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July 20, 2025 155 mins

When there's no more room in Hell, it's tome to podcast. The Summer of George continues as Mike is joined by Brian and Nichole to talk about what many consider the greatest zombie movie of all time, George Romero's Dawn of the Dead. We explore its significance in the zombie genre and its cultural commentary on consumerism and societal issues, along with the long road to getting it made. We also talk about why there are so many dan versions of this movie and analyze the portrayal of disability, gender dynamics, and consumerism within the film, while also discussing the impact of Romero's legacy in the horror genre. Pack a lunch folks, it's a big one.

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Transcript

Episode Transcript

Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:21):
I proclaim this the summer of George.
Hello everyone, and welcome to the Pod and the Pendulum, the

(00:42):
show that covers all the franchises, one movie and one
episode at a time. And this week we continue with
the Summer of George with a title that many people continue
with a title that many people consider the greatest zombie of
all time, 1978's Dawn of the Dead, written and directed by 1

(01:05):
George A Romero. And that is a question I think
we'll tackle tonight, like whether or not this is really
the pinnacle of the zombie sub genre.
But I'm not alone. We've made room on the chopper
for the Co hosts, although one of them is not here.
So I guess we kicked him off like he's just like, couldn't
make it, so threw him out somewhere over Monroeville.

(01:29):
There's no more room in hell. Sorry Flyboy, up first.
She is from the Bodies of Horrorpodcast.
It's been a little bit Miss Nicole Goble.
Don't call her a dead mother 'cause she will cut you down.
Nicole, how are we? Doing great.
Glad to be here to talk about this movie.

(01:52):
And you are in the sweltering heat of DC right now, like it is
hot here, but you're saying you're hitting triple digits.
Yeah, I think the the real feel went above and beyond 100 today.
So as someone that walks. Oh no.
Just over a mile to and from youwork and then a mile plus from

(02:17):
work. The home, it's a, it's a Tridge.
But you know what? I love DC and I love being able
to see the pups on my way home. That's how everything is, Being
able to see people taking their dogs out and being able to talk
to the dogs. Who would love Telluride?

(02:38):
Also with us from Bloody Disgusting and the new podcast
called Holy Terrors. Mr. Brian Kuiper, How are we?
I'm doing good. I also have a dog and two cats
and the dog's a puppy and he was, I don't know, the cats were
swatting at him a lot and stuff.But apparently my son told me

(03:00):
today that the dog got upstairs and the cat and he and the cat
were just like laying down next to each other.
So that's that's great. News Love it.
I so welcome to the Dogs and Cats Living Together Mass
Hysteria podcast. Love to hear it That is the

(03:20):
content we are here for Well, really quick before we dive into
this movie, let's do a little bit of housekeeping.
So we're asking you if you are new to the show and you want to
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(03:43):
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(04:04):
Like I actually was digging through, we found like a bunch
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in the pendulum dot. All our episodes are listed
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(04:24):
If you really like what we're doing, please consider becoming
a patron today by going to patreon.com/pod in the Pendulum.
We have close to 70 episodes up at this point of bonus material,
including Brian. I actually need you to resend to
me the audio for Shadow of the Vampire because I uploaded it

(04:47):
incorrectly and have no idea what I did with it afterwards,
which I thought I saved it in three places.
Well, I did not. Well, here's hoping I still have
it. Oh God.
I I think I probably do it had amy computer was being crazy.
So I will. Oh, no, hopefully.

(05:07):
It's so weird. I keep every file, I keep
everything, and this is like theone that I can't find.
It's great and I have them backed up so, but we have tons
of stuff there. We're supposed to do Back to the
Future. At some point.
I need to recruit folks to do that, but we're going to cover
that series. We have tons of horror stuff up,
like our talk on 28 Years Later,our talk on Sinners.

(05:30):
We have a lot of film noir up there as well.
But it's a great, great way to hear more of us for a couple
bucks a month. patreon.com/pod of the Pendulum.
And that is it for housekeeping.For now, let's get our initial
thoughts in on Romero's Dawn of the Dead.
And Nicole, you, you know, you're new to us.

(05:50):
Not new to us, Nicole, Like you weren't on the last episode.
So we didn't even get to talk about like, what is your feeling
on like the zombie sub genre as a whole?
And then this particular film, like when did you first
encounter this movie? I had this movie.
I actually encountered it through.
So I'd seen Night of the Living Dead really, really young and

(06:17):
thought it was really different and unsettling and interesting
and I really liked it. But for some reason the chunk of
Romero's films had just not really, I guess, like, hit with
me. I did really like The Crazies
and Martin a lot, but I just like his other zombie films that

(06:42):
I just hadn't seen. So I think he was right after
college and X was really into all of Romero's films and was
like, you have to see this. Hell, you're not speaking it.
And I watched it and I fell in love.
Just, I love the humor. And I just think that, again,

(07:09):
this is Romero making really poignant societal commentary and
doing it in such an amazing way.It's always hard when you go
back and you watch any kind of film that is beyond a certain
number of years old, because there's always going to be terms

(07:29):
and phrases and things that werejust like, wow, people really
just said this all the time and it was fine.
Kids say the dardest things. Yeah, but I really love this.
And I swear that one of the phrases that I say all the time,
probably at least once a month, is my God, are we going to an

(07:52):
indoor shopping center just because the novelty of that will
never escaping the way that the the news reporters are like an
indoor shopping center just mindblowing.
It's perfect. I love it.
And I also one thing that reallysticks with me with this film

(08:12):
also is I love how visceral the gore is terms of like these are
zombies that are really digging into their food.
They want to like tear it from the flesh.
This is Michelin star you're savouring and I love this.
I did for a movie night that a friend did.

(08:38):
We watched the Dawn of the Dead remake and also I want to say we
watched the original Night of the Living Dead and I made a 20
slide presentation about slow zombies versus fast zombies.
PowerPoints. Yes.
Because I live in Al Gore's Internet and so because he

(09:03):
invented the Internet and also PowerPoint, very important to
me. And so I made a presentation
before both films. I said let me break down fast
moving and slow moving zombies. The pros and cons of each and
why we always, regardless of howfast or slow they're moving.
It's just we hate children zombies.

(09:24):
It all comes out to that. It's just the children.
Zombies are always the worst. So you had a whole presentation.
20 slides. Love it 20 slide well researched
APA format or MLA? No straight APA and then I also
had a slide which documented my footnotes and also included

(09:48):
clips and also scenery enactmentof different things.
So just really a fully immersiveexperience for everyone there
that was just there to have drinks and watch movies.
So at what point were they like would you how long is this going

(10:09):
on for Nicole? Like when does this slide 2 by
slide 2, they were done excellent.
Love it. What?
I'm like, no, stay with me. This is so like, you're gonna be
drunk, but you're gonna know some shit when you walk out of
your Uber, and here's why. I love this, I love this for

(10:30):
you. I love that for you.
Like your movie nights are neverjust movie nights, they're
educational experiences. Brian, how about yourself?
What has been your experience with Dawn?
Well, I had heard of Night of the Living Dead, I'm sure.
But I remember distinctly I had a, My uncle was a huge horror

(10:56):
guy and I was sort of becoming interested in it in the video
store days. And I remember distinctly going
down to visit with my mom and mybrother going to visit him.
And my grandma lived with him atthe time with my uncle.
And so we were tasked, my uncle and myself with going to the

(11:18):
video store to gather the nightsentertainment.
And so it was an old mom and popstore.
I remember like, you know, 2 by 4 shelves and stuff like that.
It was pretty awesome. Naturally, we weren't going to
get a horror movie, but he knew how much I loved horror movies.
So we're like, we're looking in the horror section.

(11:40):
Yeah. And I don't remember.
What teas? Yeah.
I know well. Why don't you go look?
Well, The thing is, my grandma, my mom were especially were
going to be like no, just no. I mean, I was probably 7 years
old too, you know, I mean, this was this was the early days and

(12:02):
so and I still remember him pointing to the cover of dawn of
the dead. And it wasn't the one with the
bald, you know, the, the famous,you know, image that we have now
of the, the bald zombie that looks like it's rising a rising
sun. It's not that one.

(12:24):
It was just an image of the zombie Roger.
And it's like 3 different photographs of him in different
like standing up, like rising up, you know.
And, and it's had like a yellow,everything else was yellow and
background and stuff. And Dawn of the Dead, it was
like, and he just pointed at that and said now that is a

(12:46):
great horror movie and I hadn't even heard of it.
I had known about Night of the Living Dead.
I think because of Beetlejuice. She says are you gross under
there? Are you Night of the Living Dead
under there? Oh boy.
Yeah. So I think that's about, that
was about the extent of my knowledge at that point.

(13:08):
So maybe I was more like 10, butstill.
Anyway, I I remember we rented all of Me with Steve Martin and
Lily Tomlin that night. I love how your uncle was like,
not only can you go look, I'm going to point out a specific
horror movie and be like, here'sa great one that you can't

(13:28):
watch. Now we're going to watch Herbie
the Love bug. There you go.
Let's go kids. You're getting, you're getting
Superman 4 Quest for peace. That's well, I, I at the time I
was like obsessed with Nightmareat Elm Street because that, that
poster still just haunted me from the moment I first saw it.

(13:51):
And so now I have it behind me. But the, so that was just like
this moment. And then I remember seeing, I
got like Fangoria and stuff and seeing like the helicopter
zombie shot and different thingslike that were in there.
And I can't remember when I finally saw it, but I got this

(14:14):
VHS. It was like A2 tape set that had
that had a picture of them in the of Ken Foury and the gas
mask on the side of it. And that really kind of freaked
me out. And I was really disturbed by
the first part of this movie when I first saw it.
I mean, that stuff in the tenement and everything was just

(14:36):
like, horrifying to me. It really freaked me out, but
also was fascinating and intriguing.
And this was the coolest thing in its own way.
And I revisited it. Not as much as the others.
Zombies are kind of for me. I'd like a lot of zombie, zombie

(14:57):
movies, but I don't love a lot of zombie movies.
This is 1 I love, though, I'll say that.
I do think, I mean, this discussion of is it the greatest
I think is going to come later. So I'll save my thoughts on
that. But I have some some things
about that as well. Yeah.
It's funny 'cause I was listening to a couple different

(15:18):
shows and they were going through all the Romero films and
there is one show and I respect a lot, but they were saying how
Dawn of the Dead is the actual like birth of the zombie sub
genre as we know it. Like it's not really Night of
the Living Dead, it's this one. And it's kind of a hard disagree
for me because I feel like this one builds on the things of

(15:40):
Night of the Living Dead and expands on them a bit.
But it's like the same type of zombie, the same type of monster
in both movies. They don't necessarily do
anything different because even at night, this suggests it's not
expressed verbally. But the implication is there

(16:02):
that like they can use like verybasic tools and they remember a
little bit of their old life. So even that idea, which is
something that gets played with like a lot more in Day of the
Dead and then expanded on in Land of the Dead, don't love
this movie like other people do.I I appreciate the ambition of

(16:23):
this movie. I appreciate the scale of the
movie and I appreciate that Romero is really world building
here on what he did with the Night of the living Dead.
But what I I appreciate maybe about all of these movies is
although they kind of build likea very cohesive world.
You can jump in on any of the movies.

(16:45):
It's not like other franchises where, you know, if you jump
into like Saw Five, you're kind of screwed.
You're not going to know what's going on here.
He builds a very cohesive world that you can jump in on any
point, and I think that's great.And I love how he got to do more

(17:06):
in terms of the scale. Although at the end of the day,
it just becomes like another Siege movie, just in a much
bigger place. And I think that's kind of like
an issue I have with a lot of the Reparo zombie movies.
They just become like we're going to hold up in one location
over and over again. So I find myself like getting

(17:31):
really invested in this movie. I have no idea.
The first time I saw it, I saw clips of it.
I could not remember the first time I've watched this thing
from start to finish. I know that like the first 30
minutes, like everything before they get to the mall, I'm very
invested in. Like it zips, There's a kinetic
energy to it, it there's almost a whiplash effect in terms of

(17:54):
the editing, in terms of like how they're going from location
to location. And I find like once they get to
the mall, I start checking out of the movie.
Like, that just drags for me. And it's what the movie is most
known for. And it might have been because
like the first cut I watched forthis was the extended cut at 2

(18:16):
hours and 20 minutes, and that feels ponderous at times.
Yeah, I'm not sure that I've seen.
The thing is, I said, you said that, hey, let's watch the
theatrical cut for this. I was like, great.
I think it might be my first time seeing it actually.
I don't think that's true. I'm pretty sure that I've seen
the theatrical cut much more often, even though.

