May 19, 2021 • 33 mins
Emily and Eileen discuss true crime, ethical reporting and how the true crime genre is changing in this Crime ConVersation brought to you by CrimeConUK. You can check out our other shows CrimeLapse and Morbidology, and if you'd like to go to CrimeConUK tickets can be bought at crimecon.co.uk and you can use our codes CRIMELAPSE or MORBIDOLOGY for 10% off. We hope to see you there!
linktr.ee/crimelapse
morbidology.com
linktr.ee/crimelapse
morbidology.com
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:09):
Welcome to Crime Conversations, the truecrime podcast brought to you by crime Con
UK, the ultimate true crime weekendin the lead up to Crime Con in
London on September twenty fifth and twentysixth. Each week, we're bringing two
of our favorite podcasts together to findout more about their fascination with true crime.
Each conversation will explore subjects including howthey got involved in true crime,
(00:32):
the cases that have stuck in theirmind, the process behind their podcast,
and what they think makes a greattrue crime show. We'd also like to
say a big thank you to allthose true crime fans who sent questions to
ask our guests. To find outwho we'll be featuring on the podcast across
the season and for more information onour London event, check crimecon dot co
(00:52):
dot UK or visit our Instagram pageat crime Con underscore UK. Let's find
out who's on this episode. Hi. I'm Eilene, one of the hosts
of Crime Maps, along with Charliemy Brillin co host, who unfortunately won't
be joining us on this episode becauseshe's too busy being an absolute hero and
recovering from surgery. Crime Maps isan independent storytelling style podcast that uses primary
(01:15):
case audio to give you an immersiveinsight into each case. I also co
host The Shattered Window with Emily,which is an investigative series into the unsolved
murder of Jacqueline Wallaby. Hi,I'm Emily, the host of Morbidology.
Each week on Morbidology, I uncovera new true crime case using investigative research
combined with source audio. It's avictim focused podcast that mostly covers cases that
(01:40):
aren't widely documented in mainstream media.I also like to take an in depth
look at any systemic failures which hada part to play in the crime.
So what got you into true crimeand starting a podcast? Oh, good
question. Well, I've had aninterest in true crime from quite a young
age. My mom's actually a massive, massive true crime reader, especially when
(02:05):
I was growing up. More sonow she's into fiction, But when I
was a kid, it was alltrue crime, and she literally had hundreds
of true crime books. I rememberwhen I was around it or so,
that's genuinely no exaggeration. I askedif I could read her book on Fred
and Rose West. She understandably saidno, but I took it and read
(02:27):
it anyway. As you know yourself, the case is absolutely horrific. I'm
sure I read it and genuinely hadno clue what was going on. But
from then on I always tried tosteal her true crime books. And then
as I grew up, I becamemore interested in the psychology side of crime
(02:47):
and started my college course in thepsychology of criminal profiling, before taking more
of an interest in the legal sideof crime, as well as societal and
political factors which had a part toplay in the crime. So that's why
in Morbidology episodes, I'll usually covercases that highlight issues with them, for
(03:08):
example the justice system, policing,or the child protection system. I actually
started the podcast after I finished writingmy third true crime book, Cult Uncovered.
I found myself with a lot moretime than usual and wanted to branch
out. As you probably know,I already had the website Morbidology, where
(03:30):
I would write about true crime casesfrom all across the world, and I
thought I'd just build on that.I've always been obsessed with true grim podcasts
and was literally listening to ours ofpodcasts each day. I'd always been a
bit apprehensive about starting my own becauseof my accent and my voice. It's
(03:50):
not you know, when you listento a true ground podcast, it's usually
really polished voices with pretty common actssense and that made me always a bit
apprehensive. But am one day Ijust decided I would go for it,
give it a go and see whathappened. And here we are, almost
(04:11):
two years later. I'm glad youdid it, Yeah, I say him
here. It's kind of funny now, I thinking, like two years daw
in the line, it's still going. I thought it was going to be
like you maybe do one two episodesand like give up after a while because
nobody's listening to it. But Iwas pleasantly surprised. What about yourself,
(04:31):
Eilan, what got you into truecrime and starting crime Laps? I was
always interested in science when I wasa kid, like especially forensics, and
it was my dream to work becausea pathologists. I remember saying it in
we had like someone come to ourschool or the career day, Yeah,
and I said that I wanted tobe a pathologists and he like laughed and
(04:53):
he was like you know that,like there's like the state pathologists and I
was like okay. So then Irealized not like I was very unlikely to
get a job in Ireland. Yeah, you don't have money, it's to
see him here in the North.I was obsessed with CSI Cold Case,
like any true crime stories, andfor Christmas I always got fingerprint kits and
(05:15):
facial recons. Yeah it was mad. I got like this skull and I
had to like build a faith.Oh my god, that's so cool.
Yeah, it was really cool.Once I decided that I wouldn't be able
to get a job as it's alljust I started pursuing journalism and I went
to college for a year and itwas there that I realized that it was
not for me. The way somereporters approached crime in Ireland felt like sensationalist
(05:38):
and exploited it. I never wantedto knock on a victim's store and break
them with questions or retraumatize them.So years later, when my friend Fern
said that she was thinking of startinga true crime podcast, I said that
I'd do it with her because itcombined my interests, which are riding in
true crime. And we had noidea what we were doing at the start,
but usually we were taking under thewing of other podcasters like you.
(06:02):
So firm began her own venture Evidenceof a Crime and Charlie came on board
with me and Crime Naps and westarted over again last May. I knew
that I wanted to make it asdetailed as possible while remaining victim focused and
possibly highlighting some of the issues thatimpact victims and crime rates. Charlie is
a very empathetic person, and shestudied law for a time, so she
(06:23):
often has an understanding that I maynot have. And she's newer to true
crimes, so she often has afresh perspective on things that hasn't been tainted
by like any of the media coverage. Yeah, that's a good way to
look at it's important. I hadvery little experience with other true ground podcasts.
I was writing in researching, whichI knew how to do from college.
That was my comfort zone, andI'd listened to like Black Hands,
(06:46):
you know, the series, andI'd listen to Yeah, But I had
no idea how many true ground podcastswere out No, even though I was
a massive true crime podcast fan.It wasn't until I actually had a podcast
that I realized how many there were. I literally listened to like fifteen on
were Paid, but I didn't realizethere was literally thousands out there, and
(07:09):
it's for them. There's so manybut it's not an easy thing to do,
no at all. Like I hadto learn how to produce audio edit
episodes, Like I love doing thatnow and it's so weird because I have
ADHD, so piecing together the audiofeels like therapeutic to me in a weird
way. It feels like a puzzlebecause I can see it come together.
(07:30):
That's why you produced our episodes ofthe shop Window. That's the worst part
of podcast. Oh no, Idon't. I like listening to it.
Like, once it's complained, I'mlike, oh, I did that,
that's great, But actually doing it, I just get feels like a chicksaw.
