81. The Lipstick Killer

This week Talysa covers the crazy case of The Lipstick Killer. Were the cases linked? Did William do it? Sarah is very upset. 

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:11):
Hey, I'm te Lisa and I'm Sarah. Welcome to the
Shit Show That's true Grand podcast. Guys. Yeah, I forgot.
I completely forgot that part. I have devastating news not
to you because you're just listening to this. We recorded
this episode last week and then I went to edit
it and there was no sound. And I don't know

(00:32):
if you know this or not. You need sound for
a podcast. The whole story was just a blank space,
and it was very sad because we're already kind of
a week late. We had to do re releases last.

Speaker 2 (00:46):
Week because Hi, I moved and that's chaotic, and we
had a tornado. Oh yeah, and the tornado put a
tree on my new house literally the day before, the
day before.

Speaker 1 (00:57):
Closing, so it's been Did they remove that yap? Yes,
but my lawn is Yeah, you're gonna have to recede.
I'll run it up. I just you're just gonna down
and it works really well. Yeah. For their ruts, Oh,
you're gonna have to level that first. Yeah, I don't know.
The neighbors said that they were gonna trouble and like

(01:17):
my neighbors, my new nigh I got to meet all
my new neighbors. Oh, we can talk about that real quick,
because the tornado in the tree on the house is
old news. That's true, it is. Yeah, I beautiful, well
behaved rule following feral child accidentally shot the neighbor's window
with his baby gun. How I don't fully understand. So

(01:42):
I have to pay to replace that. But they came
over and talk to me about it, so I got
to meet them.

Speaker 2 (01:46):
And then while I was talking to those neighbors, the
ones on the other side walked over just to be like, Hi,
we're introducing the neighborhood's introducing themselves to the new neighbors
under the worst circumstances I guess, not the worst circumstances,
but like under less than ideal circumstances. And so they
walked over and that guy was like, because the tree
I guess was like kind of partly on.

Speaker 1 (02:03):
Their property, oh okay or whatever.

Speaker 2 (02:05):
And he told the old owners that he would take
care of the lawn and stuff so they didn't have
to pay for whatever. So he was telling me all
about that, and I was like, hey, dude, that's like
I been so low on the priority list for me
right now, I don't even but thank you so much
for you know, yeah, doing that. So I've been just
doing moving stuff and trying to build fucking furniture. Yeah,

(02:26):
which is why I'm so tired today. It's not because
I went out and had a great time somewhere, not
at my house. I was at my house trying to
build furniture till like one o'clock in the morning, and
then I walked out of my house and locked myself
out of my house. But I learned that I still
know how to credit card my way into a home.

Speaker 1 (02:42):
Nice, so I have that going for me.

Speaker 2 (02:45):
And then I got stuck at the train tracks behind
a train after I was already late. So I sent
Sarah a picture much like last week. Yeah, I got
I had to stop on whatever road that is because
there was a huge extended family of geese cross the road.

Speaker 1 (03:00):
Oh yeah, that's right. And then today the train. I
woke up at seven thirty this morning and I was like,
I wonder if she'll forget.

Speaker 2 (03:10):
Oh that's the other thing. Sarah forced me to be
here super early. Well it's not super early, but like
I had tendive plans to maybe go have a good
time somewhere, and Sarah was like, you just have to
be at my house by eight thirty in the morning,
and I was.

Speaker 1 (03:22):
Like, yeah, because I want well, because now we are
recording two episodes today. Yeah, just I mean it makes sense. Yeah.
When you said that, I was like, yeah, okay, fine, mom,
I guess I'll go to work tomorrow. But the way, yeah,
because we are hoping to go canoeing later, which the
more I think about it, I don't know how that's

(03:43):
going to do with my spinal a. She was going on,
so maybe I won't do that. We did go to
waterfall yesterday though, and that was I saw your pictures. Yeah,
we took Remy to Salmon River Fall. Yeah, Salmon River Falls.
It was fucking packed. It was like too in the afternoon,
like peaky. I'm like, it's not there's going to be
nobody here, Like it'll be fine. Pargent is packed. I

(04:07):
think like people were like spread out enough to where
it didn't feel like you were on top of everybody.
But then like there were other dogs there, and I
was just I was always worried that somebody was just
gonna let their dog like walk right up to us,
and I didn't like that.

Speaker 2 (04:19):
Speaking of I think I told you this but I
don't know if we were recording it. It doesn't matter if
we're recording, because Hi, the recording didn't happened.

Speaker 1 (04:26):
Happened.

Speaker 2 (04:28):
We just sat in your basement for an hour and
a half chit chat. There's somebody who lives on my
road that walks their golden retriever. Oh yeah, awfully, and
it's just like wanders. That's just this me out around
the road, around people's front lawns like whatever.

Speaker 1 (04:46):
It's so I've never never.

Speaker 2 (04:48):
In my life seen anything like it. And my dogs
are like perched on.

Speaker 1 (04:51):
The way, Mom, why can't I get you do that?
Look how free that dog is? Yeah, that shows is
me out when people do that. Like I don't even
like remy walking out front with us without his leave
shon right, Just my dogs aren't allowed in the front
yard at my new house, Like that's not well because
of the chicken. I was gonna say, Oh guys, we
didn't for sure eat chickens. Oh yeah, I has chickens

(05:13):
that visit her every day. Oh yeah, so we were
We hoped to move in last whatever before we recorded
last and I didn't actually record it, And so I'm
not allowed to lift anything right now? I have a
tethered spinal cord. I can't remember if I've mentioned it before.
And my doctor told me that I had to take
two weeks off of picking things up, and like it
was literally killing me that I could not. Like Tilsa

(05:36):
and Kutten were both like yelling at me the entire dog.
I was just sternly talking to like a concerned mother. Yeah,
and then the chickens wandered over, and I'm like, okay, fine,
I'm going to sit and try to pay chickens.

Speaker 2 (05:46):
So somebody one of the houses across the street they
have like six chickens and they will just come over
in if I if you open my front door, if
I'm like trying to unlock my house. So it's like
I'm racing to get in my house so the chicken
don't get into my house. So the previous owners must
have fed them or something.

Speaker 1 (06:03):
And I think you should continue them, so I come visit.
I bet the chickens, but I'm worried that they'll somehow
get into the backyard with the dogs. Yeah, I get that.
Maybe don't encourage that then, but they were adorable. Yeah,
And it was a perfect timing match. They were all
the same Like when they first popped up, I'm like,

(06:24):
oh my god, there's a chicken. And then like I
turn around and I'm like, wait, is there two? And
then all of a sudden there's six. Yeah, And then
we come back out and there, yeah, there's like just
six sitting there waiting. Yeah. So that's fun. I don't
remember what I did last week. I you know, it
was probably for the best. I was hungover when we
recorded last week because we had a kid free night
the night before and I had lots of margaritas. Oh yeah,

(06:47):
because you didn't invite me. And I was like, thanks
so much. I did take your call, though you did
thank you for taking my call like a CEO. Oh.
I just meant like because we were getting ready to
leave when you called me. I was very point in
my food. But the margarito was very good. That's all
the matters. What were you there for? Both? Mostly the margarito? Yeah,
like Kent and I was like, can I just pick

(07:07):
it up and bring it home? I'm like, can you
bring rito's home? Like do they do that? It's been
during COVID like they started doing that. So I'm like
called him and asked, and he's like, we'll just go
and I'm like, okay, cool, okay, fine, I'll put pants on.
Did I or did I wear dress? I did put
pants on. I had to wear two dresses this week
and you didn't send me. And I don't have a mirror,

(07:28):
so I don't believe that it happened. I don't have
a mirror. I don't have a thing to clean my
water bottle. I don't have a cooking utensil holder. This
is the list bit.

Speaker 2 (07:38):
I don't have cooking utensil holder? What else did I
decide last night that.

Speaker 1 (07:42):
I was like, did you ever buy knives? I did
buy knives? That was okay, So hi everyone. I moved
into my new house. It was a billion degrees out
and I had the kids obviously, and I went to
the grocery store to like put groceries in the new house,
and I was like, oh, it's a million degrees out
and the kids love watermelon. Watermelon. Brought it home and
then realized I didn't have any knives. How did you

(08:06):
end up? Did you just like smash it and let
them spoon out what they want to know? I went
like the next day or two days later and just
got a knife seat. I had to bring the boys
to the Walmart and it was very over stimulating. Oh yeah,
too bright, too many people. It is too chaotic. I
don't like it. I'm not I don't.

Speaker 2 (08:25):
This can make me sound really snobby. I don't chop
at Walmart typically. Oh my god, and I it's too
it is a lot. I'm I was too overstimulated.

Speaker 1 (08:33):
I don't know. So anyway, that's now you get two
weeks worth of book dates, everything going on. So I'm
going to retell Sarah this case. I'm going to tell
you about our social media's first though, fuck okay, and
then I honestly I'm just putting it off because I
was very irate last week, so I can't now like
I know what to expect. I'm gonna be even more like, Okay, well,

(08:55):
I we just talked about this before we while we
were setting up, I forgot what I even covered, so
oh yeah yeah. And then I said that when you so,
you a text me that it didn't record when you
went to edit and everything, and I'm like, you've got
to be shitting me. So then I had to explain
it to account and he's like, WHOA, what's going on?
And I'm like, where you have to re record? And
her case was fucking awful? And then he's like, well,
what was it? And I'm like, I don't remember. It

(09:16):
was just awful. Yeah, Like it was just like yesterday.
I was like, what the fuck did I even cover
last week? Oh? No? And then yeah, so then I'm like, uh,
I did finally, Yeah, my rain did finally work. But
I'm like, I don't remember. It was just fucking awful.
So yeah, so real quick. You can find us on
Facebook at The Shit Show, a true crime podcast. You
can find us on Instagram, Twitter, TikTok YouTube at the

(09:39):
Shit Show TCP. You can email us at Shit SHOWTCP
at gmail dot com. Case suggestions anything, be nice, don't
be weird, Please, I can't take anymore. Please? Where am
I subscribe and review on Apple Podcast? It helps push
us out to more people. Thank you to all of
our new listeners, and also so I can comment on

(10:00):
Spotify obviously, chares with your friends and do all the following.
Thank you, thank you, and goodbye. Yeah that's all. We're
here for our weekly update and then we're moving on.
You don't get the episode this week.

