June 5, 2024 • 41 mins
In this episode, Matthew talks to Anton Roberts about his research on homelessness and masculinity. Anton is a researcher at the Policy Evaluation and Research Unit (PERU) at Manchester Metropolitan University, within the disciplines of Sociology and Criminology. His specific research areas of focus are homelessness and exaggerated 'hyper' forms of masculinity.
You can lcontact Anton on email - A.Roberts@mmu.ac.uk
You can now book online one to one tutoring with Matthew from the Sociology show here -https://calendly.com/sociologyshowtutoring
You can lcontact Anton on email - A.Roberts@mmu.ac.uk
You can now book online one to one tutoring with Matthew from the Sociology show here -https://calendly.com/sociologyshowtutoring
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Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
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Thank you very much for listening.Let's go over to the interview. Hi.
You're listening to The Sociology Show,a podcast about absolutely anything to do
with the wonderful world of sociology.Whether you're a teacher, a lecturer,
a student, or just taking apassing interest. This podcast will look at
(01:30):
a range of issues from social class, ethnicity, gender, sexuality, religion,
crime, education, and anything elsethat sociology has to offer. My
name is Matthew Wilkin. In eachepisode, I will speak to someone working
in the field of sociology and letthem explain all about their own interests,
their research, and their experiences.So put your ear votes in, turn
(01:55):
the volume up, and let's besociology geeks together. A Hello and welcome
to The Sociology Show podcast. Wouldyou like to start by telling us a
little bit about who you are andwhat you do? Please, no problem,
Thanks for having me on the show. Really appreciate it. My name
is Anton Roberts and I am akind of social policy kind of researcher,
(02:17):
I would say, in the areaof sociology and criminology. So I am
a PhD researcher at i MMU,and I also work for PROUGH, the
Policy Evaluation and Research Unit as well. Great, thank you very much,
and we're going to talk about yourresearch, which is on homelessness, gender
(02:38):
and homelessness, but a little bitmore all about it for us. Yeah.
Yeah, So the official title isa Mixed Method Study into the Gender
Nature of Homeless Communities. So essentially, I'm kind of exploring both the kind
of presentations that you tend to seein those kinds of populations from from a
(03:00):
gender point of view, and I'malso kind of exploring the social capital elements
as well, so you know,the sort of social resources that do or
do not exist in in arguably quitehostile environments. And that's kind of you
know, in a nutshell or wouldyou like more? No, Yeah,
(03:23):
I can go all day, Matthew. I'm could have started right from the
beginning, because I think people areprobably aware that that homelessness is you know,
majority male. What sort of percentageyou were talking about, what ways
the breakdown of male to female.Oh right, okay, So if and
again it's always gets a little bittricky because there are types different types of
(03:43):
homelessness. So if if if,if you're talking about visible for forms of
homelessness, which is what I lookat, So I look at kind of
street street based, rough sleeping kindof form for homelessness, we're with that.
It's over while willly male, Imean really sort of ninety percent that's
yeah, that's that, that's typical. It's like sexually, I mean it's
(04:06):
a little bit more common now,but it's it's it's really rare generally to
see a woman in a in ain a service in that way. And
if they are, they're never alone, usually with a male. If if
you're talking more hidden homelessness as aswe would talk about it in the literature,
(04:27):
that is I think decidedly more female. But the problem with that is
obviously the numbers trying to trying tocapture that is incredibly difficult because you know
that they might be in in sortof very difficult home kind of like like
domestic violence situations which you know,we we we just wouldn't know unless they
and if they unless they had aninvolvement in service, or they might be
in some type of you know,shelter sort of type of thing, like
(04:50):
you know, for maybe nothing forwomen who are fleeing domestic violence. So
that it's it's actually really really reallydifficult for us, for me, or
any of us really as a ahomelessness researcher to give you an idea of
how large the hiding homelessess population isin the UK. I really couldn't tell
you. I wish I could,but yeah, and your research does it
take place in Manchester? I knowthat's where where you're based. Yeah,
(05:12):
yeah, yeah, So mine wasa primarily ethnographic over sort of the two
year period. So I did it. I did it across three three sites
in Manchester, so I was Iwas based in like three homelessness services that
cater to sort of street sleeping homelessprimarily. I would say I'd probably know
(05:38):
the answer to this because it's obviouslya major city. But how how bad
is the issue in Manchester? Imean, I'm based in Brighton. We've
got a big homeless problem here,and I just wondered how Manchester compares to
say the capital for example. Yeah, nowhe's worse than London obviously, but
I would say Manchester's probably probably secondon that unfortun that list, I would
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say, and we we we wedo a large, a large problem here.
If you're talking about, you know, from the point of view of
of of like going to a counciland say, you know, I need
you know, assistance, please helpsort of this sort of thing, and
you know where you would have likean assessment from a local authority that kind
of shifts between one hundred two hundredthousand kind of you know kind of thing.
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But that obviously doesn't mean that they'llget help. That's just where there's
there's an assessment going on basically thatthat that that happen kind of counts.
You know, it's usually kind ofplace sort of like a couple of hundred
kind of kind of ballpack figure interms of like rough sleeping. But again,
if you were to speak to theservices there, they would all say
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that that there's far more than that, because most most of these guys will
avoid, you know, people fromthe council, like the plague. So
you know, if they're they're goingaround going oh, you know there's a
guy there's you know, they theythey won't won't be there. So when
I was all, well, allthe services I was I was at,
you would see you know, seventyyou know, sort of one hundred plus
(07:09):
in one day, you know,and some of those where sort of like
return to service users, but manyof them went, many of them went.
So yeah, I suspect it's alwaysit's always a larger problem than we're
aware of. Usually it's a particularhotspots in the city center as well.
Oh yeah, good question. Soyeah, so it's a bit of a
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it's a tough one, so yes, but it's also so much more contested.
So obviously they get that there's there'sincreased footfall, right, So generally,
yes, then that there is moremore people experiencing homelessness there, but
there's all but there's also much morerestrictions in terms of where they where they
can can't go. So you know, so we have things like pspos like
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Public Space protection or just for examplethat kind of criminalize lots of well quite
ordinary behavior really like drinking. Youknow, like if if if if you're
a student, say on a Friday, having a drink, that's that's usually
not a problem. But if you'reif you're unfortunately someone who's homeless and you're
doing the same thing, then itallows councils to criminalize in that way.
(08:16):
So we have we have, wehave a lot of those in operation so
so so yes, there is moreof them, but they're also regularly moved
on and it's quite a struggle forthem to exist in those spaces often.
That makes sense. Yeah, that'suseful. So let's get stuck into before
we sort of find learn a littlebit more about your findings. You mentioned
about how you did your research,so a couple of years ethnographic research.
(08:39):
Do you want to say a littlebit more about sort of your methodology if
you like, Yeah, absolutely somine's Mine's a mixed method study. So
I kind of drew on a coupleof different pieces. My main bulk is
ethnographic, just just because that's whatI've loved the most, even before I
was involved in research. I thinkis really the only way that you can
really understand the social context is byimmersing yourself in it. You know.
(09:03):
I was very kind of influenced bythe kind of earlier like Margaret Meade,
kind of more anthropological kind of work, and I was loved idea of immersing
myself and basing myself there so thatso that was the I suppose the largest
element where I would use a versionof ethnography called at home ethnography. So
that's where you where you actually imbedyourself within the organization. So you know,
(09:28):
with sort of like traditional hardcore,you know, you would sort of
be a fly in the war,right, you wouldn't be involved in it
in any way, but there arethere are there are those that argue that
really to really know the kind ofthe language and and really what's going on
there, you really have to havea more more sort of skin in the
game, as it were. SoI was a volunteer in all these places,
(09:52):
so I was not just having informalconversations. I was actually helping the
service users in the same way thatafter a while the staff. And it
also gave me a really interesting insightinto the service tensions as well as the
members of staff as well and theirstruggles in a way that I wouldn't have
been able to see if I wasjust on the kind of periphery as it
were, not that I sort ofhad a side any of this. Really
(10:16):
I was as open as possible,so that so that was kind of my
main part, and I also didsome more conventional in depth interviews as well
with obviously with individuals as I asI kind of got to know them,
and I use something called SNA.SNA is something called social network analysis,
(10:37):
so that's where in the individual's name, their their their connections, so that
there's a couple of different variations,but I was using it, I was
trying to use it, and it'snot really been done that way before.
