August 27, 2024 • 75 mins
Vic interviews Liz Flatt about the murder of her sister Deborah Sue Williamson. The murder was originally pinned on Henry Lee Lucas, but through the efforts of her family (Bob and Joyce Lemons) they were able to play a big part in exposing the hoax the Texas Rangers had created. Although Deborah's murder is still unsolved it is positively know that the culprit wasn't Henry Lee Lucas.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
This is The Vic Fizzelle Show podcast hosted by Vick
Fazzelle and Jonathan Zimick, sponsored by Moroso Wood Fired Pizzeria
and Pinewood Coffee Roasters. Hi, I'm Vic Fazzelle, and welcome
to another episode of the Vic Fazzel Podcast. I'm here
(00:25):
with my co host, Jonathan Zimck, and we have an
exciting episode for you today. I've been looking forward to
this one, actually, Jonathan and I and somebody else. Can
I mention her Antonio. She's our new editor and we've
been working on this for one year and they am
something like that when we first interviewed our special guest,
(00:49):
Liz Flatt, and I'm so excited to be able to
tell you about Liz Flatt. Liz Flatt is the daughter
of Bob and Joyce limits Bob and Joyce Lemons were
so critical to the Henry Lee Lucas grand jury. They
are the parents of Devasue Williamson. Liz Flat was Deverah
(01:11):
Sue's sister. Deborah Sue Williamson was murdered and her murder
was one of the bogus murders that was pinned on
Henry Lee Lucas by his bogus confessions taken by the
Texas Rangers. You've heard us talk about that a lot,
but Liz was interviewed by us. She tells you what
her mom and dad went through. Both of them are
(01:33):
dead now, but I knew them well. They came to
nearly every day of my criminal trial. After I was
indicted and went on trial in Austin. They appeared before
my grand jury on the Lucas matter more than once.
And one time when Colonel Jim Adams called a press
conference down in Austin to call me a liar and
(01:55):
call Attorney General gem Maaddos a liar and call our
grande circus, Bob and Joyce Lemons were there, and when
he finished his press conference, they stood up and had
a press conference of their own and basically called him
a liar. And everything that Bob and Joyce said has
been proven out. Bob went all over the country spending
(02:17):
his own money tracking Henry Lucas's whereabouts from the time
he got out of prison in Maryland until he was
arrested and put in jail in Monte County. It's very
very interesting, and it's a story that's still going on.
Liz started talking on other podcasts. The media got a
hold of her and then, like so many times, the
(02:40):
media can turn on you. And she had some people
doing a podcast who actually turned on her. And Liz
was only eight or ten years old at the time
of this murder. She was a little girl, and this
podcast totally turned on her because they she wouldn't do
what they wanted her to do to monetize their podcast.
So I feel sorry sorry for My heart goes out
(03:01):
to her for a lot of reasons. But she's a
tough lady and you're gonna like her. We like her,
We love her a lot. We're going to start out
by playing you just a little snippet from a Dallas
news program from a sometime shortly after the murder, not
too many years after Tracy Rallit is the one that's
(03:24):
doing it from Channel light up in Dallas. Some of
you may remember Jonathan and I talking about him back
when we soon Channel eight because of what they had
said about me and got me indicted and put me
on trial and one of the largest libel verdict in
the history of the United States. My lawyer was Gary
(03:45):
Richardson matter of fact, this past Monday, Gary stopped by
to visit me. We got to say hi and hug
each other. I hadn't seen him in years. So hey
Gary Richardson, if you're listening to this, so thank you
for being here today. One thing I want to add too,
is that we still have some of those bumper stickers.
(04:06):
Be a thinker, use your blinker. If you don't like
the way other people are driving, you think they ought
to be using their blinker. Send us a self addressed
stamped envelope to the vict Gazelle podcast three three oh
two West Waco Drive, Waco, Texas, seven sixty seven one
oh and we will send you absolutely free one of
(04:27):
our bumper stickers. Be a thinker, us your blinker. Thanks.
I'm Victa Zelle.
Speaker 2 (04:35):
I know Lucas didn't kill my daughter, and I can't
let it just be closed. The murderer is still out
there and I want you found.
Speaker 3 (04:45):
It's a story Bob and Joyce Lemmons have told many
times since Henry Lee Lucas was indicted last May for
the murder of their eighteen year old daughter, Deborah Sue Williamson.
A newlywed, she lived in this house in Lubbock. The
night of August twenty fourth, nineteen seventy five, she was
brittally stabbed to death just outside the rear door of
her house. Lublic officials say Lucas is the killer, but
(05:07):
the Lemons have always insisted Lucas could not have done it.
But fewman authority listened until now. When the Lemons were
called from Lobock and told their daughter's murder had been solved.
Speaker 1 (05:17):
They were overjoyed.
Speaker 4 (05:19):
We were looking so forward to going out there seeing
this information, believe in it, going home and saying, thank god,
it's sober.
Speaker 2 (05:27):
You wouldn't believe the phone calls I made that night
telling you about We were.
Speaker 3 (05:33):
Happy finally, but that elation was short lived.
Speaker 4 (05:37):
District Attorney Jim Bob Darnell in Lubbock allowed us to
see Deborah's file, allowed us to hear the tape where
Henry supposedly directed George White and Jackie Peeples to the scene.
Speaker 1 (05:55):
This didn't happen.
Speaker 4 (05:57):
Henry Lucas never told them one direction hooking to the house,
and insisted that he must know about it.
Speaker 3 (06:05):
The Lemons made a written transcript of the tape. That
transcript indicates detectives stopped in front of Deborah's house on
eighty second Street, and Lubbock detective George White asked, does
that look familiar? Lucas replied, I don't know. The car
then turned left and stopped on the Avenue L side
(06:26):
of Deborah's house, and White asks, do you want to
look at that one again? Lucas replied, I guess it
won't hurt to quite turn around and go back to
that one. The car turns around and drives back to
Deborah's house. White asks you want to look at this
(06:46):
one here? Lucas replies, well, yeah, it looks familiar. It
was whiter than that and had a porch that changed
I guess, but at the time of the murder the
house was green. Lubbock District Attorney Jim Bob Darnell, here's
the tape evidence, and will not let reporters listen to
that tape. But he disputes the Lemon's transcript.
Speaker 5 (07:05):
I don't think it would be proper for me to
comment on the evidence. That is their conclusion. I disagree
with their conclusion.
Speaker 3 (07:14):
The Lemons say lucas confession also stated he entered the
house through the sliding glass door, but they say that
would have been impossible because there was a huge china
cabinet in front of that door. They also say Lucas
said that he killed her inside the house, murder actually
took place outside in the cardboard area. They say their
concerns fell on deaf ears and frustrated, they took their
(07:37):
story to the news media.
Speaker 5 (07:38):
And we attempted to communicate with them and provide them
with as much information that we thought was feasible as
far as letting them have peace of mind about the investigation.
And we provided information to them, gave them access to
looking at the file, and even allowed them to listen
to some tapes, which in hindsight might not have been
(08:01):
the best thing for us to do because we had
done it in good faith, and then he turned around
and now has tried to more or less try the
case in the news media.
Speaker 4 (08:10):
He was absolutely amazed when we came out that we
didn't believe all this now, and I could see that
he was serious about it. He was totally at all
because we didn't buy what he was trying.
Speaker 1 (08:23):
To sell us.
Speaker 2 (08:26):
He was very upset because we found something wrong with
the team.
Speaker 3 (08:29):
The Lemons say they have not been able to talk
to Darnell since in his office has refused to examine
other evidence they say proves Lucas did not kill Deborah,
another charge Darnell disputes.
Speaker 5 (08:40):
He has never directly given us any information. The only
information that we have gotten indirectly from him would be
through newspaper articles, TV interviews or publications where he has
provided them with information that he feels would be important
in the investigation, and we have taken that information and
(09:01):
tried to follow up on it.
Speaker 3 (09:02):
The Lemon's frustration prompted them to investigate the case themselves.
They've spent thousands of dollars of their own money following
the Lucas trail, checking records and talking to relatives. Michigan
prison records show Lucas was released August twenty second, nineteen
seventy five, a Friday. His relatives have told the Lemons
and Maryland investigators that Lucas arrived in Perryville, Maryland, by
(09:24):
bus on a Saturday, just after he got out of prison.
If that is the case, even Darnell admits the possibility
of Lucas killing Deborah on the twenty fourth would be unlikely,
but he says that prison record may not be accurate.
Speaker 5 (09:37):
We have never been told definitively exactly what date he
was released from the penitentiary. I would agree with you
that if he was released from the penitentiary on the
twenty second of August, that it would be very difficult
for him to be in Lubbock, Texas.
Speaker 4 (09:51):
Some two days.
Speaker 3 (09:52):
Later, Maryland Trooper Friend Dixon has sent reports to Lubbock
detectives on his investigation of lucas arrival and time spending Marria.
He says the relatives have no reason to lie.
Speaker 4 (10:04):
According to the relatives, he arrived here onor about August
the twenty third of nineteen seventy five from prison in Michigan.
Speaker 3 (10:13):
No one from Lubbock has gone to Maryland to check
out the relative's claims.
Speaker 5 (10:18):
As long as the authorities up there are willing to
cooperate with the authorities here, I don't feel that it's
necessary for the people here to go up there and
communicate with them.
Speaker 3 (10:29):
With the help of a police officer, the Lemons also
managed to get a graduation picture of Deborah shown to
Lucas by Carolyn Heabener of Texas Child Search. Hebener says
he did not recognize Deborah.
Speaker 6 (10:42):
I told him that her name was Debbie, and he said, no,
I've never seen her before. I'm not involved, and that
was the end of it. I called Jim bar Darnell's office.
They refused to talk to me. They had no no
interest in the evidence that I had. At that time.
Speaker 5 (11:04):
We talked with the Texas Rangers concerning that particular incident
in which Missus Schubner supposedly showed a stack is what
we were, totally stack of pictures of victims to determine,
and that they did not feel that anything that he
said during that period of time would be valid as
(11:26):
far as determining whether or not he was involved in
the death of her or anybody else.
Speaker 3 (11:30):
Lucas did identify Debra as a murder victim when Lubbock
detectives showed him Deborah's wedding picture, but since then, Lucas
has changed his story again. When investigative reporter Hugh Ainsworth
privately showed Lucas picture of Deborah, he denied involvement, marking
no on the back and his initials. The ten years
that have passed since Debora's murder have not been easy
(11:50):
for the Lemons. They say immediately after her murder, the
family was terrorized and were forced to flee their Buffalo
Lake home just outside of Loubbock.
Speaker 2 (11:59):
Starting with an out of Deb's murder. We had people
breaking into the house. We had threatening phone calls. The
school told us they couldn't protect our kids anymore, they
didn't want them there, and we'd be laying in bed
at night and someone would turn a key in our door.
(12:22):
And in order to save the two the girls' lives
really weed.
Speaker 3 (12:27):
The Lemons and their daughters fled to Gainesville just thirty
days after Deborah's death. They say their ordeal will never
be over until the real murderer is found.
Speaker 4 (12:36):
When you lose a child, it is very probably the
most devastating thing that can happen to you when you
lose one to murder. I think it's even more devastating
because you have all these questions in your mind about why, how,
questions that you can't answer. The scholars are there on
(12:59):
us and even more so on the two girls, and
they'll never go away. And it's changed our entire life.
Speaker 1 (13:08):
I knew Liz's mom and dad real well. We've been
talking about Bob and Joyce Lemons leading up to these episodes,
as we were talking about when the grand jury was
on break and everything that Colonel Jim Adams and Bob
Prince and those guys were doing to try to derail
our grand jury and using Mike Cox, that reporter who
(13:34):
is still with the Austin American Statesman at that time,
to just pepper us with all these negative articles. And
by the time the grand jury got back, we had
been on break over a week, maybe two weeks, and
by the time they got back, they had read so
many negative things that they had questions. And I'm so
(13:56):
grateful that Bob and Joyce were there on that first
day because all that grand jury had to do was
in here from Bob and Joyce and they were back
online right and they were ready to work again.
Speaker 3 (14:13):
So, Liz.
Speaker 1 (14:15):
Never Sue Williamson was your sister? Yes, How old were
you when she was murdered?
Speaker 7 (14:24):
I was eight years old when Debbie was murdered and
nineteen seventy five.
Speaker 1 (14:28):
Then who were you living with?
Speaker 7 (14:30):
I lived with my parents at Buffalo Lake. Bob and
Joyce women very proud of them.
Speaker 1 (14:37):
Yeah. Did you ever come to Waco when you were
a little girl for any of that that was.
Speaker 7 (14:43):
Going on during that time?
Speaker 1 (14:45):
No, they also came down to Waco for a fundraiser
that I had a big barbecue dinner after I was
found out guilty, and they drove all the way down
here for that. And I don't know why, but I
thought I remembered you being with but you weren't.
Speaker 7 (15:01):
Yeah, they were very proud to know you and be
a part of that.
Speaker 1 (15:07):
I was so proud to know them because we had
taken on something big, you know, and it was fighting back.
And then to come across two people, three people who
really really helped a lot, Bob and Joyce Lemons, because
they had worked so hard for so long, they spent
(15:30):
thirty thousand dollars of their own money and spend hundreds
one hundred. Oh my goodness, they.
Speaker 7 (15:37):
Had ended up spending a little over one hundred thousand
dollars of their own money trying to get Debbie's case
reopened and thing, you know, to justice.
Speaker 1 (15:49):
Wow. Well, when I talked to him at the grand
jury at that time, Bob was still just getting started
and he had spent about thirty at that time. So
you're telling me it went up.
Speaker 7 (15:59):
To oh my goodness, they end up going bankrupt.
Speaker 1 (16:04):
Oh my, I'm so sorry. I want to get into
some of that with you, and also about the fire.
But when we came back to the grand jury, we
had Bob and Joyce, and they had already heard from
Hugh Ainsworth, and Hugh and Bob had done more work
than anybody to figure out the truth about Henry Lee Lucas.