Speaker 2 (10:12):
You know what I'm gonna do is try to find
our stickers? Oh did I have somewhere and stick one
on that I have?

Speaker 1 (10:18):
Just it blinds me. I am covering the lipstick killer
this week. Surprise, surprise that everybody but me, you know, Okay.
On June fifth, nineteen forty five, forty three year old
Josephine Ross had been found in her Chicago apartment dead
from multiple stab wounds to the neck. A skirt had

(10:39):
been wrapped around her neck, and her wounds had been
taped shut. I literally get a visceral feeling, like every time,
every time you say that, tell me, I feel it,
and just the whole tape part of it, I can't.
It's just so weird, like it is the wildest thing.
It's like to me, it's like a kid who I
was messed up, and like they're trying to fix the problem,

(11:00):
but they don't know how to fix the problem, right.

Speaker 2 (11:03):
I didn't come across that last week, see, so so
keep that in mind.

Speaker 1 (11:08):
Yeah, okay. Her home had been ransacked, but nothing appeared
to have been taken, and while police found like reportedly
no fingerprints at the scene, which I think is weird,
like every house has to be like a fingerprint orgy
fingerprint orgy. Yeah, maybe she had just cleaned. How thoroughly
is that is? Are we not my house? I don't know.

(11:30):
It depends on how overstimulated you are. You know what,
That's fair? Okay, So they reportedly found no fingerprints on
the scene. They did find a few dark hairs clutched
in Josephine's hand, leading them to believe they're looking for
a dark haired suspect. But latch, which is I mean,
that's great detective work. It is trying to clear my
thrown It didn't work. Okay, I think I'm having an

(11:54):
allergic correction to your cap. Did you medicate? I locked
myself out of my house this morning? Oh, I didn't medicate.
I'm just gonna have a bottle since I just like
rolled out of my Look at me. I'm still wearing
my husband's shirt. I am wearing a tank top that
doesn't require me to wear a bra. I honestly know.
I really want to order some though that I have
a first hand review. Okay.

Speaker 2 (12:14):
With a few leads to go off, it seemed that
jo Justphine's murder would go unsolved. No valuables taken from
the apartment, and there was apparently a witness that may
have seen a man fleeing.

Speaker 1 (12:23):
So I think Chicago at this time.

Speaker 2 (12:25):
You corrected me last week and said all the time
like crime rates, you know whatever. So they were like,
that was the weirdest murder ever. We don't have any leads.
We have to move on to the next thing to
be investigated.

Speaker 1 (12:38):
Yes.

Speaker 2 (12:38):
Then the body of thirty two year old stenographer Francis
Brown was discovered six months later on the morning of
December eleventh, in the bathroom of her apartment at the
Pine Grove Hotel. Francis had been shot in the head
and stabbed with a bread knife that had been driven
into her neck with such force that the blade emerged
through the other side of her throat. Her body had
been stripped, naked, rinsed of blood, and her head was

(13:01):
wrapped in towels.

Speaker 1 (13:03):
Yeah, I just I can't imagine a bread like a
bread knife, Like it's not even sharp. That took a
lot of force. And did they leave it there? I
like it since it was there, I don't know. That's
like speaks to the level of like. Also, we're not
doing video this week, just for simplicity reasons, and we

(13:24):
both have our hands left like work up by faces,
clutching our pearls. Yeah, well, wrapping her up again, like
I'm trying to fix my mistakes. I learned from criminal mindset.
That's a sign of remorse. Yeah yeah, but again it's
like the kid who did something wrong and now they're
trying to figure out how to fix it without telling mom,
are we switching sites? No? I know, I don't. Okay,

(13:49):
Oh are we not? Okay, we're going to see. So
once again, there was a startling lack of evidence, and
very little appeared to have been stolen, if anything at all,
which I think sometimes it's hard to tell, like if
you stole something like a pack of cigarettes or something like,
how would right? And I was just thinking that because.

Speaker 2 (14:05):
It's not like I don't have any inventory of things
in my house, but right now it looks like it
was ransacked, because could you.

Speaker 1 (14:10):
Just moved a moving I was just thinking about that,
because like if somebody like took one thing from upstairs,
like nobody's gonna notice it, connor might that's true, you
for sure would notice.

Speaker 2 (14:24):
Police found a bloody fingerprint smudge on a door jiam
of the entrance door, and a witness said that they
heard gunshots around four am, and the building's night clerk
said that a nervous looking man of about thirty five
to forty years old, weighing one hundred and forty pounds
exited the elevator and left the building around that time.
At one point, Chicago police announced that they had reason

(14:46):
to believe that their killer was a woman. I don't
know if it was like the size of the maybe
man that might have come off the elevator.

Speaker 1 (14:56):
I didn't see. I don't know. I thought you said
that last week. I don't think so. I think you
asked how tall the person that we're going to be
talking about is, and I was like, I don't know, average.
He looked average to me. It's weird, Like why are
we not asking questions, because, like, if you're a night
clerk for a building, you know who is and isn't
supposed to be there. I don't know, man, he was

(15:19):
probably sleeping, never mind.

Speaker 2 (15:20):
Yeah, the overnight person at a hotel for sure sleeping
or doesn't give a fuck, depending on what kind of
hotel it is, you know what I mean?

Speaker 1 (15:31):
Yeah, I know. I also like you could just walk
into it. He's just there. I think some people that's
the thing, those long stay things. Yeah. Yeah, And if
you just walk into a hotel with like confidence and whatever,
I have none of the free reign of the building. Okay.
So back to them thinking that the killer is a woman. Okay.

Speaker 2 (15:48):
This was probably because of one clue that was left
behind for the police, a strange message scrawled on the
living room wall in for instance's own red lipstick. It said, quote,
for Heaven's sake, catch me before I kill more. I
cannot control myself and the message on the wall, so
I don't have a picture in front of me.

Speaker 1 (16:06):
But we talked about it last time we recorded this,
which didn't happen. Which didn't happen.

Speaker 2 (16:11):
It's like some uppercase, some lower case, like the upper
cases in the middle of the words. Some of it's
like cursive letters, but nothing is connected. It's like, to me,
looked like it was chaotic on purpose.

Speaker 1 (16:24):
Yeah, it to me it looked very intentional because like,
because like I said, like my writing, I like I
do sometimes go in and out of like print and cursive,
but it flows, you know what I mean. And this
writing it was it didn't flow at all like it was,
so it seemed very intentional. That they were just placing
random like upper trying to make it look like a

(16:45):
crazy person wrote it. Yeah, it definitely was on purpose
that they didn't.

Speaker 2 (16:50):
I did also read, and I know I don't have
been in here, I did also read one thing that
said people kind of suspected that maybe newspapers got to
that scene before police and a reporter might have written
that message because this is called the lipstick Killer for
this series of murders. Yeah, this is the only time
lipstick is involved.

Speaker 1 (17:10):
Yes, so, like I don't somebody wanted a headline, is
what it and now it's known as that as that,
and it might not even have anything to do with it, right,
So local newspapers immediately pick up the story of Francis
Brown's murder, splashing the photos of the message across their
front pages and branded the colp the lipstick Killer. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (17:30):
Also, like with a living in the hotel thing, I
don't know if like a hotel apartment, because everything said
that these three murders were all in like an affluent area,
So I don't know.

Speaker 1 (17:41):
Yeah, I would assume, you know what I mean. Yeah,
it's one of those like long stay like, yeah, you
can basically live out of it right, What was the
ear again that we're in nineteen forty six? Okay, this
was a game. I don't know. I feel like it
was more common back then too, to like live out
of a freaking hotel. All right, Well, you are the
one that does all the cases from way back, and

(18:03):
everybody's always in it. Everyone is always in a hotel.
All right.

Speaker 2 (18:06):
Again, I forgot to put this disclaimer at the beginning,
But there is a child murder that I'll be talking
about next. So if you want to listen to that,
totally get it. Just give ahead like two or three minutes,
and just know there's a third victim that's a child.

Speaker 1 (18:24):
All right.

Speaker 2 (18:26):
So we have the first two murders. Everybody's like, holy shit.
Those are two horrific crime scenes and kind of just
waiting for the next month. The first two are six
months apart, so the last one was in December, and
then around seven thirty on the morning of January seventh,
a man named James Degnan discovered that his six year
old daughters soon was missing from her first floor bedroom.

(18:49):
Police swarmed the home and immediately began a search of
that neighborhood. Police found I read a ladder or like
a step ladder, so like a little lader. It's a
first floor thing, but like, yeah, I'm picturing like you know,
a big house.

Speaker 1 (19:03):
Yeah, windows, Oh my god, I'm dying.

Speaker 2 (19:05):
So police found a ladder outside of her window in
a ransom note that said get twenty thousand dollars ready
and wait for my word. Do not notify the FBI
or police. Bills are in fives and tens. Burn this
for her safety. Twenty thousand dollars from nineteen forty six
is about three hundred and fifty three thousand dollars in
twenty twenty five dollars, So a lot.

Speaker 1 (19:26):
Of dollars and all in small bills, which is gonna
take for fucking hover, Like, can we have an extension
on when you need this money? Because that's going to
take a decade to get together.

