80. RE Release: Mary Olenchuk & Pam Zimmerman

This week, Talysa moved into her new house (yayyyyy) but didn't have time to record (boooooo)

In this week's episode, we cover one of Maines oldest cold cases, the murder of Mary Olenchuk. Then we tell the story of the murder of Pamela Zimmerman. 

Find us everywhere through our Linktree: https://linktr.ee/shitshowtcp

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:04):
Hey, I'm Teresa and I am Sarah.

Speaker 2 (00:07):
Welcome to the Ship Show, a.

Speaker 1 (00:09):
Half asked true crime podcast.

Speaker 2 (00:11):
I'm making sure all of my ship's on mute. Are
you realized it wasn't?

Speaker 1 (00:14):
Oh, I should do the same mute mute. Okay. I
after you said that you panic when we start this,
I started like mentally panic. So as soon as you
started speaking, I'm like, oh, fuck, I'm next.

Speaker 2 (00:26):
No, you can't do that because we literally just said
I think in the last episode that only one of
us is panicky.

Speaker 1 (00:32):
At true you caused panic. You shifted the panic to me.

Speaker 2 (00:37):
I caused panics that I know.

Speaker 1 (00:43):
I get well, I forgot like I would just stretch
my back. So this morning, at like five o'clock in
the morning, we had the frost advisory and whatnot and
what was he saying? Oh, and then I got up
to get like let the dog out. So we had
a heater sitting out in a living room that kinda
brought up to kind of more up the house yesterday

(01:03):
or least night. I didn't see it because it's black
and our floors are super freaking dark and there's no
lights on. I smashed the fuck out of my knee
on it and like tripped over it. So then I're like,
I feel like I pulled every muscle in my back.
So now every time I sneeze, I feel like I'm dying.

Speaker 2 (01:18):
Oh no, the sneezing is the worst when anything is sore.

Speaker 1 (01:23):
Yeah, it's great. Like and then so I laid there
in bed for like an hour and I'm like, why
the fuck did I leave back down? I'm not going
back to sleep. No, and Condor kept putting his foot
right on my knee that I smashed, and I'm like, child.

Speaker 2 (01:35):
Please leave me alone.

Speaker 1 (01:37):
So that was my start to my morning. How's your
day going.

Speaker 2 (01:41):
I don't know, that's fine. I'm doing really boring mom
stuff today, like switching the kids clothes from summer to
fall stuff.

Speaker 1 (01:47):
So yeah, I need to do that.

Speaker 2 (01:50):
I really wanted to go for a run, but I'm
not going too.

Speaker 1 (01:53):
Yeah. How are they liking in school? So far?

Speaker 2 (01:57):
So good? So today is their second full day, okay,
so it's just getting used to like the new drop
off and pick up procedures. And for them in school,
you know, they have their masks on, they're keeping the
kids separated, they're doing mask breaks, you know, so not nice.
The kids at a time, can take a quick break.

(02:18):
But yeah, it's I don't know, we're doing it.

Speaker 1 (02:21):
Yeah, we are on our second day of remote learning.

Speaker 2 (02:24):
Hey sent me to schedule.

Speaker 1 (02:27):
Fucking I don't even know. I mean, it's not okay,
So it's not as bad as I like thought going
into it. But it's just a lot of sitting around
waiting to log him in to the Google meets and stuff,
and like yesterday was literally pointless. We didn't do anything
of value, and but today was a little bit better,

(02:49):
but still like it's just sitting around, like waiting to
log him in and then making him sit still in
a seat, which he's not good at because he hates
sitting in front of the computer. And I'm like, just
please set I'm busy. I want to tell your five seconds.

Speaker 2 (03:04):
No, I think probably after the first week it'll be
a little bit easier once you get into the routine
and then you know, you know what the bricks are.
And for me, like when we did the remote learning
in the spring, once my kids figured it out, like
how to log themselves in, all I had to do
is remind you know, eleven fifteen, that's in five minutes,
get your stuff together and then they could just do

(03:24):
it all themselves. But definitely, at first it's all all routine,
and even for my kids that are, you know, physically
in school, the teacher said that, you know, the first
couple of weeks, it's really going to be just learning
the right learning the routine and teaching everyone how to
keep themselves in.

Speaker 1 (03:40):
Their friends safe.

Speaker 2 (03:43):
And all of that. So right off the bat, they're not.

Speaker 1 (03:45):
Doing any anything crazy yet, which I get.

Speaker 2 (03:48):
And then after they do all of that, it's it's
all going to be like revisiting stuff from the spring
to see who absorbed what and where they start. So
it's just it's a weird, weird start to the school year.

Speaker 1 (04:03):
It is very weird. I'm like, now I'm not even
hopeful that they're going to be going back because she's
got twenty students in her class, and she said that
she's only allowed to have twelve desks in her room
because it's not big enough, so like, I don't know
how they're planning on doing that, split them up, you know, yeah,
that's type things, but oh, it's not completely terrible. I'm like,

(04:30):
and I'm glad that it's kind of a soft start,
because you know, he's not had to do anything all summer.
But it's not completely terrible. It's still I still hate it.
I would much rather him being like safe, you know,
obviously as safe as possible in school because him being
an only child, he needs that. But right, it is
what it is.

Speaker 2 (04:50):
Yeah, you'll get through it, and every time you feel
like you're not, I'll tell you.

Speaker 1 (04:53):
To suck at the fuck up.

Speaker 2 (04:56):
Up and do it. Oh yeah, it was just to
say I I said I'm a couple of minutes ago,
and I was like, god fucking damn it to Lisa,
I'm gonna have to edit that because of the last episode.
I really focused on editing out like most or all
of our arms. Yeah, I can tell you what our
sound wave looks like when we when we each say.

Speaker 1 (05:17):
Fantastic, that looks like.

Speaker 2 (05:20):
Yeah, I've been trying to do that. So I was
gonna say, so I have dick things written down here.
You told me to remind you about things.

Speaker 1 (05:31):
Oh so, I don't even remember how I saw it.
I was on Facebook. Somebody posted something about like little
miniature penises that you can put on the valve stem
on truck tires or vehicle tires. I'm like, oh my
fucking god. I'm a hilarious wife. So I'm going to
order these.

Speaker 2 (05:51):
Do they come off like yeah easily?

Speaker 1 (05:54):
I just yeah, you took the cap off his valvestam
and I twisted it on and okay, so when it
came like like came to me like I'm such a giver.

Speaker 2 (06:08):
I don't know if that really picked up on the
microphone because you laugh, but so yeah, So I got
them yesterday and like as soon as he got home,
you know, we had dinner and then I'm.

Speaker 1 (06:19):
Like, okay, I'm gonna like go take the trash out
and I have one in my hand. Well I'm always
when it does the trash like oh, like it never
does the trash, So but he freaking follows me out.
I'm like, you've never followed me out, what are you doing?
So I took the trash out and then I snuck

(06:39):
around the other side of the truck, pretending out I
was looking at the garden, and then I put it on.
But I had to put it on the front driver's
side because he could see me if I went anywhere else.
And then we were out front. He was playing with
Connor and he freaking sees it like within like yeah,
like within like thirty minutes, and I'm like, fuck, He's like,

(07:00):
that's that's totally. I was really hoping that like somebody
would work would see it first and suck with him,
but so instead he took it off and he went
and put it on one of his coworker's trucks.

Speaker 2 (07:10):
When you sent me the picture, I was like, okay,
so that's clearly a tire, and I forgot that you
told me you were doing that, So I'm like zooming
in on it, you know, because it was black and
mashed the tire, and I was like, what the fuck
is that? Like is it some sort of like hornet snasters?
I was like, why is it shaped like a penis? Oh?

Speaker 1 (07:26):
I forgot that it Like I didn't think it would
be as big as it was, so like it was
sticking out pretty far, and I'm like, so, I mean
he would have noticed it pretty quick either way. But
I thought it was hilarious And I saved the other
three and I'm going to probably put them on in
a couple of months when because it came in a pack.

Speaker 2 (07:47):
Of four, so like when he forgets about this.

Speaker 1 (07:51):
Yeah, so I'm gonna put one on a different tire.
When you forget this while yeah, oh man, so that's
my Dick's story, that Sarah's dig story.

Speaker 2 (08:03):
So while you were telling that, I was just thinking,
you know, you live in a small town. When the
town judge strives by your house on a tractor.

