S4 E12 - Spurs Reign at the Palace

Ritch Grove and @leebrown2 discuss Spurs resilient game against Palace, the upcoming Chelsea game and can we REALLY be considered in the mix for the Title?

Episode Transcript

(00:03):
You know, there's no place Iknow if I would, I wouldn't want
to breathe right here. And youknow, in this minute of trying to
bring success to one of the biggestfootball clubs in the world, H,
the basic under the like principles thatyou all want my team to play football
that scares the life out of everyopposition. Mate, that's that's kind of

(00:25):
the end game. H. Welcometo the Bar Side Spurs podcast and today
once again is Rich Grove. Ihear you have a little bit of a
virus. Is that limp sip ortea you've got in your mug there?

(00:45):
Mate? It's weapons grade coffee.Actually, mate, what's what I like
to hear? Ground or instant orwhat are you not fast? It's it's
it's it's espresso with loads of it's. It's lots of espresso with our water
in it to make it go abit further. Yeah, I need I
need the umphoot of them minute.I'm feeling very much like I'm running on

(01:07):
that. You know, the littleorange light is on on my personal fuel
tank. Yeah. Yeah, Idoubt you're very much not the only one
at the moment, because there's alot of things to be going around in
there, so well, let's itbe lightened the mood. Yeah, well,
you and I both know it's thattime of year. I mean you
don't obviously you've escaped, you know, but I still in and around academia.

(01:30):
So you know, they all theyall go away over summer and breed
all these horrible germs and then theyall bring them back and give them to
in October. The bustards man.Yeah, I mean, my my immune
system must be pretty resilient. Butyou know, when you've got because obviously
I was teaching eleven to eighteen yearolds and you've got a you know,

(01:53):
a whole gamut of viruses from wintervomits, vomiting to you know, to
anything and everything. And yeah,so periodically I was up and down.
Yeah. Yeah, it catches you. It catches you. And I think
the trouble is, you know,like you say, because they're so used
to being around it, when youget one, you get a bad one.

(02:15):
That's what I say. Anyway,everybody else calls me a moaning,
sniveling git. But you know,as far as I'm concerned, I think,
no, this is a really badvirus, you Bustard. This isn't
just that awful, You know theones you see on the end when they
squeeze, squeeze a little bit thisthing up your nose and you'll feel loads
better in twenty four hours, andyou think, yeah, yeah, anyway,

(02:36):
there you are. So how didyou get the clap? Then?
Well, I met a lovely Frenchfire ship. A couple of ships passed
in the night. Yeah. Yeah, so we'll get back, We'll get

(02:59):
straight into the into the game stuff. But what I was going to say
is actually, so sort of prefixthe game and just made the best starts
since nineteen sixty one, so thebest start of any Spurs manager since then,
and also the best start of anyPremier League manager. So I just
thought we could maybe. I know, we kind of been sort of shied

(03:22):
away from title talk, but Ijust want to run down a few points
and then give me your honest opinionwhether you think we're we could be maybe
not actually win it, but butcould we be in the shake up.
So in our favor, we gotone game per week, We got an

(03:43):
incredible manager who seems to understand manmanagement like no other manager I can think
of. We got Benson Kirk comingback, We got players talking about them
believing in something special is happening atthe club and they don't want to be
that Spurs players achieved nothing. Wegot the likelihood that will invest well in

(04:04):
January. We kind of seem tohave identified key positions. We have a
young group, but they seem notonly very united, but they're also mature,
way beyond their years. The pressureis off. I think actually,
since we've sold Kine, I thinkthat, you know, with our best
player ever going that perhaps no oneexpects us to be truly in that mix.

(04:28):
That psychologically I think may have something. And of course then you've got
Andrew's relationship to you know, tothe fan base, to the media and
to everyone. It just kind offeels like we're in a good place.
Do you honestly feel that we couldbe in the shakeup or do you feel
that's probably a bit premature. Ithink we've got to take ourselves seriously,

(04:50):
haven't we have? Always Nobody elseis going to I you know, as
much as we had a bit offun telling you off attempting FA the other
day, you know, I Ithink you know, I don't think we're
serious title contenders, largely because Idon't think and I think you mentioned this,

(05:11):
you know, in our chat theother day. One or two injuries
really changes that first team quite significantly, doesn't know, I mean in one
or two key areas, Like Imean, if we lost James Madison to
a hamstring injury or something for sixor eight weeks, you know, that
whole season in that. But ifwe can get through to January and then
reinforce in those key areas, Ithink we'll be you know, we'll be

(05:33):
in a good position on that onthat front, because I think they'll have
identified it seems like we're looking atsomeone like Nelson who'd be a really solid
backup. They look like we're lookingat him and as who could play in
a couple of positions up front.And you know, and and I think
if we invest wisely in with playersthat we've got coming back at the moment,

(05:53):
and personally, you know, asmuch as I've been a hater of
Hoiberg, I mean a bit harshlyto be honest, but I think I
think I would still keep him.And I'm not sure who's going to just
hit the ground running coming in likehe would, so I probably keep him
to the sun because he seems tobe a good, a good fit just
to kind of as the game iskind of like drawing to a close,

(06:14):
you just want to sort of kindof shore things up. So yeah,
I don't know. I mean,you know, probably what you're saying is
right, But I do think thatsome of those positions where we're very nervous
about if we lost players there,if we if we can address that in
January and we're okay to then thenwe you know, you know, we
we might be in the mix.I think we could could be. I

(06:38):
think the other thing is I waslistening to the radio commentary for the Manchester
derby at the weekend and they areobviously talking about the two different positions that
both of those clubs are in,and it struck me as a really interesting
sort of analogy, because you know, Manchester City have got all of the
money in the world, but they'vealso got this really, really good infrastruct

(07:00):
and they've also got this really reallyestablished hierarchy within the club. It's not
just Guardiola and the players, youknow, there's the coaching staff and all
the constant stream of recruitment and whereverthey have a gap they can fit it.
And United is very much the oppositein that there are fucking shambles.

