Drugs, Stigma & The Power of Harm Reduction ft. April Ella

Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
Hey there! My name is Vaughn and this is the Vaughncast Show. This is a podcast that focuses on

(00:08):
mental health, breaking societal stigmas, harm reduction, addiction and recovery. If you like what
you hear, subscribe and leave a review on Spotify and Apple Podcast. Also, follow the podcast
Instagram @thevoncastshow where I post video content from the show. All right, let's get into today's

(00:34):
episode. All right, welcome to the Vaughncast show. Hope everybody's doing well. Today I have
April Ella here and we'll be talking a little bit about a new path, harm reduction, the war on
drugs, fentanyl and trink. For those who don't know a new path, which is in San Diego, works to
reduce the stigma associated with addictive illness through education and compassionate support

(01:00):
and to advocate for therapeutic rather than punitive drug policies. Something I get behind
100%. How are you today? I'm good. I'm good. How are you? Doing well. I want to shout out first and
foremost, Steph for making this interview happen. I'm sure. Yeah, I interviewed Steph a while back
and she knows I'm a fan of harm reduction and when it means your direction. So here we are.

(01:24):
Thanks, Steph. Yeah, thanks, Steph. So tell us a little bit about who you are on what you do.
My name's April Ella. I am the director of operations here at a new path, which stands for
Parents for Addiction Treatment and Healing. I have been with the organization now for 10 years,
going on my 11th year this year. I am also the director of the Naloxone Distribution Program.

(01:48):
I myself am a mom of two teenagers. They're both 19, turning 20 this year. I've been with my partner
for 17 years. I like art. I like to skate. There's a bunch of things I like to do in my spare time,
but harm reduction kind of plays the biggest role in my life and I know that's work. But you know,
when you love what you do, it only makes it better, right? So that's technically everything,

(02:11):
everything about me and a nutshell. Very cool. Wow. Awesome. I didn't know your mom.
That's pretty cool. And you like to skate. I used to skate when I was younger. I was in that
graded it, but I always like to watch from the sidelines, watch like, you know, skate videos and stuff.
So yeah, very cool. So how did you get into harm reduction? How did that happen?

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It's really funny actually because I was not a harm reductionist from the get go. I actually went
to school for fine art for in a in fashion design. It wasn't my career path at all. There was no way
in high school I would have ever been like, oh, I'm getting into harm reduction and like public
service community service things like that. I went to school for fashion where I actually met my boss

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now and I was there and she taught the fashion show productions class. And so I interned with her
for a really long time, you know, about a year and then I became her production assistant. And then
so I was still within the arts. I was still within fashion, but I did not know that she ran a
nonprofit organization. And so kind of one year after maybe like three years of being with her

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at her fashion show production company, someone at her organization left. And they were like, you
know, focusing on something else. And then so there was kind of this gap that needed to be filled.
So I kind of filled it for a little bit. I was technically a temp until they would find someone else
that was into the program knew what it was about stuff like that. But in that time in 2014,

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the Naloxone Access Bill was also just passed, which meant that people could carry Naloxone
on them to be able to reverse an opioid overdose. I had known nothing about that. I actually came up
in a community and in a neighborhood that is pretty conservative. And so definitely there was
a lot of stigma around people who use drugs. It wouldn't be something that would be talked about

(04:10):
for sure just in everyday life about how to use Naloxone or to even reverse an opioid overdose.
I do feel like in those areas and these certain communities, there might even be such a stigma that
they'd be like, let that person die, right? I've heard lots of comments like that, which is really
unfortunate and they really just should open their eyes a little more and see what harm reduction
is really about. And so, you know, it wasn't for me, but I learned how to do the trainings and it was

(04:34):
just to fill in for somebody. I did it for a couple of months and you know, I was doing these Naloxone
trainings and back then in 2014, we were teaching people with needles and oranges because they didn't have
the intranasal Naloxone before. When it came down to it, I was like, I didn't know what I was talking
about, but I was just trained in the training. After a couple of trainings, a few months after that, a

(04:55):
woman who had come to one of our original trainings had come back to the office. She was crying. She
was freaking out and that, you know, I didn't know what was happening and she's like, April, my son
would be dead if it wasn't for the Naloxone that you gave me at the original training I went to. And
I didn't think I deserved that credit at all. But just that moment alone kind of jettisoned me

(05:18):
into not wanting to do fashion and to kind of shift my perspective and everything that I knew about
life in general to harm reduction and saving people's lives because after that, it only kept going from
there where it was just, you know, person after person that was coming back and saying that the
Naloxone was helpful and that this program was helpful and that our trainings were so beneficial for

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these mothers specifically was who we first catered it to to parents because you know, they might be
the first person in home to experience somebody overdosing, which unfortunately it might be their child.
So then I kind of made it my mission to learn everything I needed to know about harm reduction and
the Naloxone and opioid overdose and to keep saving lives with my team. Very cool story going from

(06:03):
fashion to harm reduction. Yeah, it's crazy. So yeah, it's really cool because you're a mom when you
and you can put yourself in their shoes and for sure. You know, obviously as a mom, your kids are the
most important people in your lives and being able to save them is in that way is awesome or just being
able to save anybody. Also, are you Philip? You know, by chance. I am Philip. You know, okay, I had a

(06:25):
feeling because yeah, that's his drug use is very taboo in our culture. Definitely, you know, I grew
up as well. I don't do drugs. I grew up in a dare era. Yeah, same to effective for me. But yeah, it
wasn't too effective. And so yeah, it's not really like it's not really talked about in our communities.

(06:50):
So it's really cool to see somebody who's Philip, you know, to do this because I don't really see too
many Asians in like in this space, particularly. Yeah, same. I work at Tall Step Program. I've seen like
five Asians in like two and a half years, like two years has been clean. So they couple of

(07:10):
Filipinos, but congratulations. That's interesting. You know, there's not like, there's not a lot of
Filipinos in my area or Asians is just that's just an interesting thing. Maybe it's different
competition for another time about like, you know, drug use in Asian communities. I mean, I have
all the homies that used to like go to raves, you know, we brought up pop malley and all this stuff and

(07:31):
all that. But yeah, I never really got to see like Asians working in this side of like
in harm reduction or too many that admit their addicts. That's pretty cool. It's usually in gang violence.
I mean, or you know, if it's not in gangs, it's in, you know, community sort of like a community

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care and stuff like that. And so I haven't seen very many Filipinos in this realm either. So I'd love
to see more, which would be great. And I'd love that. But it is pretty rare. And that is a conversation
for another time, you know, kind of being the model minority. And there's kind of some studies about
what we learn and everything like that growing up and what propels us to have one life for another,

(08:11):
you know, and it's very few and far between when you have someone like yourself or me who, you know,
maybe didn't do the things that our parents had wanted us to do as Filipinos or as Asians.
So it definitely is a really big conversation for another time for sure.
Yeah, you know, all the Filipinos are nurses. That's why.
Yeah. Yeah. Also, I heard you're like an amazing too. But yeah, so for me,

(08:34):
harm reduction, I got into it, you know, I was using on and off for 14 years. And that's the first place
where I felt accepted, you know, there's a lot of shame being an addict or somebody who uses.
And, you know, it's so overwhelming sometimes that you don't want to tell anybody because they'll

(09:00):
think, oh, like, what's wrong with you? Yeah, just stop, man. Why don't you just stop put it down.
And at the time, a 12 step program didn't resonate with me. I still wanted to use. But
what I really liked about it was that, no, it's okay. You're still human being. You know, you were cared for.
You're still a person, even though you use. And I think that that compassion, it really like hit

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home. Wow, okay. I'm not a piece of shit. I'm not like, you know, I'm not like this horrible addict,
this person is just, you know, like no moral compass kind of normal person. It's not a morality
decision or choice, you know, right. And also with that. So I learned self compassion through that.

