March 31, 2025 • 34 mins
Segment 1 with Dr. Abbie Maroño starts at 0.00.
A lot of small business owners feel shame when their company fails because they link who they are so much with their business. This is compounded when they lose money from people they know. What do we do with this shame?
Dr. Abbie Maroño has a new book called "Work in Progress: The Road to Empowerment, The Journey Through Shame" which offers a fresh perspective on the often-overlooked role of shame in personal growth.
Segment 2 with Charles Heckler starts at 15:50.
It seems that the current President wants to change the US policy and open up trade again with Russia. One of his goals is to encourage American businesses to begin again in Russia. Would they be interested or are they ready?
Charles Hecker has spent forty years working in the Soviet Union and Russia. He has worked as a journalist at The Miami Herald and The Moscow Times, and as a geopolitical risk consultant at Control Risks, where he was a partner in the firm. He is also the author of "Zero Sum": The Arc of International Business in Russia", which is out now from Oxford University Press.
Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/the-small-business-radio-show--3306444/support.
A lot of small business owners feel shame when their company fails because they link who they are so much with their business. This is compounded when they lose money from people they know. What do we do with this shame?
Dr. Abbie Maroño has a new book called "Work in Progress: The Road to Empowerment, The Journey Through Shame" which offers a fresh perspective on the often-overlooked role of shame in personal growth.
Segment 2 with Charles Heckler starts at 15:50.
It seems that the current President wants to change the US policy and open up trade again with Russia. One of his goals is to encourage American businesses to begin again in Russia. Would they be interested or are they ready?
Charles Hecker has spent forty years working in the Soviet Union and Russia. He has worked as a journalist at The Miami Herald and The Moscow Times, and as a geopolitical risk consultant at Control Risks, where he was a partner in the firm. He is also the author of "Zero Sum": The Arc of International Business in Russia", which is out now from Oxford University Press.
Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/the-small-business-radio-show--3306444/support.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:04):
Get ready for all the craziness of small business. It's
exactly that craziness that makes it exciting and totally unbelievable.
Small Business Radio is now on the air with your
host Barry Moultz.
Speaker 2 (00:18):
Well, thanks for joining this week's radio show. Remember this
is the final word in small business for those keeping track,
This is now show number.
Speaker 3 (00:27):
Eight hundred and twenty seven.
Speaker 2 (00:29):
Well, a lot of small business owners feel shame when
their company fails because they link who they are so
much with their business. They may also have lost some
other people's money. What do you do with this shame?
My first guest is doctor Abby Marano, who has a
new book called Work in Progress, The Road to Empowerment.
Speaker 3 (00:50):
The Journey through.
Speaker 2 (00:51):
Shame offers a fresh perspective on the often overlook role
of shame in personal growth.
Speaker 3 (00:58):
Abby, welcome to the show.
Speaker 4 (01:00):
Thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 2 (01:02):
Give me the correct pronunciation of your last name, Marana. Okay, good,
you say it better than I do. So there's a
lot of shame around people that fail in small business.
Speaker 3 (01:16):
Why is that?
Speaker 2 (01:16):
Is this this close connection with who they are with
their business?
Speaker 5 (01:21):
Yeah, Well, shame comes from a sense of self, so
we tend to feel shame when we have behaved in
a way that is misaligned with who we think we
are or who we want to be. So if I
have behaved in a way, say I see myself as
a loyal person and then I cheat, that causes shame
(01:41):
because it's out of the character of who I either
want to be or see myself. Or say I have
religious views and I go against them, again, that causes shame.
Now with small businesses, say you want to be successful.
You see yourself as an entrepreneur, You see yourself as
someone who can get it done, you can do.
Speaker 4 (01:59):
It, and you fail.
Speaker 5 (02:01):
You see that as now, okay, well I'm a failure.
And the problem is when it comes to shame, there's
two types. There's toxic and there's healthy shame. And we
don't always recognize that there's a difference. But the difference
is healthy shame is a recognition that we all make mistakes. Right,
(02:21):
you know, good people do good things and bad things.
Bad people do bad things and good things. But toxic
shame is where we aligned say I did a bad
thing or a bad thing happened. Therefore, instead of it
being about the behavior, we make it about the self.
So I did a bad thing, therefore I am bad
(02:42):
or I failed, therefore I'm a failure. So toxic shame
is when we make that emotion self directed instead of
behavior directed. And I see this a lot, especially in
young entrepreneurs, where they go get an attitude. They see
thee is someone who's about to take on the world,
(03:02):
and they don't, and instead of recognizing, okay, this is
a part of the process, they direct that shame towards
the self and say, Okay, now I'm a failure.
Speaker 3 (03:14):
I want to go back to your definition.
Speaker 2 (03:15):
You said that you have shame when when something happens
beyond what you are, out of line what you think
you are, what you want to be. But a lot
of times in small business, our failures are not necessarily
in our control right and we feel them anyways. Is
does failure have a what role does the shame play
(03:39):
in getting us back to a place where we can
try again, or does it have a place at all.
Speaker 5 (03:46):
Yeah, that's a great question, because shame really is a signal.
When you feel shame, It's very different to other emotions
because it's self directed. So for shame to be felt,
it means I feel or that in myself there's a flaw.
It's not guilt. It's not I've done something and I
feel guilty, but it doesn't reflect who I am as
(04:07):
a person. That shame is only felt when it really
is reflective of the self. So if I've failed and
I'm feeling shame, then I'm associating that failure with who
I am, and that can really diminish self worth. So
I do see this a lot, and I think much
(04:28):
of it is because of social media.
Speaker 4 (04:31):
And this is where we can kind.
Speaker 5 (04:33):
Of not cure it, but get a better idea of
what's realistic. Because say you're starting a new business and
you have this idea of success. If you look on
social media or LinkedIn or any especially Instagram, you see
everybody with their flashy cars.
Speaker 4 (04:54):
Is what it needs to be successful?
Speaker 5 (04:55):
Yet and now if that's your idea of what success
should look like, okay, So if I want to be
an entrepreneur or a businessman, that's what it should look like,
because that's what social media is telling me. If I
feel that that's what I should be doing, but I'm
not because I had a failure, Now I look at
(05:15):
myself and go, I'm not meeting those standards. Therefore there's
something wrong with me and my abilities. And we really
need to recognize, especially with social media, that it's picked
to perfect right, it's artificial, and we hold ourselves to
these artificial standards, and we have to recognize when we
(05:39):
are moving the shame from the behavior to this self.
If we're feeling like a failure because we didn't do
something or we did something wrong.
Speaker 2 (05:48):
Yeah, I think it really is fed by two things.
First of all, that not get rich quick, but the
tremendous amount of success that a lot of entrepreneurs had
in the late nineties. The Mark Zuckerberg's The Bill Gates
is that Steve Jobs, we think we're going to be
the next Steve Jobs. We think we're gonna be the
next Bill Gates. And guess what, You're not going to
be right, because these are one in a billion kind
(06:10):
of people. And I think that there is a lot
of shame that goes along with well, I want to
brag how well I'm doing on social media, and if
I'm not there, I feel guilt, right, I feel embarrassment.
But for me, I think the interesting part is small
business owners always feel, and I think especially true for men,
that they are their business right, and somewhere along line,
(06:34):
we have to realize that we are not our businesses,
whether it's successful or not.
Speaker 5 (06:40):
Yeah, that is such an important point because again when
I said about that definition of shame is it's that
sense of worthlessness in this self if you are not
able to move yourself out of the business because businesses fail,
and it might have absolutely nothing.
Speaker 4 (07:00):
To do with you.
Speaker 5 (07:00):
It could be the economy, it could be because of
social issues, political issues. Sometimes great ideas just don't work or.