(07:20):
And actually I think you know,if you think about that, you know,
the club's existing on a continuing betweenthose two things. We've moved from
one end of that closer to theother, haven't we, because we have
been and you know, Levis hasappointed a couple of key positions, not

(07:41):
just the manager and the coaching staff, but into recruitment and into sort of
director of football type roles whatever itis that they're calling them these days,
and you wonder whether or not Actuallythat's that's equally important, but perhaps perhaps
less often spoken about is the ourlikelihood of buring the squad in January has

(08:01):
improved because we've got better people actuallydoing that business now. Yeah, and
also there is there seems to bea whole lot more structure to the club
that has been missing for a fewyears because we've had people like Jose and
Conte that are sort of fly bynights and they come in and leave everything
like a smoking wasteland when they go. You know, and I think that

(08:22):
I think that you like agreeing withwhat you're saying, but I think that
one's bolting onto that as well,because I think that's quite an important component
to our chance of success. Itmight think of of back to you know,
my happiest time as a Spurs fanwas under Martin yol and key to
key to the fun of all ofthat, and key to the success that

(08:43):
they had, you know, becausewe came from nowhere to be in outside
the Champions League on goal difference theyear before he sacked in because of Lasagna
gate or one point or whatever itwas. But key to that sort of
that early transition is the fact thatwe had people like Frank Harnison and then
and then Damien and Caimole in theredoing that work, and all of that's

(09:07):
been missing, you know. UnderPotch we had Paul Mitchell and then he
went and then it all sort offell apart, and then whatever has happened
in the last five years has happenedin the last five years. But now
it appears that they've plugged those gaps, and you think, yeah, okay,
so we might start seeing some decentplayers come through again now, you
know. And I think that's that'salmost as exciting as everything else, because

(09:28):
I'm a very boring man and Iget excited. No, I agree,
and I think it's very you know, it would be wrong, I think
to dismiss all of what you justsaid there, like previous managers have,
I mean, especially you know ConteMourinho didn't seem to really give the stuff
about the rest of the club.But this manager seems to have kind of

(09:50):
got understand that. You know,it's not it's not just one aspect.
The whole machine has to to work, and that that includes, you know,
everything from what you were saying interms of the personnel that are close
to the first team recruitment, butalso we seem to be joined up in
other areas where we're you know,he understands who all the players are at

(10:11):
the club, including all the youthteam players, and that so that that
sort of cohesion makes the organization feellike it's pulling in the same direction.
And I don't think you can underestimatethe influence of you know that, that
kind of that kind of feeling whereeveryone feels like they belong to something.
You know. You you see theyouth team players often tweeting out messages,

(10:35):
don't you about you know, howsuccessful they're being, and that that that
then has I suppose a cultural effect. You know, we are you know,
we're getting probably a bit of ahead ourselves now thinking about the future.
But one of the things, thereasons why apparently this under twenty one
team is doing so well is becausesome of the players from the under eighteen
team have come in with that sortof winning culture and brought it to the

(10:58):
under twenty ones. You project forward, You're going to bring that forward into
the first team if some of thosemake it in there. But that's what
you're looking for, isn't it.That sense of, you know, how
we all play, how we're allvalued, how we'll fit in and and
of course then if that is theculture, then players start to feel it.
And I think, you know,looking at the you know, just

(11:22):
just from sort of the eye test, looking at the way the players interact
with each other, you know,you get to see it sense that we're
all pulling in the same direction.Like just when we'll come on to him
a bit later, but when justbriefly, when Bentenkrek came on again,
Sun he did that thing, wejust pushed him towards the crowd, and
yeah, it'd only been on fora few minutes, but yeah, this
is a real sense that they wereso happy for him. Yeah, yeah,

(11:48):
I mean Obviously, we don't know, you know, unless you're one
of these people that watch his trainingand spends all of your life around around
them all. We don't know whatthe dynamics are between the players who are
the popular ones in the squad andwho aren't. But you do get the
impression that Benton curR is very important, don't you. Actually that's a massive,

(12:11):
a massive booster and a really goodtime as well, because you know,
one of the criticisms that has beenleveled at so far is that we
haven't played anybody of note yet,you know, and we're coming into and
I mean it's bollocks of course,because we've played We've played Arsenal, Liverpool
and Man United and although Man Unitedshambles, they're still Man United. But

(12:31):
you know, we're coming into awe're coming into a clutch of pictures now
where we've got I think we've gotChelsea next. Wolves are not really any
pushover, you know. We wewe saw them sort of dig in at
the weekend and get something against Newcastleand you know, we've got Manchester City

(12:52):
and they're not too distant future.We've got west Ham who you know love
to come with their chain and whateverbullshit. You know, we're coming into
a clutch of fixtures which are goingto be quite pivotal as a litmus test,
and I think him coming back andthat obvious delight in the first team
that he's there, I think that'sreally really key, you know, really

(13:16):
good timing. I mean, itmay be that they're you know, that
they're too young at the moment whenwe're just a little bit off it,
but I do I do feel thatwe will maybe be quite close, only
because when you look at the leagueat the moment, Man you don't look
like we just discussed, don't lookanything. They fall and well away you've

(13:37):
got Chelsea who are nowhere near iteither. I mean they might they play
some decent football, but they justlook that they're not the complete package yet.
So really you've got Liverpool who probablyyou know, will be in the
shakeup. Arsenal will probably be inthe shakeup. Man City of course will,
but I don't get the impression ofMan City are the team they were
last season, and so then it'syou know, I would include us in

(14:01):
there, and you just don't knowover the course of the season, bearing
in mind we only have one gamea week, how that may well benefit
us. You know, there's anargument of course that there those those players
we've got a young and inexperience,but also they're not carrying any legacy or
baggage that you know of this kindof spursy doctor Tottenham, you know,
albatross if you like, round theirnext Yeah, yeah, totally. I

(14:24):
mean, and I think I thinkthat the important of that can't be understated.
Yeah, they're they're they're young enough, but they're ready, you know,
they're they're they're not they're not ayouth team. There. There there
are a group of players that,like you say, of they've come to
all the roast, you know,to to coin a frase and and I
think I think that's that's that's wonderful. We've got such a mix of uh

(14:50):
of of of you know, likeyou've just said, players that that are
without Tottenham baggage. And I dothink, you know, although we were
at some point in the season Ruenot having his ability to dig out a
goal from the midst of a terribleperformance, Although we were, you know,
I think actually so far we're alla bit sort of Harry who And