No, you love chicksaws. Ilove audio editing. M I knew
(07:55):
that I wanted like Crime Maps tobe narrated with no discussion between myself,
up and Charlie because I just felta bit strange and certain myself, and
you know, because they aren't ourstories, We're just retailing them, and
I really felt like we had aresponsibility to do that ethically. Yeah,
definitely, they're the type of podcastsI prefer the most, you know,
(08:16):
just strict storytelling. That's because Ineed to concentrate when I'm listening to a
podcast, and if there's you know, like conversations between people, I'll end
up getting sidetracked me too, forsure. So is there a particular type
of crime that you cover or whatcases tend to catch or interest enough for
(08:39):
you to cover them on crime Laps, Well, we don't cover anything in
particular. Ideally, the cases willbe closed just so that we can access
the information we need from the police, courts, or media. We'd also
never want to jeopardize an active investigationor speculate at all, so we do
use audio in our episodes like youdo a morbidology, and usually these or
(09:00):
from police interviews, press conferences,or court recordings, so there's no checklist.
Really. We cover cases that wefeel we can tell in a way
that's respectful and informative and maybe highlightan issue that could have been handled better
or explain why something happened. Wetend to cover more obscure or lesser known
cases just because we don't want totell a story just for the sake of
(09:20):
it when there's nothing we can add. If there is a case we feel
needs more exposure, or someone reachesout to us to help We'll always do
our best, and there's always thedeeper themes that run through a story,
like societal issues or prejudice, mentalillness, stigma, or mischances to catch
the perpetrator. I think it's importantto highlight those even when they aren't directly
linked to the crime, because theydo give an insight into the time and
(09:43):
space that it occurred in What aboutYeah, definitely, I'm pretty much the
same as year. I cover awide variety of cases, and much like
crime laps, I also use sourceaudio, including nine one one calls,
interrogations, court testimony, so I'llalways cover a case that has a lot
of that information available, either publiclyor via a freedom of information request.
(10:09):
I also like to cover cases thatare a little bit more obscure and cases
that maybe didn't get enough attention inthe mainstream media. As you said,
I don't really want to rehash,you know, all of the most well
known true crime cases and instead bringmy listeners a case they've possibly never heard
of. I think there's a moralresponsibility when it comes to investigative journalism,
(10:35):
and there's a thin line between reportingand sensationalism, and that's something I always
have on my mind. When I'mwriting more biology episodes, it's extremely imperative
to me that when I'm telling someoneelse's story, I get the balance right
and give justice to the victim andtheir story. The last thing I want
to do, obviously, is doit a service to somebody when telling their
(10:58):
story. And that's why much ofthe episode of Morbidology will focus on the
victim as a person as opposed tojust a name in a newspaper as obviously
you know yourself. Quite often whenit comes to true crime writing, whether
it's in podcasts, books, newspaperarticles, wherever the victim can become lost,
(11:18):
I like to remind people in theepisodes that these are real people.
They're real people with personalities, hobbies, ambitions, and friends and family who
love them. So for example,this week's episode was on the disappearance of
Delinte M. Walker and it wasrequested by the Justice for Delinte M.
Walker facebook group. And last week'sepisode was on a string of murders in
(11:41):
Bari in nineteen ninety three, andthat one was requested by a listener who
had a really close connection to thecase. I think if someone's reaching out
to you and they trust you totell someone else's story, then you really
do need to go about it inan ethical way. And that's something that
we've both touched on in the ShatteredWindow as well. Yeah, definitely,
(12:03):
and even when it's someone asking youto cover it, it is your duty
to investigate all angles. Yeah,like you don't want to be biased.
Exactly what's your research process? Iusually have a big, massive list of
no exaggeration, about forty cases.It's just cases, you know I'm reading
(12:28):
about in the media, cases thatyou're following on trial, and I always
make a list of them, justeven if I don't cover them, just
as potentials to cover in the future. So first of all, I'll file
a freedom of information request for anumber of those cases and then just wait
and see what I get back.While I'm waiting to get the case files
I've requested, as well as anysource audio that I've requested, I'll start
(12:52):
researching mainly through archive subscription services.They are a fantastic source for more local,
small town newspaper things that you won'tfind on the surface web. I
know you're a massive user of thearchived subscription services as well, so Andy.
So depending on long how long ittakes for the request to get back
(13:13):
some episodes, they're weeks going onmonths in the making, and that's why
I'll always fill a bunch of requestsat the same time. I am.
I didn't actually publish the first episodeof Morbidology, so I already had eight
written and recorded and another six orso in the pipeline. I think,
as we spoke about earlier, Idon't. I think when you start a
(13:37):
podcast you don't actually realize how muchwork goes into it. So like when
I'm writing books, I do thesame, but when you're publishing one episode
per week, it's a lot moretime consuming, Like you've got to focus
on that specific case and then moveon to the next one instead of just
one thing. And that's a big, big learning curve. What about yourself,
(14:01):
what's your research process for crime maps. Mine's quite similar to yours.
I'll start with researching as much asI can to see if I can get
a full picture of what happened andunderstanding enough so that I can structure my
script in a new way. Likeyou said, newspaper archives are amazing for
sources, and a lot of theinformation about the crime comes out during the
(14:22):
trial process. So I'll always tryto get transcripts or watch the trial itself
or read any coverage, which isobviously really time for him. And but
I feel like I wouldn't be doingit right if I didn't absolutely exhaust all
of the information that's available. Soeither myself or Charlie will take responsibility for
a case and we'll go through theinformation to structure it as we normally do,
(14:43):
which is not only the crime itself, but any background information, trial
procedure and the aftermath. And withour series, the Shattered Window was a
bit different, wasn't it. Yeah, you would already research Jacqueline to Wallaby
for your book, and we workedon expanding every bit of information and contacting
everyone we could to build a clearerpicture of what happened at each stage of
(15:05):
the investigation and trial. That wasreally time consuming. It took us around,
yeah, nine months of working almostevery day to get the information we
needed. And because we're in Irelandas well, and the people we were
contacting were mostly in America, itwas the time difference was just awkward at
times where we were really lucky thatwe were able to speak to them,
(15:28):
Like David protests, rob Warden,Joseph Cosman Linda, between Catherine and Bob
Biman, who went as far assending us trial transcripts from the original trials
and the appellate ring. We wereso lucky to have them. I know.
It was a good experience. Itwas brilliant, and we also had
to learn as much as we couldabout the other aspects that are in the
series, like the legal process,appellate court, forensics, and also to
(15:54):
examine our role as the members ofthe media in a case like this that
was so influenced by one sided fora period of time. Yeah, definitely
having an investigative series on just onecase. It was completely different than covering
a new case per week. Sofor example, we'd spend ages looking at
one specific angle and then we'd findout something new which completely contradicted that angle
(16:18):
that we spent so much time researchingand investigating. In a way, you
kind of become obsessed with the case, even more so when it's an unsolved
case and you really want to seejustice served. I think for me personally
and probably for you too, Eileen, working on that one case for so
long and getting so involved in thatone case, it really taught me quite
(16:41):
a lot both about investigative research,as well as writing in general and the
media. So is there a momentor a case that has really impacted you.