Speaker 7 (16:29):
Yeah, they were very fortunate to meet up with Hugh
Ainsworth because they teamed up together and finished the investigation
and trying to figure out all his steps up to
seventy nine. I believe.
Speaker 1 (16:44):
Yeah. And Deborah, your sister, she was murdered on August
twenty fifth, nineteen seventy five.
Speaker 7 (16:53):
She was murdered on August twenty fourth of nineteen seventy five.
Speaker 1 (16:58):
Well, you know the police report is I'm looking at
her says on August twenty fifth, nineteen seventy five.
Speaker 7 (17:05):
In the report they have it both ways, depends on
what page you look at.
Speaker 1 (17:10):
So according to the police report, she was found at
one twenty am.
Speaker 7 (17:14):
It's about one ten. I believe.
Speaker 1 (17:17):
All right, Liz, how did you find out you were
just a little eight year old girl living with mom
and dad, You had a sister that you looked up to.
How did you find out she'd been killed?
Speaker 7 (17:32):
The morning of the twenty fifth, My dad and Doug
with Doug was her husband, came into my bedroom. Doug
was standing at the foot of my bed, and my father,
Bob Lemons, was at my bed by my head, and
he was kneeling on the floor and he woke me
(17:56):
up and he told me that Debbie was gone, that
she was murderous, and I could still remember it the
entire scene in my head, like it just happened. I'd
never seen my dad cry and trying to understand what
(18:18):
he was telling me. But knowing that my dad was
sitting there bawling, I knew something bad had happened, but
I was still trying to understand what had happened.
Speaker 1 (18:36):
How did that make you feel, Liz?
Speaker 7 (18:39):
I felt lost and I felt scared. I looked up
to Debbie like a mom. She was a mother figure
to me as well because of our age difference, and
I had spent most of the summer with her since
she had gotten married. I it was it was hard
(19:02):
for me to understand at the viewing, I think is
when it first hit me the most and it became real,
and at that moment I had to mature very fast.
Speaker 1 (19:21):
So when they first told you you were still confused.
There was a lot of fear. But when you say
the viewing, you're talking about going to the funeral home
and seeing the body.
Speaker 7 (19:32):
Yeah, at the viewing, I wouldn't leave her. They had
to make me leave because I wouldn't leave her, and
I just sat with her and I would I caressed
her hair and her face in her hands, which is
(19:55):
how I identified a lot of her wounds because I
kept pressing her hair and I could. I saw that
her ear. Her looked like her ear had been severed,
you know. And then I found all these right in here.
And she wouldn't wake up because I kept asking her
(20:16):
to wake up. That's when it became real and my
whole world changed. At that moment, I just started, uh.
I kind of just sat back mentally and just started
watching and listening to everybody.
Speaker 1 (20:35):
Did you cry at the viewing?
Speaker 7 (20:37):
Yes, a great deal.
Speaker 1 (20:42):
Yes.
Speaker 7 (20:42):
The funeral itself was very I guess you could say
scary for me because of as an eight year old
and trying to understand and compute all this that was
going on. My parents were devastated. Everybody was crying hysterically.
(21:04):
There was hundreds of people there. They were everywhere in
seventy five that just didn't happen, you know, you just
didn't see that many people in one area, and I
found it very scary.
Speaker 1 (21:20):
I bet you did for an eight year old girl. Yes,
now you have a younger sister too.
Speaker 7 (21:26):
Right, an older Pam, oh older sister.
Speaker 1 (21:30):
Okay, was she around at that time?
Speaker 7 (21:34):
Yes, it was me and Pam left at I'm still
living with Mama parents at that time. Yes.
Speaker 1 (21:40):
What do you recall about your mom and dad?
Speaker 7 (21:43):
I recall my mom being very It wasn't her, she
was very stoneface. She was very not there. She just existed.
She had a hard time responding to if anyone talked
(22:05):
to her, or she didn't really want She really couldn't
handle to deal with anybody. She was just mentally not there,
very very cold, very stone stoneish. My dad was very
(22:26):
am trying to pick up the slack and be very
tentative and helped me through all that. He actually got
me dressed for the funeral. I remember that as I
still remember that. My dad was everywhere.
Speaker 1 (22:51):
Yeah, that was Bob. Bob had a lot of energy,
and he was a very caring person.
Speaker 7 (22:58):
Yeah, very caring, very very very protective. Also, we had
a lot of family there our house was just full
of cots and beds everywhere. We had a lot of
people there staying. And then after the funerals when the
(23:21):
second nightmare started. Directly after the funeral getting home, that's
when people started, you know, someone was started breaking in
our home and we had a threatening phone calls.
Speaker 1 (23:36):
Tell me about that. Tell me and Jonathan about that.
Speaker 7 (23:41):
They would call and say they would move certain things
in the home, and then they would they would say,
see I moved it, you know, you'll find it in
such and such place, and they would My dad would
go there and sure enough, that's where that item would be.
They also threatened said that they got to Debbie, they
(24:03):
could get to me and Pam as well. I had
one that one time they had broken or had gotten
in through my window, which we had two story homes
and my bedroom and Pam's bedroom was upstairs, and they
had gotten into through my bedroom window and were hiding
(24:28):
in the closet and I had gone up there to
get something out of the closet because we weren't supposed
to be upstairs anymore because of things that were happening,
and someone was in my closet. They had I remember
them grabbing me and I got away and my aunt,
(24:52):
one of my aunts, was at the doorway, and she
started screaming, and then we just ran down stairs. My
dad and uncle Billy had took off looking, you know,
trying to chase them, but they never found anyone.
Speaker 1 (25:09):
So was it a man?
Speaker 7 (25:11):
Honestly, I can't tell you. During all these events, I
had actually, as a young girl, had blocked all this out.
They had taken me, I guess, to talk to somebody,
and because of everything that had happened, and recalling certain things,
(25:34):
and they said, don't they advised my parents not to
remind me a thing. When I was fifteen years old,
I was washing my hair in the kitchen sink and
all of a sudden, it was like a door opened,
and it was like a movie plane, and every single
(25:57):
thing happened like it had just happened.
Speaker 1 (26:01):
Every show you said, All the memories came flooding back.
Speaker 7 (26:05):
Yes, as it had just happened.
Speaker 1 (26:07):
Yes, Wow, what did that do to you? Liz?
Speaker 7 (26:11):
It was very traumatizing, and I was very upset. Of course,
I'm fifteen at this time, so I'm understanding everything that
I'm seeing. And I could hear it, and I could
feel it, and I directly, and I was just kind
of like paralyzed until it stopped. And then I got
(26:35):
my mom and sat down and I was crying and
telling her everything that I that just happened, and she
confirmed that it was all true and that was exactly
what happened, and I had blocked it out as a
young child.
Speaker 1 (26:53):
Now at the time of these threats and the times
that your home was being burglarized, Just so that our
listener can put this in a frame of reference. This
was before caller ideas. Oh, absolutely, this was before home
security cameras.
Speaker 7 (27:10):
Absolutely, yeah, I mean this was nineteen seventy five, so yeah,
none of that existed, so people.
Speaker 1 (27:17):
Could get away with these kind of anonymous calls back then,
and it was really hard to trace a call because
you didn't have all the digital footprints that are left today.
It was just a shot of electricity going through a
wire and when it was gone, it was gone, so
not much of a record unless they were calling long
(27:37):
distance and paying for it. That's not likely.
Speaker 7 (27:40):
Yeah. Yeah, it was very minimal technology at that time,
very minimal, Liz.
Speaker 1 (27:45):
Do you know who found Deborah's body?
Speaker 7 (27:48):
Initially it was Doug. He couldn't get a hold of
her kept calling, calling king and she wouldn't answer. So
he had drove home and he found her. The scene
was extremely traumatizing and shocking for him.
Speaker 1 (28:09):
So Doug had been trying to call her that day
or that evening and she wasn't answering. Where was Doug
that he had to drive home.
Speaker 7 (28:16):
Yeah, well, me and my dad, I'll say myself, my
mother and father, Bob and Joyce. Lemon's had gone and
Debbie had gone to eat at Pizza Inn. Pizza Inn
is where Doug worked. He was the manager there. We'd
gone there for dinner and we had chokeed Debbie home.
(28:37):
We took her home about eight thirty ish and dropped
her off. Mother had actually gone in the house at
that time with her because she wanted to show her
the wedding dress. Her wedding dress had came back from
the cleaners, and so she wanted to show it to her,
and then she came back out to the car. I
(28:57):
was actually supposed to spend the night with her that night,
and my mother just said all of a sudden, no,
you're not staying. Of course, back then, you didn't talk
back to parents, right, you just accepted it, and I
can remember pouting so bad in that backseat. I was
pouting so bad. I was so mad.
Speaker 1 (29:17):
So this was around eight thirty in the evening. So
sometimes after you guys left around eight thirty and between
the time that Devor Sioux was found about one five
by Doug. So somewhere in there, Doug.
Speaker 7 (29:36):
Called and talked to her around nine. They were really
super busy. He wanted her to come up and help.
Speaker 1 (29:42):
Oh, So Doug called Debor Sioux around nine cort okay,
so then we know it was after nine, all right, And.
Speaker 7 (29:51):
She said she'd be up as soon as her show
was over. I traced that, and so the show that
she was watching was over at ninet thirty, and she
was murdered between nine thirty and ten o'clock.
Speaker 1 (30:06):
How'd you come up with the ten o'clock for.
Speaker 7 (30:10):
When it's on our autopsy report. She also there was
someone that drove by the house at ten stating that
they didn't see anything and their lives were on or
anything at that point. So that also tells me that
this had already occurred because the porch light was out.
Speaker 1 (30:31):
Now where did the murder take place?
Speaker 7 (30:34):
It took place at her home in Lubbock, in the carport.
Speaker 1 (30:40):
In the carport, so not in the house.
Speaker 7 (30:43):
Not in the house at all.
Speaker 1 (30:45):
Matter of fact, there there was no blood or anything
found in the house. And Deversu had been stabbed numerous times.
Speaker 7 (30:52):
Correct, she was stabbed seventeen times as far as actual
stab wounds. There was a lot of breezing on her face,
and then she had other small cuts as well. But no,
there was no no blood, nothing in the house, on
(31:14):
the car or on the door itself. Going in the home.
There was nothing disturbed in the home whatsoever.
Speaker 1 (31:21):
So whoever killed her did not kill her in the home.
No evidence of anything in the home that she she
was accosted out in the.
Speaker 7 (31:32):
Car port, in the carport only. Yes, that's the only
place the struggle took place that was factual.
Speaker 1 (31:40):
I mean that was backed up by the evidence, that
was backed up by the police report. But then some
years later, y'all hear that someone has confessed to this murder.
Speaker 7 (31:54):
Yeah, May of eighty four. It was mid May, and
I remember I came home from work that night. They
told me they had something to tell me. My mom
and dad. They came in and they asked me to
sit down, and then they told me that they've found
(32:16):
the murder, the murderer that the person that had killed
my sister that they got a call that day and
it was you know, it was really hurtful, but then
at the same time, you know, you're you're so thankful
(32:37):
that it's over. We had lived in secretcy for so
many years and it was over.
Speaker 1 (32:48):
Were you still living in Lubboock at this.
Speaker 7 (32:50):
Time, No, we had in seventy five. I believe it
was September or end of September of seventy five that
time frame, because the police had told my parents they
couldn't protect us, and the school that I was going
(33:14):
to said they didn't want me and my sister attending
anymore because they were in fear of the other student's
life because the school as well was receiving threatening phone
calls as far as threatening me. So we just left
(33:35):
with what was in the car. My parents had put
things in the car, and we left and never went
back to the house. We drove for hours and hours
and hours, and then finally we ended up at my
uncle's house in Gainesville and that's where we ended up
moving living.
Speaker 1 (33:56):
You had to move, you had to leave Lubbock because
of the threats from the phone calls and the burglaries
and the harassment.
Speaker 7 (34:06):
Correct, we had to leave because of that. My dad
felt like, you know, at that time, he thought, you know,
he was just trying to save the other two girls
because he felt like me and my sister were you know,
we're literally gonna be next, and so if they couldn't
protect us, then we had to flee.
Speaker 2 (34:28):
You know, do you.
Speaker 1 (34:29):
Remember if anything happened that day that caused Bob to
make it an emergency just to throw stuff in the
car and leave.
Speaker 7 (34:38):
My understanding, it was the same day, if I remember correctly,
it was the same day that the school had notified
my parents and the police state telling my parents that
they just couldn't protect us anymore.
Speaker 1 (34:56):
So had this had the school just heard about the
phone calls or was the school also getting phone calls?
Speaker 7 (35:03):
They were receiving phone calls.
Speaker 1 (35:05):
So whoever was threatening you and your sister, they were
calling the school and leaving threats at the school with
whoever entered.
Speaker 7 (35:14):
The phone there.
Speaker 1 (35:15):
Wow, wow, it Liz, And that's been very frightening.
Speaker 7 (35:21):
Yeah, it was. There was also an incident at the
school at the playground area at the edge. There was
somebody in a vehicle sitting on the hood of the
vehicle in a black, very long coat, and they were
(35:43):
trying to get me over there to them, and I
got really close, and then the teacher had yelled at
me to get back, and then they put me in
the school. According to them, that this person was trying
to get me to go with them. There was another
incident at the lake itself, not too far from the house,
(36:08):
where someone in a vehicle had pulled up beside me
and was wanting me to get in the vehicle. I
had a friend with me at that time, and she
just grabbed my hand and said run, and we ran
directly to the house.
Speaker 1 (36:25):
Frightening times. Hey, Liz, let's talk some more about that confession.
So you guys find out that someone has confessed said yeah,
I did it, and immediately there was a feeling of
relief of some closure. But tell us what happened next.
