February 17, 2022 • 41 mins
In 2004, a criminal profiler named Dean Wideman produced a generalized profile of the possible killer. In this episode I talk to Jen Bucholtz and George Jared about this profile. Jen teaches Forensics and Criminal Justice at American Military University. She also hosts a podcast called 'Break the Case.' George is a a true crime author and investigative reporter. He also hosts a podcast called 'Diamond State Murder Board.' This is an informative conversation that provides alot of insight on who might be responsible for these murders.
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Episode Transcript
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(00:01):
This is a true story, butthe opinions of people interviewed or talk to
you are just that opinions, notfacts unless stated otherwise. Opinions stated by
witnesses are not to be seen asthe opinions of the Swedie AA project or
anyone working for the podcast, andthe credibility of those opinions is to be
determined by the listener. Everyone haspresumed innocent until proven otherwise in a court
(00:24):
of law. In this episode,we have interviews with George Jared and Jen
Boo Colts to discuss the profile ofthe person who might be suspected of committing
(00:49):
these murders. George Jared is thehost of Diamond State murder Board podcast.
He's also an investigative reporter along withbeing a true crime author. Jen Booklets
also hosts a podcast called Break theCase where George Jared joins her. She
also teaches forensics and criminal justice atAmerican Military University. Along with myself,
(01:15):
George and Jen are members of theCase Breakers. So we have a great
conversation coming for you. We're goingto talk about the profile that was done
for the Oklahoman. We're also goingto talk about a lot of other stuff
involving these cases. So here ismy interview with George Jared and Jen Boucolts.
(01:46):
Welcome to swede Anna Project. Wedo have some special guests on with
us today. Christina was unable tojoin us, but George and Jen she
wanted to say thank you for comingon and she is sorry that she could
not make it. But let's justkind of get started with this. I'm
joined by George Jared and Jen Vukolts. George, would you like to introduce
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yourself and tell people who you areand about your podcast? Sure? Justin.
My name is George Jared. I'man investigative reporter and a true crime
author. I also host a truecrime podcast called Diamond State Murder Board.
We concentrade on about it. It'sa type of podcast where we do about
half and half we do cases outof Arkansas, you know, some of
(02:30):
the higher profile cases out of thisstate. But then we also do we
do episodes on cases out of statealmost exclusively. We do cases that I
have some connection to that I've eitherwritten about or talked about nationally, and
that's pretty much what I do.I also write a lot about politics and
business on the for Talk Business andpolitics. It's a media company based on
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Little Rock, Arkansas. Awesome,how about you, Jen Well George,
and you're my co host on Breakthe Case. And I as soon as
I said that, I was like, wait a minute, forgetting one major
thing. My name's Jim Bookcls andI teach forensics and criminal justice at American
Military University and I'm an Army veteranand private investigator and recently became podcast host
(03:17):
for podcast at AMU produces and doesa great job on. It's called Break
the Case. And we did thingsin backwards order, but we released season
two first, which was on themurder of Debrah Sue Williamson, and that's
the case that me and Georgia currentlyinvestigating basically our sole investigative focus at the
moment. And then we just droppedseason one again, I know it's backwards
(03:42):
order. So yeah, we rebrandedthe podcast episodes we've done on the Rebecca
Gold case the season one since theywere actually recorded a year to two years
ago, and we're in the processof making some new episodes on Rebecca's case
as well as Debbie's. So andthen all three of us are volunteer investigator
members for the Case Breakers, whichhas been in the news a lot lately
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for the Zodiac case stuff. Yeah, I wanted to have you guys on,
as you know, to kind ofgo over what you guys thought about
the profile, and I sent yousome of the information about when all those
law enforcement agencies got together. Honestly, it's one of the very few times
I think law enforcement agencies at thattime involving this case actually got together and
(04:30):
traded information and traded autopsy photos andcrime scene photos. And even in that
article they do state that they haveevidence that they have not released to the
public yet, which is probably theevidence that connects a lot of the cases
together. So if you guys would, I'm going to go over the profile
real quick, because I really amcurious to hear your guys's thoughts on this.
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So in two thousand and four,a Dean Wideman, he was at
the time a Texas based criminal profiler. He was a consulting forensic scientist
as well, and he was avery highly respected guy, and the Oklahoman
actually reached out to him to doa profile on these murders. And it's
like me and you have talked offrecord, all three of us actually that
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the police had always said they weregoing to get a profile and kind of
dig into it deeper, but theynever really did, so the Oklahoman took
it upon themselves to do it.So here's the vague and simple profile that
we got. The killer is awhite male in his late twenties early forties.
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Wideman said. They generally stay withinthe same race as the victims.
You can't really at this point saydefinitively that he isn't black or Hispanic,
but the educated guest as he's Caucasian. Because of the evolutionary process involved,
We're clearly not dealing with a teenager. I would say late twenties at the
youngest. The killer has a limitededucation, but isn't stupid. He's taking
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anything that has any forensic value.These guys commonly do know about forensics.
They read the textbooks or novels ornonfiction paperbacks. Most of these serial killers
are intelligent. And lastly, thekiller probably does not have a criminal record.
Normally, they fit in society,they work, they do a good
job. They look like everyone else, but might have some small infraction.
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But I don't get a feeling hehas an extensive record. Usually those that
have a violent history. Are theones who just go crazy on the victims
with post mortem mutilation. They'll stranglethem and then butcher them. This guy
doesn't seem to be doing that.The killer's motivation, in part, is
to rid the world of prostitutes.The victim has to fit their role in
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the mind of this guy. Ithink, given the information we have,
the victim profile for him is prostitutes. It's a cleansing of society. It
doesn't matter what you look like.If you are a prostitute, you're a
victim. And that was read toStreet from the Oaklahoman, and like I
said, it was Kidman was quotedin that. So, I mean,
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we've tossed this idea around about thereligious factor, and we talked about it
a little bit on our last episode. But what do you guys think about
that profile and do you agree withit? It's hard to agree or disagree
at the profile just for the simplefact that it's too broad. Honestly,
yeah, there's too many people.The age range is so vast. And
even when he says, you know, I agree with them that serial killers
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tend to stay within their own racebecause they are culturally aware, and that's
just a fact. Caucasian people tendto have the same habits. Black people
tend to have the same habits,cultural habits, you know, Asian people,
Hispanic, whatever. So I agreewith him on that. As far
as the profile, I wish itcould have been a little It maybe been
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because of a lack of information,because it's really hard to develop a profile
like this. If you don't haveaccess to what the police have access to,
to be honest, and so you'renot cooperating with him, then he
can't come up with a more accurateprofile. I do think it's interesting that,
you know, just looking at allthe cases that have in the Latton
area and some of the ancillary casesthat were connected on I forty, getting
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into a broader perspective, I thinkthat it's very possible that all those cases
are connected. Because I don't drivingI forty is I've driven it many times.
