September 18, 2023 • 31 mins
*This interview was recorded before the WGA strikes began.
Introduction:
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Introduction:
- Host: Geoffrey D. Calhoun
- Instagram @screenwriterpod
- YouTube @thesuccessfulscreenwriter
- Guests: Filmmakers Zach Green and Devin O’Rourke
- Film: Foil
- Logline: An unusual piece of foil with potential alien origin causes a rift between two former best friends camping in the California desert.
- Meet Zach Green and Devin O’Rourke:
- Geoffrey D. Calhoun introduces Zach Green and Devin O’Rourke, the dynamic duo behind the buddy comedy film "Foil."
- Overview of Zach and Devin's background, their journey into filmmaking, and their collaborative ventures.
- The Genesis of 'Foil':
- In-depth exploration of the creative process behind writing and directing the buddy comedy "Foil."
- Zach and Devin share insights into the inception of the story, character development, and the comedic elements that make "Foil" unique.
- Writing Comedy Gold:
- Discussion on the specific writing techniques employed to craft humor in "Foil."
- Insights into the challenges and joys of writing a buddy comedy, including the dynamics between characters and the importance of comedic timing.
- Directing the Laughs:
- Devin O’Rourke discusses the directorial approach taken to bring the comedic vision of "Foil" to life.
- Collaboration with the cast, navigating the challenges of a comedy set, and ensuring the humor translates from script to screen.
- Foil's Impact on Filmmaking:
- Explore the impact of "Foil" on the filmmaking landscape, both in terms of audience reception and its contribution to the buddy comedy genre.
- Zach and Devin's perspective on the evolving expectations of comedy audiences.
- Behind the Scenes Anecdotes:
- The hosts delve into behind-the-scenes anecdotes, memorable moments, and challenges faced during the production of "Foil."
- Stories that showcase the camaraderie between the creators and the cast.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
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(00:03):
You are listening to the IH podcastNetwork. For more amazing filmmaking and screenwriting
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(00:28):
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Now onto our show. All right, welcome to the show. I'm
very excited about today's guests. We'vegot the writers and also the director behind
a really fun comedy out there calledFoil right now. It's making the festival
(00:49):
rounds and it's I've got the writerdirector Zach Green, and fellow writers well
Devin O'Rourke, and they're both alsoactually star in the film. Thanks for
being guys. Thanks great to behaving us, real to be here.
Well, what I really wanted todo about getting you on the show and
talking about this is I often tellwriters people, listen to the show.
(01:11):
You know, make your opportunities happenfor you. Don't just write a script
and wait around hoping. Sometimes somewheresomeone will believe in you. And that's
what you guys are doing. Youguys wrote this thing, directed it,
you're putting it out there. You'vegot a premiere at the Chinese Theater.
Absolutely amazing. You guys are makingit happen. So I really want to
(01:34):
kind of get into the birth ofthe project, your origin stories of how
you guys met and how this thingstarted moving forward. Yeah, yeah,
absolutely so. Devin and I areboth Texas boys. He grew up in
Houston. I grew up in Austin. Devin end up going to ut and
(01:55):
funny enough, we did not meetout there. We met out here in
La College buddy, old college buddythat knew Devon first, and the more
he got to know about Devon,the more he realized we had a lot
of like Texas Will Go indie films. So I think he introduced us,
like twenty seventeen, twenty eighteen.I remember the first thing we did,
Devon was we hung out at yourplace and we watched Good Time, and
(02:17):
then we played a ton of WillGo. It was a good it was
a good time. It was agood time, and we played h Yeah,
that's that's my earliest memory too.Yeah, I really do think that
was our first hang solid, Hangsolid guy, hang right there. And
it wasn't too long after that thatDevon asked me to be a part of
(02:39):
a short he was working on.He'd sort of written it for the two
of us, really simple, justtwo guys talking in my in my kitchen
and uh sort of like living room. Shot it in a day, banged
it out. It was like weeksbefore the pandemic hit and lockdown hit,
so we felt really lucky that ithappened when it happened, and we had
(03:01):
such a good time man that wejust you know, it kind of just
immediately was like, Okay, let'sdo that again. But can we do
it bigger? You know, howmuch bigger can we get than that?
And you know, I find myselfsaying this all the time, but in
a weird way, I think thepandemic and lockdown and just being forced to
be home and you know it gaveus the time and the space to really
(03:23):
develop something, you know, muchbigger than I think we even expected going
into it. And dev if youwant to fill in any holes, yeah,
no, I mean, you know, we'd known each other for a
while and you know, we startedgoing acting workshops together leading up to the
(03:44):
short. That's right, made theshort, and like Zach said, we
just realized that we worked well togetheron and off screen, and we were
both just kind of, I think, hungry to make a feature. And
we'd both been a part of smallerprojects. Zach actually in a couple of
features. You know, I hadmade a series of short films, and
(04:04):
I I was just thinking, youknow, what can we do that kind
of brings this sensibility, this dialoguedriven style to a genre, to the
sci fi because we both are scifi fans. We both you know,
our students of UFO and paranormal cases. Like, we realized we had that
(04:26):
in common too, So it waslike, you know, how can we
marry those those two things? Andthen we also had an airstream trailer and
a piece of land in Joshua Tree, So that kind of was the beginnings
of all right, what can whatcan I ride around that? So I
had the title Foil. I hadjust the basic concept of two guys discovering
(04:47):
a weird piece of foil in thedesert and arguing over it. But at
that time I was sort of thinkingof it more like a play like playing
out in real time. Uh,kind of like like Richard Linklater's tape.
You've seen that it's like basically anargument between two guys in real time,
and that that was kind of myprototype at the time. But when I
(05:10):
brought it to Zach, You're superexcited about it, and we realized we
could develop it into something more funand funny. So so, Zach,
let me ask you this, becausewhen I co write a comedy with somebody,
I'm actively writing it with them.I don't like to pass off drafts.