Speaker 1 (08:09):
That's fantastic.

Speaker 2 (08:14):
No, that's what I was looking at. I was like,
who is that?

Speaker 1 (08:17):
Oh, that's funny. Do you got anything else?

Speaker 2 (08:21):
Merch merch? No, that's all I march merch. Okay. So,
like I always say, we have super cute, awesome things on.

Speaker 1 (08:33):
The spreadshirt, all of the things, all of.

Speaker 2 (08:35):
The things anything you want, cups, hats, I forgot t shirts,
take tubs, bandanas, all of that ship literally with our
logo there's welcome to the ship show everything. The shipping
was really fast and it's super cute. So fifty percent

(08:56):
of any profits now through the end of this month
month month wordich is September. We'll go to you and
the backlog and you can find the link to that
on our link tree, which will be in our show notes,
or you can.

Speaker 1 (09:09):
Go to shop dot spreadshirt dot com, forward Slash the
Shit Show TCP because.

Speaker 2 (09:16):
If you guys think I wrote that link down in
between episode I absolutely did not.

Speaker 1 (09:22):
When you were reading, I'm like, I wonder if she
failier with that down and then you looked at me like,
oh shit, I have her here.

Speaker 2 (09:27):
No, I've had the same piece of paper that says
the same exact thing since.

Speaker 1 (09:31):
Yeah, I kind of I don't know why. I like, literally,
at the end, when I'm always telling like a ready,
where to find us and follow us and whatnot, I
still have to pick up my paper to look at it,
even though it's like super easy to remember.

Speaker 2 (09:45):
I do the same thing. But I just don't trust
my brain because I think one time I didn't. I
was just like, find us places. I don't know all
of the places.

Speaker 1 (09:53):
You can do us.

Speaker 2 (09:56):
Oh all right, so I go first, yep.

Speaker 1 (10:00):
I want to drink my resp very tea.

Speaker 2 (10:02):
Tea, all right, So I'm going to tell you about
the murder of Mary Olan Chuck. And I believe that's
how you spell her or say her name, I spell
you spell it. There's I couldn't find any like this
is from nineteen seventy nineteen seventy one, so you know,
information was kind of hard to find. I did a

(10:26):
lot of digging on newspapers dot com, which.

Speaker 1 (10:28):
There's an that you just have to, which is a.

Speaker 2 (10:33):
Great resource at I felt, Sarah. I read newspaper articles
until I felt like my eyeballs were going to bleed
every day.

Speaker 1 (10:40):
So wait, is this the one that you said that
I said I was going to be super excited about.

Speaker 2 (10:44):
I mean, no, well, shit, okay, I'm going to do
that one next week because I damn it, Lisa, I'm
gonna get that out. Okay, Am I going to be
super excited for this? No?

Speaker 1 (10:59):
No, that's the I.

Speaker 2 (11:00):
Mean, they're also so yeah, no, this one does suck. Okay,
just I guess I'll say right also at the top
that this is the murder of a child. So okay, Larry, Okay.
So Peter olin Chuck was an army general and the
commanding officer for the Army Ammunition Depot in Juliet, Illinois.

Speaker 1 (11:23):
Yep, they say, right, Jolliet, Yeah, Juliet, Jolliet.

Speaker 2 (11:25):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (11:26):
No, wait Juliet.

Speaker 2 (11:27):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (11:28):
No, I'm confused, Sarah.

Speaker 2 (11:30):
Nos, okay. He and his wife Ruth had three daughters
named Nancy, Jane, and Mary. Do you know this? No?

Speaker 1 (11:38):
I don't. I just Nancy, Jane, and Mary just sounded
very like seventies seventies.

Speaker 2 (11:45):
It made sense just taping up, and I was like,
those are adorable names, right right from the seventies. Uh
So the family had a cottage in a Gunkquit, Maine,
where they spent their summers.

Speaker 1 (11:58):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (12:00):
Yeah, a gun Quit is a small town on Mains coast.
It's about twelve miles south of kind of Bunkport. I
found a Bangor Daily News article from Oh you say, well, okay,
so that's like the southern coast of Maine.

Speaker 1 (12:14):
Okay, thank you. That does help me, actually more because
when you're naming places I've never heard of. Okay, are
they in Canada summer? I don't know.

Speaker 2 (12:21):
Where are they? I found daily a Bangor Daily News
article from nineteen seventy one by Ken Buckley, and he
said that a gun Quit was the summer playground for
the rich and middle income from the Eastern Seaboard. Just
for some context. I knew that a gun Quit was,
you know, now, in this day and age, very touristy
summer you know place, but I wasn't sure what it

(12:47):
was like back then, if it was just a small
coastal town or what. But so it sounds like it
was also pretty filter. Yeah, Okay, so the family's on
vacation and Mary the youngest daughter, so she's described as
being like a homebody. She loved to collect and trade seashells,
and she loved her dog and to go fishing. Around

(13:10):
four pm on August ninth, nineteen seventy, Mary Catherine Ollenchuck
left her mother and sister on Little Beach in a
gunquet to go back to the family summer home, which
was only a few hundred yards away. So thirteen year
old Mary changed out of her bathing suit into some
faded pink Wrangler shorts and a white T shirt. She

(13:31):
hung her bathing suit on the line, and she hopped
on her neighbor's bicycle, which I guess was a common thing.

Speaker 1 (13:39):
Okay, yeah, they shirt whatever.

Speaker 2 (13:41):
And she went into town to buy some candy and
a New York Times newspaper. The youngest daughter of General
Peter Ollenchuck and his wife Ruth never came home, so
after changing her clothes and writing off on her neighbor's bicycle,
Mary stopped at a drugstore in the village to buy
some penny candy, and then went to the nearby Norseman
motor Inn, which carried out of state papers, newspapers. Okay,

(14:06):
so she was five to three and about eighty pounds.
She was recognized by many locals, Like I said, the
family spent their summers there, right. She had shoulder length
red hair, and I read in multiple places when they
were describing her, and how some of the locals were
describing her as her shoulder hair shoulder length red hair

(14:27):
like matched her dog's hair. So they were together all
the time through town. A woman named Brenda Blake owned
the Marginal Way House right there in town. She says
that she remembers vividly waving to marry that day, and
she said that it seems like she was headed home,
So she was headed in the direction of her Codga,
so she was almost there when she was apparently stopped

(14:52):
outside of the Lookout motel. So in any of these
touristy beach towns, there's like motels right on my house hotels.
A woman on the third floor of the motel reported
seeing a redhead girl in a bicycle speaking to a
man in a maroon car that had scratches on the hud.
The woman told police that she turned away from the

(15:13):
window briefly and then she looked back and saw the
girl getting into the car. Oh so just like voluntarily
getting into the car. She said, it didn't raise any flags.
It wasn't like she was being drug into a car
or anything.

Speaker 1 (15:28):
Right.

Speaker 2 (15:29):
Mary was reported missing by her mother at seven to
fifteen pm, and her bicycle was later found at the
motel Okay So August seventh, which is two days before
her disappearance. Her father was actually down in Maryland. He
had just been put in charge of Operation Chase, which
stands for Cuttholes in syncum oshler a three year This

(15:55):
was a three year old army program to dump unwanted
materials in the sea. So he was overseeing the transport
of nerve gas from bases in the South to a
ship docked in Florida. And then this nerve agent was
in three thousand tons of like rockets entombed in concrete

(16:15):
that was to be shipped like two hundred and eighty
miles off.

Speaker 1 (16:20):
The coast to be Damagay.

Speaker 2 (16:22):
So this was obviously highly controversial, right it would still
be today. I think, I don't know if it still happens,
but I assume that people would be upset.

Speaker 1 (16:32):
I would hope not. I would hope not too. I
didn't know this was a thing.

Speaker 2 (16:35):
Did you know this was a thing?

Speaker 1 (16:37):
No, I mean I knew, like humans are garbage, but
I didn't know like we were fucking trained to kill
off the sea with nerve gas.

Speaker 2 (16:45):
We're trying to kill off everything that's.

Speaker 1 (16:47):
Human garbage basically, But.

Speaker 2 (16:50):
Put that on a T shirt.

Speaker 1 (16:52):
Humans are garbage. Take that out.

Speaker 2 (16:57):
Okay. The dumping of the chemicals was obviously high controversial.
It drew protests from politicians and environmentalists.

