Exploring The Healing Powers Of Ketamine Therapy Ft. Nora Rahimian

In this conversation, Nora shares her personal journey with ketamine therapy, discussing its therapeutic effects on mental health conditions such as depression, anxiety, and PTSD. The discussion delves into how ketamine works in the brain, the importance of ongoing treatment, and the societal stigma surrounding drug use. Nora reflects on her experiences, the impact of ketamine on her daily life, and the significance of support systems in mental health recovery. The conversation emphasizes the need for a more compassionate understanding of addiction and mental health treatment.

Chapters 
(00:00) Introduction and Valentine's Day Special
(03:33) Understanding Ketamine Therapy
06:24) The Mechanism of Ketamine in Mental Health
(09:47) Personal Experiences with Ketamine
(12:35) The Importance of Context in Ketamine Use
(15:32) The Journey to Ketamine Therapy
(18:39) The Role of Ketamine in Healing
(21:29) Ongoing Support and Therapy
(24:42) The Impact of Anxiety and PTSD
(27:30) Conclusion and Reflections on Mental Health
(30:50) Understanding Mental Health and Addiction
(38:42) Experiencing Ketamine Therapy
(49:58) The Impact of Ketamine on Daily Life
(58:06) Exploring the Future of Treatment

Nora Rahimian Linktree:
https://linktr.ee/norarahimian

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Episode Transcript

(00:00):
Hey there! My name is Vaughn and this is the Vaughncast Show. This is a podcast that focuses on

(00:08):
mental health, breaking societal stigmas, harm reduction, addiction and recovery. If you like what
you hear, subscribe and leave a review on Spotify and Apple Podcasts. Also, follow the podcast
Instagram @thevaughncast show where I post video content from the show. All right, let's get into

(00:33):
today's episode. Peter, okay, welcome to the Vaughncast show. Hope everybody is doing well today.
I got Nora back on the show. How are you today Nora? I'm so glad to be back.
Good. Happy Valentine's Day. Yeah, oh my gosh. Happy Valentine's Day. We love love.

(00:57):
We love love. Yeah. Do you anything special or doing anything later today?
Well, I had ketamine, which we'll talk a lot about. So, I'm kind of like in my field goods and then
I have my dog with me. So, I have a Valentine's Day present and he's got a play date and it's a
dog's life for real. That's a little cool. Well, I bought myself some pizza. Yes.

(01:24):
I'm apple pizza. Cool. So, you just came out of a ketamine treatment? I did. Yeah.
Oh, awesome. So, we get to really hear about how it is and you just came off of it. That's pretty
cool. So, it's funny. My coworker asked me a couple days ago. You have a Valentine's? I said,

(01:45):
yeah, I do myself. And one way we practice self love is, or I practice self love is attending therapy.
And today we'll be talking about ketamine therapy. It kind of trips me out because a couple of
years ago, you showed me how to look for a therapist because at the time I was looking for a therapist

(02:09):
for my addiction. And it's kind of full circle now because you're trying a new type of therapy,
ketamine therapy. Yeah. It's, you know, as someone who's always been fairly straight edge, like,
I didn't play with drugs. You know, I grew up in dare where they were like ketamine is like the

(02:30):
party treat. So, it's been an interesting, yeah, it's been like a full circle, not like a full circle,
almost like an inverted circle moment. But also it, you know, I think a lot about how we get told
what drugs are good and what drugs are bad and what we're, you know, anyways, we can get into all of this.

(02:53):
But yeah, I also like literally, it's three o'clock right now. I got out of my session at two. So,
you're getting the like, fresh, fresh kind of, you know, I feel a little, I'm just going to name it.
Like I feel a little vulnerable because I feel like open and post ketamine. But I also wanted us

(03:18):
to schedule it this way so that people could like see it a little bit. And I feel really safe with you.
So, you know, it's funny. I have a, I have a lyric in a song. I never fell in love, but I fell in the
K-hole. K-holes are fun. Can be. So, for those who don't know, I did a podcast with two individuals,

(03:40):
Austin and Candace, who administered ketamine therapy. That's time to show 236. If you want to get
one, no, no more about that one. But today, I want to interview Nora, who I'm known for a few years. So,
it's a little different. And so, for those who don't know ketamine treatment, essentially,

(04:00):
it's a medical treatment that involves the use of ketamine. This is so, this is associated
anesthetic to a dressment to health conditions like depression, anxiety, and PTSD,
and chronic pain. It was originally used as an anesthetic, but ketamine has gained a lot of attention
in recent years for its rapid acting and eye-depressant effects, especially for individuals who have

(04:24):
not responded to traditional treatments. And how it works is effects, a glutamate system in the brain,
which plays a crucial, a crucial role in mood regulation and neuroplasticity. Unlike traditional
and under presence, which primarily target serotonin, ketamine promotes the growth of new

(04:44):
neural connect connections, potentially reversing damage caused by long-term stress or trauma.
Many patients experience a rapid improvement in symptoms, sometimes or then hours. Unlike SSRIs,
which can take weeks to work. I just want to get that met that standard definition is out of the way.