It's not It wouldn't be an impossiblething to do. And like you
said, justin these guys they studyEd Bundy was the first serial killer who
said that he would intentionally do things. He would change his modus operandi intentionally
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to throw investigators off. He wouldintroduce evidence to a crime scene just to
throw them off. And so justby the simple fact that there are differences
in some of these cases potentially andwe don't know because the police aren't saying
I don't think that that's that thatautomatically should we should assume that it's not
one killer or a pair of killerspossibly may be working in concert with each
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other. I think it's clear thatthe person who killed at least some of
these girls is very familiar with thelat In area. And I also think
that the person is taking it mayhave And this is a problem that we
have in general, is this personis taking advantage of a system that is
flawed. And what I mean byis our law enforcement system, because you've
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got counties and cities and municipalities thatall have different jurisdictions, and so you
have different law enforcement agencies and there'sno requirement that they work together. And
in fact, it's in my experience, most law enforcement agencies are the antithesis
of that. They don't want towork with other agencies. It's for and
there's a lot of reasons. That'sa power thing, it's there's all sorts
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of different stuff. But just onthe face of it, I probably hope
we can find some maybe better informationto develop this profile better. Yeah,
and I agree with some parts ofthis profile, and I definitely disagree with
others, and we can get intothat. But I do agree with the
same that George said, like thekiller probably is Caucasian. It's just harder
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to lure victims or come up witha ruse to get victims to come your
way if you're a different ethnicity thanthey are, plain and simple, And
so I do agree that the killeris probably a white male. And you
know the Oklahoman said in his latetwenties to early forties, Well, that
was in two thousand and four thatthey did this profile. So keep in
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mind that now, and I agreewith that. I would actually narrow it
down to probably thirties to forties.It seems there's more sophistication in some of
this to me than somebody in theirtwenties would be able to accomplish. But
it's not impossible. But keep inmind now that person has aged, you
know, fifteen twenty years from whenthis profile was developed. The profeller said,
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the killer has limited educations, butthen is taking things of forensic value
from the scene. And I don'tthink that those two things necessarily equate.
You can be extremely smart and haveno street smarts and vice versa, as
we know. But keep in mind, when these murders are happening, our
forensic technology is still not highly developed. So I don't tend to agree that
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the person is disrobing the victims completelyjust because they're taking what we call forensic
countermeasures. I think there's more toit, and I think that that's part
of the sexual component behind the motive, because as we all know, like
it's really difficult to disrobe a deadbody. You've got to have a strong
motive or compulsion to do that.And so of course that leads me to
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why, Well, back when thesemurders were committed, there's no touch DNA
technology or anything like that. Now, if the killers stay ejaculated onto the
victim's clothing at that point in time, yet that could help law enforcement developed
a DNA profile. But then heejaculates stay onto the victims genes or underwear.
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Why are you taking all of theirclothing? You know, I don't.
I don't know that I agree withthis whole taking of the clothing and
other evidence just because it might haveforensic value. I think there may be
something else to it. Yeah,And you know another thing, you know,
another aspect of the case of thesecases that I think is very interesting
is the fact that these that thesewomen were found you know, nude,
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and they weren't, and they werefound in you know, rural places in
and around the lot in the area. I don't understand how in the world
anybody could have thought that there werejust random women who were just taking all
their clothes off and going and odeingor doing whatever. However, the coroner
ruled that they had died. Youknow, if you found an outlier case
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like that. And I even dida little research on things I've written about
in the past, I couldn't finda single case where I had and I've
written about many suicides in the past. I couldn't find a single case where
somebody just got naked and went outof the woods and took a bunch of
pills and died. So, whenI'm not saying it can't happen, it
probably can, and isolate it,and I'm sure it has. But to
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have this many in one area ofOklahoma is bizarre. I mean, number
one, and it should alarm bellshould have been going off well before all
this other stuff started to creep intothe newspapers and stuff like that. You
know, with the population of onehundred thousand people and you know, within
that short span, and then youhave the two year break and on top
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of that, and supposedly when thedeaths stopped, that's kind of when they
started rotating towards I should say,moving towards Oklahoma City. And we pointed
out the Casey Joe Pipe Stem caseon the last episode where she was a
young prostitute sex worker from Oklahoma Cityand she wound up in Grapevine, Texas.
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Her death was a little bit moreviolent than the other girls, though
she was actually strangled. She wasonly missing for a couple of days when
her body was found, but shewas beaten, strangled, and raped.
But they still connected her case becauseof evidence that has not been released to
the public yet. So it alwaysand again she was also stripped nude,
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and it's just that's kind of whyI wanted your guys's thoughts and opinion on
this was because there's just so muchhere. There's supposedly five six more cases
that are connected to this throughout otherstates, Arkansas being one of them.
In Texas and Mississippi as well,and they did tie one of the cases
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to John Robert Williams, who isa former truck driver who was in prison
for the death of Miss Hyman,and he admitted to a lot of the
murders, but he couldn't be tiedany of them. So we don't know
if he was just kind of braggingor if he actually isn't evolved or not.
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And I mean he's named names beforeof other people. He has actually
said that there's a group of truckdrivers who are doing this. Basically,
Well, that's something I wanted toaddress, is the truck driver theory,
because like, if we break itdown and think about it critically, I
understand that geographically it would make sensefor like a long haul trucker to maybe
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committing these crimes. Okay, sothe girls supposedly frequented truck stops, But
think about what goes into if youso you can pick up a sex worker
to truck stop, Fine, shewillingly gets in your truck and then you
go down the road and whatever happenshappens and she ends up killed. You
have a dead body to deal with, and this giant truck, where are
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you putting the body in this gianttruck. It is not easy to hoist
a dead body anywhere. Where areyou hiding the body while you find a
place to both of it? Notto mention Mike, one of them it
was Margaret Gardner, I read wasfound on an on ramp to I forty
and on ramp. I mean,how likely is it for you to be
able to pull your huge truck overonto the side of an on ramp and
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unload a dead body there without anybodynoticing. To me, the chance of
that is not high. I'm notsaying it's impossible. I don't think it's
plausible. So there's several things tome that say, I just don't feel
it's a truck driver. And thenthere's other bodies that were found in remote
areas, So how are they gettingthe bodies to those spots in a semi
truck? Probably not so if youthink about the actual logistics of unfortunately dealing
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with this dead body in the aftermathof murdering the person, it doesn't make
sense for me to be a truckdriver, at least not on like a
big semi truck. And I justwant to bring up that, like a
lot of people frequent truck stops fordifferent reasons. I know, like my
husband and I have a diesel ram, so we often look for trucks because
we can get diesel for cheaper,and then they usually have like a cafe
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or like a fast food type placewhere we can get somebod to eat.
At the same time, we seekout truck stops. If someone's calling a
camper or a trailer, we dothat too, But they also seek out
truck stops because there's more space,like to pull up to the pump,
to turn around the park, moremore than like a regular gas station.
So I think we need to lookoutside the box a little more than just
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the truck driver theory and think aboutwho else would be frequenting truck stops and
the interstate. I think there's severalother segments of a population that would fall
into that category. I don't knowwhat you think of that, George,
Yeah, I totally agree, onehundred I literally, that was a point
I was going to make today,was that the person maybe it may have
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some traits that we would associate witha truck driver, you know, being
at truck stops, you know,being on the interstate highway system, and
these bodies jumped in various places.But that does not mean that they are
a trucker. It just means thatthey go to truck stops. Because,
let's face it, I don't thinkif you'd asked any of the three of
us ten years ago, hey,do prostitutes hang out at truck stops,
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we would all say yes, justlike prostitutes hang out in casinos, you
know, or they hang out incertain on certain streets in certain towns like
in Lawton, and so we allwe all know these things. So somebody
who's praying on women, if I'mgonna if I want to go and kill
prostitutes, I'm going to go toplaces like that. So I agree one
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hundred percent. I'm not dismissing thepossibility that's a truck driver. And it
might be someone who has some truckdriving experience, you know, maybe they
were a truck driver for a fewyears, so maybe they know the ins
and outs of some of these townsand some of these places where they frequent.
But yeah, I most definitely Iwouldn't just focus in on truck drivers
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for sure. Yeah. One otherthing about truck stops is there's a lot
more vehicles frequentcying a truck stop andin a day than there is in like
a red light district of a citywhere you would pick up a sex worker.
My understanding is, like the sexworker industry at truck stops, I
know that they communicate with each other, the workers and stuff, but I
don't get the feeling that their communicationis as good as those that say,
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go to the same street, inthe same neighborhood night in and night out.
