An Interview with Payton McCarty Simas, Author THAT VERY WITCH

In this bonus episode, Ariel interviews author Payton McCarty-Simas about their upcoming book, That Very Witch: Fear, Feminism, and the American Witch Film. The two of them discuss how witch films follow the cycles of feminism and other political movements in the US, why history matters in horror, and why Heather in The Blair Witch Project did nothing wrong. 

Preorder "That Very Witch: Fear, Feminism, and the American Witch Film" here.Follow Payton on Instagram @paytplace .Add The Devonsville Terror to your watch list.

Episode Transcript

(00:35):
None. Hello everyone, and welcome to
another episode of the Pod and the Pendulum.
Normally the podcast where we gothrough all the horror movie
franchises one movie and one episode at a time.
But today we have a very specialguest with us, author Peyton
McCarty Simmons, who wrote that very Witch fear, feminism and

(00:58):
the American witch film. Peyton, thanks for being here.
Thanks so much for having me. Of course.
Yeah. So when I saw that you were
writing a non fiction horror movie analysis book, I was super
stoked because that is exactly my area of interest.
So really glad to have you here to talk about your book.

(01:19):
So can you just start by tellingour listeners who might not know
just a little bit about you and your work in the horror space?
Yeah, totally. So I am a film critic and a
programmer. I also do some video editing but
basically I focus on genre film,experimental film and queer
film. I like to take a political lens

(01:40):
to film history. I like to trace patterns.
I like to look at sub genres andyeah, I mean, I'm interested in
almost everything, but that's kind of my main thing right now.
I write freelance, so I've written in a ton of different
publications. I'm in room more of a decent
amount. I'm in the Brooklyn Rail and we

(02:03):
met through just horror stuff around New York.
Yes, yes, I we met through friend of the pod Tori Pitenza.
And yeah, they set up a group and yeah, so it was cool to meet
a bunch of other horror friends there.
So tell us a little bit about this book.

(02:25):
Yeah, definitely. It is basically a history of the
relationship between the way witches are represented in
horror films and the way feminist movements are
understood in American politics and American culture over time.
So I start basically with the second wave feminist movement.

(02:45):
I I dig in a little bit to the history of the witch.
I talk about precursors. But really I start in 1958 and I
go all the way to the present. So I cover 13 presidential
administrations, 100 films, and it was an absolute blast to
write. And in it you'll hear about a
lot of films that you, you know,probably already think of when

(03:08):
you're thinking about which movies, right?
Like your Rosemary's Babies and the Crafts and all of that.
But also as I get into the kind of subcultural valences and I
look at the context for different feminist movements and
how they're situated in Americanculture, you get a lot more
obscure. It's kind of taxonomic in a way.
It's historiographic. It's about how the movies are

(03:30):
received and how they and culture relate to each other.
So yeah, it was. It was so much fun to write and
I hope it's so much fun to read.Yeah, Every word you're saying,
I'm like, absolutely hanging on because I'm like, feminism, film
analysis, historical context. I'm like, yes, this is all of
it. How did the idea for this book

(03:54):
first come up? Like, how did you get started on
this particular journey? Well, I was watching a lot of
horror movies, as I do in college, near the beginning of
my college career, and I startednoticing a pattern in the, you

(04:14):
know, the place that we now callelevated horror, right?
And it hadn't been validated into that term yet, but I
started seeing a pattern relatedto the themes and the narrative
structures and specifically the endings of a particular subset
of movies that I realized were typically about witches.

(04:34):
And that really struck me because it's incredibly
different from how witches have had been represented in the
past, right? Typically, the structure for
which movie is, you know, you have the normal world, the witch
comes in, she has some fun, and then eventually good triumphs
over evil. Twenty 10s that shifted pretty

(04:55):
profoundly to present us with the image of a woman smiling at
the end of a horror film, not because she's beaten the
monster, but because she has become the monster.
And there are precursors to that, certainly, but it's
atypical and seeing it as a pattern is really interesting.
This was coming to be around thesame time as the Me Too movement

(05:17):
beginning of the Trump administration.
And there's no way that those things aren't related, right?
So I started into their receptions.
I looked at reviews and then I started doing, you know, like a
lot of history on witchcraft. But over time, it kind of grew
and grew and snowballed into a broader project because I

(05:38):
realized that you can't understand the significance of
that pattern without understanding what patterns led
to it. And much as politics are
cyclical, so too are films, right?
It's film cycles. And so I kind of trace this
Corkscrew of which cycles through to the present and see