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And also I found out about fentanyl strip tests. And I remember. So 2014 around that time,
that's when I noticed something different. Okay, I'm sorry. By the way, how much time do you hear?
I mean, I'm good. So whatever you need.
So we can conversation and I can talk a lot. So around that time, that's when I noticed

(10:14):
things were kind of off. A lot of my friends took Xanax. And there was one incident, or a couple,
where like they just took two and they have such a high tolerance. Yeah. That they got a little
fender bender or something. And they're like, what the hell? That's so weird that how did I like
crash my car? You know, kind of thing. And it sounds ridiculous for somebody who doesn't like do

(10:36):
this stuff. But for us, for them was kind of like, they do it a lot. So it was like whatever. And
the toxicology report came back. It wasn't Xanax. Sentinel. Something. Yeah. And it was weird. It was like,
we knew how to spot fake pills. We knew. Yeah. Dude, this is press. This is fake. But around that time,
that's when like, you couldn't tell. Yeah. Yeah. Something around that time, you couldn't tell,

(11:05):
you couldn't tell with like other drugs. Yeah, it was interesting. So around that time is for me,
it's like what I noticed something was kind of off. And then around like for me, 2015, 2016,
like I heard about fentanyl. I was like, really doing damage out there. And I remember doing like

(11:26):
doing coke in the Bay Area. And then I saw this. I saw this like notice, like, oh, if you're doing
the Bay Area, don't do coasters, fentanyl, I'm like, oh shit. Oh, it's fucking scared, dude. Luckily,
I was okay. I heard that's how people started ODE and yeah, I heard about the strip test. And
like you can kind of test, like you can tell if like your stash has fentanyl through the strip test.

(11:52):
Yeah. And you know, during that time too, like for me personally, when I was in high school in the
early 2000s, it was just like weed and cocaine and stuff, you know. And thing, you know, I guess I
always tell my side of the story where it was like, it was technically one of the lucky ones, right?
It's like one in 10 people will become addicted from like their
experimentation, right, with drugs. And I experimented heavily with drugs in high school. I was a drug

(12:16):
dealer myself. I had multiple drug convictions when I was in high school. You know, and it's kind of
this thing where it's just like I guess escaped because it wasn't in, you know, addictive illness and
substance use disorder wasn't part of my genetic makeup if you want to put it that way. And I
am thankful for that. But there are a lot of people who aren't, right? But fentanyl and stuff like that

(12:38):
wasn't like that was just a medical thing. Like it was something you got in the emergency rooms.
If you needed pain management, it was for cancer patients and stuff like that. But it wasn't something
that was around when I was in high school or you know, in college, I had already been a mom. I'm a
young mom. I had my daughter right after high school. So it's like I, on my experimentation, technically,
had almost halted and ended at that point. I feel like she definitely put me on the right track,

(13:02):
if you will too, because I had her so young. But yeah, I, you know, experimentation, I could cut off
anything that I picked up. It was easy for me. I wasn't addicted. So it's crazy to see the evolution
of drugs and what was in each scene, party scenes, things like that. And for me, fentanyl wasn't part of
that. And I'm grateful because maybe if it was, I would have potentially been addicted to fentanyl.

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You know what I mean? Like it's a very, very potent and very, very addictive drug.
Right. I guess we can talk about it too. Like what is fentanyl? Because around that time,
when I started hearing about it from what I hear, it's like you said, it's in the medical setting.
It's a lot stronger than opiates. And it is synthetically created.

(13:44):
Correct. So yeah, fentanyl really was originally created as pain management. It was for cancer patients,
like pain management patients. And normally it would have been applied in a patch on the skin.
So you couldn't like overdose because it would be technically taken properly since it was, you know,
time released. It was on the skin. It was managed. Now it's cut into many counterfeit

(14:05):
prescriptions. It's sold on the street. It's showing up in many illicit street drugs like cocaine
and methamphetamine. It's in a lot of methamphetamine and San Diego specifically. It's being traffic
for Mexico that is real. And you know, there's a lot of stuff about fentanyl. And it's like all these
crazy stories and myths and everything like, oh, it's all only coming from immigrants and people

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crossing the border and all of that stuff. It is not just from Mexico. There are clandestine labs
in the United States. And there are actually a higher number of counterfeit pill presses being
confiscated in the United States for things like zany bars and like that and thirties and all of that
stuff. Those are being made here as well. It's not just being made in Mexico. In San Diego,

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specifically more people are using fentanyl powder in its like in powder form and they're smoking it.
So there's not as much like injection and IV drug use. It's more smoking versus injecting here
specifically. And that's also because of how it works and atomizes in the system. Fentanyl has a
very short like active life compared to something like heroin, right? It's synthetically made.

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Heroin is made from poppy plants. So it has a different reaction compared to something like
heroin, right? At this point now in this day, there are, it is basically no heroin left on the
street because fentanyl has completely saturated the market. And there's like I said, a lot of myth
going around about fentanyl and a lot of what we do is our education to the community about fentanyl,

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the dangers of fentanyl, how to recognize and respond to opioid overdose and everything like that.
But you know, there was these huge things coming around when it really was starting to come into
the market. And it was like if you touch fentanyl, you're going to overdose. If you're in a room with
fentanyl overdose in San Diego specific, we had a Sheriff's Department video that was released

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that they were raiding a car and a deputy opened to the trunk of the car and the other deputy just
passed out. And they're like it's fentanyl, it's fentanyl and they were there's this huge like
like scare tacticie campaign that was going on around this video specifically. And come to find
out they had to retract that statement in that video because it wasn't fentanyl from just being

(16:17):
open in the trunk, you know, kind of just like in the air. He actually had a seizure disorder. And so
he had epilepsy and it wasn't fentanyl at all. And the other deputy that gave him the lock zone to
reverse it, he woke up anyways because he woke up from his seizure, right? So you can't you can't
OD from fentanyl and touching it. A lot of myths were going around about it going through your pores,

(16:40):
all of that. It's really not that at all. It's more so ingestion. So, you know, if you were to touch
fentanyl and you weren't even using it, it's if my big thing during trainings is I like to tell people
how you would accidentally ingest it. And my thing is I love hot Cheetos. And so if I was touching
stuff at a scene and maybe did an opioid overdose reversal and forgot to wash my hands, right? Because

(17:05):
fentanyl can be removed from the skin with soap and water. I went and ate hot Cheetos after, forgot
to wash my hands. I like that Cheeto dust off my fingers. That I ingested it because the residue
is still on my fingers. I didn't get rid of the fentanyl. So that's kind of like those those myths
that are going around in the store, the storytelling that was going around that was scaring a lot of
people. And fentanyl is absolutely a scary drug. But it wasn't something that was just like if it's

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in the air, if it's on your skin, that's completely untrue. You can wash it from your hands, your body,
wherever with soap and water. So just avoid touching your lips, your eyes, your mouth. That would be the
way that we'd get ingestion or you would have to ingest it. And it'd be really quite a bit for you
to have to like direct snort it for it to go through your mucous membrane. So even in the nose, if you

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were in a room and maybe a cloud of something appeared, it'd be really hard for you to really get
enough of it to OD from fentanyl like in that situation. Right. Thank you for making all that clear. I
remember when fentanyl became well, country became aware of fentanyl. There were those things where
if you touch it, you can die. I think about it being in the air and like die or pass out, that's

(18:15):
pretty scary. That's like some terrorist stuff, you know. Yeah, yeah. And it's cute. That's crazy.
But that is pretty scary. And yeah, that's what I heard too, that if you ingest it, like or just
intravenous, that's one of three deadly. If you smoke it, I'm not entirely sure. Like I'm sure it's
like still dangerous, maybe not as because it like you burn off a lot of it. Yeah, it's not as

(18:38):
dangerous. Right. Right. I remember we were definitely there were times when I had some stuff. I
smoked it. And I was like, I feel kind of off, you know, like, yeah, it's not working or something.
And I had the strip test, showed it to my dealer. And then like, oh, okay, cool. I didn't know it was
lace cool, whatever. Like tell my other guy and all this stuff. Yeah. What I meant, when I should have

(19:01):
asked earlier is like, what is harm reduction in the context of drugs and alcohol? For sure. I mean,
harm reduction in a general landscape is helpful to any community, right? Harm reduction in everyday
life is something like seat belts, sunscreen, bicycle helmets. It's things that keep you safe. It's
policies and practices that policies and practices that help a negative effect of a behavior, right?