(15:16):
it's like the team are playing likethat because I've seen for a long time
that we were so overreliant on HarryKane. Everything came through him. Everything
was if Cain had a bad day, we had a bad day. If
Kine was injured, we looked lost. If Cain you know, whatever,
whatever it was. You know,on the flip side of that, if

(15:37):
Kane was knocking him in, welooked like we could beat anybody. But
without him, it kind of showedup how reliant we were. And I
think without that, without like youcall it an albatross, I think at
times it is. I think ifwe can just get a decent different option,
because of course we're spreading the goalsaround the team a minute, but

(16:00):
it would be nice to have thatsort of direct option and have a proven
center forward, even if it's onethat's perhaps in the twilight of his career
career, like when we had Loreenteand you know, the Championship final,
that sort of comes on and justgets an important view goals when we need
them. I think, you know, we don't need to be looking for

(16:23):
a superstar, do we think thewhole they're carrying it so well, well,
you know that, as we've saidbefore the future is bright, and
I think you know at least it'syou know, I've said to on this
part, but also to other friendswho think, you know, we're getting
a bit carried away, but it'sit's just nice to be able to look

(16:45):
forward to the games now and andand you know that also there is this
kind of strange feeling, which ittakes some getting used to, is that
when we seem to sort of getahead in games, you kind of feel
feel that the players have got enoughnow to manage the game as well,
that they're you know, they've beencoached the right way or been selected the

(17:08):
right way. I mean, there'sbeen taught recently, isn't there, and
personally interviewing on several occasions various plagesto make sure they're coming for the right
reasons, and you know, andsort of sussing them out as people as
well as players, because, likehe says, you know, you get
to this level and everybody's good,but what makes it different is, you

(17:30):
know, you have to get theright combination of people. And I think
you know, that's that's what goingback to my other point that I mentioned
earlier in that sort of list,is that you know about his man management
skills, understanding how you how youbuild a team, I think is what
I He's one of the reasons whygives me hope. I mean, you
know, as I say, I'mnot saying we will win it this year,

(17:52):
but I do feel that we wewill be contenders, you know.
It feels it feels to me thatwe've we've got an we will haven't Yeah,
from where we are at the moment, I think we we've got to
be looking at a good Champions Leaguespot, haven't we. Yeah? Yeah,
you know, and why not,because, like you say, it's
not and it's not even contingent onthe fact that United are a mess and

(18:15):
Chelsea are a mess either. It'sit's contingent on the fact that we're playing
fucking wonderful football, you know,and we've played Top four with worse teams
playing worse football in recent years,you know. Yeah, yeah, right,
let's get into the game then.So it was an unusual game.
I think we had Presumer back justquickly. What did you make of his

(18:38):
return? Well, like I saidto you before we started recording, really
the whole game was a bit ofa non event for me. I can't
really remember any standout performances from it, including him. I mean, yeah,
I mean I think we missed himagainst Fulham more than we more than
I noticed he was there this time. Yeah, now I tend to agree.

(19:02):
I think, you know, hegot hiked off a bit later on.
I just don't know if he waslike he was. I know,
it's been a little while since heplayed the game. It felt like he
was slightly under par. Was heworried about getting booked for the Chelsea game?
Maybe maybe that's the no thinking whenwe took him off, you know,
but you know, in case areyou know, he kind of a

(19:26):
brilliant game every game and then wedidn't have a who doggie. I think
that was key. I mean,he seems to be crucial to the way
we play with those overlapping and underlappingfall back kind of positions. Ben Davis
seems a little bit it's kind oflike cautious about getting up there a bit.
So I think he did an okayjob. But what did you feel
about Ben Davis's impact? Pretty muchthat well, I think I think it's

(19:49):
that was kind of typical of whatyou're going to get from Ben Davis,
now, aren't you. I mean, he's been at the club since about
fifteen sixty five. You know,he's he's not getting any younger. This
is fifteen thousandth manager and new systemhe's had to adapt to and he's not
getting the game time to get usedto it. So I think you know,

(20:11):
what you're going to get from BenDavis is a decent, solid in
field performance and I think that's whathe gave us. You know, he's
not going to be eating, ishe. But you know, I mean
contrast him with how Emerson Royal lookedlike when he came on against Fulham,
who looked like he hadn't kicked aball in six months. Yea, even
you know, I think I thinkhe at least looked a little bit more

(20:33):
solid than that. Yeah, Imean, yeah, he's never going to
let you down, but I justfor the system we play, I think
he just lacks a dynamism that weneed. But that you know, that's
not on him. That's just youknow what he's like, as they call
him the Welsh Tortoise, don't they, But it's going to be it's going
to be difficult for him to havethe kind of pace that you know,

(20:55):
he's never going to be like OoDoogie, who's probably about ten years younger
than him, but just you know, AnyWho, So he did it,
did a decent enough job. Buttalking about doing a job, one of
the things I noticed that his palace, I thought, came to make the
game rough only at the very beginning, like Edward had you know, a

(21:17):
pretty decent chance that Vicario got downand saved, and I thought he did
that really well. But apart fromthat, it looked like their kind of
basic tactics was to come along,rough us up, kick us, breake
us down the you know, downthe calves or whatever. And we were
talking last match in the fullh andone about how well the ref played.
I thought the ref was awful inthis. I mean he didn't really produce

(21:41):
any cards at all, which thengave them almost like the permission to carry
on kicking us throughout the game.There was there was one moment when Van
der Venn went down. We wereall, you know, holding our heads
in horror. And I don't thinkthe player even got a card at that
point either. Yeah, you know, what were your thoughts on their taxes?

(22:02):
Understandable or do you think that theywere just out of order? Well,
it was predictable if nothing else,you know, and I'm sure we
would have expected it because we knowthat that's how they're going to come and
do it. They've had a badcouple of results coming up to this game,
didn't they. They'd lost away atNewcastle and I can't remember where else
they'd lost, but I think they'velost a couple of the bounds and so

(22:23):
to them, it was very importantnot to let the game get taken away
from them, and I think theonly thing they have in their armory in
order to do that is to kickteams like us. You know, they
can't help play us. You know, Roy Ocham, for all he is,
you know, an ambassador of thegame and a hugely experienced manager,
doesn't have a huge amount of toolsat his disposal, you know. I

(22:45):
mean, they don't have Zahara anymore. They you know, they've lost a
lot of whatever threat they've had inpast seasons. And they had a Lisa
and out that match as well,so they're kind of any creativity there had
was gone. Yeah, totally.So, I mean I expected them to
be physical and they were. Ithink the ref didn't handle it particularly well.