I like to work on it activelywith them and see if I can
(05:33):
get a beat that makes the otherwriter laugh. Because if I can do
that, then I know I havesomething and an audience is going to get
to. So there were there aremoments between that guy between that when you
guys are passing the script back andforth they're working on it, and you
just make the other person crack up, and you go, Okay, this
is money, this is what we'resupposed to do. Totally. Yeah,
(05:58):
So when we were really getting likefirst passes on the draft done, we
would do a thing where again Ithink the pandemic lent itself to this system,
but we really enjoyed it where thetwo of us would go off and
write it separately and sort of youknow, have like the very bare bones
beats that need to maybe happen,but otherwise, you know, mostly just
trusting the other one to just trystuff. Yeah, you know, try
(06:21):
to surprise the other one with abit with a punchline with you know,
sometimes even whole scenes and concepts wehadn't talked about. If you feel inspired,
write it down, send it over. We'd usually look at each other's
drafts, piece together our favorite versionof that, and then to like really
polish it, we'd meet up inmy backyard and just record us improving those
(06:42):
beats again like that, and thenyou know, making each other laugh in
the improv listening back to the recordingof it, and you know a lot
of times, like just verbatim writingdown how it just happened to come out
in the improv would end up beingwhat was on the page. And then
you know what's funny about that iswhen you're two improv comfortable guys, that
(07:03):
also means that on the day shootingthat can happen too. You know,
we definitely would we reserved the spaceand the right to try different deliveries and
different approaches to lines. You know, we weren't like letter of the law
about it was more spirit of thelaw. Yeah, I mean I would
say we're both actors first, writerssecond, you know, And with that
(07:30):
in mind, we kind of realizedthat, you know, the discovery of
that came out of reading it togetherand performing it and discovering new things that
way, it was going to bebetter than anything we could right before things
that came out naturally. I mean, like, you know, I'm not
the Cohen Brothers, Like I'm notgetting like strict about you know, the
(07:54):
letter of the law, like Zachsays, like it the way that we're
going to say it in a prois probably going to feel more natural and
better than the way we had writtenit. And it also, you know,
we were able to unlock other aspectsof the script on a character and
plot level through those those sessions.So when I work with a co writer,
(08:18):
we'll usually go, Okay, we'regonna do sixty forty. So like
I started this concept sixty forty,so I'll have like final say, or
if it's fifty fifty, then wereally have to respect each other's notes,
did you guys have any kind ofa balance that way. Was it a
fifty fifty Was it a sixty fortywhere one of you's like, Okay,
that's it hard, stop, thisis not working, we need to change
(08:41):
it. I would say it was. It was pretty fifty fifty. Again,
I think because we're, as Devsaid, actors first, writers second,
there wasn't a huge There wasn't anyego to it. It was just
about what feels like it works best. Now, mind you, that also
means with that much openness and trust, it doesn't mean that there were plenty
(09:01):
there that there were not plenty ofversions of this movie that we would kind
of go down these rabbit holes.And you know, there was a good
while where we were playing with likea time loop aspect and that Tom and
Rambo were older versions of us trappedin that. I had a theory of
that at one point. So yeah, I'm glad that there's still like a
(09:22):
shell of it in there, andthat I you know, I think I
let us down that rabbit hole alot further than we ought to have.
And you know, I think anytime travel concept, the more you think
about it, the more you goinsane. And so Devin was always really
good at identifying, like I thinkthis is officially a brick wall. Let's
take three steps back and go rightinstead of left and see how that feels,
(09:43):
which is like something I'm you know, I'm obsessive. I can if
I hit that brick wall, Iusually walk away frustrated, you know,
but it was good. I'm grailingit back in. I mean, Zach
just says a brilliant imagination, andhe's able to like take things to the
extreme in a good way. Andyou know, I'm an editor, so
like I have the editor brand oflike do we need that? Like is
(10:07):
that necessary? So you know,in some ways I was kind of like
editing Zach's great ideas, like pullingit back twenty percent, uh, you
know, to a place that feltyou'd better. But you know, like
I think that was it was fiftyfifty because you know, we were writing,
(10:30):
we would write, take our individualpasses at the same scene, like
we would have the scenes catched out. We would each write our version,
look at it, recording, improvtogether, and just arrive on a consolidated
draft. And sometimes those drafts,those separate drafts were very similar, and
sometimes, like you know, Zack'swas very different like when in a completely
different direction, and so it gaveus a lot of things to consider,
(10:52):
and it gave us different different vantagepoints. So you say, you say
to me, editing brain, butwhat leaps out to me is producer's brain.
Right, because you guys are fundingthis thing, right, You've got
you've got funding, and before wekind of like launch into that, it
makes a lot of sense that you'regoing to go and like, yeah,
that all makes sense, but we'regonna cutback on this twenty percent because we
(11:13):
have a budget or we only haveso much story to tell. So I
think that's brilliant. And that isone thing that writers can struggle with is
well, I want, I haveall these great ideas, but then you
have to be like, oh,I have to pull it back. But
before we kind of like go intofunding, I actually want to ask you
about the theme of the story becauseas I was watching the film play out,
(11:35):
you know, the main theme isfriendship. Right, The main theme
is friendship, But if you goeven deeper into the theme, it's really
being honest with yourself about who youare to your friend. And I like
that it plays so well between yourtwo characters and also between Tom and ramble
because again I'm not going to giveaway spoilers, but there's a big revelation
(11:58):
of who those two are and theirfriendship and how they're kind of hiding from
each other. So was this somethingthat you were kind of exploring with your
own friendship as you guys were workingon the script and making this film,
because I have to assume there wassome stress there and so and then you
you know, start you know,life imitates art imitates life, right.