Speaker 7 (36:47):
Yeah, we thought, uh, you know again, we thought it
was closure at last. And so that, if I remember correctly,
that was on a Friday, and so Mundy my parents
went directly to love it and talked to Jackie People's
(37:07):
Texas Stranger and George White police detectives and I mean,
my parents were off I mean, they were just like
I said, they were so thankful that there was actually,
you know, finally closure. So they're asking why, you know,
(37:29):
how do you know this person killed Debbie? And they
proceeded to tell them about the confession, and you know, okay,
and so then they let them read the confession. And
when they were reading the confession, my parents were just
(37:52):
very confused and had a lot of questions and they
didn't understand. They're like, this doesn't make sense, you know,
there was just so many things wrong in the confession itself.
So they were questioning these things and George White and
Jackie Peeples got very upset about that. They did not
like it. They wanted them to buy it. You know.
Speaker 1 (38:15):
Yeah, it's at the bottom of the police report here.
Offense cleared on authority of Detective George White. So it
was on his authority that it was cleared that it
was closed based on a Henry Lee Lucas confession. And
as I recall, from that confession, Henry said that he
(38:37):
attacked Deversu inside the house.
Speaker 7 (38:41):
Yes, yes, the confession of Henry Le Lucas murdering my
sister was he entered the fighting glass door, which could
not have happened.
Speaker 1 (38:53):
Tell us why that couldn't happen.
Speaker 7 (38:55):
There was actually a china hutch in front of the
sliding glass door, so it was fixed not to be opened.
They did not use it. So as far as inside
the house, you couldn't even see the sliding glass door.
So Henry proceed to say that he went, he entered
the home in the sliding glass door. He chased, chased
(39:19):
Founder in the bedroom, chased her around the house, and
if I remember correctly, Mert killed her in the bedroom
or in the hallway or something like that.
Speaker 1 (39:30):
Yeah, in such a manner that there would have been
blood all over that house, all over the bedroom, all
over the kitchen. There's even some talk about some scuffle
in the kitchen.
Speaker 7 (39:40):
So the house would have been just tore apart. And
the house wasn't that big, so you know, I mean,
it's just sounded it was just ridiculous, But yeah, there
was Actually the house was not disturbed. There was not
one thing to served. Even they made comments as far
(40:02):
as how it was obvious nothing had been on the
bed because the sheet still had their crease from being folded.
But then Henry's you know, saying that he killed her
in the bedroom and there had been blood everywhere. The
house would have been just you know, ransacked. That he
claimed that he stole some jewelry. Well that was one incorrect.
(40:28):
She did have some jewelry and some nice jewelry, but
it was all there.
Speaker 1 (40:34):
So apparently whoever killed her accosted her in the carport,
stabbed her seventeen to twenty times in the carport and
never went into the house. Are there have been some
evidence of blood on the door or in the house,
because you can't stab somebody seventeen times without getting some
(40:54):
on your cell correct, So there was obviously.
Speaker 7 (40:59):
They just didn't understand. My parents didn't understand the confession
and why they were saying, you know, why do you
believe this? You know, there was not a struggle in
the home.
Speaker 1 (41:11):
Nothing in the from the evidence matched up with Henry's confession.
Jonathan and I have gone over it before, We've read
it backwards and forwards, and nothing matches up.
Speaker 7 (41:23):
Only think there was one thing. She was stabbed.
Speaker 1 (41:26):
She was stabbed. Yeah, well we've heard some of those
tapes too. Well, I think I might have shot you know, well,
I think again Henry. Yeah, so we know how that goes.
We've heard a bunch of those tapes.
Speaker 7 (41:39):
Yeah. Yeah, you want to take another look at that, Henry, Yeah,
turn around and go back to that house.
Speaker 1 (41:45):
Yeah. Also, I believe the house had been painted since
the murder, Yes, a different color, and Henry identified the
house as being the color that it was then, not
the house, not the color it was at the time
of the murder, right, that is correct. I talked to
(42:08):
Henry a good bit about this case, and it was
just almost comical the way he described them getting him
to the house. Well, we drove around, We drove around,
and then we went down this one street. Then we
turned around and came back down the street again, then
made the block and went down it again with him
(42:28):
asking me, does anything look familiar? He said. They finally
just pulled right up in front of the house, and
I said that might be it, and then he got
the color wrong.
Speaker 6 (42:39):
Correct.
Speaker 1 (42:40):
Yeah, it's kind of sad. Why do you think that
that detective George White and the district attorney wanted to
believe this?
Speaker 7 (42:52):
In my opinion, Uh huh. They wanted to make a
name for themselves. They wanted to close and actually there
were three cases. It wasn't just Debbie's at that time.
There was three Elizabeth Price and Noomi Miller and Debbie.
Speaker 1 (43:11):
Do you know if those cases are still closed or
have they been reopened?
Speaker 7 (43:17):
I know Elizabeth's Price is still was reopened Andnoami's was
reopened at eventually eventually.
Speaker 1 (43:26):
Okay, how long did it take them to reopen Devoras
Sue's case?
Speaker 7 (43:31):
November ninety five or be I mean eighty five or
eighty six? I can't I'm sorry, I can't remember. Do
you know the year?
Speaker 1 (43:40):
I'd have to go back and look. But I know
that while the grand jury was going on, it was
still an open closed case because I had a couple
of conversations with Darnell and they were they were defending
that case. There were that that confession, the rangers and
DA Darnell, Jim Bob.
Speaker 7 (44:00):
And to the state. He is a judge in bab
the County. He's a district judge.
Speaker 1 (44:07):
Well, I pray that he's learned something from this experience
and that he has a more open mind and we'll
look more closely at what comes before him. Sometimes we
can learn from our bad experiences, and sometimes we don't.
Speaker 7 (44:26):
Absolutely, I do believe in that and that, like, you're
very correct, and some people don't.
Speaker 1 (44:32):
Some people don't. And if we don't learn from our pain,
if we don't learn from our bad decisions and bad experiences,
then it was just wasted. It's just pain and a
bad decision, you know, and a bad experience.
Speaker 7 (44:48):
It's just a shame.
Speaker 1 (44:50):
It is it is. We all need to grow from
our mistakes, grow from our pain, and keep evolving our consciousness.
It's the only thing that's going to help us.
Speaker 7 (45:01):
Yeah, and I do believe too that I think the
Texas Rangers had a role in convincing love It Police
Department that you know, he Henry killed these ladies in
their county. I think they had a role in that.
Speaker 1 (45:20):
Well back then, if the ranger said anything, you didn't
question it.
Speaker 7 (45:24):
Absolutely. So the Rangers are telling them this. They it
has to be true, it has to be cracked. I
don't know that George White is a bad detective. I don't,
but I do believe he was persuaded and didn't realize it.
Speaker 1 (45:38):
Yeah, that's probably true. People like to jump on the bandwagon,
you know.
Speaker 7 (45:43):
They just got in so deep that it was hard
for them to navigate from that. I think I feel
they believed that it would lose the public's confidence and then,
and I think that's one of the reasons they stayed
so strong with it for so long.
Speaker 1 (46:05):
M hmmm. I agree with you.
Speaker 7 (46:08):
It's very sad, but unfortunately I do believe that. I
just think and then I do believe that. You know,
after it was Debby's case was reopened, you know, Jim
Bob Darnell, I mean he was he was madder than
the moon at my parents. He he hated my parents
(46:30):
with everything.
Speaker 1 (46:32):
Yeah, I picked up on that during my involvement in it.
Speaker 7 (46:40):
Yeah, Jim Bob Darnell and Bob Prince actually totally despised
my parents as everything in themselves. And I do believe
that's things that transpired Darren eighty four to through eighty seven,
(47:02):
some events that took place. I do believe that the
Texas Rangers and possibly Bob Darnell were a part of
those actions, which I know at the house in Gainesville,
there was a couple of times where someone had rewired
outlets that when you plugged something in, it would you know,
(47:27):
hurt you, very shock you with a lot of voltage.
Speaker 1 (47:32):
So that happened, that happened that happened. Tell me about that.
Speaker 7 (47:38):
Well, there was an outlet on the outside of the
home that had been rewired too, so when you put
something in the outlet, which is the outlet my dad
used to use some of the art equipment, and when
you plug something into it, it shocked him really and
(48:00):
knocking back, and it was very it was harmful, but
it didn't think God, it didn't kill him. There was
another situation where in my closet at the home, someone
had rewired the breaker box so it would short to
(48:25):
cause fire, and that was caught before it did because
my dad became paranoid, and thank got to his paranoia,
he found it. Wow, I do believe in eighty seven
when their house burned down in Ringbos, I do believe.
(48:49):
I do believe they were behind You know, Texas Rangers
were behind that as well.
Speaker 1 (48:52):
Can't prove it, I understand. And during those same years,
while I was looking into the Lucas and the Texas
Range your task Force, my automobile was tampered with. I
had lug nuts removed from the tires one time, all
except just one, so that if I got up any
(49:14):
speed it would have broken off. Fortunately I needed gas
and there was still a full service station in town
back then, and I pulled in and he said, big
you gotta do something about this. And that was a
pretty new car too. My office was burglarized. Even the
safe in my office was cracked, not cracked, but opened,
(49:36):
you know, somebody that knew how to open a safe.
And the only thing taken from the safe were my
Lucas grangery materials. And my home was burglarized. And my
dog was poisoned because they were illegally tapping the phone.
So I know what you're talking about, Liz, and I
(49:58):
don't doubt you because I know how they were.
Speaker 7 (50:02):
Our dog was poisoned as well.
Speaker 1 (50:05):
The reason they would poison the dogs is because they
didn't want them barking when they would come around to
tap your phone or to break into your house. And
another reason they killed your dogs is because it just
demoralizes you. It's like losing a member of the family.
And that's what they did.
Speaker 7 (50:22):
Yeah, our dog, Duke, he was it was his name
was Duke. He was very protective so and we lived
in the country. He wouldn't have allowed them to come
near the home. So I know that's why they had to.
That was one of the first things they did is
they poisoned the duke. Didn't put it together till later, but.
Speaker 1 (50:43):
Yeah, my dog was named Spanky, cute little shelty. And
I'd come home from work and I know usually Spanky
would come greet me, and Spanky wasn't around. I go,
where's Spanky, and my wife goes, gee, I don't know.
I hadn't seen him. So we went out in the
yard looking and he was laying there and blood coming
(51:04):
out of his mouth and nose, and we immediately picked
him up and took him to our bet and our
bet examined him. So this dog's been poisoned. Yeah, yeah,
you know, your dad found out something else about this
confession that made it awful hard to believe. And that's
(51:27):
the date that Henry Lucas got out of prison in Maryland.
It was only two days before this murder.
Speaker 7 (51:34):
Yeah, August twenty second. Yeah, in Michigan. I actually had
the original documents that my parents acquired from that from
that prison, from the warden at that time.
Speaker 1 (51:48):
Yeah, if you could email those, we'll post those on
the website along with when we do this interview.
Speaker 7 (51:57):
I'll have to find those documents because I have the
all of that documentation, which is a lot, and I
have it secured in a location I understand.
Speaker 1 (52:11):
We do too. We hide all our stuff, We digitize it,
and then we hide the paper.
Speaker 7 (52:17):
Yeah, you might be interested. Bick and Uh. There's also
a letter in there from Botwell uh to Lucas.
Speaker 1 (52:27):
Oh, I'd love to see that.
Speaker 7 (52:29):
Yeah, where he's trying to convince Lucas to come back.
If I recall come back to he looked forward to
him coming back to his to Georgetown, Georgetown, and he
would make special arrangement arrangements for him and Clemy.
Speaker 1 (52:49):
It is always using Clemmy. Either make arrangements so you
can be with her, or if you don't cooperate with me,
I'll make arrangements so you don't ever get to see her.
Speaker 7 (52:58):
Correct.
Speaker 1 (52:59):
He is at tempted and bribed with either Clemmy or
with strawberry milkshakes. The price of a confession a strawberry milkshake.
So anyway, your dad he went to up into the northeast,
into Maryland and that area where Henry's family lived and
(53:25):
interviewed them on video. It's old video old. I think
it's black and white. Maybe it's been a while since
I've looked at it, And and they just sat there
and talk about Henry getting back, how they picked him
up at the bus station or somebody brought him home
from the bus station, and I think the Bureau of
(53:46):
Prisons put him on an airplane and well, an airplane
and a bus. Yeah, he flew a plane and then
took a bus the rest of the way. Yeah, they
paid forty seven dollars for the plane ticket. He could
fly cheap back then, and he was home and they
could account for him every where he was every day
(54:10):
for like at least two years. Yeah, And the only
time he only left home three times overnight, and two
times he had somebody with him who vouched for him
because they were going out of town for a little job,
to do something, something to do with a used car.
(54:32):
And then once when he went to Hurst, Texas with
his wife, Betty Crawford and another couple to pick up
Betty's mom and bring her back. Yeah, and that was
the only time. And they remembered all that, and they remembered,
you know, all the jobs that he had, and then
we were able to get a lot of those records.
(54:54):
Bob had already gotten a lot of those records, and
then after Attorney General Maddox got involved when I invited
him into help, he assigned an investigator named Mike Ferry
and Bob and Mike Ferry went back because Bob helped
Mike find all these backwoods places that wasn't even on
(55:17):
the map, and there wasn't any Google maps back then.
You know, there was no sire to tell you how
to get there.
Speaker 7 (55:24):
He'd be radio. That's about it.
Speaker 1 (55:26):
You had to do everything the hard way, you know.
Speaker 7 (55:30):
Initially, Mom and Dad after they read that confession and
they knew that somethe right, and they were not getting
the cooperation with love It PD and Texas Ranger Jackie
Peeple's and Bob Prince, you know, that's initially, that's that
was their things they set out to say, to try
to prove could he have even been in love Itck
And that's when they started finding all this information and
(55:53):
not only clearing the fact that he couldn't have killed
Debbie and the other few ladies, but so many other
people exactly he.