(18:38):
I think I was thrown because that VHSI mentioned said, you
know, the uncut version, you know, because it's, it's
unrated, you know, it's always been unrated.
So I don't know if I've seen that whole can cut.
I did do something I hadn't donebefore though, was I watched the

(19:00):
Argento cut a couple days ago aswell, just out of curiosity.
And there's some things that I think it does better.
I think it moves in certain spots better, but I I miss
things like the gonk at the end.And I mean, come on, Don, Don,
there's. One scene I really miss at the
in the Argento cut that if I think if they kept that I would

(19:22):
like it more overall than Romero's cut.
I definitely had some questions about some of the choices Romero
made, especially when it comes to music.
Well, sure, sure. And I think that another thing
that seemed to pop out to me more in the Argento cut was even
some of the interview stuff withthe scientists seemed to be

(19:45):
longer. It seemed to have more of that
than the than. Yeah.
And we'll talk about like each of those cuts here in like how
they differ from one another andsome of the reasons why there
are so many cuts I found like I went from the.
And unfortunately, like for streaming purposes, the only one

(20:06):
you can purchase I believe is the extended cut, which is the
two hour and 20 minute long one which I bought.
I was like 9 bucks. It's like, why not?
If you go onto YouTube, you can find really good versions of all
three cuts. And I'll just say that like I'll
just say. Isn't the extended cut elements

(20:28):
of kind of all the other pieces shown?
Yep. Together, which I think is
honestly quite quite a strong, like I'm always leery of like
the extended cuts because I feelit's just like this was like it
wasn't in the theatrical cut fora reason, but we want to put it

(20:54):
here because we shot it and it doesn't really add a whole lot.
I really like the extended cut because I think it does a nice
balance, but I do have a preference.
Yeah, it's almost like a work printer.
It's what they took with them toto premiere at Con's and then
they knew they were going to whittle it from there.

(21:15):
And we'll talk about that here as we kind of get into the movie
and we get into the background alittle bit.
So we'll talk about that right now.
Oh, Romero is approach like after Night of the Living Dead
hits and it's a smash hit. He's report approached

(21:35):
repeatedly for a follow up to the Night of Living Dead, but he
wants to do other things first that we'll get to in a moment.
But eventually the idea for Don Commons and Romero is touring
the Monroeville Mall with his buddy and commercial real estate
developer Mark Mason. And Mason makes a comment as

(21:55):
they're touring and again, mallsat that time, it's the mid 70s.
They're a novelty. Like, they're not something that
anyone had been used to. Like, you have 100 stores and
department stores under one roof, and we can do all our
shopping here. Like, wah, it's just one.
It's a new experience. And Mason makes a comment that

(22:20):
it's a sort of facility that would be great to hole up in
during a disaster. And that sparked something in
Romero. Like, he's really struck by that
image and inspiration hits him to set out for this, the script.
So as one might expect, funding for Don's a struggle.
There's little if any funding raised domestically for the

(22:42):
project. And it's really not until Romero
meets, like, the Italian master horror Dario Agento that the
budget comes together. When Argento hears like through
the Grapevine. Romero is developing a sequel
tonight. He makes a deal with Romero and
Romero's new producer, Richard Rubenstein.

(23:03):
Like Argento's like, I'll come on board as a producer as well.
Argento and Romero, they meet inRome and Argento's invitation.
And Argento's like, I want you to stay here so you can kind of
work on the screenplay in peace.And they also collaborate on
some of the story points together.
So as we kind of get to when we get to the release, like

(23:24):
Argento's going to get distribution rights for the
European version of this film and Romero's going to retain
domestic rights. And Argento also works in he can
cut the European version as he sees fit.
Like Romero will get final edit for the US, Argento will get

(23:44):
final edit for Europe, and Romero is OK with that.
So we'll kind of talk about someof the differences, but what you
see are like exposition scenes that are cut and moves at a bit
of a faster pace. He does remove some of the
characterization between our 4 core members and also a lot of

(24:06):
the humor that Romero infused his film yet with.
The big addition is his film uses all of the prog rock metal
band Goblin Score, and it's really impressive.
It's a really, if there's one thing Argento's cut does better
than Romero's, it's the use of Goblin Score, and they're also

(24:28):
credited as goblins in the credits.
Nicole, you're shaking your head.
Do you disagree? I do I I love Goblin and
obviously their connection to Argento is legendary.
Like you work with them extensively and I I like their

(24:50):
music a ton, but there's something so special about the
stock music in the Romero cut that just puts a fine point.
Red line undermine I you the commentary.
I would also call it special, but I would call it special in a

(25:11):
way that would get me cancelled in 2025, so I'm not going to do
that. I don't intend, intend to be
the, you know, the Devon in thisepisode.
And just to disagree with everything Mike says.
Wow but he slept you 20 bucks. You did, Sure.

(25:32):
But I actually agree with Nicole.
I actually love OK. And it's not that I don't like
the music of Goblin. I think the score is good.
I actually really like it. And there's a lot of things in
it that were that were used in both cuts, it seems like.
But I also felt that there were sometimes when the score was

(25:57):
intrusive, like there was too much of it.
And so there were a couple of scenes where I was like, why is
there music here? It just felt really weird to me.
And then I'm sorry, I'm I've gotmy old lady granny glasses
perched on my nose here because I'm wearing my contact lenses
and I can't read close up with those in.

(26:19):
So I'm wearing I'm wearing these.
So sorry about that. But so Nicole, I'm, I'm kind of
with you. And and also, I'm sorry that I
think it's called the Donk the that that song is iconic.
I mean, that is to me, when I think of Dawn of the Dead music,
I think of, you know, and they used it for the end of Robot
Chicken and different things like that, I think.

(26:40):
It's hilarious. It returns the Day of the Dead
very briefly. Yeah, and they used it in Shawn
of the Dead. I mean, it's, it's just sort of
like there's something about it that I that I really appreciate
and enjoy, but. I think you also have to put it
in the context of the setting, which is, you know, we're
talking about malls, right? Yeah.

(27:02):
So malls has that really unobtrusive but noticeable
background noise that you both can say, oh, it's this song or
it's this Muzak version of this song or whatever the case may
be. And I really think that Romero

(27:25):
was extremely smart with where he was cutting in.
I think where he has the goblin score is perfect.
It is very unsettling. It is very perfect and just
roots you and kind of a vibe that he wants to to set down.
But then you get this kind of canned music and you're like, we

(27:50):
are now in ridiculous land And Ihe's trying to make a point
about like, well, they're just going to a place where they
remember and they don't. Having a mind doesn't matter.
You can still shop and be a consumer and not think and eat
other people's brains and they can also then still I couch go

(28:17):
to the the ice rink stains are I'd I have to like lay down on
the floor and laugh for like 5 minutes.
What zombies? Ice skating.
Wow. Yeah, there are.
How good and I think we'll get to it when we talk about the

(28:39):
movie. I think that's where the film
loses me is. Oh, that's the stuff I love the
most, OK. Yeah, I am just a very well, as
everyone knows, I'm a very serious person.
I. Know it's I'm actually kind of
it's. I'm like Sam the Eagle over
here. Yeah, well, I mean, it's funny
that cuz I, I guess my thought was of these.

(29:03):
I know you're not a huge Romero fan.
You've said that before, but I was thinking he's got to love
Dawn. I mean, it's just got all that
weird humor and stuff like that.So I was just kind of kind of
surprised. But hey I mean everyone has
different opinions. If it's because I watched, I
watched Night of the Living Deadso much in preparation for that

(29:27):
first episode that I was just prepped for another very serious
movie. And I could not get into that
mindset of like, why are we hitting zombies in the face with
pie? Like, what are we?
What are we doing? That seems a little over the top
for me too, but you know, hey. I'm going to turn things over to

(29:48):
you for a minute, Brian. Maybe you can talk to us a bit
about why Romero might have beenso keen to return to the world
of the living Dead after night after in the intervening years,
what happened? Sure.
And it took him a while obviously, to do that over a
decade. But after Night of the Living
Dead, their production company, The Latent Image, got a little

(30:12):
bump in its work, especially after the movie sort of went
overseas and there wasn't hugelysuccessful right away of like
went overseas and it came back and got all these midnight show
screenings. It's one of the great midnight
show movies. And it just gathered this
massive cult following. And so The Latent Image, I got a

(30:33):
bump in demand for its work, including its commercials and
political campaign films. Now, one of these is a
documentary called Lenore about the unsuccessful gubernatorial
candidate Eleanor Romney. That's right, George Romney's

(30:53):
wife and Mitt's mom. OK, so 23 year old Mitt Romney
is interviewed in that film. So he they were taking jobs
left, right, whether they agreedwith the politics or not.
There's actually because obviously Romero was not a fan
of Nixon and these people were all kind of in the Nixon circle.

(31:16):
So that that was just an interesting thing that I saw.
OK, so they made, he was offeredlike right away to make another
zombie movie out in Hollywood. But the fact is, I don't think
he wanted to go. He didn't want to leave
Pittsburgh. I think that's what it came down
to. He didn't want to be part of
that particular kind of filmmaking that Hollywood

(31:38):
represented, so they scrapped together money for three feature
films through the Latent Image. The first was There's Always
Vanilla, which is a romantic comedy that Romero considered a
mess and his worst film. Did he see the dark half?
I haven't even seen the dark half so I don't know.

(32:02):
I love the movie. Song.
I haven't seen it. I loved the book.
It was one of the first Stephen King books I read.
Yeah, then Season of the Witch Witch.
Now, I don't, I can't confirm this, but to me, it's
essentially the same story as Fritz Leiber's book The Conjure
Wife, which had been made into amovie called Night of the Eagle.

(32:23):
And in the United States it was called Burn, Witch Burn, by the
way, that's a freaking great classic horror movie.
What? A great name.
Yeah, and Season of the Witch isa pretty good movie.
It's not it's not really clean, it's very low budget, very
exploitation, really rough around the edges.
And the best known of the three now is the crazies.

(32:46):
Now none of these were successful at the time.
In fact, they lost money on all of them.
Season the Witch and the craziesbecame cult classics over time.
And of course the crazies was remade in 2010.
I recently I watched I rewatchedthe crazies also for this and I

(33:06):
don't know man doesn't really doit for me but I.
Watched the remake recently and same it was as like 2010 as a
horror as a big budget horror movie could be for the better
and worse that is like it. Found it really hard to stay
engaged with it. Yeah, it's sort of the Night of

(33:29):
the Living Dead story from the point of view of the National
Guard is what is kind of what itis, more or less.
I mean, there's the you don't, you don't see a lot going on
with the infected, as it were. So I know that you're a fan.
You said you liked the Crazies, Nicole, So I don't want to just
leave it at that necessarily. But you know, so so people, you

(33:53):
were an extra in the Crazies remake.
Yeah, it was filmed in a very small town about 30 minutes
South of where I grew up on 3045minutes.
It was shot at a local high school there.
I did the scenes, the intro baseball scene and then I did

(34:18):
the the night time, everyone being moved through the tents.
Yeah. That's cool.
We'll have to look out for that.I haven't seen the the remake in
a long time. I saw it once many many years
ago and I remember enjoying it and so I I might give that 1A
look again, but I don't. I don't know.

(34:40):
I I sorry. But I don't trust you, Mike.
Well, when it came out, you shouldn't when it came out in
theaters like I really enjoyed it and then I re walks.
I own it on Blu-ray in re watch it and I just found it like very
hard to kind of engage with. I think it like it goes on a bit

(35:01):
too long like the it's got a Bangor of an opening at the
baseball stadium, like a really good setup and premise and there
are some great individual scenes.
But it I think it kind of just suffers from like what a lot of
films. There's too much movie there,
but. It's so Iowa.

(35:23):
It's Iowa. There you go.
OK, that's fair. That's fair.
So anyway, after those movies, just mounting debts and simply
growing up kind of broke the company apart in the early 70s.
Not that they didn't, not that their friendships, you know,
were all ruined or whatever, butthey just sort of grew apart and

(35:47):
we're going to separate ways. In the early 70s, Romero
connected with producer Richard Rubenstein, who was able to get
Romero some gigs, like the amusement park, which has sort
of recently found its way to shutter in different places,
which was sponsored by the Lutheran Services to shine a

(36:09):
light on the treatment of seniorcitizens and encourage
participation in the Meals on Wheels program.
That was initially what it was for.
And what it is, though, is something really different.
It's, it's I, I don't know if you guys have all seen that, but
it's an interesting film. It's creepy.
It is filled with this existential dread about aging.

(36:31):
It is honestly, in some ways like his scariest work because
it's rooted in a sort of realityand it's it's disturbing in a
good way. Brilliant.
I think it's like exploration ofthe intersection of ageism and
ableism. Yep.

(36:52):
And it's absolutely incredible. I love it.
Yeah, yeah. I remember thinking it was
really, I've only watched it theone time.
It's kind of a hard watch in a way too, you know, because
because it is so devastating in a lot of ways, just the
treatment of this poor guy. But it's a, yeah, it's a

(37:12):
fascinating piece of of work. But he also made several, like,
short documentary films for ABC television series called The
Winners. The 1st And the most successful
of these was OJ Simpson. Juice on the Loose.
You can't make this stuff up, man.
It's so weird remembering a timebecause Brian, you and I are old

(37:35):
enough to remember. Like when OJ Simpson was hailed
as a hero. Like maybe one of the most
beloved sportsman in the country.
One of the movies bring up my uncle again.
One of the movies I remember watching with my grandma and my
uncle and my brother and my mom was The Naked Gun and Oh yeah,

(37:56):
to have OJ Simpson was like. So.
What a weird. 22 quick diversions.
Like really quick number one on the Naked gun.
I read an article recently that seemed ridiculous on its face,
but it said The Naked Gun might be the most important film

(38:18):
released this summer. And I'm like, that's silly.
And then you think about it, it's like, yeah, because we have
not gotten a big studio comedy in 3000 screens in how long,
when it used to be the easiest thing in the world to do.
And it's a test to see can we actually have these huge.

(38:42):
And I would argue that even morethan horror, comedy is like the
best type of film to watch in a theater.
Like there's nothing better. And like what's become copy
comedy is we'll put jokes in a horror movie, we'll put jokes in
a superhero movie. And that's different from
comedy. So I fingers crossed hope that

(39:04):
like the early word on the NakedGun reboot is very strong.
I think that Liam Neeson might be the most inspired bit of
casting in a film ever. And it looks like he gets the
assignment. But also OJ Simpson.
Cameron thought of using him as the Terminator in 1984.