Speaker 2 (07:09):
Work now, or they don't work now right, They may
work later, it may just be the wrong.
Speaker 4 (07:14):
Time, yes, exactly.
Speaker 5 (07:16):
And sometimes they could flourish and then something changes and
the business goes down. And if you're not able to
remove yourself from that, you are absolutely going to feel
shame when the business isn't one hundred percent perfect because
you're unable to move your sense of self worth from
the company's worth.
Speaker 4 (07:37):
Right.
Speaker 2 (07:37):
And also we attach, especially in America, self worth to
financial achievement, right, especially for men, And if you financially succeed,
then there's more self worth, and if you financially fail, you.
Speaker 3 (07:50):
Will have less self worth.
Speaker 2 (07:51):
So let's say I'm feeling shame because Abby somewhere along
the line your business career, you're gonna feel shamed somewhere
along the line. It's just really inevitable. How do you
navigate those feelings of shame.
Speaker 5 (08:03):
Well, the first thing to do really is identify the
emotion and face it, because we so commonly look for
an escape. So when we feel that shame, because it
is so personal, we look for things to distract ourselves
against it.
Speaker 4 (08:21):
So maybe I.
Speaker 5 (08:22):
Overwork because then I have no time to sit with
my feelings. Maybe I get into a bad relationship because
then I don't have to be with myself and be
alone with my thoughts. Maybe I go to food, Maybe
I overwork, and exercise over exercise. All these things are
an escape from that emotion. And we have to remember
that our shame is telling us something. And if you're
(08:43):
feeling shame instead of disappointment because of an issue with
your business, then it's telling you you need to pull
your self worth out of that business and find something
in yourself to make you feel valued. And that's a
really difficult thing to do because a lot of the time,
the reason we attach ourselves to success is because of
(09:05):
low self esteem, because we're running from things because that
shame might be deep seated.
Speaker 4 (09:10):
Maybe we didn't.
Speaker 5 (09:12):
Get the reassurance and love that we needed as children,
so we look for that in accomplishments. So sitting with
that shame is very uncomfortable. So that is the first
thing to do when it's felt. Don't use things to
escape it. You have to actually face it and figure
out why am I feeling shame when a different behavior
(09:37):
and business directed emotions should be felt because it shouldn't
be directed it the self.
Speaker 2 (09:42):
Yeah, you know, you hit on something that I tried
to do over my forty year career of running businesses
that I try not to frame a shame but more
as disappointment.
Speaker 3 (09:50):
Right. I then try to have a pity party for myself.
Speaker 2 (09:53):
For twenty four hours, right, feel real good, sorry, cheer
the darkness whatever it is. And then after twenty four hours,
I try to take another action so I can move
myself to a different place, a place away from the disappointment.
Speaker 5 (10:07):
It's funny you say that because I have a forty
eight hour rule on everything, because it's not helpful to
suppress and avoid our emotions.
Speaker 4 (10:16):
It just isn't. We really need to face them and
process them.
Speaker 5 (10:20):
But we also don't want to dwell because we can
keep ourselves in really negative cycles. So we need to
find this balance. So I say, whenever things are really
difficult and you do feel overwhelmed by your emotions, let
yourself be overwhelmed for forty eight hours.
Speaker 4 (10:38):
Be overwhelmed for forty eight hours.
Speaker 5 (10:39):
If you need to eat bad, lay in bed, do it,
feel it, let it in. But beyond that point, dwelling
on it isn't productive anymore, and you have to just
get up and keep going. And there is no secret
recipe other than just put one foot in front of
the other and just get on with it and do.
Speaker 2 (10:56):
Something different, get yourself into a different place, even if
you have to volun here with friends or causes or
whatever you talk about in the book. The scientific basis
for the connection between shame and empowerment, what is that?
Speaker 5 (11:09):
Well, we tend to think of shame as the antithesis
of empowerment, that to be empowered, you have to be
shame free. And that is an impossible standard because human
beings will always have shame. It's just the way the
brain works. We can't always control our emotional triggers. And
shame exists for a reason because it is that sense
(11:30):
of failing of the self. What it means is when
I feel shame, I have done something that goes against
who I want to be or who I am.
Speaker 4 (11:40):
So it's a signal.
Speaker 5 (11:41):
It's telling me, hey, you're doing something that really doesn't
align with what you want and who you are. If
something needs to change, and when we're able to sit
with those uncomfortable and difficult emotions, face them and say, Okay,
why am I doing this? Why am I feeling this?
And say you're feeling shame for a failure in your business.
(12:04):
There's an answer in there, because why am I feeling it?
And then you might unravel while I'm tying my self
worth to my accomplishments.
Speaker 4 (12:11):
Okay, let's dig it a bit deeper.
Speaker 5 (12:13):
Why am I doing? Why am I lacking in myself?
And when we dig deep into why shame has felt,
we uncover answers that help us grow and change. And
that's empowering and shame.
Speaker 4 (12:28):
Because it is so.
Speaker 5 (12:30):
Negative towards the self, people can use it against you.
If you're feeling shamed for things. If someone brings it up, yes, yes,
and say you know a business partner or a competitor,
if you feel shame for something, you almost want to
bury that thing, and they can use it against you.
Speaker 4 (12:51):
And that's why my definition of empowerment is you can't
use me against me.
Speaker 5 (12:56):
Doesn't mean I think I'm flawless, doesn't mean I think
I think I make no mistakes. What it means is
I'm comfortable sitting with my shame. I'm comfortable facing the
fact that I am flawed and I am working towards change,
and I understand my behavior. So when you reflect my
behavior and my characteristics to me, I don't feel shame
(13:18):
for them.
Speaker 4 (13:19):
And that's really empowering.
Speaker 2 (13:21):
So the last question I want to ask you, what
advice would you have for a small business owner who
invests a lot of time and energy and their business
goes out of business and clearly now they say, you know,
I made some wrong decisions, I invest in the wrong things,
and they feel shame and their spouse is using that
against them. How they how they how do they move
past that?
Speaker 5 (13:42):
Well that the spouse It adds a real difficult layer
because we look for people who are support systems to
help us work through our shame. So those situations are
really horrible, but you have to stand true and strong
in your sense of self, stay away from social media,
(14:03):
and recognize that more lessons are in our failures than
our successes.
Speaker 4 (14:09):
You learn so much more.
Speaker 5 (14:11):
I've learned more in every failure than I have in
every achievement because now when I step forward, I'm going
to avoid making those mistakes again. So don't see failure
as you failing. It's just another step towards success. It's
an absolutely necessary step towards success. And anyone that makes
you feel shamed for that doesn't really deserve to be
(14:35):
a part of that. And it can be a really
difficult thing when that's coming from the home. So having
that difficult conversation of you're making me feel shameful for this, why,
and really having an open conversation, and.
Speaker 2 (14:50):
Also having a plan to move forward because unfortunately, unless
they invented time machine, we can't go back.
Speaker 3 (14:56):
Right exactly, go forward happy.
Speaker 2 (14:58):
I appreciate you on the show, so tell us again
the title of the book and where people can catch
up with you.
Speaker 5 (15:03):
The title is Work in Progress, The Road to Empowerment,
the Journey through Shame. You can find the book on
Amazon and all major bookstores, and you can find me
on my website Abbimorono dot com or doctor abbyofficial dot
com and that's doctor as in dr and I think
(15:25):
dr Abby Offisher Instagram and LinkedIn also.
Speaker 3 (15:28):
Abby, thanks so much the Small Business radio show. We'll
be right back.
Speaker 6 (15:32):
Do you still have great expectations for the great recession?
Barry can show you how to let go of failure
and bounce to get ready for that next great success.