(23:08):
No, like you say, itgave them planks to keep doing it.
But I think it was useful becausewe're going to get a lot of
that the more the season goes on. If we keep on playing and winning
and turning teams over, then it'sgoing to be something that emerges as a
routine tactic to play against us,especially when you know we've got games against

(23:30):
teams like Everton coming up. Youknow, you know that's going to be
a physic Those kind of things aregoing to be physical encounters. I know
we've already played Burnley once, butyou know Sheffield United were a little bit
the same. They were sort ofkicking us and then footalling over when we
looked at them, and I think, I actually think, actually it was

(23:51):
a really useful exercising this is whatyou're going to face and this is how
you're going to have to overcome it. And I think it was interesting.
I did listen in the in thedays leading up to it to I'm saying
about giving the players autonomy. Youknow, when presented with a problem,
you've got to work out how tosolve it. I can't do it from
the touch line. And for along time I thought Crystal Palace presented us

(24:15):
with a problem because they stopped usplaying entirely. Didn't they enough? You
know, But you know, wecame out of it without picking up any
major there were no nasty lasting injuriesfrom it, so I'm not overly concerned.
I think, you know, theghost of Tony Poolish walks in the
lower half of the Premier League everyseason. It just wears different colors.

(24:37):
Yeah, yeah, well we'll justpassed Halloween. But I'll give you that
one. So but yeah, sono, I yeah again, once more,
Rich, I couldn't agree more.I think actually that that will serve
us well in the future. Iwonder, like a wily old fox like
Hodgson probably thought, you know thatthey played some lovely football and used to

(25:00):
knocking it around. Let's see howthey get on if we if we clog
them, you see, And wepassed that test exactly. Yeah, this,
this is my point entirely. Thatwill have been what they were thinking,
right, Well, let's see howthey fancy it on a rainy night
in South London. You know.Well it turns out he fancied it,
you know, So yeah, it'svery encouraging. Absolutely. I mean there

(25:23):
were a couple I mean that momentwhere I thought fander Nley looked really in
a lot of pain. And thatagain how the ref never, I mean
more of that is on the ref. I think I can understand, like
you're you're suggesting why Hodgson would havechosen tactics like that, you know,
because you've got no creativity barely,they're going to be able to attack.

(25:44):
So what they're going to do maybeyou're sitting make the game nasty, raff,
break it up, hope to getone somewhere on the break or from
a set piece, and then youknow, basically shut up shop or kick
us out the game kind of thing. You know that, you know that
their best players were out, soI suppose they were limited in many ways.

(26:06):
But like you say, that's onemore test we did pass that.
You know, our players showed thecharacter to say, you know, hang
on a second, we're not thesoft underbelly spurs that some have labeled us
with anymore. We're up to thisand we're up for this fight as well,
so bring it on. Yeah.Yeah, And I think it's the

(26:26):
one thing that I look for asa test of progress almost more than anything
else now, is because when teamslike that come and play against us like
that home or away under high flyingPochettino. Lou dropping points against West Brom
cost us the league. You know, those years that we finished second and

(26:48):
third. The difference in between finishedin those places and lifting the title was
when teams came and kicked us andsat in deep and we never found a
solution for it. And if youlook at him over there at Chelsea now
they've got two problems. The firstis that they can't buy a goal,
and the second is that when peoplecome and kick them and rough them up
a bit, they don't know whatto fucking do about it. And that's

(27:08):
they've been pasts. They kicked theirway to Premier League titles in the last
fifteen years. So, you know, I think it's I think it's it's
not pretty and it's not lovely memorablefootball to have to witness. But you
know, we came away from thatwith three points and we would not have
done that in almost any other season. I don't think, no, And

(27:29):
I mean I know that phrase hasbeen used a lot of times, but
I actually think that is true.You know, we we would have wilted
I think under that kind of pressure. Yeah. So, and talking about
sort of being you know, reallysort of trying to for us trying to
control the game. Romero incredibly hadthe most passes of any spurs a vender

(27:49):
in history. So thought something wasforty one. Apparently, I mean a
lot of those were, you know, ways and backwards, because basically we
were trying to draw them out,because even when we went one nail up,
they weren't attacking. I mean,if you saw that sequence of play
where he's he's passing it to vanderVenner and they're passing it backwards and forwards

(28:11):
to Vicario. Sorry, ro Mariobe incredible to the Carrio and and yeah,
I mean clearly, you know,their fans started booing and you know,
but but clearly what we were tryingto do is just say, look,
draw them onto us, so wecan so we can open that up
and and spring them and and makesome attacks and it and it worked.

(28:36):
But you know that their their fansthought we'd been negative. But what I
can't I can't see what else we'resupposed to do. If they're just going
to pack that area and just sortof sit in a low block, you
have to you have to use yourintelligence. And I think that goes back
to what you're saying that you knowthat's the problem. How do you solve
it? And I think that theyworked it out on the pitch. We
need to draw them out and andand literally that if you if you go

(29:00):
and look at the videos of that, you can see their players just standing
there watching us passing it around.So there's no wonder Romero had so many
bloody passes. Yeah, yeah,yeah, totally. I mean, and
you know it is it's it's almosttactical what I want, isn't it.
You've got to make the pitch bigger, You've got you know, and you're
just going to stand there. Imean, of course their fans were buying,

(29:23):
but fuck their fans, you know, they live south of the rivers.
That first far fast, gotta putmy teeth back in. That first
half was was pretty uneventful. Imean, my wife was watching it with
me and she says, this isboring. I think she probably was right.

(29:45):
First off was a bit boring.It was a bit, you know,
a bit like a boxing match,you know, where we were kind
of like feeling them out a bitand trying to sort of soften them up
and draw them out of position.But it livened up in the second half.
Maybe Yan gave me a rocket athalftime. I think we pressed harder.
In fact, early in that firsthalf Madison almost robbed their keeper,
didn't he and nearly took it offthe keeper's toes, and that would have

(30:07):
been nice. So I think wejust sort of it was a signal of
my intent with you know, we'regoing to really come at you now.
And then you know, our firstgoal was another own goal. Madison sort
of thunders one across the face ofthe goal and the palace captain Ward knocks
it into his own net. Nowthat isn't the first time that's happened.