(39:27):
As the Terminator, it was told. Nobody will believe OJ Simpson
is a bad guy. That's how beloved he was.
Like that is crazy. Speaking of comedies playing
well in the theatre, I took my son to see Spinal Tap and they
did a theatrical release and it wasn't a packed theatre, but
there were a lot of people in there that were fans of the
movie and it played so well. I was like, I don't know if he's

(39:50):
going to get this. I don't know, because it doesn't
play well if you watch it by yourself at home.
Yep. Or with a couple people.
It just doesn't. Yeah.
I mean, if unless you've seen it, you know, 27 times, like I
have, but but seeing it in a theater with people laughing and
that's just that's the way comedy is supposed to play.

(40:11):
It just goes better. That goes to 11.
I love it. So he learned quite a bit,
especially from these documentaries.
He made several of them with Reggie Jackson and some other
people and especially as an editor, it seems that was where
he really refined his skills as an editor and some other things

(40:35):
like that. The next film was Martin, which
debuted at Cannes in 1977 and itactually made its money back and
The Crazies was re released about the same time.
So he was starting to get a little bit of mojo, a little bit
of attention. I think those are some of the
things that helped him be able to get some cash from Dario

(41:00):
Gento and elsewhere to to get the film actually made,
especially on the reputation by,I mean by 1977 or 78 of Night of
the Living Dead was able to get that going.
So that brings us up to speed, Ithink.
Excellent. Well, in terms of the cast and

(41:22):
crew, like Brian, you mentioned,Romero did not want to really
work within the Hollywood system.
And he probably has like most ofhis success outside of it, to be
fair to him. Like you'll find, I think when
we talk about either Land or Diary of the Dead, like we'll
talk about Romero saying he actually made more money in

(41:44):
Hollywood not making movies, like putting things in
development deals that never gotmade.
He actually made more money not working than he actually did,
like working on Hollywood production.
So, but in terms of his cast, like he does have like a
production crew that is he's very loyal to that.
Like work with him and it's a small professional acting cast,

(42:08):
but no one that had really broken out is a lot of unknowns.
And I would say his movies work because of that.
Like his movies work because that you don't know them.
So you can't project like, oh, here's how I know this performer
from other movies. I find horror in particular
works well with that. And you mentioned Martin, like

(42:30):
John Ampless, who starred in Martin, he has a small role here
in some very unfortunate brown face.
But he also was one of like, thecasting directors as well.
Like he was in charge of gettinga lot of the extras and finding
some crew, but. The guy, the guy with the, I'm

(42:51):
sorry, the, the guy with the eyepatch in this movie.
I can't remember the actor's name, and so that's going to
bother me, but you know the. Francis Ford Copa.
Destroyed on site. Yeah, the guy, the guy with the,
the, the, the, Yeah, he does look a lot like Francis Ford
Coppola. He is also in in the Crazies,

(43:16):
and so that sort of stood out assomething to me because it's
like he's essentially playing the same character in both
movies, which is kind of interesting.
He's a little more amped up in this version.
Joseph Pilato is like is Rhodes in Day of the Dead.
He has a much bigger role in Day, but he has a small role

(43:36):
here as well. But at the top we have David MG,
who had a couple credits before Dawn in The Devil and Sam
Silverstein and the Liberation of Cherry Janowski.
He was like working as a chef inNew York City when he met with
Romero and Romero's like this guy would be a great choice for

(43:59):
my next film. He was also a college roommate
of Ron Glass, who starred in theTV sitcom Barney Miller, which
was one of my dad's favourites growing up.
And he was also like the preacher in the show Firefly in
the movie Serenity. Like they were college

(44:20):
roommates. Ken Foray, who I think horror
fans probably know best. Like he's probably the most
recognizable of these. Like he would go on to have like
a pretty long career in genre films, including Texas Chainsaw
3, Leatherface. He's appeared in the Rob a lot
of the Rob Zombie films. He's Joe Grizzly bitch in Rob

(44:42):
Zombies Halloween, which some movie I like more and more every
time I watch it. And I hated that movie
originally. Better than Carpenters.
Who can say who can judge? It's not.
It's not. Let's see.
One of these days I'm going to rewatch I I like zombies
Halloween too but I really I love.

(45:03):
This Halloween too. I really struggle.
And that's understandable. I appreciate it more and more
when I watch it. It's not incredible, but I mean,
come on, it's better than resurrection.
So let's. Be here, I'll give it that I'll.
Give it that. I think after I started to turn
around on it after the David Gordon Green films, not that I

(45:26):
don't like those movies, but just like anyway.
Ken Foray, he's a friend of Night of the Living dead star
Dwayne Jones, who told Foray before the addition like say
hello to George for me, like hima little howdy do there.
It's only his second film role, but he is kind of horror royalty
like he's been in from beyond, Phantom of the Mall, Eric's

(45:48):
revenge. You mentioned Texas Chainsaw 3
and he does have a small cameo in the Dawn of the Dead remake.
I believe he's like the preacheryou see on television and that
give me one moment here. Roger Scott H Ringer.
He was. That's a note from Steven.
He is the only one of the main quartet not born in Stevens,

(46:11):
home state of Indiana. He was born in New York and he
was also working as a Lady Astors, the restaurant that
David MG was working at during the addition process.
And when dining at the restaurant, Christine Forrest,
who was Romero's girlfriend, later his wife convinced Ryan

(46:33):
and Jared like, hey, you should audition for my man's next film.
So they kind of got, I think they found out like the same day
that they got cast in. We're pretty buddy buddy, which
is kind of interesting because like the dynamic in the film is
you have M GS flyboy Steven, whonever feels like he kind of
measures up to Rodger. So it's kind of interesting the

(46:56):
chemistry there. Galen Ross, this was her first
professional acting role ever, which is kind of amazing because
she really, I think, knocks thisrole out of the park.
Like I think she's pretty incredible in this.
At her addition, Romero asks herto scream and she's like, Nope,
not going to do it. This would weaken what she felt

(47:19):
was a really strong character and Romero was like, I like
that. Like to take Romero's credit,
he's like, oh, this is great. She would become a director in
her own right. She's directed several
documentaries including the award-winning Kill Killing
Castor about Rudolf Castor who bargained with elder Eichmann

(47:41):
for the lives of over like a 1500 Hungarian Jews during the
Holocaust during World War 2. So on the crew we mentioned
before Richard Rubinstein who became Romero's producer after
working with Romero on the amusement park and Martin they
Co found Laurel Entertainment after Romero's previous company

(48:05):
goes belly up. Laura would later on merge with
Aaron Spelling Productions in the late 80s and that's when
Romero and Rubenstein's partnership kind of goes belly
up as well, which means Romero does not get any of that nine O
21-O in Melrose Place coin, which is again, very

(48:28):
unfortunate. Just really quick Romero
directing episodes of The OC Give it to me.
I want that, you know, just inject it right into my
eyeballs. Right.
Now, Rubenstein, he maintains control of some of these movies,

(48:49):
doesn't he? That's why it's so rare that we
get Dawn of the Dead or Martin or some of these others
available. Yeah, I think the thing with
Dawn is eventually the rights got sold to someone who upscaled
it to 3D and he spent $6,000,000to do that and was not a solid

(49:11):
return on investment. It's kind of like betting on the
Washington Generals when they play the Harlem Globetrotters.
Like it's that kind of investment.
You just got so mad right there,Nicole, that's a sound analogy.
Like if you were gambling and you had 50 bucks and it was a
game between the Globetrotters and the generals, you're telling

(49:33):
me you're taking the under and the generals?
Always, yes. I you got to explain this one to
me. The generals are fine.
Did you bet against Rocky in theRocky movies too?
Would you be like, I don't know,I think Avan Drago's got him.
I think it's his time. No so never against Rocky.

(49:54):
So I've I think I've said not onthis podcast.
Odd thing, this is a diversion, but Sylvester Stallone looks
exactly like my dad. OK.
And so I remember watching Rockyand and being like, Oh no, dad,
what are you doing? Why are you getting punched in

(50:14):
the face so much? I'm like is this why dad left
and so that he could go get punched and.
Also no. Arm wrestle.
You know. Over the top is so.
Over the top is so good. Sorry, theaters.
I empathize with this because mymom looks exactly like Alex
Kitner's mom and Jaws. Oh God.

(50:36):
Or she did at the time. So I just, every time I see that
scene where she slaps Roy Schneider, I'm like, mom.
Yeah, we just did Jaws trivia and I wanted to name our team
Alex Kitner as a bad mom, and I was told I would not be allowed
to do that. It's a It's a take.

(50:57):
It's a the right take history prophy, right?
Yeah. I mean, it does, but no, I, I'm,
I will not go against the generals.
One thing is right before I moved to DCI, went to the
inaugural year of the WashingtonNationals.
OK. And so I am very hardcore a

(51:19):
supporter of our local teams AKAdoes our football team really
have a name? The commanders.
It does, but people still struggle.
I still see. People struggle was real.
The the old school but no I no the generals are fine.

(51:40):
But they're not. But you wouldn't.
Put money on them, they're not going to win.
I don't. That's like the whole stick.
But I feel that if I put a bet down, it's like giving to
charity. Do you feel like they're due?
Do you just feel like they're due?
Like their day has to come at some point?
But. I'm giving it to them.

(52:01):
I'm not. It's like.
I would set up a bet to be like what let's let's completely re
strategize how we think about this.
Even the same thing with zombies, fast zombies versus
slow zombies. Who am I betting towards?
I'm gonna bet towards slow zombies and here's why sneaky

(52:22):
ass. You do not anticipate they sneak
up on you and you're like, are they people?
And then you're like, but they're dead people and that's
scary. That's gonna be usually like,
that's not natural. That's a cheetah people.
And then you move very quickly out of the way.
I would, but I'm betting on slope with generals.

(52:45):
I'm saying, look, we know what we know.
Stats don't lie. However, I want to give to the
people. So if I bet, I want all my money
dispersed amongst the teams members and their family and
then I can go to sleep at night and I will be like, you know
what, we all did our best today.Well, that money didn't go to

(53:05):
charity though. It just goes to the the house.
It just goes to the bookie. It goes to their no, I'm saying
I don't want it to go to the bookie I wanted.
To go to the but it. Would well, they can lie to me,
but I'm stipulated that I wanted.
To go. I don't think you know how
casinos work and I'm a little worried.
I don't gamble money. I work for a nonprofit.

(53:30):
Well, Speaking of natural and scary, moving on, we have Tom
Savini. Savini does the visual effects
here, and he was supposed to provide them for Night of the
Living Dead, but he went and gotdrafted to Vietnam instead,
where he served as a combat photographer.

(53:51):
And if you read any interview orlisten to any interview with Tom
Savini, like he talks pretty openly about like the
experiences he had there like were an influence on his make up
work and his effect work going forward.
He provided, you know, originally he worked with Romero

(54:15):
providing like wrist slashing effects on Martin and he was a
fire hired to provide all the special gore and the makeup
effects and dawn. He originally didn't like the
very bright, bright red, like the pink color red of the zombie
blood, the blood in this movie. And Romero was like, Nope, we

(54:37):
want to keep this. I know it's not realistic.
Like we're kind of going for that more garish, cartoonish
look. All right.
And you know, one of the things that I realized I watched the
4K, you know, and, and this happened also I I want this is
going back to Rubenstein a little bit in the 3D version.
I saw that version and and there's no point for this movie

(55:01):
to be in 3D. It was it was completely
pointless. Should have just re released it
as is with the 4K upgrade in theaters.
It would have been a much bettersituation, especially when I
compared it. Guess I saw around that same
time I saw Jaws in 3D and I saw Jurassic Park in 3D.
And you see that Spielberg composes his shots with real

(55:23):
depth of field. And, and so it makes him very
interesting visually in 3D whereRomero just didn't make movies
that way. I mean, it was lots of coverage,
lots of, you know, static camerashots, things like that, which
is great for for an editor, you know, he's an editor.
So that works out really well with his stuff, but it it was no

(55:46):
point to be in 3D. One thing that I think they did
do was they changed the color timing in the 4K version because
the blood is dark is darker. It's.
It looks more like. It shouldn't do that.
It looks less like 70s blood. Yeah.
And the and the zombies actuallylook Gray.

(56:07):
They don't look blue, which I think actually kind of works
great. Thinking about this as a cartoon
comic book style movie, The sortof pinky, you know, too bright
blood actually kind of works forit.
You could see this like a shortened version of.

(56:28):
This is a segment of Creepshow. Oh yeah.
Right. I mean, it kind of feels, a lot
of it feels like in the same vein and tone of which to me, I
think Creepshow's Romero's best film.
It's certainly my favorite of any of his films.
And you know, Savini also would not only be behind the camera
doing all these effects, but he's in front of it as well as

(56:52):
one of the bikers. He's the one with like the huge
machete. And he does the stunt fall over
the railing after he shot by Furay.
I believe what he did that stunt, like he actually missed
his landing spot and really hurthimself.
And it's like, I'm fine, we'll do it again.

