August 28, 2023 • 48 mins
In this episode, Matthew talks to Professor Les Back and Dr Isaac Hoff about the rise of hooliganism and anti social behaviour at football grounds post covid. Ideas around drug use, masculinity, cultural resistance, subcultures and moral panics are all discussed. Is the problem really as bad as the media make out it is?
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Episode Transcript
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(00:03):
Hi, you're listening to The SociologyShow, a podcast about absolutely anything to
do with the wonderful world of sociology. Whether you're a teacher, a lectra,
a student, or just taking apassing interest. This podcast will look
at a range of issues from socialcasts, ethnicity, gender, sexuality,
religion, crime, education, andanything else this sociology has to offer.
(00:29):
My name is Matthew Wilkin. Ineach episode, I will speak to someone
working in the field of sociology andlet them explain all about their own interests,
their research, and their experiences.So put your ear phones in,
turn the volume up, and let'sbe sociology gigs together, right, Hello,
and welcome to the Sociology Show podcast. This episode is going to be
(00:52):
all about football, hooliganism and antisocial behavior. I'm delighted to be joined
by Professor Lsbach who's been on theshow before. Nice see you again,
Let's and also doctor Isaac Cough.So let's do some introductions to start with.
So let's tell us a little bitabout who you are, most importantly
who you support of course. Ah, well, it's great to be involved
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in your show again. Matthew.Always a delight But yeah, my name
is Les Bag. I teach sociologyat the University of Glasgow. Before that,
I taught at Goldsmiths College, whichis a kind of link to to
my team because I'm a South Londonerand my team's Millwarthough and my family are
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a traditionalist Palace supporters. I wentwent a different way and so I've been
at the devotee of Mill Football Clubpretty much all my life. Fantastic,
thank you, and Isaac tell usa little bit bit self. Yeah,
I'm Isaac. I'm a to immediatequarter in society at the University of Glasgow.
(02:00):
Thanks for inviting me on. It'sreally nice to be here for the
first time talking about something that I'mvery passionate about. I also work at
the University of Glasgow and my teamis Less City. The roller coaster of
emotions that is supporting that team thedowns, but I think more back into
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our natural place now. I thinkthe world of being a Yo Yo team
suits is very well, but sincemoving to Glasgow, I do try and
follow a little bit of Partic Thistleas well. Thank you, thank you.
It's interesting to say the ups anddowns because I'm a Brighton fan.
If you're watching you can see.I'm a Brighton fan, by the way,
and in almost forty years I've beensupporting Brighton. We've been in all
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four divisions, we've been ninety secondin the league, and at the time
of recording we are top of thePremier League two games in. But I'll
take it, you know. Soit's been a fantastic, fantastic journey.
So guys, thanks, thanks forjoining me. Then, so we're going
to talk about football hooliganism. Thereare media reports, police reports, and
statistics that suggest post COVID we haveseen a return to anti social behavior,
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more arrests, more football violence,and it seems to definitely be on the
rise. I just wonder what's yourinitial thoughts. Obviously it's a it's a
culmination lots of different factors, butbut what would you attribute the main factors
to be for that rise? Isaac, Should I come to you first if
you don't mind, Yeah, Ithink I think it's interesting really thinking about
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in the context of post COVID.I think a lot of it would be
being pent up. I think havingspent you know, a year, two
years really being cooped up indoors,not really being able to have any kind
of in person social life, notbeing able to kind of go and do
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the things that you'd want to do. I think we'll play a big part
in it. And almost that kindof you know, that first time out,
really almost like that first time outand about in years and people really
kind of letting it all out,you know. I think that's a part
of it. I also think we'reliving in quite testing times for a lot
(04:15):
of people. I think there area lot of frustrations at you know,
plenty of things in terms of costof living, crisis, but also made
political frustrations as well that become expressedand I think are given voice through these
forms of violence, even though theymight not be explicitly you know, the
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same political demands, so to speak. So I think it's that mixture of
the two things really. And alsowhen we think about when you read things
about football who luganism or anti socialbehavior in grounds now, the prevalence of
cocaine, you know, being akind of becoming a very normal part of
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young people's in particular leisure practices,you know, in terms of whether it's
you know, boozing probably traditionally infootball now maybe shifting a little bit towards
that, and the impacts that wedidn't evitably have on people's state of state
of being. Really, it's interestingto say that because in preparation for the
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show, I just asked a fewfellow fans, what do you think,
and someone instantly said, it's simple, boost is expensive. Coke's got cheaper,
you know, that was their firstresponse. Yeah, and it is.
It is interesting thinking about that shiftin terms of you know, I
mean, I can only speak interms of you know, when you think
(05:39):
about leisure and going out and thingslike that, in terms of how it's
becomes that's you know, kind ofproliferated out from the nighttime economy traditionally in
terms of clubbing, bars and thingslike that, to become something that just
is what people do to kind ofget get up for things, you know.
And I think with ball as well, that kind of heightened sense of
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being an awareness kind of factor,and into the kind of I would say
that the kind of accenting, theenjoyment you get a being in football grounds
anyway, the atmosphere, the kindof back and forth, and then that
added elements feeding into you know,kind of you know, multiplying those senses
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and feelings. I guess it isreally interesting that that seems to become a
source of a normal thing people dothat foot. Now, let's if I
could come on to you as well, what were your initially thoughts. That's
right. I mean, I thinkthat the sort of patterns, the social
patterns of drug a drug use area feature in this And you know it's
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interesting too, isn't it. Ithink some of those sometimes those patterns tell
us something about the sort of changingnature of consumption and of commerce, and
also patterns of leisure and how thatreflects on social distinctions around class and masculinity
and those kinds of questions. Youknow, when you think about the association
of cocaine now it was very differentthan you know, ten years ago,
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fifteen years ago, and you know, not a kind of a glamorous elite
drug any longer. And I thinkthere's something about that. These are all
patterns and shifts I think as sociologiststhat are clues to wider, wider ways
in which social distinctions and distinction makingwork. But I would say as well,
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Matthew, you know, one ofthe things that's important always and one
of the kind of resources that sociologistsgive us, and sociology gives us is
the way in which we are constantlyalert to the limits of the way in
which moral categories get produced in society, which sort of label deviant behavior.
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In football, hululism has been proneto this. You know, there's no
doubt there's not to sort of beromantic of our violence or anything like that.
But you know, one of thefirst questions for us as sociologists is
to question the terms of the wayin which public concern is framed and understood.
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And I think that's one of thethings which is particularly relevant when we
think about football related violence and conflict, and to think, well, what's
going on there, what are theseaffects, allegiances and the way identities work,
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and way in which sports particularly playsa key role in providing a vehicle
for the expression of a sense ofself, of joy, of passion,
and sometimes those passions can spill overinto into more conflictual emotions. But I
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think that thing about it well,why sport is interesting because it's a place
we can see both the shape ofmoral concern and the panics that get circulate
in society, but also the wayin which people mobilize their sense of self,
their sense of place, and theirsense of belonging and just just wanting
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to pick up on what I said. They're thinking about the term football hooliganism
and the kind of traditionally class connotationsbetween football and working classness in the UK.
Anyway, It's it's interesting to thinkabout the ways in which hooliganism is
a term kind of invokes ideas ofthis braying mob, you know, essentially
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this lawless mob, which has beenused and is a brush that's been used
by tabloid newspapers in particularly it's tarworking class people, really, and I
think that kind of that used,that moralizing of working class p people as
potentially lawless has a kind of verylong history, a long political history,
(10:03):
right, And I think it's reallyinteresting to think about how those kind of
quote unquote concerns around collective working classlife or expressions of working class identity,
particularly in relation to football fandom,factors into so many things in the ways
in which you look out. Footballis police, and some might argue is
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over police in ways that other collectiveleisure based occasions, particularly relations to sport,
simply aren't. So I think it'sexactly right in thinking in kind of
drawing attention to the ways in whicheven the media framings of or mediatized framings
of, you know, football violence, say, actually is embedded within this
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kind of longer moral moralizing, analmost civilizing mission of you know, working
classes, which also is interesting interestingrelations football, you know as well,
in you know, when it wasfirst becoming a thing in its history,
you know, Victorian you know,well doers seeing football as a civilizing mission
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to the working classes, you know, as it means to instilling them proper
value. So I think it's reallyinteresting thinking about those moral aspects in the
ways in which it's spoken about aswell. In that respect, I did
wonder as we were coming into thispodcast, are we seeing kind of a
classic moral panic, because I haveseen some references to saying this is,
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you know, we're going back tothe dark days of the nineteen eighties.