I'm trying to use it quite aqualitative way to really kind of tell a
story of social devastation really for wantof a better word. So it kind
(10:58):
of entails participants essentially giving all theirall their connections in the in their social
networks and specifically what they're getting fromthose from from those connections as well,
and just I'm just like, likethe nature of those nature and the type
of bonds that that they kind ofhave, which I'm which I'm trying to
(11:20):
now as I'm currently writing up,tie all this together so in theory it
will be a consistent narrative as itwere, right that I'm able to back
up with something that's that's kind ofpartially quantitative but mostly qualitative. I think
I think it allows for in inyou know, an unusual perspective and quite
insightful, and I hope and youmentioned always being open volunteering there, so
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whether people always aware that you area research yourself, you're quite quite open
getting the content in that respect.Yeah, so yeah, so this is
always are always a controversial subject,right as the as the blurring of boundaries
and how far you go. SoI think you can. I think you
can only really figure stuff like thatout in the field, if I mean
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totally honest, you can. Youcan always have, you know, a
rough idea of how you of howhow forthcoming you're going to be, but
you're never really going to know untilyou're in that situation and what works and
what doesn't. So I did Idid have a more general plan of being
as kind of I don't know howi'd say it. You know, i'd
be a bit more formal and empirical, and you know, I'm this you
(12:26):
know, impartial researcher with no feelings. You know, this this mindless automenton.
But obviously that's not that's not realityand that's not who we are.
So I kind of had to kindof like develop that and and I suppose
it became a I think what's talkedabout in the literature as a strategic undressing.
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So you so, yeah, soso you share to an extent that
improves the rapport, the level ofdata collection, you know, the kind
of the well that engenders trust,you know, things like that, right,
And I would kind of allow theparticipants to really kind of take the
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lead in that. So to giveyou an example, one when I was
doing one of one of my interviews, one of my participants was obviously talking
about how difficult some of the mentalhealth sort of like related strains where of
having an experience of homelessness, andthere was a there was a there was
a bit of a bit a bitof a discussion around therapy and and you
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know, I could tell that theywanted to say more, but they were
they were self conscious because obviously it'sa male speaking to another male, which
is which is also as also elevant. So I made the Madia decision then
to the to the disclose that Ihad years ago done therapy in myself and
found it really useful. And youknow that that that that that there was
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no no shame in doing that,and by disclosing that it then empowers that
person to be able to talk aboutsome of their experience of men's health.
Now I could have gone further thanthat and obviously spoke about my actual experiences
in detail, but obviously I feltthat would have been inappropriate obviously. So
there, so there there is thatline there of like how of exactly how
much you share as well. SoI was very kind of intentional about that,
(14:16):
like is this is this going tohelp them? Obviously? Is this
going to be inappropriate? It was? It was. It was an ongoing
tension and one that we almost navigateas ethogo research. And I wish I
could say there was a cut andfast rule for that, but there really
isn't. So it you know,in terms of my kind of how I
declared myself, that's that. Yeah, that's that's an interesting one. I
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think at first I was I wasI was too honest, I was too
I was too kind of transparent,and the fact that I was a you
know, a researcher on homelessness andmany of them found a little a little
bit intimidating and off putting, andit became a little bit of a barrier
for me actually, like connecting withservice users and staff as well, because
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there was this weird thing where sometimesstaff can see it was a little bit
like as a bit of an unknowncommodity and they think, well, what's
what what what's this person doing here? Like what's their intention type thing?
So I kind of dialed it backa little bit and was honest, but
I wouldn't darrelge too much, soyou know, I would just say,
you know, I may, yeah, I'm a researcher, you know,
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with an interest in homelessness, whichwhich obviously is true. And then if
if if they had more of aninterest and they wanted to know, then
then I would obviously tell them,But again I would allow them in a
much more organic way to kind oftell me how much they wanted to know.
If obviously, if I was interviewingthem, they obviously there's a full
consent and disclosure all and all thosethings, but in a kind of day
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to day kind of being there,that's kind of why how I would tend
to approach it. Yes, AndI'm just thinking skipping ahead just slightly for
a moment as well, do youdo you keep anonymity when you come to
write up your findings or is itagain that to them for because obviously well
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as you will know we all haveto go through you know, board committee
ethical board committees, and that canbe quite prohibitive at times, especially when
you're working with such a profoundly traumatized, you know, sort of complex group.
And I'm on the sort of extrememeasures of that as well, because
I'm looking at rough sleeping. Sothey tend to have, you know,
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all the worst things imaginable that canhappen to a person has happened to them.
So as much as I would liketo, because originally I kind of
wanted to have them almost as namedauthors, almost you know, because I'm
very much into ideas of sort oflike co ownership of like co production and
things like that. But for theirown safety, yeah, I really have
(16:53):
to anonymous obviously, like they willbe thanked and there's there's a discussion there
around you know, maybe I canuse the first name. I also will
be in contact with them in termsobviously of you're sharing all the insights and
and and results with them, butthere's also increased risk with the type of
method that I'm using, so becauseI'm essentially not only into interview them but
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about their ideas of you know,gender and things like that. But I'm
also capturing their entire social world.So so that's actually quite easy to identify
if you already know them as well. So I so, you know,
especially since I'm kind of representing thatvisually, that that there is a real
risk there that if I'm not careful, I might I might expose I might
(17:37):
expose who who they are. Andwhen you think about the kind of prevalence
of violence and that in their worldas well overwhelming as a victim, of
course, then that's a that's areal difficult one for me. So yeah,
yeah, yeah, that's really difficult, isn't it to get that balance?
Right? Okay, should we getshould we get stuck into some of
the findings then? So, isthere a common kind of theme that runs
(18:02):
through a lot of people's stories interms of how they've ended up on the
streets? So I just wonder ifthere's you know, this is just my
outsider looking in, but I oftenassume that it's linked to some sort of
addiction, you know, a drugaddiction, now cold addiction that comes first.
Is there a common link there?Yeah, just start off with a
nice and easy one. Yeah,yeah, exactly that straight in there,
(18:27):
Okay, Yeah, the causes ofhomelessness. So I mean we can we
can talk at a little bit aboutthe litter. That's helpful first, just
because we tend to so I thinkit was Fitzpatcha that talks about this,
but we tend to think about kindof roots in and out of homelessness.
(18:51):
So although obviously everyone is an individualand there are individual circumstances, there are
certainly kind of common routes that thatwe see coming you know, through that,
with that, with that, withthat that we will see you time
and time again, and and andsort of certain sets of or triggers and
(19:11):
risk risk factors and things like that. So speaking very very broadly, you
will often see eight year the presenceof a CES, you know, adverse
childhood experiences. That's that's that's reallycommon. There will be a lot of
cases. There'll be care leaders aswell, see a lot of that.
