July 7, 2025 • 31 mins
Segment 1 with Dave Whorton starts at 0:00.
The “Get Big Fast” startup era is crumbling. Sky-high valuations, zero profits, and a fixation on rapid scaling have left businesses fragile and the economy unstable. It’s time for entrepreneurs to skip the funding rounds and rethink how they approach growth.
In his new book "Another Way - Building Companies That Last…and Last…and Last", former Kleiner Perkins Venture Capitalist Dave Whorton lays out a path forward. After seeing firsthand the risks of speculative growth, he rejected the Silicon Valley unicorn obsession he helped fuel, and now helps entrepreneurs thrive better in our volatile times.
Segment 2 with Marcelo Barros starts at 20:28.
Phishing attacks are forever changing and getting more creative. What do we need to know as small business owners and how should be educate our team?
Marcelo Barros is the Global Director of Hacker Rangers. He is an IT professional with over 30 years of experience and a strong interest in cybersecurity. As the Global Markets Leader at Hacker Rangers, a gamification company, he spearheads the company's expansion into markets outside of Brazil. Before this position, Marcelo dedicated 17 years to IBM, where he worked in cybersecurity, sales, and management, delivering solutions and achieving outcomes
Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/the-small-business-radio-show--3306444/support.
Listen to all the episodes of The Small Business Radio Show at www.barrymoltz.com
The “Get Big Fast” startup era is crumbling. Sky-high valuations, zero profits, and a fixation on rapid scaling have left businesses fragile and the economy unstable. It’s time for entrepreneurs to skip the funding rounds and rethink how they approach growth.
In his new book "Another Way - Building Companies That Last…and Last…and Last", former Kleiner Perkins Venture Capitalist Dave Whorton lays out a path forward. After seeing firsthand the risks of speculative growth, he rejected the Silicon Valley unicorn obsession he helped fuel, and now helps entrepreneurs thrive better in our volatile times.
Segment 2 with Marcelo Barros starts at 20:28.
Phishing attacks are forever changing and getting more creative. What do we need to know as small business owners and how should be educate our team?
Marcelo Barros is the Global Director of Hacker Rangers. He is an IT professional with over 30 years of experience and a strong interest in cybersecurity. As the Global Markets Leader at Hacker Rangers, a gamification company, he spearheads the company's expansion into markets outside of Brazil. Before this position, Marcelo dedicated 17 years to IBM, where he worked in cybersecurity, sales, and management, delivering solutions and achieving outcomes
Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/the-small-business-radio-show--3306444/support.
Listen to all the episodes of The Small Business Radio Show at www.barrymoltz.com
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:04):
Get ready for all the craziness of small business. It's
exactly that craziness that makes it exciting and totally unbelievable.
Small Business Radio is now on the air with your host,
Barry Moultz.
Speaker 2 (00:17):
Well, thanks for joining this week's radio show. Remember this
is the final word in small business. For those keeping track,
this is show number eight hundred and thirty seven. Well,
the get big, fast startup era is crumbling. Sky evaluations,
zero profits and affixation on rapid scaling have left businesses
(00:38):
fragile and the economy unstable. It's highed for entrepreneurs to
skip the funding rounds and rethink how they approach the growth.
In his new book Another Way Building Companies That Last
and Last and Last, former Kleinen Perkins VC Dave Warren
lays out a path forward after seeing firsthand the risk
of speculative growth. Rejected Silicon Valley unicorm sassually helped fuel
(01:02):
and now helps entrepreneurs thrive better involved in times, Dave,
welcome to the show.
Speaker 3 (01:09):
Very thanks for having me.
Speaker 4 (01:11):
Are you biting the hand that fed you initially?
Speaker 3 (01:13):
Or what?
Speaker 4 (01:14):
Now?
Speaker 1 (01:15):
You know?
Speaker 3 (01:15):
I don't think so. You know what I'm saying that
venture capital is is a bad thing. We're just trying
to say that it's become the facto growth model for
far too many people and being applied way more broadly
than I would have been done historically. And we want
to kind of re elevate the idea of building companies
from their own fuel and for them to last for generations,
(01:37):
not just be built to flip in five to seven years.
Speaker 4 (01:40):
So how did this get started?
Speaker 2 (01:42):
I mean I went through the go go late nineties,
you know, the Internet. I sold my company during that
time for a lot of money and it'd be worth
nothing today just because of all that speculation. Is that
when this whole thing got started where you had these
crazy valuations?
Speaker 4 (01:57):
Or was it before that?
Speaker 3 (02:00):
Yeah? You know, I talk about this quite a bit
in the book another way, but I think it was
when Netscape went public because prior to that, the advice
you'd give the investment bankers and kind of later stage
investors was you need eight quarters of profitability, You need
an intact management team, you need to have happy customers
and have visibility to at least four more quarters of
(02:20):
profitable growth before we could go public, And with Netscape
it had only been in business for less than eighteen
months from the time that it was formed, financed by
John Dori Kleiner Perkins, and taken public and end of
that day it was worth three billion dollars less than
eighteen months later. And I think that's when people said, whoa,
this is something new that Internet think is big potentially,
(02:44):
And frankly, investors are willing to tolerate something public investors
they never tolerted before. And so it came about beIN
feeding that, which is Wow, there's an insatiable demand for this.
Let's go at this. Let's grow these things as fast
as possible. Put a stake in the ground, put a
bunch of money, and I'm hiring a complete management team
higher top down. Don't worry about profitability. In fact, profitability
(03:06):
was a negative because you got two coasts of profitability.
Then the analyst would start financially answer and start putting
the traditional metrics on your business, and then your valuation
would be a fraction of what it would be if
you were growing faster with huge losses.
Speaker 4 (03:19):
No, it's interesting to me.
Speaker 2 (03:21):
Did it change because people really thought twenty five years ago, well,
this Internet thing is really going to be something big,
really soon.
Speaker 3 (03:29):
Yeah, Yeah, And I think John Dorr, who I worked
very closely with it was the person that said, you know,
this will be the greatest wealth generation in human history,
and at the time that might that you can feel that,
and then with a dot com bus said well, you know,
maybe John was wrong, and now you look at it
and you go, oh look it takes longer and longer
(03:50):
takes longer. Those can be worth trillions of dollars. I mean,
valuations we could even anticipate today. So you know, back
to you earlier point. I'm not saying VC is a
bad thing, but that model which kind of took over
the benure capital industry pioneered by John Dorer. Later I
went from being get big, fast growth at all costs,
you know, blitz bringing as a blanking on his name.
(04:13):
Reid Hoffman talked about, you know that is just being
applied far too broadly, and we're going to see it soon.
I mean, it's really unfortunate that that generation companies that
were funded by b cs between twenty ten and twenty twenty.
There's just far too many companies in each category twenty
twenty five point thirty, and they're all all there's going
(04:33):
to be as a winner or two, and in some
cases not even big winners as historic because the public
markets have now become skeptical again. They want to see
profitable growth, which is something that has not been the
playbook for a very long time.
Speaker 4 (04:47):
I know, if you remember that book.