Speaker 2 (19:35):
But like I asking for fives and tents I think
is kind of smart though, because who's tracking all the
fives and tens? Like if you want in hundreds the
serial numbers for all, that would be easier to your track.
I don't really know how they would do any of
the tracking stuff in the forties, but yeah I don't either.

Speaker 1 (19:54):
That's just so w and also like, are we going
to have like a giant duffle bag that we have
to carry, because that's a lot of money that's gonna
drew the attention. It is like how are we also
like how are we getting the money? What are we? Okay?
I guess A man repeatedly called the residence, demanding the ransom.
A local boy named Theodore later said that another local

(20:16):
teenager named Vincent had killed Suzanne. Theodore, who lived several
several blocks from Suzanne, had been convicted of armed robbery
at the age of sixteen and was sent to a
reform school, and Vincent said nope. Theodore said that Vincent
had admitted to kidnapping and killing Suzanne and had told

(20:37):
him to place the phone calls to the Degnan residence.
Vincent was arrested, but polygraph tests indicated that neither boys
had any knowledge of the murderers. They were just being
shitty teenagers, which like don't right. I mean, when I
was a teenager, we would do print calls, but we
never say, hey, I just murdered Never, I just murdered
your kid. Yeah, that's insanity. I don't even know if

(21:00):
we didn't actually even say anything when we do it.
We would just giggle, probably answered and then hung up.
It's a asshold and they always have fun. Yeah. Literally. Uh.
Chicago Mayor Edward Kelly also received a note.

Speaker 2 (21:14):
It said, this is to tell you how I am. Nope,
this is to tell you how sorry I am not
to not get old degnant instead of his girl. Roosevelt
and the OPA made their own laws, why shouldn't I?

Speaker 1 (21:28):
And a lot more so.

Speaker 2 (21:32):
At the time, there was a nationwide meat packer strike
and the Office of Price Administration or the OPA, was
talking about extending rationing to dairy products, and Suzanne's dad, James,
was a senior OPA executive recently transferred to Chicago. Another
executive of the OPA had been recently assigned armed guards

(21:53):
after receiving threats against his children, and a Chicago man
involved with black market meat had recently been murdered by decapitation.
Police consider the possibility that Suzanne's killer was a meat packer.
Pause briefly to throw up at the thought of black
market meat.

Speaker 1 (22:12):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (22:12):
Also, like you said, black market meat, is that like
the mob's meat market Like.

Speaker 1 (22:21):
Yeah, because that's that's weird. Like did he go on
somebody else's territory and so black market meet. I don't know.
The whole situation is just fucking weird, and it does
make me that part, like this part of it makes
me feel like, is there a mob died? But then
also I don't feel like the mob would just go
around killing people's children, and like they kill people, but
not like this. Yeah that I'm about to get into again. Yes,

(22:44):
we're getting into, big warning. Yeah, Okay.

Speaker 2 (22:47):
Acting on an anonymous tip, police discovered Suzanne's head in
a sewer a block from the Degnan residence. The ribbons
that tied in her hair that morning were still in place,
and other dismembered mains were found in other stewers and
storm drains. The last of her remains were discovered a
month after her murder and after she had already been buried.
Blood was found in the drains of laundry tubs in

(23:10):
the basement laundery room in a nearby apartment. Police questioned
hundreds of people, administered polygraph tests to about one hundred
and seventy, and several times they claimed that they had
captured the killer, although all were eventually released. The coroner
put the time of death between twelve thirty and one

(23:31):
am and stated that a very sharp knife had been
used to expertly dismember the body the basement launder room.

Speaker 1 (23:37):
I just said that I did.

Speaker 2 (23:38):
That last week too, So basically they were like, that's
obviously where the dismemberment happened, and they determined that she
was already dead when she was taken there. The corner
stated that the killer was either a man who worked
in a profession that required the study of anatomy or
one with a background in dissection. Not even the average
doctor could be as skillful, had to be a meat cutter.

(24:01):
The corner added that it was a very clean job
with absolutely no signs of hacking, so no hesitation. Yeah,
like the marks like this, I mean could not have
been their first time doing something like this, because right
and to be out of properly were this. They were
so quick about it too.

Speaker 1 (24:21):
It snatcher right, snatcher, killed her, dismembered her, dispersed across
the town or city. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (24:31):
Sixty five year old Hector Berg Verberg. Sixty five year
old Hector Verberg, a janitor in the building where Suzanne lived,
was arrested and treated as a suspect. Police told the
press that this was the man. Despite discrepancies between Hector's
profile and the one that police had developed regarding like
the skills of the killer surgical knowledge experiences.

Speaker 1 (24:53):
Butcher all that.

Speaker 2 (24:55):
Police noted that Hector had frequently frequented the so called
murder room the basement because he worked, because he worked there,
and they said that the quote grimy state of the
ransom note suggested that it had been written by a
dirty hand, such as that of a janitor.

Speaker 1 (25:11):
Because janitors never washed their hands. I'm sorry, what the
fuck I know. I don't feel like any of the
police that were involved in this had any fucking logic
to find in their brains. Well, they did find the
dark hair in the first victim's hand, and they were like,
we're looking for a dark heard suspect, and that that
is the only thing that they did correct. The police
also pressured Hector's wife to implicate him in the murder,

(25:34):
but she was like, you can go fuck off. Police
held Hector for forty eight hours of questioning and beatings
that severely injured him, including a separated shoulder. He spent
ten days in the hospital. Throughout all of.

Speaker 2 (25:44):
This, Hector denied involvement in the murder and his janitor's
union lawyer.

Speaker 1 (25:50):
Janitor's union lawyer.

Speaker 2 (25:52):
Secured Hector's release on a writ of habeas corpus, and
Hector said this of the experience. He said, quote, Oh,
they hanged me up. They blindfolded me. I can't put
up my arms there sore. They had handcuffs on me
for hours and hours. They threw me in a salum,
blindfolded me. They handcuffed my hands behind my back and
pulled me up on bars until my toes touched the floor.

Speaker 1 (26:14):
I didn't eat. I went to the hospital. I'm so
sick anymore, and I would have confessed to anything. It
is crazy to me that he didn't break because I mean,
we've talked about in the past, like how many times
have like a forced confession because of shitty police work,
And this is clearly like the shittiest of all police work. Like, honestly,

(26:37):
I think that might be the worst. Sarah, don't give
away the ending police work. No, I'm saying it just
even just so far, like of all of the cases
we've ever covered, I genuinely feel like this is the
worst police work, just because they're like beating people to
try to get rather than putting the effort into finding
the real murderer. Murderer, murderer, we're.

Speaker 2 (26:58):
Just assaulting somebody because we were too lazy to actually
do our jobs right, right, because if we pinned on someone,
then the case is closed.

Speaker 1 (27:03):
Duh. It was determined that Hector, who was a Belgian immigrant,
could not write in English well enough to have penned
even the crudely written ransom note. He successfully sued the
Chicago Police Department for fifteen thousand dollars and his wife
also received five thousand dollars that would be two hundred
and sixty five grand in twenty twenty five money for

(27:26):
Hector and about eighty eight grand in twenty twenty five
money for his wife, which says a lot about the
situation that he sued them in won. Yeah, I think
they need They should have gotten much more. But again,
money isn't going to fix the trauma you now have,
no But I think it's also just like a win,
like the court said, right, like this was out and

(27:48):
it's on record, this is what happened to me and
for back then. I'm kind of surprised that they did
like side with him so good on the court for that.
I hate that saying is that a safing good on
if he but could on the court, wasn't saying go
out on to the good on like good on onto
another shitty thing. Another notable false lead was that of

(28:09):
Sidney Sherman, a recently discharged marine who had served in
World War Two. Police had found blonde hair in the
back of the degnant apartment building, and nearby was a
wire the authorities suspected could have been used as a
garat to strangle Suzanne. Near that was a handkerchief that
police suspected might have been used as a gag to
keep her quiet. On the handkerchief was a laundry mark

(28:31):
name S. Sherman.

Speaker 2 (28:33):
The police hoped that maybe the killer had accidentally left
it behind. They searched military records and discovered of Sidney
Sherman lived in the Hyde Park YMCA and police saw look. Nope,
they didn't see him, and police looked for him for questioning,
but discovered that he had vacated the residence without notice
and quit his job without collecting his final paycheck. And also,

(28:57):
I don't know why I called it a residence when
it's a YMC.

Speaker 1 (29:00):
Don't ask. I really would like to know Lake, what
the living situation is at the YMCA.

Speaker 2 (29:06):
I don't know, I said, because like I'm picturing hours
and y is. It's probably from the forties. Honestly, it's
it's very dilapidated.

Speaker 1 (29:18):
Yeah. The whole building shakes from the air. Crimson. Yeah, yeah,
the whole upper floor. Then all of the medals touch
each other. Okay, anyway, I'm avoiding this. I don't know
if you I know, Okay, Jesus Christ, Okay.

Speaker 2 (29:33):
So to style Pature, a nationwide manhunt went on, and
Sherman was found four days later in Toledo, Ohio. He
was like, no, dude, that's not my handkerchief and said, like,
you know, he's under interigation. He was like, me and
my girlfriend just eloped and we just wanted to leave.

Speaker 1 (29:53):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (29:54):
He passed a polygraph test and was later cleared, and
then allegedly the handkerchief's true owner, Seymour Sherman, of New
York City, was eventually found. He had been abroad when
Susan was murdered and didn't know why his handkerchief was
in Chicago. The presence of the handkerchief was determined to
be a coincidence. I think that maybe it wasn't Seymour's

(30:17):
either exactly, like how many fucking s Sherman's can there
be in Chicago at the time, And like you said
last week, they I mean they looked at military records,
I think, because it's like you look at the data
databases that you have.