(12:22):
I think I think you are rightthat, you know, Devin and I
have said many times throughout this processthat we're very much a ying and yang
pair. Or you know, anotherthing that we've joked about a lot is
how all the main characters are foilsof each other. I think I like
that there are ways that that Devand I are foils of ourselves, you
know, And I think Dev touchedon it a little bit before, and
(12:46):
he said it previously two that youknow, if he is on the side
of undercooking an idea, I areon the side of overcooking idea. And
that's how you kind of get thebest loaf of bread is you know,
can't balance without those two versus kindof pulling it there. But again,
like no, we also never reallygot like in any creative disputes or fights
(13:09):
or you know, at no pointdid it feel like stressful. It felt
like, you know, for meat least, like like finally someone is
working on me with something that canbe that voice to like stop me from
jumping off the cliff. You know, yeah, I mean, yeah,
(13:30):
I think I think that those aregood observations about uh, you know,
the idea of of sort of beinghonest with your friend about who you are,
and you know, like one ofthe things we talked about a lot
on the script level is like whyare they going to the desert? You
know, that was something that wekind of came back around, and I
realized eventually that that's kind of thepoint that the the terms are not communicate
(13:54):
communicated clearly between them, and that'swhat leads to conflicts they both having municated
why we're doing this, and Rex'swithholding information about his true goals and Dexter's
lying about you know, his situationin his own way. You know,
Like, like Zach said, wewere pretty harmonious throughout the one time that
(14:16):
we did kind of there were acouple of times like we it was usually
we forgot a shot. For example, we forgot to get a shot when
we were like way out parked inthe desert. And that first scene when
we're arguing, uh, going upthe mountain after we have got after we
got of the out of the bronco, that was the time where I think
(14:39):
we actually were a little chippy witheach other at that point, and I
think it. I think it showsand the scene Uh and me. And
also there was gunfire going off likeover our heads during that scene. There
was like there's a shooting range,uh, somewhere close, and so you
know, we have like these bullets, these hounds going off, like we're
(15:01):
kind of mad at each other.The sun's going down. But I think
it all think it all worked forthe same. I think if I think
if you've no you're fine. Ithink if you've gone through a filmmaking process
and I can and I can saythis it really I mean I've never served,
but I feel like you've gone tobattle, you know, and you
(15:24):
have like this, you have thisspecial relationship with that other person, like
you're like you've you've both seen somestuff, you know, and so you've
gone through it. And I thinkit really like filmmaking really does bring people
together because like you can't. Imean, everybody's going to see who you
are and you have to kind ofmake everything work. And I think that's
one of the reasons why like fortyeight hour film festivals, you get these
(15:48):
groups of people together, they're friendsfor life, and it's for a reason,
you know, because stress brings peopletogether. And I think there's no
really a greater stress than filmmaking inthat moment. So I think it totally
makes sense. So let's let's goon to funding. Like I always like
to ask this question because a lotof people they self fund or they are
(16:08):
able to get investors, And sohow difficult was it for you to raise
capital to get this thing going?It was definitely a journey for sure.
We we didn't you know, wedidn't ever have a you know, production
company or distribution or sales agent oryou know. This is one percent community
(16:32):
funded by ourselves, friends and family, which you know, feels like like
a miracle. We feel kind oflike a unicorn in that way that you
know, we just kind of flewunder the radar and found a way to
do this. But no, yeah, so I mean we we both have
chipped in ourselves to make this possible. We did a go fund me and
(16:55):
pre production to get us started,and then we did a Kickstarter for post
production because we were completely out ofmoney by that point. Sure, but
both were like wildly successful. Honestly, I have to like really gip my
hat to my mom, my momDucer, I guess you could call her.
She's a very uh, kind ofone of a kind, outgoing lady.
(17:18):
She's wont herself a couple of Toni'sproducing on Broadway and just I think,
and that's just within the last likefive years or so. It's fantastic,
and that in particular, I thinkshe tapped into a world there when
she got into the Broadway people thatwe got some really solid support from from
that circle of of of folks.And and again all of them were it
(17:41):
was, you know, strictly likedonation base, like none of them were
signing on to get anything back,Like we still own the entire movie.
It's really kind of mind blowing andalso feels like a one time thing,
you know what I mean, LikeI don't think we could go and ask
everyone we know to do this again. But also all our friends, you
know, our friends chipped into theKickstarter and you know we're you know,
(18:07):
there's support. The Big Guy waswas really really awesome, and you know,
it made us feel great, butit also made us feel like,
all right, we now have aresponsibility to make this thing good, not
only to finish it, but tomake it good because people are literally invested
and we want them to like themovie. So now I think that's important.
(18:30):
But it also really it's important forwriters who are looking to get their
stuff made out there that if youdon't put it out there and ask,
you won't receive, Like you haveto let people don't like, hey,
I'm doing this. Are you interestedin supporting it? And then and then
being completely honest like, here's whatour expectations are. You know, here's
what we're gonna do. Not sella lie and be totally honest with them,
(18:55):
and you would be surprised at howmany people will help you achieve that
dream. Right, So I thinkit's important to absolutely put it out there.
Where where So you have the bigpremiere tonight at the Chinese Theater,
which is absolutely amazing. Congratulations.So where are we going from here?
(19:15):
What's what's the what's the future holdfor you guys with the film or just
with in general in general, well, with the film, you know,
Dances with Films was a real eyeopener for us because they accepted us in
the midnight section, and you know, we knew we were a genre film,
(19:37):
but it's sort of like lowercase Mmidnight. You know, it's not
like super fucked up gory, youknow. But like we so when we
were submitting to festivals, we werejust unsure of how we were going to
play as more of a comedy ormore of a sci fi. And I
think we're thrilled to get this kindof clarification, like that's the audience that
(20:00):
wants to see this is the midnightfolks. So you know, we're submitted
to many more festivals through the endof the year. You know, only
so many of them have midnight sectionsor our genre based festival. You know,
obviously, like Fantastic Best in Austinwould be a dream for us.
So we're looking forward to to togetting you know, into maybe a couple
(20:23):
of those spaces, meeting a coupleof those folks. We're definitely very much
still looking for, you know,the right choice in terms of distribution,
you know, more to come hopefullyafter tonight with that, and and then
as far as just in general,at least for me. You know,
(20:44):
we really went all in on thismovie for the last two and a half
years. You know, I don'tthink there was really a whole just given
how many hats we were wearing,there wasn't a whole lot of time to
think about other things. You know, I'd say maybe when we locked in
January was the first time I reallyfelt like I could think about another idea,
right, and I do have one. I have like, you know,
(21:06):
if you swapped the sci fi formore monster movie, but you know
pretty much all the other sensibilities broughtto Foil, that you'd have the right
idea, you know, maybe swapthe desert for the beach and swap sci
fi for monsters. That that's sortof what I'm like leaning toward in the
future. But you know, stillvery very early and obviously, like,
I want to remain open to kindof anything that comes as a results of
(21:30):
our work on Foil. You know, I think we both loved acting in
and we'd love to act more.You know, Yeah, I want to
remain open, but also focus.You have something to be focused on if
if I have the time, whatabout you do? Have what you what?
You? What you pondering? Yeah, I'd like to act more too.
