September 27, 2024 • 44 mins
In this episode host Von discusses the therapeutic use of ketamine with licensed clinical worker Candace Curzon and medical provider Austin Francom. They explore the benefits of ketamine therapy and delve into the administration methods, safety protocols, and the importance of mindset. The discussion highlights the role of music in therapy sessions and emphasizes the need for continued work post-therapy to integrate the experiences gained during treatment.
Chapters:
(00:00) Introduction to Ketamine Therapy
(03:30) Understanding Ketamine: Properties and Uses
(06:26) The Therapeutic Process of Ketamine Administration
(09:23) The Role of Music in Ketamine Therapy
(12:35) Navigating Addiction and Ketamine Therapy
(15:19) The Integration of Ketamine Therapy with Traditional Therapy
(18:37) The Experience of a Ketamine Therapy Session
(21:31) The Importance of Setting and Support in Therapy
(24:23) Long-term Management and Self-Care After Therapy
(29:54) Exploring Ketamine and Ayahuasca: A Comparative Insight
(37:24) Considerations and Precautions for Ketamine Therapy
(40:43) Finding the Right Clinic for Ketamine Treatment
Ketamine Therapy SLC linktree
Follow Me on Social Media:
https://www.instagram.com/thevoncastshow/
https://www.instagram.com/shibavon/
https://www.tiktok.com/@wowshibavon
https://www.iamvon.net/
Chapters:
(00:00) Introduction to Ketamine Therapy
(03:30) Understanding Ketamine: Properties and Uses
(06:26) The Therapeutic Process of Ketamine Administration
(09:23) The Role of Music in Ketamine Therapy
(12:35) Navigating Addiction and Ketamine Therapy
(15:19) The Integration of Ketamine Therapy with Traditional Therapy
(18:37) The Experience of a Ketamine Therapy Session
(21:31) The Importance of Setting and Support in Therapy
(24:23) Long-term Management and Self-Care After Therapy
(29:54) Exploring Ketamine and Ayahuasca: A Comparative Insight
(37:24) Considerations and Precautions for Ketamine Therapy
(40:43) Finding the Right Clinic for Ketamine Treatment
Ketamine Therapy SLC linktree
Follow Me on Social Media:
https://www.instagram.com/thevoncastshow/
https://www.instagram.com/shibavon/
https://www.tiktok.com/@wowshibavon
https://www.iamvon.net/
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Hey there! My name is Vaughn and this is the Vaughncast Show. This is a podcast that focuses on
(00:08):
mental health, breaking societal stigmas, harm reduction, addiction and recovery. If you like what
you hear, subscribe and leave a review on Spotify and Apple Podcasts. Also, follow the podcast
Instagram @thevaughncast Show where I post video content from the show. All right, let's get into
(00:33):
today's episode. Now, okay, welcome to the Vaughncast Show. Hope everybody's doing well today.
I'm your host Vaughn. Today I have licensed clinical worker, Kenis Karzon and medical provider
Austin Franken with me to talk about ketamine therapy. How are you guys doing today?
(00:55):
We're good. Thanks for having us. Appreciate it. Yeah, thank you. Yeah, no problem. So,
today we'll be talking about ketamine as properties and how it's used in a therapy setting.
See, ketamine has a special place in my heart. I'm a recovering addict and I've definitely
that will ketamine. It's really interesting stuff. So, I wanted to talk more about that, but it
(01:20):
interests me because I didn't realize that you could use it for therapy up until a couple of
years ago. I thought I was just like recreational use. And yeah, so how did you end up getting into
ketamine therapy? So, I'm a trauma therapist. I've been doing it for about 12 years and
(01:45):
I worked in a mental hospital here in Utah and I saw really great results with patients,
people who hadn't responded to anything treatment resistant depression, who weren't responding
to anything who would have incredible changes after one or two sessions. So, ketamine,
I became really interested in it and started learning all I could about it.
(02:08):
And I got a little, you can burnt out with the being of the hospital and just doing the initial
crisis where people I wanted to do more and kind of dig and deeper and follow them through. And so,
my up-and-down practice still just focused on a lot of trauma work, mindfulness and trauma work.
(02:28):
And I said a couple of my patients to another clinic and I just was seeing, I was seeing
incredible changes really fast. Like, one or two sessions, their affect would change,
they'd be smiling. We could start to actually really dig in the stuff we hadn't been able to dig into.
And so, I reached out to Austin, who's a medical provider and
we just, I asked him if he wanted me to give it a try. So, we got some ketamine and he just clinic,
(02:55):
he's a family practitioner. And we just started practicing on our own patients who had
experienced treatment or just resistant depression. It's just kind of gone from there. That was about six
years ago. Yeah, I similarly had a lot of patients that just were refractory to medication.
The conventional meds weren't working. So, it was worth trying something outside of the box.
(03:18):
We both found it, you know, similarly beneficial for our patients. So, interesting. Okay,
that's pretty cool. So, it's mainly used for like trauma and depression. But how does that,
how does that work? Like, what does ketamine and how does it affect the body? Because there's so many
like things, oh, it's horse tranquilizers, cat tranquilizers, so many like misinformation stuff
(03:45):
out there. Oh, you're doing horse tranquilizer. That's weird. What exactly is ketamine and how does
it affect the body? So, ketamine is actually an anesthetic drug. It was kind of developed in the 60s.
Four, you know, filled use because it's very safe. It doesn't affect your airway, it doesn't affect
(04:05):
your breathing or your blood pressure, stuff like that. Low dose is essentially a psychedelic drug.
And for whatever reason, there's some theories, popular theories, that helps with mental health.
But it does tend to put patients in a state of openness where they can kind of examine,
(04:29):
you know, whatever issues they have, their trauma, without self-judgement, without, you know,
that negative self-talk that sometimes comes with with our conscious mind. So,
that there's debate on how works for Zahe, you know, with their mainstream medicine kind of feels
(04:51):
like maybe it's just the drug's effect on neurons. We kind of feel like it's more experiential.
And there's theories to support both things. But there's a gap in the knowledge of how it works. It
just seems to have kind of a almost profound effect sometimes on people.
Right. And I'm curious too. But those who don't know, ketamine, it's like a crystal.
(05:16):
And for recreationally use, typically you would sniff it up your nose. How does that work
with in the therapy setting? Do you inhale it through your nose? Like sniff it or is it like ingested
orally or is it like through an IV? All of the above really for us, we offer either intramuscular
(05:38):
injections or IV. You get a more of a psychic, well, you get a little more powerful effect if you do
it intravenously or intramuscular or it tends to anything you ingest either nasally. A lot of that
tends to be processed through your liver, which metabolizes it quickly. So, you get kind of a different
(06:03):
effect from Los Angeles or nasal administration. You get it's more like maybe a sedative hypnotic state
with that administration with the IV or IEM injections you tend to get a little more of a
dissociative state, a kind of an out of body experience. So for kind of an immersive experience,
(06:30):
we tend to recommend intramuscular injections for doing ketamine assisted therapy where you
would talk to a therapist through this session. We recommend either Los Angeles or
slow or subcutaneous injection, which is metabolized slower. But ketamine is a strange drug because it's
(06:53):
metabolized really fast. So if you ingest it or inhale it, it tends to slow down the metabolization.