Well I'm not sure about that,you know, I've I'm seeing more anti
social behavior recently. If I wasto put it bluntly, a lot of
young kids acting like dickheads on aSaturday, right, But to save back
to the eighties and what we wereseeing on the terraces, then I think
that's a stretch, is it not. I think it's a big stretch.
(12:01):
I mean, you know again,I think in a way a more interesting
problem for us to think about iswell, what do these patterns tell us
about both the shape of moral concernbut also the experience of life. You
know, and Millwall has always beenlike the exemplary hooligan club. You know,
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it's a weird thing that you know, being a fan and also just
experiencing going to football. It neverthat the image that you would see on
the tabloid in the tabloid press neversquared with what it was like to be
a fan and what it was liketo be in those crowds. And you
know, I remember hilarious at themoment Matthew, which is relevant to your
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club when there was concerns about therelationship between houganism and racism that a police
officer took me to once. Idid a project on on football culture and
multiculture and racism some years ago nowalmost twenty years ago, and a police
officer from from down in Brighton tookme to one side and said, oh,
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you know it was there was thisconcern about you know, Brighton fan
Zeke kiling in the crowd and itwas a complete misreading of the fact that
they were not not chanting see Carl, they were chanting sea goals, you
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know. And it's that kind ofthing which I think sport particularly is a
good place to think about how theseunfolded football particularly and so but the other
thing about this as well is thatyou know, the way in which football
clubs become a vehicle not just forfor for men and their passions for the
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game, but they do become avehicle for the way in which the lived
experience of class unfold, you know. And in a way I think is
it coming back or is it asbad as it was in the eighties.
I don't think that's an interesting questionto say, well, what is what
is circulating? And you know,a brilliant and useful theorists that I know
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that Isaac's also inspired by as atremendous sort of way of naming this.
Raymond Williams understands our experiences life asstructured forms of feeling, and those structured
forms of feeling, for Williams alwayshave what he would call a residual element,
that is, an element that's foragedin the past, as well as
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an emergent element that that which isemerging in the present and the interplay between
those two things and as well asa dominant feature feature that is being imposed.
And there's something I think about theway in which the sort of residual
aspects of class based experience are stillbeing mobilized within football culture. And maybe
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that's partly what is seeing interrupting thepresent, is that the legacy and the
residual elements of that of those ofthose affinities, of those commitments, those
passions, and also those allegiances andconflicts that are unfolding. I'm always struck
at Millwall. You know. Thegreat it's kind of call to for the
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Millwall fans is the Lions row.It's sort of wordless, you know,
here thousands of people chant that sortof drone which is like the Lions raw.
I'm really mindful these days of howshrill the sound of the lions or
is there. They're young voices.They're not the voices of people who were
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forged in the you know, earlyand mid twentieth century ecology of London's docks.
They're not. They're often young peoplefrom the hinterlands of southeast London who
are coming back to to New Crossand Deptford to commune with the residual aspects
of that cultural experience. Yeah,and just picking up from that, I
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think one of the really interesting things, especially about kind of football culture and
those kind of residual elements of class, we think about the complete transformation of
the way in which class has experiencedand how it's rooted in those kind of
economic forms of life, but alsoplaced based forms of life. I think
there's something really interesting leaping back tokind of hooliganism and that really kind of
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pioneering research from Lester in the eightiesand the nineties, thinking about ideas around
and expressing a kind of territorialization.You know, it's a means to kind
of, you know, articulate asense of place in defending a place that
you have a potential investment in,as you know, someone who might be
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from a kind of particular area orassociated with a particular club. I find
interesting with that kind of the Millwallexample you're talking about it there, les
is that notion of the people,like you say, that kind of image
of these kind of stereotypical you know, imaginaries of the working class that we
might associate with football fans of theseventies and eighties in relation to leorganism is
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gone. You know, that worldto some extent is gone. But actually
those notions perhaps of territoriality, butalso just coming together and having a sense
of collective you know, a realone of maybe the few instances in contemporary
life where people might not feel asoptimized or as individualized. You know,
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you are together as we're Millwall fansalways. It's like you, Matthew brightened
me Leslie, you know, oneof the few chances that you maybe have
or young people or people feel likethey have to feel like they're a part
of something bigger than themselves that representsa kind of connection to a world that
might have gone or a place thatthey aren't as actively rooted in anymore.
(18:07):
Maybe, Yeah, I did wonderif if some of it was a search
for a subculture, you know,particularly post COVID young men looking for something
something to do and be a partof. And something struck me. I
noticed at a Brighton game recently,and I actually had a chat with a
group of lads. They were dressedin what I would call casual gear,
right. They all had the StoneIsland on and some of them had the
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Acqua scoot them on and they werehaving a beer and they were singing in
a particular way. I don't thinkthey were actually up for a fight or
anything at all, not in anyway. In fact, they probably would
have run. I would have runwith them, you know, if it
all kicked off, without a doubt. But the image, the look,
the identity to be a part ofsomething that seemed to be more important than
the actual antisocial violence itself. Yeah, you see. I think as well,
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this is where, you know,the sort of sociological reflex to question
and the moral judgments that are circulatingis a really useful one because it stopped.
It makes us think more broadly andless narrowly about, you know,
accepting the terms of the sort ofmoral quandary or the moral dilemma that's circulating
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within the media and other places.And so I think that's exactly right to
be asking those questions about, well, what forms of collective affinity are being
mobilized, what are their bases,what are the resources? And you know,
I think it's not that thing aboutAnd it's the great lesson from Williams
is that the past never stays behindus. It never it's never lapsed,
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it's always socially alive. So theidea for Williams that those cultural references to
place or a family connection to aplace, say because they remain residual,
but they are they're not dormant,that they're a very much active so they
can shape. They can be oneof some of the resources that you know,
like the group of fans that you'redescribing, can draw on and whether
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it's you know, the fashion ofthe casuals that you know it's a little
bit dated now it comes back tolife. You know, it comes back
to life because it's not completely consignedto the past. And it's interesting thinking,
ye know, I was just thinkingabout that that kind of casual look
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when you were speaking, Matthew arethinking, you know that you get the
badge in think, you know,with the Stonies and the Stone Island things
and stuff like that. I dothink there is something very much in that
affinity to a kind of style anda look that again it's you know,
you classic Cli Sae. It's quiteso cultural. But I also think as
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well, questioning the returns to thedark days of the eighties, is going
back to that you only have togo to football grounds now and who's there
the probably class makeup of the crowdin terms of I mean, particularly with
Lester, you know, a lotmore probably racially diverse than it might have
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been in those days. That's goingto completely transform the feel of football,
you know, and some have arguedthat football has gone through it's shifted from
its kind of working class roots intosomething maybe a bit more middle class,
you know, the I can't saythe word, but you know, the
bourgeois even thing, the bourgeois imanthing. So it's also putting these kind
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of moral quandaries and articulations of collectivestyle and with kind of changes with who
goes to football, who's it pitchedat, who can afford to go to
football, particularly in the Premier Leagueand the Championship. You know, actually,
who are these people actually we're talkingabout, and how might they're kind
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of class, race, gender,but also sexual kind of identity tis in
the way in which they intermingle,interact with the dominant and the emergent to
constitute new forms of collectivity within football. But also how that might spill over
into those kind of passions of youknow, when it gets a bit you
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know, heated and violent and thingslike that. That's gonna also have an
impact on the ways in which thesethings are expressed. I think, you
know, yeah, I mean,I'll be visiting the AMEX tomorrow. It's
it's certainly a global international scene.You know. We get a lot of
Japanese fans at the moment supporting withToomer, and we've quite a lot of
South American players at Brighton. Itis a different atmosphere. So I'm just
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wondering, are we completely squashing ourhypothesis that football hooliganism is on the rises?
Is perhaps that not completely true andwe are just seeing a media depiction
of the very worst fans as opposedto a true reality. I mean,
I suppose it's all relative. Youknow. Maybe it's that thing of you
spend a long time, you don'thear a lot about it, and then
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you know, you have a relativespike in this kind of activity that becomes
more visible that it kind of lookslike maybe there is a you know,
it's a return to all these terriblethings. But you know, I think
it's about contextualizing it relatively as wellto what we have seen what we haven't
seen over maybe the last fifteen twentyyears, particularly in relation to English football.
(23:29):
Sorry, let's I'll cut you offa little better. No, it's
the same. There's a similar pointthat you're making. I mean, I
think that it's what question do weask? What questions is it posing?