Speaker 1 (17:06):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (17:06):
And on August eighth, so that's the day before Mary
went missing, a radical student group told a Kentucky newspaper
that it would kidnap the families of those involved in
Operation Chase.

Speaker 1 (17:17):
Oh.

Speaker 2 (17:19):
So, because of this threat, Mary's disappearance was not made
public for two days. Police and family were waiting for
a ransom call.

Speaker 1 (17:27):
Okay.

Speaker 2 (17:28):
When the call didn't come, flyers with Mary's picture went
up throughout the county. So like essentially they didn't really
start searching for Mary for two days. I think they
kind of assumed that she was kidnapped, like the threat.

Speaker 1 (17:41):
Said, Yeah, that's he was still gonna like quietly been
looking but okay.

Speaker 2 (17:47):
And I don't know why they I guess I don't
understand even keeping it quiet unless they were planning on
actually like paying the ransom to get her back. But
it's nineteen seventy, so who.

Speaker 1 (18:01):
The fuck knows well, and when there's always politics that.

Speaker 2 (18:04):
Go into right, and US military, the FBI, state and
local police all get involved to find Mary. At this point,
their search focused on the maroon car and his driver,
who was described by the woman in the motel as
a white man, probably in his thirties and quote not
a hippie, So I think in that time.

Speaker 1 (18:27):
Right, it was.

Speaker 2 (18:29):
I don't know, everybody looks like hippies, probably well some
most I told.

Speaker 1 (18:36):
My daddy looks like a hippie. The other day, I
tell my neighbor Timmy looks like a hippie all the time.

Speaker 2 (18:41):
Because he does. Family members told police that Mary was
shy and not exceedingly trusting. So her father said Mary
wouldn't have talked to the man or gotten into his
car unless she quote had confidence in the individual or
knew him.

Speaker 1 (18:55):
I didn't say like, she seemed like, from what you said,
like a smart girl, like she was young, but she
still seemed like smart, right, And there's.

Speaker 2 (19:03):
Something else along with this quote, He said that like
they had been told not to talk to strangers and
not to get, you know, into vehicles, which I think
is ahead of his time as far as parenting goes
for nineteen seventy. But being in the military, I think, my,
I don't know if.

Speaker 1 (19:19):
You see some shit when you're in there at same
especially this is.

Speaker 2 (19:22):
This is peak hitchhiking time.

Speaker 1 (19:24):
Yeah, right, don't do it ever, right.

Speaker 2 (19:27):
Don't hitchhike. I feel like you don't have to say that.

Speaker 1 (19:29):
I mean you would think that, but people still do it.

Speaker 2 (19:32):
Yeah, all right. So police and family members believe that
Mary must have known this man, and so then I'm thinking, like,
did she meet an older teenager or something at the
beach or whatever was kind of when they say this,
I'm like, well, maybe it's someone.

Speaker 1 (19:46):
That Yeah, maybe she planned to meet them up later, yeah.

Speaker 2 (19:51):
Or maybe not that she planned to meet up with them,
just that they saw her pulled in said hey.

Speaker 1 (19:55):
Mary, you know whatever, Yeah, Okay.

Speaker 2 (19:58):
So by August fifteenth, more than one thousand posters with
Mary smiling face had been distributed from the Canadian border
all the way down the coast through Delaware. There were
several search parties that had thirty to thirty five volunteers,
aided by police and fire departments, that searched all around
the Agunquitt area. They canvassed house to house with photos

(20:21):
of Mary, and two military helicopters were called in to
look over wooded areas and fields and stuff. Thirteen days
after her disappearance, on August twenty second, nineteen seventy, a
part time police officer found Mary's body in a barn
and kind of bunk. It was beneath a mess of
unbuilt hay on the barn floor. So this barn is

(20:42):
about eight miles from where Mary got into that car. Okay,
and I had in two separate news articles. I had
one where the Agunquit police chief said that he felt
that someone had to have had previous knowledge of the
barn to find it. But then kind of bunks. Police
chief made up comment that said, like everybody knew about it,
so it doesn't help narrow down the search, Like everybody

(21:04):
knew knew that people went and hung out. There was
this barn's on a big estate. I guess, so, okay,
they had people in the area that would camp there.
There's some sort of body of water where fishermen would
park their car on the road and go fishing, you know,
So that two police chiefs were like one was like, well,

(21:26):
it's someone who freak you know who already knew about it,
and then the other ones like everybody knew about it,
so it's not helpful.

Speaker 1 (21:32):
Which kind of kind of are saying the same thing,
just so in different ways? Yeah, I guess, but.

Speaker 2 (21:38):
Yeah, okay. So according to that article that I mentioned
earlier by Ken Buckley, a man named Peter Gunn, who
was a caretaker at the estate, said police had previously
searched the barn okay after her disappearance, So it's something
they had already looked at but didn't find anything.

Speaker 1 (21:53):
Well, if he found her under the hay, if they
didn't actually like move the hay, yeah, right, of course.
If I walked into a barn looking for something, I
don't know that I would think to move a pile
of pay.

Speaker 2 (22:02):
I mean maybe, So it doesn't sound like the first
search was very thorough then, right, Okay. So, sixteen year
old Bob Walsh, who was a part time lifeguarden ken
of Bunk, was among those who volunteered to put up
posters in search for Mary. Walsh's family owned the Idle
motel in ken of Bunk, and he said he knew

(22:22):
nothing about the actual case, just that there was a
girl missing. On the night Mary disappeared, Walsh and his
friends were drinking a few beers and fishing in the
mouse Um River maybe in Kennebunk. After midnight, it began
to rain, so the boys walked back to their hangout
in old Barn in a field on the Parsons estate.

Speaker 1 (22:43):
The barn like hanging out in the barn.

Speaker 2 (22:50):
Heard around one thirty in the morning, as they approached
the barn, the boys said that they heard some rustling
in the woods nearby, but they thought that it was
just a deer, and they went into the barn, dropped
their fishing poles and any other stuff that they had,
and then they walked a few hundred yards back to
the motel that his family owned. They got to the
motel and the boys jumped in the pool, and a
few minutes later they heard a car start, and this

(23:12):
was around two o'clock in the morning, Walsh said quote.
The car pulled slowly up the intersection near the motel
and stopped. Its lights were on and the engine was idling.
When Mary's body was found in that barn. Thirteen days later,
Walsh told the story to the Kennebunk to Kennebunk's police chief,
Frank Stevens. He also told Stevens that he'd been in
the barn a half a dozen times since that night,

(23:34):
and he did say once he smelled something that made
him sick to his stomach.

Speaker 1 (23:38):
But okay.

Speaker 2 (23:39):
Stevens told Walsh to write down everything that he could
remember about his activities between August ninth and August twenty second.
He also told him that a bible from the motel
that his family owned was found in the barn, and
Walsh said that he knew that the Bible was in
there and that it had been in there for about
a year, which random, But it was random, but I

(24:00):
don't so. When words spread that Walsh spent time in
the barn and that a bible from his family's motel
was recovered near the body, people in the town obviously
began to talk. He was apparently never seriously considered a suspect.
He didn't have a car driver's license, and he easily
passed a light detector test. He became like the town pariah.

Speaker 1 (24:19):
They sucks, Yeah, it goes suck.

Speaker 2 (24:22):
The school year before, he was elected president of his
class at the Kennebunk High School. So, but when school
started in September, everything was much different for him. Walsh
was dumped by his girlfriend, his classmates kept their distance,
and he was nicknamed killer Bob.

Speaker 1 (24:36):
Jesus fuck yeah right. Kids are awful.

Speaker 2 (24:39):
Kids are awful. But it's probably also their families talking
about it same.

Speaker 1 (24:43):
Oh for sure. Everybody's repeating like children repeat their parents
like it's not sure that okay.