So, and that affects kind of how the drug, the pharmaconetics of the drug tend to be different
by depending on the route of administration.
No, that was well said. I had no idea. I was always curious. I'm like so am I like chopping up
(07:18):
like ketamine lines and doing it in therapy. And it kind of burns too. That's interesting.
I always wondered like, because I guess there's a kind of commercial preparation called spravato
that's kind of derivative of the ketamine we use. But you know, most because it's,
(07:41):
if you dehydrate it, I think you'll get kind of that crystallization kind of what you're kind of
describing. But that's really would be more of a people that use it recreationally. And I think
there's a little bit of association with that kind of administration, particularly people with
(08:06):
maybe a background with, you know, have struggled with addiction. I think that can be a little
so no. I mean, we don't usually do the nasal administration, but I think professionally when
it's done, it's usually dissolved in a solution. Just I think it's more to avoid kind of the
triggers of people who maybe do have a history of addiction, you know,
(08:32):
typically professionally. Yeah, nobody does would do it in a line form. I guess. It would be
the way to phrase that. I guess. So yeah, I had to get it out there because I always wondered.
Yeah, it's weird. Back then this is a long time ago. You know, I don't know, this is appropriate,
(08:54):
but like it would never be around a lot. It's a very like, it's a very niche thing in a recreational
like culture. Like you don't get it everywhere all the time. So when someone has it, oh yeah,
let's get some and it sometimes comes into vial. We're much in powder or like in the crystal or
people will say, oh yeah, let's get like a hair dryer. Let's like put on low sands, cook it up or
put like a like a low flame like setting and like a pan and cook it up and you see like crystallize.
(09:21):
So yeah, I was wondering like, like how that works. And yeah, I can see how that'd be very triggering
if you're an addict because I don't know. I think the first thing I said to like my previous
therapist, I came in for addiction issues. I wrote a 12 step program, but I was like, oh, so I can
essentially like, can you like cook me up like MDMA like therapy or like ketamine treatment as
(09:42):
you kind of laughed. I said, my head, I'm like, oh, maybe I can like get high doing this and you therapy.
So yeah, um, yeah, in low doses, I felt like I get giggly, right? But then when I when I ingested a lot
more, definitely disassociated. And I was like, I wasn't not hallucinating, but it was a very trippy.
(10:05):
Like I became colors in a sense where like I just kind of lost like who I like the ego was like
ego death in a sense. I experienced that. Yeah. Yeah, that that dissociation, I think, is kind of
important. And you know what what you're describing is kind of, um, you know, a euphoric effect, but you know,
(10:27):
you know, I guess if you're doing it in a recreational setting, I don't know if it's kind of it has a history
has been a club drug in the 90s. I'm for an therapeutic setting, though, it's not always euphoric.
Sometimes it can be, um, you know, it can be actually very scary, even kind of challenging emotionally.
And so, um, it does have some abusability. I mean, there, there's a potential for abuse there.
(10:55):
Um, I think the crystallization, you know, it's the molecules combined with hydrochloride,
when you, you know, most, the water soluble, most, most drugs that are, you know, the,
are dissolved in a solution. If you dehydrated well, form into some type of crystal, I think that's
(11:16):
probably true of like, I don't know, I, you know, cocaine or anything dissolved in a solution,
because it, it dissociates from that chloride molecule, but when it re, when it's dehydrated,
it combines back into a crystal. So most drugs will kind of appear as a crystal form. I guess if,
(11:36):
just a, just from a chemistry standpoint, if you dehydrate them, but, um, I don't know if that,
it just if you're curious, I think that's kind of how that works. We've had a few people, like,
we've had quite a few people come who are in child step programs. That's always been a little,
they, you know, they'll ask about that. Like, I'm abstinence only and, and there, we've had some people
(12:00):
kind of work through that and, um, some, you know, some people are, are absolutely, um,
abstinent only and don't want to go this route, but, um, the ones you have come in, they, they found,
I think they found some benefit with it and it, it approached you to a different way, the
new thing, just getting high or drugs. There, there's a, the way I like to describe it is, it's a container
(12:25):
for you to go, uh, ketamine offers you a container to go in and do your work in a really safe way.
And yeah, you do feel high, um, but it's not like other, it's not like other drugs, we just get high.
There's, they're coming in and do some work and so we've had quite a few people use it in that way,
who are in child step programs, but the, I think I need to have to work through a little bit of that
(12:46):
mental block they have with, with abstinence only, but, um, it's, it's gonna be really good because it helps you,
doesn't just stop you from doing all your stuff, they, whatever, you know, if they're coming for addiction,
but it can help them really gain insight into why they have that addiction, usually a reason,
usually, usually trauma-based, if it's like, you know, and so is like alcohol or opiates or even smoking,
(13:11):
you've got people coming for that, but it really can help them get to the root of why they do it,
and that's why it's a little bit different than just like getting high.
MDMA offers that same thing, you know, and, um, and I think that's a great medicine also, but it's,
it's off the table for us right now because of the legality of it, but, and this one's always been
legal, it was never, um, you know, a schedule and drug, and so we, we always had access to this,
(13:36):
and so there's a little bit of a different feeling with this, because it's always been legal and always been
available, um, so. I would say in comparison to MDMA is more euphoric than, than ketamine in general,
ketamine, um, depending on what you're using it for, it will take you a different direction, so, um,
but yeah, we, we kind of look, I kind of described ketamine as a road map, you know, it doesn't do the work
(14:02):
for you, but it'll sometimes give you a road map on where you want to put your work, and, and we kind
of framework like that for our patients. Yeah, because when I was, even to get recreationally,
like, had to be in a different setting, it wasn't just something you can like do, you can just,
I don't know, it was a little different. I got sometimes emotional, like, I've seen friends just like,
maybe there was something that her and I, like, friend and I, like, we kind of like drifted,
(14:26):
and we were doing ketamine, she started apologizing for a lot of things. I think it brought back a lot of,
I'm so sorry we did this, but no, no, it's okay. So I'm good. We came, like, we came very empathetic.
We had that connection, but yeah, it's really interesting stuff. And with the 12 step, I think,
for me, in my head, it's like, well, it like you said, it's, it's, it's through like a therapist use,
(14:49):
I mean, in 12 step, you can use like painkillers if you really need to, right? Like, you wouldn't
break your sobriety if it's prescribed by a doctor, as long as you don't abuse it. Now,
they can with the ketamine, maybe can be the same thing. It was administered through a therapist,
so just it's guided in a professional setting. You wouldn't break anything, but also too. What if,
(15:11):
in my head, I was like, what if I do ketamine therapy? And then I'm like, oh, I'm recovered from drugs.