That's the thing, you know,just thinking about the audience, your audience,
Matthew and students studying social I thinkthat's the that's the lesson here is
that we can't just be satisfied withthe way in which this question is posed
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within the media and within these reporting. It's not that those things aren't happening.
Of course, they are happening.There is something happening. There's a
shift. What that shift might signalis for us to think hard about,
you know. And I think thetruth is that there's been tremendous regulation and
surveillance of football as a form ofpopular culture, perhaps more than any other.
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Actually, and well, you know, the surveillance and policing of nighttime
spaces and dances and clubs is anotheranother another question, but and related.
But in a way it's like,well, okay, if there is a
pushback against those forms of regulation comingout of COVID, then what does that
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tell us? I think it doestell us something about the tussle, the
struggle that's going on around the expressionof self and unfolding of life, and
the way and that that sense ofan unfolding life is regulated and the push
and pull between those those things.I think that's that's what so interesting in
what's unfolding now. So let's say, you know, the football huganism is
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on the rise again sidelines the wayin which this kind of sphere of life
is incredibly regulated and incredibly policed,and just picking up from what as we're
saying again for students and things likethat, I think the questions that we
want to ask, and I thinkwhen we're thinking sociologically, particularly around something
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like sport or popular culture or expressionsof self, is that relationship between continuity
and change and always looking there's alwaysa kind of historical element to what we're
doing and how we want to thinkabout things as well, So it's always
thinking through well, relative to maybepre COVID football violence has gone up,
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but what are the trends and whatare the underlying issues that are driving that?
And also how do people make senseof that? You know, if
you speak to I'm sure the peoplewho are you, how you speak to
people who are involved in this andsocial behavior or whatever. They give you
a range of explanations that might speakto continuities in change, the emergent,
(26:11):
the residual, and however wants toframe it. And I think that's also
one of the most important things.Looping back to what you're saying, Matthew,
about we questioned a hypothesis, Well, not necessarily. It's just about
being attendant to continuity and change andthose kind of shifts that happen and now
they come to be expressed through everydayforms of engagement with popular culture and football.
(26:38):
In this instance, I guess yeah, because one of the things that
I was thinking is that I thinkthere's a lot more self pleating and regulation.
You know, I was thinking abouta couple of games that I went
to last year where there was somei'd call it idiotic behavior rather than violent
behavior post post game, and peoplewere calling out, don't do that.
You know, There's some lads kickingoff wing mirrors on cars as we were
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being marched the station. Other people, don't do that. Stop it,
don't be a dickhead mate, basically, people were saying. And similarly in
grounds, you know, I'd liketo think all our teams. If you
heard someone shout out on a horrificracist, homophobic comment, I think people
would call that personnel and they tellthe stewards. So I just wonder if
we're seeing more regulation of that andthat's perhaps warping our idea of how bad
(27:22):
it actually is. Yeah, Ithink that's right. I think that's right.
I mean, I think there's anapple. But you know, classically
how we would understood standing in termsof how to analyze a moral panic.
This process of amplification going on.Yeah, this is one of stand Cohen's
great concepts. You know, fromway back now in the seventies. You
(27:44):
see how the moral concern is amplifiedthrough the way these patterns of reporting.
And I would guess you're absolutely right, Matthew, about that process of regulation,
regulation of sort of kind kind ofclick collective fan self regulation and and
(28:04):
and actually determining what the parameters ofconduct is and what's what's out of order
and what's in order. You know. So I think that's definitely the case.
But I think, you know,there's something too about the desire for
sort of a sense of self ofsovereign, a sense of sovereign sell,
(28:27):
a sense of expressed culture that isthat he shared that I think is also
at play and the definition of howthose ideas of identity and belonging and place
and collectivity are being articulated. AndI think the way that that's operating in
(28:48):
public through football culture is always reallyinteresting. It's an interesting sign of something,
you know, those identities that arethat are either being discredited or suppressed,
and then the pushback against that process, you know, of of of
regulating and policing what's what's allowed,you know, And I think that football
(29:11):
culture has been a very powerful sortof sphere in which that struggle can unfold.
Yeah, And I think it's it'scoming to them ideas around contestation and
popular culture being a key site ofcontestation in relation to push back what is
and what isn't considered appropriate. Imean the notion that you know, people
(29:34):
will you know, obviously here incidencesof racist abuse in stadiums, homophobic abuse
to a particularly in relation to Brightontraditionally you know people you know, football
as a site. Where As yousaying people self regulating the way that is
(29:55):
different, and it does take intoaccount some that kind of prevent ginally takes
into accounts some elements and what wewould have once called progressive social and causual
change in the way in which thatchanges, the kind of parameters of exactly
what as we're saying, what isand what is considered not to be on
(30:15):
and all those kind of things.So I think it's it really I think
football culture more broadly, but youknow football, but popular cult more broadly.
It's it's that thing around contest station, you know, and the working
out of identities in relation to change, but also continuity as well. Yeah,
(30:37):
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(31:00):
you for your continued support of theshow. I might make this the last
question, but it's quite quite abig area. When I was asking people
in preparation for the show, whatdo you think it's down to? As
I said, people mentioned the ubiquityof cocaine use, financial crisis, post
COVID, and so on. Butthe word that kept from coming up time
(31:22):
and time again was masculinities. AndIsaac, I know you've written extensively about
this toxic masculinity. The term cameup, lost mails, not knowing where
they're going, directionists. How muchof this do you think this is about
masculine to user phrase that's used insociology, a lot of a crisis of
masculinity? Are we experiencing that fora lot of young men today? Do
(31:45):
you think that? I think?I mean, I'm not sure I fully
subscribed to the idea of a crisisin masculinity if we only have to look
at continue the continuing persistence of inequalitiesbetween men and women economically, socially,
(32:07):
culturally, and politically, I thinkto get at that notion, it's hard
to know. Really. I thinkit's it's a really difficult question because football's
long being what some would call gendertypes as a particularly mascularized space, right,
And I think in a way withthat kind of that the kind of
(32:29):
association with football and masculinity and aparticular form of masculinity, one that is
rooted in what Ray Win Connor wouldcall hegemonic masculinity right around exhibiting physical dominance,
primarily if we're going to talk aboutfighting right and defending ones honor and
etcetera, etcetera. I suppose,for for a long time, I think
(32:53):
it's almost it's a space where,in a way it could be argued I
think that it's expected to some extentof these kind of spaces that men may
or may not engage in these kindof masculinized practices which in other spheres of
(33:13):
their life would maybe be policed ina much more different way. In terms
of whether this is expressive of acrisis, I'm not sure. I don't
necessarily think so. But then ifwe put it in a broader context around
(33:35):
men and gender, if we seethe kind of around popularity of people are
Andrew Tap and the Manisphere, andthe kind of real insidious things that they
talk about and spread and that haveinfluence on really being overtly misogynistic, I
think if we put it in thatkind of broader context, there is clearly
something going on with men and masculinities. Whether these are expresses of a crisis,
(34:02):
I think it depends how we definecrisis. You know, are we
talking about men losing their relative statuscompared to maybe fifty years ago. Well,
who's that a crisis for? Youknow, it becomes an if we're
talking in those terms, it becomesone person's progress is the loss of another,
where actually we know that that's notnecessarily the case, and we shouldn't
(34:23):
use that as a justification maybe notto change these things, right, But
yeah, I think it's a verycomplicated, difficult question to end on.
But I think there's you know,it's something rooted in a very kind of
hegemonic form of masculinity I think,in which that it's a space where it's
(34:45):
expected in some extent to be expressed. And I think that's very much a
continuity with how we would see footballcult and football who organism, you know,
from the seventies onwards. Maybe Iwondered if you had any thought thoughts
on that too. Yeah, Imean I think that the crisis of masculinity
(35:07):
type way of thinking about these issuesreally it kind of it touches something and
confines us at the same time.For as like, I mean, what
is what is unfolding? It seemsto me are are really the structural transformations
of life and of the economy ofcommunity life too, which I do think
(35:32):
spit are play into to the patternswe're talking about, you know, so
in a sense that the sort ofthe movement from a kind of industrial to
a post industrial landscape, new kindsof work, new patterns of work,
new patterns of embodied life that thatthat that are unfolding unfolding too, you
(35:55):
know. And it seems to methat there are there's a crisis, there's
a crisis in well, what kindsof identities and sense of self unfold in
this very very changing, mercurial sortof world, you know. And I
think again there's something about the thethe connection to an affinity with patterns of
(36:17):
life that in many ways have beensuperseded by the economic landscape and the social
landscape in which they emerge that Ithink it's really interesting. So who are
how does one express a sense ofpersonal mastery in that sense in a in
a landscape that's shifting like that.And if if football culture is implicated in
(36:45):
how those patterns unfold in a waythat Isaac is talking about, then well,
how does this form of pattern ofleisure and culture connect to these wider
transformations. I think there's something aboutthat that is deeply challenging, about relation
to place, a relation to asense of self and embodied life. You
(37:06):
know, so much of the patternof football fandom is about embodied life.