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So it's like if you're riding a bike without a helmet, you could get into an accident, you could get
brain damage. You're you're reducing the effects of that by wearing a helmet, right? So harm reduction
in everyday life, like I said, seat belts, sunscreen, helmets for bikes, harm reduction, a big thing
about harm reduction, though, too, is when these things come about and why they come about, is it is

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also rooted in social justice. So I do want to mention that because it's not just something that came
about by policy for fun or anything like that. So it's rooted in social justice movements from the
60s and beyond. So like in the 60s, the Black Panther Party, they had free food service and free
breakfast for children to make sure that they wouldn't go hungry. And they also had free health

(20:12):
clinics and free health screenings that helped their people to have preventative care.
In the 70s during the feminist activism movement for reproductive health, there was also harm reduction
for the AIDS crisis in the 80s. So we've been doing this every time there is some sort of big
massive like epidemic or something going on and we want to do it to protect people, right?

(20:33):
Harm reduction for drugs specifically are strategies and ideas that are aimed at reducing
those negative consequences, but specifically for drugs. So for drug use, it would be
it would be like syringe exchanges, clean syringe exchanges. We want to stop the stigma associated

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with substance use disorders by breaking down barriers to treatment and recovery because I don't
know if you know, but there are lots and lots of barriers to getting treatment and staining and
maintaining your recovery, especially if you went to jail or prison for a drug offense. When you get
out, there are all these barriers, like you have 25 days to find a sober living home or else you can

(21:15):
get in trouble again, right? Or you need to find within this period of time a treatment program
that will accept you whether you have health insurance or not, right? So that is a barrier to treatment
and recovery. Harm reduction is meeting people where they're at to me. That is, it's meeting people
where they're at. There's no one size fits all for people who use drugs. We must like, we must sit with

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everyone in their own individual journey because not everyone has the same journey and support them
in the best way that fits their needs. That's harm reduction. So whether it be by the support of
clean syringe exchanges, supervised consumption sites, unsheltered support services, whether it is
abstinence-based or medical assisted treatment. So you know, 12-step abstinence-based or if you were

(22:00):
to go into medication assisted treatment, that's people who are on suboxone, buprenorphine, things like
that, methadone, methadone clinics, right? Because they might not be able to quit cold turkey, they might
need medication assisted treatment. All of these are really big pathways to recovery and they all
save lives. So at the end, no matter what harm reduction, whether it's for drugs or not,
interned save lives. So harm reduction to me is meeting people where they're at.

(22:25):
Like that, meeting people where they're at because I feel like for me in general, or for my experience,
I feel like there are times when I didn't accept myself and I, because you know, using, especially
when you're coming down a tourable, how a reduction did teach me to like accept where I'm at, it helped me
where I'm at. And just it's okay. I feel like ever since humans are around, they've been exploring

(22:53):
like how to like alter their mindset. So I feel like it's not going to stop. Might as well show people
how to use drugs in a less harmful way. I mean, I don't want to like straight up drugs are dangerous.
You know, like there's no being around the bush with that. They are dangerous and they are

(23:13):
dicting. But I feel like if you're people going to do it anyways, let's reduce that amount of like
reduced the amount of like harm and potential death with fentanyl other things cut into it. Yeah.
Like I people are going to do it long after I'm out of here. So might as well like teach people how
to do it safely. I remember back in the day, there was pill reports. I used to go to raise and party.

(23:39):
It was a website. I didn't know the time was harm reduction, but now I see it as you can type in
the pill you have you can type in where it's from like like what city you're at or what state and
tell you on and all about stuff. People will tell you okay, oh, it was clean or it wasn't.
Not everybody had access to the test kits. I remember back then I wanted to get a test kit,

(24:01):
but they're from like out of the country. And I feel like the customs would be like why you have a
test kit for accessing. So we relied on that on that website and it was pretty,
pretty reliable. It was pretty accurate. I remember like hard guests, I don't realize harm reduction.
If you're rolling like I have water with you, orange juice is cool. We have water,

(24:25):
make sure you're like a safety partner. Safety partner. If you're overheating like good and
cold shower kind of thing, I don't realize all these things, little things like that. They were
high reduction. Looking back, it's like yeah, yes, like yeah, we're partying. Yeah, but we want to be
safe about it. Like we don't we don't do drugs. Most cases, we don't do it to OD want to have fun.

(24:48):
Yeah, but we want to do it in a safe way. Yeah. Yeah, no, for sure. And those things were developed
because people were either passing out or passing away from like over or like meth overamping cocaine
cocaine overdoses, if they took too much Molly, all of those things. And even especially in the
Raven Dance community, when you go to things like EDC, there's organizations out there like dance

(25:14):
safe who do full batteries of tests and they're out there and their canopies and their tables just
being like, if you want to test your supply, even before fentanyl, just to see if you're not trying
if you're trying to take cocaine and don't want to do Molly or someone's allergic to something,
you know what I mean? Like you were able to test your drugs in multiple ways, even before like
fentanyl was out and about on the street, right? So all of those forms of harm reduction have helped

(25:35):
people save for like decades, right? You know, we keep going and we keep going in the cyclical motion
of new drugs that are coming out, figuring out what they do to people, how they interact with other
drugs. And then you build all of these safeguards and these practices. And then we keep each other
safe, right? The community knows what to do when something's going on with someone at a rave at
music event at a show, right? Like it's these are the things that keep us safe. So it always keeps coming

(26:00):
back to that, no matter what you get a new drug, you get fine out of work, you get safe, you find a new
drug, fine out of work, get safe, you know what I mean? So it prevents people from passing away.
Right. And how you said was, yeah, fentanyl wasn't around until like towards the tail end of my
using. I'm still glad it wasn't because I might not have been here, you know, because it is pretty

(26:24):
scary. And I guess it's weird to say, but I felt like drugs were safer back then. Yeah, no, we have
this conversation a lot, for sure. I, you know, I was handed shit all the time when I was in high
school, but don't know where it came from. You met people at a house party and they're like, you want
this? And it's like, what is it? Cook? All right. Like, you know, you're doing it and you have no

(26:45):
idea. You wouldn't be testing anything. You have no clue if it came from over the border or not or,
you know, by the bay of someone brought it down on vacation or something like that. And it was so much
safer. Like, you didn't have stories like you do now where people are just like, Odeeing in bathrooms,
passing out in their own bedrooms, all of that stuff. It was definitely a different time for sure.
Yeah, speaking of the coke stories, I remember back then, like the worst thing someone would put is like,

(27:10):
you know, like acetone or like maybe powder, the worst thing that happens, like you'd have the
shit all night. That was like the worst thing. Yeah. I don't feel nothing or just like they cut it with
some speed and you're like talking all like the whole night. Yeah. But now it's like, damn, like people
really put some like really dangerous stuff in there. Yeah. And yeah, it's a lot different. And

(27:32):
yeah. So yeah, I just wanted to go over harm reduction. I mean, we talk about a lot. I've talked
about it. I had people, people on the show talk about it, but I just wanted to speak on it again.
Talk about what it is. You know, I'm from believer that addiction is a disease. It's not really
a choice. I mean, there's been plenty of times where I was like, I really don't want to do this.