Speaker 2 (24:50):
A week after Mary's body was discovered, one of the
girl's aunts contacted a psychic named Shirley Harrison, the mother
of She was a mother of six from West bucks In.
Harrison had consulted on several high profile murder investigations and
even once predicted the location and occupation of one of
the Boston stranglers next victims, which I didn't really look

(25:12):
into that aspect of her in general or On August fifteenth,
Harrison told police that they should check an unpainted building
on an old estate in the kind of Bunk area,
which is where the barn was, and police said that
they didn't check the barn because of that, they checked it.
I read one of the police officers daughters was near
the barn and said something smelled bad. I also read

(25:34):
the caretakers on the property contacted police and told them, okay,
recheck it. But depends on which super old newspaper read right.
So an autopsy revealed that Mary had been strangled, but
that she had not been sexually assaulted. They did say that,
you know, she was decomposing, so it was hard to

(25:54):
do a full autopsy on that. But her clothes were intact, okay,
so that leans that way. And I also ran in
one place that they did find some skin and hair
under her nails. Investigators immediately step up their search for
the maroon car, and they conduct hundreds of interviews, but
months passed without any fresh clues or strong suspects. Some

(26:15):
thought that Mary's killer was a young person, someone she
knew from the beach. Others thought he was older, maybe
a family of acquaintance or a local fisherman. One suspect
was questioned and cleared, but then two months later he
completed suicide. Another theory was that Mary's murder was connected
to other murders from the year before in neighboring states.

(26:37):
So there's one girl insuse that's named Constance Corcione, I
think is how we just decided we were going to
pronounce that and then Denise Marquote in New Hampshire. Both
of these cases were girls that were close to Mary's age,
and neither had signs of sexual assault. But the other

(26:57):
two had been bludgeoned to death, and like I just said,
Mary was strangled. So that was a big difference, not
to say they they can't change, right, you know, if
he has Mary in the barn and there's a rope there,
I don't know, but it could be. It could be related,
it could not be related. Just that was one of
the major differences. Yeah, and I believe the other two

(27:19):
girls were taken in broad daylight, just like Mary.

Speaker 1 (27:22):
Was so so crazy because like you said, back then,
everybody hitchhigs, so like if somebody is getting into a
random vehicle, it didn't seem weird, right, and it's weird.
People don't do it. Don't do it, Okay.

Speaker 2 (27:34):
So there was another case from Canada that I saw
that had been looked at as a possible connection. I
think the Canadian Royal Mounted Police contacted a Gunquitz police department,
but that girl had been sexually assaulted, so they didn't
think that it was related.

Speaker 1 (27:51):
Yeah, was that one after hers or before?

Speaker 2 (27:56):
I don't know if that one was before or after.
The two the Massachusett in New Hampshire one were before
and then there was Mary's and then after obviously after
Mary's death can contact them. I don't know if it
happened before right after.

Speaker 1 (28:12):
I was just curious because if it happened after, maybe
the emma was changing they were arresting versus it happened before.
Most likely not related.

Speaker 2 (28:21):
Right, I mean seriously, because I.

Speaker 1 (28:23):
Am forensic scited who determines that I can't even think
of the person?

Speaker 2 (28:29):
Okay, doctor read from Criminal Minds.

Speaker 1 (28:31):
There you go, I'm that person, Just kidding.

Speaker 2 (28:34):
A year after Mary's body was found, a fire destroyed
the barn. The cause of the fire was never determined,
but the owner maintained that it was suspicious. So in
another problem with finding who killed Mary was the huge
influx of taurusts to the area.

Speaker 1 (28:50):
Right, and then yeah, because they come and go.

Speaker 2 (28:53):
Yeah, you come up for the weekend, leave, you know,
leave the back.

Speaker 1 (28:56):
Then the surveillances pretty much nothing, right, So yeah, somebody
could be there literally for a week and nobody would
know that they were there.

Speaker 2 (29:07):
Right. In nineteen eighty, the Boston Globe put out an
article that said police had a confirmed suspect, but that
they hadn't questioned them because they didn't have enough evidence
to convict them. And I'm like, so you can't.

Speaker 1 (29:22):
You know that's why you questioned them. I don't. I'm
not going to tell you. Do your job, but I
think that's why you're supposed to question them.

Speaker 2 (29:29):
To try to get some kind of confession or whatever.
I don't know. I don't know if there was more
to it, if they were just putting that out hoping
that whoever actually did it would want to take credit
for it or.

Speaker 1 (29:39):
Something, send it a floppy desk or something.

Speaker 2 (29:42):
Yeah, totally can't track those, not at all. The OLIN
checks were always very private. They spoke to the media
only once after Mary disappeared and never after her body
was found. And I read in one place someone and
this is like just speculation, like could they have known
more about what happened because of his job and then

(30:03):
they didn't need to keep the attention on it to
solve it publicly? Maybe, you know, due to the threats
mentioned earlier, if right.

Speaker 1 (30:12):
And then maybe the military took care of it.

Speaker 2 (30:17):
Yeah, and that would be why they or maybe they're
just really private and they don't want to relive it,
you know right.

Speaker 1 (30:22):
I mean, I don't blame somebody for not wanting to
constantly talk about their child being murdered to the news,
like mind your own people, well on my kid's coming down.

Speaker 2 (30:34):
It has now been a little over fifty years since
Mary's disappearance and murder. Bro Yeah, thank you for twenty twenty.
And her murder obviously was never solved. Her mother passed
away in nineteen ninety eight and her father passed away
in two thousand. This is one of Main's oldest cold cases.

(30:55):
I think there are two that are still unsolved that
are a few years older than her case. But and
I know that this is like probably never going to
be selfd but you never know if you have any information,
if you have you know, maybe a family member who
is old. If I know, if you have a family

(31:16):
member who used to vacation in a gunquit every summer
in the sixties and seventies, Yeah, you know, maybe they
know something, maybe they saw something ill, because.

Speaker 1 (31:25):
You never know, like like when you're in the moment,
you don't think, like what I'm saying is something that
I need to remember. But like then, looking back, I
could now, knowing more about the case, they might be like,
oh okay, that does make sense when I saw that,
and this could probably help.

Speaker 2 (31:42):
So you know, no, and I think only one of
Mary's sisters is still alive. Oh wow, so you could
give closure to one person family. Yeah, you can contact
the main State Police at one eight hundred to eight
zero eight five seven. I have a.

Speaker 1 (32:01):
Bajillion sources, okay.

Speaker 2 (32:04):
In this case the Boston Globe article by James Stack
bangor Daily News. Ken Buckley actually did several articles. I
think it seems like he followed the case. I use
Globalsecurity dot org, Insider dot com had an article by
Talia leccrits, and Maine dot gov their Unsolved Homicides page

(32:28):
had information that's actually where I started from.

Speaker 1 (32:31):
That was, you know what, I'm an idiot because I
know that you literally said something about being unsolved before.
But then as soon as you started freaking telling me
the case out my head. But I'm like, and then
once you got getting closer to the end, and I'm like, okay,
that's kay, I did it. Come on, let's let you
know yeah.

Speaker 2 (32:50):
I don't know the Ben Walsh thing. That's the kid, right, Yeah,
I feel bad if he didn't do it and he
was named killer Bob for his whole life. But also
like I I think taking the light detective results like
that should be yeah kind I don't know you could
pass those. Yeah, but back then they were using them,
you know, I think with more yeah, put more weight

(33:13):
in yeah. Yeah. So I don't know. I don't know.
I think that's.

Speaker 1 (33:18):
Who I was leaning towards, and then I might No,
I feel kind of shitty because like there's no facts
that he did it.

Speaker 2 (33:25):
Buts and if he doesn't have a car, you know,
someone would say, yeah, Ben borrowed my maroon car.

Speaker 1 (33:32):
Right. Also, I don't know, I just feel like a
maroon car with scratches on the hood. Of course not
when it's a tourist area, like no, maybe it's not
that easy to find, but come on, yeah, interesting case.
Are you ready for mine?

Speaker 2 (33:48):
No, I want to go back to that ef.

Speaker 1 (33:50):
I just I was trying to curry eat earlier and
I put the inside of my cheek and it was
fine up until I have to actually start talking, and
I was like, I keep catching it again in arts.
So I'm gonna start her through all of my words. Now,
Sarah's excuse.

Speaker 2 (34:05):
For nothing they wor this week, ladies and gentlemen.

Speaker 1 (34:08):
I'm right, at least it's a true excuse. Oh, I
am going to tell you about Pamela and Zimmerman. I
feel like me I've oiced just something. It's super weird
right there. I don't know what just happened.

Speaker 2 (34:21):
You say, Simmerman or Zimmerman.

Speaker 1 (34:24):
Zimmerman with a Z as in zebra zebra. So pam
was one of six kids born on February eighteenth, nineteen
sixty one, in Decatur, Illinois. Oh, we know. My opinion on.

