S4 E15 - NO-vember

The inimitable Ritch Grove and @leebrown2 discuss Villa's smash and grab, holding our nerve, Spurs identity and also look ahead to the City mauling (I mean game!).

Episode Transcript

(00:03):
You know, there's no place Iknow if I wouldn't want to breathe Ryan
here, And you know, inthis minute of trying to bring success to
one of the biggest football clubs inthe world, the basic under like principles
that you all want my team toplay football that scares the life out of
every opposition. Mate, that's that'skind of the end game. And welcome

(00:33):
once again to the Barside Spurs podcast. And joining me is our co host
the man of many talents, includingan Oxford doctor and just general all round
great bloke is Rich Grove. Howare you my friend? All right?

(00:56):
Mate, that's a very nice introduction, Lee. I don't know what you're
at stuck because you don't owe meany money or anything. So why are
you being nice to me? Ah? Well, you know, I'm just
all round good egg. As theysay, I'm always fucking suspicious when people
are nice about me. It normallymeans I'm going to spend a few days
crawling about underneath their car or something. Well, to be fair, you

(01:21):
know, I do know a fewpeople will to embarrass you who talk very
highly of your mate, So,you know, typical British we find it
hard to take your good you know, compliments, don't we really but oh
yeah, it's very kind anyway,but thank you for the introduction. No
worries anyway, Yeah, I'm okay. Yeah. So I thought we'd start
off by paying tribute to Terry Venablesand I got a message actually on the

(01:48):
morning of because i'd heard a whisperthe night before, but I got message
kind of before before the match,and quite early in the morning of on
Sunday from our friend and Tom Mitchellmessaged me that he'd heard that it's true
that in a Terriod past And yeah, it was quite a shock really because

(02:10):
I mean, apparently it was fairlywell known that he was not hadn't been
well for a while and he's beenkind of convalescing in in Spain where he
lives. But I had no idea. So it came a bit of a
bit of a shock and a sadone because for me as a manager,

(02:36):
he was probably the manager I rememberthe most is when I first started supporting
Spurs. And although I'm of anage where I should really know more about
Spurs, before that time, Iwasn't really a massive football fan before really
I started supporting Spurs under Venables.That was eighty seven. You know,

(02:57):
I was still a teenager at thetime and I was probably more in England
and you know girls, and you'renot really in any particular club at that
time. So I mean, myfamily can't. I come from a family
that's not really football related. They'reinto rugby and boxing and all that kind
of stuff. Because my dad wasin the Forces, didn't really have any

(03:19):
time at all for football. Thefact that Jimmy Greeves was was a friend
of my granddad's was by the byedid you know, no one really you
know, thought about football in myfamily at all. So when I sort
of picked Spurs, one of thereasons was was because of, you know,

(03:40):
the way we played, and thenthe sort of charismatic personality of Venables
was another kind of clincher for me. So when he joined from Barcelona,
he was our manager from eighty sevento ninety one. I think we sort

(04:00):
of did okay with he Andrew's leadership, but we did finish third in nineteen
ninety and of course then he's thelast manager to have won us the FA
Cup and I think he's the onlyplayer, if I remember rightly, to
have won the FA Cup as aplayer and won it as a manager for
Spurs, and you have to sayprobably players like Lineka and Gascoy and would

(04:28):
they have joined Spurs if it wasn'tfor Venables. I'm not sure. He
did have kind of a big influenceon the game. I saw somewhere recently
Tim Vickery was talking about him,going so far as to say he probably
is the most important English manager ofall time, and we might have thought
that of say Bobby Robson, buthis argument is that what he did at

(04:54):
Barcelona after winning the title for thefirst time eleven years, laid the foundations
Croift coming in and then from Croiftto Guardiola and in terms of that kind
of through line, his influence hasbeen enormous. So I mean, you
know, you could you could overstateit, but I you know there was
but clearly the man was was notonly charismatic, but he was also in

(05:19):
a visionary with his football. Theway he played with England was an absolute
joy. It's probably the last timeI've really really truly enjoyed watching England was
under Venable's tenure and it was amassive shame I thought that he didn't get
given a new contract. We allwe all wanted that. It felt like
there was unfinished business, didn't it. I think I think so much so

(05:40):
that I think he was brought backunder, wasn't it. Steve McLaren.
I think he was brought in ashe's second. But it never quite worked
out, did it? Really?But I thought that stadium, you know,
when we got to the stadium,considering it was so late that the
fact that they did a tribute wascredit to Spurs, and they did it,
you know, a nice tribute tobefore the match with the black arm

(06:02):
bands and and the and the minutesapplause. In fact that the applause went
on for much longer than that,and then of course there were words were
said at halftime. Subsequently, youknow, lots of players, players and
managers have all talked about, includingPep himself, about Velnable's influence. So

(06:23):
yeah, you know, may herest in peace, but I feel,
you know, for there are obviouslythe other sides of his personality and things
that I won't go into now.You know that the running with Sugar and
how all that turned out, andyou know his time as chief executive at
spursa you know, but focusing onthe man and focusing on the manager.

(06:47):
I think he was brilliant and Ithink his man management was probably second to
none. Yeah, I sort ofecho all of that. Really. I
mean, h Venables again, forme, is really my sort of formative
Spurs manager. I mean, I'ma bit you know, aware of of
of the club a bit underplete beforehim, and and and I kind of

(07:13):
came in on the cusp of himtaking over there, you know. And
yeah, like you say that sortof that sort of you know, they're
there. It's not the holy Trinityof Spurs in the eighties and early nineties,
isn't it. It's ve Venables,Lineker and Gascoyne. You know,
Yeah, yeah, yeah, youknow. And it was kind of like
the new era, wasn't it,Because of course, you know, the

(07:35):
side that that preceded that was theside that was that was Hoddle and and
and and Chris Woddel and players likethis, you know, and and then
there was this new kind of thisnew Spurs going into the nineties, and
obviously it fell apart, you know, because of things that were happening off
the pitch, because of Irving Scholarand and possibly you know, Venables kind

(07:59):
of did his best for the club, but maybe wasn't the right person to
have been in that position, butwas in that position. I mean,
I do think he deserves an awfullot of credit for bringing Sugar in.
I mean, you talk, youknow, I've read Sugar sort of say
that it was really Venerables that persuadedhim. And you know, although they
fell out quite quickly and it allwent a bit pair shape for them as