And I guess the thing that Ithink is so interesting for us is,
well, how does it relate thento the changing nature of those communities,
the changing nature of the economy itself, and the forms of lilihood and work
that we're unfolding there. So,you know, it seems to me it
(37:30):
asks us question a question is notjust about a particular crisis of gendered identity,
but a question about, well,how is the nature of community and
social life being transformed? And there'ssomething about that that I think is is
really important to be open to.Yeah, and I just wanted to pick
(37:51):
up on I was just thinking aboutsomething when you were talking there, as
about the notion of this kind ofattachment to a particular of life which has
been superseded. I mean, theremight be something in the idea that young
maybe maybe not even working classmen,but you know, young middle class,
upper working classmen. You know,people who can are lucky enough to afford
(38:15):
to go to football games. Nowthey might see engaging forms of football violence
at the worst, and anti socialbehavior football, you know, maybe on
the kind of lower end of thespectrum, depending on how we'd define it
as something that they would perceive aswhat guys all had to go to football
(38:37):
do in absence of, in theabsence of those forms of collective, economic,
community and family life which would haveensured or you know, would have
ensured or sustained a kind of morestably traditionally traditional hegemonic masculinity right where,
(39:00):
you know, if we only haveto look at the caltural landscape where elements
of feminism have been taken into commonsense thinking around gender. Okay, it's
contested, it's you know, it'snot it's not one and anything like that.
But you know that idea that well, actually going to football and maybe
having a scrap or having you know, having having a couple of lines,
(39:20):
having a scrap or shout, youknow, kicking, you know, wing
mirrors off. Well, this iswhat guys who go to football do,
you know, because you know,back in my dad's day or whatever,
that's you know, what he saidpeople did and that it does. So
you can see that those kind ofattachments I think playing out through a kind
of maybe a kind of gender performanceof an expectation of what collective gendered identities
(39:49):
are in those spaces. So I'mjust wondering on that point then, is
that do you think do you thinka small element of it will always be
attached to football, because that's justthe way that it is. I would
I would be Again, it's youdon't want to essentialize and reproduce those tropes
around working classness and masculinity and particularforms of violence in their kind of all
(40:14):
this is like some sort of hardwidening grain thing. But I think there
is something possibly within football culture thatis very much it's just there, you
know, and I think it.You know, I would be surprised if
it, you know, you dissipated. But again, you know, I
(40:35):
think that's maybe because we're very hyperaware of that within football, you know,
rather than in other kind of sportsor whatever. But I would be
you know, you can't make predictions, but I it's just soaper system within
floor culture. You know, wedo see it crop up again and again,
you know, that's a kind ofthicity. I think that a yearning
(41:00):
for authenticity, which which again wesee that this is so these aren't that
they're not straightforward, these these patternsof culture. There's a lot of yearning
for authenticity, a sense of place, a connection, and it doesn't necessarily
it isn't necessarily so fixed to structuraldifferences as well, I think, I
(41:21):
think, you know, as asit was talking there, there's there's lots
of people who are drawn to theto the performance of a kind of working
class masculinity that aren't that weren't necessarilyborn into it, you know. And
so that's what I think is interestingand curious about about football culture particularly,
but also popular culture more broadly.This is the place where these things are
(41:44):
unfolding, and you know, andwhere we can see some of those both
those desires and also the sort ofattempts to enact them or perform them unfolding,
you know, and and and youknow, the whole politics of identity
of how that links to social differentiationis an incredibly fascinating aspect of what it
(42:10):
means to think sociologically today. Imean, I just had this example which
a friends sent to me from fromLondon Transport recently, you know, London
Transport trying to show itself to beinclusive and open to all Londoners. Had
as a poster with with the rainbowflag, a kind of queer celebration of
(42:31):
of of gay London life. Andyou know, the caption is here in
London you're free to love whoever youlove and to be whoever you truly are.
And then some rascal has scribbled underneaththat eye heart Millwall, you know,
(42:52):
and in a way I don't knowwhat, I don't know what the
I don't know what the motivations behindthat were, but you could see this.
That's the kind of the unfolding contestabout well, what kinds of forms
of love are permiscible, what kindof identities are to be recognized publicly and
celebrated, and which identities have tobe sort of scribbled and you know,
(43:17):
in forms of you know, illicitinscriptions. I just wondered, I mean,
this sounded like a little bit ofa cop out of the conclusion.
But there's no doubt that game's changing. Though we've just seen the popularity of
the Women's World Cup, you know, whether we're going to see the Middle
Eastern market just grow and grow andthat would be the new the new league
(43:38):
to go to a more global games. There's no doubt the game is changing,
But I just wanted to go backto what Isaac said. There's still
be that element of the traditional,if you like, and maybe in a
negative sense of traditional working class man'sgame, you know that that will remain.
I think it's really interesting as well, is those change as you're talking
(44:00):
about. But I mean, Ilive opposite of goals, right, So
it's like, you know, fiveside football all that, and you know,
the popularity of small sided games alsospeaks to a changing a changing participation
within football for people who play.But you only have to go down there
and you see or women's league.You have inclusive leagues where you have people
(44:23):
who are non binary playing, youhave you have things like that, and
then you have like mixed teams whereyou'll have like games of all abilities,
you know, where it be men, women, non binary people as well,
you know, more racially mixed,etcetera. Things like that. So
(44:43):
I even think we only have tolook at, you know, things we
might walk by in the park tosee how football itself is changing, not
in just terms of consuming the elitegame, but seeing how it's popularity has,
how it's popularity in more people aretaking in it is indicative of broader
(45:05):
social cultural change more broadly, butwithin football itself. I mean i'd say
only I mean I've been playing fiveside a long time. Yeah, I
didn't say five ten years ago.You wouldn't see You would not see that
personally. And I think that's Ithink that's only a good thing. And
I think it's indicative exactly of that, the extent to which that it's it's
(45:31):
all these things happening at once.I think that what we'd consider traditional,
new, or in Williams's terms,dominant, emergent and residual, all happening
at once, and tracing all thosethings, like when you study culture or
sociology or whatever, you know,you follow one thread and it doesn't really
(45:52):
lead anywhere. It just leads tosomething else, and something else and something
else. You see. I thinkthe thing, Matthew to come back to
where we started football, Hooluganism asa as a kind of spectacular social phenomenon
and a public concern, has heldour imaginations as sociosis hostage for a long
(46:14):
time. It's the thing that wecircle back to, or that that you
know, media commentators circle back torepeatedly. But actually, as Isaac was
just describing, then if you thinkabout sport and football as a form of
popular culture and what is alive there, what's unfolding there, the tangle of
(46:35):
things that are that are unfolding,the past, that the present, and
the emergent and the future. Youknow there there is so much that is
that that stimulates us and invites usto think harder about the kind of social
worlds that are unfolding. And soin a way, football hooluganism is fascinating,
(47:00):
but in a way, in anothersense, we need to make sure
it doesn't confine and limit the weightsin which we can think sociologically about sport
and popular culture more broadly. Ithink that is a perfect time to end,
gentlemen. I think you concluded itperfectly formulas. That's that's great.
Thank you so much for your timetoday, guys, And maybe we could
(47:21):
pick up and do another one ofthese, because I could have talked for
longer. I don't know about you. Oh, I was about football.
I was about football. That's great. That's great. And you're both on
Twitter. So if listeners do wantto add you a tool find out more
about your work, they can addyou on Twitter. Yep. Yet they
can can send you something over ifyou when you many scats posted and you
(47:44):
can you know maybe some you knowhaggers in that. Sure, we'll do,
We'll do. Thanks again for yourtime, guys, check good good
luck to your good luck to yourteams this weekend as well. Yeah,
indeed, bang and we started than. The Sociology Show podcast relies on the
(48:08):
kind contributions of sponsorship and donations.If you enjoy the show, then you
can help with the hosting costs bydonating as little as five pounds on the
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(48:32):
Thank you for taking the time tolisten to the podcast. If you
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Show Podcast at gmail dot com.
