good assumptions toto pursue. I you know, if
(20:32):
if if Langston was going to basicallyplan um, you know, his own
h extraction from Eugimo without having togo through the horror film that everyone was
going through, I think it ispossible to try to switch identities. But
um, I mean you talk someof some of those, um, particularly
(20:56):
when you're a replacement. That wasa key question for me when we went
into this was was he replace samentmarine? Because if you're a replacement marine,
you understand the process. You understandwhat it's like to move from ship
to shore as a replacement, andwhat the process is to get to your
unit. You understand you know whatthe paperwork is or the the process for
doing that. If you hadn't donethat, I don't think there'd be any
(21:19):
option for you to try to kindof figure out how to get to another
unit, um and try to getoff the island. But if you were
a replacement, at least you'd havesome understanding of that. But the other
thing that I found really interesting inyour other podcast was the fact that the
(21:40):
the the William Langston that that poppedup as a phantom marine had injuries.
And you know, if you wereinjured in combat, there would be no
incentive to try to hide your identityas someone else. You would just be
evacuated. So it makes me thinkthat you know that, why would someone
(22:04):
do that? You know what?Um So I there's a lot of questions.
And I think also the fact thathis his ring was found UM and
delivered back to his wife indicates thatthat that was probably on the body UM
when it was recovered. From myperspective, I think it's very unlikely that
(22:26):
Lynston did not die in a regimabut um. If he was going to
plan his UM his death, Ithink he would have to try to do
an identity swap, which would includethe rings, dog tags and whatever else
UM. And that would that wouldexplain why he doesn't um want to be
(22:48):
identified when he returns home, becausehe's hiding from his obligations on the regima
UM. But I just find thatthat pretty unlikely, particularly if he's injured.
UM. But I mean it's suchan interesting story. I mean,
you uh, all those details,UM. I know you have a legal
(23:10):
background, but all all those detailsthat that the Phantom Marine is able to
talk about Langston and his family isjust incredible. I mean, I it's
hard to find another explanation. Iguess one more data point UM because I'm
just like I said, I thinkit's very little chance that Langston made off
imagima but um UM. The factthat he didn't contact his spouse and a
(23:34):
returned. He also never wrote hercurrently the entire time he was overseas.
It's over four months, so um, that seems odd. Yeah, that's
uh. It's it's a fascinating story, but it's uh, it's also a
story, and I hope you canum relate that out as a Igima story
(23:57):
historian um to really tell the taleof Eva GiMA. It's been seventy five
years, but it's still a reallyimportant historical event for the United States.
And you know, there was alot of marines that sacrifice their lives there,
(24:17):
and we talked today about mental traumathe marines you return from Evagima,
they were never the same and theymade tremendous sacrifices there that we should always
remember. I asked Robert what itwould have taken for William Langston to board
the ship without creating a paper trail. I don't know specifically all the things
(24:38):
he would have had to done,but I think that was a key question
for me on him being a replacementmarine, because having arrived as a replacement
marine for nights marines just coming infrom Guam, he would be very familiar
with the system of being offloaded andwounded, being unloaded onto UM onto landing
(25:03):
craft, so um he'd be morefamiliar with with how to do that,
where none of those who had arrivedoriginally m would be familiar with that.
So I mean, if I thinkhe'd have to be wounded probably to go
through that system, but maybe not. I mean, maybe there's a way
(25:26):
to pretend like there's a reason whyyou're going back to the ship and get
on. But uh as doubtfold,they probably took UM. They probably took
inventory of who was going back foraccountability purposes at all times, of who's
coming in and leaving um the island, so it's definitely feasible. In particular,
(25:48):
I want to thank the Langston familyUM and the actions of William William
Lyngston during the battle because I knowthey're listening to your podcasts and I know
this means a lot to them.So hopefully anything that I added to license
charity journeys of value to them andthat they find some peace. Every veteran,
we obviously we don't have a bandwidthfor it, but every veteran deserves
(26:11):
the type of review and discussion,and particularly World War two, you know,
I've obviously that's my interest in yoursas well. But all of those
who sacrifice everything for our country deservesthis type of deserve this type of treatment,
and I appreciate you doing the podcast. Thanks again to Robert Burrell for
(26:36):
a lifetime of service to the UnitedStates and for his scholarship on the Battle
of Viewgima. His book is Ghostsof Viewhima. Check it out. Please
reach out with your observations and yourquestions at christ Rosebooks dot com, slash
contact or Facebook dot com slash PhantomMarine Podcast. I'm looking forward to doing
(27:02):
an episode that is focused entirely onyour thoughts, your ideas, your questions.