(08:20):
a duo, you know, itwas his influence that brought him to the
club and we and we shouldn't forgethow close to the world Spurs were at
that time. You know. Therethere was talk of winding up orders and
huge problems and we had points deductionsbecause the stadium wasn't ready at the start
of the season and and all thisstuff, you know. I mean obviously
they had to sell Gascoyne to tryand balance the books, and you know,

(08:43):
things were going wrong quite badly.But I think Terry Bean there was
was you know, his kind oflove for the club and his affinity with
the club was very important in gettingus through that period. You know.
So even though you know, inblack and white, like you say,
when people read the history of theman and his life. There'll be this
kind of less than glorious chapter withyou know, with the with the HMRC

(09:07):
or the Department of Trade. Erwas that ultimately took him to court.
And again, you know, theshame of it is is that that's what
really affected his England because it wasall that come into a head that made
him step down. And it isa shame. I mean, that England
team was they were they were streetsahead of what of what the clubs were
doing at the time. Really,aside from even Ferguson wasn't really winding up

(09:33):
to be that inventive and that youknow, that forward thinking of a manager
at the time. What he wasdoing with the national team was was was
wonderful and yeah, you know,an incredible player, you know, incredible
sort of manager for us. Sorry, interesting really to think. I mean,
like you say about your family.You know, my family football wise,

(09:56):
are split largely Chelsea and Tottenham.It's interesting to think really that the
Venables played far more games and wasact Chelsea far longer as a player than
he was at Spurs. Same Ithink with QPR as well. I think
he was there a lot longer thanhe was because he was only actually at
Topham for about three years, weren'the you know, I mean he will

(10:16):
like say, he won the fA Cup in sixty seven, but I
think, you know, the affinitythat he had with the club from those
three years was enormous and and amassive loss, massive loss for me.
I always enjoyed him as a personality. I like the sort of jocular,
jovial people that we that we getand Terry was very infectious. And when
you you heard him speak, youyou caught a bit of his enthusiasm for

(10:39):
the game, you know, andwithout wanting to make too many lazy comparisons
and and be a bit sort ofhot taking about it, there are there
are certainly shades of his manner inour current manager, you know, sort
of engaging, passionate, enthusiastic,but informed but quite informal, you know.
Yeah, and you know some ofthe other big names in the Premier

(11:01):
League. I mean I've mentioned Fergusonalready, but you know, Ferguson thought
he owned the fucking world. Andyou've got the impression that he thought you
lot were all lucky to be listeningto him, whereas you didn't get that
with Terry. You know, noTerry sort of came across as the sort
of guy would be happy to sitand talk to the tea lady as well
as the chairman. You know.He just he kind of had that sort
of if you're like a bedside mannerabout him, that he could be relaxing

(11:24):
anybody's company, you know. AndI think that actually that was one of
the perfect qualities that he brought tothe England job, because before that it
was very fractured and he made itsort of the first time we sort of
heard this kind of clubby club Englandkind of phrase, wasn't it. And
he he got that kind of mentalityinto the players, and the players for
the first time will really look forwardto coming to be together and not and

(11:46):
not clique and to be as onein that setup. And that's you know,
all down to him. Yeah,And I mean I think that,
you know, the influence of himon Gascoyne as a player as well.
You know, I mean, ifyou know, many of us think back
on Paul's career and one of thehighlights of that career is that Euro ninety
six tournament, and it was Terry'sman management of him. You know.

(12:07):
Paul obviously was a loose cannon allof his career, and he played with
problems personally and professionally, physically andmentally, and Terry always seemed to get
the best out of him, didn'the. You know? Yeah, yeah,
absolutely, Well let's let's get ontothe game then, And like I

(12:28):
said, there was a tribute atthe game to Terry and it was very
poignant. I feel maybe that it, you know, it possibly lifted the
players to begin with, because Ithink we just came out of the traps
like crazy. That team? Shouldwe start with that team? What did
you make of it? Three threeleft backs? In defense? We had

(12:52):
a Vicario, Doggy Royal, Davies, Poro, Benson, Curlerselso, Hill,
Koler, sewsky Son and John Anddoes it get much more? And
then that team, well, Imean it's a combination of strung together.
You knows, it's it's on ashoe string in it. And also it
fits, don't it. You knowunder a manager, we'd have lost that

(13:16):
game about eight mil with that side. Yeah, yeah, I mean my
frustration obviously, you know, Ido have to eat me words a little
bit. My frustration with it allseeing Gila Slso's name on the team sheet,
because the quicker week can get himaway from his football club, the
happier I will be. But thenof course he goes and scores, even
even though it's a deflected goal.You know, of course I have to

(13:37):
sit there and shut up for aminute and go all right, Richard,
you know, you know nothing,but yeah, it's yeah, yeah,
well, I mean it nearly worked. It nearly did. Yeah. I
think I think we'll sort of doa kind of flavor of that in a
second, you know, thoughts andfeelings on it, and you know some
of the turning points. But yeah, I think you're right, rich I

(13:58):
think he really nearly worked. AndI know that sounds a bit trite to
you know, to to drop thatout as an excuse, but let's let's
let's face it. We are downto the bare bones. We had to
name two keepers and we were onesub light. That's how bare bones we
are at the moment. And toput a team out like that, because
I think the game against Wolves,I don't think he liked that. I

(14:20):
think that was two old spurs forhim, and so he dropped at Hoiberg
and Dire because they seem to bethe ones that you know, don't get
it, get us wrong. We'vecredit where credits due. They've stepped in
and they've done a job. Butthey but they slow the game down.
And I think he saw that andhe was brave enough to make that decision

(14:41):
because the easier decision would be toput those into, you know, to
make it more solid. But hethought, you know, we're going to
play to our philosophy, our identity. Well, I don't think they do
make it solid. That's the thing, isn't it. I mean, this
is where that that that thinking allfalls down. And I mean everybody,
you know, you're right, everybodysort of sees that that Dyer and Heiberg

(15:03):
did come in cold, you know, having I mean, Heiberg's played a
few minutes this season, you know, mostly as a sub and what have
you. But you know, DIYerobviously it was his first start in his
first game for since preseason against Wolves, so he's come in cold and for
eighty five minutes of that game hedid all right. You know, we
can't argue with that. But likeyou say, they don't shore it up