(57:12):
But if Tom Savini, another thingabout him is he loves being on
screen. Loves, loves, loves being on
screen. And I kind of love that for him.
Same. I find him like a very enjoyable
screen presence. He is.
I was, I was just watching a, a documentary just before we got

(57:33):
on to record about this and he almost died doing one of his
stunts in this. There's a plate glass window and
they, they fashioned the plate glass window himself, but it it
themselves, not him. He didn't do it, but it, it
ended up being way too thick andhe goes through it and it, it

(57:55):
almost it, it, it, it could havedecapitated him.
It was just so big and heavy andthe bike, you know, broke, did
most of the breaking of the glass.
But yeah, he it, it could have killed him.
So it's a good. 70s man, just it's.
The Wild West. Another day at the office.

(58:16):
Spiker gangs and. I will only mention a couple
other people here in passing. Dean Forrest, who he mentioned
very briefly before. She was Ramirez, then
girlfriend, then his future wife.
She would act in a number of Romero's films, but also would
work as a assistant director. She would go on to produce

(58:42):
Savini's Night of the Living Dead remake in 1990.
In the Dark Half in 1993. You can see her on screen here
at the beginning of the film in the studio.
Like it's her and Romero kind ofquibbling with one another,
which I think is very cute. And also I mentioned John
Ampless, who was the star of Martin.

(59:03):
He has the role of Martinez here, but he's also like a
casting director and he would goon to appear in later Romero
films like Night Riders, Creepshow, Day of the Dead and
The Dark Half. Filming takes place at the
Monroeville Mall. They only have access to the
mall between 11:00 PM and 7:00 AM.

(59:27):
It's 730. The automated mall music would
kick on, the announcements wouldkick on, and they would have to
start putting everything back inplace by December.
Romero's like, we should probably take a break from
filming because we don't want tocontend with all the Christmas
decorations. So by January they start back up

(59:48):
January 3rd and he is already cut together like a lot of the
footage that they've already done.
And this is where the third act happens.
Like when they go back to the mall, they're really off script
for most of it. And this is just Romero and
Savini in particular just filming shit on the fly like so

(01:00:10):
if that. Last act of this film feels much
more loose and not nearly as tight as the first two.
There's a reason for that. It's just like, wouldn't it be
cool to do blank? And they're like, sure, let's do
those things. Savini said he would come up
with ideas on the fly and if Romero liked it, he's like,

(01:00:32):
yeah, go ahead, let's film it. Let's get coverage and let's
film it. And here I think, Nicole, maybe
you can jump in and talk a bit about the different scores.
We did talk a little bit about that, but like, why were there
different scores here and how was this music put together?
Yeah. So I think as we already

(01:00:53):
mentioned, with Romero's version, he added in a lot of
he, I don't want to say a lot, but he really cut it up between
some Goblin score as well as canned music, which I really
personally loved. But this was done, I think to

(01:01:15):
really put a point on some of the commentary that Romero
wanted to make. Then you get Argento.
So obviously, Argento came in clutch with a person hand to
say, like, I want to give you monies and help distribute the
film, particularly to an Italianaudience.

(01:01:38):
And one thing that's so important to understand it, I
think, you know, if anyone has any qualms with how like, you
know, deeply went into maybe ourqualms or our love of how this
film approaches commentary around mall culture, to me, this

(01:02:01):
is a really important piece because it's a very American
thing. You know, it wasn't too far
removed from this period of time, which is maybe hard for us
to conceptualize in 2025 that, you know, now we think of like
Taylor Swift selling out arenas,right?

(01:02:24):
But back in the day, her stamp of approval would have been mall
tours. And it wasn't about selling
merch. Debbie Gibson.
Can I now go over to the Limitedand buy that top that she was
wearing? And so there's a real finesse
with the commentary that Romero wants to make that's very much

(01:02:46):
about just changes in American culture.
So you have Argento, who is like, cute.
I dig it. Not going to hit with my Italian
folk to the same degree. So going to go real hard and
heavy with some goblin because that's going to distract them.

(01:03:08):
They're just going to like bop to it while you're talking about
malls and that's not a thing. And so also, you know, outside
of the music, I think the cuts of this film, the music is
obviously a very substantial piece, but there are little bits

(01:03:29):
and pieces that I think just speak to what they wanted to
emphasize. You know, I think that, you
know, I think it's the Romero piece that really focuses in on
some of the relationship dynamics where when you watch
the Romero, not the Romero, the Argento cut very much in the

(01:03:50):
vein of like an action more, which those are amazing and it's
in a really great version of that.
But I think it's also an interesting film that you know,
the the versions don't differ all too greatly, but there's
definite internal bits. And depending on what your

(01:04:12):
flavor is, when you want to watch something, you've got a
lot of different options to be like, what do I want to walk
away with? Do I want to vibe with some
Goblin and have a good like action horror event, or do I
want something that's silly, kind of making a point about
what culture was doing at that time, very stamped in the time

(01:04:32):
period and really figure out like what's going on between all
the people in this film. So I, yeah, like I said, I love
Argento and I love Goblin, but II think that for me, I get the
most steam out of the Romero version with the mix.

(01:04:56):
And remind me like the Argento cut that is marketed in Italy as
like Zombie 2 or zombie correct like its own?
Zombie, yeah. Yeah, which is so confusing
because then you got Fulchi. Zombie 2.
With his film and you know, you've got two real heavy

(01:05:21):
weights in terms of like Italianhorror and they were both kind
of like, let's just call shit zombie like that's what it's
about. What it is?
It's about zombies. We don't care.
This isn't about like, some cutesy name.
There's a zombie in this movie, Zombie 422 because 420 second

(01:05:44):
film being released in this country about zombies and we
love it, appreciate it. One thing that Argento didn't
have to deal with that Romero did is the ratings board, which
was not around in 1968 with Night of the Living Dead.
And it's one of our listeners pointed out by like that time

(01:06:06):
the Hayes Code was on its dying days, which allowed Romero a lot
more creative freedom to do someof the things this night of the
living dead that had not been seen.
So thank you to our listener Alex for pointing that out.
Much, much appreciated. But this time now you have the
MPAA who looks at this cut of film and they're like we are

(01:06:29):
going to give this an X rating, which would have been box office
death for the film. Although you know, people did
attend like X-rated, like it wasa thing.
It was a happening in the 70s togo to an X-rated movie.
Like couples would have date nights and do that.
I mean, if you've seen Taxi Driver, case in point, Travis

(01:06:53):
Bickle, just try to show a lady a nice time out in Civil
Shepherd not being receptive. He's just trying his best.
Yeah, just guys trying. That X-rated didn't necessarily
just mean. Pornographic.
It just meant something that waslike.

(01:07:13):
Too extreme for mainstream audiences.
So that would have been death. So he's like, well, what if we
released the film unrated? It would now can play in many
more theaters. But it does limit the
advertising you can do for a movie.
Like my understanding is you could not say in like newspapers

(01:07:35):
like when it was playing like what times like it's like
contact theaters for showtimes, which you know, it's a pre
Internet world. So once again, the printing
press would step to the rescue. I know I've been bagged on here
for my admiration of the printing press, but you would
open up like a newspaper and look at like what's playing when

(01:07:57):
that's how you when you know things are playing, which we
could not have done if we didn'thave the printing press got I
missed the days too, of like Friday, opening the paper,
finding the the theater. That was one of my favorite.
Things I remember. Going to visit like my
grandparents, I did not live near a theater and so when I
would go and visit my grandparents in the city of

(01:08:21):
Indianapolis and we could go to a theater, a movie theater, I
just remember my grandpa having like the newspaper and the 1st
morning I was there, I'm like all right grandpa, you know what
section to give me both the comics and movies.
Yeah, every time and. Just give me my orange juice
like this is this is our transaction.

(01:08:43):
Thank you. I love it.
But yeah, and I think also it's very similar.
I mean, as much as things have changed, they really have it in
terms of how you market and not rated or unrated film versus
something that's rated R. You always have to just trim.
And how many, how many times have we heard of directors being

(01:09:04):
super sneaky and being like. I told him right.
But I didn't. Hitchcock did it all the time.
Yeah, it's like I told them I did all of these cuz but I
actually did nothing. I went and took a nap and they
were like yeah this is so much better.
Thank you. Yeah, and then, you know, Wes
Craven's work around and Sean Cunningham's work around on Last

(01:09:25):
House on the Left was just to clip the the R symbol and just
splice it onto the beginning of the movie.
And there you go, It's rated. There you go.
It never passed. It never passed any board.
Excellent. So the lack of a rating doesn't
hurt the box office here. You maybe we might have a

(01:09:47):
different story with the next entry in our series.
Over the first weekend to release it pulls in over
1,000,000 bucks or close to 1,000,000 and over 5 million in
the first buck with 5 million inthe first month.
It ends up pulling in about 23 million in the US alone between

(01:10:08):
like ticket sales and theater rentals.
Overseas, it's an even bigger hit, pulling in 24,000,000 about
a year by the time it's been outfor a year October 79, and close
to 50 million by the end of its run.
Like overall, like Don is going to pull in nearly $66 million in

(01:10:33):
ticket sales, which adjusted forinflation is about $350 million
for a pretty tiny still independent picture, which is
really impressive. So I think it's fair to say that
like in terms of commercial success, creative success, like

(01:10:57):
Don, whether I agree or not, like it represents like the
pinnacle of like Romero's powers.
And we'll see what he does with that, you know, in between.
Cause what's interesting about Romero was it seems like once a
decade he would kind of pop in and like, all right, well, time
to do another zombie movie and what do we have to talk about

(01:11:19):
this time? And he would do his other
projects in betweens. I thought like of Creepshow as a
massive hit, and it's not like it's a good cult hit and it's
not a flop or a failure, but to me I thought Creepshow would
have been his like, biggest movie overall.
And yeah. My sense is like Creepshow

(01:11:40):
really did well on video. Yeah.
Oh yeah, I think video and also is a comic book, I would think
is that it came out with like Stephen King's comic as well.
Why don't we get into the art for it?
But I think maybe that's why I think of this being such a big
hit. But let's talk about the movie.

(01:12:00):
Let's start at the very beginning.
It's a very good place to start because I think the right at the
beginning, you have the parts tome that played so different post
COVID than they did, you know, five years ago.
Because this debate between the scientists and the media and all

(01:12:23):
that's going on, you know, it's like you can't be serious.
People are getting up and eatingeach other.
Dead people are eating. You know, that's crazy.
It's like, and and you know, thescientists just pleading, it's
like they get up and they kill the people they kill, get up and
kill. This is happening.
And them just being like, this is ridiculous and giving him the

(01:12:45):
Bunny ears and all kinds of things that just hit so
different for me now than it did, you know, watching this
movie years ago. Yeah.
And I think there's something really powerful about like the
back and forth between the like during the TV, the spot

(01:13:08):
sequences where you have the commentators.
I think especially within pandemic times, it really did, I
think, allow folks who maybe felt removed from knowledge of
like the medical harm that had been dumped to marginalized
communities and the stress of science.

(01:13:29):
And it's particularly medical science because I had been
weaponized. And so when you have someone
that's like what like break it down, like give, give us some
proof, some fact. And I, I, you need to convince
me on a slightly different level.
I think it's something very interesting.

(01:13:51):
I think also, you know, with allzombie films, there's something
that's very interesting for me in terms of the contagion
factor. You know, it's not just about
like, hey, there's this, that number of zombies that are just
roaming around, right? People can get infected.

(01:14:12):
And So what does that mean? How do we protect ourselves,
protect others? And it's a hard thing because as
someone with a disability, you're also like, hey, you know
what, what does this communicateto people who have medical
conditions? And, you know, oftentimes I

(01:14:35):
think I've talked about this on my podcast where one of the
first, one of the first questions that I will get asked
is, are you like, can I get whatyou have?
And it's like, no, like, no, that's not how the my Condition

(01:14:56):
works. And so it's a very, I think
interesting thing about just, you know, if you look at zombie
films like Romero's and even more recent films, there's so
much, I think conversation abouthow we protect ourselves,
protect others, how we prioritize that.

(01:15:19):
And also taking in other perspectives of people who are
like, I, I have questions. I don't know if this is safe.
I don't know what to do because I don't trust the sources of
information getting. Well, I think what you just said
there, trust is the big thing I hone in on because what jumped
out at me is the difference in the portrayal of the media

(01:15:44):
between Night of the Living Deadand Dawn of the Dead.
Because when you go back and watch Night of the Living Dead,
the media was seen as like a trusted resource.
Like they were the ones in like,very calm tones telling persons
where to go. They were trying to update as
necessary and giving new information.
And you have like the scenes, that brief scene that shot in

(01:16:07):
Washington, DC, where you have like the two scientists that are
disagreeing, but they're disagreeing in like civil, calm,
neutral tones. And it's like cordial.
There's a professional respect that's there.
And you go a decade later. And which is funny because to
me, like 10 years later, I wouldalmost think like the media, the

(01:16:31):
trusted media should have been at its height considering like
you have Woodward and Bernstein that have broken the Watergate
scandal that you had like the media showing images of the
horrors of like Vietnam and the horrific treatment of minorities

(01:16:52):
due to like civil rights violations, like the media at
that time broadcasting that. And Romero takes a different
tact where you have like the scientific expert who crew
members are giving him the Bunnyears and people are you like get
him the fuck off of camera. But like the most telling scene
here is the conflict friend has with her producer, where her

(01:17:16):
producer is like she tells him like this information's out of
date. Like these places are closed.
If we tell people to go there, they will die.
And her producer being like, I don't give a shit if people
don't see the centres, they willturn off the television or they

(01:17:37):
will watch someone else. And what's amazing, even with
like, is this supposed to be like a few weeks after night?
So it's supposed to be like a relatively quick turn around.
That's not a 10 year gap. And at the end of night, you get
this reassurance things are under control.
Seems like things are going to return to normal.
And in a few short weeks, the world has gone to shit.