I'm yours for the truth. ChristRose
Hello, and welcome back to thePhantomrine podcast. I'm Chris d Rose,
author of The Fighting Bunch and hostof the podcast. Before we begin,
I would like to say thank youto the now thousands of listeners who are
joining us. For every episode,I'd like to hear directly from you with
your questions or observations. What amI missing? What would you like to
(00:31):
see answered or covered in greater detail? Please reach out at Chris du Rose
books dot com, slash contact that'sc h R I S D E R
O s E Books dot com slashcontact, or on Facebook at Facebook dot
com slash Phantomarine. I'd like todedicate the next episode entirely to your thoughts,
(00:58):
observations, and questions. For today'sepisode, we have Robert Burrell,
thirty one year veteran of the UnitedStates Marine Corps, former instructor at the
US Naval Academy at Annapolis, andauthor of the excellent book Ghosts of Iwashima.
He gives us an incredible perspective onwhat William Langston was seeing, hearing,
(01:21):
and perhaps thinking as he arrived atIwashima and proceeded to the faithful battle
at Cushman's Pocket let's hear from Robert. Let me first thank you for doing
this podcast, man. I mean, it's awesome that you're doing this for
the family. It's really nice thatyou're pursuing that and keeping Iwajima history a
(01:42):
lot. You know, if welook at lengths and story, I think
it's also very indicative of other marines, particularly these replacement marines who who filled
in the gaps of fallen comrades inthe combat battalions, and really kind of
a lot of tragedy occurred with thatsystem, and so I think Langston's journey
(02:07):
really simplifies the experience of those othermarines as well. I'm kind of starting
off where he left off on episodefour with Sulfur Island. I just want
to start with Lengthton's introduction the heRegima. You discussed him arriving via transport
vessel on three March. Lengston wouldhave to travel from ship to shore and
then inland to night Marines to meetup on the fifth of March. So
(02:31):
if you've been the Hewgima, ifyou get a chance, you really get
a lot of perspective on this.During that trip from ship to shore to
the Black Sands he Regima in upto his unit, which would be a
couple of miles north. He wouldhave been introduced to a few things.
First, any veterans he encountered wouldbe relating to him how horrible the fighting
(02:51):
had been, and that would havebeen very indicative of what he was visually
seeing. So the transport ships thatwere dropping off fresh placement marines were also
picking up the wounded, so like, there's this transfer happening on the beach,
and then he'd be hearing about thisreally horrific battle that was occurring from
(03:12):
the veterans. Initially, the plannersbelieve the battle was going to take three
days, and it's already two weeksinto it and the end isn't in sight.
It's the most brutal fighting experience MarineCorps history. I mean, really
her horrifying combat action. And ifI could for a minute, I just
want to describe why combat would beso horrifying and what Lameston would be hearing
(03:36):
from those who were there. DespiteUS numeric superiority. So there's about seventy
thousand US marines about twenty one thousandJapanese. The fighting on I Regima consisted
of frontal assault against fortify Japanese positionsover and over again. So the way
(03:57):
that worked is the Japanese that createdthis defense in debt, so that when
you took one line of Japanese defensesfrom the Japanese, there was a secondary
line behind it. This is pivotalto understand what happened to the Fox Company
because there's these lines where the Americans, as they do frontal assaults, very
painful front assaults, the sea's objectiveslike they're not done because behind it there's
(04:19):
more Japanese. At the same time, the Japanese had these predesignated indirect fire
targets all over the island, andthis combined, you know, General Kirbyashi,
the defending general there, had consolidatedall the indirect fire on the island
underneath one command, and the Marineshad nowhere to run, so they they
(04:42):
were just lobbing in shell after shellafter shell on predesignated targets for the Marines.