(15:26):
because they slow the game down toomuch. They are inherently slow players,
you know, whether it's because they'reinnured with the previous two or three manager's
philosophies of slowing the ball down andcontrolling the game through through quite staid periods
of possession. I don't know,but they seem to open us up to
that weakness of having the ball robbedof us. And in an hour and

(15:48):
a half there's an awful lot ofchances to rob the ball from that deep
position and turn us over, whichis why you know, it obviously cost
us at Wolves in the end.And I think he's right sort of look
at that and go, well,it's not going to work because we're just
gonna, like you say, it'slast season, Spurs, and what happened
last season We got turned around andwe conceded goals like they were going out

(16:10):
of fashion. So I got totry something new, and I think they
looked a lot more positive and alot better for the changes. Absolutely,
I mean, to be honest,I think hanshaid himself, you play that
game ten times and probably six orseven we win. Yeah, and again
that I honestly, you know,hand on heart, I don't think that's

(16:32):
a delusion. I think actually thechances we had were were insane. I
mean, in the first five minutes, kul Sesky hits the post and hell
Is then given an elbow in theface, which one that should have been
a penalty, maybe even a redcard. Funnily enough, Var wasn't working

(16:52):
at that point. Yeah, yeah, yeah, So I mean that's that
that that kind of you could feelthat sweep around the stadium and the sort
of injustice and haven't looked back atit. I mean, he clearly is
fouled and that should have been apenalty. Then you know, we look,
la Celso scores that goal slightly slightdeflection. But I thought overalls,
I had a pretty good game.Is I've seen some takes saying he had

(17:15):
a fantastic game. I wouldn't gothat far, but I thought he had
a decent game. You know,he showed for the ball and he was
you know, he's up for it. But you know that in that first
half it was one way traffic.I mean, the guy behind me,
he was his season ticket holder,said to us, he said, ow,

(17:36):
we not eight mil up. Isaid, and I said, but
you know what that means, don'tyou? You know, We're just It's
just one of those things you justfeel that if you don't put them away.
It's going to come and bite youon the ass. So he did
put a few of them away,and then the powers that be decided they
weren't you know, I know,yeah, And I've looked at them again
and they must be so close.A bit like that, Watkins equalized,

(17:56):
I mean, var intervenes. ThenI think that kind of slows everything down
as well, that you know thatlooking at that, we took about five
minutes and you know, he musthave don't know, maybe a toenail off
side. Then pal Torres punishes usfor a bit of poor defending, you
know, I mean, we've gotthree left backs in defense. You know,

(18:17):
it's it's it he you know,he headed that one in. Then
I think where the game really changesin that first half is when Matty Cash
does bent to Kerr because I thoughtBent and Kerr was running the show.
What about you, rich, Yeah, yeah, very much so. And
of course now we've latterly learned thathe's out again until well after the New
year, isn't he On the backof this? I mean, Matty Cash

(18:41):
is a dirty bustard. He shouldnever be allowed near a football pitch.
He's always doing this kind of thing. I don't understand why referees are not
harder on him for it. Youknow, why is he not why has
he not got a disciplinary record thatmakes, you know, Roy Keane look
like a saint because he's going throughpeople like this. He's a sloppy,
malicious, horrible player and I can'tstand him. And yeah, Ont comes

(19:03):
back from this terrible injury that's kepthim out for what seven months, you
know, and it's what is hisfirst start, is second game back,
is the third time on the pitchor whatever it is, and and and
again he's out for three months nowbecause of this, and yeah, you
can see it sort of collectively takethe wind out of everybody's sales. You

(19:25):
know, it's happening again, likewe've got another one. And I thought,
you know, one of the reasonsthey were bringing in var and the
way that they were now managing gameswas because they wanted to see teams play
more football. And you know,we're the epitome of that. We we
are, you know, a totalfootball type of side. And of course
other teams realize that those are thesort of players we've got. So if

(19:49):
they can't compete with that, whichclearly aston Villa weren't competing with that.
You boot us out the game,now, okay, that's that's going to
be that that's going to be partof it. But then we the protection
you can't have, like we've hadthis run of injuries because we're playing a
certain way and teams understand what youdo now is you boot them. You
know, you injure them, youput reducers on them, and then you

(20:12):
disrupt the way that they're playing.And it does it stop starts the game,
it breaks our momentum, and youend up with, as we've had
recently, some now long term injuriesbecause people have gone in on our most
creative like Madison, they've done himbent and Kerr done him vand of Art

(20:33):
well that's you know that that thatcould be probably you know v a R's
fault because of going cold. Butbut you can see that they're going in
on our players to try and youknow, to hopefully for them to disrupt
to the way we play. Nowthat's going to be part of the game.
But they but we've got to We'vegot but we've got to be looked
after. You can't you can't havethat. I mean that clearly you could

(20:56):
see how incensed Bent and Kerr was. He wasn't having none of the apology
for Matty Cash at all. Andhe and he and he just got a
yellow I mean if it doesn't youknow, I think his manager took him
off because he knew that he wasa red card waiting waiting to happen.
Yeah. But yeah, he's doneless. Yeah yeah, yeah, your

(21:19):
your work here has done. Mattgo and have a nice early bath and
arrest. You know, put yourlegs up because because you've done what I've
asked you to do. And youknow this is it is a typical way
Villa are playing. I mean,Villa are getting a lot of plaud It
is because obviously you know, they'rehigh up in the table now I've taken
they've gone above us into fourth Ithink now after the back of this weekend,

(21:41):
and and you know they're getting alot of plaud it's because of the
improvement, you know, I meanthey were a fucking clown show under Steven
Gerrard, you know, so hehas picked up a lot of points.
They've they've got you know, theform is good and whatever, you but
if you watch and play, theyare a smash and grab side. What
they do is they go in hardand turn you over and score a lot
of goals on the break. Yeah. Even Homely do this, you know,

(22:03):
and so one of the best inEurope at it apparently. Yeah.
Yeah, And this is this isthis is fundamentally a part of the DNA
of that approach to the game isthat you have to go in HD to
turn the play over quickly. Andwhy they're not being managed out of it
by referees, I don't know,because because the referees must know when they
come to a Villa game that thereis gonna be a lot of studs flying