Speaker 2 (04:48):
I'm in the book, the movie it's got to be
twenty years old, called Startup dot Com. It chronicled was
a documentary about guv works when it first got started,
in about how they were and tried to raise a
lot run money and then they crash. But even today
I see, you know, I help people sell their businesses,
and I still see today people's hubris on what they
think their business.
Speaker 4 (05:08):
Is worth, and especially if it's not profitable.
Speaker 2 (05:12):
And I say, well, you know, if you're not profitable,
every buyer goes through build or buy. If they can
build it for five million dollars, why should they pay
you fifty million dollars.
Speaker 3 (05:22):
That's true. That's that's very true. You know. It's it's
which universal and its classic. Is what I'm trying to
bring forward in this idea of the evergreen companies, right
because to your point, these companies actually understand the importance
of profitability, not just profitably high profitability because that gives
you the resources to reinvest back to growth in the
business or ward your team. You'll pay your owners a
(05:43):
hying up their capital, do acquisitions, and so this this
is something that I think is for many small businesses.
Focus on that because if it's really confusing when you
start chasing high growth, high losses and you're counting on
the next round of finny that's going to keep you
in business, why don't you focus on having happy customers
(06:04):
and happy employees. Get the profitability and then you can
stay business forever. Assume you can continue to adapt and
innovate and stay relevant to those customers.
Speaker 2 (06:14):
Well, let's talk about a couple of those things that
you discussed your book. And I think that it's a
path that is not hyped. I think a lot of people,
you know, they look at the one in a billion
success stores like Facebook or the Time, Netscape or Google
or any of these other kinds of things are now.
Speaker 4 (06:32):
You know, in the video or something like that. They're
is hyped.
Speaker 2 (06:35):
And people they read the stories, they go, I'm going
to be in the next Mark Zuckerberg. And I always
tell them, guess what, You're probably not going to be.
Speaker 3 (06:41):
But that's okay, Yeah, that's getting that's getting bed. Yes,
you're right hyped on the very very small number. Because
if you look at the number of companies that are
adventure finance in the last fifteen years, do you look
at the ones you just named any time or sex
added in tens of thousands of companies finance in that
period of time. So no, if you look at the
venture befolios, it tulls you everything. It's a power law dynamic.
(07:02):
You have one hundred companies in your portfolio, one or
two may become at that video. If you're lucky, and
you are, you're fabuously wealthy. I mean you've crushed it
as an investor. You've done well for your investors. But
that that is, that's the rare thing. The vast majority
of those portfolio companies is that they work nothing, at
least nothing for the employees.
Speaker 2 (07:20):
But but, but, David, where was their turning point for you?
Because at some point you were drinking the kool aid
a Kliner Perkins.
Speaker 3 (07:25):
Right, so I loved you.
Speaker 2 (07:26):
What a point did you say, Nope, this isn't the
right right way to go?
Speaker 4 (07:31):
What was what happened?
Speaker 3 (07:33):
You know, it's a shame I had a good fortune
of working at a packer when I was a teenager,
so I spent four summers working at factors here at
Packered and got really much indoctrinated by the employees on
the factory lines into the HP way. So it's always
planted in the back of my mind that really good
companies treat their people well, they're profitable, they contribute to
their communities. And when I started feeling really around the
(07:55):
Great Recession and post Great Recession, it felt like a
real shift to the in Silicon Valley, much more focus
on kind of making money, being famous, having power and
influence felt different than the original Silicon Valley I came into,
which is a lot of really passionate people around technology.
We're trying to bring it forward to try to improve
the world. And if they made money, that's great. I mean,
(08:17):
I'm not trying to take that away from anybody, but
that was not why they were doing it. They're doing
it for a technical contribution, just like HB was doing.
It felt that that had shifted. It was a lot
about the technical contribution. Yeah, you wanted to bring something
to Mark was kind of cool, exciting, but the end
of the day, it was about how much money kind
of raised at what valuations from who are these people?
And when I exit, how much are going to get
(08:37):
for it? And so that's when I started getting more disillusioned,
and I'm like, you know, where are the original day
packerds and Bill Hewitt's, I mean, where are they? And
that's what got me on this learning journey and that's
what took me all over the country and suddenly realized
there's data bills everywhere, They're just not as many in
Silicon Valley. So the heirs to those values I found
(08:58):
outside of Silicon Valley, not within soil.
Speaker 2 (09:00):
You know, it's interesting on much smaller scale. Now, I'm
helping a guy that's run a roofing business for you know,
twenty years, right, And all the guy does is just
make money, right. He did ten million dollars a year.
He brings home two and a half million dollars and
it's not sexy, right, but he's got the largest roofing
company in town. It's all employees, and he makes a
(09:21):
lot of money. And now he's going to cash out
in his mid forties and he's.
Speaker 3 (09:25):
Okay, yeah, yeah, And you know what, I hope he's
doing too.
Speaker 1 (09:29):
Is.
Speaker 3 (09:29):
I hope he's being generous with his team and treating
them well. I hope he's con turning to his community.
I hope he's being generous as far as his philanthropy,
because it's an incredible thing to build a company like that,
and it's incredible to be able to share in that
success for other than just yourself. I hope he's doing
that too.
Speaker 4 (09:47):
I think he is.
Speaker 2 (09:47):
Let's talk about some of the principles when you say
put profits before growth. I find too many entrepreneurs they
focus on the top line, not on the bottom line.
Speaker 3 (09:57):
Yeah, so what are we saying this is? You know,
I like to use the term Clayton since in the
former Harvard professor would talk about it's like be impatient
for profits, but patient for growth, whereas the world is
the opposite. It's impatient for growth patient for profits. He's
really speaking in the early life cycle of these businesses,
you'll find a way to get your product or service
(10:17):
into a smaller market if necessary, establish a profit beachhead,
and then grow from that over decades and you'll build
a very significant company. And I think that's now later,
as you start returning in our profitable patient growth, you know,
and it doesn't have to be forty to fifty one
hundred percent a year the venture standards of today. It
(10:37):
can be eight, ten, twelve, fifteen, twenty. But if you
compound those growth rates, I'm not saying every year growing
at the same level, some of years faster, some years slower,
better on average, you will build a very big, impactful,
profitable company. And that's the part we've lost. It's like,
if you're willing to dedicate your lifetime to building something,
just growing it year after year your people, well, these
(11:01):
book come significant companies. Yes, it'll generate a lot of
wealth for you as a byproduct, but more importantly, you're
touching the lives of so many people in a positive
way with evergreen type values.
Speaker 4 (11:12):
You know. It's interesting.
Speaker 2 (11:13):
You also mentioned run low cost experiments reduce risk, and
it seemed like during the go go years we were
running very high risk and expensive experiments.
Speaker 3 (11:24):
We're doing it today with AI. We're running extremely expensive
experience experiments in an area where it's very unclear who's
going to be able to winners, including the large companies
like Facebook, even today looks like they're falling behind an
ideal they did with scale. AI just announce a day
or two. It's fourteen billion dollars invested to get access
to the twenty eight year old CEO of the firm.