Speaker 1 (30:32):
Yeah, but like outside of that, right, it's the phone
book are we going through?

Speaker 2 (30:37):
That handkerchief could have belonged to a child, literally, anybody
whose mom sewed as Sherman into the handkerchief and then
they dropped it because kids lose everything.

Speaker 1 (30:48):
Yeah, I don't. Again, great police work so far. The
police are present. They are present, okay. Richard and Russell
Thomas was a nurse living in Phoenix, Arizona, who had
moved from Chicago at the time of the investigation. He
was actually in prison in Phoenix for molesting one of
his own daughters, although he had been in Chicago when

(31:10):
Suzann was murdered. A handwriting expert for the Phoenix Police
Department told the Chicago authorities of the great similarities between
Richard's handwriting and that of Suzanne's ransom note, noting that
many of the phrases that Thomas used in an extortion
note in some like this guy, he's a shitty person
as a shitty person. But there was like similar phrases

(31:33):
used between the ransom note in the and whatever extortion note. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (31:38):
It was also noted that his medical training fit the
criteria of the police profile.

Speaker 1 (31:43):
Although he lived in the South Side of Chicago, he
frequented a car yard directly across the street from the
location where some of Suzanne's body parts were found. During
questioning by Chicago police, he freely admitted to killing Susan,
really admitted. Was he getting the shit beat out of him?

(32:04):
With like either way, he's a shitty dude, clearly because
he has like actual charge or you know, things that
he's been found guilty of and assaulting your own child
being one of them is fucking crazy to me. But again,
the just the police.

Speaker 2 (32:20):
Work is a par so par I mean, that guy
didn't sue the Chicago police because he's in jail. Yeah,
tell me what, Okay, But you know, so they have
this guy who's like admitting to whatever kind of fits
the profile all that, but authorities were intrigued by promising
new suspect, reported to a newspaper on the same day

(32:42):
that the Thomas development broke and now wondering, like, is
it just that this new suspect was close by and
this other guy is all the way in fucking Arizona, right, Yes,
brniching a gun at police in possibly tried to kill
one of the pursuing policemen to escape. So by this
time Thomas had recanted his confession, but no one really

(33:04):
cared because they were like, look at this guy over
here with his gun trying.

Speaker 1 (33:07):
To kill a cop. Burglaring, burglarizing, Burglelan Burgolan. William George
Harrons was born in Evanston, Illinois, right before the Great
Depression in nineteen twenty eight. William grew up in a tense,
poverty stricken household and to escape his parents arguing he
would frequently wander the streets just searching for some really

(33:29):
from the stress of his home life.

Speaker 2 (33:30):
Yeah, at the age of twelve, while he was working
at a grocery store, William accidentally short changed himself with
the customer. So gave the customer like a dollar extra
in because that is.

Speaker 1 (33:39):
A mistake of twelve year old it's going to make.
It's a mistaken I might make, I sam even like
if I'm having a yard sale, I still use my
calculator because I don't ever want to accidentally.

Speaker 2 (33:50):
It's no like I didn't count change back, but like,
I don't know, man, sometimes whatever I'm bad at math,
I'm not doing math and I'm counting the change back.
If you were like, Talsa, do this math in your head,
I'd be like, I'm not going to do that. I
will physically count it back to you. So he short
changed himself, and to make up for it, he stole
a single dollar from an apartment by reaching through the

(34:13):
crack on a chain door.

Speaker 1 (34:15):
How he knew that dollar would be there? I don't know.
Is this a true thing that happened or is it? Oh?
I never thought about that.

Speaker 2 (34:23):
The media adding whatever, It doesn't really matter because he's
later proven to be somebody who burgles.

Speaker 1 (34:31):
Yeah. So, but it is said that like he loved
the thrill of it, like of taking stuff, taking stuff. Yeah,
all right. So this small, active petty theft ignited something
in William, and from there he graduated steer stealing, like
larger stealer ring, stealing larger sums of money and some
personal items.

Speaker 2 (34:50):
He soon found himself with a small collection of Pilford
objects that range from expensive to just fucking normal shit cameras,
cocktail shakers, guns, handkerchiefs, and undergarments.

Speaker 1 (35:03):
Oh I missed that part last time. God damn it, William,
Oh God.

Speaker 2 (35:09):
I wanted A couple of the articles were like and panties,
and I was like, I'm not calling them panties.

Speaker 1 (35:14):
It's fucking weird. According to a nineteen forty eight psychiatric study,
he later told his parents that his theft was a
quote unquote troubling, troubling habit. You don't say something that
he found strangely exciting. How about you go take a
cold shower instead? How about go jump out of an airplane?
I don't know did they do that back then? Probably?
I don't know. I feel like people there were paratroopers

(35:37):
and yeah, but I went like for funsies. I don't know.

Speaker 2 (35:41):
Man, he could be like the guy in New Jersey
for the shark case that I did that was jumping
into shark water to prove that sharks weren't. Oh yeah,
he could do something like that. But he's in Illinois.

Speaker 1 (35:54):
There no sharks there. He could go join the meat market,
the black market, meat market meet I get over that,
Like all I can think about is it was randomly
the truck rocks that that's exactly what I was thinking of.
I don't twice like in the last few years, I've
had them stop here and ask if my parents were home.

Speaker 2 (36:16):
Somebody at the golf course asked me if I got
the job I picked up shifts at. I don't know
if I'll keep this in Ornet, but I picked up
shifts at a golf course in the clubhouse, and this
guy asked me if I picked up shifts for summer
break because I was out of college.

Speaker 1 (36:31):
Because college was out or something like that. I cackled, but, hey,
I'm thirty five. Hi. Hello. Although I the older that
we get, I do appreciate it much more. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (36:42):
Well, and this is after like one of the other
regulars like was asking like whatever, and he said that
he thought that I was like, you know, twenty six, okay,
and I was like, thank you so much. And then
the next day this other guy says that, and so
I start laughing. The regular who just asked me about
my age the day before, yeah, started laughing too, and
then he announced to everybody there that I was thirty five.

Speaker 1 (37:02):
And I was like, Randy, that is rude. Yeah, ladies,
eight Dad, you were on the shit list, Randy. Okay.

Speaker 2 (37:09):
So this troubling habit got William into trouble when, at
the age of thirteen, he was arrested for breaking into
a local apartment basement. He was eventually sent to a
semi correctional boys' school in Indiana. His time there proved fruitless,
as he was arrested again the following summer. This time,
the court recommended that William be sent to a private

(37:32):
institute in central Illinois. At both places, William proved to
be a great student. He had good grades. At the
age of sixteen, he qualified for courses at the University
of Chicago as part of a gifted students program, and
he enrolled there as a bachelor student at the age
of seventeen and was hoping to become an electrical engineer
one day. So, I know, last week we talked about

(37:55):
how these reform schools and all that like generally suck
and don't actually reform right, Like they didn't do the.

Speaker 1 (38:02):
Job that everybody thought they were going to do. But
I think maybe for.

Speaker 2 (38:05):
William, since his home life was so chaotic and stressful,
like sometimes you just need that structure. Yeah, yeah, and
that's what I was thinking, because like, it's clear as
soon as he had a little bit of structure and stability,
like he blossomed and he did really well. While at
the University of Chicago, William was actively involved in extracurricular

(38:26):
activities like dance in chess, and he was said to
be good looking while liked and had a string of
girlfriends and like at the age of seventeen in college, like,
are there are other seventeen year old girls there?

Speaker 1 (38:36):
Or are they all older? That's yucky. It is yucky
because if roles were reversed, yes, would not be exactly.

Speaker 2 (38:42):
You wouldn't be like, oh, she's got a string of
much older boyfriends.

Speaker 1 (38:47):
I've covered those gateses. Yes, it's not good. Yeah, that
is a to think about because he is still just seventeen,
just a boy. He's just a boy.

Speaker 2 (39:00):
On June twenty sixth, nineteen forty six, William was William
was planning on taking his girlfriend. No, was planning to
take I'm gonna we're gonna just hit that rate right
from the beginning. Okay, I'm gonna cover the Lipstick Killer today.

Speaker 1 (39:16):
I imagine. Okay.

Speaker 2 (39:19):
On June twenty sixth, nineteen forty six, William was planning
to take his girlfriend on a date. Beautifully said he
just needed some extra cash. So William claimed he had
originally planned to cash a thousand dollars savings bond at
the post office, which I'm sure is a totally normal
thing to do. I cash my thousand dollars savings bonds

(39:41):
at the post office every week.

Speaker 1 (39:42):
I was. I don't know back then, I don't know.
It's the forties.

Speaker 2 (39:46):
I have no idea knowing he'd be carrying around a
large amount of cash at night. He decided to also
carry a revolver with him, but the post office.

Speaker 1 (39:54):
Was closed when he arrived.

Speaker 2 (39:56):
So William's like, God, damn it, Like what the fuck
am I going to do now? I want to take
my girlfriend out on a date. So he was like,
what if.

Speaker 1 (40:04):
I just borrow some money from an apartment? What if
I burgle? He stopped by an apartment building in the
same affluent neighborhood where Susan It's Sam, where Susan had
once lived, and reached into an open apartment door, which
why are we not locking our shit? Always lock your doors.

Speaker 2 (40:28):
Unfortunately for William, a tenant spotted him before he got
the chance to take anything. William fled the scene. He
was chased by two policemen. Cornered, the seventeen year old
pulled out his gun. William and the officers give conflicting
accounts of what happened. According to officers, William shot at them,
forcing them to fire their own guns back at him.

(40:50):
William says that the police shot at him first.