(22:26):
about m But I meant no exactly. I mean, I've got no problem
with you know, the game beingtough and hard at some times, but
he's got to be fair. Butwhen when it's reckless, which that was
because you know, he's done hisligaments there and that's not the first time.
By the way, Matty Cash obviously, as we know, did dirty
the time before and he was outfor months and probably killed his Spurs career

(22:48):
for him. You know this,this isn't right that you know, players
are able to get away with basicallyputting other players out for months on end.
Because they want to win that game. You know, it's a physical
game. I get that, butit shouldn't be you know, at the
detriment of that at that player's career, because that's what that's happening in poor

(23:12):
Ben and co. I mean,look, you know, he's had what
eight nine months out and he's goingto be out for another two and a
half months, practically a whole yearout of the game for that player because
of some you know, some terriblechallenges that people put in on it.
Challenges, yeah, exactly, Imean, you know, and I mean
the argument against it is this is, like you say, yes, you

(23:32):
know, the game is physical,and we all like a physical game.
I was, you know, Iwas extremely pleased with the way the Fulham
game was refereed, for instance,you know where you know, and that
was allowed to go and it wasallowed to be physical, and the referee
didn't stop the game every two minutesto pull it back, and that that
was a really good example I thinkof how they should be refereeing the game

(23:52):
like this to allow it to flow. And of course, you know,
it kind of put the kibosh ona lot of Fulham's taxed in the same
way that it should have done howyou have done it properly against Villa.
You know that they came to Rocks, you know, so I'm not against
the game being physical either, butyou know this, the thing is,
they're supposed to be elite athletes andthey're supposed to be elite professionals. They're

(24:15):
supposed to be able to play football, and all my cash seems to be
able to do is leather the ballfor eighteen yards out and kick people.
Yeah, yeah, you know yeah, And if that's all you can do,
should you even be fucking there.I don't know quite what we need
to do about it, because Ithink we need to find a way to
adapt, because clearly what the tacticfrom others is that they realized we moved

(24:40):
the ball quickly, and we playthat, you know that really aggressive.
You know, the attack is thebest one with defense for us, clearly,
but you know, the way todefeat that is to just basically kick
us. Chelsea did it. Theykicked us out of the game, and
we probably have to find a wayto adapt. But but also we also
need some help from the authorities tokind of get rid of that, because

(25:04):
that shouldn't be a legitimate tactic tokick a team out of the game and
injure them and take their best playersout of it by injuring them. That's
not you know, that's not right, but it seems to be the way
at the moment. Well, Iknow, and I mean, you know,
I think it's right. I think, but I mean I think there

(25:26):
is a way around it, andthere is a way around it without sort
of sacrificing the ideals and the wayof play. You know. I've got
to say, although I don't likesaying nice things about that lockdown the road,
I'm not going to say something niceabout them, it's all right,
but people have been trying to dothat to them for the last two or
three years, you know, andin general they found a way to play
round it. I mean, theone thing you can say about Woolwich is

(25:49):
you can kick them and kick themand kick them, but they'll still score
goals and mostly they'll still beat Yeah. So I don't think it's the case
that it's like, oh, well, Angie's football isn't going to survive in
the Premier League because people have beentrying to kick Manchester City out of games
for the last ten years as well, and they you know, the irony
that Chelsea did it to us becauseof course that was the tactic that people

(26:10):
employed against us when Poch was themanager, was that twenty seventeen. You
know, up to eighteen, whatwe saw when people were successful in taking
points off us was that they werebooting us out the game and interrupting our
flow of play. And then youknow, of course, you know,
Pochettino's thought, well that's how youstopped Tottenham then, and that's how you

(26:30):
stop Tottenham now, you know,I think there is a way around it.
I think, I don't know.I mean, I think it will
be a lot better, a loteasier to deal with when we do have
at least two fit center ARBs.I know, you know, obviously obviously
Romero is suspended and not injured,but you know, I mean, if

(26:53):
we get once we get Mickey vanDerven back, and once Romero is on
the pitch and hopefully learns a bitof majority, then I think actually the
net effect of being kicked out ofthe game will be different because we will
be more solid at the back anyway. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I
mean, like I say, itis solvable, and I don't think we

(27:15):
should change tactics. I think we'vejust got to be a bit cleverer about
about that way. And you know, teams do learn to cope with you
know, when you've got flair playersthen being kicked out the game. Modris
could do it, you know,and put people trying to kick him all
over the shop and he, youknow, he managed to cope with it,
exactly. And he's about three footfour high and about six done went

(27:36):
through, you know, And ifhe can do it, and then there's
no reason why why others got Imean we've seen it with Sun for years.
People are forever trying to kick Soneyout of a game, and for
the most part, he still managesto contribute or score, you know,
even if he doesn't get much ofthe play. I mean, Harry Kane
was was the epitome of it.You know. For the last nine years,

(27:56):
people have put two people on himand just booted him left right and
said and shoved him over and kickedhim up the back and run their studs
down him. And yet he's managedto find a way to play around it
and to still beat them. Soit's amountable, is it. Yeah?
Okay? And then towards the endof the first half, Sun gets the
first of his hat trick. Yes, of offside goals, it was a

(28:22):
lovely goal. Oh, I meanit was a beauty of a goal that
classics On sort of bent it intothe sort of far corner, lovely runner
play and had everyone off their seatsforgetting that. You know. Obviously var
you know, could intervene here anddid and you know, and yeah,
but it was it was a beauty. Yeah. So yeah, like you

(28:48):
said, classics On, isn't itwhen you see him shape up like that,
you know where what's happening? Yeah, yeah, I think a beauty.
Shame it didn't stand. And thenwe go into the second half and
Son gets his second offside goal anotherabsolutely a lovely goal as well, and
yeah, that one's off as well. Again, I've looked at them and
I thought they are so close,and I think, you know, at

(29:11):
this point, you know, we'reyou know, I know, the game
kind of it started to turn whenBenton Kerr went off, because I thought
we still coped all right, buthe was he was the conductor, you
know, he really looked so readyfor the game. But you know,
it was one way traffic. Ithink we were just kind of running away