And then the back of my head, I'm like, well, maybe I can do drugs again because I'm recovered. I'm
not an addict anymore. Is that ever come across from some people? I mean, I mean, that kind of rationalization,
I think is, you know, I think we all do that. And I think addicts do that as well. So I'm sure
(15:35):
has that ever happened? Yeah, I think there's, there's people that are like, I got this,
I think kind of, I can use more moderately. And that's kind of an old lesson. I think people
have to learn over and over again. I don't know if, if ketamine would, you know, I think ketamine
has a certain amount of, you know, whatever it shows you, instead of your own, own mind,
(15:59):
there's a certain amount of honesty with it. So I think that sort of rationalization,
the, for someone to pull that out of a ketamine experience, I think that's probably an old story.
People have told themselves with their own addiction that they can just, they got this,
if I can go back to kind of moderately doing something. And they had this, that's a lesson a lot of
(16:22):
addicts have to learn over and over again. I'm sure you know that. But yeah. Yeah.
It's really interesting stuff. And I didn't realize it was not, it's legal. You know,
it's funny. A buddy of mine's back then, I was like, Oh, yeah, you know, I can, I can test, I can test,
I can pass a drug test because ketamine is not on the, they don't look for that. So maybe that's why
(16:47):
it's considered legal. Like they don't really check for that. It's still like,
but it's always been around as an anesthetic. So they never are able to put it as a schedule one
because there's always been some medical use for it. And it's one of the essential anesthetics,
right? Yeah. Yeah. But I would say probably it's just not common. You know, because for example,
(17:12):
I'm sure some drug screens will screen for like benzodiazepines or opiates. And oftentimes those
are legal drugs as well. So it just, it probably just because it's newly more popular is probably why
it's being screened more or it hasn't been historically screened. I would say it's also quickly
(17:33):
metabolized. So it would be difficult to catch on a drug screen. So it just hasn't been, I guess
this is more to the point of safety of ketamine. It hasn't created some social problems that,
you know, let's say like cocaine or opiates have caused. So I think that's probably why it's not
(17:54):
typically screened for. But the legality, sometimes there are legal drugs that can be, you can
fail a drug screen on. And that is, so yeah, there's, so that is, it's probably more than it's just
historically has a been a social problem. So it's not routinely screened for. But I still say,
even though it's more popular, I would say it hasn't, it hasn't created social problems like,
(18:20):
like opiates. I think in my mind, opiates have created a lot of social problems, particularly lately.
100% with the fentanyl and everything. So talk us through the ketamine therapy process. Like,
how does it work? I imagine like someone administers, gives you ketamine, you take it and then you go
(18:42):
from there. Yeah, so, and so we have offices that are like therapy offices. We, we're in a, we're in
a medical office, but we try and offer really comfortable. The setting is very important with,
with these medicines. And so we try and offer really comfortable space. People have a
couch, a recliner. And then they have their own space and we go in and we chat with them a little bit.
(19:06):
But there's a process to get them in there, screening and making sure they're right thing for them.
But once they get to our office, they get them in their room and chat with them a little bit to
their providers and then they'll either get an injection or an IV. They'll have the space for about
two hours that get the medicine and it takes about, depending on the route of administration,
(19:26):
it takes anywhere from three to like 10 minutes to feel it. And we just get them really comfortable.
I'm on a couch and give them eye shades and use it. They're gonna blink it and just,
you know, we can't control what the medicine and the patient do. We can control the settings.
So we're just there to support them and help them through and keep them as comfortable as possible
(19:47):
and safe. And generally it looks like somebody's just resting their eyes are closed and they're
just resting. Sometimes it's, there's a little more action going on. It might, it's, it can be
disorienting and can, can be scary. It can be really beautiful too. And most of the time we're just,
there we'll check, we're checking in on them many, you know, multiple times and Heather,
(20:08):
our all time, but we're, we're giving them those space to just kind of go where they
they go with it. And the deepest part of it, depending on the route of administration, is about
30 minutes to an hour of the deepest part of it. And then they have another hour to kind of come
out of it, come back to themselves and then we'll check in and do some processing. So that would be
like the way we do like an immersive session where the majority of what we do is somebody came in
(20:32):
for an immersive session. People can also choose to have a therapist sit within the whole time
and just be fully supported. And in that case we do a little bit lower dough so that they still have
one foot in this world and they're able to talk and access what they need to. And I'll chat with
them before and see what we're working on. Sometimes I know, sometimes I don't, if I don't, I'll spend
(20:53):
a little more time talking about their history and what they want to work on. And so that, that's
called ketamine assisted psychotherapy. That's a little different than the immersive session. So I
or another therapist will sit with them and we'll just, ketamine really will open you up and allow
you to have access to emotions and sometimes memories. Usually it's like a motion and just like
(21:15):
being open and being able to talk about your stuff in a really open way. And so that will do
and we'll be about the same amount of time. The deep part of it being about 45 minutes to an hour
that we're doing where it is a little bit lighter and we're doing deep, deep therapy. And I'm just kind
of guiding them and holding space for them. Why they, why they are doing their work. So those are the
(21:41):
two ways we offer it. We do it. So yeah. Right. You said something earlier that was interesting.
Music. How does that play a part? Because for me, it was weird sometimes when I was on it,
I would just watch music videos and I felt like I was in the music video. It was kind of trippy,
but what does music have to do with the therapy part?
(22:05):
I mean, that's, I mean, there's different theories on that as well. I think, I mean, everybody
is pretty passionate about it because you know, there are, you know, we feel like music can kind of
help you move through the session. And particularly if you kind of get stuck on a thought or kind of
(22:30):
feel like you're trapped in, you know, kind of in a dissociative experience. Sometimes music can kind
of help push you through or keep you grounded. And we, we offer a couple curated playlists if
patients don't know what to listen to. But I don't know. I kind of, you know, sometimes patients listen
to stuff that they have a connection with. Usually about, you know, so we don't discourage people if
(22:56):
they want to kind of, you know, tailor their experience to what they want to try listening to. But
we always have backup playlists if, if it's, you know, if it's too weird for them or something. So,
yeah, I think we just think it helps keep people grounded. But it's really important part of the
experience that it kind of helps you to kind of just move through the experience. So, it's about
(23:20):
ketamine is very fast, very fast acting. Music, you can be going one way and one song, it'll take you,
it'll take you somewhere. And then, and you're just going that way and then the song changes and then
just completely change directions and go work on something else. It's just kind of like, if you
move you through it and really it assists in moving through the whole thing. But the whole process is
(23:43):
pretty fast. One of the things I really like about it is nothing, nothing lasts for a long time.
You know, other medicines, you know, if you do LSD or, or still a sideburn, you could be in it for eight
hours and some dark things, I mean, dark things can come up on ketamine, but it's so fast. You're talking
(24:04):
minutes rather than like hours. So, and it just kind of, you just move, you're just moving through it.