Speaker 2 (34:45):
That was weak before I was like, is she going
to skip over the six kids without saying that it's
too many fucking kids?

Speaker 1 (34:50):
And it's too many fucking kids? You good for you? Though?

Speaker 2 (34:54):
You too good for you?

Speaker 1 (34:55):
Do you do your broken body from birthing six children?
But then I always died from one, so I can't
imagine sex three. So she graduated from high school. I
was the name of the high school. But I just
realized I'm not going to try to say it's so important. Damn, Marolla,

(35:17):
force there you go for m a r o A
marollak f O r s y t h oh. Yeah,
in high school that she didn't name the high school

(35:38):
that she didn't know.

Speaker 2 (35:39):
Why would anybody, Oh, you.

Speaker 1 (35:40):
Should write it? She I'm like, well she didn't, but okay,
So anyway, so she graduated high school in nineteenth seventy nine,
can't read numbers, and was the senior class president and
valve victorian during that I don't know. Anyways, she yeah,

(36:01):
her family said she was super smart, like she always
strived to have straight a's all that kind of stuff.
Stuff I did not do, Pam. I strive to pass
and that's about it. And here I am a successful podcaster.

(36:21):
So successful, oh are we not? Pam went to Eastern
Illinois University and graduated with a double major in accounting
and business management. So, like I said, I feel like
she was super smart because all the money shit confuses me.

(36:42):
And it's probably because I didn't strive to be better
in school.

Speaker 2 (36:45):
You have to take a financial accounting class for the
business management thing.

Speaker 1 (36:50):
That sounds disgusting to me.

Speaker 2 (36:51):
And that's when I decided that I wasn't going to
do that semester.

Speaker 1 (36:56):
Literally, like I don't, I just I don't think I
could ever. I would just see a bunch of numbers
and be like, yeah, I'm I failed already think you
could buy. So Pam was a certified public accountant and
a certified financial planner. I didn't realize you had to
be certified to do all of that. But it makes sense.

(37:17):
I guess you're handing you know, the financial planner part.

Speaker 2 (37:23):
Oh, I mean I would assume you.

Speaker 1 (37:25):
I mean, I guess it does make sense. I just
never thought about it, apparently, and like, I mean, yeah.

Speaker 2 (37:31):
Sure, I would hope the guy that we give money
to put in like the stock market, has some sort.

Speaker 1 (37:36):
Of true I mean, you don't want him to have
like a five second online class saying this is what
you sitting front of this computer, just like they do
at McDonald's, and they're gonna take you the steps and
then you're gonna handle people's money. It's fine, totally fine.
So she owned and operated her own office. It was

(37:59):
called Old Pamela S. Zimmerman, TPA, CFP abbreviations for those
certificates that she had certations. Those abbreviations mean you're wicked smart, right,
I admire you deeply because I'm not so Pam was
kind and caring, and her three children were the center

(38:20):
of her world. She was involved in her church and
often volunteered. She was said to be a pillar of
her neighborhood.

Speaker 2 (38:29):
But I think you just said and I was like,
I'm gonna have to take that out, said them again,
like ten seconds later, leave it.

Speaker 1 (38:37):
All of my alms are meant to be there. White
people love me. Okay, No, I can't not do it,
do it, Lisa, fuck? Okay words other than the one

(38:57):
I'm not supposed to say. She was just all around
great person, loved and respect respected by all. I can't
not like, I literally just write like I can't not
say it. You're just gonna have to leave all my
homes then, so I said. She was the proud mom

(39:17):
of three kids. She had a son named David and
twin girls named Heidi and Rachel. Okay, So, like I said,
her kids were the center of her world and she
just would do anything for them. In twenty fourteen, Pam
seemed like she had it all. She was a successful businesswoman,
and after two years of divorce, she finally met somebody new.

(39:41):
Pam was engaged to Scott Baldwin after just three months
of dating, so kind of quick, Like I said, she
was a very busy business woman. So she when she
hadn't come home the night of November third, two thousand fourteen,
her kids weren't overly worried. Her son David had left

(40:05):
the lights on for like he usually did and went
to bed, but when he woke up the next morning,
the lights were still on and Pam haddn't arrived home.
I scrolled too far. So now obviously her kids are
a little bit like a little worried, like she.

Speaker 2 (40:23):
You just like, did you say how old the kids
were at this point?

Speaker 1 (40:27):
So the sun was seventeen. I believe the daughters were
fifteen at this point, so you know there was Yeah,
so they were all like teenagers and fine to be
home alone, right, Okay, Like I said, they were a
little bit worried. Now. They had been trying to call
in text, but there were no answers. One of her

(40:47):
daughters even used her find my iPhone app to track
her cell phone but found that it was in like
a weird location. It wasn't at her office the night before,
so that the night before, Yeah, they woke up the
next morning her So her daughter just kind of like
told herself she probably went to a clan's house. That's

(41:09):
probably why she's in a weird location, and like, you know,
trying to like rationalize, rationalize, right, So they had convinced
themselves that there was nothing to worry about and that
she would be home when they arrived home from school.
While they were searching for Pam that morning, So is

(41:30):
someone else? Scott, her fiance, had called the neighbor down
the street, Julie Coe. He called her home phone. I
don't even know some people like who listened a home.

Speaker 2 (41:42):
Phone as a landline.

Speaker 1 (41:44):
A landline.

Speaker 2 (41:45):
Yeah, I get a land line for my kids when
they're teenagers. I'm gonna put right in the dining room.
We're gonna put a chair there. That's where you sit
to talk to your friends.

Speaker 1 (41:53):
Only if it's one with like the long curly cord. Yeah,
so like it's long enough for them to like walk
her girls around the table.

Speaker 2 (42:00):
And yeah, we have an old rotary phone that we
found with the original houses on his property. It still works,
So yeah, I'm planning on utilizing that someday.

Speaker 1 (42:10):
Called the landlane. Scott told her that he couldn't get
ahold of Pam and that he was worried. So Julie
went to Pam's house and the kids told her that
they couldn't get a hold of their momm either. She
told the kids to go ahead to school, and you know,
she tried to ease their worries. She didn't want them
to like panic because nobody knew what was going on yet, right,

(42:32):
But Heidi, which is one of the daughters, couldn't shake
the feeling that something was wrong. So Julie, after leaving
the you know, sending the kids off to school, she
went home changed and decided to go to Pam's office
to see if she was there. When she parked, she
saw that Pam's car was still in the parking lot,
so she called her husband to tell him what was

(42:54):
going on, and he told her to call nine one one.
The nine one on operator asked if she would like
to file a missing person's report, but she was like,
I don't know if Pam's missing or not, Like she
never came home and this is just a really weird situation.
But then Julie saw someone.

Speaker 2 (43:14):
She's definitely missing now right right.

Speaker 1 (43:17):
Well, and they were trying to like rationalize it, like
maybe she worked late and fell asleep in her office.

Speaker 2 (43:21):
Well yeah, and I guess like making a missing person's
report makes it way more real too, right, instead of saying,
like I can I can still look at this avenue
in this avenue before its real.

Speaker 1 (43:32):
Yeah, So you know, they were trying to like rationalize it,
like thinking, well, maybe she just worked late, which she
did some on occasion, and maybe she fell asleep in
the office and forgot to like didn't cut't answer anybody
because she's sleeping or whatever. While in the parking lot
still Julie saw someone else. It was Pam's longtime friend
and office manager Anas. Julie told Ana that Pam hadn't

(43:55):
come home the night before and wasn't answering calls. Aina
told Julie that Pam seemed fine when Aina had left
the office the day before that Pam was going to
meet with one more client before going home. I know
had keys the office obviously since she was an office manager,
So the pair decided to go in and look to
see if Pam was there. When they went in, they

(44:16):
noticed that the blinds that were always left open and
the reception area were closed. So I guess they always
you know, in the reception area in the front of
the building. They always left those blinds open and the
lights on, but they were closed and the lights were off. Okay,
so I I reached over and turned on the lights,
and this is when they discovered Pam laying in the

(44:37):
beetal position on the floor.

Speaker 2 (44:39):
Ah.