(27:55):
But man, like my body is saying otherwise, to me, that's like a disease. You know, like, you know,
I really don't want to smoke heroin again, but like, dude, I am, I'm like sweating of cold
sweat. I'm like going through it. Yeah, you got the withdrawal. Yeah, by withdrawal. Yeah. So, yeah,

(28:15):
I'm fan of that. And it's just not a choice. It's like some people like you said, have it or don't.
And it's really because most of my friends for the most part, like, I don't think they had like a
super serious issue because for the most part, it seemed like they were able to like function.
I was able to function too, but we stopped long after I did. I was seeing with alcohol, like, how come

(28:38):
like they can stop at like three or four drinks, but I got a blackout to have fun. Yeah, they stop
doing coke at a sensible time. Like they stopped on like, let's say we do on a Friday,
though we don't like stop on a Saturday, but me, I keep going, you know, and then realize, I didn't

(28:58):
realize. I was like, oh, I have like, I'm different. Yeah, took a while for me to accept that.
No, absolutely. And that's really what it comes down to. And I mean, even when you think about the
context of drugs and even alcohol, like you said, you were talking about alcohol, you know, safe
consumption sites are bars, right? And so it's like when you think about drugs and how we use them

(29:19):
and what they do and how it affects the body, if we had safe consumption sites for drugs,
people might not be having as bad of problems. If we had better services for people who use drugs,
we wouldn't be having as many problems as we're having because of them, how we take care of it,
right? We have the policies and the procedures and the medical, the medical outlook on it versus
the criminal outlook. And then it would be a lot easier. Other countries are doing it. You know,

(29:42):
what I mean, they have not like, we have over 108,000 overdoses for the past like three years.
And other countries have like under 300, you know, what I mean, because they know what to do and
they're doing the right thing and they're controlling it in the right way, where they have access and
they have the services they need for people who use drugs, you know, so it's just like you think

(30:04):
about that, you think about going out, doing coke and all of that stuff. It's the same thing as if
you're going out to go get a drink and go, you know, whether you were in alcoholic or not,
it's something that you were doing and you're consuming safely at a bar. So it's just like, I wish
that people would like draw that line to see that it's the exact same thing, you know what I mean?
And alcohol is if not more dangerous than a lot of other drugs out there.

(30:27):
Yeah, I totally agree. I mean, that's so cool with the using sites. They're safe.
Keith makes it a lot safer and I don't realize that other countries have such a lower amount of
overdoses. Yeah. Those numbers, low me away. Oh yeah, if you really looked at what the numbers are,
like, you know, my executive director went to Portugal. They had a medical model for their,

(30:52):
for opioids and, you know, addiction and opioid use disorder and substance use disorder.
Have they have safe consumption sites out there? They have a very, very low rate. I don't know what
it is currently right now, but, you know, there are multiple countries in the world who are doing
this type of harm reduction model and they are seeing the results be positive and they're not
negative like they are here, you know what I mean? So it's definitely polar opposites, but that's

(31:17):
also another conversation, you know what I mean? Like, you know, and the Philippines, Duterte was,
you know, killing people during his drug war for people who just use drugs and they're, you know,
there was a huge, huge thing. What was it? It was through the pandemic too, that they were killing people
that were using drugs and you could just tell on people and do like citizens arrests and stuff like

(31:37):
that and turn people in. It was really, really horrific. So it's just like to hear about that at
home and then also where we are here and people are dying of fentanyl, you know what I mean? Like,
it's like fentanyl overdose and stuff. It's just to see the countries that are doing it a certain way
and the countries that are doing it the way that you technically should with harm reduction.
Yeah, when I read that, I'm like, that is so scary just to be a user, you know, like, yeah, just to

(32:00):
me and it could be from marijuana too. Like, it wasn't even for anything crazy. It could be like,
literally for weed and it was upwards of like way more than 20,000 people that were killed across
the Philippines for using drugs. It was insane. And what you said about alcohol too, that is so true.
Like, yeah, I'm not, I don't want to like diminish how dangerous drugs are, but yeah, alcohol

(32:23):
is super dangerous too. Super dangerous. I mean, like the damage it does to your body and just
blacking out and not remembering a lot of things that happen. Yeah. Yeah. And it's interesting how
that's okay. Yeah. Right? Like, because prohibition failed, they failed their fight to try and ban alcohol
and get it out of here. So they're way of making alcohol okay. And for you to be able to consume alcohol

(32:48):
properly, properly, right, is to go to a bar and not to see a consumption site for alcohol. So
same thing should apply to drugs, but people will not make that, that, you know, that connection.
Yeah. I mean, I feel like we all learn about the prohibition and how it failed. Same thing with drugs.
My parents were failing terribly. We like, is that over 100,000 people are dying each year of opioid

(33:12):
overdose or overdoses in general. We're not doing the right thing. Obviously, and yet we're still
choosing other policies that don't go into the favor of people to keep them alive. So
right. So this next question, I feel like everybody's heard this phrase or phrases, war on drugs,
aren't we, for a war? It's not show what is that? Because I feel like, you know, we've heard that so

(33:39):
many times throughout the years. And when you think of a war, you think of like, you know, a war war,
like war war two war fighting people. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. What is that? Can you tell us more about it?
So to me, I mean, and in general, and in history, in general, the drug war really has never gone away.

(34:02):
There is a new rhetoric. There is a new revamp if you want to put. And a lot of people like to call
it the war on drugs 2.0. The drug war has never gone away. It's basically drug war 2.0 only because it
boils down to the quick fixes, right? The changes in the laws, the policies and procedures, like I
had talked about. And those quick fixes pull support from like said services, like I said, like syringe

(34:27):
exchanges, treatment versus recovery versus incarceration, safe consumption sites, all of that stuff.
You're pulling out of community, an investment, and then you're divesting in a community to do things
like incarcerate people for petty theft and nonviolent drug offenses, right? And really, if you really

(34:49):
look at it historically, the war on drugs really was never a war on drugs itself. It has always been a war
on people. Since since Nixon declared the war on drugs in 1971, the drug war was a way to like
actually just criminalize people of color. It was a way for them to throw people in jail. And during

(35:10):
that time, during the Nixon era, it was a scapegoat that they tried to crack down on people of color
and protesters of the Vietnam War. And it was racially motivated specifically for marijuana, right?
And that was in the 70s. So that's like 1971. Then it moves on to if everyone remembers, obviously,

(35:30):
just say no is like one of the most famous like anti drug campaigns. And that kind of started
with Nancy Reagan. And it wasn't officially launched by her, but she said it to a kid in like an
elementary school she was visiting. And she coined that term as just say no, but it was an anti drug
initiative during the crack epidemic, which they were blaming black people. Like, you know, what I mean,
like they were blaming black people for reaping white women. They were saying that they were bringing

(35:54):
in the drugs. It was a crack epidemic. And that was in the 80s. And if you fast forward to today,
we have fentanyl, right? So this is the relaunch again of anti drug war policies, passing of the new
prop 36. You know, we've we've helped assist in the passing of lots and lots of legislation

(36:15):
that helps for treatment versus incarceration helps for non dry violent drug offenses and goes
towards all of the things that we truly believe in in our organization and go towards harm reduction.
But the passing of in California specifically, there was a new prop on the ballot and it was prop 36,
which is really funny because originally prop 36 in the early 2000s was a prop for treatment

(36:40):
versus incarceration. But the new prop 36 takes a step back in time because it reverses the punishment
reductions that were carved out in prop 47 in California. And it strips funding for treatment programs
that were originally in prop 36 that we put in, you know, in place originally. So, you know,
we're going into this revamped war of like, you know, that passed in California. So that means all

(37:06):
of the treatment, all of the like the sentencing, like when they were trying, if they were trying to
felonies go down to misdemeanors, things like that for those non violent drug offenses is back in
place now technically. So the current resurgence came with the growing of the fentanyl and opioid
epidemic and the opioid overdose crisis in the United States. So it's really being blamed on Mexico

(37:30):
this time, right? So you had, you know, things during the Vietnam War, then it moved to the Black
people during the crack epidemic and now we're blaming Mexicans for taking fentanyl over the border,
right? So this is our way of being like we can criminalize people who are bringing drugs or having
drugs, even if it's not just from here. Like I said, there are clandestine labs in the United

(37:50):
States as well. So now it's being blamed on Mexico and it wages further devastation and it, you know,
now at this point in time has arrests, raids and deportation, right? So it's affecting our communities,
it's ripping apart families and so the drug war really has never been directly against drugs.
It's been a war on people and specifically people in Black and Brown communities, right?

(38:14):
So it's, if you really break it down, the drug war is trending with the drug supply if you want to
put it that way. So you know, we said what marijuana first in the 70s, crack in the 80s, we're going into
heroin in like the 90s and then like fentanyl now, right? And then so once one drug is somewhat pushed
out and another one comes in, the supply is going to go down from one and the demand is going to go

(38:38):
up for the next one that's coming in. So it restarts the new substance then creating the reiteration
of the drug war over and over and over again. So it really hasn't ever left. So you know, that's kind
of like the history of the drug war and where it started to now where it's still going and we are
still, once again, going back in time because a lot of bills and legislation like, you know, Oregon

(38:58):
passed decriminalization of drugs. They were going that route, the harm reduction treatment route
and everything like that and they're trying to re-criminalize drugs right now. So you know, we,
we get a few inches in our journey and then we get taken back miles. So the drug war is still
still very present and still going for sure. Yeah, thank you for giving us a brief summary.