The truck stop is just more Idon't know what the right word is,
guys, but anyways, it's moreloosely connected. It's it's not as
close knit of a community for truckworkers as my understanding. And again,
you've got way more vehicle traffic,so if a suspicious vehicle comes through a
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truck stop, there's a less chanceof the sex worker population remembering it than
there is in a red light district. Hopefully that makes some sense. Yeah,
definitely. What do you guys thinkabout Wideman kind of putting in the
religious factor there. I think it'spossible if they haven't found any DNA or
anything like that, they haven't foundany semen or anything like that, I
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think I would probably give it alittle more credence I don't know. It's
again, it's kind of it's alittle vague, but I think it is
possible, you know, if it'ssome type of vigilante, I would expect
probably more bodies would have piled upby now, to be honest with,
unless something happened to that person.But Jenna, I don't know, what
do you think about that? Yeah, I don't agree with the kill that
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the motive being the killer wanting torid the world of prostitutes. To me,
there's clearly a sexual component to thesecrimes, particularly with the women being
left most of them being left nude, like George and I relearned on our
research into Debbie's case, when akiller strips the body of his victim naked,
he's having the last sexual interaction withher, whether there's actually sex going
on or not. He's the lastperson to undress her, and that is
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an intimate act. So to me, there's a sexual component behind these which
indicates to me that this killer isgetting some gratification from the murders. And
if you want to be a vigilante, why not go up like drug addicts
or sex offenders, you know,or I mean, there's why go to
all the trouble of luring or hiringa sex worker and then luring them in
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your vehicle, strangling them, disrubingthem, then having to go find a
disposal site. There's easier ways torid the world of prostitutes. And I'm
not trying to be you know,a brace of a crafts here, so
forgive me. But yeah, forsure, all of the actions this killer
is going to require so much work. I mean literally, you could get
a long range rightful, like theDC snipers did start shooting prostitutes, if
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you want to rid the world ofthem, that would be way easier than
what this killer is going through.So I just I don't tend to agree.
Yeah, And another thing is therisk. You know, when we
talk about this, you and Italk about this all the time. Every
action and when somebody commits a murder, everything is as it's a risk benefit
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ratio. And when you're moving abody around taking the clothes off, I
mean, even like you said,the act of pull it, taking the
clothes off is really hard when theperson is dead, and it takes the
time, and you're potentially even ifyou're savvy about you know, early two
thousands forensics, you know DNA andstuff like that. There's still the potential
to leave a hair that you can'taccount for. There's potential, and if
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there's been many victims, then almostcertainly the law of averages would say you
have left some of that genetic materialbehind. My suspicion, justin is that
in some of these earlier cases,especially when they thought it was you know,
a prostitute overdosing or committing suicide,my suspicion is that they didn't even
check for that type of evidence,that they didn't even look for the hairs
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or look for the seamen. Sosome of these women may vary. And
of course they're obviously they're in thesex worker trade, so if they do,
if there are signs that they hadrecently had sexual activity, they may
not even be taking you know,samples or doing a rape kit because they
think it's just a woman who's overdosedor committed suicide and she's it's such a
(23:00):
horrifying thing. But in our societywe just devalue people who do that type
of work. We've seen it timeand time again with serial killers, where
you know, prostitution and sex workersare just targeted because they're easier targets it's
just unfortunate. They're used to gettingin vehicles with strangers that they don't know,
you know, it's how they're makinga living, and so a killer
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knows that. You know, It'sa much easier way to abduct a victim
than what like Ted Bunny would do, which is he enjoyed obviously, like
creating a ruse and like actually talkingto the woman and whatnot. But with
sex workers, it's just a loteasier to get them into your car.
And I think that's what's gone onhere is that's the only reason that that
(23:42):
population was targeted, because it's easy. I mean, we've seen it like
Gary Ridgeway, the Greenway Killer,Green River killer, excuse me, exactly
the same thing. You know,he's got a red light district and pick
up a sex worker, and unfortunatelythey would become a victim. And they're
also not missed as much. Soif someone's working in prostitution, they're not
(24:03):
going home to their mom and dadevery night. You know, they may
be going home to a boyfriend ora roommate or something. But if they
don't come home for a few nights, it's probably not that unusual. So
that's another reason why it's just aneasy population to target for these guys,
because the women aren't going to bemissed as quickly as someone who you know,
(24:25):
has to go to a ninety fivejob every day or a tenth college
or something like that. Yeah,Jen, And there's another component of that
too, human beings, when wedo something a certain way and we and
we're rewarded for it. If there'sa reward, like if you go to
the gym and you do a certainexercise and your muscles get bigger or you
get your stamina increases, you havea tendency to go and do that same
(24:45):
exercise over and over again, evenafter it's not profiting you anymore. And
so this killer may have just hemay have done this with a prostitute the
first time. It was easy,and so again again he's just going to
go back to that. Well,but I think there may be some evidence,
you know, justin I'm sure we'lltalk about it a little bit,
(25:06):
but there may be some evidence thathe did expand it. If this is
indeed one person who's committing all thesekilling these women, it looks like he
may have expanded to a degree becausesome of them don't fit that profile that
was another thing I was curious aboutyour opinions because some of these people do
not fit that profile. Well,you know we talked about before. Okay,
(25:27):
there's a couple of possibilities, especiallywith the cases in and around Lotton.
Either you have one killer or maybea pair of killers. There may
be more than one who are operatingwith the same in the same realm of
modus operandi. Now there's another possibilitytoo. Is it possible that there's something
(25:47):
endemic about the Latton area that makesit easier for someone if they just want
to dump a body, that theywill just do it. And then maybe
they're mimicking some other you know,like I'm sure gotten the news the first
couple of times it came out,you know, that a woman was found
nude and she had committed suicide oroverdose or whatever. I'm sure that had
to have gotten into the local um, you know, thought processes, and
(26:12):
maybe it's there's something about Lott andthat just makes it easier for this dude.
Now, I don't tend to thinkthat's the case, but it is
a possibility. But also, youknow, like we talked about earlier,
and Ted Bundy again is a greatexample. You know, if this person
is intelligent, is reading things,they're going to change their their modus operandi
up to make it look like it'ssomeone else, and that would might include
(26:36):
him, could should or could includetargeting different types of people i e.
Not prostitutes, maybe just people whomight just happen to be at a truck
stop or you know, maybe they'reinto other you know, maybe they're into
drugs or something else that would beyou know, that would help you know,
the killer, maybe lure them intosome type of situation. But Jen,
(26:56):
I don't know what do you thinkabout that? Yeah? Agree?
I mean the girls mostly disappeared fromthe Lawton area, correct justin and also
found around that area, So,like George said, it is clearly somebody
that knows that area really well.And I, like we discussed on a
previous episode, I guarantee when yougo there in person to the disposal sites,
(27:18):
like they're going to talk to youand you're gonna probably get a lot
more insight in terms of you know, possibly how remote it is, how
much local knowledge do you need tofind this location, how suitable disposal site
is it, Like how long willit probably take for a body to be
discovered? And so on and soon. But to me, it sounds
like someone with a lot of prettyintimate local knowledge. So and then that
(27:41):
tells us either they live in thelocal area, or they visit it frequently,
or they visited it frequently in thepast, maybe they have family there,
but clearly they've got some of thatknowledge that like, you know,
if any of the three of usdrove in there right now, we wouldn't
have any of it. And don'tforget, you know, solve these murders
are occurring before Google maps and GPSand all that stuff. Again, this
(28:06):
is somebody with that intimate knowledge asa local area that knows it because you're
not just gonna, you know,go to a truck stop and also buy
a map while you're there and finda suitable discobal spot like they already know
the spots, is what it's tellingme. And again I'm so curious to
find out about like access points tosome of these disclos spots and what type
of vehicle can get back there.But to me, some of them,
(28:27):
it's already very clear you're not gettinglike a huge semitruck No, No,
most of them are just narrow,narrow back roads. A lot of gravel.