Speaker 1 (40:53):
I believe it because so far they've been pretty shoddy.
Get it, this podcast canceled. They're telling dead jokes. Now,
we gotta move on.

Speaker 2 (41:03):
Whatever the case, shots were fired, and William frightened left
at the officers and held one of them down. This
struggle finally ended in like a cartoon esque fashion, when
an off duty officer, still in his swim trunks from
a day at the beach, arrived at the scene and

(41:23):
smashed a stack of flower pots over William's head, rendering
him unconscious.

Speaker 1 (41:28):
I forgot about that part. It literally is.

Speaker 2 (41:32):
It's like blooney to it's Tom and Jerry, yeah, or
them house and that's Tom and Jerry.

Speaker 1 (41:40):
What else is say thinking? Riley Coyote, Yep, that's what
That's what my tunes? Yeah, Because they're just always assaulting
each other and that's what the cops are doing here.
So let's also are we replacing whoever's flower pots we smash,
because they probably worked really hard on those. I doubt it.

Speaker 2 (41:57):
They can just take the savings bun that have apparently
had sleep Okay. After having his head stitched up, William
was transported to the hospital wing of the Cook County Jail. Meanwhile,
police searched his room at the University of Chicago, his
parents' home, in a locker he kept at a local
train station, all without a warrant, because why do we

(42:19):
don't need that? No, because we're the Chicago Police in
nineteen forty six.

Speaker 1 (42:23):
Yeah, and we do whatever we want, apparently to whoever
we want, young or old. We're going to beat the
fuck out of you.

Speaker 2 (42:29):
I was trying to work on something to say to
you about how you are claiming to be part of
the Chicago police.

Speaker 1 (42:36):
Listen, I just woke up too, Okay. In the locker,
they found evidence of William's lifetime habit of thievery fteen
year old lifetime. I mean he's been stealing since maybe
the age of twelve. Yeah. After taking his fingerprints, they
allegedly discovered that they matched those found on Suzanne Degan's
Degnance ransom. Note we'll talk about that later. The authorities

(42:59):
were were determined to prove that William Herrins was the
lipstick killer, so over the next few days they subjected
him to a tortuous interrogation to draw confession out of him.
As he laid recovering from his injuries. They denied him
food and sleep, isolated him from his parents, and prevented
him from seeing an attorney. Also, this is something that
we didn't factor in as much. The flower pot thing

(43:22):
rendered him unconscious, so on top of everything else, he
already has a concussion. Yeah, so we're confused, concussed.

Speaker 2 (43:29):
And we will talk about the next thing held and
further be no start and no sleep, which those two
things alone are gonna like make your mind go creaty.

Speaker 1 (43:40):
Right.

Speaker 2 (43:40):
But then, during one interrogation session, a nurse poured ether
on William's genitals while he was strapped to a hospital bed.

Speaker 1 (43:47):
What is ether? Also? Why the fuck? During another a
police officer repeatedly punched him in the stomach. Officers continuously
chanted details from the Dengnan murder in an effort to
spark recognition in William, an effort to force a fake confession.
I like, okay, so this is obviously this is terrible, right,
And I mentioned this I think towards the end of

(44:11):
last time we recorded this as a parent.

Speaker 2 (44:13):
I that whole place would be set on fire. Absolutely,
that would absolutely not be That nurse would be heavily assaulted. Yes,
so my oldest is fourteen, so that's only you know
what police had just heard her feelings, so it was

(44:34):
only a few years younger than William. I would there
would be nothing left of the police department or the
hospital wing that would be they would own all of it.
I think I would have to be put in a
neighboring jail. Well, there's no fucking way.

Speaker 1 (44:47):
Like, okay, yes, the police are shitty.

Speaker 2 (44:50):
You're not holding my seventeen year old without me in
the room. That's not happening. But also why what like what.

Speaker 1 (44:57):
Did they say to get a nurse to conquer my
is her morals? Can we just assume it's a man? True,
I mean it could have been.

Speaker 2 (45:06):
And if it was a woman, and I know I'm saying,
I would be fighting everybody here in the forties as
a woman, like yeah, William.

Speaker 1 (45:16):
Where's William's dad? Right? Why isn't goal throw some punches
in there, go throw a brick.

Speaker 2 (45:21):
I don't know, or if you're afraid of any mob connections,
like I get, there's a lot of things to consider. Yeah,
I don't think I would be able to consider them.

Speaker 1 (45:31):
No, those things would not exist in my mind because
I am getting my child. It did really hurt my
feelings a few minutes ago. I don't think I'm gonna
get over that. She's just gonna go home and sit
and think about it, just in silence. Okay, anyway, we
can move on from how old my kid is? That's
never mind. Cut all of that. Throughout his ordeal, the

(45:53):
seventeen year old slipped in and out of consciousness due
to paying drugs, is, exhaustion, concussions and concussions. William would
not confess to the murders, which like should be speaking
volumes to these pieces of shit police officers, who don't
you think they would be like, remember what happened last
time we beat the fuck out of somebody? And they
wouldn't confess, right, And then, actually, you know what, at

(46:15):
this at this time, Hector's lossuit probably wasn't even started right,
but still like but he didn't confess and we had
to let him go, right. Two psychiatrists administered sodium pentathal
to William without Warren and without his parents consent, and
they interrogated him for three hours.

Speaker 2 (46:34):
So this is like the truth serum. Yeah, and we're
I don't know what exactly does to make he like
drunk or something. I relaxes.

Speaker 1 (46:46):
Yeah, yeah, like you're maybe like suspend your inhibition to
like so that you just say whatever, you know what
I mean.

Speaker 2 (46:53):
Like, well, under the influence of the drug, authorities claimed
William spoke of an alternate personality named George who had
actually committed the murders. William claimed that he recalled little
of the drug induced interrogation, and when police asked for
George's last name, he told them that he couldn't remember it,
but that it was a quote unquote a murmuring name.

(47:16):
Police translated this to Murman, So George Murman, and the
media later dramatized it to murder Man.

Speaker 1 (47:23):
Yes, because our alter ego has the last name of
murder Man.

Speaker 2 (47:31):
What William actually said is in dispute, as the original
transcript has disappeared.

Speaker 1 (47:36):
Surprise. I'm surprised there even was an original there probably
there probably wasn't it was, there was no they didn't
document shit for this.

Speaker 2 (47:42):
Also, I feel like every time we talk about an
older case that's shitty unsolved, things didn't go the way
that they should or whatever, the media is always like
a problem. Yeah, the issue, Well, I mean they're not
the issues. The police too, but yeah, they heavily contribute though.

Speaker 1 (48:02):
Yeah, like pushing the narrative.

Speaker 2 (48:04):
On his fifth day and custody, William was given a
lumbar puncture without anesthesia. Three that was my back, so sorry,
there was having sympathy pains. Moments later, William was driven
to police headquarters for a polygraph test.

Speaker 1 (48:18):
Why are like how it said torture, it's torture, But again,
how are we getting so many people to just torture
this child in the forties. Was the seventeen year old
really considered a child? They weren't because like, again, he's
been working. I hate all of it. Yeah, so he's.

Speaker 2 (48:36):
Driven to police headquarters, but they tried to administer the test.
It had to be rescheduled for several days later after
they found William wasn't too much pain to cooperate.

Speaker 1 (48:46):
I wonder why, wait, you know what I mean, like,
I wonder why he was in so much pain. Yeah,
it's weird. It's almost like you caused all of the pain,
all of the pain.

Speaker 2 (48:54):
When the polygraph was administered, authorities announced that the results
were inconclusive for sure. On July second, nineteen forty, William
was transferred to the Cook County Jail, where he was
placed in the infirmary to recover. Okay, so somewhere in here,
they're you know, doing all this like tortuous stuff and
then going in and talking to him leaving. I'm picturing

(49:14):
it like prosecutor leaves or you know, investigators leave, and then.

Speaker 1 (49:19):
Yeah, we're not leaving this kid alone to like actually recover.
We're gonna go write. So after the Truth Seram questioning
before the polygraph exam, Somewhere in there, William spoke to
police Captain Michael Ahern with the state's attorney William, I
should look this up.

Speaker 2 (49:36):
Toy too, hoy t u O h y, sure, don't
ask me, he fucking sucks. And a stenographer there. William
offered an indirect confession confirming his claim will under the
truth serum that his alter ego, George Merman might have
been responsible for the crimes, and that George it's William's

(49:58):
middle name and his father their's first name, had given
him all of the stolen things to hide in his
dorm room.

Speaker 1 (50:06):
Do you think he just handed it to himself. That's
why I'm like, I hear other hand, yes, hold this
for me. What the fuck? He's imaginary? Okay?

Speaker 2 (50:14):
But so they're like, okay, you've got an alter ego.
They gave you all of the stolen things that churchuer
sure that tracks Yep, we completely understand. But then they
also went out and looked for George. They questioned William's
friends and family and associates. They were unsuccessful because I
think they made George up.

Speaker 1 (50:35):
Yes George, or they're fucking he was in some sort
of induced psychosis from all of the assault and drugs
like that. They're like, give us the name, and he's
like George, Yeah, if my middle name is George.

Speaker 2 (50:49):
Of like, Psychologists explained that in the same way children
come up with imaginary friends, William invented this personality to
keep his anti social feelings separate from the person who
could be the quote average son and student and date
nice girls and go to church. So they're like trying
to make this case for a split personality thing.

Speaker 1 (51:13):
Okay. While handwriting analysis didn't definitively link William, William's handwriting
to the message that had been written in lipstick during
the murder of Francis Brown, police claimed that his fingerprint
matched a print discovered at the scene. It was first
reported as a bloody smudge on the door jam.

Speaker 2 (51:31):
Also, a fingerprint from the left little finger was also
allegedly connected to William connected William to the ransom note
with nine.