(19:34):
Often it's most often the kind ofsubstances and misuse. Well, at least
in my experience as well, isit is it is often later as they've
kind of been trying to cope andkind of you know, mediate for things
that may that that may have happenedto them. I'm obviously acknowledging that I'm
slightly biased in terms of my populationis male and roughly them mostly, So
(20:00):
these are these things can kind ofcombine early on and obviously like men and
many of them as well. Tobe honest, we'll we'll we'll talk about
you know, experiences of abuse andtrauma at various stages. If they are
as well, you think you'll notice, well like if you if you're a
(20:21):
woman, for example, that there'sobviously differences there in your in your in
your experience, so those syst theremight be some some some violence my partner
as well, not that not thatthat's that that's exclusive to uh, you
know, two women. So yeah, those are those are kind of the
kind of earlier ones and then beinga bit more a bit more specific in
(20:44):
my case, there's there's a coupleof things. So if you're if you're
if you're experiencing rough rough rough sleepingas well, the longer that you're in
that environment for the more of thesekind of experiences, these risk factors you're
picking up. Yeah, so youknow, your your health is the is
the is the tear rating, youknow, you're you're you're you're having men
(21:06):
mental health crisis, you know,multiple a lot often the case, and
there's a real sense in which thesethings build on top of each other and
and just compound. So it's it'sreally difficult to pick out, you know,
any one a lot of cases,one is primary, you know,
I would say, or one orone has become you know, you know,
(21:27):
you're more more dominant. So there'sa lot of with a lot of
the men that I that I speakto, go a few of them and
like are like like veterans as well. I think we're to see that.
So yeah, So to give youone good, good example, I spoke
to one gentleman who I've basically seenhis well his entire regiment and be annihilated
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in a in a war situation andclearly clearly had PTSD. And I after
he after he came back from thatkind of conflict, he wasn't able to
reconcile the things that he saw immediately, couldn't hold down a regular job.
And then I rememberin sort of sixmonths he was then engaging with services and
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was rough sleeping. But because thetrauma was so was so intense from that
experience, the main problem in hislife really was his uncontrollable substance issues.
But that was that obviously wasn't theonly cause. There'd been a real kind
of chronologically chronologically chronology very again achronology to to to to that trauma.
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But that but but because it's kindof hed been trying to self medicators that
were, you know, using theirvary various substances that had become the main
kind of problem in in in hislife. Yeah, so it's it's,
it's it's a it's a mixed bag, hever he is, it's it's it's
so it's so unique obviously to likeevery individual, sometimes they is just combine
(23:00):
in a really really tremendous or complexway. And I didn't. And it's
probably worth mentioning as well that froma societal point of view, we have
different ideas of what's considered vulnerable aswell. Yeah, so you know,
so historically single men aren't considered vulnerablein the same way that a woman or
(23:21):
a child is, so that thatalso has an impact on on whether they
end up on the shoot as well, which which which could be a cause
in of itself. Yeah, Imean, sorry, just throw that question
straight at you. The reason thatI asked that was because I want I
wanted to see if the factors thatoften need to homelessness were more specific for
(23:41):
men. So for example, youmentioned risk taking behavior. I'm thinking of
things like gambling, which we knowmales are more likely to get into than
females. I wondered, if youknow the pressures of being the breadwinner,
the provider, that sort of crisisand masculinity. I wondered if if there
is definite gendered reasons that leads peopleto homelessness, if that, if that
question makes sense, it makes perfectsense. And I I mean I I
(24:04):
I the same question. I mean, yeah, that's that that's kind of
what put me down on this road, like originally because I I wondered,
I want the same thing, becauselike we we do see that in other
context, you know, especially likein in sort of like prison kind of
like populations as well. You seemsome you see you see the same sorts
(24:27):
of presentations. Really so yeah,so in the kind of wholessness context,
well specifically rough sleeping, there is. Yeah, the the risk taking is
huge, it really really is.And yeah, you're absolutely right. For
(24:47):
for many of those men, they'rethere to kind of an initial you know,
a sort of an initial self medication. You know, whether you know,
you know, whether it is youknow, alcohol or kind of like
whatever else. So in a lotof cases, if things have happened to
them and they've not and for whateverreason they've not, they've not got the
(25:07):
help they needed. And unfortunately,the the solutions that many men turn to,
which may be okay in the shortterm, obviously, the longer that
they're engaging in those those behaviors,the more mild adaptive that they tend to
become, and the anual and justred again they they just tend to kind
of compound further as well. Manyof the men that I'd intervene spoke to
(25:33):
had been experiencing rough rough sleeping forfor a very long time. There were
there were guys that I spoke tohe'd been rough sleeping for decades, absolute
decades, and I'd almost been kindof institutionalized almost to those experiences. And
that kind of you know, islike that like inability of men to ask
for help doesn't go away, unfortunately, And you know, you would see
(25:59):
the same sorts of things, likeyou would assume that if if a man
is in a situation as horrendous asyou know, persistent experiences of homelessness,
you would think that they would bemore inclined to ask for help, but
that is not the case. It'snot the case. You know. I
would have guys, you know,sort of like intentionally masking, you know,
(26:19):
downplaying, you know, like concealinghow you know, like they're bad
injuries were you know, like Ihad one guy who his his thumb was
almost severed, you know, butwas still giving me a hand moving to
some of the food into the kitchen, and I was just like, what
what are you doing. It's fine, it's it's no where, it's no
(26:41):
big deal, to the point ofit being at times utterly absurd. But
when you were but when you realizethat they've lost many of the conventional ways
that they might perform their masculinity.In many ways, they kind of because
as you rate some of the otherareas where where they can still perform something.
Unfortunately, given the illusion of beingresilient and tough and stoic's as often
(27:03):
one of the only ones that youknow ways that they have left. It's
interesting, is it, because itseems to be coming from both sides,
because it's coming from the individual themselvesas well. In hand, if society
is saying where you're a single man, so you're not vulnerable. That's going
to sort of play into that aswell, isn't it. You mentioned that
word like hyper masculinity, so Ican see how that happens. Yeah,
(27:26):
it's it's it's difficult to kind ofit's a bit of a chicken and eg
scenario. Isn't it like to kindof unpick where the hyper masculine, where
the hyper masculinity is coming from,right, whether it's kind of the intensity
of the environment, or whether theseindividuals already have masculine and the kind of
going there. But my kind ofguess is there's a there's a real strong
(27:48):
interaction between the two, you know. So yeah, so you know that,
you know, men are being toldyou in all sorts of subtle kind
of ways that you know, tobe vulnerable is weakness, and that that
that doesn't just go away even whenyou you know, when you really need
the help. It's it's it's inyou both explicitly and you know implicitly,
(28:11):
and you really have to It takestime to you know, well years.
I mean we're still doing it now, trying to unpick those harmful aspects to
our our you know, our genderidentities, and you know, unfortunately,
when you're experiencing rough sleeping, youhave other things on your mind other than
the you know, the intricacies ofyou know, gendered scripts and all sorts
of other business. Yeah, howcould I ask you how you define hyper
(28:37):
masculinity? I know quite a fewsays you'll just use it, but how
do you use the term yourself?Oh right, okay, Yeah, So
for me, hypermasculinity is basically exaggerate, exaggerated tendencies of masculinity. Yeah,
so things like, yeah, soa willingness to use violence. A well,
(29:00):
they tend to have quite conservative viewpoints, so it's not always exclusively so,
but they can tend to be homophobicor sexists in some you know,
in some ways they see any sortof expression of emotion as a form of
vulnerability and something to really be suspiciousof. There's kind of yeah, there's
(29:25):
a there's just a an emphasis onphysical strength, you know, virility almost
in some cases. And you know, if not violence directly, at least
a willingness to use violence just tokind of like solve problems. But these
(29:45):
things are you know, complex.It's not as if, for example,
if you know, you can behypermasculine within without being homophobic for example.