Go to www dot Berrymolts dot com. Barry will show
you how to get crazy and achieve your business success.
Speaker 1 (15:53):
Stick around to get your small business unstuck. More of
Small Business Radio with Barry moles.
Speaker 4 (16:00):
Well.
Speaker 2 (16:00):
It seems with recent news that Trump wants to change
the US policy and make nice with Russia. One of
his goals is to encourage American business to do more
business in Russia. The question is small business interested in
that and are they ready to go? My guest is
Charles Hecker, who has spent forty years working in the
(16:20):
Soviet Union in Russia. He's worked as a journalist at
the Miami Herald in the Moscow Times, as a geopolitical
risk consultant at Control Risks, where he was a partner
in the firm. He's also the author of Zero sum
the Art of International Business in Russia, which is out
by the Oxford University Press.
Speaker 3 (16:37):
Charles, Welcome to the show.
Speaker 7 (16:39):
Erry, thank you. It's a pleasure to be here.
Speaker 3 (16:41):
So we read a lot of stuff.
Speaker 2 (16:43):
You know, again, things might have changed since this broadcast
when this broadcast comes out. But what's the current and
federal administrations thinking now about Russia and.
Speaker 4 (16:53):
Business which the person's writing it.
Speaker 7 (16:55):
I mean, those sounds coming out of Washington change almost
every day.
Speaker 3 (17:00):
Are we on tariffs? So we're not on tariffs. I'm confused.
Speaker 7 (17:03):
Everybody's confused. Welcome to the club. So just this morning,
we had a tweet from President Trump saying that he
wants to add additional sanctions and additional tariffs on Russia.
And so this was the very first time we've heard
President Trump using the stick, you know, in the carrot
(17:25):
and stick equation. In previous negotiations with Russia, President Trump
has used only carrots, and he's given away quite a
lot of negotiating cards in his conversations with President Putin
and in the negotiations taking place below that level. Today
(17:47):
he says, you know, in a one to eighty in
his opinion, he wants to sanction Russia. So, first of all,
it's extremely difficult keeping up with what's going on between
Washington and Moscow, or with Washington and anything, you know,
But Moscow is one thing. I mean, you know, what
about Canada, what about Mexico, what about China. You know,
(18:10):
there's a lot of countries to add into this mix,
and an awful lot of confusing and mixed signals. But
you know, if you take a step back, which you
sometimes have to do to get a little bit of
perspective on all of this, I think the overall direction
of travel between the United States and Russia is towards
(18:31):
re engagement. And that was sort of the overriding message
that came out of the Putin Trump phone call, and
then also the negotiations between US Secretary of State Marco
Rubio and Russian Foreign Minister Sergey Lvov in Riad. I
guess that's just a couple of weeks ago. Now, the
sort of the mood music coming out of those events
(18:56):
was that the US wants to do business with Russia.
Speaker 2 (18:59):
Again, right, because for three years we thought that Russia
star of the war, and now we realize Ukraine did
as sarcastically as I say, Yeah, So things shifted. But
let's go back to the capitalism, right, I mean, what
is the I guess the story of capitalism inside Russia?
And is there some unique quality it happened?
Speaker 4 (19:18):
Has those small things right off there?
Speaker 1 (19:22):
Yeah?
Speaker 7 (19:23):
I mean, if we sort of quickly try to go
over you know, the past thirty years of Western investment
in Russia. Capitalism came to Russia essentially in nineteen ninety one,
and it came to a Russia that wasn't really ready
for it. And so what.
Speaker 3 (19:40):
Does that mean?
Speaker 2 (19:41):
What does that mean Charles wasn't ready for because they
had been oh go ahead.
Speaker 3 (19:45):
Well thanks.
Speaker 7 (19:45):
I mean, so that was you know, following the collapse
of the Soviet Union. You know, the country, the Soviet
Union was led by a centrally planned five year plan
that you know, every five years said this is how
much we're going to make, and how much we're going
to sell, and how much we're going to produce, and
(20:06):
how much everyone's going to buy. It was a rigidly,
rigidly centrally controlled and centrally planned economy. And the Soviet
Union went away and the five year planning system went away,
and in its absence you had an absolute vacuum I
(20:28):
mean really, the country politically and economically was rudderless. And
you know, Russia had very few people who you could
actually call as capitalists or as business people. And you know,
the West came calling because Russia was an emerging market.
(20:49):
This was at a time of massive and rapid globalization,
and Russia very quickly became flavor of the month for
Western investors. But on the ground in Russia, there was
no economic infrastructure to sort of welcome this influx of
foreign investment. So things got off to a bad start
(21:09):
with capitalism in Russia.
Speaker 3 (21:11):
Example, give us some examples, chars of what happened.
Speaker 7 (21:14):
Well, I mean, first of all, I mean one of
the very practical examples was Russia had no working banking
system to speak of, which is a problem. That's a problem, right.
You know. You know, when I think when I first
moved to Moscow in nineteen ninety four, I might be
exaggerating a little bit, but there were maybe I don't know,
(21:34):
a half a dozen ATMs in Russia in Moscow. And
you know, Moscow is a city with a population now
of probably something like twelve million people.
Speaker 3 (21:44):
Wow.
Speaker 7 (21:45):
And even in the nineteen nineties, you know, Moscow was
a capital city. It had you know, maybe back then
nine ten eleven million population, and you know, there was
basically a small handful of ATMs where you could literally
withdraw cash. So there's that, and then really just a
financial services infrastructure where there were banks that you know,
(22:08):
there were no credit cards, there was no mortgages, there
was no you know nothing, and companies, the Western companies
that were doing business in Russia in the early days
had to come into the country literally with suitcases full
of cash to get business done. They came from all
over the world with suitcases packed full of dollars. The
(22:31):
rule was worthless. It was hard to get foreign currency
in Moscow. But you know, there were bills to pay,
and there were deals to be done, and you had salaries,
and you had rent and you had electricity. As international
businesses with rep offices representative offices in Moscow, you had
bills to pay. And people would land at the airport
(22:52):
quite literally with suitcases stuff full of cash. So those
are some examples of what it was like trying to
do business in the early days. You know, to fast forward, Moscow,
you know, fairly quickly became a reasonably sophisticated global financial center.
You know, not on the level of New York and
London or Frankfurt, but Russia had, up until sanctions, until
(23:14):
the full scale invasion of Ukraine, you know, Russia had
a sophisticated group of large banks with international footprints, you know.
And it also caught up very quickly because it was
able to take advantage of all of the tech and
all of the work that was done by the West
before it. So you know, now you can get a
mortgage on your mobile phone, and you know, you can
(23:38):
tap your way into the metro, and you know, all
of the things that we're accustomed to. You can pay
all of your electricity bills online. You know, all the
mod cons that we're accustomed to in the West. You know,
that all became a part of Russia.
Speaker 2 (23:52):
Charles, is that in the last decade, the last five years,
last twenty years, you know.
Speaker 7 (23:57):
I would say starting in the two thousands, okay, so
last twenty years. Yeah. And you know the other thing
that happened is that Russian students and Russian business people
were coming to London and the US and getting MBAs
and they were learning, you know, the most sophisticated ways
(24:17):
to manage businesses and so and also they were growing up,
if you will, they were sort of growing up inside
international companies. You know, it was it was a prestige
job for a Russian person to get a you know,
to get a job inside an international company. And that
was sort of like going to business school in a way.
I mean, if you were, you know, a young Russian
(24:39):
student and you graduated and you got a job at
PwC or ey or Deloitte, KPMG, all of those places,
you know, you were learning how international companies worked. And
so that sort of snowball, you know, kept rolling and
increasing in size. And Russia had a smart well edge
(25:00):
cadd a group of business people. It had businesses that
were aspiring to perform and in some cases performing to
international standards. It had companies listed on the London Stock
Exchange and the New York Stock Exchange. So you know,
capitalism came to Russia, but it came very slowly. It
(25:20):
was pretty bumpy. And then, you know, before the war,
people were saying that Russia was a complicated place, but
a place where you could get deals done.