Speaker 1 (51:40):
Points of comparison. William's nine points of comparison that matched
were all loops, and this could also provide a match
to sixty five percent of the population exactly.

Speaker 2 (51:51):
But no, it's him, No, it's sixty five percent of
the population. At the time, William's supporters stressed that the
FBI handbook regarding fingerprint ideentaification required twelve points of comparison
matching to yield a positive identification.

Speaker 1 (52:05):
Yes, and we don't have that. So and also a
bloody smudge. How are we getting a fingerprint out of that? Right?

Speaker 2 (52:12):
We're not on June thirtieth. No, that doesn't make sense.
Maybe that's maybe that day's wrong, doesn't make sense.

Speaker 1 (52:19):
We were in July.

Speaker 2 (52:20):
Well, we're right around We're like July second, so like
somewhere around there. Yeah, okay, my timeline is. Police Captain
Emmett Evans told the newspapers that William had been cleared
of suspicion in the Brown murder as the fingerprints in
the apartment were not his.

Speaker 1 (52:36):
Somebody did their job right. Wow. Twelve days later, Chief
of Detectives Walter Storms alleged that the bloody smudge left
on the door Jiam was Williams. So Walter is the
one with MOP connections because he's doing shitty things. Allegedly. Oh,
I don't know, yes, Walter is, like I'm still probably

(52:56):
not if he was the chief of Detectives in nineteen
forty six. If so, he's like two thousand years. Also,
sorry for we shit talking about your grandpa, but like, hi,
the warrantless please. Searches of William's residence in college dorm
found other items that earned publicity. They found a scrap
book containing pictures of Nazi officials that was stolen when
William burgled a residence on the night that Suzanne was killed.

(53:20):
The scrapbook owner was Harry Gold, and he resided in
the vicinity of the degnant house. So they're saying, like
this scrap book puts William in the area. Yeah, but
also Harry, my friend, why what are we doing? What
do we do? Yeah? Why do you have that in

(53:40):
your possession? Yeah, we need to look into Harry a
little bit more. Okay. Also in William's possession was a
stolen copy of Psychopathia sexualis, a book from eighteen eighty
six by Richard von Kraft Ebbings. It's his famous study
of sexual deviance as doctor's masturbating women in there. Probably

(54:03):
I know, because that wasn't sexually deviant. That was to
cure hysteria, because we're all hysterical. Give us vibrators so
a man can please a woman. No, you still need
a vibrator. Ugh. I don't know why that fact sticks
out in my head. So I was obsessed with it.
I'm not obsessed with it, but for some reason, it's like, well,

(54:26):
just because you know anything with women and sex. Prior
to like last year, police also discovered a stolen medical kit,
but they announced that the medical instruments could not be
linked to the murders. There was no trace of biological
material like blood, skin, or hair. Also, no biological material
of the victims was found on William or any of

(54:47):
his clothes. These medical tools were considered too fine and
small to have been used for dissection, and William said
that he used this medical kit to alter war bonds
that he had stolen. So like that, Yeah, that checks out.
It makes sense things that he was trying to cash. Yeah,
have you seen in the movies? I don't know, I
feel like I have. Can We also go back to

(55:09):
how they were saying, whoever murdered the little girl said
they they had like special skills. Yeah, will he was
a seventeen year old child. He doesn't have special skills,
like he has special burglary skills. He probably can't even
hit the toilet. Still like still, yeah, yeah, cool. He

(55:31):
can sneak into somebody's house, That doesn't mean he knows
how to perfectly dissect somebody. I agree, don't Yeah, you
don't have to yell at me. I'm sorry, I'm frustrated.
I'm not saying he's guilty. I'm just telling the story.

Speaker 2 (55:41):
A cold police positive revolver stolen from a home on
December third, nineteen forty five, was found in William's possession
two nights after this theft, a woman had actually been
shot through her apartment window on accident. On accident, police
used ballistic analysis to match the bullet to that gun. Yeah,
so they were like, that's so we did accidentally shoot somebody.

Speaker 1 (56:04):
He's a burglar and excellent shot somebody. That doesn't mean
he is murdering multiple people.

Speaker 2 (56:10):
I mean, I'm wondering, so they kept that bullet from
you know what.

Speaker 1 (56:15):
I doubt it it was a lady that was shot.
They didn't actually care they I'm just wondering, like, how
hard is it to say this is the bullet the
shot that lady through the window, and also it matches
right this gun. I don't know. And we also talk
about how we don't think the little girl's case is
connected to the two women. So we haven't talked about

(56:36):
that yet at all. Have them we can. I don't
know that I have it in here.

Speaker 2 (56:39):
Really, we talked about a lot last week. I don't
think that it's connected.

Speaker 1 (56:44):
I don't either, like, not even slightly.

Speaker 2 (56:45):
I think that whoever killed the first two women, like
the victims don't it. The victims don't match the the
crime doesn't match.

Speaker 1 (56:55):
There there there did seem to be remorse in the
first ones. The first two like trying to cover it up,
trying to patch up the problem. Like I said before,
that is a far cry from kidnapping, murdering, and dismembering somebody.

Speaker 2 (57:13):
Yes, I agree, And I think that it's way more
likely that suit that the Degnan murder was connected to
the dad.

Speaker 1 (57:21):
Being yeah what was it? Opa? Yeah? Whatever? For the
market black markets. I don't know me thing.

Speaker 2 (57:29):
I think that's way more likely that that's connected somehow.
But I also don't really understand why you would take
someone's kid and then kill her.

Speaker 1 (57:36):
Before you can really even get a ransom.

Speaker 2 (57:40):
Although that other guy's children had been threatened, right, and
maybe you steal the kid and she accidentally dies, right,
and then you have to do something, and you.

Speaker 1 (57:52):
Do the most horrific thing. But I don't think that
the three are connected. I think that the police kind
of cram them together and yeah, yeah, again it goes
and the media labeled it.

Speaker 2 (58:02):
Oh, I labeled it the lipstick killer. Yeah, and that's
just what it's known as. I don't And in every
single article, every article I read, every single thing was
that these three go together. And as I was reading
this and typing it up. I was like, I don't know, man,
Yeah they don't. It doesn't feel like they go together.
I mean not at all the first two.

Speaker 1 (58:23):
Maybe, yeah, even the first two, like because he they
stabbed the lady the first time multiple times. Second time
they shot and stabbed, so like what, I don't know.
It's the escalatians different, like.

Speaker 2 (58:40):
It's I mean, there is escalation, I guess, but I
don't think. I don't think the dignum murder masses. I
think it's more likely somebody did the first two than Okay, fine, yes,
they did the first two together and then they fucking
left town.

Speaker 1 (58:52):
Yeah, I agree. I don't think that the little girl
has anything to do with the two women. Also, nothing
was stolen from any of the crime scenes. And and
your main suspect is a fevery like, it just doesn't
it doesn't matter. It doesn't match. Where was I in
my note? Okay. A witness told police that he had

(59:12):
seen a figure walking toward the Degnen residence with a
shopping bag the night of the murder. The witness described
the man as five foot nine and one hundred and
seventy pounds, they said, probably around thirty five, and wearing
a light colored fedora and a dark overcoat. The witness
said that he couldn't make out the man's face and
could not identify William from a photo. The witness could

(59:34):
not identify William from a photo as the man that
he had seen, like in a photo lineup. Yeah, But a.

Speaker 2 (59:40):
Few days later he identified William as the person that
he saw in a court hearing.

Speaker 1 (59:44):
I wonder how much the cops paid him. Well. Before
the trial, inconsistencies from the original statement had led many
to dismiss this completely. At first. He was like, well,
it was too dark, I couldn't see the man's face.

Speaker 2 (59:59):
But in court he testified that William walked in front
of a car's headlights and so that he was able
to see his face, right, But like.

Speaker 1 (01:00:07):
That's not happened.

Speaker 2 (01:00:08):
William's defense attorneys believed that he was guilty, and their
aim was primarily to spare William from execution. In the electricture,
prosecutor William to Hoy Toy whatever Toy, was uncertain that
he could win a conviction. He's looking at the evidence
and he's like, I don't know, guys.

Speaker 1 (01:00:29):
Because it's all made up. It's all fabricated. Like maybe
that's there's a lot of holes in this story. I
don't know. So he offered a plea deal, and William's
lawyers pressured him to accept the plea deal. It stipulated
that William would serve one life sentence if he confessed
to the murders of Josephine Ross, Francis Brown, and Suzanne Degnan.
With the help of his lawyers, William began drafting a confession,

(01:00:52):
using a Chicago Tribune article as a guide. Fucking imagine
because the media was so heavily involved in this, you know,
more than not more now that I think about it,
more were they were his defense lawyers also being paid
off by the cops to like just say, like, get
this confession could be yeah, because he clearly didn't do it.

(01:01:15):
If you have to give him a newspaper to give
him the information about it, like if he actually did it,
like he would know what the information is, you would
need write.

Speaker 2 (01:01:24):
His I mean, his lawyers could be like, well, William,
you're gonna get fucking executed, so.

Speaker 1 (01:01:29):
Not if you do your jobs right. That just tells
me that you're shitty lawyers, right, You think that they're
just automatically going to lose. Yeah. So he would later
say when he sat down to write this confession that
his lawyers would be like, Okay, now, Bill, is that
really what happened? You know? Are you sure.

Speaker 2 (01:01:46):
When he said something that went against the Tribune article
because he didn't, because he didn't do it.