But it's it's it's more of likea tendency. You tend to see these
sorts of things in these sorts ofpresence. Yeah, but these things are
obviously nuanced, and you know,you often have men engaging with them in
quite like reflective ways. So they'llthey'll kind of almost in like a pick
(30:08):
a mixed kind of thing. They'llpick and choose certain parts to this kind
of gender identity that they like andmaybe reject others. And in your experience,
so is it is it kind ofused as a defense mechanism you like
to you know, prison life,that you can't show weakness, you have
to defend yourself. Do you thinkit's being used in that way? Yeah,
(30:29):
So this is kind of what Iwanted to know because in the prison
context it's really common and I wonderedwhether, well, I mean, it
was obviously a feature of that environment, right, So you know, so
if you're if you're in the ifyou're in the sort of prison space,
well more of a sort of highcategory prison, I think it's it's a
bit different in the therapeutic prisons,but when you're in those kind of partial
(30:53):
environments and violence is so prevalent youfind that that's just you know, it's
it's really common for men to presentin that way. And you know,
I mean, David Maguire writes loadson this, and he's far better this
than me. But these sort ofsort of presentations, although they were yes,
problematic, and I'm not taken awayfrom the native aspects of those within
(31:17):
that context, they seem to obviouslybe doing something, you know, and
you know, nothing is accidental.All, you know, all behavior is
a form of of of you know, communication, like it tends to serve
a purpose. So that's kind ofwhy really that I sort of drew on
the on the prison literature. Sowithin you know, within there is a
(31:44):
mode of of survival and within thekind of rough sleeping space, which is
kind of what my findings are kindof now getting to really as I'm kind
of going through them. It's quitecomparable. It's it's it's very similar really
to kind of like a prison environmentbecause in many ways as well, like
(32:04):
existing on the streets is quite similarto being in and it's the institution as
well, like there's a there's obviouslythe continual presence of violence there's limited resources.
You constantly be surveiled all the time, maybe not by prison officers,
by members and members of the ofthe public, but you are still a
site of suspicion at all times.And it's obviously overwhelmingly male. There's a
(32:25):
lot of comparisons to be to besort of made there. And yes,
really, when you're when you're whenyou're on the streets and you have so
few material resources at your kind oflike the like disposal, one of one
of the few things you have leftis your ability to perform violence. Yes,
(32:46):
yeah, unfortunately, and also aswell that you know where you are
often vulnerable in all sorts of ways, that you might have an all amount
of mental health crisis going on,you know, you might well you will
be suffering all sorts of physical problemsas well. Showing that is also really
(33:07):
problematic as well. Yeah, somen and men were very very hesitant to
show any kind of problem that theythat they might might be having. Yeah.
So, like if you're in aservice, for example, and staff
are trying to help you know,you know, you know, say an
individual with the substance misuse problem,that they will not discuss that typically you
(33:30):
know, in kind of the commonarea, you know, like that staff
men would take them away to aprivate space and they have a very different
conversation there where they wouldn't feel thesame need to perform or the front to
pinch a bit of Goffin's work there. So yeah, it's it's it's very
very similar. I think I'm probablythe first to look at it in that
(33:51):
kind of space, but I willI will be making a lot of a
lot of direct comparisons because I wouldargue that they're very similar spaces. I
just wondered, Anon, if youcould give us another example. You know,
you mentioned the guy with a seventhfilm? Was there another example that
sort of in your two years ofresearch really stood out to you as sort
of a you know, an indictmentof the stoicism of masculinity. Oh?
(34:13):
Absolutely, I mean, this isthe thing with this type of research.
These these people stay with you,these stories, you know, these interviews,
they stay with you for years.They kind of live live rent free
in your head a little bit,not only because you're going through them all
their their transcripts, but they they'rethey're really impactful. But no, I
had one one, one fellow andhe must have been I don't know,
(34:37):
in his fifties, and you know, he did. He didn't present as
what you might expect to someone whowas a rough sleeper, who was you
know, I know its a bitof a stereotype, but I mean you're
like physically like in terms of youknow, dress, you know, things
like that you probably wouldn't have beenable to tell from the outside. So,
I know, struck up a conversationto see if I could help,
(35:00):
and we kind of got chatting,and he was telling me essentially that he'd
been rough rough sleeping for a coupleof years, and he'd been going from
essentially town to town, so he'dhe'd go from one city or town,
goes to the service there for fora few weeks and then and then move
on. So trying to sort ofdig deep a little bit, and you
(35:20):
know as to why, you know, why can't you know, engage your
services here and you know, getsome help and stuff and what and what
had happened is he's basically suffered akind of a relationship breakdown. So his
wife had left him, and asa as a result, his kind of
his daughter had kind of blamed himfor the kind of the kind of family
(35:44):
kind of breaking down and this wasjust too much of him to bear this,
this this was just too too difficult. So the kind of the loss
of his of his relationship with withhis daughter really just caused a bit of
an exidential crisis, and and that'sreally what pushed him. I think after
that he lost everything he just held, couldn't go. But what really struck
me about it, and what reallykind of links into the work I'm doing,
(36:05):
really is that he didn't know howto phone her. He had a
number, he knew, he knewwhere where she was, and he didn't
know how to emotionally get past that. He didn't know how to have He
didn't have the language to be ableto have that conversation, you know,
to be able to tell her whathe was experiencing and what he was going
(36:27):
through. And he'd been through someawful things, let me tell you,
and he just wasn't able to havethat. He wasn't emotionally literate enough,
and a lot of men aren't tohave this conversations. But he had a
phone, and he always made surethis phone was charged. And the only
reason he had that phone was forthe off chance that wonder she might phone
him and he'd been waiting almost twoyears for that phone call. That is
(36:52):
absolutely heartbreaking. And you know,I can still I can still see him
now and as I say, itstays there with you. It really really
does. Now, if he wasjust just a little bit more, you
know, aware of of his feelings, and I suppose had that I don't
know, skill set. I guessthat you know that that that that men
(37:14):
often struggle with to be able tojust just say how he felt and you
know, just just have and justbe vulnerable with his daughter. I have
no doubt he could have reconnected,but he just couldn't. Just couldn't.
And you know he could he couldbe doing that for another ten years.
Yeah, what what do you thinkwas the mental obstacle for him? There?
Is it? I just wonder.I bet, I bet so many
(37:36):
times you picked up the phone,put the number in, or typed out
a message and deleted it. Youknow, I bet that happened time and
time again. I just had whatwas what was the final blocker to get
him over the top. I thinkfor him it was the fact that he
that he saw himself as a failure, that he failed to prevent the breakup
of his marriage. He failed toprevent the loss of loss of their family
(38:00):
home, and just because I thinkhe was the breadwinner at that time,
he just he just blamed himself Ithink really for for for the loss of
everything, and he couldn't Yeah,he just couldn't cope with that, even
even though I don't think that thatany of that blame was fair and the
(38:21):
and these things do do just happen. Yeah, there was a lost,
lost, loss of control and shame, which is that you know, we
see huge amounts of shame with men, with men like this. Yeah,
yeah, I can imagine that isquite a common theme. Certainly, thank
you for sharing that story. That'snot totally Do you mind telling us where
you're up to at the moment andwhen we when we can start to read
(38:44):
a little bit more about this.No, that's fine, that's fine.
So I'm part time. So I'mon year five now, So I've just
I've just entered my right up yere. So I finished my field with last
year and I'm I'm just at thestage now of kind of starting to write
up hopefully my my you know,in my findings into something that's quite I
(39:08):
have I hope that will be quiteimpactful and we'll be able to kind of
make a real difference really to theto the to the sort of services on
the sort of front line. Theydon't they don't tend to have much of
what you might might call a genderedapproach. So I'm trying to really kind
of improve that really at the kindof like provision level. That's that that's
(39:30):
the kind of that's where my findingsaimed at right now. So I work
quite closely with the services because I'mtrying to really kind of work with services,
I mean not not not just homelessservices, but like potentially others that
come into contact with people who experienceit homeless, just like the police,
to really kind of provide that insightinto how these these presentations, you know,
(39:51):
how how this behavior presents and whatwhat this behavior is and just as
importantly where this behavior is coming fromas well. Thank you, Thank you.
And if people want to find outa little bit more or get in
touch with you, do you wantto give out some details? And yeah,
I am on LinkedIn, so it'sjust a Anton Roberts. I'm on
there. I'm always open to youknow, a chat, so feel free
(40:14):
to email me. That's a dotRoberts at MM, you do act at
UK and I am on Twitter aswell, which is social underscore nomad,
although I can't actually get into itright now because Musk blocked me, but
I am working on that. Yeah, but any any of those are absolutely
fine. Always happy to have achat. Brilliant. Well, thank you
very much for your time today,Anton, really really do appreciate it.