(29:34):
with it at that point, butyou know, it was one one.
As we go into the second half, then's the static defending Watkins was to
be fair, was well taken goal. I think Telaman's passed it to him
and he sort of low, sortof left hand side of the goal,
shoots and the courier can't get downto it. Nicely taken goal, but

(29:59):
we again, we still we stillgo at it. I think the second
half we you know, we losta bit of momentum. We weren't we
weren't quite as good as the firsthalf, but we were still making chances.
That Poro hits the upright and Sontaps it in for his hat trick
offside goals. And at this pointI'm just thinking, this is not going
to be our day, is it? It just had it just had that
feeling. You could feel the sortof crowds sucking the energy out of the

(30:23):
crowd because we've done everything. Youknow, so has scored a hat trick
of offside goals. We'd hit thepost and several times it just felt like
one of those days it was,and it was yeah, and I don't
think we could have played another hourand we wouldn't have scored it go after
that. Yeah, and it's Imean, it is frustrating, isn't it.
You know? I mean I always, you know, I'm very wary

(30:45):
of a conspiracy, you know,I always think, you know, well,
it is what it is. Youknow, you did. It was
one of them games when you justthought the fucking gods are against us,
like you know, like you likelike Viccario could dribble it out of his
own fucking penalty area all the wayup to pitch and score and they'd find
a way a bloody you know,at that point, you know, there's

(31:06):
nothing you do. You just godo you know what fucking have it?
We might as well just go home. At this point, it's like,
you know, we've seen it beforeand we because you just get that feeling.
It's like the ones where their keeperfor the first time has an absolute
blinder, plays a masterclass for theonly game of the season where they save
every single thing that comes their way, and we should be about eight clear.

(31:30):
It's like one of those games.You know, we'd hit the upright
twice, we'd you know, scoreda hat trick above side goals we had,
I mean, a doggie should haveput us in front earlier on as
well. I mean it could havebeen an absolute smashing and they did a
smash and grab. They did theirjob, you know, let let's face
it against a makeshift defense. Butlike you said at the beginning, which

(31:53):
it really almost very much worked,and I think what we should do just
quickly. It's just that kind ofdiscuss, that approach to the game and
the sort of fallout of how peopleare kind of I think getting a bit
over nervous about what's happening after threelosses. Yeah, I mean, never
let it be said that football fansare a fickle bunch and Spurs fans,

(32:15):
especially on the internet, have ahabit of losing their asses really early.
But you know, you can seeit happening. There's a lot of people
that are going, oh my god, you know this hasn't worked, and
it's you know, the word naivecomes out, and you know, and
then of course the people that arerelishing the opportunity to use it as a
stick to beat Daniel Levy because hehasn't bought two squads of first team players.

(32:37):
You know, I think you've gotto go back to what he said
in August. It's going to bea bumpy ride. Yeah, and he's
at the beginning of the journey.We had ten games right where it went
better than we expected. Everybody's baselineshifted, and everybody goes, well,
it's all right, We're going towin the fucking league. Now egged on

(32:57):
by idiots on podcasts saying saying,we're going to fucking win everything, you
know, right, And of courseyou get this collective hysteria that's sort of
like, you know, the echochamber of it all, where we're all
really enthusiastic and we're all just sorelieved that we're not watching Antonio Conte every
week. You know that we getcarried away by it. And the reality

(33:22):
is we are at the fucking beginningof it, and and and and at
the end of the day, it'sgonna it is going to be that bumpy
ride. And I keep thinking,I can't remember where it was now.
I mean, it might even havebeen when I was still on Twitter.
Somebody screenshotted a Celtic fan comment andput it on there, and I think

(33:45):
it was and it was like,you know, when he came to Celtic,
you know, I went and lookedback at his career because I didn't
know anything about him, you know, he said, and you see,
you have these issues to start with, and and and suddenly it all seems
to be going wrong. And thenand then one day and it will be
a game that you don't expect itto be. You will just give somebody

(34:07):
the seeing too that they have neverhad. And from that point you don't
look back. And I keep thinkingabout that and keep thinking, we haven't
had that game yet. We haven'tgot that point yet. And yes,
we might have been falled into thinkingthat we had had that game because it
had all gone so well. Buthe is only what twelve fourteen games into

(34:27):
his managerial career at Birds. Youknow, absolutely people have got to shut
the fuck up and just hold onfor a bit because it's gonna be fine.
Yeah, yeah, absolutely mate.And I think you know, you've
got those three losses about the seasonand we're not having this meltdown. It's
only because I think it's three onthe bounce, and it is a difficult
run of fixtures, and it's anunprecedented run of injuries. And yes,

(34:50):
I know some people go well,loads of clubs have got injuries, loads
of club haven't lost their five bestplayers. I mean we've got after today,
after this weekend just gone, We'vegot ten ten out, haven't we?
At the moment, including the suspensions, we might even be lucky to
named fourteen players than at Folk City. Yeah. So we got ten of
the first sixteen that are either injuredor suspended. Yeah, you know great,

(35:13):
other teams have got injuries too.Show me anybody that's going to bring
ten. I mean if you taketen people out of Liverpool's first sixteen squad,
let alone five of their best players, yeah exactly. You know,
City possibly can cope with it betterthan most. You know, I mean
you take two players out of ManUnited side and they look like a fucking

(35:34):
pub team. Yeah yeah, Imean now, I mean I thought the
overall approach to that game was furtherproof of our identity to me, I
mean, that's what we're looking for, right. This is one of the
things that we wanted to say,that what who are we as a club?
And it was, like I thinkI said on Twitter, like it
was like the embodiment of Auderesvasa.You know, we went for it,

(35:58):
We had a good go and itvery nearly looked we with our full team
we would have slaughtered anyone. Buteven without we still have our identity,
our principles that we're sticking to.Why you know, which manager really has
a plan? B? Tell meyou know that that there aren't any managers
really that have that have a plan. B. That most people have their
style that they stick to and hopefullyyou've got the you know, the squad

(36:22):
and players to do that. Ifif if Villa end up losing a few
players are they're going to change theirgame? But no they're not. They're
going to play the same way,playing the counter attacking style. You know,
this is our philosophy, this isour identity, and this is what
we're sticking with, and we're tryingto bring players in to play that because
in the long game, again,looking at this in the microcosm, you