So that's why originally we were Imean, obviously we still hold all
possibilities open, but that's what wewere originally thinking. That's what our lle
(28:47):
contact down there and told us too. They were like, there's there has
to be some kind of personal vehicleinvolved because you're not getting to semi truck
down those roads exactly. And againlike with the girl found on the on
ramp to an interstate, I mean, that's there's people going on and off
an interstate all the time. Granted, my guests would be that her body
was placed there in the middle ofthe night. I don't know what time
(29:11):
of day she was discovered, buteven so, I mean, it's just
so risky, like if you're ina huge semi truck and then where's the
body again, going back to that, as he hoisted the body into the
front cab or is it in theback. Either way, I mean that's
difficult to deal with. So youknow, again there's got to be a
personal vehicle involved where you can justpull over, open the back gate of
(29:32):
an suv or something and remove thebody. I just don't see this being
a truck driver. Do you guyshave any other thoughts on this before we
go. There was one of thething I wanted to bring up, the
two notes that were found. Yes, I'm glad that you I'm glad that
you mentioned those. Do you haveI forget I didn't type up the text
the actual text of the notes.Do you happen to have that handy?
(29:56):
They are basically, if you don'tdo something about these horrors, preacher,
I'm going to or something to thateffect. It was, and basically the
preacher took that as a threat becauseit's super it's super weird because he found
the notes on the day that CaseyJoe Pipestem was found, and he was
(30:18):
one of the last people to seeher, like two days before that as
well, and they were found atthe church. What he does is he
converted a horse trailer into a littlechapel. Yeah, so he was going
to truck stops and basically preaching andtrying to warn these girls about the dangers
of you know, their lifestyle andthe dangers that hey, like, there's
(30:40):
somebody out here if you haven't beenpaying attention the last four years, and
somebody's out here doing this, Andthat's basically where where that came from.
But when he found these notes,they're referred to as the Hay Minister notes,
and they were stuffed inside his chapeldoor, and they found them the
day that, like I said,Casey's body was found. So one of
(31:07):
them was dated on January thirty first, which is the day that Casey Joe
was found and she was taken fromthe truck stop that these notes were found
at, which would be in OklahomaCity, and her body was found in
Texas. And one note they don'thave all the text, but it's basically
a note referring to parking lots sinand then the other note says, hey,
(31:30):
minister, you need to get busyfor Jesus and clear the horrors out
of here. And it was signedwarning, and that one was actually dated
on the day that Casey was foundin Texas. I mean me personally,
I don't think they're related. Again, why would the killer, So the
killer is succeeding at getting away atthese crimes, why are they going to
(31:52):
put or all two pieces of evidenceout there that could very well be linked
right back to them, whether it'sthrough handwriting, fingerprints, whatever. I
just don't see why the person wouldgo out of their way to put those
two pieces of evidence out there andnot to mention like, okay, you're
(32:12):
so it was done at a truckstop. I know that this was twenty
plus years ago, but back thensome did have cameras, so you may
have been captured on camera number two. If the killer number two, I
was going to say, actually,like the notes could have like blown away,
they got lost. The minister maybenever even found them. So if
the killer really wants to send amessage, they're going to send a note
(32:35):
to law enforcement or the media.I mean, we've seen that happen before,
and that will ensure that their messageis being heard loud and clear,
like we saw with the UNI bomber. You know, he demanded that his
manifesto be published, and he gotit published. You know, Zodiac,
all of those a lot of thoseletters were made public. I just I
can't see any motive behind writing thesetwo notes and putting them on the preachers
(33:00):
traveling trailer, not even knowing ifthey're going to be found and what's going
to happen with them, And Ijust it just seemed risky. What did
you think about that, George whenyou read it? I concur with you
one hundred percent. I mean,again, with lack of knowledge of the
case file, anything's possible. Butlike you said, if the person is
(33:22):
compelled to make a statement and theywant people to hear the statement, they're
not going to stop making statements untilthey get caught. Like you brought up
Zodiac, I mean that guy wassending messages for your BTK, the Buying
torture kill serial killer. He literallygot caught because no one was paying attention
to him, and he decided tosend another message years and years after as
(33:44):
murder and because he got off onthat aspect of it. This killer seems
to want to bring as little attentionas possible to himself other than these two
notes. So I would think unlessthe person died or got caught for another
crime, that if this was anacceleration, because I think that is possible
(34:05):
too. You know that you youknow, you've been doing this for a
while and now maybe you want somerecognition for what's going on, and so
maybe you're accelerating your process. Andthen maybe they got caught or put in
jail for some other crime that couldhave stopped him. But I'm like you,
even if they were in jail,I think they would have found some
way to try to get messages out, So I don't know, it's interesting,
(34:28):
I'll tell you that. I mean, but I also wonder if somebody's
just screwing with him, you know, just in a general sense, you
know what I mean, because theyknow he's a preacher, and you know,
maybe he's just some idiot who wantedto, you know, just mess
with a preacher, you know,who was trying to do good in the
world. Very true. Yeah,all right, well, I suppose before
we sign off, please give hereverybody again your podcasts and where they can
(34:53):
link up with you or any ofthe cases you're working on or books and
whatever the case might be. Georgiana'scohok Andrew Diamonds State Murder Board. Check
it out. They've done some greatepisodes, Like geor said's both on single
episodes on a single on a particularcase, but then they've got multiple episodes
on cases that me and Georgia workwith some really great raw interviews with some
(35:15):
of the people that were really closeto the victim. And then we're also
on Break the Case, which hasseason one and two out now, And
you can follow us on Twitter,Facebook and if you want to help us
on our current investigation into Debbie Williamson'smurder. Please join our Facebook group which
is titled Unfalls Murder of Debracu Williamson, and we would really love to have
(35:37):
as many members as possible. We'vegot some really great brainstorming and discussion going
on right now in that group,So the more people that want to join
in and help us analyze better.Oh and just in a fun fact,
so Doug who was married to Debbie, I just got done writing about a
letter that she wrote him and inthe letter she talks about him being in
(35:59):
lot in Oklahoma for training. Soyeah, I forgot that. Yeah,
huh, yeah, I wrote aboutit yesterday. I mean, and it's
oh man, yeah, I justthought, wow, everything, Yeah,
everything keeps coming back around. Yeah. Oh that is interesting. Yeah.
(36:20):
And you can always message us throughFacebook or whatnot with questions and we're always
happy to respond and lately too.And we're also we also are the moderators
for the Cold Case Club through CrimeHq, which is a partner of Crime
Con. So yeah, you canjoin Prime HQ if you want. There's
(36:42):
a small phenominal see but you canbe part of our Cold Case Club there
and CS live every Tuesday evening withdifferent experts and people connected to Debbie's case.
Yeah, and you guys will bea crime con so people can actually
meet you there as well. Right, yep, we'll be on podcast row
and we're supposed to do a presentation, so be lots of opportunity to meet
people who have followed our work andanybody that wants to come say hi,
(37:06):
we'd love to meet you. Awesome. Well again, thank you too so
much for taking the time out ona Sunday, especially somebody's on vacation.
Still popped on the phone. Callmy brain in case you guys have figured
this out, is really never onvacation. I'm still constantly thinking about cases.
So this is a great forgoing vacation. It's a waste of time vacation
(37:30):
time for me. I just don'tego any all right, well, thank
you too again. Absolutely. Ohthe pleasure is all mine. Thank you,
Jess. I appreciate it. Oh, no problem. I will talk
to you guys later. Okay,take care here, all right, you
two, all right. If youlike to get a hold of the Sweetie
Ana project involving these cases or theseason before this one season one, you
(37:54):
can find me on Facebook the SweetieAnna Project. We have a page.