Where the number of indirect fire woundedand killed is higher at Evagima than
any other Marine Corps battle. It'sbecause they're just they're just throwing something down
range. You're going to hit amarine, particularly when you have so many
(05:03):
marines ashore. Right on the small, small island in both the Japanese defensive
soldiers and sailors just about six thousandsailors as well. Both the soldiers and
sailors and the artillery mortars will movethe secondary position. So if the artillery
mortars are under threat, they justmoved to another predesignated place and continue the
(05:27):
fight. I mean this is partof Kurbiasci's genius and inflicting as many casuals
as possible on the US. Sothe fighting from a US perspective is being
conducted at the platoon and squad level. You know, despite this being this
massive marine force, the largest marineonly force ever utilize in history is the
platoon and the squads that are doingall the fighting. So the entire landing
(05:53):
force, Fifth Amphibious Corps, thirdfourth and fifth, third fourth and fifth
Divisions, they're arrayed literally across thebreadth of the island and the fortifications are
being engaged by small units with handgrenades, rifles, bayonets. If you're
lucky, you're unit employed flamethrowers.But those marines also made primary targets for
(06:14):
the Japanese, So the life expectancyof a flamethrower Marine would have been very
short, So I just I justwanted to provide some context to what was
was. You know, what he'shearing and what he's seeing. As as
he's arriving onto the island, hewould have landed on the beaches sometime between
the third and the fifth, Sohe's seeing the casualties first off as he
(06:40):
steps ashore, and then as hetravels north, he's gonna have to visually
and physically go around the third andfourth Marine Division cemetery on his way up
to meet with his unit. Sothere's this huge cemetery there with thousands of
dead in it, already ongoing ceremoniesfor the deceased on a regular basis,
and he's going to see that onhis way moving north. And trying to
(07:01):
understand Langston's mental state or his enthusiasmI'm prior to arriving with Fox Company of
second Italian Night Marines, Third MarineDivision. I think it's fair to say
he would have been quite nervous onhis arrival. But if he was anxious
on the fifth when he arrives,his situation was about to get much worse.
(07:21):
Following his arrival, Langston arriving onthe fifth month March, he would
have discovered Fox Company preparing for anight assault on the heavily fortified Japanese position
to their front the very next day, on sixth of March. So he
rise on the fifth and they're alreadyplaying an assault the next day, and
they're doing it at night. Thisis the first night assault by the US
(07:44):
Marines, I believe on Iwajima.Night assaults are particularly different. They're the
most difficult compatry operation. It takesreally good coordination to pull off a night
attack. It took a lot ofcoordination in practice, and so if you
can imagine doing this with a lotof new marines that you're getting as replacements,
(08:05):
it must have been extremely challenging.And the reason why the Third Marine
Division was attempting this was they weretrying to change it up. I mean
that all three divisions were doing thesame thing. Every day. In the
morning, there'd be preparatory fire wherethey fire indirect rounds to soften up the
Japanese defenses, and then they'd doassault to try to seize them. And
(08:28):
they were doing this every day fortwo weeks. So the reason why the
Third Marine Division was trying something new, and it was with it included the
ninth Marines the twenty first Marines aswell, but it was to try to
do something new to be able toget through the Japanese defenses without so many
casualties. Ninth Marines had little timeto prepare for the nine attack on the
(08:50):
sixth. In the Marine Corps historyit's described as a hasty briefing and orientation.
But on the initial record UM,when they departed in cover of darkness
on the night of the six theydid so in an orderly fashion. So
they started out. It was workingwell UM in their movements movement portion,
(09:16):
and they moved about two hundred yardsin the morning. As daybreaks, the
second Battalion of Night Brains has twohundred yards into this maze. Basically,
they've they've passed up a bunch ofJapanese positions in the night. And like
I told you at the beginning whenwe started discussing it, now they're in
the second Now they're in a secondaryline, so there's a there's a front.
(09:39):
The front line that they were tryingto get through is behind them.
They've accomplished their projective objective, butnow they're in between the first line which
is still as Japanese in it,and a secondary line which has Japanese in
those positions as well. And sothe Japanese discovered them at daybreak and they
just start pouring fire into the secondBattalion from all directions. Communications get completely
(10:05):
cut off. Second Battalion has nocontact with the rear of the three battalions
in the regiment. Second Battalion definitelyhas it worse. And if the official
history describes it as confused and terrible, pretty strong words in an official account.