(06:00):
where they echo and where they're dissonant.
So that's kind of how that went.I just went overboard for many,
many, many years, and now it's 2025.
It's something happening. I, I love that.
I love going overboard on a project for years and one day
you look up and you're like, it's real.
Yeah, seriously so. I you know, when I was writing

(06:24):
Millennial Nasties, I had to choose which movies to include
and which to exclude. And so I know that that's hard.
And so I'm wondering, how did you decide which movies to cover
and which ones to leave out? Yeah, well, it was hard.
I mean, a lot of my research process.
And you probably feel the same way because not only is your

(06:46):
book fabulous and very comprehensive, but it's one of
those things where when you're looking at a genre like that,
you have to eat everything first.
Beside you. Sure.
Do oh. Man, it's ours.
Like I had one night where my fiance was going to hang out
with our friends. He was like, I'm going to a bar
and I was like, I have to watch with Witchcraft 4 and I can't

(07:08):
leave the house. Oh.
My God, I know this. I know this life very well.
It's like a beautiful sunny day.And I'm like, I have to watch a
movie called Mummy Maniac that was straight to DVD in 2007.
Yeah. See you go through all of it
before you could decide. Yeah, but.
I think one of the things that Ireally tried to do with this

(07:30):
book is make it a story. Like really, it's a story.
The films are only one part of the broader tapestry because
each after each part is a vibe check on a period, right?
I try to give you a sense of thefilm history of that point in
time, the political history of that point in time and the

(07:52):
feminist history of that point in time, and then how they
relate to each other. And so the films are structural
and just great entry points intoall of those things.
But I touch on so many films without necessarily diving into
them that there weren't that many.

(08:13):
I had to cut no when I that's nice in the manuscript, it was
70 pages longer than my publisher wanted it to be, so I
did have to excise 2 entire chapters on particular subsets
of films. So if you were looking for an
analysis of like Halloween threeseason of the witch, that's not

(08:34):
in here anymore. OK, OK, Some stuff has to get
cut. Books have to end.
They do, they really do, even ifyou don't want them to when
you're writing them. But I'm trying to think, yeah,
the ones, the the real criteria for deciding what went in was
does this thing fit the theme I'm exploring in that chapter?

(08:56):
So in the 60s, one of my my guiding lights is a question of
belief. And that idea comes up in all of
these reviews, believability, trust, skepticism.
And so if a movie doesn't fit that theme, then it's not
particularly relevant. But if it's production history

(09:18):
has an interesting parallel withthat theme, even if it's not as
topical texturally, it might endup there in a footnote or as
part of a sentence. Yeah.
Trying to think if there were any real stinkers that I cut.
Well, and sometimes it's just like, at least when I was
writing Millennial Nasties, the feeling I got was I keep

(09:40):
repeating my point. If I put in all these movies,
like I cut some movies, 'cause Iwas like, I've already made my
point. And so you can run into that
too. That's true, yeah.
When it's, when it's cyclical, if it once you've gotten kind of
the, the ER example, then you don't need to illustrate
further. So yeah, there are definitely
like there's a lot of porn I watched for the 60s chapter that

(10:02):
I cut 'cause it was redundant. Sure.
Yeah. Or like the the fabulous TV tie
in special to The Blair Witch Project.
I wrote a whole couple page riffon it and then realized that it
didn't fit the flow of my argument.
So that was something I was sad to cut because that for people
who haven't seen it, I think it's called Curse of the Witch.

(10:24):
It is. Delicious.
It's. Wonderful.
Yeah, that's my favorite movie of all time is The Blair Witch
Project. So I would love to read
eventually if you find a home for what she wrote about.
Cursive. That would be awesome.
OK. Cool, I'll take it.
Now do you think, do you think Heather's innocent?
Because I'm big? Heather did nothing wrong.

(10:46):
Oh, big time. Yeah.
My theory on The Blair Witch Project is they made Heather the
Blair Witch like they they witchhaunted her and blamed her and
chased her out just like they did to Ellie Kemper.
Totally. No, the boys wanted, they wanted
her to be in charge so they could blame her and they she

(11:07):
tried to get them involved in the decision making and they
said no thank you. But then when they were in
trouble, they were like, you gotus here.
No justice for Heather. Totally.
Yes, Yes. So as you were writing that very
witch was there anything that really surprised you that you

(11:27):
found or anything that you like either went looking for and
didn't find or a point you endedup making that you didn't know
you would were going to make? Yeah, there are.
There were a couple of differentthings, I think a through line
that I didn't necessarily expect, but one that's very
close to my heart is the question of psychedelia in

(11:53):
relation to not only the witchesand archetype, but counter
culturalism in general. So it was really fun pulling on
that thread and seeing where psychedelia pops up unexpectedly
in these films, because once youstart looking for it, it's
everywhere. OK.