Speaker 1 (01:01:52):
No. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:01:53):
William and his parents signed the confession, and the parties
agreed to a date of July thirtieth for William to
deliver his official confession. And that day reporters went to
the prosecutor's office. The pressecutor delivered a speech, and I
guess reporters wanted to ask William questions. William appeared like
bewildered and offered noncommittal answers to the reporter's questions. He

(01:02:16):
then refused to confess to Suzanne's murder, and the plea
deal dissolved. And I didn't put it in here. It
was So there's one article where William did an interview
like later on in life, and he said, sitting there
listening to the prosecutor talk about how they're getting truth
and answers, and that's all they care about is the

(01:02:37):
truth and blah blah blah, and saying there in William's like.

Speaker 1 (01:02:40):
This isn't the true. We both know that this is
not the truth. I didn't do this or whatever.

Speaker 2 (01:02:45):
So he kind of, you know, like as a seventeen
year old, was like, fuck you guys, I'm not doing this,
which is understandable. You're still talking about getting a life
sentence at seventeen for something you didn't do, and you're
being forced to do it, and then you have to
sit in front of all these reporters like, hey guys,
this okay.

Speaker 1 (01:03:01):
So plea deal dissolved, but they came up with a
new plea agreement.

Speaker 2 (01:03:06):
They went back to the prosecutor's office and William talked
and answered some questions and they had him re enact
parts of the murders. Police Captain Michael Ahern believed that
William was culpable when he heard how familiar William was with
one of the murder scenes, the apartments. But it's like
he was being fed all the information, you idiot.

Speaker 1 (01:03:27):
Honestly, he may have actually started believing some of it,
because again you got to remember concussed, had the ship
beat out of him, starved no sleep. It really seemed
like he didn't believe any any of it, like he would.
And even with all of that, like he still maintained
like no later say that. You know, he confessed to

(01:03:48):
save his life, right, he maintained his innocence Besides writing
that confession to try to get and Alfred plea. Was
that a thing? I don't know. I just came up
in my mind. I have no clue if it was
like when that started. Well, this is in your state.
You should know. Chicago's not my state. It needs to
be its own state. In his confession, Williams stated that

(01:04:12):
he had thrown the hunting knife used to dismember Suzanne
from a train onto the elevated subway tracks near the
scene of the murder. Police never searched the tracks. Reporters
actually discovered that workers had found a knife on the
tracks that they kept in their Granville station storage room.
There's like, cool knife. We're gonna yeah, We're just gonna
tost this in here.

Speaker 2 (01:04:31):
Reporters claimed that the knife belonged to Guy Roderick, the
owner of the Colt Police positive twenty two caliber gun
found in William's possession on July thirst. Roderick identified the
knife as his.

Speaker 1 (01:04:42):
Can we talk about how the media is doing better?
Police work than the police are. I can't talk.

Speaker 2 (01:04:46):
About how the media might be doing better planning of
evidence than the police are.

Speaker 1 (01:04:51):
That's true. I was just thinking tracking the guy down.
But yeah, yeah, just like the lipstick, because it doesn't match,
it doesn't go. Just also, can you cleanly dismember a
body with just a hunting knife? I wouldn't think so, honestly,
because they said there was no hacking, that it was
like straight like surgical. Yeah, and especially as a seventeen

(01:05:15):
year old kid, No, I don't. I absolutely, I do
not believe that. So on September fifth, after further evidence
was entered into the record and the prosecution defense had
made their closing statements, the judge sentenced William to three
life terms. As William waited to be transferred to the
Statesville Prison Stateville Prison from the Cook County Jail, Sheriff

(01:05:37):
Michael Mulkay Mulcahey.

Speaker 2 (01:05:41):
Sheriff Michael Maulkay asked William whether Suzanne had suffered when
she was killed, and William answered, I can't tell you
if she if she suffered, Sheriff, I didn't kill her.
Tell mister Degnant to please look after his other daughter,
because whoever killed Suzanne is still out there kills me.
Within days of his confession in an open court, William
denied any responsibility for the murders. Mary Jane Blanchard, the

(01:06:04):
daughter of one of the victims, Josephine Ross, was among
the first to believe him, and she said, quote, I
cannot believe that young Heron's murdered my mother. He does
not fit into the picture of my mother's death. I
looked at all of the things Heron stole, and there
was nothing of my mother's things among them. That speaks
volumes too.

Speaker 1 (01:06:23):
Having one of the victim's family come out and be like, no, like,
we don't even believe that he did this. So get better,
please work, please, thank you, please, and thank you. Okay.

Speaker 2 (01:06:35):
So the day before he was sentenced, you know, William
admitted his guilt on burglary and murder charges, and then
that night he actually tried to hang himself in his
cell and like timed it for like shift change of
the prison guards. But he was discovered before he died,
and he later said that he was just like in
such despair.

Speaker 1 (01:06:54):
Yeah, understandably, like what is going on. You're seventeen. Your
entire life has just been turned upside down and now
you do have zero rights like you were in present
for the rest of your life because shitty policework.

Speaker 2 (01:07:10):
Right, all right, let's go over some of the evidence, okay.
William was subjected to an interrogation under the influence of
sodium pentathol, the Truth serum. This drug was administered by
two psychiatrists, one of them was named Roy Grinker, so
under its effects, he allegedly stated that a second person

(01:07:30):
named George Merman committed the murders. This was done, like
I said, without Warren or consent from his parents, And
by the fifties, most scientists had declared the very notion
of truth serums invalid. Most courts had ruled testimony gained
through the.

Speaker 1 (01:07:45):
Use of this was an admissible in court.

Speaker 2 (01:07:50):
William was arrested in nineteen forty six, and the growing
scientific opinion against the truth serum had not yet filtered
down through the courts and police departments. In nineteen fifty two, Grinker,
who administered the test, said that William never implicated himself
in the killings during the interview.

Speaker 1 (01:08:08):
Why didn't we say this sooner? Are we singing? Okay?
Then there's the polygraph.

Speaker 2 (01:08:16):
In nineteen forty six, after William underwent two polygraphic examinations,
the prosecutor declared the results inconclusive.

Speaker 1 (01:08:23):
However, John E. Reid and Fred E Inbao published the
test findings in their nineteen fifty three textbook called Lie
Detection in Criminal Interrogation, which seemed to contradict there was
what the prosecutor said the results were. They wrote, quote,
murder suspect William Arens was questioned about the killing and

(01:08:45):
dismemberment of six year old Suzanne Degnan on the basis
of conventional testing theory. His response on the card test
clearly establishes him as an ancient person. Clearly. Also, can
we talk about how.

Speaker 2 (01:08:58):
They're really only interiored him about Suzanne's death and not
the other two. They're just like, oh yeah, well because
it's a wealthy person, Well.

Speaker 1 (01:09:05):
They were going to pay together, right. I think that
was maybe the one that people were most upset about
because it was a little girl. But the extent of
it all too probably played a huge role, and it
tied more into the meat pegging strike and all of that. Okay, so.

Speaker 2 (01:09:25):
Now we've got other experts saying that shows he's an
IT in person. Why I mean, while I know in
twentyway five, like light detector tests were like, right, that's
not a thing that we use.

Speaker 1 (01:09:33):
But back then it was part of it was like
the gold standard everybody. If you passed that, then you're
free to go.

Speaker 2 (01:09:39):
Well, And so was handwriting analysis back then, where now
it's not really looked out. So for the handwriting, Chicago
police contacted a newspaper artist named Frank sand Hamil to
look at the handwriting samples. Three days after Suzanne's murder.
Hamill told police and the public that he found quote
hidden indianation writing, which is writing impressions from a note

(01:10:03):
written on an overlaying piece of paper, leaving like the impression.
At this news, they the police broke the Walter storms
fuck everybody in his case. They broke the chain of
custody and provided Hamil with the original note for him
to examine directly. Chain of cussy being broken would render

(01:10:23):
this useless in court, although they did still talk about it.
After William was arrested for the Degnan killing, Hammill reported
that this handwriting analysis implicated William. So The FBI previously
issued a report on March twenty second, nineteen forty six,
that they examined the note and declared that there was

(01:10:45):
no indentation writing at all, and Hammill's assertions quote indicated
either a lack of knowledge on his part or a
deliberate attempt to deceive because he's a cartoonist and not
fucking no, he's an expert in cartoon.

Speaker 1 (01:10:58):
In cartoons, it looks so mad. I am so mad
because they're all like, there's it was, somebody's still out
there because they put the wrong person in present. Well,
I mean, realistically, that person's probably dead. The matching fingerprints,
there's suspicion that police planted the print at the Brown
murder scene since it looked like a rolled fingerprint, and
they said that that print matched the one on the

(01:11:20):
ransom note. Both sets of prints have come under you know,
series of questions as to their validity, talking about like
how they collected the prints, possible contamination where they planted. Also,
they originally couldn't find any prints on the ransom note,
and then all of a sudden they have one and
they're like, this is definitely Williams. And they say like
he was the only person to handle the note. But

(01:11:42):
you know, like the dad the police that are initially
that it's in nineteen forty six that no one's wearing glove.
Whatever news outlet got there in time, probably also yes, yeah,
that's true, all right. The confession twenty nine inconsistencies have
been found between the confession and the known facts of
the crime. It has since become the understanding that the

(01:12:03):
nature of these inconsistencies is a clear indicator of false confessions.
You don't say, also factor in being like tortured right
and concussed and starved and sleepless. Some details did seem
to match, like the police theory that Suzanne was dismembered
by a hunting knife, which I'm like, did they think

(01:12:23):
that or did they did? William say I had a
hunting knife and they're like, where's that? That's what you
use forgetting that? Like I feel like it'd be really
hard to cleanly do that. Yeah, I also think so. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:12:37):
So then they say, well, you know, William confessed to
throwing a hunting knife right onto subway tracks. It was
never determined scientifically that it was the dismemberment tool, just
that that's what the police theory was. Because the media
found the knife, right, and it was never investigated and
further and they all.