(05:05):
But essentially that's how ketamine is and how it works in a nutshell. Somebody asked in the
story, which you suggested, post your real on Instagram, Share in a Story. And a couple of people
ask questions. I was one of the questions. How it works. Yeah. Okay. First of all, I'm so excited

(05:26):
that people ask questions. I love the questions. And I, and partly because I think we, you know,
and someone goes through cancer or some kind of physical illness, we're like, wow, we're so proud of
you. We're rooting for you. But we don't have the same public support around people who are working
through a mental health thing. And so part of why I wanted to be, I wanted to share and kind of

(05:52):
document my own journey was because I want to celebrate our mental health journeys and like
destigmatize it. So I love that people ask questions. And I, I'll say it again now as people who are
going to watch this or listen to this in the future, like ask the questions because the more we talk
about it, the less scary it becomes. And I think for me, just how you were talking about how ketamine

(06:15):
works, the cool thing for me about ketamine is that like if traditional antidepressants just
throw like extra feel good chemicals at your brain, ketamine rebuilds the infrastructure
of the brain so that it can receive those feel good chemicals. So like if you have anxiety or

(06:37):
depression or PTSD, what that does is it changes the pathways in the brain parts of the brain,
become less active or parts of the brain become more active. And so ketamine, it's almost like the
parts of the brain that have gone to sleep because of PTSD trauma, et cetera, et cetera, PTSD is trauma.
But you know what I mean? ketamine like wakes it back up and rebuilds the neuro pathways, which is

(07:02):
what the neuroplasticity is so that when you do take an SSRI or antidepressant, it has somewhere to
go. Like when I first started, I just pictured like a bunch of people building railroad tracks in my
brain. But that's, and that's why the other common mis, sorry, I'm just jumping over, I'm going to say
this then of the one of the common misconceptions about ketamine is that it's the high that actually

(07:28):
is like what's fixing the brain, what I'm quote, fixing the brain, but it's not the high. You can fall
asleep during a treatment, but the chemicals are doing what they're doing in your brain. And like,
I think it's up to like 24 to 48 hours after a treatment, like it's still working its magic in your
brain. So it's not the dissociative or psych, psych, psychedelic effect. Thank you.

(08:00):
It's fun, but that's actually not that's like extra credit. It's how the drug works with your
body's like bionurology that is getting to the root cause, which I think is for me what has made
ketamine so exciting compared to other things I've tried. Thank you for that. That is a really cool

(08:23):
visualization of how to talk about it where you said picture railroads being built in your brain like
to places that have been dormant or just not working as opposed to the high that makes you like,
it's not just feeling good, it's more of like what it does after because I can see it, they

(08:44):
arguing or saying it, what you're just essentially getting high on ketamine, but it's more than that
to treatment. And then I'm kind of thinking like, man, I used to do ketamine. Somebody asked like,
do you use ketamine? I use ketamine in the past, not anymore. Not for treatment, but for
recreationally used. And I kind of, I mean, like there were times where I just I used it,

(09:07):
but I just listened to music and mellowed out. And I don't know, I can't remember really if,
I guess like I wasn't the reason I did ketamine wasn't for the reason you did ketamine.
It wasn't for treatment purposes, but that sounds really cool. I wonder if I like had a different
mindset like, okay, I'm going to use this and try to like learn something from it as opposed to just

(09:30):
doing it for fun. And it was fun. I've had a lot of fun times using it, but I really like how
it's also be used to treatment to health issues. Same with MDMA, same with psychedelics. They do
have those properties. And I used to do a lot more MDMA back then. I'm like, dang, I can see how it works

(09:52):
because you do feel empathetic and you do talk about your feelings. And when using a therapy,
in a professional therapeutic session, I can see the benefits of how it can really help. But again,
I really like that visualization of, you know, you see like, railroads being built in your brain.

(10:13):
So whatever else you're taking as a place to go, that's pretty cool.
Yeah, it's, and I think that's part of the durability of ketamine is that even after like,
you know, a K-hole asks. So like the way I do it, which is the esketamine, which is a nasal spray,
you know, like flow nays, you just like puff, puff. Only lasts a couple hours. But I'll feel good for

(10:42):
a whole week after. And it's because even though the high has worn off, the work that's happening
in my brain, right? Like those new neuro pathways have like sparked and the new things. And so that's
part of the durability of it is that even after the high, the thing that's been fixed has now been fixed.

(11:05):
And I think about people, you know, this like in the 60s and 70s, like this was a whole thing about
acid. People were doing acid recreationally, but they were doing it for healing purposes. And I'm sure
like even for you, it had some therapeutic effects, whether or not you intended it because
that's just what the drug is. But then, you know, then we talk about like the contraindediction

(11:32):
with other drugs and all of that kind of stuff. Like I can't smoke weed and do ketamine. I'm not
supposed to do have any THC or CDV the whole time I'm on this treatment, for example.
Interesting. I mixed it often. Maybe that's what kind of like
chilled off the other beneficial things. I remember he did it to like come down off of coke.

(12:00):
Kind of melancholy out or we did it with Molly. Don't drink with ketamine because it makes you
throw up. I remember like me and some buddies were doing ketamine. No, we're part of drinking. And I
had no idea that you don't mix those two. I felt so bad because I had some ketamine and I like,
Hey man, let's take a bump in the bathroom. Let's do this and do that. I felt so bad for myself and

(12:25):
everybody else because a lot of us throw out bathrooms. We kind of ruined it. But, um,
but yeah, I didn't know that you can't mix the two together. That's interesting. Yeah, and the clinic I go to
excuse me. They drug tests some not everybody like on like I don't know how they decide, but

(12:49):
they drug tests for marijuana because the effects can be really rough. Actually, today I asked my
my doctor. I was like from a harm reduction perspective. Like what does it look like to use marijuana
and ketamine at the same time? And she was like, we strongly even from a harm reduction perspective

(13:11):
don't recommend it because it can really undo a lot of what the ketamine does. And definitely,
you don't want to be on like you don't want to be marijuana high and also do ketamine at the
same time. So from what she was telling, and I haven't looked into it too much myself, but from what

(13:31):
she was telling me it's they should really say stay separate because of how it if like they
how they interact with your brain chemistry is not collaborative. That makes sense. My total sense.
So what made you decide to look into ketamine therapy? I mean, yeah, did someone tell you about it?