For me, it would be whenwe were working on those impacted by
Hamas to raise awareness of the paroleprocess in Ireland and how it affects victims
(17:03):
and their families. I think it'seasy to hear a story and think,
oh, that's awful, I'm gladthey got justice, and think that's the
end of it. It's all wrappedup. But the reality for those impacted
by crime is that they have togo through so much more, like parole
hearings and trying to move forward withtheir lives. Speaking with mothers who've lost
their children like Helena O'Connor and McLeanand Kathleen Chatta, as well as shindo'
(17:26):
leary who survived an attack the killedher best friend, and Gina who spoke
to us about her cousin Fiona Senatewho's still missing. That really reminded us
of the importance of ethical reporting,that we had a duty to the people
we speak about. I think there'sso much true crime media these days that
people become desensitized to the content andalmost consume it as entertainment. We want
(17:48):
to remind people that these are reallives that have been taken and destroyed.
Yeah, I think that's really reallyimportant, And that's such an impressive thing
that you've done with Crime Laps.And I know you don't like talking about
yourself, but I have to sayyou should be so proud of your career,
Emily, not only as a podcaster, but as a writer. You've
(18:10):
written three books and co wrote another. I honestly don't know how you do
it all and stay so humble.Mysteries uncovered and of course unsolved child murders
where you first wrote about Jackline toWallaby. I think it says a lot
about you that over three years sinceyou first wrote about it, you've felt
as though you could give it moreexposure through the series. And I personally
(18:32):
have learned so much from working withyou and being your friend. And if
I didn't know how normal you werein real life, I wouldn't I would
think that you were a celebrity.And I know you're not one to brag
about your compliments or ever acknowledge them. Both. Congratulations on one hundred episodes
of Morbiology and I'm honored to beyour cost on the shattered window. Bye,
(18:55):
Yeah, you have my cringing.So we're both massive true crime documentary
fans. But if you had torecommend just one true crime documentary, what
would it be. This is sucha tough question because, as you know,
I'm literally watched true crime documentaries everysingle night. But I would like
to recommend one that it doesn't seemto be as well known as it should
(19:18):
be. Yeah, like I waswhen I was googling it the other day,
I saw that it was actually upfor an Oscar I think it was,
which I had no clue about becauseeveryone I ask they have no idea
what it is. So the documentaryI would like to recommend is Thirteenth.
It came out in two and sixteen, and it takes an in depth look
(19:38):
at racial inequality as seen through theprison system in the United States. It
begins by staring the twenty five percentof the world's population who are incarcerated or
incarcerated in the United States, despitethe fact that United States has just five
percent of the world's population. Itshows the massive growth in the prison population
in the United States. For example, in nineteen seventy there were around two
(20:03):
hundred thousand Americans incarcerated, but nowthat number is more than two million.
So the documentary is called the Thirteenthbecause of the thirteenth Amendment to the United
States Constitution, which abolished slavery.However, there was a loophole in the
wording of the thirteenth Amendment, andthat loophole was except as a punishment for
crime. This loophole would open thedoors to an era of mass incarceration.
(20:29):
So the documentary Thirteenth highlights the waythat those words have been exploited as a
way to maintain institutional racism from theend of the Civil War all the way
to two sixteen, which was whenthe documentary was made. It touches on
the civil rights movement and takes alook at the murder of Emmett till as
well as the film The Birth ofthe Nation and Ronald Reagan's declaration of the
(20:52):
War on Drugs, which was exposedas an effort to decrease black votership,
as well as President Clinton's nineteen ninetyfour Crime Bill of mandatory minimum prison sentences
and three strike policies. So thedocumentary Thirteenth is an extremely powerful and eye
opening documentary. It shows that essentiallyslavery still exists in prison with mass incarceration
(21:14):
and sweatshops, and that it existsin overwhelmingly black ranks. It also highlights
the prison system in the United Statesis geared against people of color, and
it does so in a very detailedand impressive way as opposed to just spouting
emotionally charged statements. So throughout thedocumentary we'll hear we hear from historians,
politicians on both sides of the coin, college professors, social activists, and
(21:40):
more. It means a very disturbingpicture to show that after slavery was abolished,
the United States needed a way toeconomically recover from the Civil War.
At the time, the main sourceof income in the South with cotton picking.
This led to an arnist perception ofcriminality towards black people, and this,
combined with the rise of corporations benefitingfrom the labor of prisoners, led
(22:03):
to a justice system which is setup against those it claims to protect.
Throughout the documentary, which is directedby Ava Duverney, she reminds the viewers
that before black people were painted asperpetrators of crime, they were the victims
of it. It's a very emotionaland distressing watch, which includes footage of
Eric Gardner, Philandro Castile, andTamor Rice. As far as I'm aware,
(22:26):
it should still be on Netflix,so you should definitely check out the
documentary Thirteenth And what about yourself,Eileen, give me a good true crime
documentary recommendation? All right? Firstof all, Thirteenth is an excellent recommendation
and definitely something everyone should watch andtry to understand the issues that continue to
(22:48):
affect black people. For me,it would be Dear Zachary or the Central
Part five. I can't pick one. Oh, it's tough to pick one.
I was trying to think, butgood fix. Dear Zachary is a
letter to a son about his father, Andrew Bagby. Andrew Bagby was murdered
in thousand and one and his possessivex, Shirley Turner, was immediately suspected,
(23:12):
but she moved away to Newfoundland.She reveals that she's pregnant with Andrew's
child, and so his childhood friendKurt begins making a documentary about Andrew's life
to show his son. There isa detailed episode on the documentary on What's
Up doc Podcast, which is fantasticand it's my go to for any documentary
recommendations. I've not listened to thatone. Yeah, it's a great documentary,
(23:34):
but I've not. I've not.I don't think i've heard that one.