You can also find me on Instagramat Sweetie in a Project, or you
can just email me Sweetie on aProject at gmail dot com. You can
also choose to remain anonymous if youhave any tips, want to be interviewed,
(38:14):
have any information on these cases orpeople involved. Until next time,
stay safe out there,
This is a true story, butthe opinions of people interviewed or talk to
you are just that opinions, notfacts unless stated otherwise. Opinions stated by
witnesses are not to be seen asthe opinions of the Swedie AA project or
anyone working for the podcast, andthe credibility of those opinions is to be
determined by the listener. Everyone haspresumed innocent until proven otherwise in a court
(00:24):
of law. In this episode,we have interviews with George Jared and Jen
Boo Colts to discuss the profile ofthe person who might be suspected of committing
(00:49):
these murders. George Jared is thehost of Diamond State murder Board podcast.
He's also an investigative reporter along withbeing a true crime author. Jen Booklets
also hosts a podcast called Break theCase where George Jared joins her. She
also teaches forensics and criminal justice atAmerican Military University. Along with myself,
(01:15):
George and Jen are members of theCase Breakers. So we have a great
conversation coming for you. We're goingto talk about the profile that was done
for the Oklahoman. We're also goingto talk about a lot of other stuff
involving these cases. So here ismy interview with George Jared and Jen Boucolts.
(01:46):
Welcome to swede Anna Project. Wedo have some special guests on with
us today. Christina was unable tojoin us, but George and Jen she
wanted to say thank you for comingon and she is sorry that she could
not make it. But let's justkind of get started with this. I'm
joined by George Jared and Jen Vukolts. George, would you like to introduce
(02:08):
yourself and tell people who you areand about your podcast? Sure? Justin.
My name is George Jared. I'man investigative reporter and a true crime
author. I also host a truecrime podcast called Diamond State Murder Board.
We concentrade on about it. It'sa type of podcast where we do about
half and half we do cases outof Arkansas, you know, some of
(02:30):
the higher profile cases out of thisstate. But then we also do we
do episodes on cases out of statealmost exclusively. We do cases that I
have some connection to that I've eitherwritten about or talked about nationally, and
that's pretty much what I do.I also write a lot about politics and
business on the for Talk Business andpolitics. It's a media company based on
(02:53):
Little Rock, Arkansas. Awesome,how about you, Jen Well George,
and you're my co host on Breakthe Case. And I as soon as
I said that, I was like, wait a minute, forgetting one major
thing. My name's Jim Bookcls andI teach forensics and criminal justice at American
Military University and I'm an Army veteranand private investigator and recently became podcast host
(03:17):
for podcast at AMU produces and doesa great job on. It's called Break
the Case. And we did thingsin backwards order, but we released season
two first, which was on themurder of Debrah Sue Williamson, and that's
the case that me and Georgia currentlyinvestigating basically our sole investigative focus at the
moment. And then we just droppedseason one again, I know it's backwards
(03:42):
order. So yeah, we rebrandedthe podcast episodes we've done on the Rebecca
Gold case the season one since theywere actually recorded a year to two years
ago, and we're in the processof making some new episodes on Rebecca's case
as well as Debbie's. So andthen all three of us are volunteer investigator
members for the Case Breakers, whichhas been in the news a lot lately
(04:06):
for the Zodiac case stuff. Yeah, I wanted to have you guys on,
as you know, to kind ofgo over what you guys thought about
the profile, and I sent yousome of the information about when all those
law enforcement agencies got together. Honestly, it's one of the very few times
I think law enforcement agencies at thattime involving this case actually got together and
(04:30):
traded information and traded autopsy photos andcrime scene photos. And even in that
article they do state that they haveevidence that they have not released to the
public yet, which is probably theevidence that connects a lot of the cases
together. So if you guys would, I'm going to go over the profile
real quick, because I really amcurious to hear your guys's thoughts on this.
(04:54):
So in two thousand and four,a Dean Wideman, he was at
the time a Texas based criminal profiler. He was a consulting forensic scientist
as well, and he was avery highly respected guy, and the Oklahoman
actually reached out to him to doa profile on these murders. And it's
like me and you have talked offrecord, all three of us actually that
(05:16):
the police had always said they weregoing to get a profile and kind of
dig into it deeper, but theynever really did, so the Oklahoman took
it upon themselves to do it.So here's the vague and simple profile that
we got. The killer is awhite male in his late twenties early forties.
(05:39):
Wideman said. They generally stay withinthe same race as the victims.
You can't really at this point saydefinitively that he isn't black or Hispanic,
but the educated guest as he's Caucasian. Because of the evolutionary process involved,
We're clearly not dealing with a teenager. I would say late twenties at the
youngest. The killer has a limitededucation, but isn't stupid. He's taking
(06:02):
anything that has any forensic value.These guys commonly do know about forensics.
They read the textbooks or novels ornonfiction paperbacks. Most of these serial killers
are intelligent. And lastly, thekiller probably does not have a criminal record.
Normally, they fit in society,they work, they do a good
job. They look like everyone else, but might have some small infraction.
(06:27):
But I don't get a feeling hehas an extensive record. Usually those that
have a violent history. Are theones who just go crazy on the victims
with post mortem mutilation. They'll stranglethem and then butcher them. This guy
doesn't seem to be doing that.The killer's motivation, in part, is
to rid the world of prostitutes.The victim has to fit their role in
(06:49):
the mind of this guy. Ithink, given the information we have,
the victim profile for him is prostitutes. It's a cleansing of society. It
doesn't matter what you look like.If you are a prostitute, you're a
victim. And that was read toStreet from the Oaklahoman, and like I
said, it was Kidman was quotedin that. So, I mean,
(07:12):
we've tossed this idea around about thereligious factor, and we talked about it
a little bit on our last episode. But what do you guys think about
that profile and do you agree withit? It's hard to agree or disagree
at the profile just for the simplefact that it's too broad. Honestly,
yeah, there's too many people.The age range is so vast. And
even when he says, you know, I agree with them that serial killers
(07:36):
tend to stay within their own racebecause they are culturally aware, and that's
just a fact. Caucasian people tendto have the same habits. Black people
tend to have the same habits,cultural habits, you know, Asian people,
Hispanic, whatever. So I agreewith him on that. As far
as the profile, I wish itcould have been a little It maybe been
(08:00):
because of a lack of information,because it's really hard to develop a profile
like this. If you don't haveaccess to what the police have access to,
to be honest, and so you'renot cooperating with him, then he
can't come up with a more accurateprofile. I do think it's interesting that,
you know, just looking at allthe cases that have in the Latton
area and some of the ancillary casesthat were connected on I forty, getting
(08:24):
into a broader perspective, I thinkthat it's very possible that all those cases
are connected. Because I don't drivingI forty is I've driven it many times.
It's not It wouldn't be an impossiblething to do. And like you
said, justin these guys they studyEd Bundy was the first serial killer who
said that he would intentionally do things. He would change his modus operandi intentionally
(08:48):
to throw investigators off. He wouldintroduce evidence to a crime scene just to
throw them off. And so justby the simple fact that there are differences
in some of these cases potentially andwe don't know because the police aren't saying
I don't think that that's that thatautomatically should we should assume that it's not
one killer or a pair of killerspossibly may be working in concert with each
(09:11):
other. I think it's clear thatthe person who killed at least some of
these girls is very familiar with thelat In area. And I also think
that the person is taking it mayhave And this is a problem that we
have in general, is this personis taking advantage of a system that is
flawed. And what I mean byis our law enforcement system, because you've
(09:33):
got counties and cities and municipalities thatall have different jurisdictions, and so you
have different law enforcement agencies and there'sno requirement that they work together. And
in fact, it's in my experience, most law enforcement agencies are the antithesis
of that. They don't want towork with other agencies. It's for and
there's a lot of reasons. That'sa power thing, it's there's all sorts
(09:54):
of different stuff. But just onthe face of it, I probably hope
we can find some maybe better informationto develop this profile better. Yeah,
and I agree with some parts ofthis profile, and I definitely disagree with
others, and we can get intothat. But I do agree with the
same that George said, like thekiller probably is Caucasian. It's just harder
(10:16):
to lure victims or come up witha ruse to get victims to come your
way if you're a different ethnicity thanthey are, plain and simple, And
so I do agree that the killeris probably a white male. And you
know the Oklahoman said in his latetwenties to early forties, Well, that
was in two thousand and four thatthey did this profile. So keep in
(10:37):
mind that now, and I agreewith that. I would actually narrow it
down to probably thirties to forties.It seems there's more sophistication in some of
this to me than somebody in theirtwenties would be able to accomplish. But
it's not impossible. But keep inmind now that person has aged, you
know, fifteen twenty years from whenthis profile was developed. The profeller said,
(11:00):
the killer has limited educations, butthen is taking things of forensic value
from the scene. And I don'tthink that those two things necessarily equate.