(01:17:59):
It's gone to chaos. Which to Brian, your point about
COVID, Oh, we have it contained.It's a, you know, we're going to
not let people off like the cruise ships.
We got it. Well, don't worry.
Things like I remember getting dismissed from school on a
Wednesday saying we'll see you. We're going to close the school
for two days. We're going to clean the school.

(01:18:21):
And I remember walking out and turning to one of my counselors
and good friend Brian, and I'm like, I'll see you in September,
dude. Like, there's no way we're
coming back. This is horseshit.
But the producer being like, youcan't put accurate information
up. We can't take information away.
We'll lose ratings. That is the concern during this
outbreak. And it's, I hate to say it, as

(01:18:42):
much as I don't love all of Romero's films, even something
like Diary of the Dead, it's scary how preetched he is in
predicting something like this is well before cable news has
become a thing. And it's well before 24 hour
news networks where news is reported more like sports, who

(01:19:04):
won and who lost and everything is both cyber ISM and you're
seeing that here, which is really, really scary.
I think that's the most terrifying thing about this
opening scene and the chaos it really throws you right in.
It's a the opening is amazing, like the the tone, the feel like
this first set piece is amazing without a zombie on screen at

(01:19:29):
all. I.
Think it's also very disorienting because there's so
much chaos, there's so much going on.
They're trying to pick up like what's going on?
Who am I following? What's the story that we're
following here? And I think that that's really
like resonant with COVID, right?We're getting so much

(01:19:51):
information from so many different outlets, some of it
consistent and a lot of it not. And we're trying to figure out
like what's going on now. I think we also have the extra
layer of social media and peoplewho are on YouTube, TikTok, all

(01:20:12):
these other channels that are. Kind of framing themselves as
news sources and I'm not saying that disparaging because I think
there are folks who use those channels to really push out
information and as accurate of ways possible.
There are some great sources, but people are really just about

(01:20:34):
to clicks. And so they're clipping all of
these like, you know, really salacious bits of a
conversation, putting it out there and being like, Can you
believe that someone so said this when there's so much more
to the story? And I think that that's
something too like there's a really, really, I think resonant

(01:21:00):
piece about media literacy that is part of this.
Maybe think about what you're consuming and really thoughtful
ways. And and I think that this whole
opening speaks to that because the the public has no idea about
what's going on behind behind the scenes and the chaos and how

(01:21:23):
they're trying to be like, what do we say?
How do we say it? I love it.
And we find out like this is thedying death of this is the dying
breath of it, where when Steven is trying to convince Fran to go
and she's like, we have a responsibility here.
We can't just leave. One of the other producers is
like we're off the air by midnight.

(01:21:45):
Like our our work here. It's he says.
It was such a matter of fact, almost like humorous tone.
He's like, we're off. Like our responsibility is at an
end or something like that. It's a very, it's an odd line.
Exactly what the line is is escaping me, but it's a very it
sticks out because it's just sort of weird.

(01:22:06):
Yeah. But it's but it's a declarative
moment. It's memorable.
You're going to have generation now of folks who have no concept
of non 24 hour cycle news. And so to be like we're shutting
down at midnight because we needrest, we need naps, we need to

(01:22:28):
recharge and we'll all come together in a different space.
We don't have that now. It's 24/7 all day, every day
across so many different planes.So I again, I just you almost

(01:22:49):
feel I love a movie that puts you that just kind of makes you
sweat a. Little.
Bit and the opening of this justsit so perfectly 'cause you're
like, these are people that are really on burner right now.
Even from the very first shot where Fran is waking up from a

(01:23:09):
nightmare into the real world, which is literally a nightmare,
is it's pretty killer way to start your movie.
Absolutely. How jarring is the cut from
this, like, new scene? That's something that always

(01:23:30):
throws me off, where you go fromthe chaos of The Newsroom to the
chaos on this rooftop. It's all there's like, no,
there's no build to it whatsoever.
You're just there and you're like Romero, like, this is
something that we don't do enough in modern filmmaking.

(01:23:50):
Like, we trust our audience enough to follow along.
Like, if you don't know where you're at right now, you'll
eventually get it. But you go from one chaotic
scene to another with this standoff on top of the hotel
between this like SWAT team and the inhabitants of this boarding
house. It's, and this is the sequence

(01:24:16):
that always really disturbed me too.
And that it's so jarring, sort of throws you into that just
headlong and immediately, you know, you know, someone's
getting shot in the head. And then before long you've got
that moment where the guy's headgets blown off with a shotgun
and then where the the woman gets bitten in the neck and then

(01:24:41):
on the arm. And the that has always been
just so. And, and you, you feel it with
Roger. So when he goes down into that
room by himself, just kind of throws up in the sink and, and
you just think, oh, chance to catch my breath.
And then you all of a sudden it's like, you're not alone in
here. You know, it's like, oh, we're

(01:25:02):
still going. I mean, it's, it's just.
And then to, to find out, you know, with, and I think Romero
really populates this sequence with really interesting people.
You know, like you have the priest comes through and he's
got one leg and he's with the crutch and he's, he's just super

(01:25:24):
chill and calm. And he just says, yeah, we, we
put a whole bunch of people did the last rites for them over
here and they're like, oh God, what?
That's all. And and then to go in there and
then to find them devouring eachother inside that little cage or

(01:25:45):
whatever that is. It's just as a kid seeing this,
that really disturbed me just and, and you know, they, they
hired amputees, for example, forsome of these, these zombie
roles. And I don't know how we all feel
about that, but it's that that sequence is just, is, it's a

(01:26:09):
lot. I mean, there's just, and it's
just all at once. It's just like there's the, the,
the blood on the walls and they're start shooting them and
everything's just kind of all happening at once.
It's, it's, it's, it's a lot to take in right at the beginning
of of a film. Yeah, I in terms of like
bringing on the like or hiring folks that are amputees, you

(01:26:34):
know, it's always that fine balance of want to bring in
folks that have physical differences, physical
disabilities, 100% of that. But when that physical
disability is used to emphasize horror.
Right. And suffering and pain.

(01:26:55):
I think that a lot of people lose what is really being
communicated sometimes with that, which is like, oh, God,
I'm so glad. Like, could you imagine?
And oh, that's so horrific having, you know, your arm
amputated where this person outside of makeup is like, my
life is really fucking fun. I have some hardships just like

(01:27:18):
everyone else, but I'm striving and thriving.
And you are using a horror film to make some really intense
ideas on what my life is really like.
Even if we can try to divorce this like, well, this is a a

(01:27:39):
fictional character. Like zombies don't exist.
But I don't know. It's just, it's one of those
things that, like, nuance is really important.
Love folks being hired. It's kind of like I talked about
this, I think really pointedly and chatting about hereditary

(01:28:02):
because you have a character with a disability, but the
makeup, the clothing, all that was done to emphasize the
disability and creepiness of theappearance.
And that communicates something very, very specific about

(01:28:22):
disability. And I think that using amputees
in a very specific way, underscoring the word using can
be harmful. But at the same time like cash
your check bye nice. Yeah, it's, it's something
that's been and and This is why,you know, shows like yours are
so important, Nicole. I mean, this is something that
has been wrestled with in horrorsince the beginning.

(01:28:47):
I mean freaks, freaks and beforefreaks even, you know, like LON
Chaney playing various characters with, you know, for
example, he plays an armless character in one movie and
things like that. In fact, he's he's not armless.
He's pretending to be armless inthe unknown.

(01:29:07):
So oh, spoiler alert anyway, butit's a it's a that was you might
want to cut that out. But anyway, it but it has it is
something that's been a long discussion with horror films.
Well, what struck me with this scene is not just the chaos of

(01:29:30):
it. I mean you have the woman
running up to her husband and then realizing oh, he's dead and
you get like 2 graphic zombie bites like the first you've ever
really had. And I still think two of the
best. It almost looks like she's made
of like Angel food cake. Like that is how easily he's

(01:29:51):
able to tear into her. And that is like one of the more
horrific visuals from this movie.
But the thing that strikes me islike, there's the the SWAT
member on the roof who is just explicitly racist that we won't
repeat his lines here. That is like shocking in a way.
And his anger comes from the fact that he's like, these

(01:30:15):
people in here are living betterthan I am.
And we have no idea how this person is living.
He might be fine, but just the fact that, like, in his mind,
like, these minorities have something he doesn't is enough
to get him angry, which that doesn't resonate in 2025

(01:30:35):
whatsoever. And oh gosh, yeah.
So. I know.
But the other part of it, like what really struck me is, you
know, we talk about like how Romero, Speaking of consumerism,
to me, this is a lot of an indictment on the phenomenon of
white flight that was going on in the 1970s.

(01:30:57):
And you had white families that had lived and thrived in urban
areas for generations deciding there it's cities are quoted
quote becoming too unsafe because too many of the wrong
people were starting to move into cities.

(01:31:18):
And you see these depictions of cities as like these urban
hellscapes because they're no longer quoted safe for white
people. So as you see, like there's the
suggestion in this movie, just drop bombs on the cities.
You can't go into cities becausethat is where all of the horror
is happening. You have to go to less populated

(01:31:39):
areas. And to me, the shopping mall,
there's no greater like symbol of like 80s and 90s suburbia
than the shopping mall. Like that became the one stop
place for white families from the suburbs to go and get all of
their needs met so they wouldn'thave to travel into urban areas

(01:32:02):
any longer because they felt it was unsafe.
And I think you're seeing a lot of that here in Dawn of the
Dead. Like it's not at the forefront,
but Romero saying we're going into the cities and we're
explicitly targeting black and brown families.
Like I'm sure there are other areas where persons are

(01:32:24):
harboring their dead. I mean, we see it later on with
the 2 zombie children locked behind a door right right here.
It's like we're going to specifically go into these
areas, and we're not only going to target the dead, but we're
also going to target the living.No one is going to be safe when
these forces of oppression come in, you know, and later on, they

(01:32:48):
go to the mall, and the mall is no longer safe.
Like these areas that were once safe for whites, they're no
longer considered safe. They're being overrun by the
wrong kind of people. Yeah, that's, I think that's I,
I don't know how cognizant or intentional Romero was about

(01:33:11):
that. But I mean, obviously I think
showing, showing the project is,you know, I mean that's all
obviously very intentional to bring in bring in some
commentary about the state of ofrace relations in America at the
time. But yeah, the but that expanded
idea of the white flight is not something I've heard him talk

(01:33:37):
about. But that's really fascinating.
Yeah, it brings another dimension to it.
Well, I think you also have thatpiece where, you know, it's, you
know, basically like zombie hunting in a clay pigeon style,
right? That scene is, you know, that's

(01:33:57):
communicating something because you have these people that are
just like, we don't like, these aren't humans.
And again, you have to kind of like, take so much of what's
happening at that time in the context with these movies
because Romero really wanted to operate in that time, which I
think is a really powerful placeto be.

(01:34:19):
Like, sometimes a lot of people will say that it makes these
films dated, but Romero did it in such a way that they become
really timeless and that it's like, oh, well, we don't care
about, you know, oh, well, they look different than us.
They're moving different than us.
So we're just going to shoot. And I don't know, like, it's

(01:34:43):
just, it's really, really interesting to me.
And like all of these kind of convergence of how we view, you
know, our fellow human and what we still struggle with.
Yeah, like dated from the perspective that, you know,
obviously fashion is different, music is different,

(01:35:03):
colloquialisms are different. But I would say these two
movies, Land of the Dead, and asmuch as I don't, it's not a good
movie, Diary of the Dead, they predict so much of what's going
to happen in the intervening years.
And all of which, like none of the issues that he raises, feels

(01:35:24):
like they've been resolved in 2025, that we're still living
through a lot of the issues thathe raises in these movies.
Yeah. And I think, you know, that that
sequence that you were just talking about, Nicole, that,
that section that where the, where they're out shooting and
they're just kind of having a tailgate party while they're

(01:35:46):
doing it. It's sort of an expansion on the
same sequence from Night of Living Dead, but where the, you
know, the whole posse sequence at the end where they think
they're Cowboys. You know, they're just having a
good time. We're coming out here and we get
to shoot things just because, hey, we got it, we've got the
guns, Let's just go out there and target practice.

(01:36:08):
That's all they're taking it as.Otherwise, it's just hanging out
with the good old boys. And he really emphasizes the
redneck quality of in this movieas opposed as compared to the
first movie, which has it a little bit.
Yeah, it's it's it's very clear here.
I mean, this seems like mega America, you know, coming out to

(01:36:34):
shoot the libs. I don't know if you want to read
it that way or not. There's there's a certain Civil
War quality about it, even. Well, and you get our core 4
that are together like Roger andPeter meet and Roger kind of
saves his own skin by saying I didn't see nothing happen when

(01:36:56):
Peter had basically killed one of like Roger's like SWAT team
members. And I think they see themselves
as very similar souls in a run. Flip sides of the same coin.
And Roger and Steven had alreadybeen friends and as soon as
Peter shows up, you can see likeSteven is kind of the Harry of

(01:37:20):
this movie. Now, I don't think he's nearly
as explicit explicitly. I don't say evil, but like he's
not the villain in a way that Harry's of ends up being a
villain in Night of the living dead.
But Steven can definitely feel his role diminishing as soon as
like Peter shows up with Roger. I think Steven so much wants to

(01:37:44):
be those guys. He's like, he's like, I, I this,
I can be these guys. And then, you know, he gets in
any situation where he has to, you know, fight a zombie,
whether it's the thing with the hammer and, you know, trying to
get the one away away from Fran or, you know, trying to load the

(01:38:05):
gun, dropping all the all the bullets on the ground while the
zombie is right on him. All of those scenes.
It's like he's trying so hard tobe them, but he is just failing
at every turn to be, you know, in league with them at all.
I actually have a little bit of,I know when we were talking on

(01:38:26):
on Monday off air with Steven, he was kind of like, yeah,
Steven is Stevens not a good guyat all.
And I'm kind of like, I kind of empathize with him a little bit.
I mean, just being the awkward guy that doesn't quite fit in
and trying really hard, trying to emulate these guys and just
failing at every turn. I don't think he's a really, I

(01:38:51):
don't think he's a terrible guy.He's misguided in, you know, his
attitude, especially towards Fran and her pregnancy and just
making decisions for her and things like that.
That's all. That's all awful.
But I mean, it's not his business to to to speak for her
like that, of course. But but for the most part, I

(01:39:14):
think I kind of find myself empathizing with him in general
as being just this dorky guy who's trying to be with the cool
kids. Yeah, I definitely want to dive
more into that because I think I'm more on your side when it
comes to like the portrayal of Steven here.