I probably avoided The episode on thedocumentaries made me cry. Oh,
say, that's probably why I've avoidedit, because the documentary it's one of
them documentaries you watch once and thenyou think about it for the rest of
your life. I've never watched ittwice because I couldn't. I couldn't watch
again. I just felt like itwas worth going through it again to major
(23:59):
Oh don't think I could like.The documentary details the grief of Andrew's friends
and family, as well as thetoxic relationship he had which early Turner,
and the fight for justice in hisdeath. And it unfolds in real time,
so we see Andrew's parents raising theirgrandson, Zachary and surely managing to
avoid prison for way too long.It's a grippin documentary that you should go
(24:22):
into blind. So if you're goingto watch it, don't google anything,
but be warned it will break yourheart. It exposes some serious issues within
the justice system. Nothing does thatlike My next recommendation, which is the
Central Park five. I think mostpeople are familiar with this story now because
of the dramatized Netflix series When TheySee Us. But the documentary is directed
(24:47):
by Ken Burns and his daughter Sarah, and it details the nineteen eighty nine
case of a horrific assault on thejogger in Central Park. The people arrested
and ultimately imprisoned for the crime.We're a group of five teenage boys who
were vilified the media. It's sucha horror and watch to watch to see
what these boys went through and howracism and prejudice helped railroad them into a
(25:07):
false conviction. Yeah, I thinkthat's definitely a good recommendation. It's such
an eye open and documentary. Bothof them they're both so different, but
both highlights some very important issues.I think that's what's great about true crime
is that it can really it canopen your eyes to something and it sticks
(25:27):
with you. I think the typeof stories that are told in a way
that you feel compelled to spread theword about, that's what we need more
of than true crime. Oh definitely, what for sure do you think,
like, why do you think truecrime captivates so many people? It's a
good question. I think one ofthe main raisins would be because true crime
(25:53):
stories, whether it's podcast, books, TV shows, documentaries, whatever,
it involves all of the most emotionalsubject so great violent, sex, par
obsession, and death. I thinkin a way, true crime can be
quite tantalizing and it can be difficultto look away from. So for example,
when there's a crash at the sideof the road, people will always
(26:15):
slow down and try and get aglance. I think in a way,
true crime allows us to take alook into a world that hopefully none of
us will ever experience firsthand. It'sso outside the realms of our own,
say, of lives, that wecan't help but be gripped when it comes
to true grime. There's a feelingof gratification which can be intensified at the
(26:37):
end of the story. But it'san unsolved case. It kind of creates
a global game of who done it? You know, we like to feel
as though we're part of something,and especially with social media, we can
analyze the evidence, but before usbecome armchair detectives throwing around personal theories and
suspects. I agree with you.I think there is a fine line between
(26:59):
producing something entertainment and retelling the worstmoments of someone's life. I think at
the minute, we're seeing a changewithin the genre where people are becoming more
aware of the responsibility true crime creatorshave to being ethical and respecting those involved.
Like Morbidology, crime maps is verymuch victim centric, and we never
want to glorify or romanticize the issueswe cover, but we do want people
(27:22):
to know that there are so manydifferent factors that influence a criminal case and
the criminal themselves personally. I wantto remove that comfort blanket of people thinking,
oh, that is such a tragedy, but it would never happen to
me, because that's desensitizing, andI want people to feel impacted by the
grief and the struggles that are ongoingin the hopes that it will eventually bring
(27:44):
out some change the general interest andtrue crime has always been around. I
mean, how many historical cases haveyour research where the crime seam was examinated
by people who gathered to look atthe horror. Remember, yeah, that's
just going to say the one wewere speaking about on stereo the other week.
People someone left with a portion ofthe victim's skull in his pocket.
(28:07):
It's one like, but people alwaysused to go to crime scenes and you
know, look how many people studyoutside waiting for ted public execution. It's
going to say public executions as well. That was a day out for the
family back in the day. Yeah, it's always been around, and now
you can just kind of do itfrom a distance, so like most of
(28:27):
us have a need to try andat least understand how and why things happen.
I think it's a kind of selfpreservation thing, and with mainstream media
offering that insight, thankfully people aren'trapes and true crime scenes and harassing people
as much. I also we knowthat women are often the victims of ilent
crime, and we know that themajority of true crime listeners are female,
(28:51):
which I think is down to adesire to know the worst that can happen
and see it almost packaged up intolike a conclusive ending, and it feels
like you said, say, yeah, it's so far remote from your normal
life that it feels safe to watchand list like. Definitely, at times
it can be a problematic genre,and especially if speculation goes out of control.
(29:12):
And I also think it's a powerfulgenre where there can be true,
meaningful change as a result of acase getting more exposure, someone coming forward
with information or spotting signs of dangerwithin their relationship, or even in a
situation with a stranger. Yeah,definitely. I think it makes you a
lot more aware of your surroundings andeven aware of other people's surroundings. Yeah.
(29:37):
So what tips would you have foranyone who wants to start out their
own podcast? Well, first,I think the more people that listen,
the more likely you are to receivenegative feedback. Unfortunately, people are more
likely to complain than to leave apositive review. You don't you know.
I used to work as a chefand you'd rarely get people giving compliments to
(30:03):
the chef. Not because I wasback, No, nobody does that.
Nobody. Yeah, they're they're quickerto complain. So you know, if
it happens, don't let it getto you. If it isn't constructive,
then it's not worth worrying about.It takes time to find your style and
get comfortable producing. It's a lotof work, more than most people realize.
(30:25):
And I mean one episode can takebetween forty to sixty hours of actual
work at your computer, and theseries took us nine months with the two
of us who knew what podcasting takeacts. You know, and if it's
something you have a passion for andsomething you can dedicate the time to,
then go for it. My mainadvice would be to make sure your research
is as thorough as possible, andalways credit and sight where you got the
(30:48):
information from. Try to be asrespectful as possible to the victims, their
families and anyone involved. You know, you never know who's listening, and
try to be as consistent as possible, but focus on quality over want to
see. Use your platform for goodwhere you can, and don't be afraid
to reach it to other podcasters.We all started somewhere, and if I
hadn't been for Emily and many otherseason creators, I would not have been
(31:10):
able to make grind Up to mycareer a chance. That's some very solid
advice. I think the best bitof advice, on top of what you've
already said, is to not overthinkit and just do it. So for
Ages, as I mentioned at thestart, I put off creating a podcast
because I assumed that nobody would listenand that those who did listen would hate
it, either because of my voiceor because of the compent It also suggests
(31:34):
getting a few episodes written and recordedbefore publishing the first one, so that
you're not working from week to weekor fortnite to fortnite. I think people
are always surprised at how much workgoes into a podcast if it's a scripted
podcast, and being ahead before youeven begin really does make it a lot
easier. As Aileen said, youneed to be consistent with releasing episodes and
(31:56):
it can become a bit daunting ifyou're not on top of it, so
definitely get a good couple weeks aheadbefore starting, but also suggests getting on
social media and don't be afraid ofreaching out to other podcasters to ask for
advice, or to even to askthem to listen to your episodes and offer
any feedback. Remember when I started, I sent my episode to a few
(32:16):
podcasters and asked for feedback and criticism, and honestly, everyone was just so
lovely. I always played promos forother podcasts on Morbidology, especially podcasts that
are just starting out, and there'sa lot of other podcasters who do the
same. So if you do makea podcast, make sure to reach out,
send also message and we'll have yourback. My final piece of advice
(32:39):
is to make something that you're proudof. I know it sounds super cliche,
but try not to worry or getcaught up in the downloads and just
to create something that you're proud of. Thanks for listening to this special episode.