Speaker 1 (56:01):
Was nowhere near Lovock.
Speaker 2 (56:02):
Now.
Speaker 1 (56:03):
He told me that when he was taken to Loveock
to confess to these cases, that that was the first
time he had ever been to.
Speaker 7 (56:11):
Lovock correct, And it's amazing. What just amazes me as
certain people still believe it. I know, I just I'm dumbfounded.
Speaker 1 (56:25):
I can't believe it either.
Speaker 7 (56:26):
I don't understand.
Speaker 1 (56:29):
And some of them are in law enforcement. Jonathan and
I have actually written letters to different sheriffs around the
country who still have Lucas listed as a suspect on
a murder that there's just no way he could have committed,
you know, And so we will write them letters, We'll
send them the documents because we'll find out about it
(56:50):
through the Internet or the newspaper, and then we'll write
to them. And so far we've heard back from nobody, nobody, nobody.
Speaker 7 (56:59):
Unfortunately, everything that I have learned in the last you know,
three and a half years, it's very unfortunate. For whatever reason,
and I don't understand it. They feel, the police departments
feel that it would be an embarrassment and a humiliation
(57:21):
and they would have to they will lose confidence, you know,
the public will lose confidence in them. And I don't
understand that thinking because quite frankly, that's who you want
to trust, is someone that's being honest. Right, So if
they come out and they say, Okay, you know this
was you know, a mistake, and they're going to make
(57:45):
it right and you know, and do everything they can
to solve that murder, because obviously that murder is walking free.
I would I think they would gain public support.
Speaker 1 (57:58):
I do too, and that's why I tried to tell
Colonel Jim Adams when I sat and met with him
in his office and offered to give him everything my
grand jury had found if he would take it over
and reopen these cases. And that's when he looked at
me and said, no, I'm not going to reopen a
single Lucas case, but I am investigating you. And that's
(58:22):
the day the investigation of me started. And Ron Border,
who was the one who had found out from someone
in my office that we were going to be looking
into Lucas, was the one who was assigned to investigate me,
and that was his full time job for two solid years. Also,
he was involved in the smear campaign that Channel A
(58:44):
did against me. All that was concocted by Colonel Jim
Adams too.
Speaker 7 (58:49):
So yeah, I destroy you because you were trying to
make things right now.
Speaker 1 (58:59):
And if I had backed there was nobody else that
could have picked up the ball because the Attorney General
can't call his own grandeury and no other DA in
the state was going to do it, so if they could,
they could get rid of me. They were through with
the task force investigation.
Speaker 7 (59:18):
You're so correct, Vic, and on behalf of my family.
I just want you to know how much you're so
appreciated and I will always be so grateful for what
you did, and I'm just so sorry for the price
you had to pay for that. But thank you so much.
(59:42):
My parents and having you on their side, it just
made such a difference to them and it's made a
difference to me. And if you wouldn't have done all
this at your sacrifice, unfortunately you know nobody would know
any of this, and you know the truth needs to
(01:00:03):
be known. Thanks Liz, And I'm so sorry Vic. I
know you paid such a huge price and I'm just
so sorry for that.
Speaker 1 (01:00:13):
Well, you guys paid a price too, you lost your home.
I know it led to Bob's early death, I know
it led to your mom's early death. That's it's just
a lot to handle. And you were coming up on
this this anniversary date, you know, it's how long has
(01:00:33):
it been there forty some years.
Speaker 7 (01:00:36):
August twenty fourth of twenty twenty was forty five years.
I actually met with love It PD on twenty fourth too.
Speaker 1 (01:00:52):
I want to ask you about that, but I want
to make one statement about what we were talking about before,
and that is when you said that if they would
have just come clean and said, yeah, you're right, there's
no way he could have done this. Yeah you're right.
He wasn't in Loubock, He couldn't have been here. They
could have gone and talked to the same people that
(01:01:13):
your dad talked to. And I agree with you. If
they would do what's right, it would make people trust
them more instead of pushing their weight around. We were
all up against people who their idea of law enforcement
was just to push their weight around. Jim Adams, Bob Prince, Billy,
(01:01:33):
Bob Darnell, all of them just shoving their weight around.
And that's not the way to do it.
Speaker 7 (01:01:43):
You know now now, even as you know today and
other counties as well, if they would just admit, you know,
and just say you know, they know, it's obvious now
with with the information they know currently, Lucas could have
not killed the you know, killed certain people on their
(01:02:07):
case falls opened them back up and look at them again.
Speaker 1 (01:02:13):
I agree, Liz. Just this past Monday, you had a
meeting with the Love of Police. Correct.
Speaker 7 (01:02:22):
Yes, I traveled up there and I was My meeting
was scheduled with the assistant Chief of police for Monday afternoon.
I met ended up meeting with a lieutenant and captain
(01:02:43):
of the crime unit that they have there.
Speaker 1 (01:02:47):
So the assistant chief didn't meet with you after you
drove all the way out to love It.
Speaker 7 (01:02:53):
Correct. They said something come up and he wasn't able
to attend.
Speaker 1 (01:03:00):
So tell us what happened with these two that you
did meet with.
Speaker 7 (01:03:06):
Basically the meeting, you know, the meeting went okay. They
were appropriate. I was very appreciative to their behavior because
they did not attack me. They did not try to
upset me, which is normally how I'm treated. So I
(01:03:31):
was very appreciative of that. There was basically no outcome.
It was just yeah, I'm here and it's been forty
five years. And I begged them to look into her
case and in certain things on the case. No promises.
Speaker 1 (01:04:00):
I'm sorry, time will tell, but you.
Speaker 7 (01:04:04):
Know I begged them, you know I did. I actually
begged them. I said, you know, every time someone talks
to me, they're interested, they think, yes, that needs to
be looked into. You're nice to me, you know, cordial
second or third meeting that I you know, I have
(01:04:27):
with them, their demeanor changes, the way they talk to
me changes. They shut me down. They're very attacking, they're hateful,
basically trying to get me to shut up and go away.
(01:04:47):
And I just begged them. I said, I don't you know.
I know it's coming above y'all. I don't know where
it's coming from, you know, because the detectives that I've
talked to and over the last three and a half years,
I don't think they've got people. I think they're probably
very good detectives. But again, everybody does what your boss
tells you to do. And I do believe that they
were acting on being told what to do, but I
(01:05:13):
expect them. I wanted to stop here. I don't know
where it's coming from. I don't know if the actions,
the directions coming from a particular judge in.
Speaker 1 (01:05:22):
Public or what.
Speaker 7 (01:05:25):
But just stop. There's no reason for all this hatefulness.
Just stop, you know, Let's sell the case.
Speaker 1 (01:05:36):
Yeah, yeah, let's work together.
Speaker 7 (01:05:39):
Let's work together. There's no reason to be upset with me.
You know, I know they were upset because I found
a lot of documents, and I found a lot of
things that they did not. But every time I found something,
I provided it to them information or contacts or documents
that they didn't have. I always was very open, and
(01:06:02):
it just seemed to make the matter a matter that
I found things and they didn't. Well, the reason they
didn't is because they weren't never looking.
Speaker 1 (01:06:11):
And we're not going to mention any names. But in
addition to proving that Henry couldn't possibly have done it,
your dad actually unearthed some suspects, did he not? At
least one or two. I don't say any names or anything.
And if you don't know about that, that's okay.
Speaker 7 (01:06:30):
I know my dad had some suspects that he felt
very strongly were suspected at that time, and I guess
the proper term is people of interest.
Speaker 1 (01:06:43):
Yes, exactly. Yeah, he spoke to me about a couple
of them.
Speaker 7 (01:06:47):
I do believe that my mom and dad's list of
people of interest was due to what they knew.
Speaker 1 (01:06:54):
At that time, yes, and due to the condition that
her body was found in, and due to the fact
that what was taken and it wasn't jewelry. It was
her wedding pictures.
Speaker 7 (01:07:10):
Yeah, her person wedding album was taken, which she had
on her Yeah.
Speaker 1 (01:07:15):
Chat it in the car. Yeah.
Speaker 7 (01:07:18):
My opinion at this time of my list of people
are interests are different due to what I have learned
and discovered over the last three and a half years.
Speaker 1 (01:07:28):
Sometimes, Liz, I'd like to talk with you again, and
we'll talk about that once we've developed it some Let's
see if there will be a place to plug it in, Liz,
is there anything I know You've got a trip to make.
Is there anything I've forgotten to ask you, or anything
else you'd like to say.
Speaker 7 (01:07:47):
I'll tell you one thing I'd like to say. I
just I don't know if I'm just that ignorant or what.
I don't understand why the Texas Rangers today don't try
to make this right. I don't understand it.
Speaker 1 (01:08:08):
I don't either.
Speaker 7 (01:08:10):
I know they've heard other people. I know they've heard
other families, including you, But I mean, just speaking of
my situation, the things that they have done that have
affected my life, my parents' life, and has been so
devastating and traumatic and has cost us money after money
(01:08:32):
after money that we don't have, and now that my
parents are both deceased, you know, it really be it
really be meaningful to me if someone from Texas Rangers
contacted me and wanted to make this right, and all
(01:08:55):
that would include is honesty. Messed up. Don't have to
go into details, but you know what we messed up.
How can I help you solve your sister's case.
Speaker 1 (01:09:07):
It's a word that gets thrown around a lot, transparency,
but it's not something that people want to do. But
we need it. We need that transparency. We do.
Speaker 7 (01:09:18):
The people that are in the Texas Rangers today that
are in the officials are not the same officials back then, right,
they don't have you know, there's all different people in
there now. And I would, I would. I'd just really
appreciative they would they contact me. Let's make this right. Hey,
(01:09:38):
we messed up. It is what it is. But how
can I help you solve your sister's case? And then
do it?
Speaker 1 (01:09:46):
One thing I am grateful for, though, is that I
got to see Joyce again before she died.
Speaker 7 (01:09:52):
Oh that meant so much to her.
Speaker 1 (01:09:55):
Having you and Joyce out to my house. It was
during the next Netflix filming TAKEI. Odin was there, Rob
Kenner was there. He had the whole crew, lights, cameras, sound, everything,
and we got to spend the day together. And I
have some good pictures of all of us together. We're
(01:10:16):
probably going to show some of those pictures during this
broadcast when we air it. But it was so wonderful
to get to see Joyce again.
Speaker 7 (01:10:27):
It meant so much to her. You have no idea
how much that meant to her. She was so ecstatic
to get to see you.
Speaker 1 (01:10:35):
Well. She was a sweetheart and she'll always have a
special place in my heart, as will you and your dad.
Speaker 7 (01:10:42):
She always cared a lot about you. Always a matter
of fact, to the day she died, she always had
a photograph of you in the middle and my dad
and herself on the side of you. She had that
on her not and up to the day she died.
Speaker 1 (01:11:02):
Oh my goodness.
Speaker 7 (01:11:05):
About you.
Speaker 1 (01:11:07):
I love all you guys, and I pray for your
health and for your peace and your prosperity, blessings anything
we forgot.
Speaker 8 (01:11:20):
Let me ask Liz, as far as like what you
know about the current evidence that the police may have.
Do you do you know of anything they have as
far as like stuff they can DNA test or anything.
Speaker 1 (01:11:32):
Yes, wow, And that needs to be done. And what
I'm finding out because Jonathan and I are looking into
several unsolved murders right now, is that sometimes they don't
want the DNA tested because sometimes they know who did it.
There's a murder right here in Waco where it could
(01:11:54):
be solved with DNA. They have the DNA from the
killer because he put out a cigar on her dead body,
and a lot of people here in town think they
know who that was. But getting the police, getting the sheriff,
getting the DA to actually test that DNA. Now they're
(01:12:17):
saying it's at the DPS. But they've been telling us
that for months. How long does it take? So we're
gonna start rattling some cages over that one too.
Speaker 8 (01:12:29):
And Liz, do you feel within yourself that there's this
burden to kind of carry this thing through to finding
the real color because obviously your dad and your mother
puts so much of their lives into it. I mean,
do you feel like that ball has been passed to
you now to to kind of get it get it
over with?
Speaker 7 (01:12:46):
Absolutely? It is and I'm determined this will not be
handed down to my children. It's gonna stock with me
one way or the other. I'm find out the truth
one way or the other. There is enough evidence to
prove who killed her. It is my burden much so. Oh,
(01:13:13):
I know one more thing that I don't know. I
don't know if you're aware or remember, but you know,
in May of nineteen eighty three, Love of Tad ran
Henry Lee Lucas fingerprints with the latent prints on file
of Debbie's case, and they did not match.
Speaker 1 (01:13:37):
Yeah, of course not yet.
Speaker 7 (01:13:40):
Three.
Speaker 1 (01:13:41):
Yeah, there was never never any evidence that Henry left
behind because Henry wasn't there. Well, look, I know you've
got to hit the road. Drive safe, stay safe, and
let's do this again because we're both going to realize
there are things we forgot to say. So thank you
very much, Liz.
Speaker 8 (01:14:00):
Thank you, Liz, thank you, thank you.
Speaker 7 (01:14:02):
I you know, Vick, you know I think a lot
of you.
Speaker 1 (01:14:09):
Thanks Liz, I think a lot of you too.
Speaker 8 (01:14:15):
All right, all right, thank you, Liz, Bye bye.
Speaker 1 (01:14:19):
Thank you for listening to the Vic Fazzel Show podcast.
We're a primary source podcast. We talk about people we've known,
things we've experienced. We're a primary source podcast for more
information visit vicfazzel dot com, leave us a comment or
(01:14:39):
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and thank you for listening. Share us with your friends.
Speaker 8 (01:14:55):
Sometimes things happen that you never saw coming, like a
sudden car wreck, leading you feeling helpless and overwhelmed.
Speaker 3 (01:15:02):
You need someone who understands and genuinely cares about you.
Vic Fazzelle is the experienced advocate you deserve, fighting for
the compensation you need.