(13:57):
Did you find it online? You know, I... So the first time I did it, I had a friend who was very,
very like drug friendly. And the way like his experiences with ketamine just seemed so

(14:20):
healing and open, you know, and all these things. And I was like, that's like a bad, that's a bad drug.
You know, like I learned my dare lessons. And he would just be like, well, just come sit with me,
come watch me, come. And so I think there was something that made me just feel really comfortable
with it. And then we very intent and I was I was going through a rough like, and so I was looking for

(14:44):
something I was having a hard time finding like a good therapist. So all my traditional like go-to
things weren't working. And so this friend took me like basically like guided me through
their recreational but therapeutic ketamine experience. And it was like 12 years of therapy in one

(15:07):
night. Like I felt sometimes people will describe ketamine as like when you turn your computer on
and turn it back off and everything just magically works again. That's kind of what it felt like.
It was like the desktop of my computer screen just got feared and everything got filed. And
I was like, wow, like in one night these things that I had really been like struggling with cleared

(15:32):
themselves like I worked through it. And at the time, right, I was thinking it was the high and not
the chemical stuff. And so I did that once. And then I mentioned it maybe like a year later,
I mentioned it to my psychiatrist. And he was like, you know, you can do this. I can write you a prescription.
And I kind of freaked me out. I sat on it for a year. I was like, I don't know. And then I was like

(15:57):
on Reddit one night and was like, you know what? My insurance is going to pay for this. What do I
have to lose? And like, excuse me, for folks who struggle with anxiety or depression or PTSD,
I'm sure y'all will understand. Like sometimes it gets so bad that you can't do anything. And sometimes
it gets so bad that you're like, fuck it. I have nothing to lose. So like, let me try this one thing.

(16:22):
And that was the kind of head space I was at where I was like, fuck it. Like either it's going to
fuck me up or if it's going to work. Let's just see what happens. And so that's really what like got me
like led me to ketamine as a treatment choice. And really frankly, I was just, I mean,

(16:46):
I've been depressed since I was like eight years old. I was constantly in fight or fly. I have
really complex trauma and like PTSD. My anxiety, my anxiety had anxiety at this point. And so I was also
just really, really tired of working so hard just to be okay. And I know I'm sure a lot of people

(17:09):
can relate to that because I hear it from other folks all the time. And so it was it was that. It was
like where I was at with my mental health, all the kind of personal stuff I was going through. And then
this psychiatrist who was like, you know what, I think this can really help you. And frankly,
it was free with my insurance. Like if I had to pay for, you know, like there's a privilege in that

(17:30):
that also enabled me to get this to access this treatment. And so I was like, fuck like,
what do I have to lose? Right. Wow, I didn't know even depressed for that long. I don't even know,
like I take an end to presence and I don't know if the whole time of my drug use career that I've

(17:55):
been doing it because I felt depressed and I didn't really know what else to do. Like I was
introduced to these substances. And some of them really click with me. And he got to the parents
like, well, let's just feel good. It kind of wonder like if I knew about therapy or went to therapy
that maybe I don't know. I would have known a lot sooner because I found out I had depression

(18:21):
when I was 34, which was three years ago. So yeah, I'm really glad that you found that. And definitely
privilege like I have a buddy or insurance and coverage which can't go as frequent, but she's stoked
to go. She went to one session and she said, it was pretty cool. And yeah, it's helping her out.

(18:42):
And I'm glad it's helping you out. You said like 12, like you've experienced like 12 years of
therapy in one night. That's really cool. I remember, okay, I remember like one time I was doing
kind of even a friend and she kind of opened up about, you know, we had a, we were like drifting
apart. We were really close, but just, you know, life happens. People move to different places. And

(19:06):
I had a difficult time adjusting to that. And she didn't have as much of a difficult time,
but she kind of understood it. She never really mentioned it up until that night when we were both
on Tendamine. And we just had some talks about it. And, you know, it felt really cool. So I really
good to do that. Yeah, for me, sometimes when I did Tendamine, I was watching like music videos. I

(19:32):
felt like I was in music video or just I felt like, I don't know, something about it. I did feel like
this, everything's cool or like, oh, I figured things out, you know, but maybe I think what it was,
I did so much that maybe like it kind of, it kind of negated the effects of it. I did so much.

(19:53):
But there were like, it's in pieces of like, oh, that's why I'm doing this. That's why I'm doing that.
It was this really cool, like self-awareness thing, but I didn't have the mindset of healing. I just
did it for fun. Not that I can go back. I mean, I could go back and just try it again and see like,
huh, you know, but I can see how that can be a slippery slope. But I'm really glad that

(20:19):
Kedamine is being for this and the stigma of it. I mean, it is a party drug. It's fun, but I remember
when I first introduced it in this like horse tranquilizer. Isn't it like, why would you take it? Why
am I taking horse tranquilizer and then I had some friends who were more experienced. Now it's not
like horse tranquilizer, dude. You know, it's not as bad as you think and I tried it. I'm like,

(20:43):
oh, that's bad as I thought. They're not saying like, I can don't know, I'm using drugs, but I think,
like you said, with the dare program, it really demonizes the use of drugs. And I get it. I get
how drugs have me scary, but when you do all or nothing kind of thing, a black and white kind of thing,

(21:04):
it doesn't leave room for like, you know, if you do do it, then what does that make you kind of thing?
You know, I feel like it demonizes the drugs and the users, you know, use like, I think path then
it was like the say no to drugs. And like I saw in a video game arcade cabinets like
for user like drug users are losers or something like that. So I remember that being.