I really loved that aspect of it. You know, I just echo
(21:55):
Zac. I think that the processof working together, we've come out to
others. I still friends, stilltalking to each other, which is,
you know, a minor miracle initself. But we've also learned, we
sort of established a playbook for howto do this, how to make a
feature. There was so many pointsalong the way, you know, where
(22:18):
we encountered a stage of the processorslike all right, how do we do
this and who do we do itwith? So we found some great people
and we've found, you know,some some best practices, I guess,
and I like how to make amovie like this whole process was about discovery
for me, honestly, and likelearning both being on set and also just
(22:41):
from a producers angle with Zach asyou know, as co creators of our
our company, like how do weshepherd this thing at each step? And
you know, it was an education. So, you know, I love
to keep acting. I'm always tryingto develop script ideas, but yeah,
(23:07):
remaining open, We'll see what happens. I'm still I feel like, I,
you know, until Foyle is outin the world, I'm not going
to really be able to completely shiftmy focus. Yeah, you guys are
still in the middle of it.I have to ask how you got Chrissy
Dubeck because that guy's like acting legend. He's in everything, everywhere, all
the time. It's pretty amazing.And so sound was like, I'll look
(23:30):
at this, Yeah, so realquick, how'd you get how'd you land
him? Because he's awesome, thrilledto hear you say that. So you
know he's from Austin. He isan Austin legend. He's been in I
think in his bio he says he'sbeen in like fifty south By Southwest projects
or something. It's nice. Andhe actually was the star of the first
(23:52):
feature I ever worked on ever,when Lovers of Hate, which was directed
by Brian Poyser and we filmed intwo thousand and nine in Park City,
and I had a small acting rolein it. I had a couple of
scenes with him and then worked Iwas an assistant camera. That movie was
actually shot by David Lowry, who'ssince gone on to like truly explode the
(24:18):
projects he's doing these days. Butyeah, that that shoot was like really
tight knit. We slept in thehouse that we filmed in. There was
like an eight person crew, fourperson cast, So I just kind of
naturally got to know him pretty well. He's a goofy dude, you know.
I call him Duber. He's areal Duber. And he eventually moved
(24:40):
out here probably like eight years agonow or something, and he's been,
you know, steadily working out hereever since. I've been wanting him to
be in something ever since working withthem, And you know, it was
pretty early in our writing process thatI pitched him to Devon as like this
guy would nail this. Yeah,I mean, Zach knew all these actors
from previous projects. Is basically everyoneZach's ever worked with, not not not
(25:04):
everyone, but you know he heyou had worked with everyone, every other
actor before on this movie, whichis which is cool, And I think
that was important, Uh, youknow, to have that trust to get
people to buy into going out tothe desert with us for two weeks,
(25:25):
you know, in our first feature. Uh, you know, it was
a lot so but Dubec. Dubecwas great. Obviously, I shared a
lot of my scenes with him,and you know, he's a really like
philosophical guy, like really thoughtful guy, and you know he'll he'll he'll give
(25:45):
it to you different ways, likehe doesn't do the same take twice,
which I respect, and I'll giveyou options and he's just he just gets
he's in it. And I reallyenjoyed getting known him and in enacting with
them. So yeah, yeah,I use in a film I watched recently
called Bloodfest ended up. I lovedit so much. I had the director
(26:07):
on similar in this situation. Sobefore I let you guys go, is
there anything I should have asked youthat I haven't? You know what someone
asked us pretty recently, just justlike a kind of general what's what is?
What's something you would impart to anotherfirst time filmmaker that you learned in
(26:29):
the process of making this And Ithink that got some pretty good answers out
of us. Are you down todo that again? Dev sure, because
this is a good anecdote that Ijust like, I feel like I learned
so freaking much from is that?You know? September twenty twenty one,
we were gearing up to go outinto Joshua Tree and shoot this whole thing.
(26:51):
We had its schedule, we'd bookedthe locations, we were that was
what we were honing in on.About three, maybe even two weeks out,
me and our DP, Jordan Blackand our AD kind of looked at
each other. We're in the warroom, we're deep in it right now,
trying to just schedule this thing out, and we knew we weren't ready.
(27:15):
We like, we're just not ready. We can't our budgets so shoe
string that we can only shoot theexact amount of days that we need.
We can't afford to figure it outout there, and like the scope that
we're trying to shoot at two,we can't just go handheld and just bang
it out like we're trying to likereally achieve something elevated here that we just
can't afford to push the chips inright now. So we still shot Act
(27:37):
one, all this stuff with theBronco, all of that we filmed that
we felt ready for that, we'dhad that on paper for a long time,
but we delayed Act two and threea good five months. We waited
until February March of twenty twenty twoto go back out, and actually by
that time found a whole different location. But in those five months, we
(27:59):
went out there ultiple times with standin actors, photo boarding, renting our
camera, testing with the lights inthe day, and then not. You
know, I've just never been thatthoroughly prepared by the time we got to
set, and I really think itsaved our butts in so many ways.
And another interesting kind of hindsight thingis it gave us a chance to cut
together what we shot of Act oneand realized that we were in that bronco
(28:23):
a good ten minutes too long,dropping way too much exposition in that scene,
and we wrote that bar scene,that bar scene wasn't in the movie.
Oh that's that's a great revelation,isn't that crazy? So it kind
of saved one for us. Andit was the last scene Dev and I
got to shoot together, so wehad all this experience of shooting the whole
film and then got to shoot thatlast which made that chemistry so, you
(28:48):
know, palpable, like there's justso much about having weight that that My
wife laughed at that bartender. Shethought that was funny. Oh she's the
best. She's also from us,and I've got it. I've got a
kick out of that, I gotone. Speaking of that bar scene,
here's an the original question, whatwould you advice? Would you get?
(29:11):
My advice to actors when I learnedthis the hard way is when you're chugging
fake beer, you don't have todo it every time and every shot.
Wait for your close up. Becauseby the time I got to my close
up, I had chugged about twelveof them, and the thirteenth one was
great, and U Joe Brady,our assistant camera who's who was dpeing that
(29:37):
that scene, said one more,one more, one more, come on,
one more, and so number numberfourteen, I said, I'm gonna
I'm gonna do this, but I'mgonna go throw up, and I I
did it. He loved it.I went to the bathroom and threw up
very loudly. Oh that's terrible.And we ended I'm not even using the
(30:00):
last take. We use the secondto last take, but I had we
had to go and shoot shoot therest of our conversation at the bar after
that. Yeah, And so weran out of time. And so by
the time we got to Devon's coverage, his ots off deck drawn Direx the
bar owners in the back like tellingus like you got wrap this up.