Speaker 1 (01:15:12):
Don't wait for the dust to settle.
Speaker 3 (01:15:15):
Call now, because consultations are free, and if we don't
put money in your pocket, you don't know us anything
This is The Vic Fizzelle Show podcast hosted by Vick
Fazzelle and Jonathan Zimick, sponsored by Moroso Wood Fired Pizzeria
and Pinewood Coffee Roasters. Hi, I'm Vic Fazzelle, and welcome
to another episode of the Vic Fazzel Podcast. I'm here
(00:25):
with my co host, Jonathan Zimck, and we have an
exciting episode for you today. I've been looking forward to
this one, actually, Jonathan and I and somebody else. Can
I mention her Antonio. She's our new editor and we've
been working on this for one year and they am
something like that when we first interviewed our special guest,
(00:49):
Liz Flatt, and I'm so excited to be able to
tell you about Liz Flatt. Liz Flatt is the daughter
of Bob and Joyce limits Bob and Joyce Lemons were
so critical to the Henry Lee Lucas grand jury. They
are the parents of Devasue Williamson. Liz Flat was Deverah
(01:11):
Sue's sister. Deborah Sue Williamson was murdered and her murder
was one of the bogus murders that was pinned on
Henry Lee Lucas by his bogus confessions taken by the
Texas Rangers. You've heard us talk about that a lot,
but Liz was interviewed by us. She tells you what
her mom and dad went through. Both of them are
(01:33):
dead now, but I knew them well. They came to
nearly every day of my criminal trial. After I was
indicted and went on trial in Austin. They appeared before
my grand jury on the Lucas matter more than once.
And one time when Colonel Jim Adams called a press
conference down in Austin to call me a liar and
(01:55):
call Attorney General gem Maaddos a liar and call our
grande circus, Bob and Joyce Lemons were there, and when
he finished his press conference, they stood up and had
a press conference of their own and basically called him
a liar. And everything that Bob and Joyce said has
been proven out. Bob went all over the country spending
(02:17):
his own money tracking Henry Lucas's whereabouts from the time
he got out of prison in Maryland until he was
arrested and put in jail in Monte County. It's very
very interesting, and it's a story that's still going on.
Liz started talking on other podcasts. The media got a
hold of her and then, like so many times, the
(02:40):
media can turn on you. And she had some people
doing a podcast who actually turned on her. And Liz
was only eight or ten years old at the time
of this murder. She was a little girl, and this
podcast totally turned on her because they she wouldn't do
what they wanted her to do to monetize their podcast.
So I feel sorry sorry for My heart goes out
(03:01):
to her for a lot of reasons. But she's a
tough lady and you're gonna like her. We like her,
We love her a lot. We're going to start out
by playing you just a little snippet from a Dallas
news program from a sometime shortly after the murder, not
too many years after Tracy Rallit is the one that's
(03:24):
doing it from Channel light up in Dallas. Some of
you may remember Jonathan and I talking about him back
when we soon Channel eight because of what they had
said about me and got me indicted and put me
on trial and one of the largest libel verdict in
the history of the United States. My lawyer was Gary
(03:45):
Richardson matter of fact, this past Monday, Gary stopped by
to visit me. We got to say hi and hug
each other. I hadn't seen him in years. So hey
Gary Richardson, if you're listening to this, so thank you
for being here today. One thing I want to add too,
is that we still have some of those bumper stickers.
(04:06):
Be a thinker, use your blinker. If you don't like
the way other people are driving, you think they ought
to be using their blinker. Send us a self addressed
stamped envelope to the vict Gazelle podcast three three oh
two West Waco Drive, Waco, Texas, seven sixty seven one
oh and we will send you absolutely free one of
(04:27):
our bumper stickers. Be a thinker, us your blinker. Thanks.
I'm Victa Zelle.
Speaker 2 (04:35):
I know Lucas didn't kill my daughter, and I can't
let it just be closed. The murderer is still out
there and I want you found.
Speaker 3 (04:45):
It's a story Bob and Joyce Lemmons have told many
times since Henry Lee Lucas was indicted last May for
the murder of their eighteen year old daughter, Deborah Sue Williamson.
A newlywed, she lived in this house in Lubbock. The
night of August twenty fourth, nineteen seventy five, she was
brittally stabbed to death just outside the rear door of
her house. Lublic officials say Lucas is the killer, but
(05:07):
the Lemons have always insisted Lucas could not have done it.
But fewman authority listened until now. When the Lemons were
called from Lobock and told their daughter's murder had been solved.
Speaker 1 (05:17):
They were overjoyed.
Speaker 4 (05:19):
We were looking so forward to going out there seeing
this information, believe in it, going home and saying, thank god,
it's sober.
Speaker 2 (05:27):
You wouldn't believe the phone calls I made that night
telling you about We were.
Speaker 3 (05:33):
Happy finally, but that elation was short lived.
Speaker 4 (05:37):
District Attorney Jim Bob Darnell in Lubbock allowed us to
see Deborah's file, allowed us to hear the tape where
Henry supposedly directed George White and Jackie Peeples to the scene.
Speaker 1 (05:55):
This didn't happen.
Speaker 4 (05:57):
Henry Lucas never told them one direction hooking to the house,
and insisted that he must know about it.
Speaker 3 (06:05):
The Lemons made a written transcript of the tape. That
transcript indicates detectives stopped in front of Deborah's house on
eighty second Street, and Lubbock detective George White asked, does
that look familiar? Lucas replied, I don't know. The car
then turned left and stopped on the Avenue L side
(06:26):
of Deborah's house, and White asks, do you want to
look at that one again? Lucas replied, I guess it
won't hurt to quite turn around and go back to
that one. The car turns around and drives back to
Deborah's house. White asks you want to look at this
(06:46):
one here? Lucas replies, well, yeah, it looks familiar. It
was whiter than that and had a porch that changed
I guess, but at the time of the murder the
house was green. Lubbock District Attorney Jim Bob Darnell, here's
the tape evidence, and will not let reporters listen to
that tape. But he disputes the Lemon's transcript.
Speaker 5 (07:05):
I don't think it would be proper for me to
comment on the evidence. That is their conclusion. I disagree
with their conclusion.
Speaker 3 (07:14):
The Lemons say lucas confession also stated he entered the
house through the sliding glass door, but they say that
would have been impossible because there was a huge china
cabinet in front of that door. They also say Lucas
said that he killed her inside the house, murder actually
took place outside in the cardboard area. They say their
concerns fell on deaf ears and frustrated, they took their
(07:37):
story to the news media.
Speaker 5 (07:38):
And we attempted to communicate with them and provide them
with as much information that we thought was feasible as
far as letting them have peace of mind about the investigation.
And we provided information to them, gave them access to
looking at the file, and even allowed them to listen
to some tapes, which in hindsight might not have been
(08:01):
the best thing for us to do because we had
done it in good faith, and then he turned around
and now has tried to more or less try the
case in the news media.
Speaker 4 (08:10):
He was absolutely amazed when we came out that we
didn't believe all this now, and I could see that
he was serious about it. He was totally at all
because we didn't buy what he was trying.
Speaker 1 (08:23):
To sell us.
Speaker 2 (08:26):
He was very upset because we found something wrong with
the team.
Speaker 3 (08:29):
The Lemons say they have not been able to talk
to Darnell since in his office has refused to examine
other evidence they say proves Lucas did not kill Deborah,
another charge Darnell disputes.
Speaker 5 (08:40):
He has never directly given us any information. The only
information that we have gotten indirectly from him would be
through newspaper articles, TV interviews or publications where he has
provided them with information that he feels would be important
in the investigation, and we have taken that information and
(09:01):
tried to follow up on it.
Speaker 3 (09:02):
The Lemon's frustration prompted them to investigate the case themselves.
They've spent thousands of dollars of their own money following
the Lucas trail, checking records and talking to relatives. Michigan
prison records show Lucas was released August twenty second, nineteen
seventy five, a Friday. His relatives have told the Lemons
and Maryland investigators that Lucas arrived in Perryville, Maryland, by
(09:24):
bus on a Saturday, just after he got out of prison.
If that is the case, even Darnell admits the possibility
of Lucas killing Deborah on the twenty fourth would be unlikely,
but he says that prison record may not be accurate.
Speaker 5 (09:37):
We have never been told definitively exactly what date he
was released from the penitentiary. I would agree with you
that if he was released from the penitentiary on the
twenty second of August, that it would be very difficult
for him to be in Lubbock, Texas.
Speaker 4 (09:51):
Some two days.
Speaker 3 (09:52):
Later, Maryland Trooper Friend Dixon has sent reports to Lubbock
detectives on his investigation of lucas arrival and time spending Marria.
He says the relatives have no reason to lie.
Speaker 4 (10:04):
According to the relatives, he arrived here onor about August
the twenty third of nineteen seventy five from prison in Michigan.
Speaker 3 (10:13):
No one from Lubbock has gone to Maryland to check
out the relative's claims.
Speaker 5 (10:18):
As long as the authorities up there are willing to
cooperate with the authorities here, I don't feel that it's
necessary for the people here to go up there and
communicate with them.
Speaker 3 (10:29):
With the help of a police officer, the Lemons also
managed to get a graduation picture of Deborah shown to
Lucas by Carolyn Heabener of Texas Child Search. Hebener says
he did not recognize Deborah.
Speaker 6 (10:42):
I told him that her name was Debbie, and he said, no,
I've never seen her before. I'm not involved, and that
was the end of it. I called Jim bar Darnell's office.
They refused to talk to me. They had no no
interest in the evidence that I had. At that time.
Speaker 5 (11:04):
We talked with the Texas Rangers concerning that particular incident
in which Missus Schubner supposedly showed a stack is what
we were, totally stack of pictures of victims to determine,
and that they did not feel that anything that he
said during that period of time would be valid as
(11:26):
far as determining whether or not he was involved in
the death of her or anybody else.
Speaker 3 (11:30):
Lucas did identify Debra as a murder victim when Lubbock
detectives showed him Deborah's wedding picture, but since then, Lucas
has changed his story again. When investigative reporter Hugh Ainsworth
privately showed Lucas picture of Deborah, he denied involvement, marking
no on the back and his initials. The ten years
that have passed since Debora's murder have not been easy
(11:50):
for the Lemons. They say immediately after her murder, the
family was terrorized and were forced to flee their Buffalo
Lake home just outside of Loubbock.
Speaker 2 (11:59):
Starting with an out of Deb's murder. We had people
breaking into the house. We had threatening phone calls. The
school told us they couldn't protect our kids anymore, they
didn't want them there, and we'd be laying in bed
at night and someone would turn a key in our door.
(12:22):
And in order to save the two the girls' lives
really weed.
Speaker 3 (12:27):
The Lemons and their daughters fled to Gainesville just thirty
days after Deborah's death. They say their ordeal will never
be over until the real murderer is found.
Speaker 4 (12:36):
When you lose a child, it is very probably the
most devastating thing that can happen to you when you
lose one to murder. I think it's even more devastating
because you have all these questions in your mind about why, how,
questions that you can't answer. The scholars are there on
(12:59):
us and even more so on the two girls, and
they'll never go away. And it's changed our entire life.
Speaker 1 (13:08):
I knew Liz's mom and dad real well. We've been
talking about Bob and Joyce Lemons leading up to these episodes,
as we were talking about when the grand jury was
on break and everything that Colonel Jim Adams and Bob
Prince and those guys were doing to try to derail
our grand jury and using Mike Cox, that reporter who
(13:34):
is still with the Austin American Statesman at that time,
to just pepper us with all these negative articles. And
by the time the grand jury got back, we had
been on break over a week, maybe two weeks, and
by the time they got back, they had read so
many negative things that they had questions. And I'm so
(13:56):
grateful that Bob and Joyce were there on that first
day because all that grand jury had to do was
in here from Bob and Joyce and they were back
online right and they were ready to work again.
Speaker 3 (14:13):
So, Liz.
Speaker 1 (14:15):
Never Sue Williamson was your sister? Yes, How old were
you when she was murdered?
Speaker 7 (14:24):
I was eight years old when Debbie was murdered and
nineteen seventy five.
Speaker 1 (14:28):
Then who were you living with?
Speaker 7 (14:30):
I lived with my parents at Buffalo Lake. Bob and
Joyce women very proud of them.
Speaker 1 (14:37):
Yeah. Did you ever come to Waco when you were
a little girl for any of that that was.
Speaker 7 (14:43):
Going on during that time?
Speaker 1 (14:45):
No, they also came down to Waco for a fundraiser
that I had a big barbecue dinner after I was
found out guilty, and they drove all the way down
here for that. And I don't know why, but I
thought I remembered you being with but you weren't.
Speaker 7 (15:01):
Yeah, they were very proud to know you and be
a part of that.
Speaker 1 (15:07):
I was so proud to know them because we had
taken on something big, you know, and it was fighting back.
And then to come across two people, three people who
really really helped a lot, Bob and Joyce Lemons, because
they had worked so hard for so long, they spent
(15:30):
thirty thousand dollars of their own money and spend hundreds
one hundred. Oh my goodness, they.
Speaker 7 (15:37):
Had ended up spending a little over one hundred thousand
dollars of their own money trying to get Debbie's case
reopened and thing, you know, to justice.
Speaker 1 (15:49):
Wow. Well, when I talked to him at the grand
jury at that time, Bob was still just getting started
and he had spent about thirty at that time. So
you're telling me it went up.
Speaker 7 (15:59):
To oh my goodness, they end up going bankrupt.
Speaker 1 (16:04):
Oh my, I'm so sorry. I want to get into
some of that with you, and also about the fire.
But when we came back to the grand jury, we
had Bob and Joyce, and they had already heard from
Hugh Ainsworth, and Hugh and Bob had done more work
than anybody to figure out the truth about Henry Lee Lucas.
Speaker 7 (16:29):
Yeah, they were very fortunate to meet up with Hugh
Ainsworth because they teamed up together and finished the investigation
and trying to figure out all his steps up to
seventy nine. I believe.