And the whole thing is over and about an hour. So, if it does go dark, you move through it. And
you can look back at it and you're generally people don't even remember they had a dark experience,
that it happens. And then they, they, this is like, you move through it, you experience that,
(24:24):
that whatever that was, that was difficult. And then you get to the other side, I did that. I did
this really, I moved that really hard thing and I was able to handle it and I'm okay. And then I
think that's something people can really bring into their daily lives of just like, I can handle this.
I can, I've done hard things. That was really hard. And I did it, but you're just like minutes rather than
hours. It, it, it feels a little empowering, you know, when, you know, a lot of patients are afraid of
(24:49):
being in that space. And once they go into that space and come out of it, but there's a
bit of a, I don't know, some people call it like a hero's journey, or it's like, yeah, I was afraid of
doing something and get it. I faced whatever fears were in there and, and now I'm out on the other side.
So it can be a little empowering too for patients to feel like, you know, I do, I am bigger than my trauma
(25:10):
or, or whatever. So. Right. And then so I'll want, how are these sessions go for? Because I know with
therapy, it's weeks and weeks upon end, how, how do ketamine session therapy sessions typically tend to
last? Each session, individual session lasts about two hours. And then we recommend doing a series.
(25:33):
There's some statistical evidence to suggest that there's a benefit of doing it more than once.
We recommend a series of six and six is kind of an arbitrary number just to, you, you need to take
a break after the series and just see what you get out of the experience. So up to six sessions,
(25:55):
and then, you know, either weekly or, or by weekly and then take a drug holiday, see, see how you feel,
see what you pull out of it and, and then, and oftentimes a lot of people come in maybe quarterly or
twice a year for, for boosters just when they kind of start feeling the benefits wearing off. So
(26:16):
it's kind of individual after that. Yeah. So six is, like you said, it's just a number they, they did
studies on. It's not a magic number. I'm not going to ever tell anybody you do six sessions and then
you, you, you got it. But six is a great number for us to see some pretty big changes. And we,
we typically will see changes after one or two. But six, if we don't see any improvement after six,
(26:42):
we're not going to encourage people to continue on. Not to say that they couldn't benefit from it,
but we, or more six is a really great number for us to kind of work. No, if it's going to work for
them or not, so it's going to change for them. We tend to see changes that we've been six, not 100%.
Some people don't, but we, yeah, we certainly don't want to keep doing something if it's not working.
(27:03):
Most people find that. Okay. Also, too, you were talking about earlier how
ketamine doesn't do the work for you. What, let's say like they're done with the therapy, the
ketamine therapy, what kind of work would they have to keep doing to, to manage?
Like, we always can, we always, you know, we always encourage people to be in therapy, seeing a therapist.
(27:29):
And we usually recommend in-between sessions that they see their therapist to kind of process
the stuff that comes up. We offer a integration group weekly, just on Zoom. And then we also like,
you know, for you, where you let someone with a history of addiction, where you've been involved in
12-step, obviously I would encourage people to continue their doing their 12-step work and going to
(27:53):
meetings. And then just also self-care, you know, taking care of your mind and your body,
getting exercise, good diet. So it's a really a holistic approach, but ketamine is just a small
piece of that where it's, you got to do the other step to kind of take care of yourself, you know,
the hard work, you know. Right. It is just a tool, but it's like a power tool. It's really cool. Like,
(28:17):
we, it's one of the reasons why I'm so excited about it is, as a therapist, I'm not going to say
it's magic, but it's a little bit of magic to it because it does really help people break through
and open up and become, come in contact with what they need to feel to move their stuff. So a lot of
times, you know, we create coping mechanisms and ways to protect ourselves and it's so great that we,
(28:42):
our brain is amazing, what we can do that and it's wonderful. But a lot of times these coping mechanisms,
like disassociation and all the things we do, coping mechanisms aren't inherently bad. They're,
just what we created to get through and to get us where we are now. And so, um, um, ketamine is a
(29:07):
therapist, I'm pretty excited about it because now it's not going to do everything for you, but it
really does connect you to parts of yourself that you might not have access to because of the coping
mechanisms that you've created to to survive and to continue on. And so, um, it's, it doesn't do it all
for you, but there's something really cool about it that I've seen with patients that I didn't see
(29:28):
before just talking, just doing talk therapy or even just doing trauma therapy. Um, I mean,
a lot of times, I mean, trauma is stored in your body and can there a little bit of a kind of a
hack to get into the stuff that you pulled in your body to help you move through it and feel it and
and move, yeah, basically move through it in a way that traditional talk therapy hasn't,
(29:52):
then that great about. So I like what you guys said about how it really helps out, helps you open up
and everything because I do therapy and sometimes I do have like a roadblock. Sometimes I'm just,
I don't want to share some things and whatnot so I can see how ketamine can help open you up.
I don't know if it's similar, but I feel like on on these like holistic, um, holistic treatments,
(30:19):
eye washes like up there, it's like super intense, right? You go somewhere you go to a place that's
fashion, those legit. You see a shaman, you, it's like a few days and years like a lot of purging
involved. It's very intense. It's like zero to 100 and now I'm seeing ketamine is like,
maybe it's in between. It's not last as long. It's not as intense. You go multiple times.
(30:44):
Maybe, yeah, it's definitely not intense as intense. Maybe it's something people might consider if
they want to do something like ayahuasca, but that's too intense. Maybe ketamine might be more
realistic and safe for them. Is that kind of accurate?
Between medicine, I mean, I kind of consider it like a psych, a light psych, not to say that for
(31:06):
everybody. Some people have some really intense experiences, but I think it is a little easier,
it's a little more accessible. Yeah, you're in for two hours rather than a
vegetable days. Yeah, no, I agree. I think it, it also seems to have a little more foot in
Western medicine. And for some people, you know, that feels maybe like some security where you know
(31:28):
licensed professionals, you know, or, you know, kind of watching over you. I think something like
ayahuasca is very powerful, but this is more of sometimes, I don't know if it's the right way to,
I sometimes look at ketamine as maybe a gateway and some people do move on to those more powerful
experiences, but some people ketamines enough for. So it is just a different, you know, just a little bit,
(31:54):
the way you describe it was pretty good. It's kind of, yeah, a little more, it feels a little
safer than kind of going wherever you would go to do ayahuasca or some more involves.
Yeah. And yeah, you know, going back to addiction, like your saying there's definitely a lot of trauma,
like I experienced some trauma growing up and it's just, using was definitely just the thing to do.
(32:17):
It was a thing to escape. And yeah, it's interesting that you told me that a lot of people in 12 step
go to ketamine treatments. I think it, I can see it being very beneficial.