(39:22):
It's so well, well said. It does. I do remember the just say no or, you know, oh, is it like
in video game arcades? It was like only you like drugs. People who use drugs are losers essentially.
I remember that and like, yeah, no, there was very, very negative like campaigns, you know,

(39:44):
a re-fer madness. But if you use drugs, you're going to jump off the top of the building like that
type of stuff. It was crazy. And it's interesting with quote unquote re-fer madness. We see now the
positive effects of cannabis. Yeah, it's legal. You know, it, we, yeah. And I had a previous guest
last week, we were talking about ketamine therapy and how it's helping her with anxiety, trauma,

(40:09):
all that stuff. Now and with people using, you know, go to Iowa, I wasca retreats.
Oh, psychedelic retreats. Yeah.
The dog retreats. How it's helping. I'm not saying all drugs do that. But it's interesting how it's
been labeled. I mean, back then, ketamine was like, oh, it's like a, it's a party drug and now,
oh, it can help you with mental health stuff. Yeah. And so that's interesting with how that works.

(40:37):
And it's interesting how like if you get pulled over the coke, it would be a lot less worse as if
you get pulled over the crack. And it's like the same thing where you just put it, what making you sort
into it. It's some different. But yeah, it's really interesting how that works. And what else is I
going to say? Yeah. Yeah. Toy forgot my train of thought. No, you're good. Yeah. But it's just

(41:03):
interesting how that works. And again, like you said, with people nonviolent,
friends with drugs, it's like they don't need to go to jail. I feel like when you go to jail,
not out of 10 times, come out. It's gonna be a lot worse. Like you learn some stuff there.
You learn stuff in prison. Like, I can jail prison. Yeah. Or sometimes your sentence might,
my increase because you get in a fight out there. And then you know, the politics in there and stuff.

(41:28):
Sometimes that does happen. And it's like this person became was nonviolent. But then he comes out a lot,
you know, more like willing to do drugs in his life. You know, barriers when you get out, you're a
felony. And it's hard to get jobs and stuff. So there's no need to do those barriers. And it goes
into the criminal justice cycle too. Because you know, you get thrown in because of something and then

(41:51):
you keep going. And then I talked about the treatment earlier and how it funnels. And you know, you have
to find a, you know, a treatment program by this time where you can go back to jail. Like, you know,
what he mean? Like there's no real like cut out way for people to find their recovery or even
reenter into society post prison post jail. You know, so post incarceration, it's so, it's so bleak

(42:14):
for people who are re entering into society. You know what he mean? The system is set up for everybody,
especially people who use drugs to fail. Yeah. And it'd be great if we saw it as like a medical issue.
Because a lot of us, well, for me personally, yeah, it felt good. You know, when drugs feels good,
but I realized that I kept doing it because I was trying to escape something. Yeah. You know,

(42:39):
past, you know, growing up with childhood trauma, whatever. We're sure. Or just we are
able to cope with anxiety or enable to cope with grief, loss. That sounds like a mental health issue to
me. And you're using substances to help you cope to me. That sounds like a medical issue and not a
criminal issue. It's a self. Yeah. People are self-medicating. We have a system that also doesn't have

(43:04):
good health care and we don't support mental services. You know, what do you mean? Like that goes
back to that continuum of care of all the community services that you invest in, right? And that keeps
people safe. That's why other countries are doing such a great job. You know, taking care of their people
because it's community-based. And it is, they treat it as not a criminal justice problem. And like you

(43:27):
said, a medical problem. It is a mental illness. It is medical. Yeah. It's funny little story with that.
I remember at the time I don't have the best insurance and I was like, okay, maybe I need help. I didn't
do the 12 step program yet. But maybe I need help. Let me go to the therapist first. It was kind of
expensive, like $190 session. Yeah. And I was telling myself like, okay, this is the fucked up part.

(43:52):
I was like, well, yeah, it's $190 or I can get like some dope for like $190. Well, am I going to pick?
And the dope lasts longer. The dope lasts longer as cheaper. It's more fun. Yeah.
And so I started doing that. And it's like, well, maybe if I had better insurance, you know,
wouldn't have happened if better universal health care for everybody, you don't have to make that

(44:16):
choice necessarily or you do both the least. Yeah. But um, yeah, it's interesting how that is. And
being raw, I think it'd be a lot more cool if we see people with addiction problems. Like,
they're not bad people as just to have for disease. Yeah. Like other diseases. It's like, it's like,
it's like, it's like, it's like the only disease where it's like, you keep doing stuff to like,

(44:41):
make yourself, I'm gonna cut that. I don't know what I was saying. But like,
it's a disease for sure because you know, like, it's a disease in the mind essentially. Because like,
you know that like, this is bad for you, but you're gonna keep doing it. So to me, that's like,
it is a disease. Something. Yep. Yeah. My boss likes to make a really good comparison all the time.

(45:05):
Like, you wouldn't punish someone with diabetes for eating a cookie, right? Like, you wouldn't be like,
you know, you're not supposed to eat cookies. You cannot have cake. You can't be eating all these
sweets when you have diabetes because you keep making that mistake. I'm gonna send you to jail,
right? Like, it's, that's like telling someone with diabetes that they have to go to jail
for picking up that cookie and eating that cookie when they know they're not supposed to, right? Because

(45:29):
they're ill. They, that it does something to their body and their mind. It should be treated the
exact same. You shouldn't be sending people to jail for using drugs because it is in, it's something
that is a public health issue and it is something to do with the mind and it is a disease. So, you know,
we don't treat it like that here, especially in, in the United States. But that is absolutely,

(45:51):
like, you know, it should not be criminalized by any means for people who use drugs. Sugar is just
as big of an addiction as any other drug too. You know what I mean? It's one of the most potent,
most addictive drugs that you have in the United States or anywhere in the world. And so,
why would we punish people if they were eating sugar? That's a great way to put it. I like that
analogy and just to put it for those who are not, are not addicts or never done drugs. If you're like

(46:17):
really an addict, that's like your main priority in life, your main goal. So, to tell somebody just
put it down or just don't do it, it really doesn't make sense because this is like, it's rewired
your brain to think that drugs is part of your survival. Part of your survival is to like, you know,
water and food. Drugs, if you're addicted, it will pretty much, why are your heart, why are your

(46:44):
brain rewired your brain and thinking that no, getting drugs is a main priority. Food, water, whatever
else, that's second nature. You got to like get that. So, I just want to put that in perspective
for people who think like, you can just put it down or just stop. Some people can. Yeah.
But some people have a more difficult time doing it. And I think if you shame them,

(47:05):
if you do that, they're going to isolate themselves more. Yeah. And when you do that,
they probably want to talk to you. And I think when that happens, probably use more drugs. And they'll
probably, they might, if they don't have like, they don't have, my can, that's a short word for

(47:27):
the lockstone. They might overdose because of it. So, it's just something just a heads up, you know,
like for people who have, have people in the lives or addicts that like, shaming them, making them feel
bad, won't really, won't really help. No, absolutely not. You got to break that stigma for sure.
Yeah. So, what do you feel like fear mongering has done

(47:51):
from the drug war? Like when we, when we, I mean, I, okay, I get it from the point of view, yeah,
drugs are dangerous. They're kind of harmful. But you're adding a lot, another layer of like fear
that's making it a lot worse. Yeah. So, I guess a big consequence is obviously with fear mongering is

(48:16):
just mass hysteria. You know what I mean? Like obviously, you know, we're in a opioid overdose
epidemic and an event in all, like epidemic as well. We have policymakers and people like in power
who will continue to like push dangerous and hurtful rhetoric that like propels their message that
drug use is criminal justice. Once again, it always comes back to it being criminal justice, right?