Speaker 1 (16:44):
Yeah. And Deborah, your sister, she was murdered on August
twenty fifth, nineteen seventy five.
Speaker 7 (16:53):
She was murdered on August twenty fourth of nineteen seventy five.
Speaker 1 (16:58):
Well, you know the police report is I'm looking at
her says on August twenty fifth, nineteen seventy five.
Speaker 7 (17:05):
In the report they have it both ways, depends on
what page you look at.
Speaker 1 (17:10):
So according to the police report, she was found at
one twenty am.
Speaker 7 (17:14):
It's about one ten. I believe.
Speaker 1 (17:17):
All right, Liz, how did you find out you were
just a little eight year old girl living with mom
and dad, You had a sister that you looked up to.
How did you find out she'd been killed?
Speaker 7 (17:32):
The morning of the twenty fifth, My dad and Doug
with Doug was her husband, came into my bedroom. Doug
was standing at the foot of my bed, and my father,
Bob Lemons, was at my bed by my head, and
he was kneeling on the floor and he woke me
(17:56):
up and he told me that Debbie was gone, that
she was murderous, and I could still remember it the
entire scene in my head, like it just happened. I'd
never seen my dad cry and trying to understand what
(18:18):
he was telling me. But knowing that my dad was
sitting there bawling, I knew something bad had happened, but
I was still trying to understand what had happened.
Speaker 1 (18:36):
How did that make you feel, Liz?
Speaker 7 (18:39):
I felt lost and I felt scared. I looked up
to Debbie like a mom. She was a mother figure
to me as well because of our age difference, and
I had spent most of the summer with her since
she had gotten married. I it was it was hard
(19:02):
for me to understand at the viewing, I think is
when it first hit me the most and it became real,
and at that moment I had to mature very fast.
Speaker 1 (19:21):
So when they first told you you were still confused.
There was a lot of fear. But when you say
the viewing, you're talking about going to the funeral home
and seeing the body.
Speaker 7 (19:32):
Yeah, at the viewing, I wouldn't leave her. They had
to make me leave because I wouldn't leave her, and
I just sat with her and I would I caressed
her hair and her face in her hands, which is
(19:55):
how I identified a lot of her wounds because I
kept pressing her hair and I could. I saw that
her ear. Her looked like her ear had been severed,
you know. And then I found all these right in here.
And she wouldn't wake up because I kept asking her
(20:16):
to wake up. That's when it became real and my
whole world changed. At that moment, I just started, uh.
I kind of just sat back mentally and just started
watching and listening to everybody.
Speaker 1 (20:35):
Did you cry at the viewing?
Speaker 7 (20:37):
Yes, a great deal.
Speaker 1 (20:42):
Yes.
Speaker 7 (20:42):
The funeral itself was very I guess you could say
scary for me because of as an eight year old
and trying to understand and compute all this that was
going on. My parents were devastated. Everybody was crying hysterically.
(21:04):
There was hundreds of people there. They were everywhere in
seventy five that just didn't happen, you know, you just
didn't see that many people in one area, and I
found it very scary.
Speaker 1 (21:20):
I bet you did for an eight year old girl. Yes,
now you have a younger sister too.
Speaker 7 (21:26):
Right, an older Pam, oh older sister.
Speaker 1 (21:30):
Okay, was she around at that time?
Speaker 7 (21:34):
Yes, it was me and Pam left at I'm still
living with Mama parents at that time. Yes.
Speaker 1 (21:40):
What do you recall about your mom and dad?
Speaker 7 (21:43):
I recall my mom being very It wasn't her, she
was very stoneface. She was very not there. She just existed.
She had a hard time responding to if anyone talked
(22:05):
to her, or she didn't really want She really couldn't
handle to deal with anybody. She was just mentally not there,
very very cold, very stone stoneish. My dad was very
(22:26):
am trying to pick up the slack and be very
tentative and helped me through all that. He actually got
me dressed for the funeral. I remember that as I
still remember that. My dad was everywhere.
Speaker 1 (22:51):
Yeah, that was Bob. Bob had a lot of energy,
and he was a very caring person.
Speaker 7 (22:58):
Yeah, very caring, very very very protective. Also, we had
a lot of family there our house was just full
of cots and beds everywhere. We had a lot of
people there staying. And then after the funerals when the
(23:21):
second nightmare started. Directly after the funeral getting home, that's
when people started, you know, someone was started breaking in
our home and we had a threatening phone calls.
Speaker 1 (23:36):
Tell me about that. Tell me and Jonathan about that.
Speaker 7 (23:41):
They would call and say they would move certain things
in the home, and then they would they would say,
see I moved it, you know, you'll find it in
such and such place, and they would My dad would
go there and sure enough, that's where that item would be.
They also threatened said that they got to Debbie, they
(24:03):
could get to me and Pam as well. I had
one that one time they had broken or had gotten
in through my window, which we had two story homes
and my bedroom and Pam's bedroom was upstairs, and they
had gotten into through my bedroom window and were hiding
(24:28):
in the closet and I had gone up there to
get something out of the closet because we weren't supposed
to be upstairs anymore because of things that were happening,
and someone was in my closet. They had I remember
them grabbing me and I got away and my aunt,
(24:52):
one of my aunts, was at the doorway, and she
started screaming, and then we just ran down stairs. My
dad and uncle Billy had took off looking, you know,
trying to chase them, but they never found anyone.
Speaker 1 (25:09):
So was it a man?
Speaker 7 (25:11):
Honestly, I can't tell you. During all these events, I
had actually, as a young girl, had blocked all this out.
They had taken me, I guess, to talk to somebody,
and because of everything that had happened, and recalling certain things,
(25:34):
and they said, don't they advised my parents not to
remind me a thing. When I was fifteen years old,
I was washing my hair in the kitchen sink and
all of a sudden, it was like a door opened,
and it was like a movie plane, and every single
(25:57):
thing happened like it had just happened.
Speaker 1 (26:01):
Every show you said, All the memories came flooding back.
Speaker 7 (26:05):
Yes, as it had just happened.
Speaker 1 (26:07):
Yes, Wow, what did that do to you? Liz?
Speaker 7 (26:11):
It was very traumatizing, and I was very upset. Of course,
I'm fifteen at this time, so I'm understanding everything that
I'm seeing. And I could hear it, and I could
feel it, and I directly, and I was just kind
of like paralyzed until it stopped. And then I got
(26:35):
my mom and sat down and I was crying and
telling her everything that I that just happened, and she
confirmed that it was all true and that was exactly
what happened, and I had blocked it out as a
young child.
Speaker 1 (26:53):
Now at the time of these threats and the times
that your home was being burglarized, Just so that our
listener can put this in a frame of reference. This
was before caller ideas. Oh, absolutely, this was before home
security cameras.
Speaker 7 (27:10):
Absolutely, yeah, I mean this was nineteen seventy five, so yeah,
none of that existed, so people.
Speaker 1 (27:17):
Could get away with these kind of anonymous calls back then,
and it was really hard to trace a call because
you didn't have all the digital footprints that are left today.
It was just a shot of electricity going through a
wire and when it was gone, it was gone, so
not much of a record unless they were calling long
(27:37):
distance and paying for it. That's not likely.
Speaker 7 (27:40):
Yeah. Yeah, it was very minimal technology at that time,
very minimal, Liz.
Speaker 1 (27:45):
Do you know who found Deborah's body?
Speaker 7 (27:48):
Initially it was Doug. He couldn't get a hold of
her kept calling, calling king and she wouldn't answer. So
he had drove home and he found her. The scene
was extremely traumatizing and shocking for him.
Speaker 1 (28:09):
So Doug had been trying to call her that day
or that evening and she wasn't answering. Where was Doug
that he had to drive home.
Speaker 7 (28:16):
Yeah, well, me and my dad, I'll say myself, my
mother and father, Bob and Joyce. Lemon's had gone and
Debbie had gone to eat at Pizza Inn. Pizza Inn
is where Doug worked. He was the manager there. We'd
gone there for dinner and we had chokeed Debbie home.
(28:37):
We took her home about eight thirty ish and dropped
her off. Mother had actually gone in the house at
that time with her because she wanted to show her
the wedding dress. Her wedding dress had came back from
the cleaners, and so she wanted to show it to her,
and then she came back out to the car. I
(28:57):
was actually supposed to spend the night with her that night,
and my mother just said all of a sudden, no,
you're not staying. Of course, back then, you didn't talk
back to parents, right, you just accepted it, and I
can remember pouting so bad in that backseat. I was
pouting so bad. I was so mad.
Speaker 1 (29:17):
So this was around eight thirty in the evening. So
sometimes after you guys left around eight thirty and between
the time that Devor Sioux was found about one five
by Doug. So somewhere in there, Doug.
Speaker 7 (29:36):
Called and talked to her around nine. They were really
super busy. He wanted her to come up and help.
Speaker 1 (29:42):
Oh, So Doug called Debor Sioux around nine cort okay,
so then we know it was after nine, all right, And.
Speaker 7 (29:51):
She said she'd be up as soon as her show
was over. I traced that, and so the show that
she was watching was over at ninet thirty, and she
was murdered between nine thirty and ten o'clock.
Speaker 1 (30:06):
How'd you come up with the ten o'clock for.
Speaker 7 (30:10):
When it's on our autopsy report. She also there was
someone that drove by the house at ten stating that
they didn't see anything and their lives were on or
anything at that point. So that also tells me that
this had already occurred because the porch light was out.
Speaker 1 (30:31):
Now where did the murder take place?
Speaker 7 (30:34):
It took place at her home in Lubbock, in the carport.
Speaker 1 (30:40):
In the carport, so not in the house.
Speaker 7 (30:43):
Not in the house at all.
Speaker 1 (30:45):
Matter of fact, there there was no blood or anything
found in the house. And Deversu had been stabbed numerous times.
Speaker 7 (30:52):
Correct, she was stabbed seventeen times as far as actual
stab wounds. There was a lot of breezing on her face,
and then she had other small cuts as well. But no,
there was no no blood, nothing in the house, on
(31:14):
the car or on the door itself. Going in the home.
There was nothing disturbed in the home whatsoever.
Speaker 1 (31:21):
So whoever killed her did not kill her in the home.
No evidence of anything in the home that she she
was accosted out in the.
Speaker 7 (31:32):
Car port, in the carport only. Yes, that's the only
place the struggle took place that was factual.
Speaker 1 (31:40):
I mean that was backed up by the evidence, that
was backed up by the police report. But then some
years later, y'all hear that someone has confessed to this murder.
Speaker 7 (31:54):
Yeah, May of eighty four. It was mid May, and
I remember I came home from work that night. They
told me they had something to tell me. My mom
and dad. They came in and they asked me to
sit down, and then they told me that they've found
(32:16):
the murder, the murderer that the person that had killed
my sister that they got a call that day and
it was you know, it was really hurtful, but then
at the same time, you know, you're you're so thankful
(32:37):
that it's over. We had lived in secretcy for so
many years and it was over.
Speaker 1 (32:48):
Were you still living in Lubboock at this.
Speaker 7 (32:50):
Time, No, we had in seventy five. I believe it
was September or end of September of seventy five that
time frame, because the police had told my parents they
couldn't protect us, and the school that I was going
(33:14):
to said they didn't want me and my sister attending
anymore because they were in fear of the other student's
life because the school as well was receiving threatening phone
calls as far as threatening me. So we just left
(33:35):
with what was in the car. My parents had put
things in the car, and we left and never went
back to the house. We drove for hours and hours
and hours, and then finally we ended up at my
uncle's house in Gainesville and that's where we ended up
moving living.
Speaker 1 (33:56):
You had to move, you had to leave Lubbock because
of the threats from the phone calls and the burglaries
and the harassment.
Speaker 7 (34:06):
Correct, we had to leave because of that. My dad
felt like, you know, at that time, he thought, you know,
he was just trying to save the other two girls
because he felt like me and my sister were you know,
we're literally gonna be next, and so if they couldn't
protect us, then we had to flee.
Speaker 2 (34:28):
You know, do you.
Speaker 1 (34:29):
Remember if anything happened that day that caused Bob to
make it an emergency just to throw stuff in the
car and leave.
Speaker 7 (34:38):
My understanding, it was the same day, if I remember correctly,
it was the same day that the school had notified
my parents and the police state telling my parents that
they just couldn't protect us anymore.
Speaker 1 (34:56):
So had this had the school just heard about the
phone calls or was the school also getting phone calls?
Speaker 7 (35:03):
They were receiving phone calls.
Speaker 1 (35:05):
So whoever was threatening you and your sister, they were
calling the school and leaving threats at the school with
whoever entered.
Speaker 7 (35:14):
The phone there.
Speaker 1 (35:15):
Wow, wow, it Liz, And that's been very frightening.
Speaker 7 (35:21):
Yeah, it was. There was also an incident at the
school at the playground area at the edge. There was
somebody in a vehicle sitting on the hood of the
vehicle in a black, very long coat, and they were
(35:43):
trying to get me over there to them, and I
got really close, and then the teacher had yelled at
me to get back, and then they put me in
the school. According to them, that this person was trying
to get me to go with them. There was another
incident at the lake itself, not too far from the house,
(36:08):
where someone in a vehicle had pulled up beside me
and was wanting me to get in the vehicle. I
had a friend with me at that time, and she
just grabbed my hand and said run, and we ran
directly to the house.
Speaker 1 (36:25):
Frightening times. Hey, Liz, let's talk some more about that confession.
So you guys find out that someone has confessed said yeah,
I did it, and immediately there was a feeling of
relief of some closure. But tell us what happened next.