Hi, you're listening to The SociologyShow, a podcast about absolutely anything to
do with the wonderful world of sociology. Whether you're a teacher, a lectra,
a student, or just taking apassing interest. This podcast will look
at a range of issues from socialcasts, ethnicity, gender, sexuality,
religion, crime, education, andanything else this sociology has to offer.
(00:29):
My name is Matthew Wilkin. Ineach episode, I will speak to someone
working in the field of sociology andlet them explain all about their own interests,
their research, and their experiences.So put your ear phones in,
turn the volume up, and let'sbe sociology gigs together, right, Hello,
and welcome to the Sociology Show podcast. This episode is going to be
(00:52):
all about football, hooliganism and antisocial behavior. I'm delighted to be joined
by Professor Lsbach who's been on theshow before. Nice see you again,
Let's and also doctor Isaac Cough.So let's do some introductions to start with.
So let's tell us a little bitabout who you are, most importantly
who you support of course. Ah, well, it's great to be involved
(01:14):
in your show again. Matthew.Always a delight But yeah, my name
is Les Bag. I teach sociologyat the University of Glasgow. Before that,
I taught at Goldsmiths College, whichis a kind of link to to
my team because I'm a South Londonerand my team's Millwarthough and my family are
(01:36):
a traditionalist Palace supporters. I wentwent a different way and so I've been
at the devotee of Mill Football Clubpretty much all my life. Fantastic,
thank you, and Isaac tell usa little bit bit self. Yeah,
I'm Isaac. I'm a to immediatequarter in society at the University of Glasgow.
(02:00):
Thanks for inviting me on. It'sreally nice to be here for the
first time talking about something that I'mvery passionate about. I also work at
the University of Glasgow and my teamis Less City. The roller coaster of
emotions that is supporting that team thedowns, but I think more back into
(02:23):
our natural place now. I thinkthe world of being a Yo Yo team
suits is very well, but sincemoving to Glasgow, I do try and
follow a little bit of Partic Thistleas well. Thank you, thank you.
It's interesting to say the ups anddowns because I'm a Brighton fan.
If you're watching you can see.I'm a Brighton fan, by the way,
and in almost forty years I've beensupporting Brighton. We've been in all
(02:45):
four divisions, we've been ninety secondin the league, and at the time
of recording we are top of thePremier League two games in. But I'll
take it, you know. Soit's been a fantastic, fantastic journey.
So guys, thanks, thanks forjoining me. Then, so we're going
to talk about football hooliganism. Thereare media reports, police reports, and
statistics that suggest post COVID we haveseen a return to anti social behavior,
(03:09):
more arrests, more football violence,and it seems to definitely be on the
rise. I just wonder what's yourinitial thoughts. Obviously it's a it's a
culmination lots of different factors, butbut what would you attribute the main factors
to be for that rise? Isaac, Should I come to you first if
you don't mind, Yeah, Ithink I think it's interesting really thinking about
(03:30):
in the context of post COVID.I think a lot of it would be
being pent up. I think havingspent you know, a year, two
years really being cooped up indoors,not really being able to have any kind
of in person social life, notbeing able to kind of go and do
(03:53):
the things that you'd want to do. I think we'll play a big part
in it. And almost that kindof you know, that first time out,
really almost like that first time outand about in years and people really
kind of letting it all out,you know. I think that's a part
of it. I also think we'reliving in quite testing times for a lot
(04:15):
of people. I think there area lot of frustrations at you know,
plenty of things in terms of costof living, crisis, but also made
political frustrations as well that become expressedand I think are given voice through these
forms of violence, even though theymight not be explicitly you know, the
(04:36):
same political demands, so to speak. So I think it's that mixture of
the two things really. And alsowhen we think about when you read things
about football who luganism or anti socialbehavior in grounds now, the prevalence of
cocaine, you know, being akind of becoming a very normal part of
(04:58):
young people's in particular leisure practices,you know, in terms of whether it's
you know, boozing probably traditionally infootball now maybe shifting a little bit towards
that, and the impacts that wedidn't evitably have on people's state of state
of being. Really, it's interestingto say that because in preparation for the
(05:18):
show, I just asked a fewfellow fans, what do you think,
and someone instantly said, it's simple, boost is expensive. Coke's got cheaper,
you know, that was their firstresponse. Yeah, and it is.
It is interesting thinking about that shiftin terms of you know, I
mean, I can only speak interms of you know, when you think
(05:39):
about leisure and going out and thingslike that, in terms of how it's
becomes that's you know, kind ofproliferated out from the nighttime economy traditionally in
terms of clubbing, bars and thingslike that, to become something that just
is what people do to kind ofget get up for things, you know.
And I think with ball as well, that kind of heightened sense of
(06:02):
being an awareness kind of factor,and into the kind of I would say
that the kind of accenting, theenjoyment you get a being in football grounds
anyway, the atmosphere, the kindof back and forth, and then that
added elements feeding into you know,kind of you know, multiplying those senses
(06:23):
and feelings. I guess it isreally interesting that that seems to become a
source of a normal thing people dothat foot. Now, let's if I
could come on to you as well, what were your initially thoughts. That's
right. I mean, I thinkthat the sort of patterns, the social
patterns of drug a drug use area feature in this And you know it's
(06:46):
interesting too, isn't it. Ithink some of those sometimes those patterns tell
us something about the sort of changingnature of consumption and of commerce, and
also patterns of leisure and how thatreflects on social distinctions around class and masculinity
and those kinds of questions. Youknow, when you think about the association
of cocaine now it was very differentthan you know, ten years ago,
(07:12):
fifteen years ago, and you know, not a kind of a glamorous elite
drug any longer. And I thinkthere's something about that. These are all
patterns and shifts I think as sociologiststhat are clues to wider, wider ways
in which social distinctions and distinction makingwork. But I would say as well,
(07:33):
Matthew, you know, one ofthe things that's important always and one
of the kind of resources that sociologistsgive us, and sociology gives us is
the way in which we are constantlyalert to the limits of the way in
which moral categories get produced in society, which sort of label deviant behavior.
(07:58):
In football, hululism has been proneto this. You know, there's no
doubt there's not to sort of beromantic of our violence or anything like that.
But you know, one of thefirst questions for us as sociologists is
to question the terms of the wayin which public concern is framed and understood.
(08:18):
And I think that's one of thethings which is particularly relevant when we
think about football related violence and conflict, and to think, well, what's
going on there, what are theseaffects, allegiances and the way identities work,
(08:39):
and way in which sports particularly playsa key role in providing a vehicle
for the expression of a sense ofself, of joy, of passion,
and sometimes those passions can spill overinto into more conflictual emotions. But I
(09:00):
think that thing about it well,why sport is interesting because it's a place
we can see both the shape ofmoral concern and the panics that get circulate
in society, but also the wayin which people mobilize their sense of self,
their sense of place, and theirsense of belonging and just just wanting
(09:20):
to pick up on what I said. They're thinking about the term football hooliganism
and the kind of traditionally class connotationsbetween football and working classness in the UK.
Anyway, It's it's interesting to thinkabout the ways in which hooliganism is
a term kind of invokes ideas ofthis braying mob, you know, essentially
(09:41):
this lawless mob, which has beenused and is a brush that's been used
by tabloid newspapers in particularly it's tarworking class people, really, and I
think that kind of that used,that moralizing of working class p people as
potentially lawless has a kind of verylong history, a long political history,
(10:03):
right, And I think it's reallyinteresting to think about how those kind of
quote unquote concerns around collective working classlife or expressions of working class identity,
particularly in relation to football fandom,factors into so many things in the ways
in which you look out. Footballis police, and some might argue is
(10:28):
over police in ways that other collectiveleisure based occasions, particularly relations to sport,
simply aren't. So I think it'sexactly right in thinking in kind of
drawing attention to the ways in whicheven the media framings of or mediatized framings
of, you know, football violence, say, actually is embedded within this
(10:54):
kind of longer moral moralizing, analmost civilizing mission of you know, working
classes, which also is interesting interestingrelations football, you know as well,
in you know, when it wasfirst becoming a thing in its history,
you know, Victorian you know,well doers seeing football as a civilizing mission
(11:18):
to the working classes, you know, as it means to instilling them proper
value. So I think it's reallyinteresting thinking about those moral aspects in the
ways in which it's spoken about aswell. In that respect, I did
wonder as we were coming into thispodcast, are we seeing kind of a
classic moral panic, because I haveseen some references to saying this is,
(11:39):
you know, we're going back tothe dark days of the nineteen eighties.
Well I'm not sure about that,you know, I've I'm seeing more anti
social behavior recently. If I wasto put it bluntly, a lot of
young kids acting like dickheads on aSaturday, right, But to save back
to the eighties and what we wereseeing on the terraces, then I think
that's a stretch, is it not. I think it's a big stretch.