(11:46):
And they ain't even acquire the firm, They just get
some of this time. I mean it's unbelievable. But yeah,
small low cost experiments are incredibly valuable to the entrepreneur
to figure out is there really market there for you,
to figure out how you're going to extend your product lines,
to figure out you change your pricing strategies. I mean,
you want your whole team to be really good at
(12:08):
running experiments. You also want your team really good at
taisan continue to improvement because every dollar saved and expenses
a dollar to the bottom line, and we care about
those dollars. Dollars of profitability and everything company are really important.
Speaker 4 (12:22):
Well, talk about the everygon companies.
Speaker 2 (12:23):
One of the things you list in your principles is
pragmatic innovation. What does that mean and how does that
differ from just plain innovation.
Speaker 3 (12:32):
Yeah, so pragmatic innovation is very much aligned with these
ideas of doing small experiments. It's about going on on
learning journeys and really taking the time to learn something
in an area that your company may not do today
I think you want to do in the future. For example,
you've never done that M and A before. Go out
and talk to a bunch of people for what they've
learned positive and negative about when they started doing M
(12:53):
and A. And maybe the first deal you do is
a very small deal just because you want to not
expose too much risk to the company at that point.
It has to do with, you know, thinking about invention too.
So it's not just the little things about pragmatic innovation,
but how do you invent something that maybe you bring
into the market over a five to seven, eight, ten
year period, if it's successful, could substantially change that market
(13:14):
or create an all new market. But it's not big
check innovation. It's not Silicon Valley twenty five to fifty
one hundred million dollars. The entrepreneur has convinced the investors
and give them the opportunity to make that big bet.
That's not what we're talking about. We're going out small
investments to reduce risk to then put your scarce resources,
(13:35):
money and time against those ones that are positive and
giving positive years. And frankly, that's exactly did Silicon Valley
for its first fifty or sixty years. This big check
invention is a much more recent phenomena, and frankly, you're
going to see that a lot of this did not
work out and we wasted a tremendous amount of capital
by those investors would be the endowments to be, the
(13:55):
pension funds, wealthy individuals, foundations, and we'll see, you know,
a lot of this is going to come to releast
the next couple of years.
Speaker 2 (14:04):
You know, you also talk about to make sure if
you're never green company, to have a purpose, have some
north star, and I think as companies evolve, a lot
of them lose that north star.
Speaker 3 (14:15):
I think that's very true. And then I would say
owners set purpose. Just to be very clear, you have
to understand who the ownership of the company is. And
purpose is incredibly important because you think about it, you're
going to go through very tough periods over one hundred
year period building an every green company. Looking back one
hundred years, two World wars, a great depression. You need
it bad things right, so that thing is going to happen.
(14:35):
What's going to keep the team coming, what's going to
keep you motivated? Conpleider those bad times a meaningful purpose
is going to do that. It's also how you should
think about your products and services. Are you building products
and services? You're a life with your purpose. If they're not,
don't do it. Stay consistent with the purpose. This is
a very powerful idea. And it's not posters on the wall.
The one caution I would.
Speaker 4 (14:55):
Say, it's not posters on the wall.
Speaker 3 (14:58):
It's not. It's about your reward. Dave, come on right exactly.
Another thing I say too, and people, this is very subtle.
When you take venture capital or private equity, no matter
what you think your purpose is, it is now changed.
You have one purpose and has to maximize the exit
value for your investors. So you say whatever you want,
(15:18):
your team, and whatever you want on your website, and
you can do it with as much category as you
possibly can. Must but the end of the day, when
the rubber hits the road, the company will be sold
and it will be sold in such a way that
maximizes value for those investors. And so that is your
purpose now is that is to get that exit. And
the team that was it, they can they can sense that,
they can feel it, they can sense the shift, and
(15:39):
that is not something that's going to cause people to
kind of put in the extra unless you've aligned incentives
just purely financially, like you know, here's the deal, we
sell this things a lot of money, you get rich
with me. Sorry, you probably lose your job and move
on to something else. But now, purpose is a very
important component of building a long lasting private company.
Speaker 4 (15:58):
So Dave are going to ask, how has the book
been seen by your former colleagues.
Speaker 3 (16:02):
You know, I've had so I don't think my former
colleagues have Most of them have any issue with it.
They see it as being an alternative another way, which
is you're right, we've got our way, And I think
many venture capitals would tell you that, you know, we
UH as an industry are investing far too broadly, really
moving beyond where we belong and where we do the
(16:23):
best work. And it's hard because there's so much capital.
It has been raised by the industry. You know, in
the first twenty five years of the venture capital industry
it was about twenty five billion, I'm sorry, first forty years,
it's about twenty five billion raised. Well, in the recent
years it was two hundred and fifty billion a year. Wow,
of course, trillion dollars and so they understand this, and
(16:43):
I think in some ways they envy the companies, you know,
the great Evergreens, whether it be you know, Enterprise Rental,
car in and On, Hamburger's, White Castle, Meyer, Edward Jones,
North caton Market. I can go on and on and
on Radio Flyer, oh see Canner. I mean, these are
just wonderful companies. And I think there isn't a CEO
(17:03):
it's sitting in a public company or an adventure back
company or private owing company. They wouldn't love to be
a CEO of an evergreen company.
Speaker 2 (17:10):
And I really think the books should be called another
way for most, right, because it really is.
Speaker 3 (17:16):
For most are like the way you think with a rare.
Speaker 4 (17:19):
Few, right, it's right the VC way.
Speaker 3 (17:23):
And again let's start say anything way from they.
Speaker 2 (17:25):
Get the h they get the hype, but for most
companies it's another way.
Speaker 3 (17:30):
Well yeah, and you know again, if to get to
first product or service in front of our customer is
going to take tens of millions of dollars, you're not
going to be very difficult to do that in an
evergreen way. But just keep in mind, you know, Bill
Gates basically bootstrapped Microsoft, Amazon got public on nine million
dollars in a great capital. Google on twenty five million
from clienters to quim but they didn't really need the
(17:51):
twenty five million. So the great tech companies really didn't
require much capital before they became public. And so I
I like to tell that to every being leaders, to say, look,
don't think that the great companies are built on hundreds
of billions one hundreds of millions of dollars raised, billions
of dollars raised. Not in the very I mean in
the very recent past. Some of the most valuable companies
(18:12):
in the world were near boatstrap companies, including Apple. It's
it's incredible we've kind of lost track of that.
Speaker 2 (18:19):
Definitely, well, David, I appreciate me on the show to
tell the book is called Another Way, or maybe the
newtael is another way for most building companies that last
and last and last. Where can people catch up with you?
Speaker 3 (18:31):
Can you find me on LinkedIn? You're welcome reached out
to me through the boat Institute website. We've got a
lot of resources and ideas there for entrepreneurs. We have
a newsletter, weekly newsletter. We've got a self assessment so that
you can take advantage for somebody who meets our criterias,
interesting membership and tech. But instead we'd be happy to
talk to you too, And I love how you start people.