(12:14):
References to the counterculturein general.
They morph and they transform, but then they really do
consistently show up. And that's part of why I started
when I started, because America's understanding of the
witch is very much filtered through our our stereotype of
images of hippie, the hippie, hippie dumb.

(12:36):
Yeah. That was another thing that
surprised me. I I say in the intro that this
book is kind of my therapeutic way to understand how America
got here as a nation. Yeah.
And I have been researching thisbook for my weird to say, but

(12:57):
for my entire, like, real adult life, you know?
Yeah, Yeah. So I've been tracing it since we
started the whole Trump situation.
And on election night, I emailedmy lovely publisher because I'd
already turned in the proof and I was like, hey, I just need to

(13:18):
add like 2 sentences. I did not have to revise the
book at all because it was just tracing the history of how women
are perceived in this country is1 surefire way to understand
where we're going. So that's something that I think
was that I really wanted to comethrough.

(13:41):
That was a guiding principle andmy kind of political interest in
the subject in a lot of ways. Yeah, I, I love pointing that
out. I think this is an awesome way
to point that out to people and like a really relatable way to
point it out to horror fans who very occasionally we still have

(14:03):
to remind everybody that horror is political.
No matter what you want to think, it just is.
It's going to be, was there a part of the book that was like
hardest for you to write or maybe a part that you're like
proudest of? I'd say that the most intricate

(14:26):
section to write was Part 2, which is about the 80s, because
that has a bunch of, it seems potentially like it would be
easy to do because it's, it's a,you know, super open, poppy
blockbuster era of filming. But it there were several
different concerns and interlocking questions and

(14:48):
conundrums that arose writing that that definitely took the
nimblest and most complex form of argumentation.
The the fundamental question of that chapter is if the Satanic
panic is happening, where did the witches in the movies go?
Because oh, by the numbers, if you think about it, there are

(15:10):
not that many famous witches from the 80s.
You can think of like 2 movies off the Dome for like, you know,
your mainstream witch movies. Yeah, there really aren't many
that are coming to mind. Yeah, you've got the Witch of
Eastwick and you've got Elvira. And beyond that, they're really
just not as prominent as they were the decade before.

(15:31):
So that's one of my questions because there's there's a
literal witch craze happening inAmerica.
Right. Under Reagan.
So trying to explore that absence, exploring an absence is
a a question of nuance, yes. But beyond that, I also had to
watch more Bad Witch movie in the 80s.

(15:55):
Any other decade? I can't recommend almost any of
them. OK.
But like, there are a couple. That's the chapter where I'm
like, we're going to talk about why these movies didn't work.
OK, yeah. Are there any that you can
recommend? Like is there a the best 80s
witch movie? Yes, but it's kind of a sheet of

(16:16):
an answer. OK.
It's it's called the DevinsvilleTerror and it's never.
Heard of it? It's excellent.
It's by named Yuli Lomal and thereason it's technically an 80s
film but it's cheating is because it was just it took so
long to make that it was no longer the 70s when it was done.

(16:37):
Gotcha. Gotcha.
OK, OK, that still counts. And it's got the slasher
structure of an 80s movie. And it's got Donald Pleasants
being incredibly weird, so. That's all you had to say.
This is going on the Watch list,a slasher formula with Donald
Pleasants. I am seated.

(16:58):
And it's actually quite a feminist film.
OK, I love it. Oh, that sounds incredible.
OK, I'm going to write it down. Is there something that you hope
readers take away from this book?
I think my approach to history, the thing that I take some

(17:23):
semblance of comfort in, is its breadth.
I think understanding our present is impossible without
understanding our past, and I hope that people can find a
similar sense of groundedness ina Longview.