(48:39):
Versus a public health issue. When it comes down to it, we should always be treating it like a
public health issue. But we don't treat that here. So, when you have something like that and you
have this fear mongering around a certain drug specifically, a certain demographic, a certain race,
right? You start putting these things on there. It, it creates a lot of misinformation, first of all,
because a lot of that fear mongering a lot of the time really isn't fact or evidence-based. And then

(49:04):
it gives the public mistrust and leads to panic and disarray. Like I said, you know, so it's going to
create that like that that jarring effect of like, oh my god, like look, the Fentional is absolutely
terrible, right? Evidence-based education is what we should be aiming for always, right? Because like
you said, we, we came, I came, like it's Red Ribbon Week, just say no, like we had the dare programs

(49:26):
mad, like, you know, all of those things that were happening where everything was absolutely
abstinence-based. They don't ever tell you what you do or what you should do when somebody approaches
you with wanting to use drugs, right? Like, did you want to try this? And it was always just say no.
That doesn't work for everyone. Someone could be extremely curious and be like, yeah, I want that,

(49:47):
you know what I mean? But they don't tell you what happens, how to use it, what's going to happen
to you after? Because nobody knows until you find out for yourself, right? So that also creates a
lot of things because that's when people don't understand or just like now in this day and age,
Fentional is killing people because nobody's talking to the kids about Fentional, like they're saying
it and they're scaring people and being like, if you touch it, you'll die, if you inhale it, you'll die,

(50:09):
all of these things, right? So those are the things that happen when you have these crazy, like,
fear-mongering tactics, right? Drug-or defenders, if you want to put it that way, are always looking
for like a boogie man. So like I said, a race, a person, you know, a certain class of people,
someone to blame and it will always be someone else's fault. And so we should always just take that step

(50:33):
back and look at the root of the problem. So the root of the problem, especially with us, it's we
have homelessness, mental, lack of mental health services, roadblocks to recovery, like I said,
if you needed to go from jail to a sober living home, affordable healthcare, all of those things
are the root of the problem, but we're not fixing it, we're band-dating it, right? So fear-mongering,
once again, divests in community care and perpetuates this harmful cycle to all affected, whether it's a

(51:00):
family member of somebody who got arrested for a nonviolent drug offense, that person goes to jail,
for however many years, you have a parent that gets taken away or their child gets taken away
because someone's using drugs, it is wrecking these families and these communities because it's not
being treated like a public health crisis. Yeah, well said, also with that, yeah, I feel like

(51:24):
you know the misinformation and incarceration, it all adds up because of the fear-mongering.
I remember like I always thought that I'd never do certain drugs and it's like I did, and it's like
it's not that bad, it was bad, but it's like oh it's not as as I thought like I didn't get hooked
on heroin like right away, it was gradually over time, and you know, I guess one thing,

(51:52):
one positive experience I got from using it, you know, other than feeling good, I learned empathy,
you know, empathy for people who use because man, a lot of us are using this to forget, a lot of us
probably don't want to get help because the label of an addict being labeled as one, being ashamed

(52:16):
by our family, especially in our community, you know, and I feel like when you treat people
of issues with drugs, if you give them more empathy and compassion, they'll have a higher chance of
wanting to get help or being more open as opposed to doing the opposite. So there's this new
drug out there, uh, drink, I don't know too much about it, he talked to us about that.

(52:41):
So drink, drink, uh, drink is is new, I guess if you want to say to the scene right now because it is
getting a lot of like public spotlight because of what's happening, like you see it and
Philadelphia out in Pennsylvania, they have like, you know, the walking zombies, right, or like the
people are standing straight up and people are like, I don't understand how this is happening,

(53:01):
they have like these crazy, necrotizing wounds on their arms and stuff like that, but drink
spin around for a while, but drink is actually um called xylosine, it's actually a veterinary
tranquilizer. So it's found usually it's with illicit drug supply, so you normally wouldn't take it
by itself. It's usually adulterated with some sort of combination and most frequently right now it's

(53:25):
with fentanyl. It can be added to other illicit drugs for sure, but it's been like like I said,
dominating with fentanyl specifically right now. It can be injected, inhaled, swallowed, or like
snorted, so there are multiple ways to take a drink. Most of the times you would mix drugs in general
to enhance the effects of it or reduce the symptoms of something or you know, enhance how the drug

(53:50):
interacts with you. So like if you were talking about a speedball, right, like so that's heroin and
cocaine, you were taking one because it makes you go up and then you take the other because it makes
you go down and vice versa. With xylosine and fentanyl specifically, so the trink combination is um
opioid users find fentanyl to not like last as long as like what heroin lasted like, like you know,

(54:11):
so it doesn't have the same effects that heroin did. So when people are doing trink like so the vent
of the fentanyl and the xylosine, it kind of gives it legs and has a little bit more of a similar
makeup when they're doing them together. So it has that similar effect. So that's kind of why they're
doing it together. But it's really dangerous because it doesn't respond to opioid overdose

(54:32):
reversal drugs like naloxone. And it is a, it's a depressant so it does slow and stop the breathing
kind of like how fentanyl already does to and any other opioid when you go through an opioid-related
overdose. But it can, it doesn't react to that so that's why it's so dangerous because you can't
reverse that overdose. And it's also known to, it's also known to like slow breathing and like heart rate

(54:57):
and you're like and lower your blood pressure. So since it's a depressant, it can cause like drowsiness,
the sleepy, like you know, like extreme fatigue. It can increase the risks of overdose with fentanyl
specifically because they're both depressants and it also causes that those necrotizing wounds
like I was talking about. So the reason why those happen especially with IV drug users, if they're

(55:19):
using drink, it causes like vasoconstriction. So it like impairs the healing process for people who
might be using intravenously or frequently. So they'll have like these necrotizing wounds in the
soft tissue and they'll start to keep going. Then they might even need to get amputated or they'll
have really gnarly abscesses and stuff like that on their arms or their feet depending where they
inject. So it is very very, it is a very very potent combination of drugs when it's adulterated,

(55:45):
especially with something like fentanyl. So it's not like I said, it's not new, but it is making its
way around the states right now and very specifically it's very heavy hitting in Philadelphia.
Right. Well, yeah, thank you for sharing because I've heard about it only, like I only know a little
bit some pieces, but I don't realize it was a veterinary tranquilizer. I don't realize like it helps

(56:12):
lengthen the lifespan of like your high, but it does have a lot of negative effects and for those
for wondering, it's like, well, you see all these abscesses and all these things on your body,
like why can't you stop? Again, going back to its addiction. It's like once you're addicted,
if you're addicted to a drug, it's like, it's all you care about and you know, a lot of times you don't

(56:35):
always make the best decisions, but I like with arm reduction, it helps you kind of guide you and
also take care of you in your journey because again, I now I'm clean, but arm reduction was like the
the bridge to using to getting clean because I realize at the end it's like, yeah, I'm so glad

(56:59):
that arm reduction is there because it helped keep me safe. Like some of my friends are still
using sometimes back in the day, I would mail them like fentanyl strip tests is like, okay, I know you
use, I'm not here to tell you to stop. I want you to have fun, but I want you to be safe, so that was
my way of showing love to them. Here's some strip tests. I know you party, take care. So for me,

(57:22):
it was like, okay, arm reduction was there for me like when I was using, but then it got to a point
where I was like, okay, I'm using not to have fun anymore. I'm using because I have issues at anxiety,
I have issues with my past, and I can't handle my emotions. I'm going to try to get clean. So I see
arm reduction for those, you know, as a as a bridge to getting clean or you might not have, maybe you

(57:47):
might not need to get clean, maybe it's not your you don't want to, that's okay, but it can be also
for people who recreational users, you know, like who go to raves when they're around and
want to party and take Molly, you get educated so you know what to take it or not to take.
For sure, and you know, I think that the big thing with it though too, with just in general,

(58:13):
with any drug is knowing what to do when someone does over-amp, overdose anything like that,
and how you can take care of your friends or family, anybody, even strangers, you know what you mean,
like if you're out of rave, if you're at anything like a show, if you're at a bar, and you walk into the
bathroom and someone's passed out, knowing what to do is the best thing that you can, especially,
and that's why that drug education isn't there, you know what I mean, like they're not teaching it