Speaker 1 (44:40):
Yeah. So Julie, who was a nurse, quickly ran to
her aid and you know, tried to check her boles,
but she couldn't find one. The police arrived within minutes.
So this part like it's super shitty. There was a
dateline episode on this. I listened to it. I didn't
watch because easier to listen, so that her kids were

(45:05):
on it and they were talking about how they were notified.
So the police went to the children's high school and
told them that they had found their mother dead. But
instead of like bringing them all into a conference room together,
they brought them in one at a time and told them.

(45:25):
So David got in there first, he was told first.
Then one of the twins came in, saw David's face
from you know, stayed with tears, told her. Then like
thirty minutes later, they brought in the last sister and
told her.

Speaker 2 (45:40):
So, like, I wonder what the reasoning would be for
that right, like to get individual reactions or.

Speaker 1 (45:46):
I mean maybe, but still, like what the fuck these
poor children like just lost their mom and have no
fucking clue what's going on, and like instead of letting
them be there to support each other, like you're just
gonna like and the fact that the two do you know,
the sibling that heard first had to hear it over
and over.

Speaker 2 (46:08):
They kept the other siblings in the room while they
told you. That's strange, right, Like, no fucking lesson or
test is more important than something like that. Yeah, I
was thinking that maybe they were bringing them in and
telling them at a time and then but they were

(46:29):
telling them alone, not that the other kids were in there.

Speaker 1 (46:32):
So I can't. I should have wrote down which daughter
it was, because, like I said, they're twins, excuse me.
And she one of the twins, said that she had
walked in and saw David's face stained with tears and
then the news was broke to her, and I think
it was Heidie that was in there first, and then

(46:53):
they said thirty minutes later they brought Rachel in and
did the same thing. Let me make sure I just
didn't mix up that name. No, okay, I didn't. I'm good.
So yeah. So then one of the daughters said that
they then like took them in for questioning, so which
I understand, like they have to, but like they're babies still,

(47:16):
like they're.

Speaker 2 (47:16):
Kids, but they might know something, not necessarily I might
know something. But right, well they go home to I'm sorry,
was she married?

Speaker 1 (47:27):
She was divorced?

Speaker 2 (47:28):
So for they you know, I don't know, right before
they leave the school or before they go home to
see anybody else, maybe that, Yeah, those.

Speaker 1 (47:38):
Interviews are important, yeah, which I get, but my heart
hurts for.

Speaker 2 (47:43):
Yeah, it sucks. It's absolutely a shitty situation.

Speaker 1 (47:46):
Yeah. So Pam had been shot four times, twice in
the chest, once in the temple and once in the back.
Oh my god, she was executed like there's no doubt
that whoever did this one to make sure that she
was gone, right, Holy shit. So the phone cords had

(48:08):
been cut and the office phone was missing. So I
guess they had like a cord list's office phone and
it was missing. This was according to Aina. The calendar
that Aina cup Pam's appointments on was also missing. Pam's
purse was there, it was opened, but her cell phone

(48:28):
and wallet were missing, but the case her her cell
phone was laying on the floor.

Speaker 2 (48:32):
That's good.

Speaker 1 (48:34):
Yeah, so there were no signs of fourth century Pam.
I just messed up chords again. And then Pam's cell
phone turned up where her daughter had tracked it to.
It was just dumped on the side of the road,
and her wallet was found close by. So basically they
were thinking it looked like a stage robbery. But her
credit cards were still in her wallet, so somebody took

(48:55):
those items from the office, but they dumped them and
didn't like take the cards or anything.

Speaker 2 (49:02):
Was there cash in the wallet because honestly, if I'm
stealing someone's wallet, I'm not using those credit cards that
I didn't get caught.

Speaker 1 (49:08):
I didn't read anything that said that. It just said,
you know, I mean, I agree if I mean, it
does make more sense to use the cash versus the
cards because cards are very easily trapped, right, But I
didn't see anything that said anything about money, So I
just saw about the credit cards.

Speaker 2 (49:30):
So they just think, now it's a stage robbery, right,
so it's not a random thing.

Speaker 1 (49:36):
Please started looking into the men around Pam, which was
the last client that she was seeing that day. The
fiance and the ex husband. Obviously, David Pam's son said
that they didn't really know Scott the fiance very well.
He said that they had only met him three times,
one of them being at the party that they threw

(49:57):
to celebrate their engagement just a few days before. That
seems super weird to me because you're engaged with somebody
and your children have only met them three times. But
so they're engaged.

Speaker 2 (50:06):
Living together, right, and the teenage kids head not really right,
really met him, met him or had a relationship, you know, right,
I met any kind Yeah? Based interesting.

Speaker 1 (50:22):
Yeah, So Scott the fiance, who lived a few hours
away in near Chicago, didn't drive down to Bloomington, Illinois.
I don't remember if I said that this is an Illinois.
I'm pretty sure I did, but you.

Speaker 2 (50:33):
Did, so I just thought you forgot where you were
for reson.

Speaker 1 (50:36):
No, Well, because I'm like, I think I said this
is Illinois, but I'm gonna go and say it again
just in case. So, like I said, Scott lived a
few hours away in near Chicago, and he didn't drive
down to Bloomington, Illinois when he heard the news, So
that obviously raised some red flags for the kids. Pants
kids didn't trust Scott. I'll tell you why in a minute,

(51:00):
because I don't know why I put that right there,
didn't well that yeah, right? That tools What does he
have to gain because they're not married, so it's not
like right, yeah he went, and I think financially.

Speaker 2 (51:14):
This is another insurance scheme.

Speaker 1 (51:16):
It is not. I didn't do one of those this week.
So police also had questions for Scott, obviously, so the
day after Pam was found, they asked him to come
down to Bloomington and for questioning. Scott told them that
he had been home alone the night Pam was murdered.

(51:39):
While looking into Scott's background, they found that he was
still involved with not one, but two other women. That yeah,
so dude was of age but still seeing two other women.
Fucking gross. After Pam's death, Scott had dinner with Ham's kids.

(52:01):
So this is why, like they didn't they don't trust him.
He told them that he had nothing to do with
her does and that he needed to move on, you know.
And I'm pretty sure this was only like a week
or two after she had died. That he so he.

Speaker 2 (52:17):
Was like, here's dinner, So sorry about your mom.

Speaker 1 (52:22):
Lose my number, right, maybe though they had never had
it in the first.

Speaker 2 (52:26):
Time, but like just you know, my nem like forget
I ever existed. And then he like fades into the
background of the restaurant and disappears.

Speaker 1 (52:36):
Dude sounds suspicious, randomly saying that he had nothing to
do with it and that he's just you know, two
weeks after his fiancee died and moved on, like of
course he was cheating on her. So I guess it's
not too like surprising, right, But the seasy bitch's story
checked out. This one's sleazy mine from last week was skeezy,

(53:00):
I said skeazy.

Speaker 2 (53:01):
Oh I think said szy.

Speaker 1 (53:03):
Police cleared him. So police also looked into the last
client Pam had met with that day, and that was
Eldon Whitlow.

Speaker 2 (53:17):
Sorry, how did they.

Speaker 1 (53:19):
Didn't I say, did I skip a line? He said
he was home alone that night.

Speaker 2 (53:25):
How does that?

Speaker 1 (53:26):
But I guess his phone records and everything put him
so he left his phone out right, I don't know.
There wasn't a ton on why they cleared him, just
that he was cleared, Okay, So.

Speaker 2 (53:38):
I don't like it, say.

Speaker 1 (53:40):
We I mean, I agree? So so like I said,
the last uh client that Pam had met with was
eld Eldon Whitlow, and Eldon told Plice that the appointment
was uneventful and that he left around four fifty five forty.
He also said that he had dinner with his girlfriend

(54:03):
that night, and he seemed, you know, cooperative. But one
of the things that set out to police was that
Eldon owned a nine millimeter gun and that's what Pam
was shot with, so they got a warrant for the gun.
He turned it over to be tested, but the gun
came back clean and his alibi checked out okay, although
it also came out that after he had dinner with

(54:23):
his girlfriend, he went up and met with another woman.
So we got another fucking skeezy bit.

Speaker 2 (54:29):
Cheers, guys, come on, yeah, so please now moved on to.

Speaker 1 (54:38):
Kirk Zimmerman, the ex husband. You know, why was he
last on the list?

Speaker 2 (54:43):
I don't know, should have been ex husband Kurt fiance,
last client of the day or start with the last
client of the days? Wait? I mean, like, how are things?
How was she acting before? Maybe tackle all three of
them at the same time. Give more officers on it.