(36:42):
know you've got a few win losinglosses, sorry, and that you know
that that upsets people, of courseit does. But when you what we're
looking at is the bigger picture hereis that you know, what are we
building towards? What what is ouridentity? What do people what people are
going to say about us? Andactually in general, probably our fans are
harsher on us at the moment thanopposition fans who you know, can can

(37:06):
see that identity, can see thatbrave approach to the way we play,
and I think it, you know, it does win, you know,
admiring audiences. And I think,like Ange was saying, once we get
our players back and again once westart building, because I think in January
and summer we are going to build, we are going to be an incredible
team to watch, which is youknow, one of the hallmarks of a

(37:28):
Spur side, but also an incredibleteam in terms of how we're going to
be. I think feared and played, you know, how we're going to
play, and I think it willyou know, in the end, it
will be fine. It's just atthe moment it's not so good. And
you you've got to understand that you'vegot five key players that would walk into

(37:50):
our team that are not there atthe moment that that's going to have a
fallout. So, you know,suddenly naive comments, I don't agree with
that. Some fans and media startingto kind of say, well, and
needs to change this. No hedoesn't. What does that say to the
players if we start changing it,It says that he doesn't really believe in
that. And also the thing thateverybody was saying at the start of the

(38:15):
season was they just wanted to watchentertaining football, right, Is that not
what we geted exactly? Yeah,you know, I mean yes, Like
if if you wanted, if youwhat you actually wanted was to win everything,
right, then say I just wantto win everything. But everybody that
I've spoken to, and everybody aroundthe club that I know, and everybody

(38:37):
you know that you encounter, says, oh, go back to the summer.
I just wanted to be entertaining.I just want to enjoy going to
football again. I just wanted tolook forward to seeing Spurs play, right,
because it's been so boring, soslow, so stayed so uninventive,
right, and the thing that we'vegot is entertaining football. And even though

(38:59):
we one Saturday it was entertaining,yeah, you know, I mean it
would have been far more entertaining withoutvar if we'd have won that game four
fucking for one of the two,you know, right, that would have
been far more entertaining. But westill did put the ball in the back
of the net four times that day, right, with this, with this,
with this thrown together side, right, we still outplayed them. We

(39:21):
still like they everybody said afterwards,and look at the newspaper reports and look
at the punditary and everything that comesafter it that says aston Villa did a
smash and grab. That tells youall you need to know about whether or
not we're doing the right thing.And fans should have the strength of their
own convictions to say I wanted entertainingfootball. I cannot expect to be entertained

(39:46):
and for the not to be riskespecially when we've got huge amounts of injuries.
And I think people need to actuallystop listening to the likes of Gary
fucking Neville and Carriger and all theseother people you know that are coming and
going, oh, you know,you know, Spurs might need to do
this a bit differently and do thata bit differently. And it's only because

(40:06):
they never played in a side thatwas as ventive as this, you know,
you know, they they never torethe rule book up, they never
did it differently. They terrifies themto see the game evolving because they want
to be able to talk about thegame they understand, and you know,
and Neville's management record was impeccable,wasn't it. Well, Nevill's record are

(40:27):
talking shit is impeccable, you know, I mean, like everybody, we
should by default ignore everything that fuckerever says. Ever again, just for
him going and playing golf with AarryKaine and saying, oh, why don't
you leave Tottenham? Yeah, yeah, I mean the thing is, I
would have had no faith in thoseplayers or any of the other players to
be honest, to sit and youknow, pack the defense and try and

(40:51):
stifle the life out of the gameand maybe Nicka you know, a point
or a win playing that style offort Well, we had no confidence in
who we've got personal we've got tobe able to do that anyway. So
attack is the best form of defensein this case. And like we said
again, all right, and youknow he's always buts of maybes, but
but it nearly worked. But themost important thing from my point of view

(41:14):
is you could clearly see the philosophyand the way. And that's all we
wanted. I mean, I saidat the beginning of the season. I'm
sure you said it as well.One of the things that we're going to
put pound in sweaar jar here thatwe liked about Pochettino was that you could
see an identity emerging and that's whywe held our nerve when some of the
results weren't great with him at thebeginning. And I think likewise, at

(41:35):
the moment, at the moment,it could get worse before it gets better.
I mean, I seeing the purpleand goldlot at the moment kind of
like rubbing their hands together. Andyou know they love a bit of fucking
misery. Well, yeah, misery. They're addicted to it, and they're
looking for an excuse to restart thistheir agenda. Okay, never be happy
unless so much going wrong. Theynever genuinely never be happy if we went

(41:58):
on fucking won the Cup and didall you know, ship miracles for the
rest of the season. I stillfinds some of the fucking moan about because
that's quakes them happy. Yeah,and listen, I mean I get I
get the grievance in the sense that, you know, we probably should have
invested more, but it's very hardto do them. And I mean I've
heard this said, but we actuallydid quite a lot in the summer.

(42:19):
We brought in what seven or eightnew players. You can't you can't bring
in ten twelve players. That justit's straight away off the bat, because
it doesn't work. You've got toyou've got to grow the team. And
yes, maybe we should have gotanother defender, and you know, yes
we should have got a striker,but we're going to address that. And
like Anne said, at the veryclear, even in the good times when

(42:42):
we were winning, he says,look, you know, this is great,
but we are in a process,and we are at the beginning of
the process, and we are rebuildingthis team. You know, like you
said as well, you know,if you're not under siege, you're waiting
to be under siege. That's wherethey find themselves at the moment. And
I think we've got to back him, and we've got to back the players.

(43:05):
We don't need people who are thenlooking for excuses to post pictures and
memes and look at this CNX Tuesdaywith pictures of Levy looking like a loser
and all this kind of stuff isproblematic. It's not helpful, you know,
attacking the team or the players orthe manager. Actually, you know,

(43:27):
there's three losses on the bounce becauseof a set of circumstances because we
are quite light. We have tobe quite light because we're not in Europe.
Yeah, well yeah, and that'sthe other thing. About bringing players
in, like, how many elite, top layer level players are you going
to be able to draft in thatare going to be able to walk into
a team that has been top ofthe league and expect to come in as

(43:50):
an injury replacement after not playing youknow, a huge amount of games club
or in the first team and stepinto that role. How many and m
players are you going to bring inwithout the promise of Champions League football or
even Europa League football for that,you know, I mean, especially at
the beginning of a tenure of whatis essentially an unproved manager in the league.