(10:26):
So on the day of seven Mars, Secondattalion has marched at night,
it's daybreak, and now it's onthe seventh both Echo Company and Fox Company
are engaged quote from the official history, all day in a battle for survival
unquote. So they're there the entireday taking fire from the Japanese. So
(10:48):
you'll notice in the causual report yousent me, but on the casual report
you sent me from the battalion surgeondated twenty two March, there's seven Marines.
They're listed and they're identified as havingdied. Um they're identified the identified
as having died in the twenty secondbut if you look up their their death
certificates. Four of those marines diedon the seventh and all four are from
(11:13):
Echo and Fox Fox Company. Sowe'll explain that in a minute. But
uh, that's just to say Echoand Fox Company are having a really bad
day. So on the day ofthe seventh, second second Battalion tries to
rescue the survivors of Echo and FoxCompany with tanks. And so the idea
of using tanks to to get getthese marines out is you bring in a
(11:37):
tank into an area where there's alot of direct fire and then you use
the tank as a shield while themarines that have survived to get behind the
tank and follow it out right.So that's what they're trying to do.
Um they do so successfully with EchoCompany Fox Company, they can't get to
on the seventh, and there's alot of challenges. I mean, when
(11:58):
you look at you Agima from thirtythousand feet, it looks flat, but
on the ground it's not flat atall. It's volcanic rock and it's got
crevices and holes and it's it's justa mess. And so you need not
only a tank, you need tohave a a tractor to come in and
kind of pave a road for thetank to get into, an arm an
(12:20):
armored bulldozer basically to get in andkind of pave a way for the tank
to even get back there. Andso they're not able to do that until
the eighth. They're not able torescue Fox Company until the eighth. That's
over twenty four hours underneath Japanese fire, and an official record it says they
(12:41):
brought out a few remaining rafflemen inthe company commanders. So I think it's
fair to say that Fox Company wasdevastated on the seventh. They left on
the sixth. They arrived in behindenemy lines, but now they're just completely
surrounded. Uh, they're stuck theregetting shot at and beat up for over
(13:03):
twenty four hours, probably around thirtysix hours, and then the battalions able
to bring in a tank um ormaybe multiple tanks for them to hide behind
and extract on the eighth, butit's doubtful they brought there. They're dead
with them. So Fox and EchoCompany make it to where they're kind of
(13:24):
uh, decided to go some ofthe other units. It's at night.
They actually arrived at positions that theydid not intended to arrive at. They
think they're on one hill, butthey're actually on a different hill. I
mean, it's confusing, and um, by the time daybreak, they're not
all in the positions they thought theywere in. And I think so that's
(13:45):
that's one challenge, and that's onthe right side of Fox Company, where
you've got units out of position.But I think the other challenges. You
know, they're looking at their theirchallenge in front of them, just as
I says they've done for two weeks. They're looking at their fortifications in front
of them, and how do weget past these things without a lot of
casualties. They're still not fully recognizingthat once you get past the first position,
(14:11):
you're going to hit another one,and they haven't fully thought it out.
What do we do when the werepositions are still occupied and that hadn't
happened previously because they had had toclear out every position before they move forward.
And you know, it's all goodintentions of trying to break the deadlock
and get past these fortified positions ina way that that wasn't going to be
(14:35):
horrific, but in execution and planningfor Fox and Echo Company in particular,
it was a disaster and there wasa very few survivors from Fox Company that
were there all night that made itout, And so I think you can
you can draw some conclusions if allthe information is accurate as a relays of
lengths, and I think you coulddraw some conclusions for that. Yeah.
(14:56):
The other thing that I think it'simportant mention about, um really this tragedy
and lengths and story if that's allaccurate, is that it's not unique and
it mirrors the stories of many otherreplacement marines. So this system of plugging
holes in the combat units with newreplacements is looked at later by the Marine
Corps. It's just a really badtechnique because you can replace in our tiler
(15:20):
piece, you can replace a machinegun, you can replace you know,
a rifle. But to replace theperson in a unit with it with a
new one, you know this wholeyou know, it'd be like doing the
same thing in the NFL. Right, let's just take take this player that's
never worked with this team and plughim in and see how they do.