We'll be at crime Con in Londonon September twenty fifth and twenty six
If you'd like to come, Ticketsare on sale now go to crime con
(33:00):
dot co dot uk
Welcome to Crime Conversations, the truecrime podcast brought to you by crime Con
UK, the ultimate true crime weekendin the lead up to Crime Con in
London on September twenty fifth and twentysixth. Each week, we're bringing two
of our favorite podcasts together to findout more about their fascination with true crime.
Each conversation will explore subjects including howthey got involved in true crime,
(00:32):
the cases that have stuck in theirmind, the process behind their podcast,
and what they think makes a greattrue crime show. We'd also like to
say a big thank you to allthose true crime fans who sent questions to
ask our guests. To find outwho we'll be featuring on the podcast across
the season and for more information onour London event, check crimecon dot co
(00:52):
dot UK or visit our Instagram pageat crime Con underscore UK. Let's find
out who's on this episode. Hi. I'm Eilene, one of the hosts
of Crime Maps, along with Charliemy Brillin co host, who unfortunately won't
be joining us on this episode becauseshe's too busy being an absolute hero and
recovering from surgery. Crime Maps isan independent storytelling style podcast that uses primary
(01:15):
case audio to give you an immersiveinsight into each case. I also co
host The Shattered Window with Emily,which is an investigative series into the unsolved
murder of Jacqueline Wallaby. Hi,I'm Emily, the host of Morbidology.
Each week on Morbidology, I uncovera new true crime case using investigative research
combined with source audio. It's avictim focused podcast that mostly covers cases that
(01:40):
aren't widely documented in mainstream media.I also like to take an in depth
look at any systemic failures which hada part to play in the crime.
So what got you into true crimeand starting a podcast? Oh, good
question. Well, I've had aninterest in true crime from quite a young
age. My mom's actually a massive, massive true crime reader, especially when
(02:05):
I was growing up. More sonow she's into fiction, But when I
was a kid, it was alltrue crime, and she literally had hundreds
of true crime books. I rememberwhen I was around it or so,
that's genuinely no exaggeration. I askedif I could read her book on Fred
and Rose West. She understandably saidno, but I took it and read
(02:27):
it anyway. As you know yourself, the case is absolutely horrific. I'm
sure I read it and genuinely hadno clue what was going on. But
from then on I always tried tosteal her true crime books. And then
as I grew up, I becamemore interested in the psychology side of crime
(02:47):
and started my college course in thepsychology of criminal profiling, before taking more
of an interest in the legal sideof crime, as well as societal and
political factors which had a part toplay in the crime. So that's why
in Morbidology episodes, I'll usually covercases that highlight issues with them, for
(03:08):
example the justice system, policing,or the child protection system. I actually
started the podcast after I finished writingmy third true crime book, Cult Uncovered.
I found myself with a lot moretime than usual and wanted to branch
out. As you probably know,I already had the website Morbidology, where
(03:30):
I would write about true crime casesfrom all across the world, and I
thought I'd just build on that.I've always been obsessed with true grim podcasts
and was literally listening to ours ofpodcasts each day. I'd always been a
bit apprehensive about starting my own becauseof my accent and my voice. It's
(03:50):
not you know, when you listento a true ground podcast, it's usually
really polished voices with pretty common actssense and that made me always a bit
apprehensive. But am one day Ijust decided I would go for it,
give it a go and see whathappened. And here we are, almost
(04:11):
two years later. I'm glad youdid it, Yeah, I say him
here. It's kind of funny now, I thinking, like two years daw
in the line, it's still going. I thought it was going to be
like you maybe do one two episodesand like give up after a while because
nobody's listening to it. But Iwas pleasantly surprised. What about yourself,
(04:31):
Eilan, what got you into truecrime and starting crime Laps? I was
always interested in science when I wasa kid, like especially forensics, and
it was my dream to work becausea pathologists. I remember saying it in
we had like someone come to ourschool or the career day, Yeah,
and I said that I wanted tobe a pathologists and he like laughed and
(04:53):
he was like you know that,like there's like the state pathologists and I
was like okay. So then Irealized not like I was very unlikely to
get a job in Ireland. Yeah, you don't have money, it's to
see him here in the North.I was obsessed with CSI Cold Case,
like any true crime stories, andfor Christmas I always got fingerprint kits and
(05:15):
facial recons. Yeah it was mad. I got like this skull and I
had to like build a faith.Oh my god, that's so cool.
Yeah, it was really cool.Once I decided that I wouldn't be able
to get a job as it's alljust I started pursuing journalism and I went
to college for a year and itwas there that I realized that it was
not for me. The way somereporters approached crime in Ireland felt like sensationalist
(05:38):
and exploited it. I never wantedto knock on a victim's store and break
them with questions or retraumatize them.So years later, when my friend Fern
said that she was thinking of startinga true crime podcast, I said that
I'd do it with her because itcombined my interests, which are riding in
true crime. And we had noidea what we were doing at the start,
but usually we were taking under thewing of other podcasters like you.
(06:02):
So firm began her own venture Evidenceof a Crime and Charlie came on board
with me and Crime Naps and westarted over again last May. I knew
that I wanted to make it asdetailed as possible while remaining victim focused and
possibly highlighting some of the issues thatimpact victims and crime rates. Charlie is
a very empathetic person, and shestudied law for a time, so she
(06:23):
often has an understanding that I maynot have. And she's newer to true
crimes, so she often has afresh perspective on things that hasn't been tainted
by like any of the media coverage. Yeah, that's a good way to
look at it's important. I hadvery little experience with other true ground podcasts.
I was writing in researching, whichI knew how to do from college.
That was my comfort zone, andI'd listened to like Black Hands,
(06:46):
you know, the series, andI'd listen to Yeah, But I had
no idea how many true ground podcastswere out No, even though I was
a massive true crime podcast fan.It wasn't until I actually had a podcast
that I realized how many there were. I literally listened to like fifteen on
were Paid, but I didn't realizethere was literally thousands out there, and
(07:09):
it's for them. There's so manybut it's not an easy thing to do,
no at all. Like I hadto learn how to produce audio edit
episodes, Like I love doing thatnow and it's so weird because I have
ADHD, so piecing together the audiofeels like therapeutic to me in a weird
way. It feels like a puzzlebecause I can see it come together.
(07:30):
That's why you produced our episodes ofthe shop Window. That's the worst part
of podcast. Oh no, Idon't. I like listening to it.
Like, once it's complained, I'mlike, oh, I did that,
that's great, But actually doing it, I just get feels like a chicksaw.