Speaker 1 (55:01):
Do what Lisa says. So so if some of family,
I'm sorry. Some of Pam's family said that she feared
Kirk and that their divorce was rough on her, but
their kids thought that divorce was pretty drama free, So.

Speaker 2 (55:21):
Well, it sounds like they were good parents. Then the
drama in it and the kids didn't know, then good.

Speaker 1 (55:26):
They well and some of so it was only it
seems like it was only Pam's family that said that
the divorce is rough, like the kids and their friends
all said that the divorce seemed pretty amicable. So that's
one of those one where you get to choose which
path you want to follow.

Speaker 2 (55:43):
I'm choosing the path where she hid any of the
drama from her.

Speaker 1 (55:46):
Kids, like any rite any good parent would do.

Speaker 2 (55:49):
Yeah, we do. Your kids do not need to know
any of the details from your divorce.

Speaker 1 (55:53):
Exactly agreed. So, but Kirk was questioned and he did
so without a lawyer, so yeah, that going for him.
Kirk said he wanted to stay married at least until
the kids were in college, but other than that they
had just kind of growne apart. He's like, yeah, we
needed to get divorced, but I was hoping that we
could have so, like I was saying, he thought, you know,

(56:16):
they should have stayed married until the kids were in college,
just to spare them. I guess the divorce while they
were still in school. I don't know.

Speaker 2 (56:25):
People, I hear people. Yeah, do that please.

Speaker 1 (56:28):
He was at home reading that night and he must
have dozed off. He was also willing to give DNA
and fingerprints, as well as do a GSR test, so
guns residue test.

Speaker 2 (56:40):
How many days after the murder was that?

Speaker 1 (56:42):
Because I don't know, I'm not sure.

Speaker 2 (56:45):
So yeah, he's like, yeah, I've showered five times since then.
Of course you can.

Speaker 1 (56:49):
Check me for a gunshower, right, So he also hit
it over his phone, laptop and passwords okay, and then
please got search warrants for his in his home. They
stayed in his home searching for six days good, which
I feel like is an excessive amount of time, but yeah,

(57:12):
Borough search. So he had to stay in a hotel
during that time. Obviously. Kirk also had a girlfriend of
over a year during this time. Her name was Kate,
and she said that she had plans with Kirk that
night and she arrived earlier around six point thirty, but
when she knocked there was no answer. Police then started

(57:34):
looking into Kirk's background. You know, following the money. Excuse me, doors,
there's always usually about issues with money. Money's always the
motive anyways, So Kirk was I'm just going through my
own monologue in my head at the same time. So

(57:55):
Kirk was reportedly what okay? I Quirk was reportedly that
Pam I left her word out okay. He reportedly was
upset that Pam got the house and the divorce and
that she was still rasiving money from him, And just
a few days before Pam had died, she sent a

(58:17):
letter to Kirk through FedEx requesting almost four thousand dollars
in child support and I guess only gave him five
days to pay it or she was going to take
him back to court.

Speaker 2 (58:29):
So okay.

Speaker 1 (58:31):
Yeah, one article I read said that it was back
child support, so okay. So the kids had been living
with their dad since their mother was murdered. They believed
he was completely innocent and had nothing to do with
Pam's death. They believed he Oh, what what is wrong
with me?

Speaker 2 (58:50):
I don't know.

Speaker 1 (58:52):
They believed he was innocent? Did I tell you that? Okay?

Speaker 2 (58:55):
How innocent? Did they believe he was completely So you're
telling me that they believe that he did not do it.

Speaker 1 (59:01):
Yes, that's exactly what I'm telling you. I'm glad you
grasped that.

Speaker 2 (59:06):
Okay, I can move I have a hold of the concept.
We may move on. Okay.

Speaker 1 (59:12):
Did I tell you they thought he's a mincent Jesus Christy.

Speaker 2 (59:16):
Okay.

Speaker 1 (59:17):
So the kids thought that it had something to do
with Pam's business dealings more so than her personal life.
You know, being an accountant and financial person, you can probably
piss people off sometimes. Just eight months after Pam's death,
Kirk was arrested. The kids found out when they woke

(59:39):
up to a knock at the door and a detective
told them that their father had been arrested for their
mother's murder. Since the twins were still miners at the time,
they were taken into DCFS, so the Department of Family
or Childhood Family Services. They were then made to live
with Pam's siblings. I think it was there in their

(01:00:00):
mother's house. Yeah, no, gross, So they had to do
that in like their mother's house, which I don't know.
I know she didn't die there, but like, it just
seems weird, right. So now, usually, you know, living with family,
it usually isn't a big deal. But all of Pam's

(01:00:22):
family believed that Kirk murdered Pam and his kids didn't,
so they were like often clashing over this. So, you know,
the girls were very which is very.

Speaker 2 (01:00:32):
Shitty for their whole family because those kids have enough
that they need to process, right, and then adding your
opinion onto it, you know, right, it just seems like
I didn't remember. I was like in the middle of.

Speaker 1 (01:00:47):
I know, I'm so sorry. Oh you're saying it's shitty that.

Speaker 2 (01:00:53):
So this just shitty for the family because those kids
already have so much that they have to go through
and process, and then you're adding your opinion onto it,
which I mean, yeah, you can think that your sister's
ex husband murdered her, but you don't have any proof
and just because the police arrest him doesn't necessarily mean
that he did it yet, right, And then the kids

(01:01:14):
all don't believe that, right, Yeah, So like why put
those kids in therapy? Don't talk to him about it.

Speaker 1 (01:01:22):
Right, Like lave your opinions to yourself, like talk amongst
the adults about it. Stop including the children in it.
Yeah they're teenagers, but still at the same time, like
just stop it. Because in the interview, like the kids said, like,
they would discuss about discuss it in front of us,
and it always made us angry and like, don't be

(01:01:42):
that way, don't be shitty, Stop being shitty. So Kirk
was in jail for four months before he bonded out,
and then he was on house arrest for three and
a half years before whoa Yeah. So while Kirk was
on house arrest, Rachel and Heidi weren't allowed to be

(01:02:05):
alone with their father. So since right, so, since they
were still minors, there had to be somebody else over
eighteen there for them to be able to be there.
So the friend Julia who found Pam stepped up. In

(01:02:26):
the Dayline episode, she said that she took the girls
driving so that they could get their driver's license and
stuff like that, so I think she would also leaned
towards it. He didn't do it. It didn't read so
I suck. Well, she could just be a neutral party, right, yeah,
And she wanted to interests first, exact first well, and

(01:02:49):
she said in the interview that her first thought was
my entire world has just changed because she just witnessed this,
And then her second thought was those poor kids, their
entire world just like collapsed. Right, yeah, so yeah, so
she really cared about the kids as well. So when

(01:03:09):
the trial time rolled around, Pam and Kirk's divorced was
the forefront of the proceedings. They said money was the
motive so and they also said that Kirk's cell phone
put him home that night, put his car's computer system
put him in the area of Pam's office. Surveillance in
the area also picked up a car similar to Kirk's.

(01:03:31):
It wasn't clear enough to know for sure whether it
was his, you know, so again possibility but no facts,
true facts to it. So they also found gunshot residue
on the gear shifter in his car. They also had

(01:03:55):
a supposed eyewitness, but she fell apart when questioned, like
there were clips of it. She just kind of fell
apart one question. So Kirk drove a silver Hondai Sonata,
but Mary Legg, the witness, said that she saw a
man exiting the back of Pam's office building and putting
a bag into a black car, not a silver car

(01:04:18):
that he drove. And they when they had questioned, yeah,
and when they're like you set a black car, and
she's like, yeah, it was a black car.

Speaker 2 (01:04:25):
So well, it just goes to show, don't they say
now that like eyewitnesses are one of the least reliable,
right because they can take the witness but you should
be able to find actual evidence to back up the witnesses.

Speaker 1 (01:04:39):
Statement, right, Yeah, Like that's so easy for because when
you're seeing well and she said at the time she
didn't realize what she was saying, but she did supposedly
see that.

Speaker 2 (01:04:52):
But in the same time, like I think your mind
plays tricks. So you're being asked what color was the car,
and maybe you don't remember, but then your mind just
fills it in with a.