(44:12):
Yes, he was able to persuadeJames Madison, but we know that
he actually had to do that,that he had to sit him down and
say, look mate, you knowyou've got to believe in me that I
can do this. Right. Sothe part of this establishing, this establishing
this new normal for Tottenham is havingthis identity so that players that are potential
signings can see, Okay, yeah, that is a club that I could

(44:32):
go and play for. That isa team that I could play and that's
fun. I'll earn a load ofmoney. It's a great stadium, It's
in London, blah blah blah.Right, without Champions League football, if
all of those other things are unknown, who the fuck is going to sign?
Right? You know? So,so I think we've done quite well
in the summer, and I thinkyou have to look at it like that
and say, yeah, you know, this short run that we've had is

(44:55):
going to be gold dust when itcomes to recruiting players in January, because
he's going to be able to sayand now you can see what we do.
Now you can see what my Tottenhamlook like. And I've already shown
that I can take this fledglingside tothe top of the league. Why don't
you come and join us and wecould stay there. And that's a much
more potent persuasive argument for a playerwho might also be getting offers from clubs

(45:19):
around us that are similar sizes,playing similar wages, are probably better wages
in a lot of places, andhave European football to offer them, you
know. I mean, there's alwaysan excuse, but there's always an argument,
well, you should have done this, you should have done that,
you should have done the other.But ultimately, I think the most healthy
thing that you can do for thesevoices is just disengaged with them because they

(45:42):
never offer you anything. They neveroffer you an alternative solution. They talk
about the change of ownership of theclub, but they don't know who or
what the new ownership will look like. You know, It's like the newspapers
and whatever it is. Misery istraction. So whenever the Spurs are,
you know, in crisis, that'snewspaper. And lots of the other podcasts
are getting more and more people listeningbecause or people phoning in for things because

(46:06):
you know, people often will revelin that. But the thing is,
you know, okay, we've hadno wins in November. But the but
I you know, and maybe thingswill get worse before they get better.
I mean again, we still gotWe've got a while to some of those
players come back. So I thinkwe just have to understand that and understand
that, Okay, we probably wecould lose against City, we could lose

(46:30):
against you know, Newcastle and evenwest Ham. But the point is is
the bigger picture, it's not gonnamatter. No, it's not gonna matter,
you know, And ultimately, Ithink we're going to have a cracking
second half the season one because youknow, our players will be back but
of course we will recruit again andthen we will just be that bit further

(46:50):
down the line, and I thinkwe'll have a strong end to the season.
I think, you know, wehave to be a bit wary because
we do have Afcon coming up inthe new year and we're going to lose
some key players. So I thinkJanuary recruitment will be done with that in
mind. Yeah, we're going tohave players back. It will look different.
But you know, of course,you know we're going to lose players

(47:10):
to have gone. All of thetop sides in the Premier League are going
to lose pla to have gone,so everybody that matters is going to be
reduced in capacity somewhat. I think. I think the learning curve is huge,
and I think I think it doeslook bright. I think it don't
matter. I think come Christmas it'lllook different. We will have picked up

(47:31):
a couple of wins. We mightscrape a difficult drawer era there, we
might get shown up. I meanwest Ham are going to come and it's
their Cup final, so you knowthey're going to do what they do every
time and show up and probably kickus all over the pitch all over again.
You know, so we have tobe aware of this stuff coming.
And of course, the you know, the more more persuasive of the doommongers

(47:52):
are saying, well, look,you know, look what happens next month,
and look what happens after that,and the difficult games keep coming.
But that and it's true. Theproblem is you can't argue against it.
We're not in an easy league now. But no matter, we're not listening
rich. If we played like ifhe changedes adapted, as some people say,
he's got to adapt, he changeshis style, we play much more

(48:15):
defensive lineup with defenders that we don'thave, and we get battered or we
get beaten. They're going to sayhe should have stuck to his principles.
Yeah, you know, you're nevergoing to win anyway, so he may
as well. You know that thatyou know, this is his way,
this is our way, and youknow, yes, it's it could be

(48:35):
a little bit ugly at the moment, but we're we're building something, not
for now, we're building something forthe future. And I still think,
you know, at the end ofthe day, despite this, you know
this, you know, bump inthe road if you want to call it,
that, that will be Okay,at the end of the season,

(48:57):
I still think we'll be in agreat shout for top five and hopefully,
you know, a great running theCup as well. It's no reason why
those things still can't happen, despiteyou know, a few losses at the
moment. So you know, Ifeel okay. Things at the moment are
not so good, but I stillfeel positive and hopeful about where this project

(49:21):
is going, and I still havefull faith in what he's trying to do,
despite you know, the naysayers inthe media or the old fashioned view
of looking at things, despite maybewhat some of our rivals are saying to
to, you know, to mockus about him being you know, naive,
et cetera, and he might beable to do this in Japan,

(49:42):
that that's nonsense. Once we getour personnel back once more, we are
going to be a force to bereckoned with. Yeah, I think everything
you say is right, you know, And I don't either way, because
I don't listen to them nay sayers. In my opinion on Spurs is based

(50:04):
entirely on what I watch them andwhat I see with my own eyes,
you know, And so you know, I mean, this is why I
don't engage in the online discourse anymore. I mean, yes, I come
on this podcast and we chat andI tell people my opinions. I don't
know what happens in the comments becauseI don't read them. I'm not and
it's not because I don't think anybodyelse's opinion is valid. But I just

(50:25):
don't think it affects. It's notgoing to affect what I say, no,
no, or what I think.You know. So so I think
you know, ex players that Sherwoodand Genus and and hard or and people
that sticking the booting and thinking yeah, but you have to think though they've
all got mortgages to pay or whathave you. You know they've all got

(50:46):
they all need to work, right, They're not going to get work if
they come on and go. Aren'tSpurs pretty? Aren't they lovely to watch?
Because all people will say is,well, that's an next Tottenham player
being nice about Tottenham, like yousay, cells will get fucking Jason Cundy
on instead because he's always good fora runt, or will you We'll get
starting to come on and lay theboot in because anybody but Tottenham. Chris