Speaker 2 (25:34):
So charge let me pause you there, like right before
the war three years ago, was capitalism different than we
understand capitalism in the United States? Is it different in Russia?
Are things you know, done differently? I mean a note,
you know, when Trump first got into office, he said,
we're no longer enforced the law that you can't bribe
you know, foreign leaders or business people or whatever.
Speaker 3 (25:56):
It is, right, is I mean, I'm.
Speaker 2 (25:59):
Sure lot of bribing goes on in the United States,
but it seems like in other countries there's more. Is
when we think of capitalism three years ago in Russia,
is it different than capitalism here?
Speaker 7 (26:10):
So I think there are some features that are a
little bit different. And you know, capitalism is different in
every country and in every sector, and you know, depending
on every CEO and every board of directors.
Speaker 3 (26:24):
Absolutely, And I think here's.
Speaker 7 (26:27):
Something that lingers in my mind from sort of having
seen the Russian economy grow up over the past thirty years,
and how capitalism is a little bit different. You know,
under the five year Plan during the Soviet period, the
only way to make that plan work, to make this
(26:49):
sort of rigid socialist economy work, the only way to
get things done was to was to invent shortcuts. And
so people who were running factories in the Soviet Union,
you know, they knew they had their five year plan,
but they knew it was sort of probably not worth
the paper that it was written on, and they did
what they can to work around it. When capitalism came
(27:11):
to Russia, it was, to my mind, and you know,
I feel quite strongly about this, it was just another
new system that came to Russia, right, And I think
for a very long time, and this has evolved and
it has changed, but I think for a very long time,
the Russian attitude was, Okay, first we had the five
(27:33):
year plan. Now we have this thing called capitalism. What
are the shortcuts? You know, what are the workarounds? How
do we you know, this is a complicated new system.
What is this market?
Speaker 3 (27:44):
Uh?
Speaker 7 (27:44):
And you know, how do we work around it?
Speaker 6 (27:48):
And you know some.
Speaker 2 (27:49):
Instruct when you say work around it to keep doing
business the same way we've been doing business before.
Speaker 7 (27:55):
No, but to say that there's a new we're on
a new playing field. Now the rules are different, the
rules are complicated, we're not that familiar with them. And
you know, what kind of shortcuts can we make around
these rules? You know, the attitude, the mentality in a
way was the same, and that is, you know, we're
(28:15):
working with a system we're working at a framework. First
it was socialist, now it's capitalists. And you know, frankly,
we have all these rules, let's see what we can
do to shortcut them. And I think that that was
you know, there was there was a memorandum from the
Russian the Moscow Embassy, the American Embassy in Moscow that
(28:40):
was sent back to the State Department in nineteen ninety four,
and that memorandum was recently, just a couple of months ago, declassified.
And what the embassy analyst, the US embassy analyst sitting
in Moscow said was that American policy, economic policy towards
Russia in the nineteen nineties was trying to sort of
(29:04):
jam a capitalist square peg into a Russian round hole.
And the fit was really bad. And so, you know,
I think with hindsight we can see that very clearly.
There was a very clever analyst sitting in the US
Embassy in Moscow saying, look, guys, our economic policy towards
(29:27):
Russia is wrong. Russia is not ready for capitalism, it's
not ready for Western investment, and we're trying to jam
a square peg into a round hole.
Speaker 3 (29:39):
You know, I think that.
Speaker 7 (29:39):
Changed, and I think that evolved, and so what is.
Speaker 2 (29:42):
With President Putin and with the Ukraine War? What is
the status of capitalism right now? As maybe yesterday, maybe
tomorrow American business will be invited back into Russia.
Speaker 3 (29:54):
What's the state of capitalism currently?
Speaker 7 (29:57):
So two important things. Before the war, before Crimea and
before the full scale invasion, the Russian economy was increasingly
dominated and controlled by the government, by the state. More
than fifty percent of Russian GDP comes from state owned enterprises.
(30:21):
And so even though there is or was, I guess
we'll get to that in a second. You know, there
is a private sector in Russia. There are businesses owned
by private individuals. There are businesses on the Moscow Stock Exchange.
The Moscow Stock Exchange is sanctioned. You know, there is
a private sector in Russia, but most of the economy
(30:46):
now is dominated by state owned companies. So that's number one.
Number two is that you know, since Crimea and since
the full scale invasion of Ukraine, Russia is now the
world's most sanctioned country. It's more sanctioned than Iran, it's
more sanctioned than North Korea. And what that is done
(31:08):
is that it has entirely isolated and cut Russia off
from international commerce. I mean, there's a separate discussion to
have about how successful sanctions have been. But basically they
made Russia economically and politically a pariah nation, and so
capitalism in Russia right now is almost something not to
(31:30):
discuss because of the level of sanctions. But you're right,
Barry at the end of your comment that you know
there may sooner than we think. There may come a
time when sanctions are lifted and President Trump tells the
American business community that it's time to go back.
Speaker 2 (31:51):
And Charles, the last question I have for you, do
you think they will given their experience in the nineties.
Speaker 7 (31:56):
Yeah, you know. I'm I'm on tour on the US
East Coast right now, publicizing the book and giving lots
of book talks, and as I move around the East
Coast and meet people, I'm hearing anecdotally more and more
evidence that American companies are getting ready to go back.
Speaker 3 (32:16):
I would agree. And you know, a.
Speaker 7 (32:19):
Lot, an awful lot, has to happen. First, you know,
first of all, sanctions, and secondly, you know the reputational
concerns about going back to Russia, and you know what
sort of Russia is waiting for us when we get there.
You know, it's it's right now. You know, the war
has gone on much longer than anybody thought, and it's
still going on as we're speaking, and Russia has changed
(32:42):
politically and economically in that time, and other countries who
are not sanctioning Russia, you know, their companies have moved in.
So you know, American companies will probably go back. There
will be companies that have very strong stomachs.
Speaker 3 (32:58):
Right and want to take the risk because they think
there's a big return.
Speaker 7 (33:01):
That's right, and you know, a very strong appetite for
the risk reward equation.
Speaker 3 (33:07):
Right right ahead, Charles, one last comment. We just added
its time for this segment.
Speaker 7 (33:12):
Yeah, sorry, no, And so I think, you know, we'll
see there'll be the sort of you know, the Bellweather
companies that go back. We'll see how they do, and
then I think a lot of other companies will make
their decisions based on that.
Speaker 2 (33:24):
Yeah. I think American business is always interest taking risk
because they think there's a big.
Speaker 3 (33:27):
Reward behind it, and they may be rewarded handsomely.
Speaker 2 (33:30):
We'll have to find out tell us where people can
get in touch with you and catch up with the
work you're doing.
Speaker 7 (33:36):
Thank you for asking. I am all over LinkedIn where
you can find me at Charles Hecker and the book
is released in the United States by Oxford University Press
and in Europe and beyond by Hurst h U R
s T Publishers. I'm on Twitter, I'm on Blue Sky,
(33:59):
and would be very happy to hear from your listeners
and to hear feedback on the book. The book is
on Amazon and all the other great websites, and I'd
be I'd be delighted to hear from your listeners.
Speaker 3 (34:10):
Very topical for our small businesses.
Speaker 2 (34:12):
Charles, thanks for joining us, and thank everyone for joining
this week's radio show. I got to thank our staff,
our booking producer Sarah Schaffern or video and sound editor
Ethan Moltz. If you're serious about be more successful here
in twenty twenty five, give me a call. I've set
up a private line seven seven three eight three seven
eight two five zero, or email me at Barry at
molts dot com.