I mean, there's this the wholeway of a unit training together and learning
(15:43):
how to work together. Um,that you just can't recreate overnight by having
someone arrive and suddenly go on thiscase and night assault. I mean that
is just it's just really hard tocontemplate the success not just for the unit,
but for that particular replacement, theirchance of being successful in those type
(16:04):
of conditions. I mean it's reallydifficult. And so a lot of replacement
marines suffered pretty bad ends being utilizedin this way. I mean, the
other way you would do it isto replace the whole unit with another one,
right, and so you pull oneof the rear and try to flush
it out, give it some timeand then replace it. But you know,
(16:25):
an Iwagima with a number of casualties, you're talking twenty eight thousand casualties.
I mean, the Marine Corps isjust doing the best it can.
It's just horrific. And so inany way, that's the system that was
used. So apparently, based uponthis information, Langston would have died in
the assault on seven March, forthey lost contact with him on seven March
(16:48):
or his body was not recovered untiltwenty two March, and I think that's
that would explain quite a bit ofdetail. So it explains why he's as
made it is killed on seven markMarch but not buried until the twenty second
because his body is not recovered untiltwo weeks later. So the Japanese really
control that area for some amount oftime um possibly up to two weeks,
(17:15):
until until the Marine Corps is ableto get back in and search for the
search for dead basically from Fosse company, you know. And that also answers
why there's there's four of the sevenMarines reported on the twenty second as having
been killed. Four of those arereported as dying on the seventh, So
(17:37):
there's possibly a number of bodies thatwere recovered on the twenty second and then
they went to be buried on thetwenty second. And this is really important
when you're talking about killed in action. On Evegima, there's no refrigeration system
and now we take we take bodiesto a mortuary who takes care of them
(17:57):
and there's a service, and thenthey finally you know, there's a way
to take care of the bodies.You couldn't do that on Elogima. They
need to be buried quickly. Soto have a body sitting out for two
weeks, if the Marines had itin a position, there's no way it
would not have been buried almost immediately. So the fact that it's reported on
(18:17):
the twenty second and buried on thetwenty second indicates that perhaps his body was
not discovered until two weeks later,and that also answers the question of why
his fingerprints can be taken so inwarm weather, fingerprints only last about four
days. I wouldn't describe Ellogima's hotin March. It's not hot, but
(18:38):
a body is sitting outside for twoweeks later, a fingerprints are probably unlikely,
and that's possibly why they weren't ableto take them at the time.
I also wanted to talk with Robertabout the prisoner of war issue. The
man who appeared in Newport, Arkansas, claiming to be William Langston said that
(19:00):
he had been a prisoner of waron Iwashima. We know from our conversation
with James Bradley that in fact Americanswere captured were tortured at least in one
instance on an Iwashima. However,there's no evidence of American prisoners leaving Japanese
prison camps, not any Washima.I think it's highly unlike so worst Japanese
(19:23):
prisoner in war camps. There's someon Baton, and you know the British
that were taken anastrons that were takenin Singapore. They were used in forced
labor and very to survive those conditions. But it in combat, I don't
I can't think of at the topof my head of in combat paws being
(19:45):
taken and not and not executed.That leaves three possibilities. First, that
the man with the limp was simplyan impostor he didn't know what happened on
Iwashima. Second, that the manwho showed up a new Port was William
Langston, but mistaken about his prisonerof war status, how long he'd been
a prisoner, whether he'd been aprisoner as a product of some kind of
(20:08):
mental illness, or a third WilliamLangston showed up in Newport, Arkansas but
was using the pow story as acover for whatever really happened during the time
between when he was declared killed inaction and when he appeared in Newport,
Arkansas. Those are good assumptions toto pursue. I you know, if
(20:32):
if if Langston was going to basicallyplan um, you know, his own
h extraction from Eugimo without having togo through the horror film that everyone was
going through, I think it ispossible to try to switch identities. But
um, I mean you talk someof some of those, um, particularly
(20:56):
when you're a replacement. That wasa key question for me when we went
into this was was he replace samentmarine? Because if you're a replacement marine,
you understand the process. You understandwhat it's like to move from ship
to shore as a replacement, andwhat the process is to get to your
unit. You understand you know whatthe paperwork is or the the process for
doing that. If you hadn't donethat, I don't think there'd be any
(21:19):
option for you to try to kindof figure out how to get to another
unit, um and try to getoff the island. But if you were
a replacement, at least you'd havesome understanding of that. But the other
thing that I found really interesting inyour other podcast was the fact that the
(21:40):
the the William Langston that that poppedup as a phantom marine had injuries.