Speaker 7 (36:47):
Yeah, we thought, uh, you know again, we thought it
was closure at last. And so that, if I remember correctly,
that was on a Friday, and so Mundy my parents
went directly to love it and talked to Jackie People's
(37:07):
Texas Stranger and George White police detectives and I mean,
my parents were off I mean, they were just like
I said, they were so thankful that there was actually,
you know, finally closure. So they're asking why, you know,
(37:29):
how do you know this person killed Debbie? And they
proceeded to tell them about the confession, and you know, okay,
and so then they let them read the confession. And
when they were reading the confession, my parents were just
(37:52):
very confused and had a lot of questions and they
didn't understand. They're like, this doesn't make sense, you know,
there was just so many things wrong in the confession itself.
So they were questioning these things and George White and
Jackie Peeples got very upset about that. They did not
like it. They wanted them to buy it. You know.
Speaker 1 (38:15):
Yeah, it's at the bottom of the police report here.
Offense cleared on authority of Detective George White. So it
was on his authority that it was cleared that it
was closed based on a Henry Lee Lucas confession. And
as I recall, from that confession, Henry said that he
(38:37):
attacked Deversu inside the house.
Speaker 7 (38:41):
Yes, yes, the confession of Henry Le Lucas murdering my
sister was he entered the fighting glass door, which could
not have happened.
Speaker 1 (38:53):
Tell us why that couldn't happen.
Speaker 7 (38:55):
There was actually a china hutch in front of the
sliding glass door, so it was fixed not to be opened.
They did not use it. So as far as inside
the house, you couldn't even see the sliding glass door.
So Henry proceed to say that he went, he entered
the home in the sliding glass door. He chased, chased
(39:19):
Founder in the bedroom, chased her around the house, and
if I remember correctly, Mert killed her in the bedroom
or in the hallway or something like that.
Speaker 1 (39:30):
Yeah, in such a manner that there would have been
blood all over that house, all over the bedroom, all
over the kitchen. There's even some talk about some scuffle
in the kitchen.
Speaker 7 (39:40):
So the house would have been just tore apart. And
the house wasn't that big, so you know, I mean,
it's just sounded it was just ridiculous, But yeah, there
was Actually the house was not disturbed. There was not
one thing to served. Even they made comments as far
(40:02):
as how it was obvious nothing had been on the
bed because the sheet still had their crease from being folded.
But then Henry's you know, saying that he killed her
in the bedroom and there had been blood everywhere. The
house would have been just you know, ransacked. That he
claimed that he stole some jewelry. Well that was one incorrect.
(40:28):
She did have some jewelry and some nice jewelry, but
it was all there.
Speaker 1 (40:34):
So apparently whoever killed her accosted her in the carport,
stabbed her seventeen to twenty times in the carport and
never went into the house. Are there have been some
evidence of blood on the door or in the house,
because you can't stab somebody seventeen times without getting some
(40:54):
on your cell correct, So there was obviously.
Speaker 7 (40:59):
They just didn't understand. My parents didn't understand the confession
and why they were saying, you know, why do you
believe this? You know, there was not a struggle in
the home.
Speaker 1 (41:11):
Nothing in the from the evidence matched up with Henry's confession.
Jonathan and I have gone over it before, We've read
it backwards and forwards, and nothing matches up.
Speaker 7 (41:23):
Only think there was one thing. She was stabbed.
Speaker 1 (41:26):
She was stabbed. Yeah, well we've heard some of those
tapes too. Well, I think I might have shot you know, well,
I think again Henry. Yeah, so we know how that goes.
We've heard a bunch of those tapes.
Speaker 7 (41:39):
Yeah. Yeah, you want to take another look at that, Henry, Yeah,
turn around and go back to that house.
Speaker 1 (41:45):
Yeah. Also, I believe the house had been painted since
the murder, Yes, a different color, and Henry identified the
house as being the color that it was then, not
the house, not the color it was at the time
of the murder, right, that is correct. I talked to
(42:08):
Henry a good bit about this case, and it was
just almost comical the way he described them getting him
to the house. Well, we drove around, We drove around,
and then we went down this one street. Then we
turned around and came back down the street again, then
made the block and went down it again with him
(42:28):
asking me, does anything look familiar? He said. They finally
just pulled right up in front of the house, and
I said that might be it, and then he got
the color wrong.
Speaker 6 (42:39):
Correct.
Speaker 1 (42:40):
Yeah, it's kind of sad. Why do you think that
that detective George White and the district attorney wanted to
believe this?
Speaker 7 (42:52):
In my opinion, Uh huh. They wanted to make a
name for themselves. They wanted to close and actually there
were three cases. It wasn't just Debbie's at that time.
There was three Elizabeth Price and Noomi Miller and Debbie.
Speaker 1 (43:11):
Do you know if those cases are still closed or
have they been reopened?
Speaker 7 (43:17):
I know Elizabeth's Price is still was reopened Andnoami's was
reopened at eventually eventually.
Speaker 1 (43:26):
Okay, how long did it take them to reopen Devoras
Sue's case?
Speaker 7 (43:31):
November ninety five or be I mean eighty five or
eighty six? I can't I'm sorry, I can't remember. Do
you know the year?
Speaker 1 (43:40):
I'd have to go back and look. But I know
that while the grand jury was going on, it was
still an open closed case because I had a couple
of conversations with Darnell and they were they were defending
that case. There were that that confession, the rangers and
DA Darnell, Jim Bob.
Speaker 7 (44:00):
And to the state. He is a judge in bab
the County. He's a district judge.
Speaker 1 (44:07):
Well, I pray that he's learned something from this experience
and that he has a more open mind and we'll
look more closely at what comes before him. Sometimes we
can learn from our bad experiences, and sometimes we don't.
Speaker 7 (44:26):
Absolutely, I do believe in that and that, like, you're
very correct, and some people don't.
Speaker 1 (44:32):
Some people don't. And if we don't learn from our pain,
if we don't learn from our bad decisions and bad experiences,
then it was just wasted. It's just pain and a
bad decision, you know, and a bad experience.
Speaker 7 (44:48):
It's just a shame.
Speaker 1 (44:50):
It is it is. We all need to grow from
our mistakes, grow from our pain, and keep evolving our consciousness.
It's the only thing that's going to help us.
Speaker 7 (45:01):
Yeah, and I do believe too that I think the
Texas Rangers had a role in convincing love It Police
Department that you know, he Henry killed these ladies in
their county. I think they had a role in that.
Speaker 1 (45:20):
Well back then, if the ranger said anything, you didn't
question it.
Speaker 7 (45:24):
Absolutely. So the Rangers are telling them this. They it
has to be true, it has to be cracked. I
don't know that George White is a bad detective. I don't,
but I do believe he was persuaded and didn't realize it.
Speaker 1 (45:38):
Yeah, that's probably true. People like to jump on the bandwagon,
you know.
Speaker 7 (45:43):
They just got in so deep that it was hard
for them to navigate from that. I think I feel
they believed that it would lose the public's confidence and then,
and I think that's one of the reasons they stayed
so strong with it for so long.
Speaker 1 (46:05):
M hmmm. I agree with you.
Speaker 7 (46:08):
It's very sad, but unfortunately I do believe that. I
just think and then I do believe that. You know,
after it was Debby's case was reopened, you know, Jim
Bob Darnell, I mean he was he was madder than
the moon at my parents. He he hated my parents
(46:30):
with everything.
Speaker 1 (46:32):
Yeah, I picked up on that during my involvement in it.
Speaker 7 (46:40):
Yeah, Jim Bob Darnell and Bob Prince actually totally despised
my parents as everything in themselves. And I do believe
that's things that transpired Darren eighty four to through eighty seven,
(47:02):
some events that took place. I do believe that the
Texas Rangers and possibly Bob Darnell were a part of
those actions, which I know at the house in Gainesville,
there was a couple of times where someone had rewired
outlets that when you plugged something in, it would you know,
(47:27):
hurt you, very shock you with a lot of voltage.
Speaker 1 (47:32):
So that happened, that happened that happened. Tell me about that.
Speaker 7 (47:38):
Well, there was an outlet on the outside of the
home that had been rewired too, so when you put
something in the outlet, which is the outlet my dad
used to use some of the art equipment, and when
you plug something into it, it shocked him really and
(48:00):
knocking back, and it was very it was harmful, but
it didn't think God, it didn't kill him. There was
another situation where in my closet at the home, someone
had rewired the breaker box so it would short to
(48:25):
cause fire, and that was caught before it did because
my dad became paranoid, and thank got to his paranoia,
he found it. Wow, I do believe in eighty seven
when their house burned down in Ringbos, I do believe.
(48:49):
I do believe they were behind You know, Texas Rangers
were behind that as well.
Speaker 1 (48:52):
Can't prove it, I understand. And during those same years,
while I was looking into the Lucas and the Texas
Range your task Force, my automobile was tampered with. I
had lug nuts removed from the tires one time, all
except just one, so that if I got up any
(49:14):
speed it would have broken off. Fortunately I needed gas
and there was still a full service station in town
back then, and I pulled in and he said, big
you gotta do something about this. And that was a
pretty new car too. My office was burglarized. Even the
safe in my office was cracked, not cracked, but opened,
(49:36):
you know, somebody that knew how to open a safe.
And the only thing taken from the safe were my
Lucas grangery materials. And my home was burglarized. And my
dog was poisoned because they were illegally tapping the phone.
So I know what you're talking about, Liz, and I
(49:58):
don't doubt you because I know how they were.
Speaker 7 (50:02):
Our dog was poisoned as well.
Speaker 1 (50:05):
The reason they would poison the dogs is because they
didn't want them barking when they would come around to
tap your phone or to break into your house. And
another reason they killed your dogs is because it just
demoralizes you. It's like losing a member of the family.
And that's what they did.
Speaker 7 (50:22):
Yeah, our dog, Duke, he was it was his name
was Duke. He was very protective so and we lived
in the country. He wouldn't have allowed them to come
near the home. So I know that's why they had to.
That was one of the first things they did is
they poisoned the duke. Didn't put it together till later, but.
Speaker 1 (50:43):
Yeah, my dog was named Spanky, cute little shelty. And
I'd come home from work and I know usually Spanky
would come greet me, and Spanky wasn't around. I go,
where's Spanky, and my wife goes, gee, I don't know.
I hadn't seen him. So we went out in the
yard looking and he was laying there and blood coming
(51:04):
out of his mouth and nose, and we immediately picked
him up and took him to our bet and our
bet examined him. So this dog's been poisoned. Yeah, yeah,
you know, your dad found out something else about this
confession that made it awful hard to believe. And that's
(51:27):
the date that Henry Lucas got out of prison in Maryland.
It was only two days before this murder.
Speaker 7 (51:34):
Yeah, August twenty second. Yeah, in Michigan. I actually had
the original documents that my parents acquired from that from
that prison, from the warden at that time.
Speaker 1 (51:48):
Yeah, if you could email those, we'll post those on
the website along with when we do this interview.
Speaker 7 (51:57):
I'll have to find those documents because I have the
all of that documentation, which is a lot, and I
have it secured in a location I understand.
Speaker 1 (52:11):
We do too. We hide all our stuff, We digitize it,
and then we hide the paper.
Speaker 7 (52:17):
Yeah, you might be interested. Bick and Uh. There's also
a letter in there from Botwell uh to Lucas.
Speaker 1 (52:27):
Oh, I'd love to see that.
Speaker 7 (52:29):
Yeah, where he's trying to convince Lucas to come back.
If I recall come back to he looked forward to
him coming back to his to Georgetown, Georgetown, and he
would make special arrangement arrangements for him and Clemy.
Speaker 1 (52:49):
It is always using Clemmy. Either make arrangements so you
can be with her, or if you don't cooperate with me,
I'll make arrangements so you don't ever get to see her.
Speaker 7 (52:58):
Correct.
Speaker 1 (52:59):
He is at tempted and bribed with either Clemmy or
with strawberry milkshakes. The price of a confession a strawberry milkshake.
So anyway, your dad he went to up into the northeast,
into Maryland and that area where Henry's family lived and
(53:25):
interviewed them on video. It's old video old. I think
it's black and white. Maybe it's been a while since
I've looked at it, And and they just sat there
and talk about Henry getting back, how they picked him
up at the bus station or somebody brought him home
from the bus station, and I think the Bureau of
(53:46):
Prisons put him on an airplane and well, an airplane
and a bus. Yeah, he flew a plane and then
took a bus the rest of the way. Yeah, they
paid forty seven dollars for the plane ticket. He could
fly cheap back then, and he was home and they
could account for him every where he was every day
(54:10):
for like at least two years. Yeah, And the only
time he only left home three times overnight, and two
times he had somebody with him who vouched for him
because they were going out of town for a little job,
to do something, something to do with a used car.
(54:32):
And then once when he went to Hurst, Texas with
his wife, Betty Crawford and another couple to pick up
Betty's mom and bring her back. Yeah, and that was
the only time. And they remembered all that, and they remembered,
you know, all the jobs that he had, and then
we were able to get a lot of those records.
(54:54):
Bob had already gotten a lot of those records, and
then after Attorney General Maddox got involved when I invited
him into help, he assigned an investigator named Mike Ferry
and Bob and Mike Ferry went back because Bob helped
Mike find all these backwoods places that wasn't even on
(55:17):
the map, and there wasn't any Google maps back then.
You know, there was no sire to tell you how
to get there.
Speaker 7 (55:24):
He'd be radio. That's about it.
Speaker 1 (55:26):
You had to do everything the hard way, you know.
Speaker 7 (55:30):
Initially, Mom and Dad after they read that confession and
they knew that somethe right, and they were not getting
the cooperation with love It PD and Texas Ranger Jackie
Peeple's and Bob Prince, you know, that's initially, that's that
was their things they set out to say, to try
to prove could he have even been in love Itck
And that's when they started finding all this information and
(55:53):
not only clearing the fact that he couldn't have killed
Debbie and the other few ladies, but so many other
people exactly he.
Speaker 1 (56:01):
Was nowhere near Lovock.
Speaker 2 (56:02):
Now.
Speaker 1 (56:03):
He told me that when he was taken to Loveock
to confess to these cases, that that was the first
time he had ever been to.