(30:22):
Devon got one take of all thatcoverage. He's in the back, like
like right in my eye line,just like you know, tapping his foot,
you know, just like all right, guys, you know we gotta
open up here. Wow, Sothat is some true dedication. Yeah,
don't chuge the grape. Choose untilyou have to. Yes, that's a
lesson, and nyme wrap mine up. It's just if you can't. I
(30:47):
know, there are plenty of situationswhere you simply can't delay. But if
you have more time, if youcan take more time and feel like you
need to, you don't have topush the chipps in until you really truly
have to listen to this conversation.I can really see how you guys wrote
yourselves into your characters. So that'sfantastic. The name is Foile, Zach
(31:10):
Green, Devin Rourke. Thank youso much, guys. Really look forward
to two more stuff coming from you, and congratulations on the premiere. Thanks
for listening. If you liked theshow, please subscribe and share on your
social media. Make sure to visitus at the successful screenunter dot com,
where you can chat with us aboutanything and everything screenwriting on our dedicated forums.
(31:33):
I'll see you there
You are listening to the IH podcastNetwork. For more amazing filmmaking and screenwriting
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(00:28):
the tools, resources and support youneed to launch your screenwriting career for free.
Now onto our show. All right, welcome to the show. I'm
very excited about today's guests. We'vegot the writers and also the director behind
a really fun comedy out there calledFoil right now. It's making the festival
(00:49):
rounds and it's I've got the writerdirector Zach Green, and fellow writers well
Devin O'Rourke, and they're both alsoactually star in the film. Thanks for
being guys. Thanks great to behaving us, real to be here.
Well, what I really wanted todo about getting you on the show and
talking about this is I often tellwriters people, listen to the show.
(01:11):
You know, make your opportunities happenfor you. Don't just write a script
and wait around hoping. Sometimes somewheresomeone will believe in you. And that's
what you guys are doing. Youguys wrote this thing, directed it,
you're putting it out there. You'vegot a premiere at the Chinese Theater.
Absolutely amazing. You guys are makingit happen. So I really want to
(01:34):
kind of get into the birth ofthe project, your origin stories of how
you guys met and how this thingstarted moving forward. Yeah, yeah,
absolutely so. Devin and I areboth Texas boys. He grew up in
Houston. I grew up in Austin. Devin end up going to ut and
(01:55):
funny enough, we did not meetout there. We met out here in
La College buddy, old college buddythat knew Devon first, and the more
he got to know about Devon,the more he realized we had a lot
of like Texas Will Go indie films. So I think he introduced us,
like twenty seventeen, twenty eighteen.I remember the first thing we did,
Devon was we hung out at yourplace and we watched Good Time, and
(02:17):
then we played a ton of WillGo. It was a good it was
a good time. It was agood time, and we played h Yeah,
that's that's my earliest memory too.Yeah, I really do think that
was our first hang solid, Hangsolid guy, hang right there. And
it wasn't too long after that thatDevon asked me to be a part of
(02:39):
a short he was working on.He'd sort of written it for the two
of us, really simple, justtwo guys talking in my in my kitchen
and uh sort of like living room. Shot it in a day, banged
it out. It was like weeksbefore the pandemic hit and lockdown hit,
so we felt really lucky that ithappened when it happened, and we had
(03:01):
such a good time man that wejust you know, it kind of just
immediately was like, Okay, let'sdo that again. But can we do
it bigger? You know, howmuch bigger can we get than that?
And you know, I find myselfsaying this all the time, but in
a weird way, I think thepandemic and lockdown and just being forced to
be home and you know it gaveus the time and the space to really
(03:23):
develop something, you know, muchbigger than I think we even expected going
into it. And dev if youwant to fill in any holes, yeah,
no, I mean, you know, we'd known each other for a
while and you know, we startedgoing acting workshops together leading up to the
(03:44):
short. That's right, made theshort, and like Zach said, we
just realized that we worked well togetheron and off screen, and we were
both just kind of, I think, hungry to make a feature. And
we'd both been a part of smallerprojects. Zach actually in a couple of
features. You know, I hadmade a series of short films, and
(04:04):
I I was just thinking, youknow, what can we do that kind
of brings this sensibility, this dialoguedriven style to a genre, to the
sci fi because we both are scifi fans. We both you know,
our students of UFO and paranormal cases. Like, we realized we had that
(04:26):
in common too, So it waslike, you know, how can we
marry those those two things? Andthen we also had an airstream trailer and
a piece of land in Joshua Tree, So that kind of was the beginnings
of all right, what can whatcan I ride around that? So I
had the title Foil. I hadjust the basic concept of two guys discovering
(04:47):
a weird piece of foil in thedesert and arguing over it. But at
that time I was sort of thinkingof it more like a play like playing
out in real time. Uh,kind of like like Richard Linklater's tape.
You've seen that it's like basically anargument between two guys in real time,
and that that was kind of myprototype at the time. But when I
(05:10):
brought it to Zach, You're superexcited about it, and we realized we
could develop it into something more funand funny. So so, Zach,
let me ask you this, becausewhen I co write a comedy with somebody,
I'm actively writing it with them.I don't like to pass off drafts.