Speaker 1 (01:05:01):
Right, that sounds sense. Yeah. The defense called the computer
the car computer tracker thingy junk science, the legal term,
a very legal term, so they basically said it was
junk science, like that there was no facts to put him,
you know there, like just in the area or whatever.

(01:05:24):
They said that the residue on the gearshift could have
been accidentally put there by sloppy, sloppy police work, so
like if police had been at the scene and then
checked his car, because I don't know how much was there,
but it was definitely enough to be like picked up.

(01:05:45):
The defense also made it a point to tell of
how Kirk was treated as a suspect versus the other
two men. Eldon and Scott were allowed to drive themselves
and like in for questioning, while Kirk was taken in
by five fleets from outside his State Farm office. So like,
you know, so he's a husband. So they also pointed

(01:06:09):
out that money wasn't a romotive in this case because
Kirk was making ninety five thousand dollars a year. I
guess I'd working for State Farm, and that Kirk had
two hundred and forty thousand dollars in his four own
k that he had a full pension and could retire
at any time. So Kirk said, you know, the four
thousand dollars wasn't anything for him to worry about. That Panmaz,

(01:06:32):
that's it.

Speaker 2 (01:06:32):
Didn't you say that he had been upset about kind
of about that and that she got the house?

Speaker 1 (01:06:37):
Well that was again that was supposed here or stay
so late, Oh okay, got cha, somebody Some people say this,
but then others are saying so the you know, one
side saying he's a pile of shit, he whatever, and
then the other side saying, no, he's a great person.
So it's kind of like up in the air. So
there was also a lady who reportedly heard gunshots from

(01:07:00):
two blocks away around five to ten pm. So that
would be the time that pam was meeting with Eldon Whitlow,
the client. Okay, And so for why Kirk didn't answer
the door when Kate has grew upend showed up early
and knocked just because he said he had fall asleep
reading a book. And he woke up around seven and

(01:07:20):
texted Kate and then she came back over and they
hung out for a few hours at his house, so,
you know, and I think she said that his car
was there, should have brought the down. I haven't. Well,
I'm going to tell you the article so you could
look for yourselves. After five weeks of trial, just seven
hours of deliberation over the course of two days in

(01:07:41):
May of twenty nineteen, Kirk Zimmerman was found not guilty. Really, yeah,
I think believe that Pamela's case is unsolved.

Speaker 2 (01:07:55):
Oh my gosh.

Speaker 1 (01:07:56):
Yeah, So I know, I got like, I got to
the end of this case and I'm like, I like,
I just thought they were even if he wasn't guilty,
I thought, you know, they're always they're gonna put it
on me, except.

Speaker 2 (01:08:10):
I think steet lines always wrap up at the end.
I thought, and.

Speaker 1 (01:08:15):
At this time, what the fuck? Yeah, So, like I said,
as of right now, her case is unsolved. I tried
to find any more information on it because, like I said,
May twenty nineteen is when he was found not guilty,
so I couldn't find anything further on that. I think
I read one article where he obviously moved away from

(01:08:39):
there because I already thought that he was guilty, and
that their kids have I don't know, I don't know
how to word it. They're you know, they're healing from
this and they're doing okay, and they again completely support
the fact that their father didn't do this and that
they think it had something to do with her work
versus her personal life. So if you or anyone you

(01:09:02):
know knows anything, contact the Bloomington Police Department at three
oh nine eight two zero eight eight eight eight.

Speaker 2 (01:09:12):
What the fuck?

Speaker 1 (01:09:13):
I know, I know as soon as I realized, like
we both just did, unsolved today, and I feel so
bad for her kids, like her kids basically feel like
they I think she said at the end of the day,
line one of the daughters, but they're glad that their
father was found innocent, but they don't know that if
case will ever be solved now because they were so
focused on their father versus trying to pursue other avenues.

Speaker 2 (01:09:38):
Right, So their father is not found guilty, but there's
still no closure, you know.

Speaker 1 (01:09:42):
Right, Yeah, I mean their mom's still done. They don't
know who did it or why or anything. So that
is the murder of Pamela' Zimmerman. Like I said, there's
a dateline episode called Before Midnight, and then there was
a week dot com article words, a Week dot Com

(01:10:08):
article by Kylebeachi, Pantagraph dot com article by Edith Brady Looney,
and then Pantograph also had her obituary, which I pulled
some information from. There was a heavy dot com article
on it. And then I also put down here because

(01:10:29):
there's a article on it that just like covered the case.
I didn't use it, but it isn't R S B
L a W firm dot com, so basically just covered
the case in the trial. So that was that fucking
whirl ind of the case. Yeah, I should pull my

(01:10:50):
funny kid stuff. Do you have anything funny things?

Speaker 2 (01:10:53):
I have one small one for me. So I started
putting out some fall Halloween stuff. Mm hmm, because it's
so why not, And it's been kind of feeling like
fall around here. I went straight from like ninety degrees
to like sixty.

Speaker 1 (01:11:11):
Degrees, so I had my heat on this morning.

Speaker 2 (01:11:14):
I was feeling fall and one of the boys told
me that it was too early to have the fallen
halloween stuff out looked at which everyone was straight in
the eyebill say you can mind your own business or
get in the spooky spirit.

Speaker 1 (01:11:28):
I love her, I feel it. So I have one
from yesterday, the last two minutes of the pe Google meet,
which is funny. I'm not just to me that there's
a pe Google meat meat, but that's a whole nother thing.
The pe teacher like ask or told everybody that they

(01:11:50):
could unmute themselves and just talk them amongst themselves. And
I'm like, that's a fucking awful idea. So obviously, as
soon as those words come out of our mouth, everybody's unmuted.
Everybody's shouting at each other, everybodys yelling random names. Some
kids are just making random fucking clucking noises, I don't know,
just to get the attention on them. Yep. And my
poor kid, He turned the volume down as far as

(01:12:12):
he could on the computer without shutting it off, and
then said to everybody unmuted. You guys don't have to
be so loud.

Speaker 2 (01:12:20):
He's like, could you knock it off?

Speaker 1 (01:12:21):
Though, yeah, it was. It was so funny. He's like, guys,
you don't have to be so loud, and it was funny.
And then she the pee teacher, asked what the kids
had been doing individually. She had on a mute to
tell to keep active during the summer. So the day
before yesterday, he cut down a little pine tree out

(01:12:42):
front and reburied it out back by his treehouse. So
instead of saying, oh, I ride my bike or we've
gone hiking, he said that he reburied a pine tree
and he was growing it with the fuck off. So
that's my kid.

Speaker 2 (01:12:59):
That's my kid. Your kid's one of the most sarcastic
kids I've ever met.

Speaker 1 (01:13:04):
He is extremely sarcastic. That's partially my fault. Okay, wait,
well countains extreme, Like we are both so sarcastic, and
he like has just picked up on it. Yeah, So
as soon as he started talking, it was just straight sarcas.
I'm like, there's nothing I'm doing no.

Speaker 2 (01:13:24):
I say that fully knowing that I have three pretty
sarcastic kids.

Speaker 1 (01:13:29):
My daughter is like, she's fantastic.

Speaker 2 (01:13:33):
I don't know what we're gonna do with her when
she's older, but yeah, just fun stuff.

Speaker 1 (01:13:40):
Should I tell everybody where to find us. You can
find us on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter at the Ship
Show TCP. You can email us at Shit SHOWTCP at
gmail dot com. And I don't know why I said
it that way, because that was it there.

Speaker 2 (01:14:00):
You can find us anywhere you listen to podcasts. Please like, subscribe,
and follow us, share us with your friends. If you
take a screenshot of our episode or whatever episode you're
listening to, and share it on your social media, tag
us in it, and I'll send you a sticker. Leave
us a nice review and send us a picture of that,

(01:14:21):
and I will send you to stickers. Please, for the
love of God, send us your funny kid stories so
that I don't have to keep remembering mine.

Speaker 1 (01:14:29):
Thank you for real. Somebody hook us up.

Speaker 2 (01:14:32):
I put it out on Twitter, but I need to.

Speaker 1 (01:14:35):
I know, I need to post on Facebook or something
and be like, hey, somebody tell me something funny about
your kid, because I'm too lazy to put my own down.

Speaker 2 (01:14:47):
All right, that's all we have for this one. Thanks
for listening. Hey Bye, okay bye,