(40:37):
Fantastic problem. It's a pleasure.Thank you, Thank you. The Sociology
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(41:00):
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Hello, and welcome to the SociologyShow podcast. Before we get stuck into
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Thank you very much for listening.Let's go over to the interview. Hi.
You're listening to The Sociology Show,a podcast about absolutely anything to do
with the wonderful world of sociology.Whether you're a teacher, a lecturer,
a student, or just taking apassing interest. This podcast will look at
(01:30):
a range of issues from social class, ethnicity, gender, sexuality, religion,
crime, education, and anything elsethat sociology has to offer. My
name is Matthew Wilkin. In eachepisode, I will speak to someone working
in the field of sociology and letthem explain all about their own interests,
their research, and their experiences.So put your ear votes in, turn
(01:55):
the volume up, and let's besociology geeks together. A Hello and welcome
to The Sociology Show podcast. Wouldyou like to start by telling us a
little bit about who you are andwhat you do? Please, no problem,
Thanks for having me on the show. Really appreciate it. My name
is Anton Roberts and I am akind of social policy kind of researcher,
(02:17):
I would say, in the areaof sociology and criminology. So I am
a PhD researcher at i MMU,and I also work for PROUGH, the
Policy Evaluation and Research Unit as well. Great, thank you very much,
and we're going to talk about yourresearch, which is on homelessness, gender
(02:38):
and homelessness, but a little bitmore all about it for us. Yeah.
Yeah, So the official title isa Mixed Method Study into the Gender
Nature of Homeless Communities. So essentially, I'm kind of exploring both the kind
of presentations that you tend to seein those kinds of populations from from a
(03:00):
gender point of view, and I'malso kind of exploring the social capital elements
as well, so you know,the sort of social resources that do or
do not exist in in arguably quitehostile environments. And that's kind of you
know, in a nutshell or wouldyou like more? No, Yeah,
(03:23):
I can go all day, Matthew. I'm could have started right from the
beginning, because I think people areprobably aware that that homelessness is you know,
majority male. What sort of percentageyou were talking about, what ways
the breakdown of male to female.Oh right, okay, So if and
again it's always gets a little bittricky because there are types different types of
(03:43):
homelessness. So if if if,if you're talking about visible for forms of
homelessness, which is what I lookat, So I look at kind of
street street based, rough sleeping kindof form for homelessness, we're with that.
It's over while willly male, Imean really sort of ninety percent that's
yeah, that's that, that's typical. It's like sexually, I mean it's
(04:06):
a little bit more common now,but it's it's it's really rare generally to
see a woman in a in ain a service in that way. And
if they are, they're never alone, usually with a male. If if
you're talking more hidden homelessness as aswe would talk about it in the literature,
(04:27):
that is I think decidedly more female. But the problem with that is
obviously the numbers trying to trying tocapture that is incredibly difficult because you know
that they might be in in sortof very difficult home kind of like like
domestic violence situations which you know,we we we just wouldn't know unless they
and if they unless they had aninvolvement in service, or they might be
in some type of you know,shelter sort of type of thing, like
(04:50):
you know, for maybe nothing forwomen who are fleeing domestic violence. So
that it's it's actually really really reallydifficult for us, for me, or
any of us really as a ahomelessness researcher to give you an idea of
how large the hiding homelessess population isin the UK. I really couldn't tell
you. I wish I could,but yeah, and your research does it
take place in Manchester? I knowthat's where where you're based. Yeah,
(05:12):
yeah, yeah, So mine wasa primarily ethnographic over sort of the two
year period. So I did it. I did it across three three sites
in Manchester, so I was Iwas based in like three homelessness services that
cater to sort of street sleeping homelessprimarily. I would say I'd probably know
(05:38):
the answer to this because it's obviouslya major city. But how how bad
is the issue in Manchester? Imean, I'm based in Brighton. We've
got a big homeless problem here,and I just wondered how Manchester compares to
say the capital for example. Yeah, nowhe's worse than London obviously, but
I would say Manchester's probably probably secondon that unfortun that list, I would
(06:00):
say, and we we we wedo a large, a large problem here.
If you're talking about, you know, from the point of view of
of of like going to a counciland say, you know, I need
you know, assistance, please helpsort of this sort of thing, and
you know where you would have likean assessment from a local authority that kind
of shifts between one hundred two hundredthousand kind of you know kind of thing.
(06:24):
But that obviously doesn't mean that they'llget help. That's just where there's
there's an assessment going on basically thatthat that that happen kind of counts.
You know, it's usually kind ofplace sort of like a couple of hundred
kind of kind of ballpack figure interms of like rough sleeping. But again,
if you were to speak to theservices there, they would all say
(06:45):
that that there's far more than that, because most most of these guys will
avoid, you know, people fromthe council, like the plague. So
you know, if they're they're goingaround going oh, you know there's a
guy there's you know, they theythey won't won't be there. So when
I was all, well, allthe services I was I was at,
you would see you know, seventyyou know, sort of one hundred plus
(07:09):
in one day, you know,and some of those where sort of like
return to service users, but manyof them went, many of them went.
So yeah, I suspect it's alwaysit's always a larger problem than we're
aware of. Usually it's a particularhotspots in the city center as well.
Oh yeah, good question. Soyeah, so it's a bit of a
(07:32):
it's a tough one, so yes, but it's also so much more contested.
So obviously they get that there's there'sincreased footfall, right, So generally,
yes, then that there is moremore people experiencing homelessness there, but
there's all but there's also much morerestrictions in terms of where they where they
can can't go. So you know, so we have things like pspos like
(07:55):
Public Space protection or just for examplethat kind of criminalize lots of well quite
ordinary behavior really like drinking. Youknow, like if if if if you're
a student, say on a Friday, having a drink, that's that's usually
not a problem. But if you'reif you're unfortunately someone who's homeless and you're
doing the same thing, then itallows councils to criminalize in that way.
(08:16):
So we have we have, wehave a lot of those in operation so
so so yes, there is moreof them, but they're also regularly moved
on and it's quite a struggle forthem to exist in those spaces often.
That makes sense. Yeah, that'suseful. So let's get stuck into before
we sort of find learn a littlebit more about your findings. You mentioned
about how you did your research,so a couple of years ethnographic research.
(08:39):
Do you want to say a littlebit more about sort of your methodology if
you like, Yeah, absolutely somine's Mine's a mixed method study. So
I kind of drew on a coupleof different pieces. My main bulk is
ethnographic, just just because that's whatI've loved the most, even before I
was involved in research. I thinkis really the only way that you can
really understand the social context is byimmersing yourself in it. You know.
(09:03):
I was very kind of influenced bythe kind of earlier like Margaret Meade,
kind of more anthropological kind of work, and I was loved idea of immersing
myself and basing myself there so thatso that was the I suppose the largest
element where I would use a versionof ethnography called at home ethnography. So
that's where you where you actually imbedyourself within the organization. So you know,
(09:28):
with sort of like traditional hardcore,you know, you would sort of
be a fly in the war,right, you wouldn't be involved in it
in any way, but there arethere are there are those that argue that
really to really know the kind ofthe language and and really what's going on
there, you really have to havea more more sort of skin in the
game, as it were. SoI was a volunteer in all these places,
(09:52):
so I was not just having informalconversations. I was actually helping the
service users in the same way thatafter a while the staff. And it
also gave me a really interesting insightinto the service tensions as well as the
members of staff as well and theirstruggles in a way that I wouldn't have
been able to see if I wasjust on the kind of periphery as it
were, not that I sort ofhad a side any of this. Really
(10:16):
I was as open as possible,so that so that was kind of my
main part, and I also didsome more conventional in depth interviews as well
with obviously with individuals as I asI kind of got to know them,
and I use something called SNA.SNA is something called social network analysis,
(10:37):
so that's where in the individual's name, their their their connections, so that
there's a couple of different variations,but I was using it, I was
trying to use it, and it'snot really been done that way before.