Speaker 2 (18:50):
Reach out the tug Boat Institute, which like just the
opposite of being a VCR shooting star.
Speaker 4 (18:56):
It's a tugboat. We're going to pull it along slowly
or to get to where we want to go.
Speaker 3 (19:00):
Right and we don't even pull. We just nudge and
incur exactly a lot of pulling exactly.
Speaker 2 (19:07):
Hey, Dave, thanks so much for joining us. This is
a small business radio show.
Speaker 4 (19:11):
Will be right back.
Speaker 3 (19:12):
Running a small business is hard and confusing.
Speaker 5 (19:15):
Most entrepreneurs start a company to solve a problem and
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(20:01):
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Speaker 1 (20:19):
Stick around to get your small business unstuck. More of
Small Business Radio with Barry moles.
Speaker 4 (20:27):
Well.
Speaker 2 (20:27):
Phishing attacks on your small business are forever changing and
incredibly getting more creative. What do we need to know
as small business owners and how do we educate our teams.
My guest is Marcella Burrows, who's the Global director of
Hacker Rangers. He's an IT profession with over thirty years
of experience and strong interest in cybersecurity. As the global
(20:50):
markets leader of Hacker Rangers, a gamification company, he's spearheads
the company's expansion into markets outside Brazil.
Speaker 4 (20:57):
Before this position.
Speaker 2 (20:58):
Marcelo dedicated si seventeen years of IBM, where he worked
in cybersecurity, sales and management, doubling solutions and achieving great outcomes. Marcella,
Welcome to the show.
Speaker 6 (21:11):
Hey, very thank you so much for visitation. I'm very
happy to be here with you.
Speaker 2 (21:16):
You know, I spent ten years at IBM, very early
in my career in the eighties when you used to
have to wear a blue suit and a white shirt
and a red tie every day.
Speaker 6 (21:27):
Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I use it to work
for IBM a long time here, especially in the Zoom
dealing with outsourcing companies and in the last seven years
of an ABAM security seller or big banks and other
companies in division as well.
Speaker 2 (21:46):
Marceall, it seems every single day someone's kind of there's
phishing attacks. People are trying to trick us into clicking
through on something or disclosing your information. How do we
spot them because they're becoming incredibly more and more difficult.
Speaker 6 (22:02):
Oh yeah, this is an increasing problem in the world
right now. Phishing attack is becoming more and more sophisticated.
As for example attacks they take advantage of AI and
create very complex and real emails for people clicking on that.
(22:24):
Sometimes they use a lot of social engioneer trips like
urgent tone in a male, big promotions and big discounts
and so on. So they are able to create other
website as well, look very close to the original ones
where they can ask for the people to put information
(22:47):
over there and then the attack continues. So this is
increasing a lot, and we are looking for ways to
get attention from the personals that take some kind of
security Aarignus training and so world to be more and
more educated on all these ways of being targeted by
(23:10):
these people. So gamification is one of our pillars here.
We use this to try to engage intrinsically our users
to go there have the information in a gamified way,
so they have some kind of a plant in this way.
They also retain more information in that. So this is
(23:31):
one approach that we are trying to use here and
help some contents to leverage the knowledge from their employees
on these different attacks that are coming every day.
Speaker 2 (23:43):
So before we get to the education, mar Sols, talk
about one of your favorite or most successful phishing attack
that you're seeing that's just really new and people are
getting scammed by.
Speaker 6 (23:57):
Yeah, we have a lot of journey is very interesting
kind of attacks right now, and one of it that
is very common right now, not only by fishing, but
also from sms.
Speaker 3 (24:12):
For example, UH.
Speaker 6 (24:14):
People are saying the sms with brief information for updating
some kind of records or if they are winning some
kind of a price for example, and people are willing
to go there click very fast. They're not so thoughtful
and thinking if this is real or not. And as
soon as they go there they see a lot of
(24:37):
good information, very realistic. They fulfil basically UH information from
their sides and UH this it's another way for them
to be caught. We call this maschine. It's being very
common and people are are also getting the information. There's
(24:58):
another UH kind of attack very common. Sometimes people are
receiving some package from Amazon, for example, they saw they
open it is not something that they bought, and there
are some instructions in the package with a keyr code
(25:19):
for example, saying if you have some damage or don't
recognize this, please scan this code well, fulfill all the
information to go back to us. So as soon as
they got these sometimes these small things that they received
at home and they scan, they go there to feel
a lot of information and this is the problem comes
(25:43):
you know. So they are very very very smart.
Speaker 2 (25:46):
Wow, and so what is the best way to train
your staff? You're talking about how you kind of gamify
this fishing training.
Speaker 4 (25:53):
How does that work?
Speaker 3 (25:56):
Yeah?
Speaker 6 (25:57):
Yeah, we have a plene of customer here that choose
Accer has to put this gamified approach to the users
not only for protecting the data from their companies, but
they realize that after a hacker rajured seasons that we
normally established three months for that period of training the
(26:21):
people that receive all the contents that we have. We
have a very huge larger number of courses, squeezies and
so on. In terms of courses, it's more than three hundred.
In terms of queizes more than seven hundred, and different
areas and attackers, different ways for them to understand a
(26:41):
little bit what is going on in terms of cybersecurity.
And when they get these courses, squeezes and so on,
they have badges, they have points, they have a leader
but that they saw if they're doing good or not
in terms of points, and for sure had a hinjury.
Seasons at the end, they have some kind of rewards
(27:03):
and recognitions and this varies from companies and companies. Some
of them they give a physical prices good prices for
for for for the first second and the third place
for example. Other companies they do give a weekend in
a good hotel in the beach here in the zero
for example. And we realize that not only if I
(27:28):
T people are doing good in the little boards in
the game. We have one healthcare company here uh where
the first place was a nurse. So when we interviewed
this person, we realized that she was taking the content
not only for her purpose, but also she was sharing
(27:48):
everything that she was learning through harpingies to their parents
and family. So in this case, we we we saw
that we are in power in these enguser not to
protect only the client data under their company, but also
they are providing these information and sharing the information to
(28:09):
people that they have on family at home for example.
Speaker 2 (28:13):
And Marcel, how often should I do this training for
my small business because it seems like things are constantly changing.
Speaker 6 (28:21):
M Yeah, this is one good question, very interesting. Normally,
we need to establish some kind of a continuous education
on cyber I tell this we are kind of like
a doctor that we are studying all the time, all
(28:42):
of your career in terms of developing ourselves in things
that are happening in this field, Insider, it's almost the same.
So we can build here seasons or pills of information
that will not take a huge time of the end user. Normally,
(29:04):
our videos, for example in the courses are one minute long,
so it's none of learning based. But if you continue
to give them small pills on a weekly basis, for example,
they will have this kind of mindset, a kind of
a behavior and cider developed all the time. And if
(29:26):
you count in a company like accohasis that in general
in average each month we create four new courses increases
for example, with new topics. This is good so you
can implement it small pills if will not take the
people outside from their normal activities, and they can take
(29:46):
it by cell phone, by their tablet or even in
their computer. So in this way you can establish small
pills continuously and this topic will be in their minds
every day.