(21:29):
Not the big campaign or they would have cracked the egg and be like, this is your brain on drugs
and they like scramble the egg. I mean, I do want to be clear a little bit that it's not like
a magic solution. Right? Like they, they, ketamine is one tool, right? Or like one part of

(21:52):
getting healthy along with continuing anti depressants and doing therapy and like doing the work. And
and so like, because I've heard you say a couple times in this conversation, like, about your own
ketamine experience and it's not like a one and done, right? Like it's just on and even when I started

(22:13):
the way they do it is you start with a four week induction period where you're going twice a week
for four weeks because they want to keep the like supply of ketamine in your brain at a level where like
it's rapidly supporting like the brain, the rebuilding is being rapidly supported. And then you go for once

(22:39):
if that if you're if that's working for you and you're having like a positive reaction, then you go
once a week. And depending on how that goes, then they start to taper you off. So it's, it's a solution
that requires like a lot of I've been going. I started in early December. It's February 14th today.

(23:02):
So like two and a half months, right? December, January, half, so two and a half months. And my doctor
keeps reminding me like, you're just getting started. Like we're early in this phase. So it's not,
you know, for folks who have done it recreationally, I don't want folks to be like, well, dang, I did it

(23:23):
and how come it didn't fix me because it's not like a fix. It's not going to fix you. And it is
something that requires kind of ongoing, ongoing access within a context of support because the brain
doesn't exist in a vacuum, right? Like there's so much other stuff happening. And so it's just another

(23:43):
tool in the support system of what's happening up here. Right. I'm glad you said that.
previous people I talked about, we kind of been therapy also said that it's not a one in done. It's not
a magic tool. Yeah. Should they recommend actually going to therapy as well. Yeah. And doing everything

(24:03):
that your therapist tells you to do. It's not like you take this. It's, oh man, I'm cured. You know,
it's a lot deeper than that. I'll say what it does. What it has done for me is a lot of, you know,
like trauma changes the brain, like physically changes the brain. And so things that

(24:27):
like my fight or flight, my anxiety, my always being on edge, like these, these brain responsive
things, I feel like an academy has really helped with that for me. But the result of those things,
right? Like my relationship stuff or my boundaries, attachment, right? Like all the stuff that we all

(24:52):
deal with and like why we go to therapy, ketamine isn't the solution for those things. But it's changed
the playing field. And so like after, you know, like two and a half weeks, I can feel my nervous system
is so much more calm than it was three months ago. I'm not on edge all the time. I'm not hypervigilant

(25:16):
all the time. Does that mean all my other, like I never need to go to therapy again? No. But it
means the work that I do in therapy, I can do from a different place that I was able to do previously.
Wow. Just imagining that feels I'm trying to picture that where my flight, my fighter flight is
and always there, my, you know, always on edge, hypervigilant. I can totally relate with that stuff.

(25:40):
I can see it now with my life, my day to day things, little things. And it's just for those
who experience it, like that must feel good, you know, when you're just not
flapping out about small things or just overthinking as much. I mean, I think that's why I was using
to self-medicate when I was one of the influence. I did not to worry about that stuff. And now that I don't

(26:08):
have, well, that choose not to have access to those drugs anymore, it's, it's rough. It's a little
difficult, you know, I'm what, two years and like a couple months in and I still think of, I still
think about getting high. I don't go through with it, but in times of a fighter flight, when I'm always

(26:29):
on edge, I'm like, damn, it'd be so cool to get high right now. I would love to get high right now.
But I know that it's not going to work out for me the way that I wanted to. So yeah, that's really
cool that it's helping out with those things because I don't know, like little things like that,
just make so much of a difference in your day, you know, for those who deal with anxiety, PCSD,

(26:55):
like, and imagine not having to be always on edge or like hypervigilating that. It's not little
things, right? Like it's not, it's a big thing. Yeah. For people who don't know what it's like,
imagine someone is walking on the paved road with comfy ass sneakers and then being in a constant

(27:19):
state of fighter flight or PTSD feels like, while they're walking on that road, you're trudging through
mud, barefoot with like mud up to your chest and like like it's, so it's not a little thing. And I
think sometimes we dismiss how much that something because we become so used to it, we dismiss like

(27:45):
how much extra labor it requires for us to do things that other people, I was telling my,
my strength the other day, like little things like leaving, getting up my, up from my couch to go to
the grocery store, used to take like, okay, nor like, and now I'm like, oh, I just get up and go to

(28:10):
the store and run the errand. And I, you know, I feel like it's like if you know, you know what that's
like, but these are the kinds of things that the ketamine for me has like, eased up and helped with.
Right. You're definitely right. It's not a little thing, but I think it's just, I'm so
used to thinking, I was just, it's nothing, you know, but actually it does play a big part in my life.