(12:01):
I mean, you know again,I think in a way a more interesting
problem for us to think about iswell, what do these patterns tell us
about both the shape of moral concernbut also the experience of life. You
know, and Millwall has always beenlike the exemplary hooligan club. You know,
(12:22):
it's a weird thing that you know, being a fan and also just
experiencing going to football. It neverthat the image that you would see on
the tabloid in the tabloid press neversquared with what it was like to be
a fan and what it was liketo be in those crowds. And you
know, I remember hilarious at themoment Matthew, which is relevant to your
(12:48):
club when there was concerns about therelationship between houganism and racism that a police
officer took me to once. Idid a project on on football culture and
multiculture and racism some years ago nowalmost twenty years ago, and a police
officer from from down in Brighton tookme to one side and said, oh,
(13:09):
you know it was there was thisconcern about you know, Brighton fan
Zeke kiling in the crowd and itwas a complete misreading of the fact that
they were not not chanting see Carl, they were chanting sea goals, you
(13:30):
know. And it's that kind ofthing which I think sport particularly is a
good place to think about how theseunfolded football particularly and so but the other
thing about this as well is thatyou know, the way in which football
clubs become a vehicle not just forfor for men and their passions for the
(13:50):
game, but they do become avehicle for the way in which the lived
experience of class unfold, you know. And in a way I think is
it coming back or is it asbad as it was in the eighties.
I don't think that's an interesting questionto say, well, what is what
is circulating? And you know,a brilliant and useful theorists that I know
(14:15):
that Isaac's also inspired by as atremendous sort of way of naming this.
Raymond Williams understands our experiences life asstructured forms of feeling, and those structured
forms of feeling, for Williams alwayshave what he would call a residual element,
that is, an element that's foragedin the past, as well as
(14:35):
an emergent element that that which isemerging in the present and the interplay between
those two things and as well asa dominant feature feature that is being imposed.
And there's something I think about theway in which the sort of residual
aspects of class based experience are stillbeing mobilized within football culture. And maybe
(14:58):
that's partly what is seeing interrupting thepresent, is that the legacy and the
residual elements of that of those ofthose affinities, of those commitments, those
passions, and also those allegiances andconflicts that are unfolding. I'm always struck
at Millwall. You know. Thegreat it's kind of call to for the
(15:22):
Millwall fans is the Lions row.It's sort of wordless, you know,
here thousands of people chant that sortof drone which is like the Lions raw.
I'm really mindful these days of howshrill the sound of the lions or
is there. They're young voices.They're not the voices of people who were
(15:46):
forged in the you know, earlyand mid twentieth century ecology of London's docks.
They're not. They're often young peoplefrom the hinterlands of southeast London who
are coming back to to New Crossand Deptford to commune with the residual aspects
of that cultural experience. Yeah,and just picking up from that, I
(16:08):
think one of the really interesting things, especially about kind of football culture and
those kind of residual elements of class, we think about the complete transformation of
the way in which class has experiencedand how it's rooted in those kind of
economic forms of life, but alsoplaced based forms of life. I think
there's something really interesting leaping back tokind of hooliganism and that really kind of
(16:33):
pioneering research from Lester in the eightiesand the nineties, thinking about ideas around
and expressing a kind of territorialization.You know, it's a means to kind
of, you know, articulate asense of place in defending a place that
you have a potential investment in,as you know, someone who might be
(16:55):
from a kind of particular area orassociated with a particular club. I find
interesting with that kind of the Millwallexample you're talking about it there, les
is that notion of the people,like you say, that kind of image
of these kind of stereotypical you know, imaginaries of the working class that we
might associate with football fans of theseventies and eighties in relation to leorganism is
(17:19):
gone. You know, that worldto some extent is gone. But actually
those notions perhaps of territoriality, butalso just coming together and having a sense
of collective you know, a realone of maybe the few instances in contemporary
life where people might not feel asoptimized or as individualized. You know,
(17:42):
you are together as we're Millwall fansalways. It's like you, Matthew brightened
me Leslie, you know, oneof the few chances that you maybe have
or young people or people feel likethey have to feel like they're a part
of something bigger than themselves that representsa kind of connection to a world that
might have gone or a place thatthey aren't as actively rooted in anymore.
(18:07):
Maybe, Yeah, I did wonderif if some of it was a search
for a subculture, you know,particularly post COVID young men looking for something
something to do and be a partof. And something struck me. I
noticed at a Brighton game recently,and I actually had a chat with a
group of lads. They were dressedin what I would call casual gear,
right. They all had the StoneIsland on and some of them had the
(18:29):
Acqua scoot them on and they werehaving a beer and they were singing in
a particular way. I don't thinkthey were actually up for a fight or
anything at all, not in anyway. In fact, they probably would
have run. I would have runwith them, you know, if it
all kicked off, without a doubt. But the image, the look,
the identity to be a part ofsomething that seemed to be more important than
the actual antisocial violence itself. Yeah, you see. I think as well,
(18:55):
this is where, you know,the sort of sociological reflex to question
and the moral judgments that are circulatingis a really useful one because it stopped.
It makes us think more broadly andless narrowly about, you know,
accepting the terms of the sort ofmoral quandary or the moral dilemma that's circulating
(19:15):
within the media and other places.And so I think that's exactly right to
be asking those questions about, well, what forms of collective affinity are being
mobilized, what are their bases,what are the resources? And you know,
I think it's not that thing aboutAnd it's the great lesson from Williams
is that the past never stays behindus. It never it's never lapsed,
(19:41):
it's always socially alive. So theidea for Williams that those cultural references to
place or a family connection to aplace, say because they remain residual,
but they are they're not dormant,that they're a very much active so they
can shape. They can be oneof some of the resources that you know,
like the group of fans that you'redescribing, can draw on and whether
(20:04):
it's you know, the fashion ofthe casuals that you know it's a little
bit dated now it comes back tolife. You know, it comes back
to life because it's not completely consignedto the past. And it's interesting thinking,
ye know, I was just thinkingabout that that kind of casual look
(20:25):
when you were speaking, Matthew arethinking, you know that you get the
badge in think, you know,with the Stonies and the Stone Island things
and stuff like that. I dothink there is something very much in that
affinity to a kind of style anda look that again it's you know,
you classic Cli Sae. It's quiteso cultural. But I also think as
(20:45):
well, questioning the returns to thedark days of the eighties, is going
back to that you only have togo to football grounds now and who's there
the probably class makeup of the crowdin terms of I mean, particularly with
Lester, you know, a lotmore probably racially diverse than it might have
(21:07):
been in those days. That's goingto completely transform the feel of football,
you know, and some have arguedthat football has gone through it's shifted from
its kind of working class roots intosomething maybe a bit more middle class,
you know, the I can't saythe word, but you know, the
bourgeois even thing, the bourgeois imanthing. So it's also putting these kind
(21:33):
of moral quandaries and articulations of collectivestyle and with kind of changes with who
goes to football, who's it pitchedat, who can afford to go to
football, particularly in the Premier Leagueand the Championship. You know, actually,
who are these people actually we're talkingabout, and how might they're kind
(21:56):
of class, race, gender,but also sexual kind of identity tis in
the way in which they intermingle,interact with the dominant and the emergent to
constitute new forms of collectivity within football. But also how that might spill over
into those kind of passions of youknow, when it gets a bit you
(22:17):
know, heated and violent and thingslike that. That's gonna also have an
impact on the ways in which thesethings are expressed. I think, you
know, yeah, I mean,I'll be visiting the AMEX tomorrow. It's
it's certainly a global international scene.You know. We get a lot of
Japanese fans at the moment supporting withToomer, and we've quite a lot of
South American players at Brighton. Itis a different atmosphere. So I'm just
(22:41):
wondering, are we completely squashing ourhypothesis that football hooliganism is on the rises?
Is perhaps that not completely true andwe are just seeing a media depiction
of the very worst fans as opposedto a true reality. I mean,
I suppose it's all relative. Youknow. Maybe it's that thing of you
spend a long time, you don'thear a lot about it, and then
(23:03):
you know, you have a relativespike in this kind of activity that becomes
more visible that it kind of lookslike maybe there is a you know,
it's a return to all these terriblethings. But you know, I think
it's about contextualizing it relatively as wellto what we have seen what we haven't
seen over maybe the last fifteen twentyyears, particularly in relation to English football.
(23:29):
Sorry, let's I'll cut you offa little better. No, it's
the same. There's a similar pointthat you're making. I mean, I
think that it's what question do weask? What questions is it posing?