(58:37):
unless you go to something like an organization like ours to help you teach what you should be doing
in these situations. Right, because Darren never taught you that, like what do you do if you
see somebody overdosing, you know, Darren never taught you that. I'm very familiar with the movie,
what's it called, man, it was a good movie, shoot. Well pretty much what happened was

(58:59):
pretty much like these kids were partying and their, one of their friends was overdosing,
they didn't know what to do, so they just like dropped them off at like an emergency room and just
dipped. I forget which movie it was, it was like in the really 2000s, but yeah. Yeah, no, and that's

(59:20):
you, and you hear a lot of those horror stories even aside from the movies, that's the kind of stuff
before Naloxone access was available. People were doing things like that, they were like, they didn't
want their friend to die, but they didn't want to be involved, so they would drop them off in the
front of the emergency room, like not even bring them inside, you know, they call 911 and leave,
like that type of stuff, so that's the kind of, you know, culture that we've kind of built around,

(59:42):
because so much stigma goes around drug use, that we don't do the right thing and we're so scared
of what's going to happen, whether it was criminal justice or what's going to happen, you know, with a
medical bill from going to the, like the emergency room we're getting in an ambulance, there are so many
barriers like to any kind of care that you need to receive as someone who you use drugs. Yeah, and I

(01:00:04):
think learning or having Narcan on you or just knowing what to do or seeing signs, knowing the signs
of overdose can help out, it's potentially life saving, I have a buddy of mine, she was partying and
she overdosed and luckily said what had Narcan reversed. Also what I learned about Narcan too, so
what it does is, you know, you go into overdose from opioids and then you take it, you kind of like

(01:00:31):
wake up, but within like an hour or so you need to go to like a medical facility and get treated
because I heard it like it doesn't last forever, you don't just like, it's not like a, I don't know,
you don't like it, where's off, is that right? Yeah, it does. It has a very short life, it's about 20 to 90
minutes for an unlocksone specifically, and it depends also on what they took, how much they took, all

(01:00:55):
that stuff, if they were mixing and matching drugs, so it's not like always going to be 20 to 90 minutes,
we've even heard people be like, I know they took a bunch of fent, it's going to be like,
fucking five minutes, you know what I mean? It varies, it varies, it's situational, it's circumstantial,
but it is short acting, it's not some miracle recovery drug for people who use opioids, you don't
give it to them and all of a sudden they never want drugs again, like, no, I mean, they'll be pissed off,

(01:01:19):
like when you Narcan them, you know what I mean? Because they're in withdrawal, but it's not something
that's going to change the makeup of their life after that, like and make them reach recovery or
never touch drugs again, once again, like I said, so it's definitely something completely different,
and it's a tool that could be used to save someone's life, so I kind of compare it, it's like the CPR
of opioid overdose, you know what I mean? It's the thing that you do until the professionals get there.

(01:01:44):
Right, I've been playing a lot of Final Fantasy VII a lot, so it's not like a Phoenix down, where like
you're guys unconscious and you use it and then they go back to life, they do, but it's definitely
like a short acting thing, and you definitely need to go to like a hospital and get fitted in all that.
I think that's our episode. Thank you so much, April. Thank you for having me chat to me.

(01:02:09):
Very important stuff, especially with everything going on and people who are listening, who are users,
or trying to get help or just, you know, got clean, hopefully this resonates with you.
Yeah, so I think the last question too, I forgot to ask, like what is like a new path? What are
the services I'll provide for the chat? Okay, so in the lock zone, Narcan, it is something,

(01:02:37):
first of all, actually I want to say we want to try and start steering the way from saying Narcan
in general, just because that's the brand name of the medication. It is the biggest brand name that
is manufactured right now for sure in the United States, but there are multiple brands like Revive,
EBSIO, all kinds of other brands have now come out. So we don't want people to get confused and be like,

(01:02:59):
oh, Narcan, the lock zone, but now I heard of Revive or EBSIO. No lock zone is the active ingredient
in the medication and it's no lock zone hydrochloride. So addressing it by its name, so like the analogy
for me would be like everyone always thinks Tylenol, but acetaminophen is the active, is the ingredient,
right? I be profan, Advil. Like so this is Narcan, the lock zone. So they're the same thing, so we want

(01:03:23):
to try to get away from using brand name specific, so people don't get confused, but whether someone says
the lock zone, Narcan Revive, all of them are the same medication and they're all in a lock zone hydrochloride.
It is safe, it's effective, it can be, it's non-addictive, it's been used for decades,
paramedics and doctors have used it since the 70s. When someone goes through an opioid overdose,

(01:03:48):
it looks like they're not breathing. So the thing about this is, and a lot of people have a big
misconception specifically about an lock zone or a hesitation, right, when it comes to wanting to save
someone's life, and that's because they're like, what if I make their condition worse? What if it's
a coke overdose? What if it's a meth-overamping? What if it's heart attack stroke, epilepsy? Any of
those things, the best part about a lock zone and trying to revive someone is that if you give someone

(01:04:13):
a lock zone that is not going through an overdose, it is not going to harm them, and that's because
a lock zone is very specific to a receptor in the brain, which the opioids are very specific to
that same receptor. So that's why opioids are so nice also, is because it fits on those specific
receptors in the brain that, for euphoria, pleasure and reward, right, that's the receptors it takes over.

(01:04:35):
So if you're using it in a medical sense, opioids are really great for this receptor because it's
euphoric here. If you're using it for pain, it's taking the pain away, right? So when you're getting
too much of that, it slows and stops the breathing because those receptors are so heavily taken over.
So if there's no opioid for the naloxone to attack, it's like water because it's for that specific

(01:05:01):
receptor in the brain. And so when you inject someone with naloxone, it takes the drug off of that
receptor in the brain temporarily. So this is back again to temporary 20 to 90 minutes max that the
naloxone life lasts while you're trying to save someone's life. And the reason why it works and
why it's temporary is only because it has a stronger affinity than a lock zone itself has a stronger

(01:05:23):
affinity to the receptors in the brain than the opioids themselves. So it knocks the opioid off
the receptor temporarily and it reminds the person to breathe. So once again, it goes back to not breathing.
It's not cardiac arrest. It doesn't have anything to do with the heart. So when you're recognizing
someone going through an opioid overdose, it's going to look like they're not breathing for the most

(01:05:44):
part. Then you're going to give them the naloxone. Actually, I brought my kit just to make sure.
We always give out these little harm reduction kits and just to let you know, just for the general
public, as soon as we started putting them in cute bags and making stickers and putting little goodies
in them, harm reduction became more palatable all of a sudden. And people were like, I don't need that.
I don't know anyone who uses drugs, stigmatizing once again. I don't want to do that. Like, I'm not

(01:06:07):
going to save someone's life. But as soon as we put them in these baggies, people started going ham
and being like, I could definitely do that. And it's like, yeah, that's crazy because all I did was
put in a clear bag and then all of a sudden harm reduction became cute. But you know what, whatever
works. If it gets people to want to turn this direction, I'm all for it, you know. But each
Narcan kit specifically, when it comes to Narcan, they have these nasal atomizers and it's two of

(01:06:32):
these doses in each kit. And there's four milligrams each. And so you want to make sure that when you're
using these kits, that we're not injecting people who are really high. And for people who use drugs
often, or if they are actively in their use, a big thing is you want to say is you don't want to do
things like take away their high. Because first of all, you don't want to take away their high,

(01:06:53):
they're going to be agitated. You're going to put them in withdrawal. But second of all, you're going
to run out of supply to save them if they actually do end up overdosing. So we want to make sure we save
the naloxone for when an overdose actually happens. So you're not running out of supply. So you can
keep the overdose reversal going. So since it's short acting, they can definitely OD again after

(01:07:14):
that 20 to 90 minutes. So you want to make sure you have those kits to keep going until the ambulance
gets there. It has been streamlined, which is fortunate, but unfortunate. Streamline because of the
amount of overdoses that have been happening in the United States. But fortunate because it makes it
easier and has less of a hard, it gives people less of a hard time to inject somebody through the

(01:07:37):
nose with a nasal atomizer versus a needle in the leg intramuscular layer or something like that.
But it's a lot better and it's a lot, it's the same effect effectiveness as as intravenous in all
that stuff. It will get to that person's, to that person's receptors either way. So there's no one
that's better than the other. But it's super safe and it's the easiest thing and you want to make sure