No, you love chicksaws. Ilove audio editing. M I knew
(07:55):
that I wanted like Crime Maps tobe narrated with no discussion between myself,
up and Charlie because I just felta bit strange and certain myself, and
you know, because they aren't ourstories, We're just retailing them, and
I really felt like we had aresponsibility to do that ethically. Yeah,
definitely, they're the type of podcastsI prefer the most, you know,
(08:16):
just strict storytelling. That's because Ineed to concentrate when I'm listening to a
podcast, and if there's you know, like conversations between people, I'll end
up getting sidetracked me too, forsure. So is there a particular type
of crime that you cover or whatcases tend to catch or interest enough for
(08:39):
you to cover them on crime Laps, Well, we don't cover anything in
particular. Ideally, the cases willbe closed just so that we can access
the information we need from the police, courts, or media. We'd also
never want to jeopardize an active investigationor speculate at all, so we do
use audio in our episodes like youdo a morbidology, and usually these or
(09:00):
from police interviews, press conferences,or court recordings, so there's no checklist.
Really. We cover cases that wefeel we can tell in a way
that's respectful and informative and maybe highlightan issue that could have been handled better
or explain why something happened. Wetend to cover more obscure or lesser known
cases just because we don't want totell a story just for the sake of
(09:20):
it when there's nothing we can add. If there is a case we feel
needs more exposure, or someone reachesout to us to help We'll always do
our best, and there's always thedeeper themes that run through a story,
like societal issues or prejudice, mentalillness, stigma, or mischances to catch
the perpetrator. I think it's importantto highlight those even when they aren't directly
linked to the crime, because theydo give an insight into the time and
(09:43):
space that it occurred in What aboutYeah, definitely, I'm pretty much the
same as year. I cover awide variety of cases, and much like
crime laps, I also use sourceaudio, including nine one one calls,
interrogations, court testimony, so I'llalways cover a case that has a lot
of that information available, either publiclyor via a freedom of information request.
(10:09):
I also like to cover cases thatare a little bit more obscure and cases
that maybe didn't get enough attention inthe mainstream media. As you said,
I don't really want to rehash,you know, all of the most well
known true crime cases and instead bringmy listeners a case they've possibly never heard
of. I think there's a moralresponsibility when it comes to investigative journalism,
(10:35):
and there's a thin line between reportingand sensationalism, and that's something I always
have on my mind. When I'mwriting more biology episodes, it's extremely imperative
to me that when I'm telling someoneelse's story, I get the balance right
and give justice to the victim andtheir story. The last thing I want
to do, obviously, is doit a service to somebody when telling their
(10:58):
story. And that's why much ofthe episode of Morbidology will focus on the
victim as a person as opposed tojust a name in a newspaper as obviously
you know yourself. Quite often whenit comes to true crime writing, whether
it's in podcasts, books, newspaperarticles, wherever the victim can become lost,
(11:18):
I like to remind people in theepisodes that these are real people.
They're real people with personalities, hobbies, ambitions, and friends and family who
love them. So for example,this week's episode was on the disappearance of
Delinte M. Walker and it wasrequested by the Justice for Delinte M.
Walker facebook group. And last week'sepisode was on a string of murders in
(11:41):
Bari in nineteen ninety three, andthat one was requested by a listener who
had a really close connection to thecase. I think if someone's reaching out
to you and they trust you totell someone else's story, then you really
do need to go about it inan ethical way. And that's something that
we've both touched on in the ShatteredWindow as well. Yeah, definitely,
(12:03):
and even when it's someone asking youto cover it, it is your duty
to investigate all angles. Yeah,like you don't want to be biased.
Exactly what's your research process? Iusually have a big, massive list of
no exaggeration, about forty cases.It's just cases, you know I'm reading
(12:28):
about in the media, cases thatyou're following on trial, and I always
make a list of them, justeven if I don't cover them, just
as potentials to cover in the future. So first of all, I'll file
a freedom of information request for anumber of those cases and then just wait
and see what I get back.While I'm waiting to get the case files
I've requested, as well as anysource audio that I've requested, I'll start
(12:52):
researching mainly through archive subscription services.They are a fantastic source for more local,
small town newspaper things that you won'tfind on the surface web. I
know you're a massive user of thearchived subscription services as well, so Andy.
So depending on long how long ittakes for the request to get back
(13:13):
some episodes, they're weeks going onmonths in the making, and that's why
I'll always fill a bunch of requestsat the same time. I am.
I didn't actually publish the first episodeof Morbidology, so I already had eight
written and recorded and another six orso in the pipeline. I think,
as we spoke about earlier, Idon't. I think when you start a
(13:37):
podcast you don't actually realize how muchwork goes into it. So like when
I'm writing books, I do thesame, but when you're publishing one episode
per week, it's a lot moretime consuming, Like you've got to focus
on that specific case and then moveon to the next one instead of just
one thing. And that's a big, big learning curve. What about yourself,
(14:01):
what's your research process for crime maps. Mine's quite similar to yours.
I'll start with researching as much asI can to see if I can get
a full picture of what happened andunderstanding enough so that I can structure my
script in a new way. Likeyou said, newspaper archives are amazing for
sources, and a lot of theinformation about the crime comes out during the
(14:22):
trial process. So I'll always tryto get transcripts or watch the trial itself
or read any coverage, which isobviously really time for him. And but
I feel like I wouldn't be doingit right if I didn't absolutely exhaust all
of the information that's available. Soeither myself or Charlie will take responsibility for
a case and we'll go through theinformation to structure it as we normally do,
(14:43):
which is not only the crime itself, but any background information, trial
procedure and the aftermath. And withour series, the Shattered Window was a
bit different, wasn't it. Yeah, you would already research Jacqueline to Wallaby
for your book, and we workedon expanding every bit of information and contacting
everyone we could to build a clearerpicture of what happened at each stage of
(15:05):
the investigation and trial. That wasreally time consuming. It took us around,
yeah, nine months of working almostevery day to get the information we
needed. And because we're in Irelandas well, and the people we were
contacting were mostly in America, itwas the time difference was just awkward at
times where we were really lucky thatwe were able to speak to them,
(15:28):
Like David protests, rob Warden,Joseph Cosman Linda, between Catherine and Bob
Biman, who went as far assending us trial transcripts from the original trials
and the appellate ring. We wereso lucky to have them. I know.
It was a good experience. Itwas brilliant, and we also had
to learn as much as we couldabout the other aspects that are in the
series, like the legal process,appellate court, forensics, and also to
(15:54):
examine our role as the members ofthe media in a case like this that
was so influenced by one sided fora period of time. Yeah, definitely
having an investigative series on just onecase. It was completely different than covering
a new case per week. Sofor example, we'd spend ages looking at
one specific angle and then we'd findout something new which completely contradicted that angle
(16:18):
that we spent so much time researchingand investigating. In a way, you
kind of become obsessed with the case, even more so when it's an unsolved
case and you really want to seejustice served. I think for me personally
and probably for you too, Eileen, working on that one case for so
long and getting so involved in thatone case, it really taught me quite
(16:41):
a lot both about investigative research,as well as writing in general and the
media. So is there a momentor a case that has really impacted you.