That's the thing, you know,just thinking about the audience, your audience,
Matthew and students studying social I thinkthat's the that's the lesson here is
that we can't just be satisfied withthe way in which this question is posed
(23:55):
within the media and within these reporting. It's not that those things aren't happening.
Of course, they are happening.There is something happening. There's a
shift. What that shift might signalis for us to think hard about,
you know. And I think thetruth is that there's been tremendous regulation and
surveillance of football as a form ofpopular culture, perhaps more than any other.
(24:17):
Actually, and well, you know, the surveillance and policing of nighttime
spaces and dances and clubs is anotheranother another question, but and related.
But in a way it's like,well, okay, if there is a
pushback against those forms of regulation comingout of COVID, then what does that
(24:40):
tell us? I think it doestell us something about the tussle, the
struggle that's going on around the expressionof self and unfolding of life, and
the way and that that sense ofan unfolding life is regulated and the push
and pull between those those things.I think that's that's what so interesting in
what's unfolding now. So let's say, you know, the football huganism is
(25:04):
on the rise again sidelines the wayin which this kind of sphere of life
is incredibly regulated and incredibly policed,and just picking up from what as we're
saying again for students and things likethat, I think the questions that we
want to ask, and I thinkwhen we're thinking sociologically, particularly around something
(25:27):
like sport or popular culture or expressionsof self, is that relationship between continuity
and change and always looking there's alwaysa kind of historical element to what we're
doing and how we want to thinkabout things as well, So it's always
thinking through well, relative to maybepre COVID football violence has gone up,
(25:48):
but what are the trends and whatare the underlying issues that are driving that?
And also how do people make senseof that? You know, if
you speak to I'm sure the peoplewho are you, how you speak to
people who are involved in this andsocial behavior or whatever. They give you
a range of explanations that might speakto continuities in change, the emergent,
(26:11):
the residual, and however wants toframe it. And I think that's also
one of the most important things.Looping back to what you're saying, Matthew,
about we questioned a hypothesis, Well, not necessarily. It's just about
being attendant to continuity and change andthose kind of shifts that happen and now
they come to be expressed through everydayforms of engagement with popular culture and football.
(26:38):
In this instance, I guess yeah, because one of the things that
I was thinking is that I thinkthere's a lot more self pleating and regulation.
You know, I was thinking abouta couple of games that I went
to last year where there was somei'd call it idiotic behavior rather than violent
behavior post post game, and peoplewere calling out, don't do that.
You know, There's some lads kickingoff wing mirrors on cars as we were
(26:59):
being marched the station. Other people, don't do that. Stop it,
don't be a dickhead mate, basically, people were saying. And similarly in
grounds, you know, I'd liketo think all our teams. If you
heard someone shout out on a horrificracist, homophobic comment, I think people
would call that personnel and they tellthe stewards. So I just wonder if
we're seeing more regulation of that andthat's perhaps warping our idea of how bad
(27:22):
it actually is. Yeah, Ithink that's right. I think that's right.
I mean, I think there's anapple. But you know, classically
how we would understood standing in termsof how to analyze a moral panic.
This process of amplification going on.Yeah, this is one of stand Cohen's
great concepts. You know, fromway back now in the seventies. You
(27:44):
see how the moral concern is amplifiedthrough the way these patterns of reporting.
And I would guess you're absolutely right, Matthew, about that process of regulation,
regulation of sort of kind kind ofclick collective fan self regulation and and
(28:04):
and actually determining what the parameters ofconduct is and what's what's out of order
and what's in order. You know. So I think that's definitely the case.
But I think, you know,there's something too about the desire for
sort of a sense of self ofsovereign, a sense of sovereign sell,
(28:27):
a sense of expressed culture that isthat he shared that I think is also
at play and the definition of howthose ideas of identity and belonging and place
and collectivity are being articulated. AndI think the way that that's operating in
(28:48):
public through football culture is always reallyinteresting. It's an interesting sign of something,
you know, those identities that arethat are either being discredited or suppressed,
and then the pushback against that process, you know, of of of
regulating and policing what's what's allowed,you know, And I think that football
(29:11):
culture has been a very powerful sortof sphere in which that struggle can unfold.
Yeah, And I think it's it'scoming to them ideas around contestation and
popular culture being a key site ofcontestation in relation to push back what is
and what isn't considered appropriate. Imean the notion that you know, people
(29:34):
will you know, obviously here incidencesof racist abuse in stadiums, homophobic abuse
to a particularly in relation to Brightontraditionally you know people you know, football
as a site. Where As yousaying people self regulating the way that is
(29:55):
different, and it does take intoaccount some that kind of prevent ginally takes
into accounts some elements and what wewould have once called progressive social and causual
change in the way in which thatchanges, the kind of parameters of exactly
what as we're saying, what isand what is considered not to be on
(30:15):
and all those kind of things.So I think it's it really I think
football culture more broadly, but youknow football, but popular cult more broadly.
It's it's that thing around contest station, you know, and the working
out of identities in relation to change, but also continuity as well. Yeah,
(30:37):
The Sociology Show podcast relies on thekind contributions of sponsorship and donations.
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(31:00):
you for your continued support of theshow. I might make this the last
question, but it's quite quite abig area. When I was asking people
in preparation for the show, whatdo you think it's down to? As
I said, people mentioned the ubiquityof cocaine use, financial crisis, post
COVID, and so on. Butthe word that kept from coming up time
(31:22):
and time again was masculinities. AndIsaac, I know you've written extensively about
this toxic masculinity. The term cameup, lost mails, not knowing where
they're going, directionists. How muchof this do you think this is about
masculine to user phrase that's used insociology, a lot of a crisis of
masculinity? Are we experiencing that fora lot of young men today? Do
(31:45):
you think that? I think?I mean, I'm not sure I fully
subscribed to the idea of a crisisin masculinity if we only have to look
at continue the continuing persistence of inequalitiesbetween men and women economically, socially,
(32:07):
culturally, and politically, I thinkto get at that notion, it's hard
to know. Really. I thinkit's it's a really difficult question because football's
long being what some would call gendertypes as a particularly mascularized space, right,
And I think in a way withthat kind of that the kind of
(32:29):
association with football and masculinity and aparticular form of masculinity, one that is
rooted in what Ray Win Connor wouldcall hegemonic masculinity right around exhibiting physical dominance,
primarily if we're going to talk aboutfighting right and defending ones honor and
etcetera, etcetera. I suppose,for for a long time, I think
(32:53):
it's almost it's a space where,in a way it could be argued I
think that it's expected to some extentof these kind of spaces that men may
or may not engage in these kindof masculinized practices which in other spheres of
(33:13):
their life would maybe be policed ina much more different way. In terms
of whether this is expressive of acrisis, I'm not sure. I don't
necessarily think so. But then ifwe put it in a broader context around
(33:35):
men and gender, if we seethe kind of around popularity of people are
Andrew Tap and the Manisphere, andthe kind of real insidious things that they
talk about and spread and that haveinfluence on really being overtly misogynistic, I
think if we put it in thatkind of broader context, there is clearly
something going on with men and masculinities. Whether these are expresses of a crisis,
(34:02):
I think it depends how we definecrisis. You know, are we
talking about men losing their relative statuscompared to maybe fifty years ago. Well,
who's that a crisis for? Youknow, it becomes an if we're
talking in those terms, it becomesone person's progress is the loss of another,
where actually we know that that's notnecessarily the case, and we shouldn't
(34:23):
use that as a justification maybe notto change these things, right, But
yeah, I think it's a verycomplicated, difficult question to end on.
But I think there's you know,it's something rooted in a very kind of
hegemonic form of masculinity I think,in which that it's a space where it's
(34:45):
expected in some extent to be expressed. And I think that's very much a
continuity with how we would see footballcult and football who organism, you know,
from the seventies onwards. Maybe Iwondered if you had any thought thoughts
on that too. Yeah, Imean I think that the crisis of masculinity
(35:07):
type way of thinking about these issuesreally it kind of it touches something and
confines us at the same time.For as like, I mean, what
is what is unfolding? It seemsto me are are really the structural transformations
of life and of the economy ofcommunity life too, which I do think
(35:32):
spit are play into to the patternswe're talking about, you know, so
in a sense that the sort ofthe movement from a kind of industrial to
a post industrial landscape, new kindsof work, new patterns of work,
new patterns of embodied life that thatthat that are unfolding unfolding too, you
(35:55):
know. And it seems to methat there are there's a crisis, there's
a crisis in well, what kindsof identities and sense of self unfold in
this very very changing, mercurial sortof world, you know. And I
think again there's something about the thethe connection to an affinity with patterns of
(36:17):
life that in many ways have beensuperseded by the economic landscape and the social
landscape in which they emerge that Ithink it's really interesting. So who are
how does one express a sense ofpersonal mastery in that sense in a in
a landscape that's shifting like that.And if if football culture is implicated in
(36:45):
how those patterns unfold in a waythat Isaac is talking about, then well,
how does this form of pattern ofleisure and culture connect to these wider
transformations. I think there's something aboutthat that is deeply challenging, about relation
to place, a relation to asense of self and embodied life. You
(37:06):
know, so much of the patternof football fandom is about embodied life.