Speaker 3 (34:32):
Remember, love everyone, trust a.
Speaker 2 (34:33):
Few, and pali your own canoe. Have a profitable and
passionate week.
Speaker 1 (34:39):
You can find Barrymoltz on the web at Barrymoltz dot
com For more episodes of Small Business Radio at small
business radioshow dot com.
Get ready for all the craziness of small business. It's
exactly that craziness that makes it exciting and totally unbelievable.
Small Business Radio is now on the air with your
host Barry Moultz.
Speaker 2 (00:18):
Well, thanks for joining this week's radio show. Remember this
is the final word in small business for those keeping track,
This is now show number.
Speaker 3 (00:27):
Eight hundred and twenty seven.
Speaker 2 (00:29):
Well, a lot of small business owners feel shame when
their company fails because they link who they are so
much with their business. They may also have lost some
other people's money. What do you do with this shame?
My first guest is doctor Abby Marano, who has a
new book called Work in Progress, The Road to Empowerment.
Speaker 3 (00:50):
The Journey through.
Speaker 2 (00:51):
Shame offers a fresh perspective on the often overlook role
of shame in personal growth.
Speaker 3 (00:58):
Abby, welcome to the show.
Speaker 4 (01:00):
Thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 2 (01:02):
Give me the correct pronunciation of your last name, Marana. Okay, good,
you say it better than I do. So there's a
lot of shame around people that fail in small business.
Speaker 3 (01:16):
Why is that?
Speaker 2 (01:16):
Is this this close connection with who they are with
their business?
Speaker 5 (01:21):
Yeah, Well, shame comes from a sense of self, so
we tend to feel shame when we have behaved in
a way that is misaligned with who we think we
are or who we want to be. So if I
have behaved in a way, say I see myself as
a loyal person and then I cheat, that causes shame
(01:41):
because it's out of the character of who I either
want to be or see myself. Or say I have
religious views and I go against them, again, that causes shame.
Now with small businesses, say you want to be successful.
You see yourself as an entrepreneur, You see yourself as
someone who can get it done, you can do.
Speaker 4 (01:59):
It, and you fail.
Speaker 5 (02:01):
You see that as now, okay, well I'm a failure.
And the problem is when it comes to shame, there's
two types. There's toxic and there's healthy shame. And we
don't always recognize that there's a difference. But the difference
is healthy shame is a recognition that we all make mistakes. Right,
(02:21):
you know, good people do good things and bad things.
Bad people do bad things and good things. But toxic
shame is where we aligned say I did a bad
thing or a bad thing happened. Therefore, instead of it
being about the behavior, we make it about the self.
So I did a bad thing, therefore I am bad
(02:42):
or I failed, therefore I'm a failure. So toxic shame
is when we make that emotion self directed instead of
behavior directed. And I see this a lot, especially in
young entrepreneurs, where they go get an attitude. They see
thee is someone who's about to take on the world,
(03:02):
and they don't, and instead of recognizing, okay, this is
a part of the process, they direct that shame towards
the self and say, Okay, now I'm a failure.
Speaker 3 (03:14):
I want to go back to your definition.
Speaker 2 (03:15):
You said that you have shame when when something happens
beyond what you are, out of line what you think
you are, what you want to be. But a lot
of times in small business, our failures are not necessarily
in our control right and we feel them anyways. Is
does failure have a what role does the shame play
(03:39):
in getting us back to a place where we can
try again, or does it have a place at all.
Speaker 5 (03:46):
Yeah, that's a great question, because shame really is a signal.
When you feel shame, It's very different to other emotions
because it's self directed. So for shame to be felt,
it means I feel or that in myself there's a flaw.
It's not guilt. It's not I've done something and I
feel guilty, but it doesn't reflect who I am as
(04:07):
a person. That shame is only felt when it really
is reflective of the self. So if I've failed and
I'm feeling shame, then I'm associating that failure with who
I am, and that can really diminish self worth. So
I do see this a lot, and I think much
(04:28):
of it is because of social media.
Speaker 4 (04:31):
And this is where we can kind.
Speaker 5 (04:33):
Of not cure it, but get a better idea of
what's realistic. Because say you're starting a new business and
you have this idea of success. If you look on
social media or LinkedIn or any especially Instagram, you see
everybody with their flashy cars.
Speaker 4 (04:54):
Is what it needs to be successful?
Speaker 5 (04:55):
Yet and now if that's your idea of what success
should look like, okay, So if I want to be
an entrepreneur or a businessman, that's what it should look like,
because that's what social media is telling me. If I
feel that that's what I should be doing, but I'm
not because I had a failure, Now I look at
(05:15):
myself and go, I'm not meeting those standards. Therefore there's
something wrong with me and my abilities. And we really
need to recognize, especially with social media, that it's picked
to perfect right, it's artificial, and we hold ourselves to
these artificial standards, and we have to recognize when we
(05:39):
are moving the shame from the behavior to this self.
If we're feeling like a failure because we didn't do
something or we did something wrong.
Speaker 2 (05:48):
Yeah, I think it really is fed by two things.
First of all, that not get rich quick, but the
tremendous amount of success that a lot of entrepreneurs had
in the late nineties. The Mark Zuckerberg's The Bill Gates
is that Steve Jobs, we think we're going to be
the next Steve Jobs. We think we're gonna be the
next Bill Gates. And guess what, You're not going to
be right, because these are one in a billion kind
(06:10):
of people. And I think that there is a lot
of shame that goes along with well, I want to
brag how well I'm doing on social media, and if
I'm not there, I feel guilt, right, I feel embarrassment.
But for me, I think the interesting part is small
business owners always feel, and I think especially true for men,
that they are their business right, and somewhere along line,
(06:34):
we have to realize that we are not our businesses,
whether it's successful or not.
Speaker 5 (06:40):
Yeah, that is such an important point because again when
I said about that definition of shame is it's that
sense of worthlessness in this self if you are not
able to move yourself out of the business because businesses fail,
and it might have absolutely nothing.
Speaker 4 (07:00):
To do with you.
Speaker 5 (07:00):
It could be the economy, it could be because of
social issues, political issues. Sometimes great ideas just don't work or.
Speaker 2 (07:09):
Work now, or they don't work now right, They may
work later, it may just be the wrong.
Speaker 4 (07:14):
Time, yes, exactly.
Speaker 5 (07:16):
And sometimes they could flourish and then something changes and
the business goes down. And if you're not able to
remove yourself from that, you are absolutely going to feel
shame when the business isn't one hundred percent perfect because
you're unable to move your sense of self worth from
the company's worth.
Speaker 4 (07:37):
Right.
Speaker 2 (07:37):
And also we attach, especially in America, self worth to
financial achievement, right, especially for men, And if you financially succeed,
then there's more self worth, and if you financially fail, you.
Speaker 3 (07:50):
Will have less self worth.
Speaker 2 (07:51):
So let's say I'm feeling shame because Abby somewhere along
the line your business career, you're gonna feel shamed somewhere
along the line. It's just really inevitable. How do you
navigate those feelings of shame.
Speaker 5 (08:03):
Well, the first thing to do really is identify the
emotion and face it, because we so commonly look for
an escape. So when we feel that shame, because it
is so personal, we look for things to distract ourselves
against it.
Speaker 4 (08:21):
So maybe I.