Yeah. You know, and I don't, I'm not very familiar with 12 step of personal, but I do know them the
early days before it turned into what it was. I mean, even today there is a connection with your
(32:42):
higher source, right? Higher power. And I think, really, on, they did use psychedelics early on,
like before it became what it is today, the guy who started it at Bill, I can't remember his name,
there was, there was use of psychedelics because that does connect, there's a little bit of
connecting me to source or to source or to just maybe spirituality. And that is one thing that
(33:10):
I think ketamine can do, it can connect you to your spirituality, it can be spiritual experience, it can,
I'm not going to say everybody has that, you kind of, everybody has a different experience with what
they believe, but there's something about that that kind of connects you to like a feeling of hope
that you might not have before. So I think that it goes along with 12 step, not always going to
(33:36):
agree with me there, but, but I think there is that piece of like connecting to your higher power that
ketamine can help with. The other thing that ketamine, and I know we're at almost
at a time that I wanted to say ketamine is really helpful with helping, and other psychedelics are
really great at helping you connect with yourself compassion in ways that all of the things I knew I
(33:58):
should do before I ever tried, you know, did my own work with it. All of a sudden I started to know,
and like I had started to feel how, feel it rather than just know it. And, and what I mean by that
is just like having self-compassion from myself and and being kinder to myself, I see that with
so many people that they are all the same able to have this compassion, this self-compassion,
(34:19):
and we really need that to heal. We need to be kinder ourselves and we need to have compassion and
and have an understanding of where we come and why we've done what we've done and how we got to where we
are. And I think that's really important when we talk about ketamine and using unbearably is
can really connect people with that in a way that they couldn't connect to before. And in
psychedelics in general are really great at helping with that, but yeah, so that's something I hear a lot
(34:45):
from people. Right, how much time do you guys have? I think a couple more questions and we're,
I think it's like pretty well. A little bit more time. Yeah. What I also liked about ketamine is it,
I felt a little, this is my personal experience. When I was introduced to psychedelics, I was very
hesitant. I told myself, this is a really long trip. I knew if I was in the right mindset, I always
(35:11):
heard that if you're not in the right mindset when you take this, you're going to have a bad trip,
something's going to, you know, you're going to have a really bad time. And for me, I never really knew.
I think deep down, even when I was using, I knew I wasn't in the right mindset. Like deep down,
myself conscious, I knew if I wasn't in the right mindset, I would not be using drugs all the time.
(35:32):
Sure, maybe recreationally, but deep down, I just knew like, man, I felt like I was open up a
can of worms or something's going to like really ruin my day the next few hours. But with ketamine,
it was a cool in between because I liked it. I really did enjoy like, how good it made me feel and I felt
like similar MDMA, like super compassionate, you know, so that's something that I noticed with the
(35:57):
ketamine. Yeah, I mean, I think that's always, I mean, that's a common fear. I think with psychedelics
in general, it's like, what is it going to unlock? And there is that fear of the, you know, your subconscious
is pretty vast and there are things there that we have repressed. And I think if you go into it,
(36:18):
you may not always be in the perfect mindset, but if you go into it with good intentions of like,
I want to see where I can work on, but usually even when those hard things sometimes get unlocked,
it's usually that can be very kind of helpful to unlock them. And okay, here's something I,
there wasn't a wearer of that I want to, you know, there's very obvious ones like, you know, like,
(36:42):
as you said, you, when you were using you were like, okay, I already know what I need to kind of fix,
but if it kind of helped give you some insider self-compassion into it, okay, well, how do I start
to work on fixing that? That can be very powerful as well. So there is the unconscious stuff we don't
that we have it unlocked, you know, the reason you self-medicate, and then there's the other
(37:04):
yes stuff that weighs on our consciousness, but yeah, I mean mindset is important, but I think
you can kind of counterbalance that with kind of intentions to do work rather than just self-medicate.
Also with ketamine, so I felt like I could, I felt okay doing it alone, but with psychedelics,
(37:25):
I was like, I don't know if I should, because typically you need somebody there. Well, unless you're like
in you, so I think the last question is you've talked to really great things about ketamine therapy,
benefits, how it's helped with depression, addiction, and other things. Like, what should people
be mindful of before going into ketamine therapy? And when wouldn't you recommend ketamine therapy?
(37:53):
What was the last question? When wouldn't you recommend ketamine therapy with somebody?
I mean, usually so there's a little bit of a screening process, I'll usually see patients
do a psycho vow. You know, if somebody's actively intoxicated, you know, we usually have, we've had
(38:16):
patients come in on opiates, and with intention to like, I want to use this drug to kind of help me detox.
Usually we require a little bit of sobriety, you know, to before we'll, we'll, you know, usually we
want to engage in some sort of therapeutic process, whether that's individual therapy.
(38:36):
You know, so expectations around, around it. Other stuff, mental health issues like acute psychosis,
like somebody that skits a frenic, or even bipolar that's manic, we don't want them exacerbate or make
the situation worse, you know, make the psychosis worse or the mania. So there's certain psychiatric
(39:04):
diagnosis we would probably say it would be a bad idea to give somebody ketamine.
Some other instance where we've, we've turned people away, we've, we've had, you know, patients' family
members pushing them to do ketamine, you know, family members wanting to fix that patient, and oftentimes
(39:25):
we want the individual to be motivated, you know, or rather than somebody else kind of
stronting, you know, forcing them to do the treatments. That's definitely a no-go. So I can't
think what other situations do you tend to do? I'm not talking about, it would be mindful of doing it.
I would say, you know, choosing the right clinic, doing a little research, looking at reviews,
(39:55):
making sure, you know, finding out and asking questions, to find the right clinic. Now there's a lot
of clinics out there now. They popped up a lot when we started, there weren't a lot, but there's
a lot now. So just being, no, just doing your homework and choosing the right clinic that feels good to you.
I, not that everybody's going to even tell you if they've done it or not, and maybe it's not necessary,
(40:18):
but I've found that trying to find somebody who has done work with it and they know what they're
sending you into is, I think it's important. It's just my own personal opinion, but, but I think,
I think it's important that someone who's going to give you this would have some idea of what they're
sending you into. So just ask questions on that. And, you know, do a little assessment of your own,
(40:40):
your own copy mechanisms and your, your ability to, I mean, it can unlock some things and it can shake
you up and it can create some big emotions and feelings. And so just, you know, making sure that
you're doing good self-care and maybe that even people, you know, love when those are doing it,
because it can really shake things up and then, and it can wait to some, it can be difficult to have
(41:04):
some support if you have it. It's good. And if not making sure you find a clinic that does offer,
you know, some help or support beyond just giving you the ketamine.
Right. I also like what you said about people who administer the ketamine therapy have also gone
through it themselves. I strongly believe in that because for me, if somebody, I mean, it's obvious,
(41:27):
but if somebody who's never touched drugs told me you got to stop doing drugs, I'm, I'd be more
incline to listen to somebody who's gone through it. He said, Hey, man, like, I've been through it.
Like, let's talk. You know, I feel like it comes from a place of experience. Oh, they've been through
it too. They know what they're talking about. So I definitely agree with that. Yeah, I think it's helpful.