And I guess the thing that Ithink is so interesting for us is,
well, how does it relate thento the changing nature of those communities,
the changing nature of the economy itself, and the forms of lilihood and work
that we're unfolding there. So,you know, it seems to me it
(37:30):
asks us question a question is notjust about a particular crisis of gendered identity,
but a question about, well,how is the nature of community and
social life being transformed? And there'ssomething about that that I think is is
really important to be open to.Yeah, and I just wanted to pick
(37:51):
up on I was just thinking aboutsomething when you were talking there, as
about the notion of this kind ofattachment to a particular of life which has
been superseded. I mean, theremight be something in the idea that young
maybe maybe not even working classmen,but you know, young middle class,
upper working classmen. You know,people who can are lucky enough to afford
(38:15):
to go to football games. Nowthey might see engaging forms of football violence
at the worst, and anti socialbehavior football, you know, maybe on
the kind of lower end of thespectrum, depending on how we'd define it
as something that they would perceive aswhat guys all had to go to football
(38:37):
do in absence of, in theabsence of those forms of collective, economic,
community and family life which would haveensured or you know, would have
ensured or sustained a kind of morestably traditionally traditional hegemonic masculinity right where,
(39:00):
you know, if we only haveto look at the caltural landscape where elements
of feminism have been taken into commonsense thinking around gender. Okay, it's
contested, it's you know, it'snot it's not one and anything like that.
But you know that idea that well, actually going to football and maybe
having a scrap or having you know, having having a couple of lines,
(39:20):
having a scrap or shout, youknow, kicking, you know, wing
mirrors off. Well, this iswhat guys who go to football do,
you know, because you know,back in my dad's day or whatever,
that's you know, what he saidpeople did and that it does. So
you can see that those kind ofattachments I think playing out through a kind
of maybe a kind of gender performanceof an expectation of what collective gendered identities
(39:49):
are in those spaces. So I'mjust wondering on that point then, is
that do you think do you thinka small element of it will always be
attached to football, because that's justthe way that it is. I would
I would be Again, it's youdon't want to essentialize and reproduce those tropes
around working classness and masculinity and particularforms of violence in their kind of all
(40:14):
this is like some sort of hardwidening grain thing. But I think there
is something possibly within football culture thatis very much it's just there, you
know, and I think it.You know, I would be surprised if
it, you know, you dissipated. But again, you know, I
(40:35):
think that's maybe because we're very hyperaware of that within football, you know,
rather than in other kind of sportsor whatever. But I would be
you know, you can't make predictions, but I it's just soaper system within
floor culture. You know, wedo see it crop up again and again,
you know, that's a kind ofthicity. I think that a yearning
(41:00):
for authenticity, which which again wesee that this is so these aren't that
they're not straightforward, these these patternsof culture. There's a lot of yearning
for authenticity, a sense of place, a connection, and it doesn't necessarily
it isn't necessarily so fixed to structuraldifferences as well, I think, I
(41:21):
think, you know, as asit was talking there, there's there's lots
of people who are drawn to theto the performance of a kind of working
class masculinity that aren't that weren't necessarilyborn into it, you know. And
so that's what I think is interestingand curious about about football culture particularly,
but also popular culture more broadly.This is the place where these things are
(41:44):
unfolding, and you know, andwhere we can see some of those both
those desires and also the sort ofattempts to enact them or perform them unfolding,
you know, and and and youknow, the whole politics of identity
of how that links to social differentiationis an incredibly fascinating aspect of what it
(42:10):
means to think sociologically today. Imean, I just had this example which
a friends sent to me from fromLondon Transport recently, you know, London
Transport trying to show itself to beinclusive and open to all Londoners. Had
as a poster with with the rainbowflag, a kind of queer celebration of
(42:31):
of of gay London life. Andyou know, the caption is here in
London you're free to love whoever youlove and to be whoever you truly are.
And then some rascal has scribbled underneaththat eye heart Millwall, you know,
(42:52):
and in a way I don't knowwhat, I don't know what the
I don't know what the motivations behindthat were, but you could see this.
That's the kind of the unfolding contestabout well, what kinds of forms
of love are permiscible, what kindof identities are to be recognized publicly and
celebrated, and which identities have tobe sort of scribbled and you know,
(43:17):
in forms of you know, illicitinscriptions. I just wondered, I mean,
this sounded like a little bit ofa cop out of the conclusion.
But there's no doubt that game's changing. Though we've just seen the popularity of
the Women's World Cup, you know, whether we're going to see the Middle
Eastern market just grow and grow andthat would be the new the new league
(43:38):
to go to a more global games. There's no doubt the game is changing,
But I just wanted to go backto what Isaac said. There's still
be that element of the traditional,if you like, and maybe in a
negative sense of traditional working class man'sgame, you know that that will remain.
I think it's really interesting as well, is those change as you're talking
(44:00):
about. But I mean, Ilive opposite of goals, right, So
it's like, you know, fiveside football all that, and you know,
the popularity of small sided games alsospeaks to a changing a changing participation
within football for people who play.But you only have to go down there
and you see or women's league.You have inclusive leagues where you have people
(44:23):
who are non binary playing, youhave you have things like that, and
then you have like mixed teams whereyou'll have like games of all abilities,
you know, where it be men, women, non binary people as well,
you know, more racially mixed,etcetera. Things like that. So
(44:43):
I even think we only have tolook at, you know, things we
might walk by in the park tosee how football itself is changing, not
in just terms of consuming the elitegame, but seeing how it's popularity has,
how it's popularity in more people aretaking in it is indicative of broader
(45:05):
social cultural change more broadly, butwithin football itself. I mean i'd say
only I mean I've been playing fiveside a long time. Yeah, I
didn't say five ten years ago.You wouldn't see You would not see that
personally. And I think that's Ithink that's only a good thing. And
I think it's indicative exactly of that, the extent to which that it's it's
(45:31):
all these things happening at once.I think that what we'd consider traditional,
new, or in Williams's terms,dominant, emergent and residual, all happening
at once, and tracing all thosethings, like when you study culture or
sociology or whatever, you know,you follow one thread and it doesn't really
(45:52):
lead anywhere. It just leads tosomething else, and something else and something
else. You see. I thinkthe thing, Matthew to come back to
where we started football, Hooluganism asa as a kind of spectacular social phenomenon
and a public concern, has heldour imaginations as sociosis hostage for a long
(46:14):
time. It's the thing that wecircle back to, or that that you
know, media commentators circle back torepeatedly. But actually, as Isaac was
just describing, then if you thinkabout sport and football as a form of
popular culture and what is alive there, what's unfolding there, the tangle of
(46:35):
things that are that are unfolding,the past, that the present, and
the emergent and the future. Youknow there there is so much that is
that that stimulates us and invites usto think harder about the kind of social
worlds that are unfolding. And soin a way, football hooluganism is fascinating,
(47:00):
but in a way, in anothersense, we need to make sure
it doesn't confine and limit the weightsin which we can think sociologically about sport
and popular culture more broadly. Ithink that is a perfect time to end,
gentlemen. I think you concluded itperfectly formulas. That's that's great.
Thank you so much for your timetoday, guys, And maybe we could
(47:21):
pick up and do another one ofthese, because I could have talked for
longer. I don't know about you. Oh, I was about football.
I was about football. That's great. That's great. And you're both on
Twitter. So if listeners do wantto add you a tool find out more
about your work, they can addyou on Twitter. Yep. Yet they
can can send you something over ifyou when you many scats posted and you
(47:44):
can you know maybe some you knowhaggers in that. Sure, we'll do,
We'll do. Thanks again for yourtime, guys, check good good
luck to your good luck to yourteams this weekend as well. Yeah,
indeed, bang and we started than. The Sociology Show podcast relies on the
(48:08):
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can help with the hosting costs bydonating as little as five pounds on the
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(48:32):
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