Speaker 5 (08:22):
Overwork because then I have no time to sit with
my feelings. Maybe I get into a bad relationship because
then I don't have to be with myself and be
alone with my thoughts. Maybe I go to food, Maybe
I overwork, and exercise over exercise. All these things are
an escape from that emotion. And we have to remember
that our shame is telling us something. And if you're
(08:43):
feeling shame instead of disappointment because of an issue with
your business, then it's telling you you need to pull
your self worth out of that business and find something
in yourself to make you feel valued. And that's a
really difficult thing to do because a lot of the time,
the reason we attach ourselves to success is because of
(09:05):
low self esteem, because we're running from things because that
shame might be deep seated.
Speaker 4 (09:10):
Maybe we didn't.
Speaker 5 (09:12):
Get the reassurance and love that we needed as children,
so we look for that in accomplishments. So sitting with
that shame is very uncomfortable. So that is the first
thing to do when it's felt. Don't use things to
escape it. You have to actually face it and figure
out why am I feeling shame when a different behavior
(09:37):
and business directed emotions should be felt because it shouldn't
be directed it the self.
Speaker 2 (09:42):
Yeah, you know, you hit on something that I tried
to do over my forty year career of running businesses
that I try not to frame a shame but more
as disappointment.
Speaker 3 (09:50):
Right. I then try to have a pity party for myself.
Speaker 2 (09:53):
For twenty four hours, right, feel real good, sorry, cheer
the darkness whatever it is. And then after twenty four hours,
I try to take another action so I can move
myself to a different place, a place away from the disappointment.
Speaker 5 (10:07):
It's funny you say that because I have a forty
eight hour rule on everything, because it's not helpful to
suppress and avoid our emotions.
Speaker 4 (10:16):
It just isn't. We really need to face them and
process them.
Speaker 5 (10:20):
But we also don't want to dwell because we can
keep ourselves in really negative cycles. So we need to
find this balance. So I say, whenever things are really
difficult and you do feel overwhelmed by your emotions, let
yourself be overwhelmed for forty eight hours.
Speaker 4 (10:38):
Be overwhelmed for forty eight hours.
Speaker 5 (10:39):
If you need to eat bad, lay in bed, do it,
feel it, let it in. But beyond that point, dwelling
on it isn't productive anymore, and you have to just
get up and keep going. And there is no secret
recipe other than just put one foot in front of
the other and just get on with it and do.
Speaker 2 (10:56):
Something different, get yourself into a different place, even if
you have to volun here with friends or causes or
whatever you talk about in the book. The scientific basis
for the connection between shame and empowerment, what is that?
Speaker 5 (11:09):
Well, we tend to think of shame as the antithesis
of empowerment, that to be empowered, you have to be
shame free. And that is an impossible standard because human
beings will always have shame. It's just the way the
brain works. We can't always control our emotional triggers. And
shame exists for a reason because it is that sense
(11:30):
of failing of the self. What it means is when
I feel shame, I have done something that goes against
who I want to be or who I am.
Speaker 4 (11:40):
So it's a signal.
Speaker 5 (11:41):
It's telling me, hey, you're doing something that really doesn't
align with what you want and who you are. If
something needs to change, and when we're able to sit
with those uncomfortable and difficult emotions, face them and say, Okay,
why am I doing this? Why am I feeling this?
And say you're feeling shame for a failure in your business.
(12:04):
There's an answer in there, because why am I feeling it?
And then you might unravel while I'm tying my self
worth to my accomplishments.
Speaker 4 (12:11):
Okay, let's dig it a bit deeper.
Speaker 5 (12:13):
Why am I doing? Why am I lacking in myself?
And when we dig deep into why shame has felt,
we uncover answers that help us grow and change. And
that's empowering and shame.
Speaker 4 (12:28):
Because it is so.
Speaker 5 (12:30):
Negative towards the self, people can use it against you.
If you're feeling shamed for things. If someone brings it up, yes, yes,
and say you know a business partner or a competitor,
if you feel shame for something, you almost want to
bury that thing, and they can use it against you.
Speaker 4 (12:51):
And that's why my definition of empowerment is you can't
use me against me.
Speaker 5 (12:56):
Doesn't mean I think I'm flawless, doesn't mean I think
I think I make no mistakes. What it means is
I'm comfortable sitting with my shame. I'm comfortable facing the
fact that I am flawed and I am working towards change,
and I understand my behavior. So when you reflect my
behavior and my characteristics to me, I don't feel shame
(13:18):
for them.
Speaker 4 (13:19):
And that's really empowering.
Speaker 2 (13:21):
So the last question I want to ask you, what
advice would you have for a small business owner who
invests a lot of time and energy and their business
goes out of business and clearly now they say, you know,
I made some wrong decisions, I invest in the wrong things,
and they feel shame and their spouse is using that
against them. How they how they how do they move
past that?
Speaker 5 (13:42):
Well that the spouse It adds a real difficult layer
because we look for people who are support systems to
help us work through our shame. So those situations are
really horrible, but you have to stand true and strong
in your sense of self, stay away from social media,
(14:03):
and recognize that more lessons are in our failures than
our successes.
Speaker 4 (14:09):
You learn so much more.
Speaker 5 (14:11):
I've learned more in every failure than I have in
every achievement because now when I step forward, I'm going
to avoid making those mistakes again. So don't see failure
as you failing. It's just another step towards success. It's
an absolutely necessary step towards success. And anyone that makes
you feel shamed for that doesn't really deserve to be
(14:35):
a part of that. And it can be a really
difficult thing when that's coming from the home. So having
that difficult conversation of you're making me feel shameful for this, why,
and really having an open conversation, and.
Speaker 2 (14:50):
Also having a plan to move forward because unfortunately, unless
they invented time machine, we can't go back.
Speaker 3 (14:56):
Right exactly, go forward happy.
Speaker 2 (14:58):
I appreciate you on the show, so tell us again
the title of the book and where people can catch
up with you.
Speaker 5 (15:03):
The title is Work in Progress, The Road to Empowerment,
the Journey through Shame. You can find the book on
Amazon and all major bookstores, and you can find me
on my website Abbimorono dot com or doctor abbyofficial dot
com and that's doctor as in dr and I think
(15:25):
dr Abby Offisher Instagram and LinkedIn also.
Speaker 3 (15:28):
Abby, thanks so much the Small Business radio show. We'll
be right back.
Speaker 6 (15:32):
Do you still have great expectations for the great recession?
Barry can show you how to let go of failure
and bounce to get ready for that next great success.
Go to www dot Berrymolts dot com. Barry will show
you how to get crazy and achieve your business success.
Speaker 1 (15:53):
Stick around to get your small business unstuck. More of
Small Business Radio with Barry moles.
Speaker 4 (16:00):
Well.
Speaker 2 (16:00):
It seems with recent news that Trump wants to change
the US policy and make nice with Russia. One of
his goals is to encourage American business to do more
business in Russia. The question is small business interested in
that and are they ready to go? My guest is
Charles Hecker, who has spent forty years working in the
(16:20):
Soviet Union in Russia. He's worked as a journalist at
the Miami Herald in the Moscow Times, as a geopolitical
risk consultant at Control Risks, where he was a partner
in the firm. He's also the author of Zero sum
the Art of International Business in Russia, which is out
by the Oxford University Press.
Speaker 3 (16:37):
Charles, Welcome to the show.
Speaker 7 (16:39):
Erry, thank you. It's a pleasure to be here.
Speaker 3 (16:41):
So we read a lot of stuff.
Speaker 2 (16:43):
You know, again, things might have changed since this broadcast
when this broadcast comes out. But what's the current and
federal administrations thinking now about Russia and.
Speaker 4 (16:53):
Business which the person's writing it.
Speaker 7 (16:55):
I mean, those sounds coming out of Washington change almost
every day.
Speaker 3 (17:00):
Are we on tariffs? So we're not on tariffs. I'm confused.