Speaker 2 (29:59):
You know, Oh, Marcella, I appreciate you be on the show.
Where can people learn more about the services you offer?
Speaker 6 (30:06):
Yeah, you can go directly to our website that is
www dot Hockeringers dot com, or even if you want
to see what our clients think about Hawker hangres, You
can go to G two dot com and search for
Hacker hangs. Over there you will see more than seven
hundred reviews about Hacker Haingers. It is all about our
(30:32):
our clients that are using and what they are thinking
about us when they do all these kinishiat approach.
Speaker 2 (30:42):
Thanks so much for joining us from Hacker Rangers, and
I want to thank everyone for joining this week's radio show.
I got to thank our incredible staff, our booking producer
Sarah Schaffern, our video and so down edit Ethan Moltz.
If you're serious, I'll be more successful in twenty twenty five.
You got to call me on my private line seven
seven three eight three seven eight two five zero or
email me at Barry at molts dot com. Remember, love everyone,
(31:05):
trust the.
Speaker 4 (31:06):
View, and palerown Canoe. Have a profitable and passionate week.
Speaker 1 (31:11):
You can find Barrymoltz on the web at Barrymoltz dot
com or more episodes of Small Business Radio at small
Business radioshow dot com
Get ready for all the craziness of small business. It's
exactly that craziness that makes it exciting and totally unbelievable.
Small Business Radio is now on the air with your host,
Barry Moultz.
Speaker 2 (00:17):
Well, thanks for joining this week's radio show. Remember this
is the final word in small business. For those keeping track,
this is show number eight hundred and thirty seven. Well,
the get big, fast startup era is crumbling. Sky evaluations,
zero profits and affixation on rapid scaling have left businesses
(00:38):
fragile and the economy unstable. It's highed for entrepreneurs to
skip the funding rounds and rethink how they approach the growth.
In his new book Another Way Building Companies That Last
and Last and Last, former Kleinen Perkins VC Dave Warren
lays out a path forward after seeing firsthand the risk
of speculative growth. Rejected Silicon Valley unicorm sassually helped fuel
(01:02):
and now helps entrepreneurs thrive better involved in times, Dave,
welcome to the show.
Speaker 3 (01:09):
Very thanks for having me.
Speaker 4 (01:11):
Are you biting the hand that fed you initially?
Speaker 3 (01:13):
Or what?
Speaker 4 (01:14):
Now?
Speaker 1 (01:15):
You know?
Speaker 3 (01:15):
I don't think so. You know what I'm saying that
venture capital is is a bad thing. We're just trying
to say that it's become the facto growth model for
far too many people and being applied way more broadly
than I would have been done historically. And we want
to kind of re elevate the idea of building companies
from their own fuel and for them to last for generations,
(01:37):
not just be built to flip in five to seven years.
Speaker 4 (01:40):
So how did this get started?
Speaker 2 (01:42):
I mean I went through the go go late nineties,
you know, the Internet. I sold my company during that
time for a lot of money and it'd be worth
nothing today just because of all that speculation. Is that
when this whole thing got started where you had these
crazy valuations?
Speaker 4 (01:57):
Or was it before that?
Speaker 3 (02:00):
Yeah? You know, I talk about this quite a bit
in the book another way, but I think it was
when Netscape went public because prior to that, the advice
you'd give the investment bankers and kind of later stage
investors was you need eight quarters of profitability, You need
an intact management team, you need to have happy customers
and have visibility to at least four more quarters of
(02:20):
profitable growth before we could go public, And with Netscape
it had only been in business for less than eighteen
months from the time that it was formed, financed by
John Dori Kleiner Perkins, and taken public and end of
that day it was worth three billion dollars less than
eighteen months later. And I think that's when people said, whoa,
this is something new that Internet think is big potentially,
(02:44):
And frankly, investors are willing to tolerate something public investors
they never tolerted before. And so it came about beIN
feeding that, which is Wow, there's an insatiable demand for this.
Let's go at this. Let's grow these things as fast
as possible. Put a stake in the ground, put a
bunch of money, and I'm hiring a complete management team
higher top down. Don't worry about profitability. In fact, profitability
(03:06):
was a negative because you got two coasts of profitability.
Then the analyst would start financially answer and start putting
the traditional metrics on your business, and then your valuation
would be a fraction of what it would be if
you were growing faster with huge losses.
Speaker 4 (03:19):
No, it's interesting to me.
Speaker 2 (03:21):
Did it change because people really thought twenty five years ago, well,
this Internet thing is really going to be something big,
really soon.
Speaker 3 (03:29):
Yeah, Yeah, And I think John Dorr, who I worked
very closely with it was the person that said, you know,
this will be the greatest wealth generation in human history,
and at the time that might that you can feel that,
and then with a dot com bus said well, you know,
maybe John was wrong, and now you look at it
and you go, oh look it takes longer and longer
(03:50):
takes longer. Those can be worth trillions of dollars. I mean,
valuations we could even anticipate today. So you know, back
to you earlier point. I'm not saying VC is a
bad thing, but that model which kind of took over
the benure capital industry pioneered by John Dorer. Later I
went from being get big, fast growth at all costs,
you know, blitz bringing as a blanking on his name.
(04:13):
Reid Hoffman talked about, you know that is just being
applied far too broadly, and we're going to see it soon.
I mean, it's really unfortunate that that generation companies that
were funded by b cs between twenty ten and twenty twenty.
There's just far too many companies in each category twenty
twenty five point thirty, and they're all all there's going
(04:33):
to be as a winner or two, and in some
cases not even big winners as historic because the public
markets have now become skeptical again. They want to see
profitable growth, which is something that has not been the
playbook for a very long time.
Speaker 4 (04:47):
I know, if you remember that book.
Speaker 2 (04:48):
I'm in the book, the movie it's got to be
twenty years old, called Startup dot Com. It chronicled was
a documentary about guv works when it first got started,
in about how they were and tried to raise a
lot run money and then they crash. But even today
I see, you know, I help people sell their businesses,
and I still see today people's hubris on what they
think their business.
Speaker 4 (05:08):
Is worth, and especially if it's not profitable.
Speaker 2 (05:12):
And I say, well, you know, if you're not profitable,
every buyer goes through build or buy. If they can
build it for five million dollars, why should they pay
you fifty million dollars.
Speaker 3 (05:22):
That's true. That's that's very true. You know. It's it's
which universal and its classic. Is what I'm trying to
bring forward in this idea of the evergreen companies, right
because to your point, these companies actually understand the importance
of profitability, not just profitably high profitability because that gives
you the resources to reinvest back to growth in the
business or ward your team. You'll pay your owners a
(05:43):
hying up their capital, do acquisitions, and so this this
is something that I think is for many small businesses.
Focus on that because if it's really confusing when you
start chasing high growth, high losses and you're counting on
the next round of finny that's going to keep you
in business, why don't you focus on having happy customers
(06:04):
and happy employees. Get the profitability and then you can
stay business forever. Assume you can continue to adapt and
innovate and stay relevant to those customers.