(28:34):
I mean, I always know some always tense. I don't know why, I mean, I know why, but like, I'm always tense.
Like, I'm just noticing that, oh man, like my shoulder's always tense. I go to the massage,
you're like, you're back a super stiff, I crack it and everything. And I know I wasn't always
like that, but I think it happened, whatever, you know, happened like when I was a lot younger,

(28:55):
so it was just like this fight or flight thing, you know, like it, so just not having that or having less
of it is definitely nine day. And I like the comparison you said where you're walking down a road,
comfy sneakers feeling good and versus wearing your knot, you're trudging like your mud is up to your
chest and whatever. Um, definitely. And it's weird. That's a, that's like an interesting comparison

(29:21):
because I always thought like me on drugs versus off drugs. When I was on drugs, I really felt like
everything was okay. Everything was okay, but in reality, I was making a lot worse for myself. I was
the one, you know, in a rough road, like in the trenches, pretty much not realizing I was until I
got off the drugs. Like now, I feel like there was so much anxiety. I already have anxiety, but

(29:49):
I used drugs to escape my anxiety, but I realized by using drugs and abusing them, I was adding a lot
more anxiety to my life. I remember like what it would take just even like you say, well on drugs,
paranoid coming down, like I'm so paranoid to go out of my room sometimes or just like, okay,

(30:10):
it's like myself just to go to the grocery store, I have a headphones on and everything just,
okay, get this, get that minimal interactions with people and everything. I still get that sometimes
to like work or get a grocery store, I like my job, but sometimes just go into the register and just like
seeing a long line in my line, I'm like, okay, take things slowly, you know, I do things like

(30:35):
slowly or skin, skin stuff slowly, put stuff in the back because I know like sometimes when I'm
anxious, which is a lot of times I rough and when I rough, I make mistakes. So yeah, not having that
like, but not having that anxiety level so high that it's really uncomfortable towards like

(30:56):
a little more manageable makes a big like big impact.
Yeah, well, and you know, what we know about mental health and about addiction is that a lot of
people use drugs to self-medicate. And if we had better systemic, structural, and community support

(31:18):
to one, prevent the things that are causing people to need to self-medicate, right? Like the world
sucks. Like it actually makes a lot of sense that a lot of us are anxious. There is no post trauma
because many of us are in trauma with what's happening with ice and the stuff around like trans

(31:38):
kids and reproductive justice and it's just a lot of shit. Like so, and that's just the systemic
stuff we're not even talking about the interpersonal stuff. So, you know, the world is shitty. And so one,
if we were making the world a better place, there would be less of that. And then two, if we had

(31:59):
systems and more community support to identify and support people who were having mental health
struggles and then had the pathways for them to get help and support, then that person would be,
and that's like structurally right, making it accessible, affordable, but also culturally right,

(32:19):
taking away the stigma and normalizing those conversations. So then those people wouldn't need
to self-medicate because there were one, two, three, four, five, whatever other things that could have
caught them and given them that support. And so, and I'm not saying there's no accountability and
addiction or anything like that, but we have to recognize that if people become, if one of the

(32:44):
large reasons people become addicts is that they're self-medicating for things that we couldn't give
them alternative support around, then that's a systemic and cultural and societal failure and not
an individual failure. And we talk about addiction a lot as an individual or moral failure. You're not
a good part, you know, whatever. And that's not it, not only is that not it, it doesn't serve anyone,

(33:11):
it doesn't help anyone who's really trying to get help if that's the perspective that we come at it from.
Right. I totally agree 100% that addicts tend to be demonized and I remember
an active addiction. I definitely kept it under the rug. I mean, I like make jokes about it,
make memes about it, but definitely I was definitely struggling with it. And I think there is definitely

(33:34):
that stigma of like, I don't want to be labeled or seen as an addict or other people because it's
happened to me in the past and it's not fun. It's not good. Unfortunately, now that I have
different set of friends who supported me in addiction and supported me when I decided to get
clean, you know, we're like, you got to stop doing this. It's not good. You know, it's not good. Why

(33:59):
are you doing this? I'm so glad that they never approached it like that because when that happens,
I get defensive. I'm sure other addicts do. But also to use with what you said, yeah, it's so cool. I mean,
I'm only now having having a good job, have good benefits. I'm experiencing how good it is to
have therapy every week or three or like having medication at a low cost. I'm like, damn, this should be

(34:24):
accessible to everybody because I just make sense. I mean, there's so much things going on
that if you're able to get your basic needs covered, especially like mental health,
you'll be able to, to like, to function to live a lot better. You know, and

(34:48):
I do remember back then, it's like, damn, I could go to therapy. I remember I was doing therapy. It was
like, 190 a session. I'm like, damn, that's a lot of money. And it's helping. But I was like, but I'd rather
like get high. I can, you know, it tries, I can buy 190 dollars. And I was like, you know, I know,
I don't do this or there are times where it's like the doctor builds like so high. Oh, wow, like,

(35:12):
it's so high. Like, wow, I'm not going to go, you know, well, and there's, you know, the other component
of it is there's like a racial and a class component around how we think of addiction and who we
think addicts are because if you were popping pills in your, you know, PTA minivan, no one would judge
you the way they would judge you if you're doing fentanyl. And you know what I'm saying? Like, there's

(35:37):
clear racial class and some gendered stuff around that. And so what's been interesting as I've,
and I'm like, I said, I've been really open about ketamine and I'm open to like, doesn't matter who
I'm like, I'm going to ketamine. The response to it has been really overwhelmingly positive. I was

(35:59):
kind of ready to get a lot of people be like, oh, ew, what? That's a terrible don't do drugs. It's
bad for you. But more and more people are like, oh, I'm so curious about that. What they're curious.
And I think part of for me, what that suggests is that no one's really okay right now. And

(36:19):
when someone finds something that works, people want it. We're all looking for the thing that's
going to make us feel better because people are really struggling. And so that's been really
interesting because I was so like I said, I was so ready for the critique and the judgment
because of what so many of us were raised to think of ketamine. And instead the response has been

(36:42):
like, if it's working, tell me about it because I also need something that's working. And I think
that's, you know, I think that's an important thing to recognize where when you have a society,
especially you know, and I'm talking about the US context, when you have a society where so many
people are not okay, we got to do better. Like we're doing something wrong. We got to do better.