You can be extremely smart and haveno street smarts and vice versa, as
we know. But keep in mind, when these murders are happening, our
forensic technology is still not highly developed. So I don't tend to agree that
(11:24):
the person is disrobing the victims completelyjust because they're taking what we call forensic
countermeasures. I think there's more toit, and I think that that's part
of the sexual component behind the motive, because as we all know, like
it's really difficult to disrobe a deadbody. You've got to have a strong
motive or compulsion to do that.And so of course that leads me to
(11:46):
why, Well, back when thesemurders were committed, there's no touch DNA
technology or anything like that. Now, if the killers stay ejaculated onto the
victim's clothing at that point in time, yet that could help law enforcement developed
a DNA profile. But then heejaculates stay onto the victims genes or underwear.
(12:07):
Why are you taking all of theirclothing? You know, I don't.
I don't know that I agree withthis whole taking of the clothing and
other evidence just because it might haveforensic value. I think there may be
something else to it. Yeah,And you know another thing, you know,
another aspect of the case of thesecases that I think is very interesting
is the fact that these that thesewomen were found you know, nude,
(12:31):
and they weren't, and they werefound in you know, rural places in
and around the lot in the area. I don't understand how in the world
anybody could have thought that there werejust random women who were just taking all
their clothes off and going and odeingor doing whatever. However, the coroner
ruled that they had died. Youknow, if you found an outlier case
(12:54):
like that. And I even dida little research on things I've written about
in the past, I couldn't finda single case where I had and I've
written about many suicides in the past. I couldn't find a single case where
somebody just got naked and went outof the woods and took a bunch of
pills and died. So, whenI'm not saying it can't happen, it
probably can, and isolate it,and I'm sure it has. But to
(13:16):
have this many in one area ofOklahoma is bizarre. I mean, number
one, and it should alarm bellshould have been going off well before all
this other stuff started to creep intothe newspapers and stuff like that. You
know, with the population of onehundred thousand people and you know, within
that short span, and then youhave the two year break and on top
(13:39):
of that, and supposedly when thedeaths stopped, that's kind of when they
started rotating towards I should say,moving towards Oklahoma City. And we pointed
out the Casey Joe Pipe Stem caseon the last episode where she was a
young prostitute sex worker from Oklahoma Cityand she wound up in Grapevine, Texas.
(14:03):
Her death was a little bit moreviolent than the other girls, though
she was actually strangled. She wasonly missing for a couple of days when
her body was found, but shewas beaten, strangled, and raped.
But they still connected her case becauseof evidence that has not been released to
the public yet. So it alwaysand again she was also stripped nude,
(14:24):
and it's just that's kind of whyI wanted your guys's thoughts and opinion on
this was because there's just so muchhere. There's supposedly five six more cases
that are connected to this throughout otherstates, Arkansas being one of them.
In Texas and Mississippi as well,and they did tie one of the cases
(14:46):
to John Robert Williams, who isa former truck driver who was in prison
for the death of Miss Hyman,and he admitted to a lot of the
murders, but he couldn't be tiedany of them. So we don't know
if he was just kind of braggingor if he actually isn't evolved or not.
(15:07):
And I mean he's named names beforeof other people. He has actually
said that there's a group of truckdrivers who are doing this. Basically,
Well, that's something I wanted toaddress, is the truck driver theory,
because like, if we break itdown and think about it critically, I
understand that geographically it would make sensefor like a long haul trucker to maybe
(15:31):
committing these crimes. Okay, sothe girls supposedly frequented truck stops, But
think about what goes into if youso you can pick up a sex worker
to truck stop, Fine, shewillingly gets in your truck and then you
go down the road and whatever happenshappens and she ends up killed. You
have a dead body to deal with, and this giant truck, where are
(15:52):
you putting the body in this gianttruck. It is not easy to hoist
a dead body anywhere. Where areyou hiding the body while you find a
place to both of it? Notto mention Mike, one of them it
was Margaret Gardner, I read wasfound on an on ramp to I forty
and on ramp. I mean,how likely is it for you to be
able to pull your huge truck overonto the side of an on ramp and
(16:15):
unload a dead body there without anybodynoticing. To me, the chance of
that is not high. I'm notsaying it's impossible. I don't think it's
plausible. So there's several things tome that say, I just don't feel
it's a truck driver. And thenthere's other bodies that were found in remote
areas, So how are they gettingthe bodies to those spots in a semi
truck? Probably not so if youthink about the actual logistics of unfortunately dealing
(16:41):
with this dead body in the aftermathof murdering the person, it doesn't make
sense for me to be a truckdriver, at least not on like a
big semi truck. And I justwant to bring up that, like a
lot of people frequent truck stops fordifferent reasons. I know, like my
husband and I have a diesel ram, so we often look for trucks because
we can get diesel for cheaper,and then they usually have like a cafe
(17:03):
or like a fast food type placewhere we can get somebod to eat.
At the same time, we seekout truck stops. If someone's calling a
camper or a trailer, we dothat too, But they also seek out
truck stops because there's more space,like to pull up to the pump,
to turn around the park, moremore than like a regular gas station.
So I think we need to lookoutside the box a little more than just
(17:26):
the truck driver theory and think aboutwho else would be frequenting truck stops and
the interstate. I think there's severalother segments of a population that would fall
into that category. I don't knowwhat you think of that, George,
Yeah, I totally agree, onehundred I literally, that was a point
I was going to make today,was that the person maybe it may have
(17:49):
some traits that we would associate witha truck driver, you know, being
at truck stops, you know,being on the interstate highway system, and
these bodies jumped in various places.But that does not mean that they are
a trucker. It just means thatthey go to truck stops. Because,
let's face it, I don't thinkif you'd asked any of the three of
us ten years ago, hey,do prostitutes hang out at truck stops,
(18:11):
we would all say yes, justlike prostitutes hang out in casinos, you
know, or they hang out incertain on certain streets in certain towns like
in Lawton, and so we allwe all know these things. So somebody
who's praying on women, if I'mgonna if I want to go and kill
prostitutes, I'm going to go toplaces like that. So I agree one
(18:32):
hundred percent. I'm not dismissing thepossibility that's a truck driver. And it
might be someone who has some truckdriving experience, you know, maybe they
were a truck driver for a fewyears, so maybe they know the ins
and outs of some of these townsand some of these places where they frequent.
But yeah, I most definitely Iwouldn't just focus in on truck drivers
(18:52):
for sure. Yeah. One otherthing about truck stops is there's a lot
more vehicles frequentcying a truck stop andin a day than there is in like
a red light district of a citywhere you would pick up a sex worker.
My understanding is, like the sexworker industry at truck stops, I
know that they communicate with each other, the workers and stuff, but I
don't get the feeling that their communicationis as good as those that say,
(19:15):
go to the same street, inthe same neighborhood night in and night out.