And you know, if you wereinjured in combat, there would be no
incentive to try to hide your identityas someone else. You would just be
evacuated. So it makes me thinkthat you know that, why would someone
(22:04):
do that? You know what?Um So I there's a lot of questions.
And I think also the fact thathis his ring was found UM and
delivered back to his wife indicates thatthat that was probably on the body UM
when it was recovered. From myperspective, I think it's very unlikely that
(22:26):
Lynston did not die in a regimabut um. If he was going to
plan his UM his death, Ithink he would have to try to do
an identity swap, which would includethe rings, dog tags and whatever else
UM. And that would that wouldexplain why he doesn't um want to be
(22:48):
identified when he returns home, becausehe's hiding from his obligations on the regima
UM. But I just find thatthat pretty unlikely, particularly if he's injured.
UM. But I mean it's suchan interesting story. I mean,
you uh, all those details,UM. I know you have a legal
(23:10):
background, but all all those detailsthat that the Phantom Marine is able to
talk about Langston and his family isjust incredible. I mean, I it's
hard to find another explanation. Iguess one more data point UM because I'm
just like I said, I thinkit's very little chance that Langston made off
imagima but um UM. The factthat he didn't contact his spouse and a
(23:34):
returned. He also never wrote hercurrently the entire time he was overseas.
It's over four months, so um, that seems odd. Yeah, that's
uh. It's it's a fascinating story, but it's uh, it's also a
story, and I hope you canum relate that out as a Igima story
(23:57):
historian um to really tell the taleof Eva GiMA. It's been seventy five
years, but it's still a reallyimportant historical event for the United States.
And you know, there was alot of marines that sacrifice their lives there,
(24:17):
and we talked today about mental traumathe marines you return from Evagima,
they were never the same and theymade tremendous sacrifices there that we should always
remember. I asked Robert what itwould have taken for William Langston to board
the ship without creating a paper trail. I don't know specifically all the things
(24:38):
he would have had to done,but I think that was a key question
for me on him being a replacementmarine, because having arrived as a replacement
marine for nights marines just coming infrom Guam, he would be very familiar
with the system of being offloaded andwounded, being unloaded onto UM onto landing
(25:03):
craft, so um he'd be morefamiliar with with how to do that,
where none of those who had arrivedoriginally m would be familiar with that.
So I mean, if I thinkhe'd have to be wounded probably to go
through that system, but maybe not. I mean, maybe there's a way
(25:26):
to pretend like there's a reason whyyou're going back to the ship and get
on. But uh as doubtfold,they probably took UM. They probably took
inventory of who was going back foraccountability purposes at all times, of who's
coming in and leaving um the island, so it's definitely feasible. In particular,
(25:48):
I want to thank the Langston familyUM and the actions of William William
Lyngston during the battle because I knowthey're listening to your podcasts and I know
this means a lot to them.So hopefully anything that I added to license
charity journeys of value to them andthat they find some peace. Every veteran,
we obviously we don't have a bandwidthfor it, but every veteran deserves
(26:11):
the type of review and discussion,and particularly World War two, you know,
I've obviously that's my interest in yoursas well. But all of those
who sacrifice everything for our country deservesthis type of deserve this type of treatment,
and I appreciate you doing the podcast. Thanks again to Robert Burrell for
(26:36):
a lifetime of service to the UnitedStates and for his scholarship on the Battle
of Viewgima. His book is Ghostsof Viewhima. Check it out. Please
reach out with your observations and yourquestions at christ Rosebooks dot com, slash
contact or Facebook dot com slash PhantomMarine Podcast. I'm looking forward to doing
(27:02):
an episode that is focused entirely onyour thoughts, your ideas, your questions.
I'm yours for the truth. ChristRose
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