(01:39:35):
But I want to talk about Fran a little bit because I wonder how
I think, like Galen Ross is incredible in this movie, and I
wonder how much of it is Romero adapting and being able to write
a stronger female character versus Galen Ross bringing that

(01:39:56):
gravitas to the role 'cause I kind of feel like it's more of
the latter. I think that Romero is still
because unfortunately for every great moment that Ross has his
friend, whether that's like standing up to her producer,
whether it's like telling the three men I am not here to be
your den mother. I have an equal say.

(01:40:19):
I have a vote. I feel like that happens.
And then she's sidelined for a lot of this movie and it becomes
like a boy's adventure going through the mall.
And she is like, I see one more shot of Galen Ross, like sitting
on a in the stairwell looking wistful.

(01:40:39):
I'm like, all right, We make a drinking game of it.
I'll have no liver left by the end of the movie.
It. Communicates to the challenge
right where obviously she came out of the gate being like, I
don't want to be like, you're screaming woman in peril and
Romero being like, well, what doI do with that?
Like, how do I, how does that translate?

(01:41:00):
That's hard for me. Like, I want you in peril.
And so I'm just going to now make you sidelined and blissful
and like, what do I do? Oh, everything is happening so
and so I I do struggle with it. I think that the character
friend is amazing. I love her so much.

(01:41:22):
I think there is just this really poignant shrink to the
character that even when she's sidelined still kind of comes
through and she's such a strong actor in that regard.
But yeah, I think this does speak to Romero's difficulty
with being I, you know, like I as a director, love this woman

(01:41:46):
giving me this feedback and saying that this is what I'm
going to do. Wink, wink, nudge, nudge.
Yeah, he probably was like, no, I know better.
And I'm a director and I, I knowthings that you don't know.
But he was also being very respectful and being like, hey,

(01:42:07):
I she kind of has a point. But then being like, oh shit, he
does have a point. But ChatGPT doesn't exist now.
I can't like go there and be like, how bright a strong woman.
He is a very collaborative director.
Like he does like one thing thattends to come out when you like

(01:42:30):
read or like watch anything withhim is he's very much interested
in collaboration, whether it's with performers or whether it's
with the crew. And I think that's part of the
reason why people wanted to workwith him over and over.
But there's definitely that struggle there to understand
what can we do with Fran outsideof.

(01:42:51):
And you see, she has like some moments, like, I need to learn
how to fly the helicopter because one of us needs to in
case something happens to you that she's like, you're not
going to leave me without a gun.So I'd like those moments where
she stands up for herself. Yeah, certainly.
I don't think I really have anything to add to what you've
guys have already said. It's really on point I think.

(01:43:14):
Right. And then you have again one of
the conversations that resonatesin a much different way in
modern times, when Peter, Rodgerand Steven discuss what to do
about Fran's pregnancy without allowing her to utter a single

(01:43:37):
word. Right.
Yeah. Which is a very specific choice.
Yeah. And I think maybe it was an
intentional choice to depict that in the film because I
think, you know, this is, you know, Roe V Wade existed was in
effect at that time. I think having her not in the

(01:43:59):
conversation was a commentary onguys.
You do realize this sucks, right?
That's that's what I feel in that because it does feel very
awkward for the guys just to be talking like that and her not
part of the conversation at all.And even to cut to her and have
her just kind of looking on like, you know, come on, you

(01:44:22):
know, and she still doesn't say anything, but she does kind of
look at them at least go. It's like, do I have a vote
here? Right.
And then for her to bring it up later, I get a vote, I think
kind of retroactively refers to this scene as well.
So, but then I'm a, I'm, yeah, I'm not probably the person to

(01:44:42):
speak to this with great authority.
Yeah, I'll take over that, I guess.
I you know I'm kidding. I mean, it's rough because I
mean, what, Like I lose concept of time?
It was last year. Yeah, two films that were
basically heel to heel together,that dealt with.

(01:45:03):
This. Dealt with bodily autonomy of
women dealing with pregnancies with the first so men and
Immaculate and you know the conversation just doesn't
change. It's always about men saying,
well, we kind of know best rate,we kind of know what what's

(01:45:25):
going on. And so this, you know,
unfortunately now you have womenthat are just, you know, they
would be very much in relationship to try and being
like, yeah, bunch of people talking over me, no one really
caring about what I have to say.And unfortunately, we've taken
so many steps backwards and thatwe are right back to that place.

(01:45:51):
And so I think it's a really hard watch in those regards.
I think there's a lot of movies that deal with these topics that
now I'll just feel like that could be made today.
And you would have certain folkscelebrating it and being like,
look at this man taking control of his family and really

(01:46:14):
fighting for what Jesus wants. And it's like, OK, like what
take, Wrong take. But you know, everyone's got
them. So I just, I feel like it's it's
really rough. And again, I think it also
speaks to a man that or a personthat cannot have it.

(01:46:37):
It is rough. Like I am someone who cannot
have children. And so being able to like,
communicate about like, should Ihave a say in this conversation
if I'm not someone that's ever going to be polite in that
situation, should I be someone that speaks to that?
However, you know, you do have to plug in a lot of different

(01:47:02):
aspects and be like, hey, I'm still someone who identifies as
woman. And so being able to see how
bodily autonomy is not just stripped in terms of
reproductive rights, but in so many aspects, like we focus on
reproductive rights, but you askany woman who has been in

(01:47:23):
healthcare systems and they're like, hey, like 65% of my
symptoms are completely ignored or written off this way.
And it's the same kind of thing.So I just, it's rough, right?
Men writing for women Writing for men who want to have a say

(01:47:45):
about women. I remember in like the wake of
like the overturn of like Roe V Wade articles coming out of like
women saying even if like we'll just, you know, get your tubes
tied and women saying if I go in, it's a healthy 20 something
year old woman. I've asked for that procedure
and doctors have said no becauseI might quote UN quote change my

(01:48:08):
mind one day. Like again, like removing that
autonomy from persons to have, you know, and what's funny is
these the same persons that willtake that right away say I
should have the right to do whatever I want with my body,
but they don't extend that pass their own no saying that you

(01:48:29):
don't have the right to do whatever you want with your own
body. I get to make that choice for
you, which is again a very scarything that is like touched on
here. Well, I think at the end of the
day, it also boils down to who are the motherfuckers that are
going to be dealing with the repercussions of these
decisions? Are they raising that baby?

(01:48:51):
No. Are they breastfeeding this
baby? Are they taking care of this
baby? Fuck no.
It's freezing. Like she's giving birth.
And so no, like they can't like your place to the conversation
is to the left and out the door.Let her make her choices.

(01:49:14):
But you know, we live in now that time where it's not about
that. And I I think this movie does
there there are some simple and really poignant moments where I
think it does reflect that. But then you know.
It's, it's, you see, like the relationship with Steven and

(01:49:37):
Fran is really fascinating because there are, there's a
real friction that exists between the two of them.
And you get this feeling that before, before this outbreak,
things are maybe on the rocks a bit.
The things weren't so stable. And a lot of like Stevens, you

(01:49:58):
know, Steven decides for Fran, you need to come with me.
Like we need to leave. And it is framed as a noble
gesture at first, but the more you see them interact, you see
how he feels like she's undercutting him at certain
points when she just wants to have her say in the matter and

(01:50:19):
she what we see Like she apologizes to him for things
that she should not have to apologize for.
And later on when he proposes toher in like 1 of the more in a
scene that must have inspired the Ralph Wiggum I Choo Choo
choose you moment in The Simpsons when you can see poor

(01:50:42):
Stevens heartbreak on screen when he gives her an engagement
ring and she's like, no, just absolutely not gently say, well
it wouldn't feel real. That's the it's not you, it's
me. What a bunch of horseshit and he
sees right through it. Can't blame her.

(01:51:03):
I don't think I'd want to be tied to Steven.
Steven's a tough case. I mean, he's like, you know,
again, that's why I'm sort of like, I kind of, I kind of feel
for the guy. I do feel for.
Him, you know, he's very flawed.I mean, I will, yes, give you
that every day of the week. But overall, he's trying to be a
good guy. He just doesn't really know how

(01:51:26):
to do it, I think. He feels less than.
I mean, there's a lot of self esteem issues there.
You can see that for sure. So we the the calling back of
not calling back because obviously this came after this
movie, but you know, summoning Ralph and.
Love Ralph. God, that is.

(01:51:47):
In danger so. So, so perfect.
Because again, it speaks to thismentality of I don't care how
someone else may be feeling. It's really about my feeling.
And I want to get this validation of love in this

(01:52:08):
moment. And yeah, again, just someone
being like, I'm going to do thisand you're going to just be
putty in my hand. And she's like.
No, the flip side of that after this moment, there are moments
when you see her celebrating hervictories, like when they're

(01:52:29):
shooting together, they seem to be getting along, like he's
genuinely happy for her when shelands the helicopter, like he's
celebrating her in her like victory.
In that moment, you almost see things honestly, like once the
weight of how this, how serious is this relationship?

(01:52:52):
Like once that's removed, you can kind of see like almost like
a weight has come off and they can just be each other.
And then the other side of that is that scene when they're he
turns on the TV, maybe someone'sbroadcasting, someone hasn't
brought and it's like like they've been married for 30

(01:53:13):
years. It's probably my favorite scene
in the It's so. Good.
Where they're just like passive aggressively.
Steven and Fran are the reason Idon't do couples counseling.
If you're getting to the point where you're going to like,
angrily switch off the TVI missed the days when like,
that's how you know. When you could.
Don't even have a remote like God damn like you guys are done

(01:53:36):
so as a couple or. When you could slam down a phone
receiver, yes. I mean, come on.
Those were the days. Like you?
You really nailed it with just the concept of people contain
multitudes. Like, yeah, he can be an asshole
in certain situations, but we also understand that he may be a

(01:54:00):
decent guy and just wants to do like he's navigating a rough
situation just like everyone else.
And that impacts the way that wemake certain choices, how we act
in certain scenarios. So I think as much as he annoys
me, I don't like, I would never be like he's so terrible.

(01:54:24):
Yeah. He's just, he's doing the best
with what he's got and he's misguided sometimes, but.
He's not Harry. No.
I think that he does have a lot of like appreciation for Fran
and does value her a lot. But the way that he tries to

(01:54:45):
convey that is a fucking like stormtrooper shooting a gun.
It's a mess every damn time. I mean, let's be honest, the
best couple in this movie is Peter and Roger.
It's true, except, you know, Roger, I think the truck

(01:55:06):
sequence is really fascinating because Roger just, you know,
he's like, let's go kick some ass.
You're going to. Yeah, you know, and and he's
getting reckless. He's not taking this seriously.
And I love that. It's like, oh, I forgot my damn
bag. We got to go back to the truck.
It's like, it's like, and Peter's just like, listen, you

(01:55:27):
need to get your head together or you're going to get us both
killed. Exactly.
You know, it's like, are you, are you cool?
You know, you need to calm down.And and I, I love that part.
Yeah. I think that's to me, that's one
of the very best moments in the movie is just because, you know,

(01:55:48):
he's sort of taking on the mentality of those guys out in
the field, you know, shooting and having a party.
It's like, and Peter knows full well this is not a party.
This is our survival. And I need your head on that
level with me. Roger is terrified in that
moment. Like it all goes downhill when

(01:56:10):
he's trying to Hotwire the truckand that zombie sneaks up on him
and he almost gets bit. And from that moment on, that
whole like, bravado, like we gotto kick ass, like the bastards,
like you can see that facade drop and he's now terrified.
And everything he's doing is like almost like him saying I'm

(01:56:34):
not scared, you are. But he's trying to convince
himself everything is OK rather than acknowledge this is what's
going on and it is what gets himkilled.
Yeah, and his exactly. His sort of anger and just
inability to manage his emotionsis what gets him bitten because

(01:56:55):
he's distracted. And it's and it's like to me
that's one of the saddest moments is when he gets bit
because, you know, I mean, he's done, you know, even after
having only seen the Night of the Living Dead and Dawn of the
Dead, if you're back in 1979, you know, he's he's done for.

(01:57:17):
And it's just like it's heartbreaking.
And that's sort of a scene that sort of idea is seems to be in
everything since then. I mean, that's sort of like a
key element of just about every zombie movie after that is when
some important character that you really like and care about
gets a bitten and you know they're going to turn.