(37:05):
And we can't put ketamine in the water. So like, let's fix some things because we deserve,
like we deserve better. No one should be struggling so much. Yeah, I'm like a Michael
Michael Romance song because I'm not okay. You know, and yeah, it's interesting. I think because
I think that like there is a lot more positive reaction because there's a treatment after it

(37:31):
because I can tell you 10 years ago, when I told people about ketamine, oh, what a
discourse tranquilizer. Oh, that's like, that's weird, man. Like what the heck? What kind of
trait are you doing? You know, but I do think now people are realizing, hey, a lot of these
treatments do work. I think that people talking more about ayahuasca retreats helped out. I think

(37:54):
people talking about DMT in a positive way have helped out. I'm just people being more open to
these types of like medicine, plant medicines that have always been around. But now it's like, okay,
it does help. I mean, I think also to what can is people are realizing, wow,
and it does help a lot with like my pain and whatever. And I don't have to get hooked on

(38:20):
really addicting painkillers. So I think that's helping out a lot. And yeah, a lot of us are not okay.
I'm not okay, but just taking things day by day. So talk to us about like the first
head of mean treatment session. How are you feeling when you walked in there? What was it? Like,

(38:41):
yeah, walk us through it. I wish I could like show you visuals because it's actually really cute. So
they you go into the clinic, you meet with the doctor, doctor asks you some questions,
and then they take your vitals, right? They check your blood oxygen and your blood pressure. And then
you go in this little pot, like this little pod, they have a comfy chair, they have i-maths and ear plugs

(39:06):
and little candy to chew on because the post nasal drip can be really gross. And it's like a cute
little there's a blanket. There's like a weighted stuffed animal. It's like a cute little vibe. So you're
not, you know, there's like three pods, but you're alone and it's curtained off. And then the nurse
comes and like gives you the spray in their hand. It's like already opened and you self-administer it. So

(39:31):
it's like a puff and a puff, depending on how much dosage. And then they just leave you alone in
the room. Every 40 minutes they come and they check on you and they're like they again, they take
your blood oxygen and your blood pressure and you're just chill, you know, they literally just need
your arm. By that point, you're like so deep in your K-hole. And then you just chill and different

(39:55):
people have really different experiences. For me, I, in the first like 20 to 40 minutes,
I'm like, I'm an outer, I tend to go to outer space a lot. And that's where I have like
my aha moments or like whatever my, I could feel like my brain is kind of like processing.

(40:20):
One time I was like, oh, the Buddhists have got it right. Like, I'm not even religious. And I was like
or like non-attachment has come up or safe like the other day, I was like, oh, this is what safety
means. So it's like really interesting to have these like, you know, you have these things like the

(40:40):
brain is just on its own trip. And then as you start to come down, sometimes I'll fall asleep because
it is a tranquilizer. Like it is a sedative. Sometimes you fall asleep. And then by the time that the two
hours are up, you're pretty much like back in the real world. And like I said, they're coming,

(41:03):
they take your vitals and they'll ask you any sedation, any disassociation. And sometimes you can hear
the other people and everyone's like, I'm in a tripping. I'm, um, and then, and then you go home.
And you can't drive yourself. So that like again, another like privilege thing. Like you need to

(41:23):
want to pick you up or you got to take an uber because it is a sedative. And you, it's, I honestly,
I wouldn't want to drive after. I'm like so wonky and like, so, um, so the, the, it almost feels like a
spot A for your brain. Like it's a risk. Some people don't like the trip. Some people get nauseous.

(41:48):
But for me, it's really relaxing. And I'll take my journal in there and I like journal and I doodle.
And some people listen to music. Some people watch movies, which is overstimulating for me. But like
different people do different things. Um, and then when you come home, you know, for the rest of the day,

(42:10):
I like to take the rest of the day. Like I don't work. I'll, I'll make time for like a friend. I'll have
plans with push. I get really creative. Um, you just kind of feel a little tired. Um,
a little dehydrated because it is dehydrating side effects. Um, so it kind of take it easy. And then

(42:32):
you're, you're back to like, there's no calm down. There's no like long recovery process. Um,
just kind of, you're like, I feel great. Right. You know, I do recall that on more mellow occasions,
uncademic, I would, I would take ketamine, I would chill on the couch. I'd find myself nodding in and out,

(42:58):
like falling asleep, taking apps. I don't know about you, but I heard like the waves crashing at beach.
I don't know. I heard that sometimes. Um, I felt so relaxed. Maybe that's what it was. I heard
the waves crashing, but I do feel like sometimes I felt like I figured solutions out or maybe
should do this. Do that. You know, um, what did it taste like? Because I know there is a post nasal drip.