I'm trying to use it quite aqualitative way to really kind of tell a
story of social devastation really for wantof a better word. So it kind
(10:58):
of entails participants essentially giving all theirall their connections in the in their social
networks and specifically what they're getting fromthose from from those connections as well,
and just I'm just like, likethe nature of those nature and the type
of bonds that that they kind ofhave, which I'm which I'm trying to
(11:20):
now as I'm currently writing up,tie all this together so in theory it
will be a consistent narrative as itwere, right that I'm able to back
up with something that's that's kind ofpartially quantitative but mostly qualitative. I think
I think it allows for in inyou know, an unusual perspective and quite
insightful, and I hope and youmentioned always being open volunteering there, so
(11:43):
whether people always aware that you area research yourself, you're quite quite open
getting the content in that respect.Yeah, so yeah, so this is
always are always a controversial subject,right as the as the blurring of boundaries
and how far you go. SoI think you can. I think you
can only really figure stuff like thatout in the field, if I mean
(12:03):
totally honest, you can. Youcan always have, you know, a
rough idea of how you of howhow forthcoming you're going to be, but
you're never really going to know untilyou're in that situation and what works and
what doesn't. So I did Idid have a more general plan of being
as kind of I don't know howi'd say it. You know, i'd
be a bit more formal and empirical, and you know, I'm this you
(12:26):
know, impartial researcher with no feelings. You know, this this mindless automenton.
But obviously that's not that's not realityand that's not who we are.
So I kind of had to kindof like develop that and and I suppose
it became a I think what's talkedabout in the literature as a strategic undressing.
(12:46):
So you so, yeah, soso you share to an extent that
improves the rapport, the level ofdata collection, you know, the kind
of the well that engenders trust,you know, things like that, right,
And I would kind of allow theparticipants to really kind of take the
(13:09):
lead in that. So to giveyou an example, one when I was
doing one of one of my interviews, one of my participants was obviously talking
about how difficult some of the mentalhealth sort of like related strains where of
having an experience of homelessness, andthere was a there was a there was
a bit of a bit a bitof a discussion around therapy and and you
(13:31):
know, I could tell that theywanted to say more, but they were
they were self conscious because obviously it'sa male speaking to another male, which
is which is also as also elevant. So I made the Madia decision then
to the to the disclose that Ihad years ago done therapy in myself and
found it really useful. And youknow that that that that that there was
(13:52):
no no shame in doing that,and by disclosing that it then empowers that
person to be able to talk aboutsome of their experience of men's health.
Now I could have gone further thanthat and obviously spoke about my actual experiences
in detail, but obviously I feltthat would have been inappropriate obviously. So
there, so there there is thatline there of like how of exactly how
much you share as well. SoI was very kind of intentional about that,
(14:16):
like is this is this going tohelp them? Obviously? Is this
going to be inappropriate? It was? It was. It was an ongoing
tension and one that we almost navigateas ethogo research. And I wish I
could say there was a cut andfast rule for that, but there really
isn't. So it you know,in terms of my kind of how I
declared myself, that's that. Yeah, that's that's an interesting one. I
(14:39):
think at first I was I wasI was too honest, I was too
I was too kind of transparent,and the fact that I was a you
know, a researcher on homelessness andmany of them found a little a little
bit intimidating and off putting, andit became a little bit of a barrier
for me actually, like connecting withservice users and staff as well, because
(15:03):
there was this weird thing where sometimesstaff can see it was a little bit
like as a bit of an unknowncommodity and they think, well, what's
what what what's this person doing here? Like what's their intention type thing?
So I kind of dialed it backa little bit and was honest, but
I wouldn't darrelge too much, soyou know, I would just say,
you know, I may, yeah, I'm a researcher, you know,
(15:24):
with an interest in homelessness, whichwhich obviously is true. And then if
if if they had more of aninterest and they wanted to know, then
then I would obviously tell them,But again I would allow them in a
much more organic way to kind oftell me how much they wanted to know.
If obviously, if I was interviewingthem, they obviously there's a full
consent and disclosure all and all thosethings, but in a kind of day
(15:46):
to day kind of being there,that's kind of why how I would tend
to approach it. Yes, AndI'm just thinking skipping ahead just slightly for
a moment as well, do youdo you keep anonymity when you come to
write up your findings or is itagain that to them for because obviously well
(16:07):
as you will know we all haveto go through you know, board committee
ethical board committees, and that canbe quite prohibitive at times, especially when
you're working with such a profoundly traumatized, you know, sort of complex group.
And I'm on the sort of extrememeasures of that as well, because
I'm looking at rough sleeping. Sothey tend to have, you know,
(16:30):
all the worst things imaginable that canhappen to a person has happened to them.
So as much as I would liketo, because originally I kind of
wanted to have them almost as namedauthors, almost you know, because I'm
very much into ideas of sort oflike co ownership of like co production and
things like that. But for theirown safety, yeah, I really have
(16:53):
to anonymous obviously, like they willbe thanked and there's there's a discussion there
around you know, maybe I canuse the first name. I also will
be in contact with them in termsobviously of you're sharing all the insights and
and and results with them, butthere's also increased risk with the type of
method that I'm using, so becauseI'm essentially not only into interview them but
(17:15):
about their ideas of you know,gender and things like that. But I'm
also capturing their entire social world.So so that's actually quite easy to identify
if you already know them as well. So I so, you know,
especially since I'm kind of representing thatvisually, that that there is a real
risk there that if I'm not careful, I might I might expose I might
(17:37):
expose who who they are. Andwhen you think about the kind of prevalence
of violence and that in their worldas well overwhelming as a victim, of
course, then that's a that's areal difficult one for me. So yeah,
yeah, yeah, that's really difficult, isn't it to get that balance?
Right? Okay, should we getshould we get stuck into some of
the findings then? So, isthere a common kind of theme that runs
(18:02):
through a lot of people's stories interms of how they've ended up on the
streets? So I just wonder ifthere's you know, this is just my
outsider looking in, but I oftenassume that it's linked to some sort of
addiction, you know, a drugaddiction, now cold addiction that comes first.
Is there a common link there?Yeah, just start off with a
nice and easy one. Yeah,yeah, exactly that straight in there,
(18:27):
Okay, Yeah, the causes ofhomelessness. So I mean we can we
can talk at a little bit aboutthe litter. That's helpful first, just
because we tend to so I thinkit was Fitzpatcha that talks about this,
but we tend to think about kindof roots in and out of homelessness.
(18:51):
So although obviously everyone is an individualand there are individual circumstances, there are
certainly kind of common routes that thatwe see coming you know, through that,
with that, with that, withthat that we will see you time
and time again, and and andsort of certain sets of or triggers and
(19:11):
risk risk factors and things like that. So speaking very very broadly, you
will often see eight year the presenceof a CES, you know, adverse
childhood experiences. That's that's that's reallycommon. There will be a lot of
cases. There'll be care leaders aswell, see a lot of that.
(19:34):
Often it's most often the kind ofsubstances and misuse. Well, at least
in my experience as well, isit is it is often later as they've
kind of been trying to cope andkind of you know, mediate for things
that may that that may have happenedto them. I'm obviously acknowledging that I'm
slightly biased in terms of my populationis male and roughly them mostly, So
(20:00):
these are these things can kind ofcombine early on and obviously like men and
many of them as well. Tobe honest, we'll we'll we'll talk about
you know, experiences of abuse andtrauma at various stages. If they are
as well, you think you'll notice, well like if you if you're a
(20:21):
woman, for example, that there'sobviously differences there in your in your in
your experience, so those syst theremight be some some some violence my partner
as well, not that not thatthat's that that's exclusive to uh, you
know, two women. So yeah, those are those are kind of the
kind of earlier ones and then beinga bit more a bit more specific in
(20:44):
my case, there's there's a coupleof things. So if you're if you're
if you're experiencing rough rough rough sleepingas well, the longer that you're in
that environment for the more of thesekind of experiences, these risk factors you're
picking up. Yeah, so youknow, your your health is the is
the is the tear rating, youknow, you're you're you're you're having men
(21:06):
mental health crisis, you know,multiple a lot often the case, and
there's a real sense in which thesethings build on top of each other and
and just compound. So it's it'sreally difficult to pick out, you know,
any one a lot of cases,one is primary, you know,
I would say, or one orone has become you know, you know,
(21:27):
you're more more dominant. So there'sa lot of with a lot of
the men that I that I speakto, go a few of them and
like are like like veterans as well. I think we're to see that.