Speaker 7 (17:03):
Everybody's confused. Welcome to the club. So just this morning,
we had a tweet from President Trump saying that he
wants to add additional sanctions and additional tariffs on Russia.
And so this was the very first time we've heard
President Trump using the stick, you know, in the carrot
(17:25):
and stick equation. In previous negotiations with Russia, President Trump
has used only carrots, and he's given away quite a
lot of negotiating cards in his conversations with President Putin
and in the negotiations taking place below that level. Today
(17:47):
he says, you know, in a one to eighty in
his opinion, he wants to sanction Russia. So, first of all,
it's extremely difficult keeping up with what's going on between
Washington and Moscow, or with Washington and anything, you know,
But Moscow is one thing. I mean, you know, what
about Canada, what about Mexico, what about China. You know,
(18:10):
there's a lot of countries to add into this mix,
and an awful lot of confusing and mixed signals. But
you know, if you take a step back, which you
sometimes have to do to get a little bit of
perspective on all of this, I think the overall direction
of travel between the United States and Russia is towards
(18:31):
re engagement. And that was sort of the overriding message
that came out of the Putin Trump phone call, and
then also the negotiations between US Secretary of State Marco
Rubio and Russian Foreign Minister Sergey Lvov in Riad. I
guess that's just a couple of weeks ago. Now, the
sort of the mood music coming out of those events
(18:56):
was that the US wants to do business with Russia.
Speaker 2 (18:59):
Again, right, because for three years we thought that Russia
star of the war, and now we realize Ukraine did
as sarcastically as I say, Yeah, So things shifted. But
let's go back to the capitalism, right, I mean, what
is the I guess the story of capitalism inside Russia?
And is there some unique quality it happened?
Speaker 4 (19:18):
Has those small things right off there?
Speaker 1 (19:22):
Yeah?
Speaker 7 (19:23):
I mean, if we sort of quickly try to go
over you know, the past thirty years of Western investment
in Russia. Capitalism came to Russia essentially in nineteen ninety one,
and it came to a Russia that wasn't really ready
for it. And so what.
Speaker 3 (19:40):
Does that mean?
Speaker 2 (19:41):
What does that mean Charles wasn't ready for because they
had been oh go ahead.
Speaker 3 (19:45):
Well thanks.
Speaker 7 (19:45):
I mean, so that was you know, following the collapse
of the Soviet Union. You know, the country, the Soviet
Union was led by a centrally planned five year plan
that you know, every five years said this is how
much we're going to make, and how much we're going
to sell, and how much we're going to produce, and
(20:06):
how much everyone's going to buy. It was a rigidly,
rigidly centrally controlled and centrally planned economy. And the Soviet
Union went away and the five year planning system went away,
and in its absence you had an absolute vacuum I
(20:28):
mean really, the country politically and economically was rudderless. And
you know, Russia had very few people who you could
actually call as capitalists or as business people. And you know,
the West came calling because Russia was an emerging market.
(20:49):
This was at a time of massive and rapid globalization,
and Russia very quickly became flavor of the month for
Western investors. But on the ground in Russia, there was
no economic infrastructure to sort of welcome this influx of
foreign investment. So things got off to a bad start
(21:09):
with capitalism in Russia.
Speaker 3 (21:11):
Example, give us some examples, chars of what happened.
Speaker 7 (21:14):
Well, I mean, first of all, I mean one of
the very practical examples was Russia had no working banking
system to speak of, which is a problem. That's a problem, right.
You know. You know, when I think when I first
moved to Moscow in nineteen ninety four, I might be
exaggerating a little bit, but there were maybe I don't know,
(21:34):
a half a dozen ATMs in Russia in Moscow. And
you know, Moscow is a city with a population now
of probably something like twelve million people.
Speaker 3 (21:44):
Wow.
Speaker 7 (21:45):
And even in the nineteen nineties, you know, Moscow was
a capital city. It had you know, maybe back then
nine ten eleven million population, and you know, there was
basically a small handful of ATMs where you could literally
withdraw cash. So there's that, and then really just a
financial services infrastructure where there were banks that you know,
(22:08):
there were no credit cards, there was no mortgages, there
was no you know nothing, and companies, the Western companies
that were doing business in Russia in the early days
had to come into the country literally with suitcases full
of cash to get business done. They came from all
over the world with suitcases packed full of dollars. The
(22:31):
rule was worthless. It was hard to get foreign currency
in Moscow. But you know, there were bills to pay,
and there were deals to be done, and you had salaries,
and you had rent and you had electricity. As international
businesses with rep offices representative offices in Moscow, you had
bills to pay. And people would land at the airport
(22:52):
quite literally with suitcases stuff full of cash. So those
are some examples of what it was like trying to
do business in the early days. You know, to fast forward, Moscow,
you know, fairly quickly became a reasonably sophisticated global financial center.
You know, not on the level of New York and
London or Frankfurt, but Russia had, up until sanctions, until
(23:14):
the full scale invasion of Ukraine, you know, Russia had
a sophisticated group of large banks with international footprints, you know.
And it also caught up very quickly because it was
able to take advantage of all of the tech and
all of the work that was done by the West
before it. So you know, now you can get a
mortgage on your mobile phone, and you know, you can
(23:38):
tap your way into the metro, and you know, all
of the things that we're accustomed to. You can pay
all of your electricity bills online. You know, all the
mod cons that we're accustomed to in the West. You know,
that all became a part of Russia.
Speaker 2 (23:52):
Charles, is that in the last decade, the last five years,
last twenty years, you know.
Speaker 7 (23:57):
I would say starting in the two thousands, okay, so
last twenty years. Yeah. And you know the other thing
that happened is that Russian students and Russian business people
were coming to London and the US and getting MBAs
and they were learning, you know, the most sophisticated ways
(24:17):
to manage businesses and so and also they were growing up,
if you will, they were sort of growing up inside
international companies. You know, it was it was a prestige
job for a Russian person to get a you know,
to get a job inside an international company. And that
was sort of like going to business school in a way.
I mean, if you were, you know, a young Russian
(24:39):
student and you graduated and you got a job at
PwC or ey or Deloitte, KPMG, all of those places,
you know, you were learning how international companies worked. And
so that sort of snowball, you know, kept rolling and
increasing in size. And Russia had a smart well edge
(25:00):
cadd a group of business people. It had businesses that
were aspiring to perform and in some cases performing to
international standards. It had companies listed on the London Stock
Exchange and the New York Stock Exchange. So you know,
capitalism came to Russia, but it came very slowly. It
(25:20):
was pretty bumpy. And then, you know, before the war,
people were saying that Russia was a complicated place, but
a place where you could get deals done.
Speaker 2 (25:34):
So charge let me pause you there, like right before
the war three years ago, was capitalism different than we
understand capitalism in the United States? Is it different in Russia?
Are things you know, done differently? I mean a note,
you know, when Trump first got into office, he said,
we're no longer enforced the law that you can't bribe
you know, foreign leaders or business people or whatever.
Speaker 3 (25:56):
It is, right, is I mean, I'm.
Speaker 2 (25:59):
Sure lot of bribing goes on in the United States,
but it seems like in other countries there's more. Is
when we think of capitalism three years ago in Russia,
is it different than capitalism here?
Speaker 7 (26:10):
So I think there are some features that are a
little bit different. And you know, capitalism is different in
every country and in every sector, and you know, depending
on every CEO and every board of directors.
Speaker 3 (26:24):
Absolutely, And I think here's.