The truck stop is just more Idon't know what the right word is,
guys, but anyways, it's moreloosely connected. It's it's not as
close knit of a community for truckworkers as my understanding. And again,
you've got way more vehicle traffic,so if a suspicious vehicle comes through a
(19:36):
truck stop, there's a less chanceof the sex worker population remembering it than
there is in a red light district. Hopefully that makes some sense. Yeah,
definitely. What do you guys thinkabout Wideman kind of putting in the
religious factor there. I think it'spossible if they haven't found any DNA or
anything like that, they haven't foundany semen or anything like that, I
(19:59):
think I would probably give it alittle more credence I don't know. It's
again, it's kind of it's alittle vague, but I think it is
possible, you know, if it'ssome type of vigilante, I would expect
probably more bodies would have piled upby now, to be honest with,
unless something happened to that person.But Jenna, I don't know, what
do you think about that? Yeah, I don't agree with the kill that
(20:22):
the motive being the killer wanting torid the world of prostitutes. To me,
there's clearly a sexual component to thesecrimes, particularly with the women being
left most of them being left nude, like George and I relearned on our
research into Debbie's case, when akiller strips the body of his victim naked,
he's having the last sexual interaction withher, whether there's actually sex going
on or not. He's the lastperson to undress her, and that is
(20:47):
an intimate act. So to me, there's a sexual component behind these which
indicates to me that this killer isgetting some gratification from the murders. And
if you want to be a vigilante, why not go up like drug addicts
or sex offenders, you know,or I mean, there's why go to
all the trouble of luring or hiringa sex worker and then luring them in
(21:07):
your vehicle, strangling them, disrubingthem, then having to go find a
disposal site. There's easier ways torid the world of prostitutes. And I'm
not trying to be you know,a brace of a crafts here, so
forgive me. But yeah, forsure, all of the actions this killer
is going to require so much work. I mean literally, you could get
a long range rightful, like theDC snipers did start shooting prostitutes, if
(21:30):
you want to rid the world ofthem, that would be way easier than
what this killer is going through.So I just I don't tend to agree.
Yeah, And another thing is therisk. You know, when we
talk about this, you and Italk about this all the time. Every
action and when somebody commits a murder, everything is as it's a risk benefit
(21:52):
ratio. And when you're moving abody around taking the clothes off, I
mean, even like you said,the act of pull it, taking the
clothes off is really hard when theperson is dead, and it takes the
time, and you're potentially even ifyou're savvy about you know, early two
thousands forensics, you know DNA andstuff like that. There's still the potential
to leave a hair that you can'taccount for. There's potential, and if
(22:15):
there's been many victims, then almostcertainly the law of averages would say you
have left some of that genetic materialbehind. My suspicion, justin is that
in some of these earlier cases,especially when they thought it was you know,
a prostitute overdosing or committing suicide,my suspicion is that they didn't even
check for that type of evidence,that they didn't even look for the hairs
(22:38):
or look for the seamen. Sosome of these women may vary. And
of course they're obviously they're in thesex worker trade, so if they do,
if there are signs that they hadrecently had sexual activity, they may
not even be taking you know,samples or doing a rape kit because they
think it's just a woman who's overdosedor committed suicide and she's it's such a
(23:00):
horrifying thing. But in our societywe just devalue people who do that type
of work. We've seen it timeand time again with serial killers, where
you know, prostitution and sex workersare just targeted because they're easier targets it's
just unfortunate. They're used to gettingin vehicles with strangers that they don't know,
you know, it's how they're makinga living, and so a killer
(23:22):
knows that. You know, It'sa much easier way to abduct a victim
than what like Ted Bunny would do, which is he enjoyed obviously, like
creating a ruse and like actually talkingto the woman and whatnot. But with
sex workers, it's just a loteasier to get them into your car.
And I think that's what's gone onhere is that's the only reason that that
(23:42):
population was targeted, because it's easy. I mean, we've seen it like
Gary Ridgeway, the Greenway Killer,Green River killer, excuse me, exactly
the same thing. You know,he's got a red light district and pick
up a sex worker, and unfortunatelythey would become a victim. And they're
also not missed as much. Soif someone's working in prostitution, they're not
(24:03):
going home to their mom and dadevery night. You know, they may
be going home to a boyfriend ora roommate or something. But if they
don't come home for a few nights, it's probably not that unusual. So
that's another reason why it's just aneasy population to target for these guys,
because the women aren't going to bemissed as quickly as someone who you know,
(24:25):
has to go to a ninety fivejob every day or a tenth college
or something like that. Yeah,Jen, And there's another component of that
too, human beings, when wedo something a certain way and we and
we're rewarded for it. If there'sa reward, like if you go to
the gym and you do a certainexercise and your muscles get bigger or you
get your stamina increases, you havea tendency to go and do that same
(24:45):
exercise over and over again, evenafter it's not profiting you anymore. And
so this killer may have just hemay have done this with a prostitute the
first time. It was easy,and so again again he's just going to
go back to that. Well,but I think there may be some evidence,
you know, justin I'm sure we'lltalk about it a little bit,
(25:06):
but there may be some evidence thathe did expand it. If this is
indeed one person who's committing all thesekilling these women, it looks like he
may have expanded to a degree becausesome of them don't fit that profile that
was another thing I was curious aboutyour opinions because some of these people do
not fit that profile. Well,you know we talked about before. Okay,
(25:27):
there's a couple of possibilities, especiallywith the cases in and around Lotton.
Either you have one killer or maybea pair of killers. There may
be more than one who are operatingwith the same in the same realm of
modus operandi. Now there's another possibilitytoo. Is it possible that there's something
(25:47):
endemic about the Latton area that makesit easier for someone if they just want
to dump a body, that theywill just do it. And then maybe
they're mimicking some other you know,like I'm sure gotten the news the first
couple of times it came out,you know, that a woman was found
nude and she had committed suicide oroverdose or whatever. I'm sure that had
to have gotten into the local um, you know, thought processes, and
(26:12):
maybe it's there's something about Lott andthat just makes it easier for this dude.
Now, I don't tend to thinkthat's the case, but it is
a possibility. But also, youknow, like we talked about earlier,
and Ted Bundy again is a greatexample. You know, if this person
is intelligent, is reading things,they're going to change their their modus operandi
up to make it look like it'ssomeone else, and that would might include
(26:36):
him, could should or could includetargeting different types of people i e.
Not prostitutes, maybe just people whomight just happen to be at a truck
stop or you know, maybe they'reinto other you know, maybe they're into
drugs or something else that would beyou know, that would help you know,
the killer, maybe lure them intosome type of situation. But Jen,
(26:56):
I don't know what do you thinkabout that? Yeah? Agree?
I mean the girls mostly disappeared fromthe Lawton area, correct justin and also
found around that area, So,like George said, it is clearly somebody
that knows that area really well.And I, like we discussed on a
previous episode, I guarantee when yougo there in person to the disposal sites,
(27:18):
like they're going to talk to youand you're gonna probably get a lot
more insight in terms of you know, possibly how remote it is, how
much local knowledge do you need tofind this location, how suitable disposal site
is it, Like how long willit probably take for a body to be
discovered? And so on and soon. But to me, it sounds
like someone with a lot of prettyintimate local knowledge. So and then that
(27:41):
tells us either they live in thelocal area, or they visit it frequently,
or they visited it frequently in thepast, maybe they have family there,
but clearly they've got some of thatknowledge that like, you know,
if any of the three of usdrove in there right now, we wouldn't
have any of it. And don'tforget, you know, solve these murders
are occurring before Google maps and GPSand all that stuff. Again, this
(28:06):
is somebody with that intimate knowledge asa local area that knows it because you're
not just gonna, you know,go to a truck stop and also buy
a map while you're there and finda suitable discobal spot like they already know
the spots, is what it's tellingme. And again I'm so curious to
find out about like access points tosome of these disclos spots and what type
of vehicle can get back there.But to me, some of them,
(28:27):
it's already very clear you're not gettinglike a huge semitruck No, No,
most of them are just narrow,narrow back roads. A lot of gravel.