For me, it would be whenwe were working on those impacted by
Hamas to raise awareness of the paroleprocess in Ireland and how it affects victims
(17:03):
and their families. I think it'seasy to hear a story and think,
oh, that's awful, I'm gladthey got justice, and think that's the
end of it. It's all wrappedup. But the reality for those impacted
by crime is that they have togo through so much more, like parole
hearings and trying to move forward withtheir lives. Speaking with mothers who've lost
their children like Helena O'Connor and McLeanand Kathleen Chatta, as well as shindo'
(17:26):
leary who survived an attack the killedher best friend, and Gina who spoke
to us about her cousin Fiona Senatewho's still missing. That really reminded us
of the importance of ethical reporting,that we had a duty to the people
we speak about. I think there'sso much true crime media these days that
people become desensitized to the content andalmost consume it as entertainment. We want
(17:48):
to remind people that these are reallives that have been taken and destroyed.
Yeah, I think that's really reallyimportant, And that's such an impressive thing
that you've done with Crime Laps.And I know you don't like talking about
yourself, but I have to sayyou should be so proud of your career,
Emily, not only as a podcaster, but as a writer. You've
(18:10):
written three books and co wrote another. I honestly don't know how you do
it all and stay so humble.Mysteries uncovered and of course unsolved child murders
where you first wrote about Jackline toWallaby. I think it says a lot
about you that over three years sinceyou first wrote about it, you've felt
as though you could give it moreexposure through the series. And I personally
(18:32):
have learned so much from working withyou and being your friend. And if
I didn't know how normal you werein real life, I wouldn't I would
think that you were a celebrity.And I know you're not one to brag
about your compliments or ever acknowledge them. Both. Congratulations on one hundred episodes
of Morbiology and I'm honored to beyour cost on the shattered window. Bye,
(18:55):
Yeah, you have my cringing.So we're both massive true crime documentary
fans. But if you had torecommend just one true crime documentary, what
would it be. This is sucha tough question because, as you know,
I'm literally watched true crime documentaries everysingle night. But I would like
to recommend one that it doesn't seemto be as well known as it should
(19:18):
be. Yeah, like I waswhen I was googling it the other day,
I saw that it was actually upfor an Oscar I think it was,
which I had no clue about becauseeveryone I ask they have no idea
what it is. So the documentaryI would like to recommend is Thirteenth.
It came out in two and sixteen, and it takes an in depth look
(19:38):
at racial inequality as seen through theprison system in the United States. It
begins by staring the twenty five percentof the world's population who are incarcerated or
incarcerated in the United States, despitethe fact that United States has just five
percent of the world's population. Itshows the massive growth in the prison population
in the United States. For example, in nineteen seventy there were around two
(20:03):
hundred thousand Americans incarcerated, but nowthat number is more than two million.
So the documentary is called the Thirteenthbecause of the thirteenth Amendment to the United
States Constitution, which abolished slavery.However, there was a loophole in the
wording of the thirteenth Amendment, andthat loophole was except as a punishment for
crime. This loophole would open thedoors to an era of mass incarceration.
(20:29):
So the documentary Thirteenth highlights the waythat those words have been exploited as a
way to maintain institutional racism from theend of the Civil War all the way
to two sixteen, which was whenthe documentary was made. It touches on
the civil rights movement and takes alook at the murder of Emmett till as
well as the film The Birth ofthe Nation and Ronald Reagan's declaration of the
(20:52):
War on Drugs, which was exposedas an effort to decrease black votership,
as well as President Clinton's nineteen ninetyfour Crime Bill of mandatory minimum prison sentences
and three strike policies. So thedocumentary Thirteenth is an extremely powerful and eye
opening documentary. It shows that essentiallyslavery still exists in prison with mass incarceration
(21:14):
and sweatshops, and that it existsin overwhelmingly black ranks. It also highlights
the prison system in the United Statesis geared against people of color, and
it does so in a very detailedand impressive way as opposed to just spouting
emotionally charged statements. So throughout thedocumentary we'll hear we hear from historians,
politicians on both sides of the coin, college professors, social activists, and
(21:40):
more. It means a very disturbingpicture to show that after slavery was abolished,
the United States needed a way toeconomically recover from the Civil War.
At the time, the main sourceof income in the South with cotton picking.
This led to an arnist perception ofcriminality towards black people, and this,
combined with the rise of corporations benefitingfrom the labor of prisoners, led
(22:03):
to a justice system which is setup against those it claims to protect.
Throughout the documentary, which is directedby Ava Duverney, she reminds the viewers
that before black people were painted asperpetrators of crime, they were the victims
of it. It's a very emotionaland distressing watch, which includes footage of
Eric Gardner, Philandro Castile, andTamor Rice. As far as I'm aware,
(22:26):
it should still be on Netflix,so you should definitely check out the
documentary Thirteenth And what about yourself,Eileen, give me a good true crime
documentary recommendation? All right? Firstof all, Thirteenth is an excellent recommendation
and definitely something everyone should watch andtry to understand the issues that continue to
(22:48):
affect black people. For me,it would be Dear Zachary or the Central
Part five. I can't pick one. Oh, it's tough to pick one.
I was trying to think, butgood fix. Dear Zachary is a
letter to a son about his father, Andrew Bagby. Andrew Bagby was murdered
in thousand and one and his possessivex, Shirley Turner, was immediately suspected,
(23:12):
but she moved away to Newfoundland.She reveals that she's pregnant with Andrew's
child, and so his childhood friendKurt begins making a documentary about Andrew's life
to show his son. There isa detailed episode on the documentary on What's
Up doc Podcast, which is fantasticand it's my go to for any documentary
recommendations. I've not listened to thatone. Yeah, it's a great documentary,
(23:34):
but I've not. I've not.I don't think i've heard that one.