Speaker 2 (06:14):
Well, let's talk about a couple of those things that
you discussed your book. And I think that it's a
path that is not hyped. I think a lot of people,
you know, they look at the one in a billion
success stores like Facebook or the Time, Netscape or Google
or any of these other kinds of things are now.
Speaker 4 (06:32):
You know, in the video or something like that. They're
is hyped.
Speaker 2 (06:35):
And people they read the stories, they go, I'm going
to be in the next Mark Zuckerberg. And I always
tell them, guess what, You're probably not going to be.
Speaker 3 (06:41):
But that's okay, Yeah, that's getting that's getting bed. Yes,
you're right hyped on the very very small number. Because
if you look at the number of companies that are
adventure finance in the last fifteen years, do you look
at the ones you just named any time or sex
added in tens of thousands of companies finance in that
period of time. So no, if you look at the
venture befolios, it tulls you everything. It's a power law dynamic.
(07:02):
You have one hundred companies in your portfolio, one or
two may become at that video. If you're lucky, and
you are, you're fabuously wealthy. I mean you've crushed it
as an investor. You've done well for your investors. But
that that is, that's the rare thing. The vast majority
of those portfolio companies is that they work nothing, at
least nothing for the employees.
Speaker 2 (07:20):
But but, but, David, where was their turning point for you?
Because at some point you were drinking the kool aid
a Kliner Perkins.
Speaker 3 (07:25):
Right, so I loved you.
Speaker 2 (07:26):
What a point did you say, Nope, this isn't the
right right way to go?
Speaker 4 (07:31):
What was what happened?
Speaker 3 (07:33):
You know, it's a shame I had a good fortune
of working at a packer when I was a teenager,
so I spent four summers working at factors here at
Packered and got really much indoctrinated by the employees on
the factory lines into the HP way. So it's always
planted in the back of my mind that really good
companies treat their people well, they're profitable, they contribute to
their communities. And when I started feeling really around the
(07:55):
Great Recession and post Great Recession, it felt like a
real shift to the in Silicon Valley, much more focus
on kind of making money, being famous, having power and
influence felt different than the original Silicon Valley I came into,
which is a lot of really passionate people around technology.
We're trying to bring it forward to try to improve
the world. And if they made money, that's great. I mean,
(08:17):
I'm not trying to take that away from anybody, but
that was not why they were doing it. They're doing
it for a technical contribution, just like HB was doing.
It felt that that had shifted. It was a lot
about the technical contribution. Yeah, you wanted to bring something
to Mark was kind of cool, exciting, but the end
of the day, it was about how much money kind
of raised at what valuations from who are these people?
And when I exit, how much are going to get
(08:37):
for it? And so that's when I started getting more disillusioned,
and I'm like, you know, where are the original day
packerds and Bill Hewitt's, I mean, where are they? And
that's what got me on this learning journey and that's
what took me all over the country and suddenly realized
there's data bills everywhere, They're just not as many in
Silicon Valley. So the heirs to those values I found
(08:58):
outside of Silicon Valley, not within soil.
Speaker 2 (09:00):
You know, it's interesting on much smaller scale. Now, I'm
helping a guy that's run a roofing business for you know,
twenty years, right, And all the guy does is just
make money, right. He did ten million dollars a year.
He brings home two and a half million dollars and
it's not sexy, right, but he's got the largest roofing
company in town. It's all employees, and he makes a
(09:21):
lot of money. And now he's going to cash out
in his mid forties and he's.
Speaker 3 (09:25):
Okay, yeah, yeah, And you know what, I hope he's
doing too.
Speaker 1 (09:29):
Is.
Speaker 3 (09:29):
I hope he's being generous with his team and treating
them well. I hope he's con turning to his community.
I hope he's being generous as far as his philanthropy,
because it's an incredible thing to build a company like that,
and it's incredible to be able to share in that
success for other than just yourself. I hope he's doing
that too.
Speaker 4 (09:47):
I think he is.
Speaker 2 (09:47):
Let's talk about some of the principles when you say
put profits before growth. I find too many entrepreneurs they
focus on the top line, not on the bottom line.
Speaker 3 (09:57):
Yeah, so what are we saying this is? You know,
I like to use the term Clayton since in the
former Harvard professor would talk about it's like be impatient
for profits, but patient for growth, whereas the world is
the opposite. It's impatient for growth patient for profits. He's
really speaking in the early life cycle of these businesses,
you'll find a way to get your product or service
(10:17):
into a smaller market if necessary, establish a profit beachhead,
and then grow from that over decades and you'll build
a very significant company. And I think that's now later,
as you start returning in our profitable patient growth, you know,
and it doesn't have to be forty to fifty one
hundred percent a year the venture standards of today. It
(10:37):
can be eight, ten, twelve, fifteen, twenty. But if you
compound those growth rates, I'm not saying every year growing
at the same level, some of years faster, some years slower,
better on average, you will build a very big, impactful,
profitable company. And that's the part we've lost. It's like,
if you're willing to dedicate your lifetime to building something,
just growing it year after year your people, well, these
(11:01):
book come significant companies. Yes, it'll generate a lot of
wealth for you as a byproduct, but more importantly, you're
touching the lives of so many people in a positive
way with evergreen type values.
Speaker 4 (11:12):
You know. It's interesting.
Speaker 2 (11:13):
You also mentioned run low cost experiments reduce risk, and
it seemed like during the go go years we were
running very high risk and expensive experiments.
Speaker 3 (11:24):
We're doing it today with AI. We're running extremely expensive
experience experiments in an area where it's very unclear who's
going to be able to winners, including the large companies
like Facebook, even today looks like they're falling behind an
ideal they did with scale. AI just announce a day
or two. It's fourteen billion dollars invested to get access
to the twenty eight year old CEO of the firm.
(11:46):
And they ain't even acquire the firm, They just get
some of this time. I mean it's unbelievable. But yeah,
small low cost experiments are incredibly valuable to the entrepreneur
to figure out is there really market there for you,
to figure out how you're going to extend your product lines,
to figure out you change your pricing strategies. I mean,
you want your whole team to be really good at
(12:08):
running experiments. You also want your team really good at
taisan continue to improvement because every dollar saved and expenses
a dollar to the bottom line, and we care about
those dollars. Dollars of profitability and everything company are really important.
Speaker 4 (12:22):
Well, talk about the everygon companies.
Speaker 2 (12:23):
One of the things you list in your principles is
pragmatic innovation. What does that mean and how does that
differ from just plain innovation.
Speaker 3 (12:32):
Yeah, so pragmatic innovation is very much aligned with these
ideas of doing small experiments. It's about going on on
learning journeys and really taking the time to learn something
in an area that your company may not do today
I think you want to do in the future. For example,
you've never done that M and A before. Go out
and talk to a bunch of people for what they've
learned positive and negative about when they started doing M
(12:53):
and A. And maybe the first deal you do is
a very small deal just because you want to not
expose too much risk to the company at that point.
It has to do with, you know, thinking about invention too.