(51:08):
has always got somebody at something he'sbeen quite kind. Actually, well he
was kind after the Chelsea game.I mean even he's saying, Christ,
you know, the only team thatcomes out of this game with any with
any credit is Tottenham, and thatI mean I nearly you know, like
what what you know? Record scratch? Who said that? You know?
But at the end of the day, it don't It don't matter what any

(51:30):
of these people say. They've allgot a vested interest in having their opinions,
and to their opinions are no morevalid than yours or mine. Even
if they are ex professionals, don'tmean they know anything. You know,
like I fixed machinery as part ofmy work, But it doesn't mean that
I could go and advise Ferrari tobuild a fucking sports car. Yeah yeah,
yeah, absolutely mate. Anyways,to waste no more breath and all

(51:52):
that crap. Let's look ahead toCity next. Who can we play?
He thought some predictions on this game. Well, I think we'll who have
we got left? Yeah? Literally, as I said we could. We
could be fourteen to fifteen fit players. That's it mate, you know,

(52:14):
so you know, I think Ithink we'll have a good We'll have a
good go at it. I thinkwe're going to be playing those three left
backs in defense again. But likeyou know, it nearly worked. It's
going to be attack is the bestform of defense again. Yeah, I
think it's the only way. Know, he's shown that that's the only way

(52:35):
you can approach it. I thinkyou've seen the two variations on it recently
in the last two games. Isthat he tried the alternative approach a bit
more against Wolves, and the sameold problems arose. He's tried something different
against Villa. It wasn't particularly successful, but we looked a lot better,
So I think we know which waywe're going to go. I'd love to
see us go to City and havea go out. I remember a few

(52:57):
years ago when we went up thereand lost, and everybody's said it was
the end of the world. Soldadohad a penalty saved. I think it
was one. All Solo had apenalty saved, and they immediately went down
and scored one and then scored andwe ended up losing three one, and
every oh my god, it's terrible. Spurs got played off the pitch.
But actually I thought, I rememberwatching that game and thinking I can see
something happening here, and it wasquite a good litmus test. And we

(53:21):
came away from that after that resultand our performances improved even though we'd lost
that day, and that sticks inmy mind as being a good loss.
You can't lose well, you canlearn things from from a defeat. And
if we're going to go up thereand expect to lose, and I think
going up there and saying we're goingto beat them on their own turf is
naive, you know that even withthe full team, even the full team,

(53:45):
it's a big ask, you know, So you know, I think
we have to be a bit realisticabout it and say we're looking, you
know, we're going to be luckyto come away from there with anything,
you know, And of course that'sgoing to fuel the fires even more.
But but you know, I thinkif we go up there and have a
good guns and at least don't dothe parking the bus bit and getting picked

(54:06):
apart like that, then there's thenthere is respecting that, then there's turning
up and saying we've come to havea game of football. Yeah, I
mean, you know, like wherewe are at the moment, with everything
that's happening, this isn't a benchmark. For us, this game, this
is you know, this this isone to you know, do the best
that we can, and you knowwe're most likely we'll lose this. Who

(54:28):
knows, I mean, anything canhappen, because you know, in a
game of football, literally the mostsurprising things can happen. But I suspect
that probably giving up personnel that Harlem, probably Hammer, Royale and Davies,
I'm afraid and I think you know, we're probably I'm going to say we'll
probably lose this one three one,but you just never know. You never

(54:49):
know. I mean, you know, if the gods are with us on
the day, we've seen it happen, Strange things can happen. I think
the best we could hope for wouldbe a draw. But I'm suspecting this
is another loss. Let's get thisone out of the way and then I
think we can We've got a coupleof games at home we can look forward
to. Yeah, I mean,I think the Newcastle and west Ham games

(55:12):
are going to be entirely different animalsregardless of what the personnel are. Romero
will be back. Yeah, Romerowill be back, you know, and
that'll be massive. And let's justhope he's learned a fucking lesson this time.
Yeah, yeah, you know aboutlosing his head. So prediction mate,
give us a score. But forMan City, yeah, I think
we lose three to one as well, and I think it's done well if

(55:34):
we come away from it only losingthree one, Yeah, considerably, we've
got to the back. I thinkfour or five one is equally as likely.
I'll just be happy if we havea go out on yeah, same
same. Yeah, that's not beingnegative or anything like that. I mean,
it's just being pragmatic and realistic.But like I said, you never
know. If if we get adraw, I'm breaking out the whiskey.

(55:55):
Well yeah, I mean I thinkI think, you know, we go
there expecting to lose, but beingoptimistic of a victory. And that's and
that's what you that's all you canever do. This is a billion pound
team and multi billion pound club,you know. I mean, this is
a way way into their project aswell, with one of the best managers
in the tea in the world andprobably at the moment, the current top

(56:15):
side in the world. Yeah,and I mean, you know, we're
a club that can't even field theliving first team players at the moment.
So you know, pessimism or optimismhave got no part to play in it.
We just go up there and weturn up and we and we and
we stand up and we try andwe have a go and then we come
away and go. We had togo out and that's all we do.

(56:35):
And you know how many times sorryRich to cut you there, but how
many times over the years have wesaid that at least just have a go,
you know, you know, Andthat's one of the criticisms we've set
we've had of the last three managersreally under you know, Conte, Nuno
and Maurinho, is at times we'vejust laid down and died. We've not
we've not really had a go andthat's all we want, you know.

(56:59):
And you come, hello high water, you may as well have a fucking
go. Yeah, yeah, absolutely, that's it. So yeah, that's
that's that's what I think we'll do, and I think we will have a
go at them and I think peoplewill call it, call it naive,
But what ultimately is going to bethe alternative, like you say, laying
down and dying and we all knowhow that ends. Yeah, exactly,

(57:21):
okay, mate, Well on thathopefully once more it's a little bit more
therapy for everyone. From where we'reat, good times will be coming again.
They're not far around the corner andcome when you spurs, you know
there's no place on it. Iwould I wouldn't want to be right here.

(57:44):
And you know, in this minuteof trying to bring success to one
of the biggest football clubs in theworld, the basic handerate line principles.
So you'll want my team to playfootball that scares the life out of every
opposition. That's that's one of theend game.