(30:29):
Obviously, Matt tips one as well. Do you think that's just plain luck?
Or have we made our own luck? Do you think with that sort
of situation, Well, I thinkif you listen to if you listen to,
you know, the lofty philosophical conjugationsof any number of ex pros,
they will tell you that you playthe ball into that area with enough pace,

(30:49):
enough times, it's going to endup in the in the goal,
you know, And I think that'swhat it is. I think they just
hit hit the six yard box,you know, hit that area right slap
bang in the middle, center infront of the goal a couple of yards
out. If the ball goes inthere with pace, somebody's got to attack
it. It will either go inoff Gary mabbots knee or or you know,

(31:11):
in this case, is it wasit James Ward. I can't remember,
is you know, it goes inoff him, or or it goes
in off the back, off theback and keep his head or something like
that, you know. Yeah,And I think I think it's just the
numbers game, isn't it that theythat they go. We We've got to
keep putting that ball into there,Jesus. One of these days we might
even find Richarlison running onto it.Right. Well, that brings me on

(31:33):
to my next point. Richie boy, so he well he got hooked at
some point. Then in Johnson cameon, who had almost pretty much immediate
impact. You know, the lovelyheader that came you know, when it
was knocked across, he just quicklyheaded it across and between sort of him
and and and Madison and so onthey combined to craft a beautiful go its

(32:00):
a lovely, lovely move. Atthat point, you know, you felt
that it was beyond palace. Butour man, Richie, are we ah?
Yeah, are we giving him aneasier time because we want it to
work, or you know, ordo we really are we starting to have
some doubts here, do you know? I'm pretty happy to persevere with him

(32:24):
at the minute. And the simplereason for that is at the top of
the league, yeah, you know. I mean, if if we were
dropping points and dropping away from thefrom the pack already, then I think
the time to be asking major questionson whether he should start would be now.
But but we're not seeming to besuffering for the fact that we are

(32:45):
playing him and he's not scoring,and I think that's important. I think
we can talk about team cohesion,and that team looks a lot like it's
a unit, and they look alot like they're playing for one another.
And we spoke the other day afterthe Fulham game about how they appear to
be sometimes trying too hard to getthe ball to Richarlison in scoring positions.

(33:07):
But that's obviously a unit that's workingfor itself and for each other. And
we're not dropping points, we're atthe top of the league, so I
don't think it's the time to havethis conversation about it. It would be
lovely if he's scoring if he wasmore effective. But while we're still picking
the wins up, then let's justlet him play it out and if it

(33:29):
ain't got any better Christmas, thenwe'll have to think about whether or not
he's right for the team. ButI don't think it's the time to worry
yet because Sons Sons having the yearbefore last and not last year, and
Madison's coming in and doing a greatjob. Kudisesky's been more effective than he
was towards the end of last season, although he's still to some extent,

(33:51):
you know, not quite the breakthroughplayer that he was. Let's just see
what happens, you know. Imean we've got we've got. I think
we've got leeway to allow him toplay through it. Yeah, be that
guy, is he? I mean, he's always going to be beeing goals
a season and I think we gotif we can get fifteen the season out

(34:12):
of him from the left, thenI think it's sixty billion quid well spent
in it. Yeah, I meanto be to be honest, that for
us, I suppose we should belooking to the manager, and the manager
knows what he's doing. I don't. It doesn't strike me as somebody who's
just going to play them out ofsympathy. So he must see like we
mentioned last time talking about his industry, he must see enough in his game.
I mean, to be fair,one of the things he does really,

(34:32):
really well is one of the oneof our sort of key tactics is
that's sort of around the corner sortof pass, you know. So I
think he's so that he must seeenough in him. But it'll be interesting
to see whether Johnson starts to getmore games or whether Johnson will be a
bit of an impact sub at themoment. But but yeah, as you

(34:53):
say, you know, let's givehim the chance. I mean, we
are starting to have some doubts naturally, because we probably we hoped he would
be something he's clearly not so.But he's, you know, he seems
to be doing enough anyway. Soso my my my thought about it was

(35:15):
that, I mean, I didn'tgo to the Palace game, but I
did, Like I said, Idid go. I did go to Fulham,
and I was right up high inthe gods for that game, and
I watched him. I paid alot of attention to tune in that Fulham
game, and fuck me, didn'the cover some miles, you know,
And every time they broke through andthere was a there was a challenge,

(35:39):
it was him. It was himcoming back from from an advanced position to
win the ball back. It washim that was breaking their attacks up him,
that was Harry and their midfield asthey were coming through, it was
him. He was doing so muchwork. And I just don't think you
can discount that industry as a usefulthing, especially when and and madisona scoring.

(36:02):
Yeah, yeah, agreed, agreed, there you have. So I
kind of like Fastward a little bithere. We had a sort of a
raft of changes. As we said, Johnson came on and Presumer went off
as well, and I think weseem to be managing Son and Madison's minutes

(36:22):
a bit because they've been carrying aknock, haven't they. Davies came off
and Royal came on, and thenthe momentous change, which was Kulisski off
and bentont on. He could nothide how happy he was come on when
you saw him standing on the touchline, and to be fair, neither

(36:45):
could the players or we, Imean you heard the crowd. They they
weren't mad and he didn't, youknow, he didn't get to do an
awful lot in the sort of fiveor six minutes that he came on,
you know, was on something likethat anyway, But he was neat and
tidy, and I just think itkind of was more symbolic, wasn't it.

(37:05):
I think it seemed to sort oflift everybody, lift the fan base,
lift lift the players. I mean, firstly, what do you what
do you what do you make ofthat? Is he back early? And
you thought how important is this goingto be? And also my last part
of that question to you, whichis who does he displace eventually? Yeah,

(37:27):
it's an interesting question, isn't it. You know, I know you've
asked this before. Where does hefit into this team? But I mean
I don't know whether or not Iwould say that there is an obvious like
we you know, you would,for instance, say that he would replace
Sara as a facto you know,one for one. But I do think
that, you know, with withBessumer's propensity to pick up cards, is

(37:51):
probably going to be a reasonable amountof opportunity for them to interchange on a
on a fortnightly basis. You know, has been Picket has been carrying a
knock hasn't he. So you know, and those two positions in the center
of that team, you know,they do do an awful lot of work,
and there is a lot of opportunityfor them to need game time management.