So yeah, So to give youone good, good example, I spoke
to one gentleman who I've basically seenhis well his entire regiment and be annihilated
(21:52):
in a in a war situation andclearly clearly had PTSD. And I after
he after he came back from thatkind of conflict, he wasn't able to
reconcile the things that he saw immediately, couldn't hold down a regular job.
And then I rememberin sort of sixmonths he was then engaging with services and
(22:14):
was rough sleeping. But because thetrauma was so was so intense from that
experience, the main problem in hislife really was his uncontrollable substance issues.
But that was that obviously wasn't theonly cause. There'd been a real kind
of chronologically chronologically chronology very again achronology to to to to that trauma.
(22:36):
But that but but because it's kindof hed been trying to self medicators that
were, you know, using theirvary various substances that had become the main
kind of problem in in in hislife. Yeah, so it's it's,
it's it's a it's a mixed bag, hever he is, it's it's it's
so it's so unique obviously to likeevery individual, sometimes they is just combine
(23:00):
in a really really tremendous or complexway. And I didn't. And it's
probably worth mentioning as well that froma societal point of view, we have
different ideas of what's considered vulnerable aswell. Yeah, so you know,
so historically single men aren't considered vulnerablein the same way that a woman or
(23:21):
a child is, so that thatalso has an impact on on whether they
end up on the shoot as well, which which which could be a cause
in of itself. Yeah, Imean, sorry, just throw that question
straight at you. The reason thatI asked that was because I want I
wanted to see if the factors thatoften need to homelessness were more specific for
(23:41):
men. So for example, youmentioned risk taking behavior. I'm thinking of
things like gambling, which we knowmales are more likely to get into than
females. I wondered, if youknow the pressures of being the breadwinner,
the provider, that sort of crisisand masculinity. I wondered if if there
is definite gendered reasons that leads peopleto homelessness, if that, if that
question makes sense, it makes perfectsense. And I I mean I I
(24:04):
I the same question. I mean, yeah, that's that that's kind of
what put me down on this road, like originally because I I wondered,
I want the same thing, becauselike we we do see that in other
context, you know, especially likein in sort of like prison kind of
like populations as well. You seemsome you see you see the same sorts
(24:27):
of presentations. Really so yeah,so in the kind of wholessness context,
well specifically rough sleeping, there is. Yeah, the the risk taking is
huge, it really really is.And yeah, you're absolutely right. For
(24:47):
for many of those men, they'rethere to kind of an initial you know,
a sort of an initial self medication. You know, whether you know,
you know, whether it is youknow, alcohol or kind of like
whatever else. So in a lotof cases, if things have happened to
them and they've not and for whateverreason they've not, they've not got the
(25:07):
help they needed. And unfortunately,the the solutions that many men turn to,
which may be okay in the shortterm, obviously, the longer that
they're engaging in those those behaviors,the more mild adaptive that they tend to
become, and the anual and justred again they they just tend to kind
of compound further as well. Manyof the men that I'd intervene spoke to
(25:33):
had been experiencing rough rough sleeping forfor a very long time. There were
there were guys that I spoke tohe'd been rough sleeping for decades, absolute
decades, and I'd almost been kindof institutionalized almost to those experiences. And
that kind of you know, islike that like inability of men to ask
for help doesn't go away, unfortunately, And you know, you would see
(25:59):
the same sorts of things, likeyou would assume that if if a man
is in a situation as horrendous asyou know, persistent experiences of homelessness,
you would think that they would bemore inclined to ask for help, but
that is not the case. It'snot the case. You know. I
would have guys, you know,sort of like intentionally masking, you know,
(26:19):
downplaying, you know, like concealinghow you know, like they're bad
injuries were you know, like Ihad one guy who his his thumb was
almost severed, you know, butwas still giving me a hand moving to
some of the food into the kitchen, and I was just like, what
what are you doing. It's fine, it's it's no where, it's no
(26:41):
big deal, to the point ofit being at times utterly absurd. But
when you were but when you realizethat they've lost many of the conventional ways
that they might perform their masculinity.In many ways, they kind of because
as you rate some of the otherareas where where they can still perform something.
Unfortunately, given the illusion of beingresilient and tough and stoic's as often
(27:03):
one of the only ones that youknow ways that they have left. It's
interesting, is it, because itseems to be coming from both sides,
because it's coming from the individual themselvesas well. In hand, if society
is saying where you're a single man, so you're not vulnerable. That's going
to sort of play into that aswell, isn't it. You mentioned that
word like hyper masculinity, so Ican see how that happens. Yeah,
(27:26):
it's it's it's difficult to kind ofit's a bit of a chicken and eg
scenario. Isn't it like to kindof unpick where the hyper masculine, where
the hyper masculinity is coming from,right, whether it's kind of the intensity
of the environment, or whether theseindividuals already have masculine and the kind of
going there. But my kind ofguess is there's a there's a real strong
(27:48):
interaction between the two, you know. So yeah, so you know that,
you know, men are being toldyou in all sorts of subtle kind
of ways that you know, tobe vulnerable is weakness, and that that
that doesn't just go away even whenyou you know, when you really need
the help. It's it's it's inyou both explicitly and you know implicitly,
(28:11):
and you really have to It takestime to you know, well years.
I mean we're still doing it now, trying to unpick those harmful aspects to
our our you know, our genderidentities, and you know, unfortunately,
when you're experiencing rough sleeping, youhave other things on your mind other than
the you know, the intricacies ofyou know, gendered scripts and all sorts
of other business. Yeah, howcould I ask you how you define hyper
(28:37):
masculinity? I know quite a fewsays you'll just use it, but how
do you use the term yourself?Oh right, okay, Yeah, So
for me, hypermasculinity is basically exaggerate, exaggerated tendencies of masculinity. Yeah,
so things like, yeah, soa willingness to use violence. A well,
(29:00):
they tend to have quite conservative viewpoints, so it's not always exclusively so,
but they can tend to be homophobicor sexists in some you know,
in some ways they see any sortof expression of emotion as a form of
vulnerability and something to really be suspiciousof. There's kind of yeah, there's
(29:25):
a there's just a an emphasis onphysical strength, you know, virility almost
in some cases. And you know, if not violence directly, at least
a willingness to use violence just tokind of like solve problems. But these
(29:45):
things are you know, complex.It's not as if, for example,
if you know, you can behypermasculine within without being homophobic for example.
But it's it's it's more of likea tendency. You tend to see these
sorts of things in these sorts ofpresence. Yeah, but these things are
obviously nuanced, and you know,you often have men engaging with them in
quite like reflective ways. So they'llthey'll kind of almost in like a pick
(30:08):
a mixed kind of thing. They'llpick and choose certain parts to this kind
of gender identity that they like andmaybe reject others. And in your experience,
so is it is it kind ofused as a defense mechanism you like
to you know, prison life,that you can't show weakness, you have
to defend yourself. Do you thinkit's being used in that way? Yeah,
(30:29):
So this is kind of what Iwanted to know because in the prison
context it's really common and I wonderedwhether, well, I mean, it
was obviously a feature of that environment, right, So you know, so
if you're if you're in the ifyou're in the sort of prison space,
well more of a sort of highcategory prison, I think it's it's a
bit different in the therapeutic prisons,but when you're in those kind of partial
(30:53):
environments and violence is so prevalent youfind that that's just you know, it's
it's really common for men to presentin that way. And you know,
I mean, David Maguire writes loadson this, and he's far better this
than me. But these sort ofsort of presentations, although they were yes,
problematic, and I'm not taken awayfrom the native aspects of those within
(31:17):
that context, they seem to obviouslybe doing something, you know, and
you know, nothing is accidental.All, you know, all behavior is
a form of of of you know, communication, like it tends to serve
a purpose. So that's kind ofwhy really that I sort of drew on
the on the prison literature. Sowithin you know, within there is a
(31:44):
mode of of survival and within thekind of rough sleeping space, which is
kind of what my findings are kindof now getting to really as I'm kind
of going through them. It's quitecomparable. It's it's it's very similar really
to kind of like a prison environmentbecause in many ways as well, like
(32:04):
existing on the streets is quite similarto being in and it's the institution as
well, like there's a there's obviouslythe continual presence of violence there's limited resources.