(43:25):
What did it taste like to you? It's just a little bitter. Yeah.
And the clinic will give you like, I'm sorry. Um, they have ginger shoes. They have jolier ranchers.
They have. So I think on a, I like the ginger shoes. So you just pop one drink your water. They have tea.

(43:52):
Um, I think I've started to associate ginger and ketamine together because of how I do that.
But it's really like, it's like this bitter taste and then it goes away. Like, it's not any worse than,
I don't know. Like it's, it's such a passing discomfort. Yeah. It's like for me, it was kind of salty like a,

(44:15):
like, however, remember it was like, full of salty, a little bitter. Um, I kind of grew to like it
on its own. But it's definitely like a kind of a discomfort, especially because it's going up your
nose. It, it kind of well, depends how you take it. But I guess for me, it was like a little discomfort
of my nasal passages, but that went away. And I just, in the beginning, it's subtle, right? It's not like,

(44:43):
whoa, like, oh my gosh, like I'm tripping balls. But I remember it's very subtle. Like it kind of like
creeps in on you a little bit. Um, yeah, it's, it's the way they, they do it at the clinic. They come
and they give you the first dose. So you do one nasal spray, one nasal spray. And then they wait
five minutes and they come and give you the rest of your thing. And in that five minutes, you're kind of

(45:08):
like, oh, like the, the room looks the same, but it's like a little blurry or it's a little like,
it's, yeah, it's, I think that's a good point is that it's not like, oh, I'm, I'm hallucinating
all of a sudden. It kind of eases yourself into it and then all of a sudden you're like, oh,
I'm on another planet. Great. Cool. Did you ever hear like the want, want, want thing? You're, you're

(45:34):
hit. Oh, I, it's interesting. I think I'm really into as someone who's like hyper vigilant and like
always alert all the time. What's been really nice for me in the ketamine lately is I go in there and
I like wrap myself in a, I'm like super cozy. I have the hoodie. I wrap myself in a blanket. I have

(45:55):
one of their like weighted stuffed animals to like weigh me down. I put in ear plugs. I put on my shades.
Like I really get into a space of sensory deprivation, which it's so funny. Today I was like, oh,
this doesn't freak me out at all that I can't hear or see or feel anything. It actually lets me relax.

(46:23):
And I feel safe. I was like, oh, is this what safety feels like? Like I don't have to be on guard.
So I'm really like that I can just completely tune out. And one of the things that comes up a lot
for me lately is this idea of like, I don't have to do anything right now. I don't have to do anything

(46:44):
but take some breaths. And like my brain is doing everything that it needs to do because I, I sometimes
feel like, well, is it working? Am I doing ketamine correctly? Am I being a good ketamine student?
Which again, it's like a trauma response. And so sometimes I, so lately I've been like, I just have to

(47:07):
just chill. Just don't do anything. Which is also good, good brain-read structuring for me.
Right. So with that said, do you, do you go in there like with the intent of, okay, I'm going to
heal or I'm going to work on this or that? Or do you just go in there, let it do its thing? And then

(47:29):
that kind of stuff happens. Post-creepment down the road like the next day or so.
I, um, I know that if I went in there and did nothing,
the ketamine is working. Like the healing is happening not in anything that I do but in what the drug

(47:52):
is doing. Right. In the same way that like if you take an antibiotic, it doesn't matter if you watch
Netflix or read a book, the antibiotics are going to fight the bacteria. That's kind of high.
So if I do nothing, ketamine is going to do its thing. Sometimes I'll go in there and I do, so I do,

(48:12):
like therapy a couple days before. So if I've worked on something in therapy or we, I might go in there
and just be like, this is my intention. Or this is what I want to think about. So sometimes I'll do that.
It may, that may be where the ketamine takes me. It may not be where the ketamine takes me.

(48:33):
Sometimes I'll go and I'll just like think on some affirmations and sometimes I'll be like,
I'm just going to relax. I'm going to take a nap. And for me, the, this part about doing less
and allowing for ease or just being gentle with myself is good practice anyway. So I don't have to

(49:02):
do anything for the healing to work.
Not it. Okay. That makes sense because he kind of just let it do its thing. I remember,
yeah, when I was on it, I just kind of let it, let it take its course and just chill. I don't
say forget how it works, but like you do feel a little bit of like, or like, healing, right? You do

(49:27):
feel you for a little bit. Yeah, like the, for me, that the K-hole or the high is like,
it's Viby. Like today I was like, dang, my brain works so hard. Like shout out to my brain. I had a
whole like moment with my brain. Like, you know, it's a, but I don't know if everyone has those

(49:50):
experiences. That's what's been like for me where it's like, it's nice. Right. Yeah. And we talked about
it earlier on, but because they can use kind of an achievement, you do feel a little less anxious
and a little less on edge. And are there any other ways that's impacted your day-to-day interactions

(50:15):
with yourself and other people? Yeah. I mean, I think I'm more present and less guarded. Honestly,
I'm eating more, which I needed to be doing. I don't know if that's the ketamine that's making that

(50:36):
happen or I've done some healing around the reasons why I wasn't eating, like I needed to be. It's helped
I sleep better. I'm just much more present and less anxious. I'm more comfortable, like I'm less
socially awkward, like I'm more awkward, but like less socially anxious. Yeah, like I would say my

(51:05):
overall quality of, and then I mean, like I'm not depressed. Like that's really the thing, right? Like
I'm not depressed like I used to be. I don't have suicide ideation like I used to have
this episode probably needs a trigger warning. Okay, I'll put it up. But you know, it's

(51:30):
I like as someone who has been depressed for so long and who like I can't remember a time in my
life where I was like, oh my god, life is so great and I'm looking forward to living. For the first
time in my life, I'm like, oh, I get what people mean when they say it gets better.