(38:15):
So I think there's like a naturalcirculation in which in which those three
players plus Hoiberg, and I thinkyou are right in what you were saying
earlier that it's all easier for usto get all over Hoiberg because you know,
he's a miserable, fucking wanker andhe boltzes about his and in his
pockets half the time. But youknow, he is an effective player,

(38:38):
you know, when we need abig number of something in the middle of
the pitch. So I think betweenthe four of them that squad depth,
isn't it. You know? That'syou know, so I don't know whether
it's a question of natural replacement.I think it's the case of, yeah,
we might only have you know,thirty eight league games plus what the

(39:00):
time we get in the FA thisseason, which will hopefully be half a
dozen games and a trip to Wembleyor what eight games? Isn't it you
know, way to the double onthe way to the double? Yeah,
you know, you know we're inthe doubles, going to take more than
two central midfielders. Oh yeah,naturally, Yeah, yeah, So I

(39:21):
think I think that's where he fits. And you know, and I think,
and I know I alluded to thislast week on the Fulham Pod,
was that actually, I'm not soconcerned about where he fits. I'm more
pleased about the fact that there's nopressure on him to come in and do
a job now, because that's theinjuries come back from, and it's a
career altering injury if it's not managedproperly in its recovery, and we're terrible

(39:45):
as a club of doing doing that. We've fucked up so many good players
over the years by bringing them backand throwing them straight back in. And
if we can, if we canmanage pent and cur in a much more
positive manner, if he if hecan play five minutes this week, ten
minutes next week, twenty minutes aweek after that, half an hour and

(40:06):
then half you know, if wecan, if they can properly bring him
back in, it's better for him, it's better for us long term because
we get to keep that Rolls Roycemidfielder that he is, because for me
is a good footballer. It wouldbe such a shame. I suspect,
right, I mean, he's backa little bit earlier than I thought.
But I think the strategy you mentionedseeing would would seem the most logical.

(40:28):
I mean, what do we knowthey might play in full ninety next match.
But but but it would seem logical, wouldn't it, considering he seems
to be pretty good with the wayhe manages players minutes that in the lead
up to Afcon when we will losePursumer and we will lose so for a
little bit that we basically just phasehim back in, like you know,

(40:50):
build up his minutes over that time, and then when they're gone he steps
in. Now you know, itmight who he replaces out of that lot,
because I suspect once he gets backin he might be hard to shift
because he's suck says that this role'svoice of a player. I think you
know it's going to be harsh andwhomever really he does displace, and I

(41:10):
do suspect it will be Sar Butyou know, but then it does like
just it's a lovely dilemma, hasn'tit. I mean, what you know,
Sara has been fantastic and then tohave someone like you've described him as
a roles voice of a player tocome in and you've got them scrapping it
out for for a that's a that'sa that's that's dream you dream, Yeah,

(41:31):
I mean, and don't forget aswell. You know, it's not
just the duration of African It's it'sthe month after it, you know,
because anybody that we lose to thatpotentially goes a long way away for a
long time and then has to reacclimatizeand recover and and change you know,
pace of of of of football andget used to to to the Premier League

(41:53):
again, you know, I meanwe all saw it happen after the World
Cup last year with the England playersand with well with any of the players
that we have that played in theWorld Cup, the the the actually you
know, that sort of acclimatization intoa to an entirely different system and an
entirely different style of football. Youcan't as easily switch it on as off

(42:15):
on or not will take Van derVen, you know, for granted,
another imperious display and then Pallace getone back. Now contentious here it went
to var How did the a andr v ar not see that that was
a handball, you know, Imean, I know it has to be

(42:38):
absolutely obvious, but you know,just the trajectory of that ball. It
couldn't happened if it didn't come offhis arm, could it? What do
you reckon? What do you makea var decision to allow that goal?
I mean, I just wants fuckinggetting rid of, doesn't it? Every
week? It contradicts itself, andit and a different game it would give

(42:58):
a different, different judgment on that. And like you say, you know,
if they'd have ruled it out,there are only twenty thousand people in
the country that would argue against it, and they'd all be Crystal Palace fans.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Imean, you know, I suppose
given them their their dues that maybethey couldn't one hundred percent prove that it

(43:20):
had hit his hand, But youcouldn't one hundred percent prove that it hadn't
either. I mean, it justit just looked like it had hit his
hand. The ball, although itcan didn't bounce off his arm. He
basically it was a kind of controllingmove, wasn't it. But I mean
it didn't make any difference in theend. But you know, it's just
another frustrating VR decision. I think, yeah, you know, and I

(43:44):
think rather than actually the rights andwrongs of that decision and whether or not
it should have stood, the conversationto me is more about the fact that
none of it's fit for purpose.It doesn't add anything game, it only
takes it away. And in thatand in I just I was I've been
fairly comfortable with giving them leeway towork things out and to get better.

(44:07):
But what has it been now threeyear and a bit years and we've had
it and they're not any better atit than they were on day one.
And I mean we saw in theBurnley game at the weekend how they managed
to fuck everything up in that.I just it just they just want to
be in it. Why do theynot just go do you know what,
we've had a go it don't work. Actually, this is causing as many

(44:32):
problems as it's solving. Why don'twe just go back to having managers that
moan about decisions because for one hundredand twenty years that was good enough.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, quiteright mate. Anyway, you know,
it never really altered the outcome ofthe game, but it did alter the

(44:53):
momentum of the game, because Ithink we've for the first time kind of
got a little a bit edgy anda bit nervy because they actually started playing
and they actually came at us atthat point. In fact, I think
it was Franco who got was almostthrough and Poro just manages to put him

(45:14):
off the last second. Perhaps Francisshould have buried that made it too too,
But yeah, we got a littlebit lucky there, I think.
But the camera cut to Madison whowas on the bench, who then had
his head in his hands, yethinking, oh my god, now you
know, son, what spurs isthat kind of thing? But yeah,