I like to work on it activelywith them and see if I can
(05:33):
get a beat that makes the otherwriter laugh. Because if I can do
that, then I know I havesomething and an audience is going to get
to. So there were there aremoments between that guy between that when you
guys are passing the script back andforth they're working on it, and you
just make the other person crack up, and you go, Okay, this
is money, this is what we'resupposed to do. Totally. Yeah,
(05:58):
So when we were really getting likefirst passes on the draft done, we
would do a thing where again Ithink the pandemic lent itself to this system,
but we really enjoyed it where thetwo of us would go off and
write it separately and sort of youknow, have like the very bare bones
beats that need to maybe happen,but otherwise, you know, mostly just
trusting the other one to just trystuff. Yeah, you know, try
(06:21):
to surprise the other one with abit with a punchline with you know,
sometimes even whole scenes and concepts wehadn't talked about. If you feel inspired,
write it down, send it over. We'd usually look at each other's
drafts, piece together our favorite versionof that, and then to like really
polish it, we'd meet up inmy backyard and just record us improving those
(06:42):
beats again like that, and thenyou know, making each other laugh in
the improv listening back to the recordingof it, and you know a lot
of times, like just verbatim writingdown how it just happened to come out
in the improv would end up beingwhat was on the page. And then
you know what's funny about that iswhen you're two improv comfortable guys, that
(07:03):
also means that on the day shootingthat can happen too. You know,
we definitely would we reserved the spaceand the right to try different deliveries and
different approaches to lines. You know, we weren't like letter of the law
about it was more spirit of thelaw. Yeah, I mean I would
say we're both actors first, writerssecond, you know, And with that
(07:30):
in mind, we kind of realizedthat, you know, the discovery of
that came out of reading it togetherand performing it and discovering new things that
way, it was going to bebetter than anything we could right before things
that came out naturally. I mean, like, you know, I'm not
the Cohen Brothers, Like I'm notgetting like strict about you know, the
(07:54):
letter of the law, like Zachsays, like it the way that we're
going to say it in a prois probably going to feel more natural and
better than the way we had writtenit. And it also, you know,
we were able to unlock other aspectsof the script on a character and
plot level through those those sessions.So when I work with a co writer,
(08:18):
we'll usually go, Okay, we'regonna do sixty forty. So like
I started this concept sixty forty,so I'll have like final say, or
if it's fifty fifty, then wereally have to respect each other's notes,
did you guys have any kind ofa balance that way. Was it a
fifty fifty Was it a sixty fortywhere one of you's like, Okay,
that's it hard, stop, thisis not working, we need to change
(08:41):
it. I would say it was. It was pretty fifty fifty. Again,
I think because we're, as Devsaid, actors first, writers second,
there wasn't a huge There wasn't anyego to it. It was just
about what feels like it works best. Now, mind you, that also
means with that much openness and trust, it doesn't mean that there were plenty
(09:01):
there that there were not plenty ofversions of this movie that we would kind
of go down these rabbit holes.And you know, there was a good
while where we were playing with likea time loop aspect and that Tom and
Rambo were older versions of us trappedin that. I had a theory of
that at one point. So yeah, I'm glad that there's still like a
(09:22):
shell of it in there, andthat I you know, I think I
let us down that rabbit hole alot further than we ought to have.
And you know, I think anytime travel concept, the more you think
about it, the more you goinsane. And so Devin was always really
good at identifying, like I thinkthis is officially a brick wall. Let's
take three steps back and go rightinstead of left and see how that feels,
(09:43):
which is like something I'm you know, I'm obsessive. I can if
I hit that brick wall, Iusually walk away frustrated, you know,
but it was good. I'm grailingit back in. I mean, Zach
just says a brilliant imagination, andhe's able to like take things to the
extreme in a good way. Andyou know, I'm an editor, so
like I have the editor brand oflike do we need that? Like is
(10:07):
that necessary? So you know,in some ways I was kind of like
editing Zach's great ideas, like pullingit back twenty percent, uh, you
know, to a place that feltyou'd better. But you know, like
I think that was it was fiftyfifty because you know, we were writing,
(10:30):
we would write, take our individualpasses at the same scene, like
we would have the scenes catched out. We would each write our version,
look at it, recording, improvtogether, and just arrive on a consolidated
draft. And sometimes those drafts,those separate drafts were very similar, and
sometimes, like you know, Zack'swas very different like when in a completely
different direction, and so it gaveus a lot of things to consider,
(10:52):
and it gave us different different vantagepoints. So you say, you say
to me, editing brain, butwhat leaps out to me is producer's brain.
Right, because you guys are fundingthis thing, right, You've got
you've got funding, and before wekind of like launch into that, it
makes a lot of sense that you'regoing to go and like, yeah,
that all makes sense, but we'regonna cutback on this twenty percent because we
(11:13):
have a budget or we only haveso much story to tell. So I
think that's brilliant. And that isone thing that writers can struggle with is
well, I want, I haveall these great ideas, but then you
have to be like, oh,I have to pull it back. But
before we kind of like go intofunding, I actually want to ask you
about the theme of the story becauseas I was watching the film play out,
(11:35):
you know, the main theme isfriendship. Right, The main theme
is friendship, But if you goeven deeper into the theme, it's really
being honest with yourself about who youare to your friend. And I like
that it plays so well between yourtwo characters and also between Tom and ramble
because again I'm not going to giveaway spoilers, but there's a big revelation
(11:58):
of who those two are and theirfriendship and how they're kind of hiding from
each other. So was this somethingthat you were kind of exploring with your
own friendship as you guys were workingon the script and making this film,
because I have to assume there wassome stress there and so and then you
you know, start you know,life imitates art imitates life, right.
(12:22):
I think I think you are rightthat, you know, Devin and I
have said many times throughout this processthat we're very much a ying and yang
pair. Or you know, anotherthing that we've joked about a lot is
how all the main characters are foilsof each other. I think I like
that there are ways that that Devand I are foils of ourselves, you
know, And I think Dev touchedon it a little bit before, and
(12:46):
he said it previously two that youknow, if he is on the side
of undercooking an idea, I areon the side of overcooking idea. And
that's how you kind of get thebest loaf of bread is you know,
can't balance without those two versus kindof pulling it there. But again,
like no, we also never reallygot like in any creative disputes or fights
(13:09):
or you know, at no pointdid it feel like stressful. It felt
like, you know, for meat least, like like finally someone is
working on me with something that canbe that voice to like stop me from
jumping off the cliff. You know, yeah, I mean, yeah,
(13:30):
I think I think that those aregood observations about uh, you know,
the idea of of sort of beinghonest with your friend about who you are,
and you know, like one ofthe things we talked about a lot
on the script level is like whyare they going to the desert? You
know, that was something that wekind of came back around, and I
realized eventually that that's kind of thepoint that the the terms are not communicate
(13:54):
communicated clearly between them, and that'swhat leads to conflicts they both having municated
why we're doing this, and Rex'swithholding information about his true goals and Dexter's
lying about you know, his situationin his own way. You know,
Like, like Zach said, wewere pretty harmonious throughout the one time that
(14:16):
we did kind of there were acouple of times like we it was usually
we forgot a shot. For example, we forgot to get a shot when
we were like way out parked inthe desert. And that first scene when
we're arguing, uh, going upthe mountain after we have got after we
got of the out of the bronco, that was the time where I think
(14:39):
we actually were a little chippy witheach other at that point, and I
think it. I think it showsand the scene Uh and me. And
also there was gunfire going off likeover our heads during that scene. There
was like there's a shooting range,uh, somewhere close, and so you
know, we have like these bullets, these hounds going off, like we're
(15:01):
kind of mad at each other.The sun's going down. But I think
it all think it all worked forthe same. I think if I think
if you've no you're fine. Ithink if you've gone through a filmmaking process
and I can and I can saythis it really I mean I've never served,
but I feel like you've gone tobattle, you know, and you
(15:24):
have like this, you have thisspecial relationship with that other person, like
you're like you've you've both seen somestuff, you know, and so you've
gone through it. And I thinkit really like filmmaking really does bring people
together because like you can't. Imean, everybody's going to see who you
are and you have to kind ofmake everything work. And I think that's
one of the reasons why like fortyeight hour film festivals, you get these
(15:48):
groups of people together, they're friendsfor life, and it's for a reason,
you know, because stress brings peopletogether. And I think there's no
really a greater stress than filmmaking inthat moment. So I think it totally
makes sense. So let's let's goon to funding. Like I always like
to ask this question because a lotof people they self fund or they are
(16:08):
able to get investors, And sohow difficult was it for you to raise
capital to get this thing going?It was definitely a journey for sure.