(51:53):
That's powerful. Yeah, so that part is, I mean, it's literally like
change the entire quality of my life.
That's so cool. I mentioned that because again, I was on drugs for 14 years,
on and off. And I think what kept me going was, oh, I'm going to get high and make myself feel better.

(52:14):
And I don't, again, I don't know like I must have been an issue because that's all I really
like, that's what really helped me get through the day. And I look forward to like better times
of using. But now that I don't, I definitely can see like, you know, it does get better. I never

(52:35):
thought it would really when I quit using it just the idea of not using. You know, I hear that
ketamine treatment can work with addiction. It's like a slippery slope, but it can work.
It's kind of something now that like maybe, I don't know, I don't even know if my sponsor will agree,

(52:55):
but I feel like I'm this far along with like recovery. I don't know. I would consider it when I
spoke last time with two individuals that talked about ketamine therapy. I was like, probably not
I want to do it. Now it's like, we describe it. It's more mellow. I mean, I never was like,

(53:19):
ketamine was never my drug of choice. So I don't think that's the issue, but there is a lot of
things going on with just everything going on and just like personal things. It's like, you know,
a little boost wouldn't help. I mean, a little boost would help. It's, I know that it's not going to,
it's not like taking them all over like, I feel good all, you know, all the sudden everything is cool.

(53:43):
I know that this will help kind of like, help me get going. It's a point B, a lot quicker.
Something I can consider. Something I kind of do consider.
It's so the way that it's been, I mean, you know, you can get ketamine anywhere, but to do the ketamine
treatment. And I think treatment is an important word because you are committing to twice a week.

(54:09):
And then weekly and like, right, like it's a, there's, it's a plan. But the, oh my god, I lost my
try to thought right now. This is what I was going to say. There's a lot of evidence that

(54:30):
ketamine treatment also helps with addiction treatment. And my, the doctor who runs the ketamine
clinic, I go to, he's pretty like conservative and not conservative like politically, but conservative.
And how he like in his, in his use of treatment. And the other day we were talking and he said that he

(54:55):
would, he with supervision would recommend ketamine for people who are in sobriety.
Yeah. And but again, I think, I think that's one of the stuff that it's, it's so different for everybody.
Oh, this is what I was going to say is that in order to be prescribed ketamine, they, they require that

(55:23):
you have failed to other treatment modalities. So that you've tried like so often, well, but you
train or you tried TMS or whatever. And that you've like failed. So there's still, you know, there's
still some of these barriers. But I think it's worth asking for anyone like I think it's worth
being curious and asking questions and working with doctors to create a plan that works

(55:50):
with each of like I think that's what we all need in terms of health is like having people who can
create a plan with us that meets all of our unique needs. Right. Because for me, I don't think
honestly like 100% honest, I don't see myself relapsing because drug use and alcohol aren't the

(56:12):
issue I'm seeing. It was in the past. Stop using. So go to meetings. They're great. But I'm noticing the
addiction. It didn't go away. It's transferring different things. I'm noticing there's impulsivity,
there's impulsive spending. There's like impulsive like stress eating. And I feel like, yeah, it's
still there. And the times I'm like, I feel like frustrated sometimes because I think, damn, dude,

(56:35):
like I work so hard for the drugs and alcohol to like to not do it. But like this addition thing
still shows up in different parts of my life. And that's from thinking, well, maybe
heteronien treatment might help with the impulsivity with just like other other things. Because it's

(56:58):
not the drugs and alcohol. He wants other things. And I don't know. It might help because some days
it is a lot harder. And I do like feel bad sometimes. But yeah, well, what you said, it could help.
You know, with addiction, it's not just drugs and alcohol could be other things. But yeah, it's
something now that I consider. Yeah, I think for any of us like getting to the root cause is what

(57:25):
we ultimately want to do to fix whatever it is. And treatment isn't always linear, right? We
circle closer and closer and closer. But I know you said this earlier, but like, bro, you've got
two plus year sober. It's a huge accomplishment. And the willingness to like keep exploring

(57:48):
self and keep going deeper. It's a lot of courage. And that like, that's all you can do for yourself,
right? Is stay sober and keep digging and digging into until you get to the point where you're like,
all right, like this is how I want to feel now. Right. I think that's all the time we have.

(58:08):
That was a really cool conversation. I'm glad you're on the show to talk more in depth about
why you got into cheming therapy or ketamine treatments like how it's helped your day to day
interaction with yourself and other people. That was a really cool conversation. I hope

(58:29):
anybody listening that might be interested in ketamine therapy that this gives you some insight
gives you might be assigned. Hey, I'm going to look into it more. I like what I heard. So thank you for
that. And pleasure. People have questions. Feel free to reach out and happy to talk about it.
Okay. All right. That said, in that recipe show, where can we find you on social media if they want to

(58:57):
get some questions? Nora Rahimian, and ORA, H-I-M-I-A-N, is my link tree, my Instagram, my Gmail, my
blue sky, all the things. Gotcha. Cool. Well, enjoy the rest of your day. Happy Valentine's Day.

(59:20):
Happy Valentine's Day. All right. And that's it. Thank you so much. I'm going to stop recording here.