(45:37):
but luckily it went our way.You know, it didn't It didn't go
in, and we we seemed to, I suppose at that point, make
a bit of too much effort ofit. But then, you know,
I think we settled down again andwe sort of managed the last few minutes
pretty well, and and then wefinished five points clear mate, I know,

(45:57):
And and what what what what astrange feeling it all is? Yeah,
and I guess we have the flipside of it this weekend, don't
we, Because we don't play untilMonday this week yeah, so we've got
to sit there and watch everybody elsepick up points without being able to do
anything about it, and so afterwards, so that's really odd. It was

(46:19):
lovely having a weekend where you knewno one could overtake us this weekend they
can, of course, you know. But having said that, you know,
it doesn't it doesn't feel you feelyou with sort of but dread is
that there's there's less jeopardy being rightat the very top, isn't there then
then it is that you're struggling forEuropean positions. So at the moment,
it feels like, you know,okay, well we've got the game of

(46:39):
Monday. Whatever the results, wecould still go ahead again. And so
let's get into that. It's jumpahead to the Monday match. Are you
going or not going to that one? No? No, no, I'm
away at the moment, so Iwon't be I won't be going. I'm
a bit disappointed not to be goingto this one because I him really really

(47:00):
interested to see what reception he's goingto get. Yeah. Yeah, now
that that seems to be dividing alot of fans. You know, I've
heard fans not just on socials,but I've had one or two pods where
they've kind of split as well.I'm going to lay my cards on the
table, and then I'm going toask you to lay yours on the table.

(47:21):
If you were there, would yoube giving him stick? I probably
would, with me tongue in mycheek a bit. You know, I
don't have any I don't have anyany actual personal vitriol against him as a
human being. Right for whatever reason, he didn't come back to us,

(47:42):
and we've got to now think thatit was a decision from our perspective that
we decided to go forwards instead ofbackwards, and that actually looks like the
right decision now. At the time, I was extremely disappointed that we didn't
reappoint him. However, and I'llsay this so, I mean, you
know, it's been said on thispodcast a dozen times, and I've written
for various other podcasts blogs about it. I adored him as our manager.

(48:08):
I've got a lot of love forhim as a human being, and I'll
always be absolutely you know, forthose years that we had and the way
that he had an affinity with himfor the club, So don't I don't
carry any antipathy for him, Butat this point, I would not swap
the decision that they made. Decisionand that said, I think if he

(48:34):
was any sort of human being,he'd gone on the doll instead of work
for Chelsea. So I think you'vegot to get stick. Yeah, well
I'm going to give him a bitof clog, but you know, only
for a bit context wise. Whenit happened on the nineteenth November twenty nineteen,
it broke my heart. I absolutelyloved the guy, but you know,

(48:55):
but it's because I bought everything hesaid hook Land and Sinker about it
much. He connected to us andloved us as a club and that's the
sort of person you want at yourclub. And I, you know,
it really hurt when he wasn't there, and you know, you were given
the the shitheads that we had asmanager after that, I was, you

(49:15):
know, a lot of us werepining for him all the time and those
days under his leadership. Then forhim to go there feels like a massive
betrayal because he himself said he doesn'teven the Arsenal rivalry he feels is lower
down than the one against Chelsea,and then to turn up there feels a

(49:38):
huge, huge betrayal because he mightyou know, he obviously must know how
the fan base would feel about that. I don't begrudge him taking a job
to get back in the Premier League. I mean, maybe beggars can't we
choose is maybe he had to makea decision on that basis. But there's
so many places he could have gone, so it feels like, yes,

(50:00):
I'm sure he will get some stick. I mean, maybe some will just
think and his name even louder,or maybe that Robbie Williams song where they
sort of call call him out,you know. But but I just,
you know, I think I thinkit'll be like that because fans are hurt,
you know, yeah he went there. I think I think the two

(50:22):
sides of it is that they're they'reentitled to feel like that, and I
have felt like that, and I'myou know, when he went there,
I though fuck, you know,you know, but but you know,
these are other things are also true. We're fans, he's a professional,
he's got a living to earn.I'm sure Chelsea are paying him fucking tens
of millions and pounds a year.And if somebody offered me ten million pounds

(50:45):
a year to go and work forChelsea, you're fucking right, I'd go
and work for Chelsea. One ofthe other people who I've got a massive
amount of time for football for inthe football world is Emma Hayes. She's
women's manager and she spurs through andHuddle did it and Hoddle did it as
well. You know, you've gotto remember that this sort of latent,

(51:05):
you know, the fact that wedetest each other. I mean, I
grew up in a family that wassplit fifty to fifty between Chelsea and Spurs.
I spent as much as my childhoodwatching Chelsea as I did watch in
Tottenham. And there was never thatantipathy, you know, I mean largely
because Chelsea were a shoestring club.I think, you know, we didn't.
It was like, I don't know, but this kind of pantomime like

(51:27):
we hate everybody and all this,you know, it's it's cost playing hooliganism
again, you know. Yeah,there was always there was that that,
you know, there was the realtough on the streets, we'll kick shit
out of each other antimpathy. Yeah, but generally speaking, you know,
you could always have a reasonable amountof a laugh with the fans of these
clubs, you know, and it'sonly really with this later latter years,

(51:51):
like the cartoonification of the Premier League. You know, that's this this media
nonsense that surrounds it all. Nowthere's kind of super charged all of that.
And and so my like I alwayssay, you know, it's that
adage, isn't it. You hateArsenal because you're Tottenham and you hate Chelsea
because you're a human being. Butyou know, and there is a bit

(52:12):
of that, you know, withthe way that they be, even the
way that they are in the race. I mean they have their first song
that they sing is about how muchthey hate Tottenham. Yeah, yeah,
yeah, But you know, sothere's the two sides of it. I
think our fans are particularly you know, entitled to feel a grieved because of
that. But then also, likeyou say, Glennarda went there and then

(52:32):
he managed us, you know,and we didn't give him any shit over
it. I think I think theatmosphere will be a bit febro. I
think there will be that, youknow, there will be a real edge
to it. But some of it, as you say, I think it
is pantomime. And actually that's allright, you know, I think that's
all right. I mean, thereis an element of that sort of pantomime
baddy stuff like Willian the other daywhere they're booing him and all that kind