(17:46):
It's also one of those things where originally I wanted to be
a sociologist and I switched to film because I realized I could
do sociology through media and I'm not mad.
And it's more aging to people, like this is how we understand
the world. But I think it also runs the

(18:07):
risk, like being a film critic, I think is an interesting place
to be. And you can get into all of this
jargony nonsense about the crisis of authority.
And, you know, if we all have phones, like, what's the reason
to have a film critic at all? Like where anybody's at,
whatever, it's fine. I love that everyone, there is
something about watching all of these films and analyzing them

(18:29):
seriously. But I think it's like it's not
gamified. It's giving dignity to objects
that are not necessarily dignified or designed to be
given dignity. And so I want people to be able
to walk away with the feeling that anything has value and

(18:50):
anything can be taken seriously as a political object because we
are swimming in politics. The personal is the political,
not in the tokenized way, but inthe sense that we are all
Political Animals swimming in a sea of politics.
And. If you if you kind of dust
everything for fingerprints, youcan feel that come through and

(19:11):
it'll, it'll give you a little more agency, right?
And particularly in a moment where they are they, they who
shall not be named American, American administrators of this
moment are working to systematically undercut not only
our education, but our media literacy.
Our media literacy is under threat by ChatGPT, by mega

(19:36):
studios who want us to be engaging in quote UN quote,
second screen content even. Oh my God.
Right. So yeah, everything can be read.
They're meant to be read. Movies are for reading.
Reading is for reading. And enjoy that activity because
it it's powerful, it's helpful, and it's so much more fucking
fun, man. Like it's a fun that's that's my

(20:00):
screed answer. To I I want to stand up and just
clap. I mean, yes, absolutely.
As somebody who, like, watched all of the torture porn garbage
I could and took it very, very seriously.
Yes, art is meant to be thought about and enjoyed.
Totally. What else do you want people to

(20:20):
know about your book before theypick it up?
I think something else I try to do is blend the popular and the
academic. So it's a it's a non fiction
book. But again, I try to treat it
like a story. We're gonna learn some film

(20:41):
theory. We're gonna learn some, you
know, political theory. But mostly you could read it as
a guide to some fun and funky movies to watch.
There's so many different ways to read it.
And yeah, I think it's been interesting seeing people react
to it differently because I havesome friends who are political

(21:04):
nerds and historians who were like, yeah, you know, the, the
film stuff. I had no idea about this, you
know, but like, do you need to add this bit of historical
context? Like, don't people already know
that? First of all, no they don't.
They sure don't, yeah. They sure don't.
It's like, you know, my publisher is Scottish.
And that was lovely because I, as you know, an American would

(21:25):
set things offhand and she would, in her little notes back
to me, she'd be like, I have no idea what this means, you know?
That's so. That's such a good note.
Yeah, yeah. So footnotes explaining how the
Supreme Court hearings work, youknow, or like what Riot Girl is.

(21:48):
Oh, yeah, totally. Riot girl.
That that phrase might not be known even to young, young
people in America. Like, I think that is.
Yeah, that makes your book more readable to everybody, more
accessible. And I'll say I haven't finished
it yet, but I am enjoying it. It is very readable.

(22:09):
And you really can read it a lotof different ways.
Like if you wanted to skip around and read about your
favorite movies, you could do that or you could consume it as
a history text. And I'm someone who I need
stories to get on board with history.
Like, it just doesn't hold my attention unless there's a
story. And like, this book is giving me

(22:30):
that. So I'm looking forward to
finishing it so that I could like, give you the five star
rating you deserve. But I'm getting there.
Yeah, well, thank you. That's so good to hear.
Yeah, like, yeah, so, so going in, know that it's not scary to
read non fiction. People are intimidated.

(22:50):
And if you know a lot about movies, there's gonna be some
history you don't know. And if you know a lot about
history, there are gonna be somemovies you don't know.
And we're just here to have a good time.
Absolutely, I love it. So where and when can people
order a copy of that very witch?It is currently available for
pre-order on my publishers website.

(23:14):
You can Google me. You can Google the title of the
book, it will come up. Or you can go to my Instagram
which I will inevitably have to plug anyway so it's at paid
place and I have the pre-order link in my bio.
Eventually it will be available where books are sold.

(23:34):
The physical copies come out on July 22nd, but I will be doing
lots of events leading up to it and the rest.
Yes, listeners, we'll put a linkin the show notes for the
pre-order so you can just hop right down there and get your
pre-order on. Do you know are they shipping
physical copies internationally?Yeah, because my publisher is

(23:56):
Scottish, so absolutely it's international for me to get it.
I love that. OK, yeah.
So we do have a lot of international listeners, so
you're not left out. You can get a physical copy and
put it on your shelf by all yourwitch movies, which is what you
should do. So follow Peyton on Instagram.
Order their. Book and let's all learn some

(24:17):
witch history. Peyton, thanks so much for being
here. Thank.
You this is so fun. Yes.