(01:57:40):
It's rough. Well, and I think it's always
powerful when we have those scenes where we see like the
slow demise, where it's like a slow shift and we just know that
this person is in for a world ofnot just, you know, suffering,
but how the people around them are dealing with it and the

(01:58:00):
choices that brings on them. You know, I often think of Dawn
of the Dead and when you have there's a zombie baby and then
it's kind of like, well, what dowe do with it?
Do we smash it up or do we let it like, hey, maybe you'll bake
in the oven a little bit and it's like, no, it's a zombie
baby and it's gonna eat brains for his entire life and it's a

(01:58:23):
baby and it's got a long life and it's non life and it's gonna
just eat brains for a long time and what do you do?
So I really do. There's there is something
really powerful, but you know, it's never the character that
you're just like, just fucking go right, You're bad.

(01:58:44):
It's always that character that we're like kind of rooting for
you. You you've done some things,
you've made some right moves andthen we see them.
You said you get that bite and you know what is coming for them
and the people around them. And there's a real camaraderie
between Peter and Roger. Like you see the scenes before

(01:59:05):
that, which to me it's where my least favorite part of the movie
because it just goes on for too long.
Like we're running upstairs and downstairs and upstairs and I'm
like, just do your shit. But like there's a real like
we're doing cowboy shit aspect to it.
And how much like despite how dire the circumstances are, like

(01:59:26):
how much genuine fun the two of them seem to be having with one
another. And you know, we forget that
they just met a few days ago at the scene of this horrific.
They've basically trauma bonded over what they had to do in
order to survive. And you miss that like you miss

(01:59:50):
that when Roger telling Peter, don't, don't kill me until I
actually come back because I'm going to try really, really hard
not to come. Back it's.
Such a heartbreaking moment in the movie.
And, and to have it be Peter whokills him, I mean, it's is as

(02:00:11):
appropriate as any moment in themovie.
And it's moving and powerful andsad.
And for it to be such a gory scene and everything, and to
help still have it be as moving as it is, it's really pretty
great. What do we think of the
inclusion of the biker gang here?

(02:00:32):
Because to me, I just don't think they're necessary.
I don't really, I think you could have gotten to the same
place without them. And it feels like we have, we
need 30 more minutes of movie, What can we do?
And they get a real biker gang from Pittsburgh to come and take

(02:00:55):
part in this. But it just, to me, with
everything else we've seen, it just feels so silly.
I agree. And I think that a lot of it has
to do too with like when you have situations like this in any
horror film, it's about to really speed to the impact of
the community and the spread. But we've already gotten that
this film is really perfect in communicating like, all right,

(02:01:19):
we've moved beyond the farmhouseand now we're here and this is
how it's affecting a much broader place.
And it's really, really good in how it does that.
And so having like this biker gang, you know, whenever I see
inclusions like that, it's always like, I may like these
characters on their own, but it's kind of like, what are you

(02:01:43):
communicating about? Like how this is like part of
the world and what they want to do.
Like there's always going to be those kind of like ride and
rally folks who are like, she's happening in our community and
we want to do something. Is this the best way to like
zero in on that particular piece?

(02:02:04):
My thought is a couple of things.
I think it actually goes back a little bit to I am Legend
because right toward yeah, I know not that not the Will Smith
move me. I'm, I'm actually talking about
the book and I'm talking about the last Man on Earth, the
Vincent Price version of that, where you have, for so much of

(02:02:29):
the movie, you have the main character versus the vampires or
zombies or whatever in that story.
And then right at the end, rightin the last section, there's
another survivalist, a group that has survived and they are
different from the one that we've been spending the movie

(02:02:49):
with. And I think because of that,
what you have is you have these Rd.
Warriors out there and they havebeen having a ball hanging out,
shooting shit up. And you know, they see this
thing and they're like, man, these people are brilliant.

(02:03:11):
They took this place over. That's that's great.
I want that. Let's do that.
Right. And so I like the biker gang
element. I think for some and, and my
son, when we saw this, he was like, it's just too long, it's
too much, you don't need it. That was his feeling.
And I was like, that's fine. And then I, I know, I, I

(02:03:32):
remember Jessica Scott saying something along the lines of she
took someone she was seeing to see this movie or something like
that and said or they were watching it or something and
said the biker gang was too much.
And then they broke up. So forgive me if I'm speaking
out of term Jessica, but it was that was like a something that I

(02:03:55):
saw on social media that she posted that I thought was funny.
I dig the biker gang. It does go on too long.
I don't think you need the pie fight.
I don't think you need the seltzer bottles.
Why is one of them getting theirblood pressure checked?
Because he's fucking around, because he's like, I'm going to
do things like I'm going to livelike normal.

(02:04:17):
These are, these are, these are.This is a group of people who
think things have haven't changed in my mind.
They're like, everything's the same.
We're just, we just own the world now.
And it's fantastic. That's what I get from the biker
gang. And I and I love, I don't know,
I, I love the sort of exuberanceand, you know, kinetic nature of

(02:04:41):
it. You know, you all of a sudden
you have bikes, you know, ridingthrough the mall and, and I have
a lot of fun with the sequence. I, I like what you said there
about them just being like a gang of Rd. warriors having a
blast. Because I think like what you
see is a stark contrast between the biker gang and Peter, Roger,

(02:05:04):
Fran and Steven, and that the four of them have all of these.
Like they have enough to live onfor a very long time.
They have enough material goods and enough creature comforts
where they should be able to ride this out in comfort.
And instead it makes them more miserable.

(02:05:26):
Like having all of these things makes them more miserable where
the bikers don't even want to take over the ball.
Like they literally just want togo in smash and grab and get
what they need. And they have no intention of
being like tied down to one place.
So they're almost like we only want to take what we we know

(02:05:47):
we'll take what we need by force.
But and you know, I can understand Peter's trepidation
and like we don't know what their intentions are.
I don't want to let them in. Shut up.
But really they just like, we'lljust grab some supplies and go
where by contrast, like this is what gets Steven killed.
Like Steven is like, this is ours.

(02:06:07):
And and not even like there's a line in the movie where it's.
Crazy, because they had already decided to leave.
Yeah, they were packing up the helicopter and it's like, so
why? You know, it's like this is it's
it's it's like, you know, Kevin McAllister is my house.
I have to defend it where it's not anymore.
They're going to leave. So it's a very.
It's not even their house. And Steven, like they've been

(02:06:30):
drawn in, like Steven in particular have been drawn in by
all of these things that he has.And now it's like, well, now
that I've accumulated, we see, let's face it, we see this with
like billionaires. I have all of this wealth.
I have. You cannot take any of it from
me. I need to have all of it.
If I have to give a little bit of it up, I'd rather give all of

(02:06:50):
it up or fight to the death in order to protect all of it.
And it's what gets Steven killed.
There's no reason for him to kind of go running gung ho
through them all. And it's what winds up getting
him shot and what the reason why, like attention is drawn to
him and it's how he ends up a zombie.

(02:07:11):
It's what fucks him up in the end is that I can't let go of
these material goods. It's not Fran, he doesn't die
because of her. Like, I'm glad there is no love
triangle or petty squabbles, or I'm glad that Fran's not put in
like danger of assault, which would have been like a really

(02:07:33):
easy cheat to do. It's Steven being like, no, this
is mine, you can't have it. And he dies for that.
And Steven has probably the bestzombie walk of any zombie.
Yeah, it's great. It's great.
The idea of consumerism. That gun on his finger.

(02:07:53):
Sorry, Yeah. The idea of consumerism here, I
know it's like represented through the zombies and like
they're kind of shuffling through them all, just going in
and kind of being around all these creature comforts.
But to me, the scene that represents it the most is Ken
Foray up on the roof playing tennis and with himself.

(02:08:17):
And when he's done, he just leaves everything because, like,
I'm never going to run out of it.
So I don't even need to take care of these things anymore.
And then you have that great shot as the ball falls down and
you see just how many zombies have gathered because, like,
this is the only life they used to know.

(02:08:40):
I think 1 moment that also sticks out to me in this film is
where you know, like having zombies just be on autopilot in
terms of like, oh, shopping center, I want to buy some good
some home wares. Also a nice shirt.
I love the when they are taunting the zombies at the door

(02:09:02):
and being like, hey, you can getus and then like it's all cute
for a moment and then zombies are like, no, we really want
that fucking discount. We have to go to JCPenney.
I heard the open to missus fields cookie in here.
I want a missus fields. Cookie piercing pangodia like my

(02:09:26):
God like that was epic. To go to a place you could get
your school supplies and also get pierced, get your ears
pierced like that was revolutionary never been done.
Yeah. Very Lady Gaga like you can walk
into a room and only one person will believe in you and it is

(02:09:47):
someone who said let's you want a pretzel and to put holes in
their body. Also jeans, and here we are.
We used to be a country. We used to be a country and I
but I do love that moment because I think it also just
speaks to like, why are they so incessant on getting in here?

(02:10:11):
Like we're just people, but there's other people out there.
Can't they snack on them and they're like, no, you are where
the goods are? It's not even about them, like
they're incidental. Yeah, like we will chew you by
the fountain and then we want a pretzel and maybe a missus field
cookie, and then I would like tobuy a couch.

(02:10:35):
And one of the things that's funny about the timing of this
film is malls were relatively rare at the time.
There weren't a ton of them. But then by 1982, you know, fast
times are Richmont High. I mean, the whole fucking movie
takes place in a mall, right? Not all of it, obviously, but I
mean it's just that idea of living in the mall.

(02:10:58):
It was just a couple years away.And so I it's almost like this
movie, like you said, prescient.It's like, well, when it comes
to the mall culture, I mean it and it's sort of going away now,
but it. Has gone away, yeah.
Yeah, but all through the 80s and 90s, it was like, it's all

(02:11:22):
we ever, you know, when I was a teenager.
Yeah. Can't think of something to do.
Let's just go to the mall. Yeah, and now, I mean, I walk
through there and it's like, wow, there's nothing here.
It's stores are closed, yeah. And.
You. Have 3/4 empty.
You know, but. It's such an interesting thing
because for a couple of years I lived in Arlington and I lived

(02:11:50):
right by the mall. I'm not the National Mall I live
by. The mall.
The Pentagon City Mall, which was where every bucking school
trip brought their children to frolic.
And the first year I lived there, you know, there were a

(02:12:10):
good number of shops because PC does not have a lot of shopping.
So if you have like one, it was a thing and it's right off the
metro. So fine.
Now it is dead nothing. I think there's like a souvenir
shop and a couple of fast food joints and the food court for

(02:12:34):
people who work around there, but that's pretty much it.
But it was literally like you could not even at times like
really walk through the mall because it would be so packed
with like kids. And this was still in like the
late 20 teens. So it's it's just really
fascinating. We have all of these spaces in

(02:12:58):
the country now that are essentially like suburban
graveyards that what are we going to do with them?
Because they're not designed in such a way where it's say easy
to turn them into like low cost,easy affordable homes.
They're just, and you don't havebusinesses that are like of the

(02:13:22):
size and scale where they can kind of move in.
So it's kind of crazy that. They become a spirit.
Halloween once a year now, yeah.That's really it.
I mean, they become kind of likethese monuments to, you know,
like we said, like body piercings and discount jeans and

(02:13:43):
Mrs. Fields cookies, which they were, to be fair, are great in
overpriced CDs. Like also you're going to spend
$6 more. Your your Sam Goodies, your FYE,
your I mean in goddamn Spencers.I, I mean, I met my like the,
when I graduated high school, like a girl I dated throughout

(02:14:07):
the summer. I met her 'cause I worked at
like a record store in the mall and I yelled to come and touch
my plastic fish, 'cause I had a plastic fish that I just
carried. And she did and we dated.
So, you know, 'cause that's how you landed women in the 90s was
with plastic. Well, and it's so it's so weird.

(02:14:28):
I mean, you have these stores that were even outside of malls
that were just built to be that to house that business, you
know, like Pizza Hut, for example, you know, and where it
has this crazy, you know, shapedroof and everything.
And now, you know, a bunch of those places are are closed and

(02:14:51):
you know, they have to paint theroof or whatever, but it still
looks like a Pizza Hut even if something else is in it.
And, you know. That was Sunglasses Hut.
Right, exactly. You know, we have this out in,
out my way. There's a a Barnes and Noble
that was built to be a Barnes and Noble and now they they

(02:15:11):
cleared out of that building andthey're in another place and
there's a Toys-R-Us over here that's been empty for a decade
and it's just like, it's just you're right.
I mean, just these massive buildings that are just sitting,
taking up, you know what used to.
Be in any. Forest land, you know, and you
can't do anything else with them.

(02:15:31):
Yeah. What's?
What a better analogy for zombies?
Exactly you used to. House something.
Now you have nothing. And so it's, I don't know, it's
really like to watch it now, having gone through both like
the height of mall hysteria and that mall culture and now being

(02:15:52):
on the downturn of that. It's really fascinating because
you're like, where would a zombie go now?
The Internet. Google.
So that would be a good place toend, except I want to talk about
the ending really briefly here because Romero over the
Christmas break they took, did change the ending where the

(02:16:15):
original end of this film was. Peter was going to, as you see
in the films, decide not to go with Fran when she left.
And he was going to kill himself.
He was going to put a bullet through his brain.
And Fran was going to also do the same.
When she saw how overrun the roof was.