You constantly be surveiled all the time, maybe not by prison officers,
by members and members of the ofthe public, but you are still a
site of suspicion at all times.And it's obviously overwhelmingly male. There's a
(32:25):
lot of comparisons to be to besort of made there. And yes,
really, when you're when you're whenyou're on the streets and you have so
few material resources at your kind oflike the like disposal, one of one
of the few things you have leftis your ability to perform violence. Yes,
(32:46):
yeah, unfortunately, and also aswell that you know where you are
often vulnerable in all sorts of ways, that you might have an all amount
of mental health crisis going on,you know, you might well you will
be suffering all sorts of physical problemsas well. Showing that is also really
(33:07):
problematic as well. Yeah, somen and men were very very hesitant to
show any kind of problem that theythat they might might be having. Yeah.
So, like if you're in aservice, for example, and staff
are trying to help you know,you know, you know, say an
individual with the substance misuse problem,that they will not discuss that typically you
(33:30):
know, in kind of the commonarea, you know, like that staff
men would take them away to aprivate space and they have a very different
conversation there where they wouldn't feel thesame need to perform or the front to
pinch a bit of Goffin's work there. So yeah, it's it's it's very
very similar. I think I'm probablythe first to look at it in that
(33:51):
kind of space, but I willI will be making a lot of a
lot of direct comparisons because I wouldargue that they're very similar spaces. I
just wondered, Anon, if youcould give us another example. You know,
you mentioned the guy with a seventhfilm? Was there another example that
sort of in your two years ofresearch really stood out to you as sort
of a you know, an indictmentof the stoicism of masculinity. Oh?
(34:13):
Absolutely, I mean, this isthe thing with this type of research.
These these people stay with you,these stories, you know, these interviews,
they stay with you for years.They kind of live live rent free
in your head a little bit,not only because you're going through them all
their their transcripts, but they they'rethey're really impactful. But no, I
had one one, one fellow andhe must have been I don't know,
(34:37):
in his fifties, and you know, he did. He didn't present as
what you might expect to someone whowas a rough sleeper, who was you
know, I know its a bitof a stereotype, but I mean you're
like physically like in terms of youknow, dress, you know, things
like that you probably wouldn't have beenable to tell from the outside. So,
I know, struck up a conversationto see if I could help,
(35:00):
and we kind of got chatting,and he was telling me essentially that he'd
been rough rough sleeping for a coupleof years, and he'd been going from
essentially town to town, so he'dhe'd go from one city or town,
goes to the service there for fora few weeks and then and then move
on. So trying to sort ofdig deep a little bit, and you
(35:20):
know as to why, you know, why can't you know, engage your
services here and you know, getsome help and stuff and what and what
had happened is he's basically suffered akind of a relationship breakdown. So his
wife had left him, and asa as a result, his kind of
his daughter had kind of blamed himfor the kind of the kind of family
(35:44):
kind of breaking down and this wasjust too much of him to bear this,
this this was just too too difficult. So the kind of the loss
of his of his relationship with withhis daughter really just caused a bit of
an exidential crisis, and and that'sreally what pushed him. I think after
that he lost everything he just held, couldn't go. But what really struck
me about it, and what reallykind of links into the work I'm doing,
(36:05):
really is that he didn't know howto phone her. He had a
number, he knew, he knewwhere where she was, and he didn't
know how to emotionally get past that. He didn't know how to have He
didn't have the language to be ableto have that conversation, you know,
to be able to tell her whathe was experiencing and what he was going
(36:27):
through. And he'd been through someawful things, let me tell you,
and he just wasn't able to havethat. He wasn't emotionally literate enough,
and a lot of men aren't tohave this conversations. But he had a
phone, and he always made surethis phone was charged. And the only
reason he had that phone was forthe off chance that wonder she might phone
him and he'd been waiting almost twoyears for that phone call. That is
(36:52):
absolutely heartbreaking. And you know,I can still I can still see him
now and as I say, itstays there with you. It really really
does. Now, if he wasjust just a little bit more, you
know, aware of of his feelings, and I suppose had that I don't
know, skill set. I guessthat you know that that that that men
(37:14):
often struggle with to be able tojust just say how he felt and you
know, just just have and justbe vulnerable with his daughter. I have
no doubt he could have reconnected,but he just couldn't. Just couldn't.
And you know he could he couldbe doing that for another ten years.
Yeah, what what do you thinkwas the mental obstacle for him? There?
Is it? I just wonder.I bet, I bet so many
(37:36):
times you picked up the phone,put the number in, or typed out
a message and deleted it. Youknow, I bet that happened time and
time again. I just had whatwas what was the final blocker to get
him over the top. I thinkfor him it was the fact that he
that he saw himself as a failure, that he failed to prevent the breakup
of his marriage. He failed toprevent the loss of loss of their family
(38:00):
home, and just because I thinkhe was the breadwinner at that time,
he just he just blamed himself Ithink really for for for the loss of
everything, and he couldn't Yeah,he just couldn't cope with that, even
even though I don't think that thatany of that blame was fair and the
(38:21):
and these things do do just happen. Yeah, there was a lost,
lost, loss of control and shame, which is that you know, we
see huge amounts of shame with men, with men like this. Yeah,
yeah, I can imagine that isquite a common theme. Certainly, thank
you for sharing that story. That'snot totally Do you mind telling us where
you're up to at the moment andwhen we when we can start to read
(38:44):
a little bit more about this.No, that's fine, that's fine.
So I'm part time. So I'mon year five now, So I've just
I've just entered my right up yere. So I finished my field with last
year and I'm I'm just at thestage now of kind of starting to write
up hopefully my my you know,in my findings into something that's quite I
(39:08):
have I hope that will be quiteimpactful and we'll be able to kind of
make a real difference really to theto the to the sort of services on
the sort of front line. Theydon't they don't tend to have much of
what you might might call a genderedapproach. So I'm trying to really kind
of improve that really at the kindof like provision level. That's that that's
(39:30):
the kind of that's where my findingsaimed at right now. So I work
quite closely with the services because I'mtrying to really kind of work with services,
I mean not not not just homelessservices, but like potentially others that
come into contact with people who experienceit homeless, just like the police,
to really kind of provide that insightinto how these these presentations, you know,
(39:51):
how how this behavior presents and whatwhat this behavior is and just as
importantly where this behavior is coming fromas well. Thank you, Thank you.
And if people want to find outa little bit more or get in
touch with you, do you wantto give out some details? And yeah,
I am on LinkedIn, so it'sjust a Anton Roberts. I'm on
there. I'm always open to youknow, a chat, so feel free
(40:14):
to email me. That's a dotRoberts at MM, you do act at
UK and I am on Twitter aswell, which is social underscore nomad,
although I can't actually get into itright now because Musk blocked me, but
I am working on that. Yeah, but any any of those are absolutely
fine. Always happy to have achat. Brilliant. Well, thank you
very much for your time today,Anton, really really do appreciate it.
(40:37):
Fantastic problem. It's a pleasure.Thank you, Thank you. The Sociology
Show podcast relies on the kind contributionsof sponsorship and donations. If you enjoy
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(41:00):
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