(41:49):
I mean, I'm not a reviewer. You know, I can always have that, but I think it's really helpful for
the process. So I mean, sorry. I get it's got your it's got your right. Um, also like, I guess,
are there any side effects? I guess it comes with it. Um, I mean, let's say you do the ketamine therapy
(42:11):
and it wears off. Is there anything that people might be, should be aware of, like, does it kind of
affect you afterwards or is kind of just gone? Well, it's sometimes it can bring up hard stuff
emotionally and and pay, you know, we've had patients say, you know, they didn't like what it brought up
and feel like they're still under some sort of influence of ketamine, which is not really
(42:34):
possible like days out. So it whatever it brought up is kind of manifesting sometimes in a physical,
you know, kind of way for patients. That's rare, but sometimes that happens. The most common side
effect really is nausea. Most people, it's very, it's usually tolerated well about 10, 10% of people
get really bad nausea with it. So that's about it. I mean, if they do, we can pre-medicate with some,
(42:59):
you know, so for an or something like that to help help avoid that the next time. Yeah, what, I mean,
when I was using ketamine, I kind of liked it because there wasn't really like, there was some
sort of a countdown. It's like a stuff knows it like I was kind of out of it, but it wasn't like super
intense. But yeah, I think that concludes the episode. Thank you guys so much. Do you
(43:22):
want to shout out your clinic where you're at? Maybe get the right interested.
Yeah. So the name of the clinic is ketamine therapy at therapeutic alternatives and we're
located in Salt Lake City. Our website is ktherapyslc.com. Okay. Yeah. Right. I think we're on Instagram,
(43:42):
and we're on Instagram. Yeah. I think it's ketamine SLC. It's on our website. I'm sorry. I don't know.
You're good. You're fine. You know, it's funny. When I was searching up like ketamine therapy on
Instagram, right away it says like your input, like whatever you search, like ketamine therapy. Oh,
sounds like you're trying to like buy drugs or sell drugs. Like some help. So I'm like, oh, so, okay,
(44:06):
so I have to like find it to like I think threads Instagram threads. But if you type in ketamine on
Instagram, it's going to think you're trying to buy drugs or sell drugs. Yeah. It's pretty touchy
of like how you use the word ketamine on Instagram and Facebook and stuff. Our Instagram is called
ketamine therapy SLC. And then we've got that website. But yeah, we had to be pretty careful because
(44:30):
they don't like that word. The internet doesn't like that word. Yeah. Well, thank you guys again so
much. I really appreciate your time. Yeah, no problem. I'm going to stop recording here.
Hey there! My name is Vaughn and this is the Vaughncast Show. This is a podcast that focuses on
(00:08):
mental health, breaking societal stigmas, harm reduction, addiction and recovery. If you like what
you hear, subscribe and leave a review on Spotify and Apple Podcasts. Also, follow the podcast
Instagram @thevaughncast Show where I post video content from the show. All right, let's get into
(00:33):
today's episode. Now, okay, welcome to the Vaughncast Show. Hope everybody's doing well today.
I'm your host Vaughn. Today I have licensed clinical worker, Kenis Karzon and medical provider
Austin Franken with me to talk about ketamine therapy. How are you guys doing today?
(00:55):
We're good. Thanks for having us. Appreciate it. Yeah, thank you. Yeah, no problem. So,
today we'll be talking about ketamine as properties and how it's used in a therapy setting.
See, ketamine has a special place in my heart. I'm a recovering addict and I've definitely
that will ketamine. It's really interesting stuff. So, I wanted to talk more about that, but it
(01:20):
interests me because I didn't realize that you could use it for therapy up until a couple of
years ago. I thought I was just like recreational use. And yeah, so how did you end up getting into
ketamine therapy? So, I'm a trauma therapist. I've been doing it for about 12 years and
(01:45):
I worked in a mental hospital here in Utah and I saw really great results with patients,
people who hadn't responded to anything treatment resistant depression, who weren't responding
to anything who would have incredible changes after one or two sessions. So, ketamine,
I became really interested in it and started learning all I could about it.
(02:08):
And I got a little, you can burnt out with the being of the hospital and just doing the initial
crisis where people I wanted to do more and kind of dig and deeper and follow them through. And so,
my up-and-down practice still just focused on a lot of trauma work, mindfulness and trauma work.
(02:28):
And I said a couple of my patients to another clinic and I just was seeing, I was seeing
incredible changes really fast. Like, one or two sessions, their affect would change,
they'd be smiling. We could start to actually really dig in the stuff we hadn't been able to dig into.
And so, I reached out to Austin, who's a medical provider and
we just, I asked him if he wanted me to give it a try. So, we got some ketamine and he just clinic,
(02:55):
he's a family practitioner. And we just started practicing on our own patients who had
experienced treatment or just resistant depression. It's just kind of gone from there. That was about six
years ago. Yeah, I similarly had a lot of patients that just were refractory to medication.
The conventional meds weren't working. So, it was worth trying something outside of the box.
(03:18):
We both found it, you know, similarly beneficial for our patients. So, interesting. Okay,
that's pretty cool. So, it's mainly used for like trauma and depression. But how does that,
how does that work? Like, what does ketamine and how does it affect the body? Because there's so many
like things, oh, it's horse tranquilizers, cat tranquilizers, so many like misinformation stuff
(03:45):
out there. Oh, you're doing horse tranquilizer. That's weird. What exactly is ketamine and how does
it affect the body? So, ketamine is actually an anesthetic drug. It was kind of developed in the 60s.
Four, you know, filled use because it's very safe. It doesn't affect your airway, it doesn't affect
(04:05):
your breathing or your blood pressure, stuff like that. Low dose is essentially a psychedelic drug.
And for whatever reason, there's some theories, popular theories, that helps with mental health.
But it does tend to put patients in a state of openness where they can kind of examine,
(04:29):
you know, whatever issues they have, their trauma, without self-judgement, without, you know,
that negative self-talk that sometimes comes with with our conscious mind. So,
that there's debate on how works for Zahe, you know, with their mainstream medicine kind of feels
(04:51):
like maybe it's just the drug's effect on neurons. We kind of feel like it's more experiential.
And there's theories to support both things. But there's a gap in the knowledge of how it works. It
just seems to have kind of a almost profound effect sometimes on people.
Right. And I'm curious too. But those who don't know, ketamine, it's like a crystal.