So it's not just the little things about pragmatic innovation,
but how do you invent something that maybe you bring
into the market over a five to seven, eight, ten
year period, if it's successful, could substantially change that market
(13:14):
or create an all new market. But it's not big
check innovation. It's not Silicon Valley twenty five to fifty
one hundred million dollars. The entrepreneur has convinced the investors
and give them the opportunity to make that big bet.
That's not what we're talking about. We're going out small
investments to reduce risk to then put your scarce resources,
(13:35):
money and time against those ones that are positive and
giving positive years. And frankly, that's exactly did Silicon Valley
for its first fifty or sixty years. This big check
invention is a much more recent phenomena, and frankly, you're
going to see that a lot of this did not
work out and we wasted a tremendous amount of capital
by those investors would be the endowments to be, the
(13:55):
pension funds, wealthy individuals, foundations, and we'll see, you know,
a lot of this is going to come to releast
the next couple of years.
Speaker 2 (14:04):
You know, you also talk about to make sure if
you're never green company, to have a purpose, have some
north star, and I think as companies evolve, a lot
of them lose that north star.
Speaker 3 (14:15):
I think that's very true. And then I would say
owners set purpose. Just to be very clear, you have
to understand who the ownership of the company is. And
purpose is incredibly important because you think about it, you're
going to go through very tough periods over one hundred
year period building an every green company. Looking back one
hundred years, two World wars, a great depression. You need
it bad things right, so that thing is going to happen.
(14:35):
What's going to keep the team coming, what's going to
keep you motivated? Conpleider those bad times a meaningful purpose
is going to do that. It's also how you should
think about your products and services. Are you building products
and services? You're a life with your purpose. If they're not,
don't do it. Stay consistent with the purpose. This is
a very powerful idea. And it's not posters on the wall.
The one caution I would.
Speaker 4 (14:55):
Say, it's not posters on the wall.
Speaker 3 (14:58):
It's not. It's about your reward. Dave, come on right exactly.
Another thing I say too, and people, this is very subtle.
When you take venture capital or private equity, no matter
what you think your purpose is, it is now changed.
You have one purpose and has to maximize the exit
value for your investors. So you say whatever you want,
(15:18):
your team, and whatever you want on your website, and
you can do it with as much category as you
possibly can. Must but the end of the day, when
the rubber hits the road, the company will be sold
and it will be sold in such a way that
maximizes value for those investors. And so that is your
purpose now is that is to get that exit. And
the team that was it, they can they can sense that,
they can feel it, they can sense the shift, and
(15:39):
that is not something that's going to cause people to
kind of put in the extra unless you've aligned incentives
just purely financially, like you know, here's the deal, we
sell this things a lot of money, you get rich
with me. Sorry, you probably lose your job and move
on to something else. But now, purpose is a very
important component of building a long lasting private company.
Speaker 4 (15:58):
So Dave are going to ask, how has the book
been seen by your former colleagues.
Speaker 3 (16:02):
You know, I've had so I don't think my former
colleagues have Most of them have any issue with it.
They see it as being an alternative another way, which
is you're right, we've got our way, And I think
many venture capitals would tell you that, you know, we
UH as an industry are investing far too broadly, really
moving beyond where we belong and where we do the
(16:23):
best work. And it's hard because there's so much capital.
It has been raised by the industry. You know, in
the first twenty five years of the venture capital industry
it was about twenty five billion, I'm sorry, first forty years,
it's about twenty five billion raised. Well, in the recent
years it was two hundred and fifty billion a year. Wow,
of course, trillion dollars and so they understand this, and
(16:43):
I think in some ways they envy the companies, you know,
the great Evergreens, whether it be you know, Enterprise Rental,
car in and On, Hamburger's, White Castle, Meyer, Edward Jones,
North caton Market. I can go on and on and
on Radio Flyer, oh see Canner. I mean, these are
just wonderful companies. And I think there isn't a CEO
(17:03):
it's sitting in a public company or an adventure back
company or private owing company. They wouldn't love to be
a CEO of an evergreen company.
Speaker 2 (17:10):
And I really think the books should be called another
way for most, right, because it really is.
Speaker 3 (17:16):
For most are like the way you think with a rare.
Speaker 4 (17:19):
Few, right, it's right the VC way.
Speaker 3 (17:23):
And again let's start say anything way from they.
Speaker 2 (17:25):
Get the h they get the hype, but for most
companies it's another way.
Speaker 3 (17:30):
Well yeah, and you know again, if to get to
first product or service in front of our customer is
going to take tens of millions of dollars, you're not
going to be very difficult to do that in an
evergreen way. But just keep in mind, you know, Bill
Gates basically bootstrapped Microsoft, Amazon got public on nine million
dollars in a great capital. Google on twenty five million
from clienters to quim but they didn't really need the
(17:51):
twenty five million. So the great tech companies really didn't
require much capital before they became public. And so I
I like to tell that to every being leaders, to say, look,
don't think that the great companies are built on hundreds
of billions one hundreds of millions of dollars raised, billions
of dollars raised. Not in the very I mean in
the very recent past. Some of the most valuable companies
(18:12):
in the world were near boatstrap companies, including Apple. It's
it's incredible we've kind of lost track of that.
Speaker 2 (18:19):
Definitely, well, David, I appreciate me on the show to
tell the book is called Another Way, or maybe the
newtael is another way for most building companies that last
and last and last. Where can people catch up with you?
Speaker 3 (18:31):
Can you find me on LinkedIn? You're welcome reached out
to me through the boat Institute website. We've got a
lot of resources and ideas there for entrepreneurs. We have
a newsletter, weekly newsletter. We've got a self assessment so that
you can take advantage for somebody who meets our criterias,
interesting membership and tech. But instead we'd be happy to
talk to you too, And I love how you start people.
Speaker 2 (18:50):
Reach out the tug Boat Institute, which like just the
opposite of being a VCR shooting star.
Speaker 4 (18:56):
It's a tugboat. We're going to pull it along slowly
or to get to where we want to go.
Speaker 3 (19:00):
Right and we don't even pull. We just nudge and
incur exactly a lot of pulling exactly.
Speaker 2 (19:07):
Hey, Dave, thanks so much for joining us. This is
a small business radio show.
Speaker 4 (19:11):
Will be right back.
Speaker 3 (19:12):
Running a small business is hard and confusing.
Speaker 5 (19:15):
Most entrepreneurs start a company to solve a problem and
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(20:01):
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Speaker 1 (20:19):
Stick around to get your small business unstuck. More of
Small Business Radio with Barry moles.
Speaker 4 (20:27):
Well.
Speaker 2 (20:27):
Phishing attacks on your small business are forever changing and
incredibly getting more creative. What do we need to know
as small business owners and how do we educate our teams.
My guest is Marcella Burrows, who's the Global director of
Hacker Rangers. He's an IT profession with over thirty years
of experience and strong interest in cybersecurity. As the global
(20:50):
markets leader of Hacker Rangers, a gamification company, he's spearheads
the company's expansion into markets outside Brazil.
Speaker 4 (20:57):
Before this position.