Speaker 7 (26:27):
Something that lingers in my mind from sort of having
seen the Russian economy grow up over the past thirty years,
and how capitalism is a little bit different. You know,
under the five year Plan during the Soviet period, the
only way to make that plan work, to make this
(26:49):
sort of rigid socialist economy work, the only way to
get things done was to was to invent shortcuts. And
so people who were running factories in the Soviet Union,
you know, they knew they had their five year plan,
but they knew it was sort of probably not worth
the paper that it was written on, and they did
what they can to work around it. When capitalism came
(27:11):
to Russia, it was, to my mind, and you know,
I feel quite strongly about this, it was just another
new system that came to Russia, right, And I think
for a very long time, and this has evolved and
it has changed, but I think for a very long time,
the Russian attitude was, Okay, first we had the five
(27:33):
year plan. Now we have this thing called capitalism. What
are the shortcuts? You know, what are the workarounds? How
do we you know, this is a complicated new system.
What is this market?
Speaker 3 (27:44):
Uh?
Speaker 7 (27:44):
And you know, how do we work around it?
Speaker 6 (27:48):
And you know some.
Speaker 2 (27:49):
Instruct when you say work around it to keep doing
business the same way we've been doing business before.
Speaker 7 (27:55):
No, but to say that there's a new we're on
a new playing field. Now the rules are different, the
rules are complicated, we're not that familiar with them. And
you know, what kind of shortcuts can we make around
these rules? You know, the attitude, the mentality in a
way was the same, and that is, you know, we're
(28:15):
working with a system we're working at a framework. First
it was socialist, now it's capitalists. And you know, frankly,
we have all these rules, let's see what we can
do to shortcut them. And I think that that was
you know, there was there was a memorandum from the
Russian the Moscow Embassy, the American Embassy in Moscow that
(28:40):
was sent back to the State Department in nineteen ninety four,
and that memorandum was recently, just a couple of months ago, declassified.
And what the embassy analyst, the US embassy analyst sitting
in Moscow said was that American policy, economic policy towards
Russia in the nineteen nineties was trying to sort of
(29:04):
jam a capitalist square peg into a Russian round hole.
And the fit was really bad. And so, you know,
I think with hindsight we can see that very clearly.
There was a very clever analyst sitting in the US
Embassy in Moscow saying, look, guys, our economic policy towards
(29:27):
Russia is wrong. Russia is not ready for capitalism, it's
not ready for Western investment, and we're trying to jam
a square peg into a round hole.
Speaker 3 (29:39):
You know, I think that.
Speaker 7 (29:39):
Changed, and I think that evolved, and so what is.
Speaker 2 (29:42):
With President Putin and with the Ukraine War? What is
the status of capitalism right now? As maybe yesterday, maybe
tomorrow American business will be invited back into Russia.
Speaker 3 (29:54):
What's the state of capitalism currently?
Speaker 7 (29:57):
So two important things. Before the war, before Crimea and
before the full scale invasion, the Russian economy was increasingly
dominated and controlled by the government, by the state. More
than fifty percent of Russian GDP comes from state owned enterprises.
(30:21):
And so even though there is or was, I guess
we'll get to that in a second. You know, there
is a private sector in Russia. There are businesses owned
by private individuals. There are businesses on the Moscow Stock Exchange.
The Moscow Stock Exchange is sanctioned. You know, there is
a private sector in Russia, but most of the economy
(30:46):
now is dominated by state owned companies. So that's number one.
Number two is that you know, since Crimea and since
the full scale invasion of Ukraine, Russia is now the
world's most sanctioned country. It's more sanctioned than Iran, it's
more sanctioned than North Korea. And what that is done
(31:08):
is that it has entirely isolated and cut Russia off
from international commerce. I mean, there's a separate discussion to
have about how successful sanctions have been. But basically they
made Russia economically and politically a pariah nation, and so
capitalism in Russia right now is almost something not to
(31:30):
discuss because of the level of sanctions. But you're right,
Barry at the end of your comment that you know
there may sooner than we think. There may come a
time when sanctions are lifted and President Trump tells the
American business community that it's time to go back.
Speaker 2 (31:51):
And Charles, the last question I have for you, do
you think they will given their experience in the nineties.
Speaker 7 (31:56):
Yeah, you know. I'm I'm on tour on the US
East Coast right now, publicizing the book and giving lots
of book talks, and as I move around the East
Coast and meet people, I'm hearing anecdotally more and more
evidence that American companies are getting ready to go back.
Speaker 3 (32:16):
I would agree. And you know, a.
Speaker 7 (32:19):
Lot, an awful lot, has to happen. First, you know,
first of all, sanctions, and secondly, you know the reputational
concerns about going back to Russia, and you know what
sort of Russia is waiting for us when we get there.
You know, it's it's right now. You know, the war
has gone on much longer than anybody thought, and it's
still going on as we're speaking, and Russia has changed
(32:42):
politically and economically in that time, and other countries who
are not sanctioning Russia, you know, their companies have moved in.
So you know, American companies will probably go back. There
will be companies that have very strong stomachs.
Speaker 3 (32:58):
Right and want to take the risk because they think
there's a big return.
Speaker 7 (33:01):
That's right, and you know, a very strong appetite for
the risk reward equation.
Speaker 3 (33:07):
Right right ahead, Charles, one last comment. We just added
its time for this segment.
Speaker 7 (33:12):
Yeah, sorry, no, And so I think, you know, we'll
see there'll be the sort of you know, the Bellweather
companies that go back. We'll see how they do, and
then I think a lot of other companies will make
their decisions based on that.
Speaker 2 (33:24):
Yeah. I think American business is always interest taking risk
because they think there's a big.
Speaker 3 (33:27):
Reward behind it, and they may be rewarded handsomely.
Speaker 2 (33:30):
We'll have to find out tell us where people can
get in touch with you and catch up with the
work you're doing.
Speaker 7 (33:36):
Thank you for asking. I am all over LinkedIn where
you can find me at Charles Hecker and the book
is released in the United States by Oxford University Press
and in Europe and beyond by Hurst h U R
s T Publishers. I'm on Twitter, I'm on Blue Sky,
(33:59):
and would be very happy to hear from your listeners
and to hear feedback on the book. The book is
on Amazon and all the other great websites, and I'd
be I'd be delighted to hear from your listeners.
Speaker 3 (34:10):
Very topical for our small businesses.
Speaker 2 (34:12):
Charles, thanks for joining us, and thank everyone for joining
this week's radio show. I got to thank our staff,
our booking producer Sarah Schaffern or video and sound editor
Ethan Moltz. If you're serious about be more successful here
in twenty twenty five, give me a call. I've set
up a private line seven seven three eight three seven
eight two five zero, or email me at Barry at
molts dot com.
Speaker 3 (34:32):
Remember, love everyone, trust a.
Speaker 2 (34:33):
Few, and pali your own canoe. Have a profitable and
passionate week.
Speaker 1 (34:39):
You can find Barrymoltz on the web at Barrymoltz dot
com For more episodes of Small Business Radio at small
business radioshow dot com.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
My Favorite Murder is a true crime comedy podcast hosted by Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark. Each week, Karen and Georgia share compelling true crimes and hometown stories from friends and listeners. Since MFM launched in January of 2016, Karen and Georgia have shared their lifelong interest in true crime and have covered stories of infamous serial killers like the Night Stalker, mysterious cold cases, captivating cults, incredible survivor stories and important events from history like the Tulsa race massacre of 1921. My Favorite Murder is part of the Exactly Right podcast network that provides a platform for bold, creative voices to bring to life provocative, entertaining and relatable stories for audiences everywhere. The Exactly Right roster of podcasts covers a variety of topics including historic true crime, comedic interviews and news, science, pop culture and more. Podcasts on the network include Buried Bones with Kate Winkler Dawson and Paul Holes, That's Messed Up: An SVU Podcast, This Podcast Will Kill You, Bananas and more.
The Joe Rogan Experience
The official podcast of comedian Joe Rogan.