(05:16):
And for recreationally use, typically you would sniff it up your nose. How does that work
with in the therapy setting? Do you inhale it through your nose? Like sniff it or is it like ingested
orally or is it like through an IV? All of the above really for us, we offer either intramuscular
(05:38):
injections or IV. You get a more of a psychic, well, you get a little more powerful effect if you do
it intravenously or intramuscular or it tends to anything you ingest either nasally. A lot of that
tends to be processed through your liver, which metabolizes it quickly. So, you get kind of a different
(06:03):
effect from Los Angeles or nasal administration. You get it's more like maybe a sedative hypnotic state
with that administration with the IV or IEM injections you tend to get a little more of a
dissociative state, a kind of an out of body experience. So for kind of an immersive experience,
(06:30):
we tend to recommend intramuscular injections for doing ketamine assisted therapy where you
would talk to a therapist through this session. We recommend either Los Angeles or
slow or subcutaneous injection, which is metabolized slower. But ketamine is a strange drug because it's
(06:53):
metabolized really fast. So if you ingest it or inhale it, it tends to slow down the metabolization.
So, and that affects kind of how the drug, the pharmaconetics of the drug tend to be different
by depending on the route of administration.
No, that was well said. I had no idea. I was always curious. I'm like so am I like chopping up
(07:18):
like ketamine lines and doing it in therapy. And it kind of burns too. That's interesting.
I always wondered like, because I guess there's a kind of commercial preparation called spravato
that's kind of derivative of the ketamine we use. But you know, most because it's,
(07:41):
if you dehydrate it, I think you'll get kind of that crystallization kind of what you're kind of
describing. But that's really would be more of a people that use it recreationally. And I think
there's a little bit of association with that kind of administration, particularly people with
(08:06):
maybe a background with, you know, have struggled with addiction. I think that can be a little
so no. I mean, we don't usually do the nasal administration, but I think professionally when
it's done, it's usually dissolved in a solution. Just I think it's more to avoid kind of the
triggers of people who maybe do have a history of addiction, you know,
(08:32):
typically professionally. Yeah, nobody does would do it in a line form. I guess. It would be
the way to phrase that. I guess. So yeah, I had to get it out there because I always wondered.
Yeah, it's weird. Back then this is a long time ago. You know, I don't know, this is appropriate,
(08:54):
but like it would never be around a lot. It's a very like, it's a very niche thing in a recreational
like culture. Like you don't get it everywhere all the time. So when someone has it, oh yeah,
let's get some and it sometimes comes into vial. We're much in powder or like in the crystal or
people will say, oh yeah, let's get like a hair dryer. Let's like put on low sands, cook it up or
put like a like a low flame like setting and like a pan and cook it up and you see like crystallize.
(09:21):
So yeah, I was wondering like, like how that works. And yeah, I can see how that'd be very triggering
if you're an addict because I don't know. I think the first thing I said to like my previous
therapist, I came in for addiction issues. I wrote a 12 step program, but I was like, oh, so I can
essentially like, can you like cook me up like MDMA like therapy or like ketamine treatment as
(09:42):
you kind of laughed. I said, my head, I'm like, oh, maybe I can like get high doing this and you therapy.
So yeah, um, yeah, in low doses, I felt like I get giggly, right? But then when I when I ingested a lot
more, definitely disassociated. And I was like, I wasn't not hallucinating, but it was a very trippy.
(10:05):
Like I became colors in a sense where like I just kind of lost like who I like the ego was like
ego death in a sense. I experienced that. Yeah. Yeah, that that dissociation, I think, is kind of
important. And you know what what you're describing is kind of, um, you know, a euphoric effect, but you know,
(10:27):
you know, I guess if you're doing it in a recreational setting, I don't know if it's kind of it has a history
has been a club drug in the 90s. I'm for an therapeutic setting, though, it's not always euphoric.
Sometimes it can be, um, you know, it can be actually very scary, even kind of challenging emotionally.
And so, um, it does have some abusability. I mean, there, there's a potential for abuse there.
(10:55):
Um, I think the crystallization, you know, it's the molecules combined with hydrochloride,
when you, you know, most, the water soluble, most, most drugs that are, you know, the,
are dissolved in a solution. If you dehydrated well, form into some type of crystal, I think that's
(11:16):
probably true of like, I don't know, I, you know, cocaine or anything dissolved in a solution,
because it, it dissociates from that chloride molecule, but when it re, when it's dehydrated,
it combines back into a crystal. So most drugs will kind of appear as a crystal form. I guess if,
(11:36):
just a, just from a chemistry standpoint, if you dehydrate them, but, um, I don't know if that,
it just if you're curious, I think that's kind of how that works. We've had a few people, like,
we've had quite a few people come who are in child step programs. That's always been a little,
they, you know, they'll ask about that. Like, I'm abstinence only and, and there, we've had some people
(12:00):
kind of work through that and, um, some, you know, some people are, are absolutely, um,
abstinent only and don't want to go this route, but, um, the ones you have come in, they, they found,
I think they found some benefit with it and it, it approached you to a different way, the
new thing, just getting high or drugs. There, there's a, the way I like to describe it is, it's a container
(12:25):
for you to go, uh, ketamine offers you a container to go in and do your work in a really safe way.
And yeah, you do feel high, um, but it's not like other, it's not like other drugs, we just get high.
There's, they're coming in and do some work and so we've had quite a few people use it in that way,
who are in child step programs, but the, I think I need to have to work through a little bit of that
(12:46):
mental block they have with, with abstinence only, but, um, it's, it's gonna be really good because it helps you,
doesn't just stop you from doing all your stuff, they, whatever, you know, if they're coming for addiction,
but it can help them really gain insight into why they have that addiction, usually a reason,
usually, usually trauma-based, if it's like, you know, and so is like alcohol or opiates or even smoking,
(13:11):
you've got people coming for that, but it really can help them get to the root of why they do it,
and that's why it's a little bit different than just like getting high.
MDMA offers that same thing, you know, and, um, and I think that's a great medicine also, but it's,
it's off the table for us right now because of the legality of it, but, and this one's always been
legal, it was never, um, you know, a schedule and drug, and so we, we always had access to this,
(13:36):
and so there's a little bit of a different feeling with this, because it's always been legal and always been
available, um, so. I would say in comparison to MDMA is more euphoric than, than ketamine in general,
ketamine, um, depending on what you're using it for, it will take you a different direction, so, um,
but yeah, we, we kind of look, I kind of described ketamine as a road map, you know, it doesn't do the work
(14:02):
for you, but it'll sometimes give you a road map on where you want to put your work, and, and we kind
of framework like that for our patients. Yeah, because when I was, even to get recreationally,
like, had to be in a different setting, it wasn't just something you can like do, you can just,
I don't know, it was a little different. I got sometimes emotional, like, I've seen friends just like,
maybe there was something that her and I, like, friend and I, like, we kind of like drifted,
(14:26):
and we were doing ketamine, she started apologizing for a lot of things. I think it brought back a lot of,
I'm so sorry we did this, but no, no, it's okay. So I'm good. We came, like, we came very empathetic.
We had that connection, but yeah, it's really interesting stuff. And with the 12 step, I think,
for me, in my head, it's like, well, it like you said, it's, it's, it's through like a therapist use,
(14:49):
I mean, in 12 step, you can use like painkillers if you really need to, right? Like, you wouldn't
break your sobriety if it's prescribed by a doctor, as long as you don't abuse it. Now,
they can with the ketamine, maybe can be the same thing. It was administered through a therapist,
so just it's guided in a professional setting. You wouldn't break anything, but also too. What if,
(15:11):
in my head, I was like, what if I do ketamine therapy? And then I'm like, oh, I'm recovered from drugs.