So that's why originally we were Imean, obviously we still hold all
possibilities open, but that's what wewere originally thinking. That's what our lle
(28:47):
contact down there and told us too. They were like, there's there has
to be some kind of personal vehicleinvolved because you're not getting to semi truck
down those roads exactly. And againlike with the girl found on the on
ramp to an interstate, I mean, that's there's people going on and off
an interstate all the time. Granted, my guests would be that her body
was placed there in the middle ofthe night. I don't know what time
(29:11):
of day she was discovered, buteven so, I mean, it's just
so risky, like if you're ina huge semi truck and then where's the
body again, going back to that, as he hoisted the body into the
front cab or is it in theback. Either way, I mean that's
difficult to deal with. So youknow, again there's got to be a
personal vehicle involved where you can justpull over, open the back gate of
(29:32):
an suv or something and remove thebody. I just don't see this being
a truck driver. Do you guyshave any other thoughts on this before we
go. There was one of thething I wanted to bring up, the
two notes that were found. Yes, I'm glad that you I'm glad that
you mentioned those. Do you haveI forget I didn't type up the text
the actual text of the notes.Do you happen to have that handy?
(29:56):
They are basically, if you don'tdo something about these horrors, preacher,
I'm going to or something to thateffect. It was, and basically the
preacher took that as a threat becauseit's super it's super weird because he found
the notes on the day that CaseyJoe Pipestem was found, and he was
(30:18):
one of the last people to seeher, like two days before that as
well, and they were found atthe church. What he does is he
converted a horse trailer into a littlechapel. Yeah, so he was going
to truck stops and basically preaching andtrying to warn these girls about the dangers
of you know, their lifestyle andthe dangers that hey, like, there's
(30:40):
somebody out here if you haven't beenpaying attention the last four years, and
somebody's out here doing this, Andthat's basically where where that came from.
But when he found these notes,they're referred to as the Hay Minister notes,
and they were stuffed inside his chapeldoor, and they found them the
day that, like I said,Casey's body was found. So one of
(31:07):
them was dated on January thirty first, which is the day that Casey Joe
was found and she was taken fromthe truck stop that these notes were found
at, which would be in OklahomaCity, and her body was found in
Texas. And one note they don'thave all the text, but it's basically
a note referring to parking lots sinand then the other note says, hey,
(31:30):
minister, you need to get busyfor Jesus and clear the horrors out
of here. And it was signedwarning, and that one was actually dated
on the day that Casey was foundin Texas. I mean me personally,
I don't think they're related. Again, why would the killer, So the
killer is succeeding at getting away atthese crimes, why are they going to
(31:52):
put or all two pieces of evidenceout there that could very well be linked
right back to them, whether it'sthrough handwriting, fingerprints, whatever. I
just don't see why the person wouldgo out of their way to put those
two pieces of evidence out there andnot to mention like, okay, you're
(32:12):
so it was done at a truckstop. I know that this was twenty
plus years ago, but back thensome did have cameras, so you may
have been captured on camera number two. If the killer number two, I
was going to say, actually,like the notes could have like blown away,
they got lost. The minister maybenever even found them. So if
the killer really wants to send amessage, they're going to send a note
(32:35):
to law enforcement or the media.I mean, we've seen that happen before,
and that will ensure that their messageis being heard loud and clear,
like we saw with the UNI bomber. You know, he demanded that his
manifesto be published, and he gotit published. You know, Zodiac,
all of those a lot of thoseletters were made public. I just I
can't see any motive behind writing thesetwo notes and putting them on the preachers
(33:00):
traveling trailer, not even knowing ifthey're going to be found and what's going
to happen with them, And Ijust it just seemed risky. What did
you think about that, George whenyou read it? I concur with you
one hundred percent. I mean,again, with lack of knowledge of the
case file, anything's possible. Butlike you said, if the person is
(33:22):
compelled to make a statement and theywant people to hear the statement, they're
not going to stop making statements untilthey get caught. Like you brought up
Zodiac, I mean that guy wassending messages for your BTK, the Buying
torture kill serial killer. He literallygot caught because no one was paying attention
to him, and he decided tosend another message years and years after as
(33:44):
murder and because he got off onthat aspect of it. This killer seems
to want to bring as little attentionas possible to himself other than these two
notes. So I would think unlessthe person died or got caught for another
crime, that if this was anacceleration, because I think that is possible
(34:05):
too. You know that you youknow, you've been doing this for a
while and now maybe you want somerecognition for what's going on, and so
maybe you're accelerating your process. Andthen maybe they got caught or put in
jail for some other crime that couldhave stopped him. But I'm like you,
even if they were in jail,I think they would have found some
way to try to get messages out, So I don't know, it's interesting,
(34:28):
I'll tell you that. I mean, but I also wonder if somebody's
just screwing with him, you know, just in a general sense, you
know what I mean, because theyknow he's a preacher, and you know,
maybe he's just some idiot who wantedto, you know, just mess
with a preacher, you know,who was trying to do good in the
world. Very true. Yeah,all right, well, I suppose before
we sign off, please give hereverybody again your podcasts and where they can
(34:53):
link up with you or any ofthe cases you're working on or books and
whatever the case might be. Georgiana'scohok Andrew Diamonds State Murder Board. Check
it out. They've done some greatepisodes, Like geor said's both on single
episodes on a single on a particularcase, but then they've got multiple episodes
on cases that me and Georgia workwith some really great raw interviews with some
(35:15):
of the people that were really closeto the victim. And then we're also
on Break the Case, which hasseason one and two out now, And
you can follow us on Twitter,Facebook and if you want to help us
on our current investigation into Debbie Williamson'smurder. Please join our Facebook group which
is titled Unfalls Murder of Debracu Williamson, and we would really love to have
(35:37):
as many members as possible. We'vegot some really great brainstorming and discussion going
on right now in that group,So the more people that want to join
in and help us analyze better.Oh and just in a fun fact,
so Doug who was married to Debbie, I just got done writing about a
letter that she wrote him and inthe letter she talks about him being in
(35:59):
lot in Oklahoma for training. Soyeah, I forgot that. Yeah,
huh, yeah, I wrote aboutit yesterday. I mean, and it's
oh man, yeah, I justthought, wow, everything, Yeah,
everything keeps coming back around. Yeah. Oh that is interesting. Yeah.
(36:20):
And you can always message us throughFacebook or whatnot with questions and we're always
happy to respond and lately too.And we're also we also are the moderators
for the Cold Case Club through CrimeHq, which is a partner of Crime
Con. So yeah, you canjoin Prime HQ if you want. There's
(36:42):
a small phenominal see but you canbe part of our Cold Case Club there
and CS live every Tuesday evening withdifferent experts and people connected to Debbie's case.
Yeah, and you guys will bea crime con so people can actually
meet you there as well. Right, yep, we'll be on podcast row
and we're supposed to do a presentation, so be lots of opportunity to meet
people who have followed our work andanybody that wants to come say hi,
(37:06):
we'd love to meet you. Awesome. Well again, thank you too so
much for taking the time out ona Sunday, especially somebody's on vacation.
Still popped on the phone. Callmy brain in case you guys have figured
this out, is really never onvacation. I'm still constantly thinking about cases.
So this is a great forgoing vacation. It's a waste of time vacation
(37:30):
time for me. I just don'tego any all right, well, thank
you too again. Absolutely. Ohthe pleasure is all mine. Thank you,
Jess. I appreciate it. Oh, no problem. I will talk
to you guys later. Okay,take care here, all right, you
two, all right. If youlike to get a hold of the Sweetie
Ana project involving these cases or theseason before this one season one, you
(37:54):
can find me on Facebook the SweetieAnna Project. We have a page.
You can also find me on Instagramat Sweetie in a Project, or you
can just email me Sweetie on aProject at gmail dot com. You can
also choose to remain anonymous if youhave any tips, want to be interviewed,
(38:14):
have any information on these cases orpeople involved. Until next time,
stay safe out there,
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