We we didn't you know, wedidn't ever have a you know, production
company or distribution or sales agent oryou know. This is one percent community
(16:32):
funded by ourselves, friends and family, which you know, feels like like
a miracle. We feel kind oflike a unicorn in that way that you
know, we just kind of flewunder the radar and found a way to
do this. But no, yeah, so I mean we we both have
chipped in ourselves to make this possible. We did a go fund me and
(16:55):
pre production to get us started,and then we did a Kickstarter for post
production because we were completely out ofmoney by that point. Sure, but
both were like wildly successful. Honestly, I have to like really gip my
hat to my mom, my momDucer, I guess you could call her.
She's a very uh, kind ofone of a kind, outgoing lady.
(17:18):
She's wont herself a couple of Toni'sproducing on Broadway and just I think,
and that's just within the last likefive years or so. It's fantastic,
and that in particular, I thinkshe tapped into a world there when
she got into the Broadway people thatwe got some really solid support from from
that circle of of of folks.And and again all of them were it
(17:41):
was, you know, strictly likedonation base, like none of them were
signing on to get anything back,Like we still own the entire movie.
It's really kind of mind blowing andalso feels like a one time thing,
you know what I mean, LikeI don't think we could go and ask
everyone we know to do this again. But also all our friends, you
know, our friends chipped into theKickstarter and you know we're you know,
(18:07):
there's support. The Big Guy waswas really really awesome, and you know,
it made us feel great, butit also made us feel like,
all right, we now have aresponsibility to make this thing good, not
only to finish it, but tomake it good because people are literally invested
and we want them to like themovie. So now I think that's important.
(18:30):
But it also really it's important forwriters who are looking to get their
stuff made out there that if youdon't put it out there and ask,
you won't receive, Like you haveto let people don't like, hey,
I'm doing this. Are you interestedin supporting it? And then and then
being completely honest like, here's whatour expectations are. You know, here's
what we're gonna do. Not sella lie and be totally honest with them,
(18:55):
and you would be surprised at howmany people will help you achieve that
dream. Right, So I thinkit's important to absolutely put it out there.
Where where So you have the bigpremiere tonight at the Chinese Theater,
which is absolutely amazing. Congratulations.So where are we going from here?
(19:15):
What's what's the what's the future holdfor you guys with the film or just
with in general in general, well, with the film, you know,
Dances with Films was a real eyeopener for us because they accepted us in
the midnight section, and you know, we knew we were a genre film,
(19:37):
but it's sort of like lowercase Mmidnight. You know, it's not
like super fucked up gory, youknow. But like we so when we
were submitting to festivals, we werejust unsure of how we were going to
play as more of a comedy ormore of a sci fi. And I
think we're thrilled to get this kindof clarification, like that's the audience that
(20:00):
wants to see this is the midnightfolks. So you know, we're submitted
to many more festivals through the endof the year. You know, only
so many of them have midnight sectionsor our genre based festival. You know,
obviously, like Fantastic Best in Austinwould be a dream for us.
So we're looking forward to to togetting you know, into maybe a couple
(20:23):
of those spaces, meeting a coupleof those folks. We're definitely very much
still looking for, you know,the right choice in terms of distribution,
you know, more to come hopefullyafter tonight with that, and and then
as far as just in general,at least for me. You know,
(20:44):
we really went all in on thismovie for the last two and a half
years. You know, I don'tthink there was really a whole just given
how many hats we were wearing,there wasn't a whole lot of time to
think about other things. You know, I'd say maybe when we locked in
January was the first time I reallyfelt like I could think about another idea,
right, and I do have one. I have like, you know,
(21:06):
if you swapped the sci fi formore monster movie, but you know
pretty much all the other sensibilities broughtto Foil, that you'd have the right
idea, you know, maybe swapthe desert for the beach and swap sci
fi for monsters. That that's sortof what I'm like leaning toward in the
future. But you know, stillvery very early and obviously, like,
I want to remain open to kindof anything that comes as a results of
(21:30):
our work on Foil. You know, I think we both loved acting in
and we'd love to act more.You know, Yeah, I want to
remain open, but also focus.You have something to be focused on if
if I have the time, whatabout you do? Have what you what?
You? What you pondering? Yeah, I'd like to act more too.
I really loved that aspect of it. You know, I just echo
(21:55):
Zac. I think that the processof working together, we've come out to
others. I still friends, stilltalking to each other, which is,
you know, a minor miracle initself. But we've also learned, we
sort of established a playbook for howto do this, how to make a
feature. There was so many pointsalong the way, you know, where
(22:18):
we encountered a stage of the processorslike all right, how do we do
this and who do we do itwith? So we found some great people
and we've found, you know,some some best practices, I guess,
and I like how to make amovie like this whole process was about discovery
for me, honestly, and likelearning both being on set and also just
(22:41):
from a producers angle with Zach asyou know, as co creators of our
our company, like how do weshepherd this thing at each step? And
you know, it was an education. So, you know, I love
to keep acting. I'm always tryingto develop script ideas, but yeah,
(23:07):
remaining open, We'll see what happens. I'm still I feel like, I,
you know, until Foyle is outin the world, I'm not going
to really be able to completely shiftmy focus. Yeah, you guys are
still in the middle of it.I have to ask how you got Chrissy
Dubeck because that guy's like acting legend. He's in everything, everywhere, all
the time. It's pretty amazing.And so sound was like, I'll look
(23:30):
at this, Yeah, so realquick, how'd you get how'd you land
him? Because he's awesome, thrilledto hear you say that. So you
know he's from Austin. He isan Austin legend. He's been in I
think in his bio he says he'sbeen in like fifty south By Southwest projects
or something. It's nice. Andhe actually was the star of the first
(23:52):
feature I ever worked on ever,when Lovers of Hate, which was directed
by Brian Poyser and we filmed intwo thousand and nine in Park City,
and I had a small acting rolein it. I had a couple of
scenes with him and then worked Iwas an assistant camera. That movie was
actually shot by David Lowry, who'ssince gone on to like truly explode the
(24:18):
projects he's doing these days. Butyeah, that that shoot was like really
tight knit. We slept in thehouse that we filmed in. There was
like an eight person crew, fourperson cast, So I just kind of
naturally got to know him pretty well. He's a goofy dude, you know.