I probably avoided The episode on thedocumentaries made me cry. Oh,
say, that's probably why I've avoidedit, because the documentary it's one of
them documentaries you watch once and thenyou think about it for the rest of
your life. I've never watched ittwice because I couldn't. I couldn't watch
again. I just felt like itwas worth going through it again to major
(23:59):
Oh don't think I could like.The documentary details the grief of Andrew's friends
and family, as well as thetoxic relationship he had which early Turner,
and the fight for justice in hisdeath. And it unfolds in real time,
so we see Andrew's parents raising theirgrandson, Zachary and surely managing to
avoid prison for way too long.It's a grippin documentary that you should go
(24:22):
into blind. So if you're goingto watch it, don't google anything,
but be warned it will break yourheart. It exposes some serious issues within
the justice system. Nothing does thatlike My next recommendation, which is the
Central Park five. I think mostpeople are familiar with this story now because
of the dramatized Netflix series When TheySee Us. But the documentary is directed
(24:47):
by Ken Burns and his daughter Sarah, and it details the nineteen eighty nine
case of a horrific assault on thejogger in Central Park. The people arrested
and ultimately imprisoned for the crime.We're a group of five teenage boys who
were vilified the media. It's sucha horror and watch to watch to see
what these boys went through and howracism and prejudice helped railroad them into a
(25:07):
false conviction. Yeah, I thinkthat's definitely a good recommendation. It's such
an eye open and documentary. Bothof them they're both so different, but
both highlights some very important issues.I think that's what's great about true crime
is that it can really it canopen your eyes to something and it sticks
(25:27):
with you. I think the typeof stories that are told in a way
that you feel compelled to spread theword about, that's what we need more
of than true crime. Oh definitely, what for sure do you think,
like, why do you think truecrime captivates so many people? It's a
good question. I think one ofthe main raisins would be because true crime
(25:53):
stories, whether it's podcast, books, TV shows, documentaries, whatever,
it involves all of the most emotionalsubject so great violent, sex, par
obsession, and death. I thinkin a way, true crime can be
quite tantalizing and it can be difficultto look away from. So for example,
when there's a crash at the sideof the road, people will always
(26:15):
slow down and try and get aglance. I think in a way,
true crime allows us to take alook into a world that hopefully none of
us will ever experience firsthand. It'sso outside the realms of our own,
say, of lives, that wecan't help but be gripped when it comes
to true grime. There's a feelingof gratification which can be intensified at the
(26:37):
end of the story. But it'san unsolved case. It kind of creates
a global game of who done it? You know, we like to feel
as though we're part of something,and especially with social media, we can
analyze the evidence, but before usbecome armchair detectives throwing around personal theories and
suspects. I agree with you.I think there is a fine line between
(26:59):
producing something entertainment and retelling the worstmoments of someone's life. I think at
the minute, we're seeing a changewithin the genre where people are becoming more
aware of the responsibility true crime creatorshave to being ethical and respecting those involved.
Like Morbidology, crime maps is verymuch victim centric, and we never
want to glorify or romanticize the issueswe cover, but we do want people
(27:22):
to know that there are so manydifferent factors that influence a criminal case and
the criminal themselves personally. I wantto remove that comfort blanket of people thinking,
oh, that is such a tragedy, but it would never happen to
me, because that's desensitizing, andI want people to feel impacted by the
grief and the struggles that are ongoingin the hopes that it will eventually bring
(27:44):
out some change the general interest andtrue crime has always been around. I
mean, how many historical cases haveyour research where the crime seam was examinated
by people who gathered to look atthe horror. Remember, yeah, that's
just going to say the one wewere speaking about on stereo the other week.
People someone left with a portion ofthe victim's skull in his pocket.
(28:07):
It's one like, but people alwaysused to go to crime scenes and you
know, look how many people studyoutside waiting for ted public execution. It's
going to say public executions as well. That was a day out for the
family back in the day. Yeah, it's always been around, and now
you can just kind of do itfrom a distance, so like most of
(28:27):
us have a need to try andat least understand how and why things happen.
I think it's a kind of selfpreservation thing, and with mainstream media
offering that insight, thankfully people aren'trapes and true crime scenes and harassing people
as much. I also we knowthat women are often the victims of ilent
crime, and we know that themajority of true crime listeners are female,
(28:51):
which I think is down to adesire to know the worst that can happen
and see it almost packaged up intolike a conclusive ending, and it feels
like you said, say, yeah, it's so far remote from your normal
life that it feels safe to watchand list like. Definitely, at times
it can be a problematic genre,and especially if speculation goes out of control.
(29:12):
And I also think it's a powerfulgenre where there can be true,
meaningful change as a result of acase getting more exposure, someone coming forward
with information or spotting signs of dangerwithin their relationship, or even in a
situation with a stranger. Yeah,definitely. I think it makes you a
lot more aware of your surroundings andeven aware of other people's surroundings. Yeah.
(29:37):
So what tips would you have foranyone who wants to start out their
own podcast? Well, first,I think the more people that listen,
the more likely you are to receivenegative feedback. Unfortunately, people are more
likely to complain than to leave apositive review. You don't you know.
I used to work as a chefand you'd rarely get people giving compliments to
(30:03):
the chef. Not because I wasback, No, nobody does that.
Nobody. Yeah, they're they're quickerto complain. So you know, if
it happens, don't let it getto you. If it isn't constructive,
then it's not worth worrying about.It takes time to find your style and
get comfortable producing. It's a lotof work, more than most people realize.
(30:25):
And I mean one episode can takebetween forty to sixty hours of actual
work at your computer, and theseries took us nine months with the two
of us who knew what podcasting takeacts. You know, and if it's
something you have a passion for andsomething you can dedicate the time to,
then go for it. My mainadvice would be to make sure your research
is as thorough as possible, andalways credit and sight where you got the
(30:48):
information from. Try to be asrespectful as possible to the victims, their
families and anyone involved. You know, you never know who's listening, and
try to be as consistent as possible, but focus on quality over want to
see. Use your platform for goodwhere you can, and don't be afraid
to reach it to other podcasters.We all started somewhere, and if I
hadn't been for Emily and many otherseason creators, I would not have been
(31:10):
able to make grind Up to mycareer a chance. That's some very solid
advice. I think the best bitof advice, on top of what you've
already said, is to not overthinkit and just do it. So for
Ages, as I mentioned at thestart, I put off creating a podcast
because I assumed that nobody would listenand that those who did listen would hate
it, either because of my voiceor because of the compent It also suggests
(31:34):
getting a few episodes written and recordedbefore publishing the first one, so that
you're not working from week to weekor fortnite to fortnite. I think people
are always surprised at how much workgoes into a podcast if it's a scripted
podcast, and being ahead before youeven begin really does make it a lot
easier. As Aileen said, youneed to be consistent with releasing episodes and
(31:56):
it can become a bit daunting ifyou're not on top of it, so
definitely get a good couple weeks aheadbefore starting, but also suggests getting on
social media and don't be afraid ofreaching out to other podcasters to ask for
advice, or to even to askthem to listen to your episodes and offer
any feedback. Remember when I started, I sent my episode to a few
(32:16):
podcasters and asked for feedback and criticism, and honestly, everyone was just so
lovely. I always played promos forother podcasts on Morbidology, especially podcasts that
are just starting out, and there'sa lot of other podcasters who do the
same. So if you do makea podcast, make sure to reach out,
send also message and we'll have yourback. My final piece of advice
(32:39):
is to make something that you're proudof. I know it sounds super cliche,
but try not to worry or getcaught up in the downloads and just
to create something that you're proud of. Thanks for listening to this special episode.
We'll be at crime Con in Londonon September twenty fifth and twenty six
If you'd like to come, Ticketsare on sale now go to crime con
(33:00):
dot co dot uk
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
The Joe Rogan Experience
The official podcast of comedian Joe Rogan.