Speaker 1 (01:12:59):
Passed it around in a circle and put all of
the prints all over it. Yep, no, it was all
William's prints everywhere. Oh that's right, right, Oops, too far so.
Soon after William was arrested, his parents and younger brother
changed their last name to Hill, and his parents divorced.
After his conviction, William was first housed at Stateville Prison
in Joliet, Illinois, and he learned several trades, including electronics

(01:13:21):
and television and radio repair, and at one point he
had his own repair shop. Before a college education was
available to prison inmates, William on February sixth, nineteen seventy two,
became the first prisoner in Illinois history to earn a
four year college degree, receiving a bachelor's Bachelor of Arts degree,
earning two hundred and fifty course credits by funding the

(01:13:44):
cost of correspondence courses with twenty different universities. From his savings,
he passed several courses like languages, analytical geometry, data processing,
and tailoring, but he was forbidden by authorities to take
classes in physics, chemistry, or celestial navigy. I still don't
get that, but like you cannot look at the start.
Maybe because he's locked up inside all day every day,

(01:14:07):
like you would have to go outside to let you
go look at the stars. Maybe I don't know. They're like,
we don't want you to build a rocket. I don't know.

Speaker 2 (01:14:15):
He managed a garment factory at Stateville for five years,
overseeing three hundred and fifty inmates, and after transferred to
Vienna Correctional Center, he set up their entire educational program
and aided other prisoner's educational progress by helping them earn
their ged. He became like a jailhouse lawyer of sorts,
helping other prisoners with their appeals.

Speaker 1 (01:14:36):
So he just went on and still was a really
good person. Like I think he's like, I'm going to
take this time to to help and he doesn't have to,
you know, he could just go and sit there and
do you absolutely nothing, but he still wanted to be
productive and help people. William was given an institutional parole
for Suzanne's murder in nineteen sixty five, and in nineteen

(01:14:59):
sixty six he was discharged on that case and began
serving his second life sentence. Although not freed, parle policies
of the day meant that he was considered rehabilitated by
prison authorities, and that the Degnan murdered case could no
longer legally be put forward as a reason to deny
a parole. Based on regulations of nineteen forty six, William

(01:15:19):
should have been discharged from the Brown murder in nineteen
seventy five and from all remaining charges in nineteen eighty three,
but in nineteen seventy three the focus moved from rehabilitation
to punishment and deterrence, which blocked moves to release William.
In nineteen eighty three, the Seventh District US Court of
Appeals ruled that it was unconstitutional to refuse parole on

(01:15:41):
deterrence grounds to inmates convicted before nineteen seventy three. Magistrate
Jared Kohne ordered Illinois to release William immediately. The brother
and sister of Suzanne Degnan went public, pleading with authorities
to fight the ruling. Attorney General Neil Hartigan stated, only
God in Heron's knows how many other women he murdered.

(01:16:04):
Now a bleeding heart do good or decides that Heron's
is rehabilitated and should go free. I'm going to make
sure that kill crazy animals stays where he is with
supportive prominent politicians. The court ordered the release of William
to be reversed. That's so heartbreaking because he's he didn't

(01:16:24):
do it to begin with. His entire life has been
taken away. He's still doing good things and helping others
and being a productive person, and that, like I get.
I get the siblings, like, because I'm sure they grew
up like being told like no that, and you know,
I'm sure they didn't really know the ins and outs
in the facts of all of the case and everything,
so like I understand why they would be like, no, please,

(01:16:46):
don't do this. But like this Attorney general kiss ass
who's like, oh no, Like look at half a second
in his file and you'll realize, like he didn't do this.
I feel like I've covered other cases of serial killers
or whoever who got out like with less time and
less right whatever, and it's every time we're like, how

(01:17:09):
the fuck did that happen? And it's like, well, because
they looked at it through, like what is exactly legal
versus making decisions based on feelings, right, which I agree,
Like the siblings have every right to feel however they
feel and all that, But the politicians and like the
court system for them to just be well, we're going

(01:17:30):
to go off feelings instead of what legally should be
it's happening like take half a second to peak and
what actually how like how his plea actually came about,
and like then it's should be obvious, and I think
it's not. I do think.

Speaker 2 (01:17:47):
I think that a lot of people in like the
general consensus probably of these times is like, you wouldn't
confess to something you.

Speaker 1 (01:17:55):
Didn't do, no matter what.

Speaker 2 (01:17:57):
Yeah, so that's also there looking at it, like he
confessed he should never be led out of jail.

Speaker 1 (01:18:04):
I think like, yeah, So if they would have succeeded
with Hector, I think was the other guy, right, then
William would not never have gone to prison in the
first place because they would have gotten their quote unquote
bad guy and then just swept the rest under the rug. Right.
But they weren't able to break him, so then they
had to break a child to get a false confession, right.

(01:18:27):
I think it was the guy that was in Arizona.
I would believe that more than William, at least for
Suzanne's murder. I don't know about the other two. I
don't think they're connected. I think there are two murderers
that got away with it because they penned all on
this kid. Right. In nineteen seventy five, William was transferred
to the minimum security Vienna Correctional Center in Vienna, Illinois,

(01:18:50):
and in nineteen ninety eight, upon his request to the
Dixon Correctional Center minimum security prison.

Speaker 2 (01:18:55):
Like he was moved there. I don't know, I just
worded it, I weirdly like that. Also, you're saying he's
so dangerous he can't be released from jail, but then
we're moving him to minimum security. Come on, he's so dangerous,
we let him run our three hundred employee clothing whatever. Right,
it's not like he's in solitary anything, or we let

(01:19:17):
him have his own computer or TV repair shop. There
were no reports of him having any infractions anything at all.
So he's moved to Dixon, Illinois, and he eventually.

Speaker 1 (01:19:31):
Resided in the hospital ward. He suffered from.

Speaker 2 (01:19:34):
Diabetes, which left his legs really swollen and limited his
eyesight and he had to use a wheelchair. But even still,
he continued with his efforts to win clemency. In two
thousand and two, Laurence C. Marshall filed a petition on
William's behalf seeking clemency, but the appeal was eventually denied.
William's most recent parole hearing was July twenty sixth, two

(01:19:56):
thousand and seven. The Illinois Prisoner Review Board decision decision
was a fourteen to zero vote against parole. This was
reflected by a board member named Thomas Johnson, who stated, quote,
God will forgive you, but the state won't fuck you.
And you're fucking in Thomas. That was in two thousand

(01:20:16):
and seven, so I'm thinking you're still alive, and I
would also like to publicly say fuck right off. Yes,
supported the parole did decide to revisit the issue once
a year from then on, but I didn't see anything
that they did, Like I don't know if like William
had to file something for them to look at it
or something. But after being taken to the University of

(01:20:38):
Illinois Medical Center on February twenty six, twenty twelve, due
to complications from his diabetes, William Herrons died on March fifth,
twenty twelve, at.

Speaker 1 (01:20:47):
The age of eighty three. Insanity to me because he
went on at seventeen, yeah, and it's never got all
and to live until eighty three. He was failed all around.
These the victims were failed all around, because the families
were failed because again less pennant on somebody than rather
than actually put any effort into finding the real killer killers.

(01:21:11):
Because again I don't think that they're connected. No, I
don't either. Yeah, and that's my extra shitty case that
Sarah had to listen to twice twice. I swear to
God if this is not on here, if something happened, Sorry, guys,
the podcast is over. I've done.

Speaker 2 (01:21:27):
My sources were an article from All That's Interesting by
Katie serena Chicago Maroon or newspaper I don't know, by
Christina Pillsbury. The Crime Library had a big section by
Joseph Garringer. Wikipedia obviously has a page for this, and
the inflation calculator very nice, the real og.

Speaker 1 (01:21:49):
Yeah, I can't. I still can't. I've listened to a
twice not I still cannot wrack my brain around how
they got away with framing this child.

Speaker 2 (01:22:00):
I think, well, because last week you brought up the
mob and I hadn't really considered it for once, But
it makes sense for Suzanne, for Suzanne's murder, that maybe
there's a connection there, and that's maybe why they were
forced to like try to mesh.

Speaker 1 (01:22:15):
With the other two with the other two, but still,
like there's no justification or explanation for just how shoddy
of a job they did. No, And it's not like
William is the only one saying this is what happened
to me. You have Hector, who filed successfully, yeah, won
a lawsuit against the Chicago police for being tortured. In

(01:22:36):
the questioning of this case, I wonder if William also
being tortured helped Hector win, because again it could have.

Speaker 2 (01:22:43):
Yeah, but then why well, because they're saying that he
can fess or whatever. So I don't Yeah, but maybe
because you don't that lawsuit didn't happen right away, right exactly.

Speaker 1 (01:22:51):
I don't know. It's just it's it's infuriating because it's
technically unsolved cases, three unsold cases that were just penned
on somebody because we they should be open unsolved, yes,
but they're not. It's like somebody still needs to look
back into It was crazy to me that I couldn't

(01:23:14):
find anywhere else that was like, there's no way these
are connected. Yeah, that's because police connected them through the
fingerprints and the fake ones. Yeah, the handwriting by the cartoonist,
you know what I mean, Like, not the FBI. We're
not gonna believe the FBI. We're gonna believe the cartoonist.

Speaker 2 (01:23:32):
Not you know, honestly, for the time, it's not surprising
that people wouldn't believe the FBI.

Speaker 1 (01:23:37):
Yeah, that's true. So that's my case for this for
last week. In this week, Hi, hello, ye.

Speaker 2 (01:23:45):
We already plugged our socials. I will say, please wash
your water bottle. Yes, someday it doesn't get picked up.
Sarah just popped her shoulder. Yeah, I guess that's all
we have for this week. Thanks for listening. Bye, hey bye,