I call him Duber. He's areal Duber. And he eventually moved
(24:40):
out here probably like eight years agonow or something, and he's been,
you know, steadily working out hereever since. I've been wanting him to
be in something ever since working withthem, And you know, it was
pretty early in our writing process thatI pitched him to Devon as like this
guy would nail this. Yeah,I mean, Zach knew all these actors
from previous projects. Is basically everyoneZach's ever worked with, not not not
(25:04):
everyone, but you know he heyou had worked with everyone, every other
actor before on this movie, whichis which is cool, And I think
that was important, Uh, youknow, to have that trust to get
people to buy into going out tothe desert with us for two weeks,
(25:25):
you know, in our first feature. Uh, you know, it was
a lot so but Dubec. Dubecwas great. Obviously, I shared a
lot of my scenes with him,and you know, he's a really like
philosophical guy, like really thoughtful guy, and you know he'll he'll he'll give
(25:45):
it to you different ways, likehe doesn't do the same take twice,
which I respect, and I'll giveyou options and he's just he just gets
he's in it. And I reallyenjoyed getting known him and in enacting with
them. So yeah, yeah,I use in a film I watched recently
called Bloodfest ended up. I lovedit so much. I had the director
(26:07):
on similar in this situation. Sobefore I let you guys go, is
there anything I should have asked youthat I haven't? You know what someone
asked us pretty recently, just justlike a kind of general what's what is?
What's something you would impart to anotherfirst time filmmaker that you learned in
(26:29):
the process of making this And Ithink that got some pretty good answers out
of us. Are you down todo that again? Dev sure, because
this is a good anecdote that Ijust like, I feel like I learned
so freaking much from is that?You know? September twenty twenty one,
we were gearing up to go outinto Joshua Tree and shoot this whole thing.
(26:51):
We had its schedule, we'd bookedthe locations, we were that was
what we were honing in on.About three, maybe even two weeks out,
me and our DP, Jordan Blackand our AD kind of looked at
each other. We're in the warroom, we're deep in it right now,
trying to just schedule this thing out, and we knew we weren't ready.
(27:15):
We like, we're just not ready. We can't our budgets so shoe
string that we can only shoot theexact amount of days that we need.
We can't afford to figure it outout there, and like the scope that
we're trying to shoot at two,we can't just go handheld and just bang
it out like we're trying to likereally achieve something elevated here that we just
can't afford to push the chips inright now. So we still shot Act
(27:37):
one, all this stuff with theBronco, all of that we filmed that
we felt ready for that, we'dhad that on paper for a long time,
but we delayed Act two and threea good five months. We waited
until February March of twenty twenty twoto go back out, and actually by
that time found a whole different location. But in those five months, we
(27:59):
went out there ultiple times with standin actors, photo boarding, renting our
camera, testing with the lights inthe day, and then not. You
know, I've just never been thatthoroughly prepared by the time we got to
set, and I really think itsaved our butts in so many ways.
And another interesting kind of hindsight thingis it gave us a chance to cut
together what we shot of Act oneand realized that we were in that bronco
(28:23):
a good ten minutes too long,dropping way too much exposition in that scene,
and we wrote that bar scene,that bar scene wasn't in the movie.
Oh that's that's a great revelation,isn't that crazy? So it kind
of saved one for us. Andit was the last scene Dev and I
got to shoot together, so wehad all this experience of shooting the whole
film and then got to shoot thatlast which made that chemistry so, you
(28:48):
know, palpable, like there's justso much about having weight that that My
wife laughed at that bartender. Shethought that was funny. Oh she's the
best. She's also from us,and I've got it. I've got a
kick out of that, I gotone. Speaking of that bar scene,
here's an the original question, whatwould you advice? Would you get?
(29:11):
My advice to actors when I learnedthis the hard way is when you're chugging
fake beer, you don't have todo it every time and every shot.
Wait for your close up. Becauseby the time I got to my close
up, I had chugged about twelveof them, and the thirteenth one was
great, and U Joe Brady,our assistant camera who's who was dpeing that
(29:37):
that scene, said one more,one more, one more, come on,
one more, and so number numberfourteen, I said, I'm gonna
I'm gonna do this, but I'mgonna go throw up, and I I
did it. He loved it.I went to the bathroom and threw up
very loudly. Oh that's terrible.And we ended I'm not even using the
(30:00):
last take. We use the secondto last take, but I had we
had to go and shoot shoot therest of our conversation at the bar after
that. Yeah, And so weran out of time. And so by
the time we got to Devon's coverage, his ots off deck drawn Direx the
bar owners in the back like tellingus like you got wrap this up.
(30:22):
Devon got one take of all thatcoverage. He's in the back, like
like right in my eye line,just like you know, tapping his foot,
you know, just like all right, guys, you know we gotta
open up here. Wow, Sothat is some true dedication. Yeah,
don't chuge the grape. Choose untilyou have to. Yes, that's a
lesson, and nyme wrap mine up. It's just if you can't. I
(30:47):
know, there are plenty of situationswhere you simply can't delay. But if
you have more time, if youcan take more time and feel like you
need to, you don't have topush the chipps in until you really truly
have to listen to this conversation.I can really see how you guys wrote
yourselves into your characters. So that'sfantastic. The name is Foile, Zach
(31:10):
Green, Devin Rourke. Thank youso much, guys. Really look forward
to two more stuff coming from you, and congratulations on the premiere. Thanks
for listening. If you liked theshow, please subscribe and share on your
social media. Make sure to visitus at the successful screenunter dot com,
where you can chat with us aboutanything and everything screenwriting on our dedicated forums.
(31:33):
I'll see you there
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