(52:55):
of stuff. You know, itactually just gets the crowd going, so
you as long as it doesn't getyou know, like nasty. I mean,
the only time to get nasty isif they go two or three goals
up, you know. Yeah,yeah, you know, I think if
so long as we give them theseeing too that I think we should do,
then then I think it'll all bea bit tongue in cheek and we'll

(53:15):
do him a bit and I thinkhe'll probably get a round of applause,
and I think he'll get welcome back, you know. You know, I
mean, Martin, you'll never crossthe divide to to either to either of
the horrible clubs, you know,but he managed other London teams and he
managed the teams in the Premier League, and he came back and was always
welcomed. And you know what wouldbe perfect is if we were three or

(53:37):
four up and everyone start then startedsinging your spoking you know you are,
yeah, yeah, well I thinkI think we want to start singing.
There is the magic, you know, some one's worth three or four.
So how do you think they'll play. I mean, we know how we'll
play. But I got, youknow, I seem to remember Potch like

(54:00):
in this kind of tactical, foulsort of game. And of course we
go back to the Battle of theBridge, and that was a really niggly
game. I would not be surprisedif this game was a bit niggly and
a bit more of a war ofattrition between the two sides. You know,
it strikes me. I mean,I know they play quite good football,

(54:21):
so it may not be, butI just get the feeling that he
definitely won't want to lose this one, and it could get a little bit
kind of a little bit niggly attimes. Yeah, I think I think
they're going to ask quite a lotof the ball. I think, yeah,
I think they, like you say, they're going to be well up
for it, aren't they. Youknow? I think I think, you

(54:45):
know, we've had the lion's shareof possession in almost every game we've played
this season, except for perhaps awayat the Swamp, and I don't know,
I think they'll have a lot ofa lot of possession. I think
Romero and Van Derved are going tosee are probably going to be our two

(55:05):
key players. Yeah, yeah,I think I think actually, you know,
going forward, they appear to doeverything really really well apart from put
the ball in the back of thenet, and I would like to see
that carry on. Yeah, thiswill Traditionally, this will be the game.
Jackson score is a fucking hat trick. But hopefully now we are just

(55:28):
like that, that's a completely differentteam. I feel positive about it.
Worryingly so, I feel like weI think, especially if we go a
goal ahead, I think we'll reallyyou know, turn the screw on them.
And so should we go for predictions? What's your what's your prediction?
I think we'll be on two toone, and I think our winning goal

(55:51):
will come quite late as well.I'm going to go three one to us.
Yeah, you're a bit more confidentthan me. I think. I
think that. I think they'll holdus off for huge periods of the game.
I think that's what they'll do.But I think I think it's going
to I think this is a massivelitmus test, far more than the than
the Arsenal game was actually well,well, one thing for sure, form

(56:13):
kind of goes out the window.It's like when we play west Ham,
we'll play Arsenal. You know,whatever the current league form, it doesn't
matter because for those teams beating us, you know, it's so important to
their season. So I think,you know, we're going to know we're
in a game. That's why Ithink it's going to be pretty. You
know, there might be a numberof tactical fouls, and it's going to
get a bit kind of a bitlarier points, I suspect, because you

(56:35):
know they're they're down on their luckand they want they'll want to turn up
and bring us down a peg.I think, so I suspect it will
be a difficult game. But Ido think if we get a goal or
so, you know, goal ahead, like I said, I think we
might be at to turn the screwon them and then we'll see what they're
made of this and see how stratedthey get. Yeah, yeah, I

(56:57):
mean, I think I think it'spivotal that we get the first goal because
if we're chasing the goal, thennow close up shop and it will become
very difficult for us because they area well organized team and results do not
do them justice. You know,you know, they're a far better side
than their positioning the table actually actuallysort of suggests. I mean, I'd

(57:20):
love to see us play them offthe part, but I think they're a
little bit too technical for that.But I do think that if we can
get the goal, then they're chasingthe game and that will allow us to
get another goal. I think that'sthe way it will go. I'm really
really excited to see how we gofor it. I'd love to see us.
I'd love to see us just goat them from the word go,

(57:40):
to just put them under a shitloadof pressure, not let them get any
time to find their feet, forthem to really really know where they are
and know they're in a fight fromthe word gun. And I think if
we do that, I think thatthen sets the tone for everything that comes
afterwards, because we've got wolves afterwhich, you know, not the most
glamorous fixture, but it will bedifficult. We've got aston Villa and fucking

(58:05):
are they're a form side at themoment. We've got you know, we've
got we've got a couple of reallybig tests. And I think this is
the bit where he goes right,all of this work we've done for the
last few months. Today is theday you've got to prove if it works
or not. Yeah, well,you know, I think we played better
against the teams that play better.I mean, ironically, I think we
we played better against Liverpool's eleven thenI think we did against their nine.

(58:28):
So this this this game, youknow, they they like you say,
I think their results haven't kind ofreally told the true picture of what that
team is like. It's there.It's their attack that's been the issue.
But their their their overall play hasbeen pretty decent. So I think that
will suit us. But that doesn'tpreclude the you know, my idea that

(58:52):
it won't also get a bit livelyand Larry at points. Oh, I
think it will. I think there'llbe some cards in it. I think
there'll be some tasty challenges in it. And I do not see us getting
rolled over, even if we getbeaten. I don't think we're going to
get rolled over. All right,Well, I hope you're right, Rich,

(59:13):
and I think we'll draw it toa close at this point and I'll
see you obviously next week for thefollow up. POD will be gloating hopefully
touch would hopefully we will still betop of the league. Yeah, yeah,
I wouldn't that be nice, youknow, to be able to say
that we've played We've played Willlwich andLiverpool and Chelsea and Man United and still

(59:35):
stay top, and still stay top. Well, yeah, I keep passing
these tests. Let's onto the nextone, Onto the next one. Lovely
job, all right mate? WellI speak to you soon, come on
you Spurs. Oh yeah, there'sno place I would I wouldn't want to

(59:57):
be right here in this minute oftrying to bring success to one of the
biggest football clubs in the world.M m m. The basic underlet line
principles that yao on my team toplay football that scares the life out of
every opposition. That's that's kind ofthe end game. H