(02:16:37):
She was going to step out of theplane or out of the helicopter
and the top of her head was going to come off.
And I believe like there's the scene earlier in the film where
the zombie walks into the blade and it doesn't look right like
his head looks like a Frankenstein head.
It does. And I think that was like
supposed to be Franz prosthetic is others have said it's like

(02:17:00):
the exploding zombie prosthetic.The one that's like shotgunned
is, but I think it's supposed tobe this one, which kind of makes
the most sense. And Romero, I think it was his
his girlfriend slash wife who said, come on, dude, you can't,
you can't end the that's too bleak, George.
That's too bleak, even for the guy that had Dwayne Jones shot

(02:17:24):
right in the forehead. For a movie that's this fun for
most of it, you know, especiallyit just doesn't make sense.
And I'm I've always told people,you know, if you want to make
your movie, your horror movie timeless, go with the bleak
ending. You know, I was like really
hardcore original ending to to the Exorcist, you know, all

(02:17:45):
those sorts of things go with the bleak ending.
It'll stay timeless. But the exception I think, and
it's a big exception, is this one it.
Just I mean, you work, you called the Mist the feel good
movie of the year, so. That's right, I did.
That's just. Yeah, I actually know the kid in
the in the that's ends in the mist.

(02:18:05):
Oh, Jesus. And his mom told me that he was
going to be doing this movie andshe says I can't tell you
anything about it, but I just don't like the ending.
And and so when I saw the ending, I was like, Oh my God,
it's like Nathan just got shot by his dad.
That's how I amazing that was that was wild.

(02:18:28):
So. So I think he makes the right
choice and calling it audible onthe ending and it's not
necessarily a happy 1 like you. Still, you don't know how many
more days like they're going to survive, but at least there's
hope. You know, not much fuel.
Let's go. Yeah, so I I don't like the

(02:18:50):
ending of I like, I would watch Zack Snyder's Dawn of the Dead
before I rewatch this one. I just think the pacing of it is
good. I really like that movie.
But I feel like the ending over the credits is such a cheat.
I hate that kind of ending whereI've just spent two hours
rooting for these characters andyou're telling me that no matter

(02:19:13):
what they do, they're fucked. I don't like that.
And we see in Day of the Dead, it's a much more explicitly
happy ending. Like, they end up on the beach.
And you're like, OK, you kind ofwant to say maybe, like, Fran
and Peter are just off screen, you know, covering themselves in

(02:19:34):
coconut oil. With their baby that they're
taking care of, you know her baby.
Yeah. Any final thoughts?
I want to go back to this idea of is this the greatest zombie
movie 'cause you're going to sayit this way.
I do think that this is, yes, the greatest zombie movie, but I

(02:19:55):
no longer think it's the best. I think it was the best that
somewhere in the early 2000s when you get Shaun of the Dead,
when you get 28 Days Later and sort of this increase in zombie
movies, I think you get some really good stuff trained to
Busan. I think I brought up on the

(02:20:16):
Night of the Living Dead episode, things like that.
So but I think. For for a huge span of time,
this really was the greatest zombie movie and the best zombie
movie with Night, you know, justright there too, you know,
However, when I say greatest, I mean in that it's the most

(02:20:38):
consequential. It's the one that has had the
greatest influence, I think evenmore than Night because it is in
color, for example, and and you know, the gore of it.
And I think I don't think you get things like, well, I mean, I
know that you don't get Day of the Dead.
Obviously you don't get even, you know, Return of the Living

(02:21:01):
Dead and certainly not Shaun of the Dead and those other movies.
I think this is really the moviethat really makes this a viable
Jean, because after this, I mean, the Italians, like you
were saying it just ate this up,no pun intended, but they're.

(02:21:22):
Cranking them out. Yeah, and they're cranking them
out like crazy. I mean, Lucio Folchi and his
zombie stuff is it's wild. But yeah, the, the Italians love
zombies in the in the in the 80shere.
And so that's sort of my take. I love this movie.
I'm a huge fan of it and I, it'sone, I, I don't watch it all the

(02:21:43):
time, but I watch it often enough.
Every few years I'll I'll throw this one on because I do enjoy
it a lot. I I really like this one and I
agree a lot with what Brian said.
I think this is a tastemaker of the genre because it really

(02:22:04):
nailed, I think both the humor that we see in a lot of zombie
films as well as the commentary that's being made and a lot of
zombie films that somehow struckthis weird balance and what it
wanted to do. And so it's it's kind of set a
pace for both like a movie like Shaun of the Dead, but also

(02:22:29):
trying to boost on and films that really want to have a
serious kind of like really hit you in the gut type impact.
And so I, yeah, I, I, I love theway that you phrased it in terms
of best versus greatest. We're all going to have our
preferences based on what we want to walk away with.

(02:22:50):
But I really like this one. I think it's a pacemaker.
And this is definitely the zombie film that if you are
having a movie night and you want to just throw something on
that people are going to have a good time with, I think you're
going to be hard pressed to finda film that really satiates a

(02:23:13):
lot of different folks. It gives you the gore, but it
gives you the humor and some really cool stuff to think about
afterwards. I struggle with this because I
have a lot of respect for this movie and I think it does so
much so well, Especially that that first 30 minutes is so
good. It's perfect.
I really love everything before they get to the MO.

(02:23:37):
I just like found myself dippingan interest.
I just found some of the sequences went went on way too
long. Like as I love Roger and Peter,
I would have liked to seen them do a variety of things together
rather than spend like 15 minutes running from one floor
to another without any sort of clear goal.

(02:24:00):
And if that only happened once that would be fine.
That happens like 3 or 4 times in this movie and it just felt
like drawn out. But in terms of the commentary,
it's making terms of the innovation.
So like the Savini's work with special effects music he's

(02:24:20):
using. I prefer night.
I think I still prefer night. I prefer the intimacy of that
movie. I prefer how you're getting
thrust right into AI. Think the central dilemma
between Ben and Harry is much more compelling to me here.

(02:24:41):
So but I understand why persons prefer Don.
I'm going to go back and re watch a couple of these others
like I'm when we do our rankings.
That will be fascinating becauseI don't know where I'm going to
have this compared to some of the others.
It's definitely better than Diary of the Dead, which, oh
boy, he wanted to make a bad student film and he succeeded.

(02:25:07):
Too much. I think we can put a pin on
night. I'm sorry.
I think we can put a pin on Don Nicole.
Give yourself some plugs. What's coming up with Bodies of
Horror and where can listeners find you?
Yeah, So Bodies of Horror is a podcast that looks at horror
films of all kind of different subgenres through the ones with

(02:25:30):
disability. So talking a lot about
disability. Yeah, in terms of like themes,
but also disabled characters. And, you know, why the fuck
could they not hire someone witha disability to play this
character? That's a good question that we
always like to ask, but it's great.
It is a Franklin positive podcast.

(02:25:52):
If you I would never understand that.
So Franklin is our representative in Congress.
We do love a Franklin from TexasChainsaw Massacre, also the
monkey from monkey chains. Those are our two.
I feel like Franklin would be a 9/11 truther just he just gives

(02:26:14):
me that energy. Perhaps, but you know what?
He went through some shit and I will hear his perspective.
I will vote against him however.But no.
Some really cool episodes on thehorizon.
We're dipping our toes into the waters of Argento and talking

(02:26:35):
about some of his works. My tails is one that is coming
up and really excited about that.
We're also the next episode that's coming out is a really
cool one. And we are talking.

(02:26:55):
We're, we're going Cronenberg, but we're going baby Cronenberg.
We're going. Brandon and we're talking about
antiviral, so really excited to dip into that too.
So, you know, if you want to hear folks talk about all things
disability and horn, you can find us over on the Anatomy of a

(02:27:16):
Scream Squad for biweekly. Very cool too.
Happy listen. My favorite thing about Brandon
Cronenberg was when I saw the premiere of Antiviral at
Fantastic Fest and he did AQ andA and someone asked like how his
how his dad's work influenced him as a filmmaker.

(02:27:38):
He's like, oh, it didn't. And he didn't say it like total
straight face. Like it didn't.
And it's like, come on, Sir, Sir, please.
I just watched Cronenberg's first real movie, I guess you
would call it Shivers. And there's there's literally a
moment where there are kids on dog leashes.

(02:28:00):
And I was like, OK, Brandon lifted that right into Infinity
Pool. Yeah.
You. I love shivers.
Which, to be fair, to be fair, Iwould love nothing more than for
me, a goth, to lead me around ina dog leash and just tell me I'm

(02:28:22):
a good boy. I I want this for myself.
I think I've said similar thingson the Movies for Life podcast.
I mean, to our best of few yearsago, 2024, was that what that
came out? 2023 I can't remember.
I love being married, I love my wife, I love my child.

(02:28:45):
There are certain women I would let absolutely ruin my white
life. Just like you know what do what
you got to do. I am just and that would be one
of them. All right, Brian top back.
What's coming up for you? What do you got what you did
your 5000 you have a piece that was coming out.

(02:29:06):
You had a huge. Piece I've got a couple I've
got. I just had a piece hit Bloody
Disgusting on The Descent celebrating its 20th
anniversary, if you can believe it, this year.
And I, I, I don't know, I think I took a interesting take on

(02:29:26):
that. So go over to Bloody Disgusting
and check that out if you so desire.
And yes, I do have a piece hitting Manor Vellum at the end
of July called The Enormous Von Shtuker about the about the
making and the themes and the impact of Young Frankenstein.

(02:29:48):
Lovely. It's a big one.
It really is a large piece. I'm going to stop that right
there. I I mean, it's it, it really, I
don't know how I can say it without it sounding dirty so.
It sounds dirty, Brian. It's alright.
It is a very lengthy piece, but I hope you enjoy.
Is it girthy? Is it a girthy piece?

(02:30:10):
It's all of the above, man, all of the above.
Excellent. And so that is coming out still,
you know plugging away. We've had to, we've run into a
couple of personal sort of things with family and things
like that, but we're working on getting Holy Terrors going

(02:30:33):
still. We have recorded a few episodes.
We're recording another one on coming up here real soon and so
we tried to record 1 but it justwent off the rails so we decided
to scrap it. More so than what I do here.
Unbelievable. It really went off the rails and

(02:30:53):
and there was a technical issue anyway.
So it's just like, let's just leave that one alone for a
little while. We'll come back to it.
So but that's going to be a podcast all about horror films
through the lens of religion andand spirituality and faith.
So I think that it's going to besomething good.

(02:31:16):
I'm really excited about gettingthat, getting that up on your
various podcast platforms. Excellent.
And if you, I'll keep people posted about that on my socials,
which is Brian Waves, 42, mostlyon Blue Sky, but at other places

(02:31:37):
like Instagram as well. Excellent.
Well, folks, you can find me at Mike Snooty and on blue sky.
You can find me at the same on Instagram and Mike chump change
on letterboxed, which is where you should follow me.
And you know, again, we'll say it again.
If you like the show rate reviewand subscribe to us so you get

(02:31:58):
all of our episodes who are coming up on 300 hoping to do.
I don't know. I don't know if we'll how we'll
mark it, if we do at all. I do want to do the top 25
horror movies of the this century, but that might be our
Halloween episode. I'm almost done putting together
the list. And then we'll start our votes.

(02:32:20):
And maybe we'll make that open to listeners to vote on too.
And we'll just like open it up or we'll ask some other of our
friends in the like the podcasting sphere to vote as
well. So we can kind of broaden it out
a little bit because Ari's just going to write saw 25 times.

(02:32:42):
Just, you know, which, who can blame her?
Like that's within her rights todo.
But that should be a really fun,fascinating episode.
But you can find us at pot on the pendulum.com.
You were on all the podcasting networks.
We'd love some ratings and reviews.
Again, we'd love to get a few more of them.

(02:33:02):
It's like the, you know, we get a come, they come in batches and
I would like, we need some more stinking batches to become a
patronpatreon.com/pod in the pendulum.
We'll be back again very soon with Day of the Dead, the third
film in the original trilogy, and we have a special guest
lined up for that one as well. And I think, Brian, you and I

(02:33:25):
are going to be on that. And I need to twist my arm some
arms for the second back half ofthis trilogy.
It's like, hey guys, it's looking a little grim on the
back half here. And it's cricket just like, oh,
I think Slack's not working. No one's responding.

(02:33:46):
I I said I do day and I do. I know.
I appreciate that. I appreciate you, Brian.
And then we do have the Night ofthe Dead remake that we're going
to cover, as well as Dawn of theDead.
I think, Nicole, those were yoursuggestions.
And I was like, yeah, we should do that.
And then when I'm like, no, we shouldn't.
We're like you already said we would.

(02:34:06):
I'm like, that's right, I did. So we will, because that's how
we roll here. I think there's obviously a lot
to talk about in terms of remakes and how things move in
cycles, but also how they focus.On different.
Things I I also want to just saylike I know that everyone has to
plug their patreons, but the potin the pendulum Patreon is.

(02:34:31):
A. It's wicked good.
And. We get loose.
You have, I think, just welcomedwith open arms a lot of people
to spearhead kind of their own franchises that they want to
talk about in really fascinatingways, and it's such an eclectic
and brilliant looks. What's the point of doing this

(02:34:52):
if we're going to say no to people like let's we're not
solving world hunger here. We're talking horror movies and
you guys are dedicating your time to this and like helping me
out. So if I'm like AI, don't.
I just don't want to be a taskmaster.
And I love the choices that we've made here, even the movies
that have driven me, even all ofyou.

(02:35:14):
Wrong turn 5 or whatever it was.Are so all of you are
conspiring? All right, folks, The summer of
George continues with Day of theDead.
I've said far too much. That's about it.
Take care.
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