(01:07:59):
you call 911 before you start the process. Let them know where you're located. A lot of people are
scared of calling 911 because they might have had previous convictions for any kind whether it was
drugs or not. But we do encourage it still just because it triggers the good Samaritan law,
which means that you as the rescuer and the person you're rescuing are free from a

(01:08:20):
restaurant carceration. So we want to make sure we tell people about the good Sam law. So if a police
car came with that ambulance and they're being like, let me look through your shit. I want to see
your purse, let me go through your car, all of that stuff. Good Sam be persistent, know your rights,
and the good Sam law protects you and the person that you're rescuing from a restaurant carceration.
And then you administer Naloxone does not matter how many, but we wait one minute in between each

(01:08:44):
dose to see if it's effective. You take a step back for yourself because they could wake up trying
to punch you, vomiting, they could be urinating themselves. You want to keep yourself safe to make
sure that you are able to continue to save them and then you wait for emergency medical services to
arrive. So it's a really good thing to have on you. A lot of people try to deny me taking them

(01:09:05):
in the lock zone kit because I don't know anyone who uses that. I don't want to take resources away
from someone else. We are part of a county program that helps us supply whoever we can and
Sandy Eagle County. And there's a lot of other programs like ours all across the country that
allow you to give this out to people. So there are no resources that are being taken away from

(01:09:26):
everyone. It is better to have and not need than need and not have like a fire extinguisher or an
AED machine for people that have heart attacks. It is in the should be in the exact same category
as that. So I guess that's the lock zone light and how to use it and what it's about.
Right. Yeah. Thank you for going in depth with that because I had no idea about the one minute thing.

(01:09:52):
I had no idea that it has only a couple like sprays in there. I had no idea that what it does
generally kills your high and that he's stepped back. Might be come swinging or might be agitated.
I had no idea because people always say yeah, lock zone saves lock zone. How do you say it?
No, lock zone. Lock zone saves lives. Yep. But like what do I do? What's it about?

(01:10:16):
Yeah. How? Yeah. You put up their nose but like what do I do? So thank you for going in depth with
the time period that 20 to 90 minutes because that's really important because somebody might just
like get back to getting higher again or it's good to know that okay we got to call emergency services.

(01:10:38):
I had no idea about the good semi-retinue law because yeah people are a spheticol and I'm
wondering for those reasons or just they might they don't want to be around the police come so
that's a really good thing to know. Good for people to be aware of. And yeah it's just good
it's just good information, harm reduction, education. Yep. So that's what lock zone does. So what

(01:11:04):
is a new path? What else what services do you guys provide? We provide a very very wide array of
services. I mean we originally started as a advocacy organization so basically it was
it was my executive director my boss and two other parents it was it's a parent driven organization

(01:11:26):
as well which I mean it takes a lot of care whether you're a parent or not a family member of
somebody affected with addictive illness is a very hard road and a very hard struggle to make sure
whether you're supportive or not to take care of these you're your loved ones with substance use
disorder right? So it did start with three parents my boss Gretchen Bergman, Sylvia Lieberant,

(01:11:48):
Tom O'Donnell they met in a support group because you know you need you need like people to get through
these types of things and it's you know you're you know you're in a 12 step program or you're with
people with it in a 12 step program the serenity prayer really resonated with my executive director so
it's you know we need the serenity to accept the things we cannot change and the the courage to

(01:12:14):
change things we can yeah right yeah and so she was just like okay well the courage to change
things we can it prompted her into speaking out completely about the nature of addictive illness
and it and to address substance use disorder as a public health issue versus a criminal justice
program so that propelled our organization in 1999 to become an organization so we are in our 26

(01:12:36):
year originally advocacy so changing laws helping you know talk about legislation testifying in
Sacramento to talk about these devastating criminal justice bills for things with people who use drugs
so we reduce the stigma associated with substance use disorder and advocate for therapeutic rather
than punitive drug policy and over the 26 years that we've been around we have been instrumental in

(01:13:01):
many large drug policy reform bills in California so we've aided in the passing of prop 36 which is
substance abuse crime prevention act and that was treatment versus incarceration like you know really
truly treatment versus incarceration prop 47 which was the Faith Neighborhoods and Schools Act
which made certain low level nonviolent drug offenses or crimes go or like petty theft and things

(01:13:27):
like that go from felonies to misdemeanors so that protected a lot of people who were not committing
crazy crimes and then prop 64 which is the adult use of marijuana so making marijuana legal in
California very instrumental in all of those and then the naloxone access bill of course in 2014
which we helped past in California to make sure and we testified my my boss testified in California

(01:13:48):
to say that its parents who usually are the first responders like I said earlier to maybe their loved
one their child who might overdose in the home so that naloxone should be accessible to them
to be able to carry so naloxone is our biggest program technically in San Diego we are
part of a large scale distribution for naloxone and fentanyl test strip specifically

(01:14:11):
you know we we have gone through that but now we have gone through training over 31,000
individuals in San Diego County how to recognize and respond to an opioid related overdose
and then we have reported a we've reported 3422 opioid overdose reversals through our program

(01:14:35):
specifically and seven dogs on top of that 3422 people have been able to save their animals as well
so naloxone works for dogs and cats I think it was four cats we've had reversals for two
but 3422 is 10% of 31,000 but that's 10% of people who have come back to us to tell us that they
used the naloxone we gave them and that it worked and it saved someone's life so these programs work

(01:15:00):
it is harm reduction we are reversing that number so other than naloxone distribution
we have gone out into the community outside of just parent groups and things like that we've
trained sober living homes detox facilities clinics bars restaurants like I said we've gone to
music festivals we've tabled at like we've tabled at resource fairs and things like that

(01:15:23):
wherever the community asks for us to be we will be there and and give out these resources
we also run a weekly art program that one is my baby specifically as coming from the arts
originally we've teamed up with a building called the brown building and it's a radical street wellness
mutual aid building that has been in the community for the past at least 10 years and we host weekly

(01:15:47):
art mites at this building and each week participants can learn a new skill and so with those new skills
we've done painting workshops I let a sewing workshop we let a DJ series where you can learn to be a
DJ and many more structured events that like have to do with improving specific skills or learning a

(01:16:07):
new skill so we've done a lot of that when it comes to the arts because we believe art and advocacy
go hand in hand and art and art is therapeutic you know what he means over people and recovery it
could mean a lot or for people who are affected by addictive illness whether it's themselves or
maybe a parent that escape for them to be able to create during those tough times is very helpful so

(01:16:27):
we definitely want to provide that to the community and our organization also offers multiple meetings
like smart which is self-management and recovery training meetings mara meetings which are
medication assisted recovery anonymous meetings and that's like an AA or an NA meeting and that's

(01:16:47):
very specific to medication assisted recovery anonymous or medication assisted recovery people because
they are using peopinorphine or suboxone and methadone a lot of them feel that they are shamed
sometimes in an AA or an environment because they're still using a substance technically to help
them maintain their recovery so mara is really important to that landscape just because they are

(01:17:12):
still stigmatized within other use you know what do you mean um um so mara is something we offer
and then co-occurring support groups for people and families who have co-occurring disorder which is
like substance use disorder with like a mental illness you know so we offer that as well and we
offer much more but those are our main like services so we definitely try to provide as much as we

(01:17:35):
can to the community thank you so much for that that's welcome y'all do a lot of great for the community
that is really awesome where can we find a new path online on instagram sure so a new path.org
is our website and on instagram that's probably the best most up-to-date way of seeing where we are

(01:17:59):
because our calendars are up there and everything our calendars are up there and um like all of our
posts for all of the nights the different art mites we host any events rallies um one-to-one educational
series we offer a lot of those two like we're actually doing a film screening on Thursday coming
up in San Diego so all of that is real time and you'll see that on our instagram and that's probably

(01:18:21):
the best place and that's new path at new path Narcan project.
Sounds good well thank you so much for your time April i hope you have a great weekend and hopefully
the listeners got something and if you're definitely in San Diego San Diego area and these can relate
don't hit the map check out the website

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