Speaker 2 (20:58):
Marcelo dedicated si seventeen years of IBM, where he worked
in cybersecurity, sales and management, doubling solutions and achieving great outcomes. Marcella,
Welcome to the show.
Speaker 6 (21:11):
Hey, very thank you so much for visitation. I'm very
happy to be here with you.
Speaker 2 (21:16):
You know, I spent ten years at IBM, very early
in my career in the eighties when you used to
have to wear a blue suit and a white shirt
and a red tie every day.
Speaker 6 (21:27):
Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I use it to work
for IBM a long time here, especially in the Zoom
dealing with outsourcing companies and in the last seven years
of an ABAM security seller or big banks and other
companies in division as well.
Speaker 2 (21:46):
Marceall, it seems every single day someone's kind of there's
phishing attacks. People are trying to trick us into clicking
through on something or disclosing your information. How do we
spot them because they're becoming incredibly more and more difficult.
Speaker 6 (22:02):
Oh yeah, this is an increasing problem in the world
right now. Phishing attack is becoming more and more sophisticated.
As for example attacks they take advantage of AI and
create very complex and real emails for people clicking on that.
(22:24):
Sometimes they use a lot of social engioneer trips like
urgent tone in a male, big promotions and big discounts
and so on. So they are able to create other
website as well, look very close to the original ones
where they can ask for the people to put information
(22:47):
over there and then the attack continues. So this is
increasing a lot, and we are looking for ways to
get attention from the personals that take some kind of
security Aarignus training and so world to be more and
more educated on all these ways of being targeted by
(23:10):
these people. So gamification is one of our pillars here.
We use this to try to engage intrinsically our users
to go there have the information in a gamified way,
so they have some kind of a plant in this way.
They also retain more information in that. So this is
(23:31):
one approach that we are trying to use here and
help some contents to leverage the knowledge from their employees
on these different attacks that are coming every day.
Speaker 2 (23:43):
So before we get to the education, mar Sols, talk
about one of your favorite or most successful phishing attack
that you're seeing that's just really new and people are
getting scammed by.
Speaker 6 (23:57):
Yeah, we have a lot of journey is very interesting
kind of attacks right now, and one of it that
is very common right now, not only by fishing, but
also from sms.
Speaker 3 (24:12):
For example, UH.
Speaker 6 (24:14):
People are saying the sms with brief information for updating
some kind of records or if they are winning some
kind of a price for example, and people are willing
to go there click very fast. They're not so thoughtful
and thinking if this is real or not. And as
soon as they go there they see a lot of
(24:37):
good information, very realistic. They fulfil basically UH information from
their sides and UH this it's another way for them
to be caught. We call this maschine. It's being very
common and people are are also getting the information. There's
(24:58):
another UH kind of attack very common. Sometimes people are
receiving some package from Amazon, for example, they saw they
open it is not something that they bought, and there
are some instructions in the package with a keyr code
(25:19):
for example, saying if you have some damage or don't
recognize this, please scan this code well, fulfill all the
information to go back to us. So as soon as
they got these sometimes these small things that they received
at home and they scan, they go there to feel
a lot of information and this is the problem comes
(25:43):
you know. So they are very very very smart.
Speaker 2 (25:46):
Wow, and so what is the best way to train
your staff? You're talking about how you kind of gamify
this fishing training.
Speaker 4 (25:53):
How does that work?
Speaker 3 (25:56):
Yeah?
Speaker 6 (25:57):
Yeah, we have a plene of customer here that choose
Accer has to put this gamified approach to the users
not only for protecting the data from their companies, but
they realize that after a hacker rajured seasons that we
normally established three months for that period of training the
(26:21):
people that receive all the contents that we have. We
have a very huge larger number of courses, squeezies and
so on. In terms of courses, it's more than three hundred.
In terms of queizes more than seven hundred, and different
areas and attackers, different ways for them to understand a
(26:41):
little bit what is going on in terms of cybersecurity.
And when they get these courses, squeezes and so on,
they have badges, they have points, they have a leader
but that they saw if they're doing good or not
in terms of points, and for sure had a hinjury.
Seasons at the end, they have some kind of rewards
(27:03):
and recognitions and this varies from companies and companies. Some
of them they give a physical prices good prices for
for for for the first second and the third place
for example. Other companies they do give a weekend in
a good hotel in the beach here in the zero
for example. And we realize that not only if I
(27:28):
T people are doing good in the little boards in
the game. We have one healthcare company here uh where
the first place was a nurse. So when we interviewed
this person, we realized that she was taking the content
not only for her purpose, but also she was sharing
(27:48):
everything that she was learning through harpingies to their parents
and family. So in this case, we we we saw
that we are in power in these enguser not to
protect only the client data under their company, but also
they are providing these information and sharing the information to
(28:09):
people that they have on family at home for example.
Speaker 2 (28:13):
And Marcel, how often should I do this training for
my small business because it seems like things are constantly changing.
Speaker 6 (28:21):
M Yeah, this is one good question, very interesting. Normally,
we need to establish some kind of a continuous education
on cyber I tell this we are kind of like
a doctor that we are studying all the time, all
(28:42):
of your career in terms of developing ourselves in things
that are happening in this field, Insider, it's almost the same.
So we can build here seasons or pills of information
that will not take a huge time of the end user. Normally,
(29:04):
our videos, for example in the courses are one minute long,
so it's none of learning based. But if you continue
to give them small pills on a weekly basis, for example,
they will have this kind of mindset, a kind of
a behavior and cider developed all the time. And if
(29:26):
you count in a company like accohasis that in general
in average each month we create four new courses increases
for example, with new topics. This is good so you
can implement it small pills if will not take the
people outside from their normal activities, and they can take
(29:46):
it by cell phone, by their tablet or even in
their computer. So in this way you can establish small
pills continuously and this topic will be in their minds
every day.
Speaker 2 (29:59):
You know, Oh, Marcella, I appreciate you be on the show.
Where can people learn more about the services you offer?
Speaker 6 (30:06):
Yeah, you can go directly to our website that is
www dot Hockeringers dot com, or even if you want
to see what our clients think about Hawker hangres, You
can go to G two dot com and search for
Hacker hangs. Over there you will see more than seven
hundred reviews about Hacker Haingers. It is all about our
(30:32):
our clients that are using and what they are thinking
about us when they do all these kinishiat approach.
Speaker 2 (30:42):
Thanks so much for joining us from Hacker Rangers, and
I want to thank everyone for joining this week's radio show.
I got to thank our incredible staff, our booking producer
Sarah Schaffern, our video and so down edit Ethan Moltz.
If you're serious, I'll be more successful in twenty twenty five.
You got to call me on my private line seven
seven three eight three seven eight two five zero or
email me at Barry at molts dot com. Remember, love everyone,
(31:05):
trust the.
Speaker 4 (31:06):
View, and palerown Canoe. Have a profitable and passionate week.
Speaker 1 (31:11):
You can find Barrymoltz on the web at Barrymoltz dot
com or more episodes of Small Business Radio at small
Business radioshow dot com
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