Speaker 7 (56:11):
Lovock correct, And it's amazing. What just amazes me as
certain people still believe it. I know, I just I'm dumbfounded.
Speaker 1 (56:25):
I can't believe it either.
Speaker 7 (56:26):
I don't understand.
Speaker 1 (56:29):
And some of them are in law enforcement. Jonathan and
I have actually written letters to different sheriffs around the
country who still have Lucas listed as a suspect on
a murder that there's just no way he could have committed,
you know, And so we will write them letters, We'll
send them the documents because we'll find out about it
(56:50):
through the Internet or the newspaper, and then we'll write
to them. And so far we've heard back from nobody, nobody, nobody.
Speaker 7 (56:59):
Unfortunately, everything that I have learned in the last you know,
three and a half years, it's very unfortunate. For whatever reason,
and I don't understand it. They feel, the police departments
feel that it would be an embarrassment and a humiliation
(57:21):
and they would have to they will lose confidence, you know,
the public will lose confidence in them. And I don't
understand that thinking because quite frankly, that's who you want
to trust, is someone that's being honest. Right, So if
they come out and they say, Okay, you know this
was you know, a mistake, and they're going to make
(57:45):
it right and you know, and do everything they can
to solve that murder, because obviously that murder is walking free.
I would I think they would gain public support.
Speaker 1 (57:58):
I do too, and that's why I tried to tell
Colonel Jim Adams when I sat and met with him
in his office and offered to give him everything my
grand jury had found if he would take it over
and reopen these cases. And that's when he looked at
me and said, no, I'm not going to reopen a
single Lucas case, but I am investigating you. And that's
(58:22):
the day the investigation of me started. And Ron Border,
who was the one who had found out from someone
in my office that we were going to be looking
into Lucas, was the one who was assigned to investigate me,
and that was his full time job for two solid years. Also,
he was involved in the smear campaign that Channel A
(58:44):
did against me. All that was concocted by Colonel Jim
Adams too.
Speaker 7 (58:49):
So yeah, I destroy you because you were trying to
make things right now.
Speaker 1 (58:59):
And if I had backed there was nobody else that
could have picked up the ball because the Attorney General
can't call his own grandeury and no other DA in
the state was going to do it, so if they could,
they could get rid of me. They were through with
the task force investigation.
Speaker 7 (59:18):
You're so correct, Vic, and on behalf of my family.
I just want you to know how much you're so
appreciated and I will always be so grateful for what
you did, and I'm just so sorry for the price
you had to pay for that. But thank you so much.
(59:42):
My parents and having you on their side, it just
made such a difference to them and it's made a
difference to me. And if you wouldn't have done all
this at your sacrifice, unfortunately you know nobody would know
any of this, and you know the truth needs to
(01:00:03):
be known. Thanks Liz, And I'm so sorry Vic. I
know you paid such a huge price and I'm just
so sorry for that.
Speaker 1 (01:00:13):
Well, you guys paid a price too, you lost your home.
I know it led to Bob's early death, I know
it led to your mom's early death. That's it's just
a lot to handle. And you were coming up on
this this anniversary date, you know, it's how long has
(01:00:33):
it been there forty some years.
Speaker 7 (01:00:36):
August twenty fourth of twenty twenty was forty five years.
I actually met with love It PD on twenty fourth too.
Speaker 1 (01:00:52):
I want to ask you about that, but I want
to make one statement about what we were talking about before,
and that is when you said that if they would
have just come clean and said, yeah, you're right, there's
no way he could have done this. Yeah you're right.
He wasn't in Loubock, He couldn't have been here. They
could have gone and talked to the same people that
(01:01:13):
your dad talked to. And I agree with you. If
they would do what's right, it would make people trust
them more instead of pushing their weight around. We were
all up against people who their idea of law enforcement
was just to push their weight around. Jim Adams, Bob Prince, Billy,
(01:01:33):
Bob Darnell, all of them just shoving their weight around.
And that's not the way to do it.
Speaker 7 (01:01:43):
You know now now, even as you know today and
other counties as well, if they would just admit, you know,
and just say you know, they know, it's obvious now
with with the information they know currently, Lucas could have
not killed the you know, killed certain people on their
(01:02:07):
case falls opened them back up and look at them again.
Speaker 1 (01:02:13):
I agree, Liz. Just this past Monday, you had a
meeting with the Love of Police. Correct.
Speaker 7 (01:02:22):
Yes, I traveled up there and I was My meeting
was scheduled with the assistant Chief of police for Monday afternoon.
I met ended up meeting with a lieutenant and captain
(01:02:43):
of the crime unit that they have there.
Speaker 1 (01:02:47):
So the assistant chief didn't meet with you after you
drove all the way out to love It.
Speaker 7 (01:02:53):
Correct. They said something come up and he wasn't able
to attend.
Speaker 1 (01:03:00):
So tell us what happened with these two that you
did meet with.
Speaker 7 (01:03:06):
Basically the meeting, you know, the meeting went okay. They
were appropriate. I was very appreciative to their behavior because
they did not attack me. They did not try to
upset me, which is normally how I'm treated. So I
(01:03:31):
was very appreciative of that. There was basically no outcome.
It was just yeah, I'm here and it's been forty
five years. And I begged them to look into her
case and in certain things on the case. No promises.
Speaker 1 (01:04:00):
I'm sorry, time will tell, but you.
Speaker 7 (01:04:04):
Know I begged them, you know I did. I actually
begged them. I said, you know, every time someone talks
to me, they're interested, they think, yes, that needs to
be looked into. You're nice to me, you know, cordial
second or third meeting that I you know, I have
(01:04:27):
with them, their demeanor changes, the way they talk to
me changes. They shut me down. They're very attacking, they're hateful,
basically trying to get me to shut up and go away.
(01:04:47):
And I just begged them. I said, I don't you know.
I know it's coming above y'all. I don't know where
it's coming from, you know, because the detectives that I've
talked to and over the last three and a half years,
I don't think they've got people. I think they're probably
very good detectives. But again, everybody does what your boss
tells you to do. And I do believe that they
were acting on being told what to do, but I
(01:05:13):
expect them. I wanted to stop here. I don't know
where it's coming from. I don't know if the actions,
the directions coming from a particular judge in.
Speaker 1 (01:05:22):
Public or what.
Speaker 7 (01:05:25):
But just stop. There's no reason for all this hatefulness.
Just stop, you know, Let's sell the case.
Speaker 1 (01:05:36):
Yeah, yeah, let's work together.
Speaker 7 (01:05:39):
Let's work together. There's no reason to be upset with me.
You know, I know they were upset because I found
a lot of documents, and I found a lot of
things that they did not. But every time I found something,
I provided it to them information or contacts or documents
that they didn't have. I always was very open, and
(01:06:02):
it just seemed to make the matter a matter that
I found things and they didn't. Well, the reason they
didn't is because they weren't never looking.
Speaker 1 (01:06:11):
And we're not going to mention any names. But in
addition to proving that Henry couldn't possibly have done it,
your dad actually unearthed some suspects, did he not? At
least one or two. I don't say any names or anything.
And if you don't know about that, that's okay.
Speaker 7 (01:06:30):
I know my dad had some suspects that he felt
very strongly were suspected at that time, and I guess
the proper term is people of interest.
Speaker 1 (01:06:43):
Yes, exactly. Yeah, he spoke to me about a couple
of them.
Speaker 7 (01:06:47):
I do believe that my mom and dad's list of
people of interest was due to what they knew.
Speaker 1 (01:06:54):
At that time, yes, and due to the condition that
her body was found in, and due to the fact
that what was taken and it wasn't jewelry. It was
her wedding pictures.
Speaker 7 (01:07:10):
Yeah, her person wedding album was taken, which she had
on her Yeah.
Speaker 1 (01:07:15):
Chat it in the car. Yeah.
Speaker 7 (01:07:18):
My opinion at this time of my list of people
are interests are different due to what I have learned
and discovered over the last three and a half years.
Speaker 1 (01:07:28):
Sometimes, Liz, I'd like to talk with you again, and
we'll talk about that once we've developed it some Let's
see if there will be a place to plug it in, Liz,
is there anything I know You've got a trip to make.
Is there anything I've forgotten to ask you, or anything
else you'd like to say.
Speaker 7 (01:07:47):
I'll tell you one thing I'd like to say. I
just I don't know if I'm just that ignorant or what.
I don't understand why the Texas Rangers today don't try
to make this right. I don't understand it.
Speaker 1 (01:08:08):
I don't either.
Speaker 7 (01:08:10):
I know they've heard other people. I know they've heard
other families, including you, But I mean, just speaking of
my situation, the things that they have done that have
affected my life, my parents' life, and has been so
devastating and traumatic and has cost us money after money
(01:08:32):
after money that we don't have, and now that my
parents are both deceased, you know, it really be it
really be meaningful to me if someone from Texas Rangers
contacted me and wanted to make this right, and all
(01:08:55):
that would include is honesty. Messed up. Don't have to
go into details, but you know what we messed up.
How can I help you solve your sister's case.
Speaker 1 (01:09:07):
It's a word that gets thrown around a lot, transparency,
but it's not something that people want to do. But
we need it. We need that transparency. We do.
Speaker 7 (01:09:18):
The people that are in the Texas Rangers today that
are in the officials are not the same officials back then, right,
they don't have you know, there's all different people in
there now. And I would, I would. I'd just really
appreciative they would they contact me. Let's make this right. Hey,
(01:09:38):
we messed up. It is what it is. But how
can I help you solve your sister's case? And then
do it?
Speaker 1 (01:09:46):
One thing I am grateful for, though, is that I
got to see Joyce again before she died.
Speaker 7 (01:09:52):
Oh that meant so much to her.
Speaker 1 (01:09:55):
Having you and Joyce out to my house. It was
during the next Netflix filming TAKEI. Odin was there, Rob
Kenner was there. He had the whole crew, lights, cameras, sound, everything,
and we got to spend the day together. And I
have some good pictures of all of us together. We're
(01:10:16):
probably going to show some of those pictures during this
broadcast when we air it. But it was so wonderful
to get to see Joyce again.
Speaker 7 (01:10:27):
It meant so much to her. You have no idea
how much that meant to her. She was so ecstatic
to get to see you.
Speaker 1 (01:10:35):
Well. She was a sweetheart and she'll always have a
special place in my heart, as will you and your dad.
Speaker 7 (01:10:42):
She always cared a lot about you. Always a matter
of fact, to the day she died, she always had
a photograph of you in the middle and my dad
and herself on the side of you. She had that
on her not and up to the day she died.
Speaker 1 (01:11:02):
Oh my goodness.
Speaker 7 (01:11:05):
About you.
Speaker 1 (01:11:07):
I love all you guys, and I pray for your
health and for your peace and your prosperity, blessings anything
we forgot.
Speaker 8 (01:11:20):
Let me ask Liz, as far as like what you
know about the current evidence that the police may have.
Do you do you know of anything they have as
far as like stuff they can DNA test or anything.
Speaker 1 (01:11:32):
Yes, wow, And that needs to be done. And what
I'm finding out because Jonathan and I are looking into
several unsolved murders right now, is that sometimes they don't
want the DNA tested because sometimes they know who did it.
There's a murder right here in Waco where it could
(01:11:54):
be solved with DNA. They have the DNA from the
killer because he put out a cigar on her dead body,
and a lot of people here in town think they
know who that was. But getting the police, getting the sheriff,
getting the DA to actually test that DNA. Now they're
(01:12:17):
saying it's at the DPS. But they've been telling us
that for months. How long does it take? So we're
gonna start rattling some cages over that one too.
Speaker 8 (01:12:29):
And Liz, do you feel within yourself that there's this
burden to kind of carry this thing through to finding
the real color because obviously your dad and your mother
puts so much of their lives into it. I mean,
do you feel like that ball has been passed to
you now to to kind of get it get it
over with?
Speaker 7 (01:12:46):
Absolutely? It is and I'm determined this will not be
handed down to my children. It's gonna stock with me
one way or the other. I'm find out the truth
one way or the other. There is enough evidence to
prove who killed her. It is my burden much so. Oh,
(01:13:13):
I know one more thing that I don't know. I
don't know if you're aware or remember, but you know,
in May of nineteen eighty three, Love of Tad ran
Henry Lee Lucas fingerprints with the latent prints on file
of Debbie's case, and they did not match.
Speaker 1 (01:13:37):
Yeah, of course not yet.
Speaker 7 (01:13:40):
Three.
Speaker 1 (01:13:41):
Yeah, there was never never any evidence that Henry left
behind because Henry wasn't there. Well, look, I know you've
got to hit the road. Drive safe, stay safe, and
let's do this again because we're both going to realize
there are things we forgot to say. So thank you
very much, Liz.
Speaker 8 (01:14:00):
Thank you, Liz, thank you, thank you.
Speaker 7 (01:14:02):
I you know, Vick, you know I think a lot
of you.
Speaker 1 (01:14:09):
Thanks Liz, I think a lot of you too.
Speaker 8 (01:14:15):
All right, all right, thank you, Liz, Bye bye.
Speaker 1 (01:14:19):
Thank you for listening to the Vic Fazzel Show podcast.
We're a primary source podcast. We talk about people we've known,
things we've experienced. We're a primary source podcast for more
information visit vicfazzel dot com, leave us a comment or
(01:14:39):
a review, Subscribe to our YouTube, Instagram and Facebook pages,
and thank you for listening. Share us with your friends.
Speaker 8 (01:14:55):
Sometimes things happen that you never saw coming, like a
sudden car wreck, leading you feeling helpless and overwhelmed.
Speaker 3 (01:15:02):
You need someone who understands and genuinely cares about you.
Vic Fazzelle is the experienced advocate you deserve, fighting for
the compensation you need.
Speaker 1 (01:15:12):
Don't wait for the dust to settle.
Speaker 3 (01:15:15):
Call now, because consultations are free, and if we don't
put money in your pocket, you don't know us anything
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