And then the back of my head, I'm like, well, maybe I can do drugs again because I'm recovered. I'm
not an addict anymore. Is that ever come across from some people? I mean, I mean, that kind of rationalization,
I think is, you know, I think we all do that. And I think addicts do that as well. So I'm sure
(15:35):
has that ever happened? Yeah, I think there's, there's people that are like, I got this,
I think kind of, I can use more moderately. And that's kind of an old lesson. I think people
have to learn over and over again. I don't know if, if ketamine would, you know, I think ketamine
has a certain amount of, you know, whatever it shows you, instead of your own, own mind,
(15:59):
there's a certain amount of honesty with it. So I think that sort of rationalization,
the, for someone to pull that out of a ketamine experience, I think that's probably an old story.
People have told themselves with their own addiction that they can just, they got this,
if I can go back to kind of moderately doing something. And they had this, that's a lesson a lot of
(16:22):
addicts have to learn over and over again. I'm sure you know that. But yeah. Yeah.
It's really interesting stuff. And I didn't realize it was not, it's legal. You know,
it's funny. A buddy of mine's back then, I was like, Oh, yeah, you know, I can, I can test, I can test,
I can pass a drug test because ketamine is not on the, they don't look for that. So maybe that's why
(16:47):
it's considered legal. Like they don't really check for that. It's still like,
but it's always been around as an anesthetic. So they never are able to put it as a schedule one
because there's always been some medical use for it. And it's one of the essential anesthetics,
right? Yeah. Yeah. But I would say probably it's just not common. You know, because for example,
(17:12):
I'm sure some drug screens will screen for like benzodiazepines or opiates. And oftentimes those
are legal drugs as well. So it just, it probably just because it's newly more popular is probably why
it's being screened more or it hasn't been historically screened. I would say it's also quickly
(17:33):
metabolized. So it would be difficult to catch on a drug screen. So it just hasn't been, I guess
this is more to the point of safety of ketamine. It hasn't created some social problems that,
you know, let's say like cocaine or opiates have caused. So I think that's probably why it's not
(17:54):
typically screened for. But the legality, sometimes there are legal drugs that can be, you can
fail a drug screen on. And that is, so yeah, there's, so that is, it's probably more than it's just
historically has a been a social problem. So it's not routinely screened for. But I still say,
even though it's more popular, I would say it hasn't, it hasn't created social problems like,
(18:20):
like opiates. I think in my mind, opiates have created a lot of social problems, particularly lately.
100% with the fentanyl and everything. So talk us through the ketamine therapy process. Like,
how does it work? I imagine like someone administers, gives you ketamine, you take it and then you go
(18:42):
from there. Yeah, so, and so we have offices that are like therapy offices. We, we're in a, we're in
a medical office, but we try and offer really comfortable. The setting is very important with,
with these medicines. And so we try and offer really comfortable space. People have a
couch, a recliner. And then they have their own space and we go in and we chat with them a little bit.
(19:06):
But there's a process to get them in there, screening and making sure they're right thing for them.
But once they get to our office, they get them in their room and chat with them a little bit to
their providers and then they'll either get an injection or an IV. They'll have the space for about
two hours that get the medicine and it takes about, depending on the route of administration,
(19:26):
it takes anywhere from three to like 10 minutes to feel it. And we just get them really comfortable.
I'm on a couch and give them eye shades and use it. They're gonna blink it and just,
you know, we can't control what the medicine and the patient do. We can control the settings.
So we're just there to support them and help them through and keep them as comfortable as possible
(19:47):
and safe. And generally it looks like somebody's just resting their eyes are closed and they're
just resting. Sometimes it's, there's a little more action going on. It might, it's, it can be
disorienting and can, can be scary. It can be really beautiful too. And most of the time we're just,
there we'll check, we're checking in on them many, you know, multiple times and Heather,
(20:08):
our all time, but we're, we're giving them those space to just kind of go where they
they go with it. And the deepest part of it, depending on the route of administration, is about
30 minutes to an hour of the deepest part of it. And then they have another hour to kind of come
out of it, come back to themselves and then we'll check in and do some processing. So that would be
like the way we do like an immersive session where the majority of what we do is somebody came in
(20:32):
for an immersive session. People can also choose to have a therapist sit within the whole time
and just be fully supported. And in that case we do a little bit lower dough so that they still have
one foot in this world and they're able to talk and access what they need to. And I'll chat with
them before and see what we're working on. Sometimes I know, sometimes I don't, if I don't, I'll spend
(20:53):
a little more time talking about their history and what they want to work on. And so that, that's
called ketamine assisted psychotherapy. That's a little different than the immersive session. So I
or another therapist will sit with them and we'll just, ketamine really will open you up and allow
you to have access to emotions and sometimes memories. Usually it's like a motion and just like
(21:15):
being open and being able to talk about your stuff in a really open way. And so that will do
and we'll be about the same amount of time. The deep part of it being about 45 minutes to an hour
that we're doing where it is a little bit lighter and we're doing deep, deep therapy. And I'm just kind
of guiding them and holding space for them. Why they, why they are doing their work. So those are the
(21:41):
two ways we offer it. We do it. So yeah. Right. You said something earlier that was interesting.
Music. How does that play a part? Because for me, it was weird sometimes when I was on it,
I would just watch music videos and I felt like I was in the music video. It was kind of trippy,
but what does music have to do with the therapy part?
(22:05):
I mean, that's, I mean, there's different theories on that as well. I think, I mean, everybody
is pretty passionate about it because you know, there are, you know, we feel like music can kind of
help you move through the session. And particularly if you kind of get stuck on a thought or kind of
(22:30):
feel like you're trapped in, you know, kind of in a dissociative experience. Sometimes music can kind
of help push you through or keep you grounded. And we, we offer a couple curated playlists if
patients don't know what to listen to. But I don't know. I kind of, you know, sometimes patients listen
to stuff that they have a connection with. Usually about, you know, so we don't discourage people if
(22:56):
they want to kind of, you know, tailor their experience to what they want to try listening to. But
we always have backup playlists if, if it's, you know, if it's too weird for them or something. So,
yeah, I think we just think it helps keep people grounded. But it's really important part of the
experience that it kind of helps you to kind of just move through the experience. So, it's about
(23:20):
ketamine is very fast, very fast acting. Music, you can be going one way and one song, it'll take you,
it'll take you somewhere. And then, and you're just going that way and then the song changes and then
just completely change directions and go work on something else. It's just kind of like, if you
move you through it and really it assists in moving through the whole thing. But the whole process is
(23:43):
pretty fast. One of the things I really like about it is nothing, nothing lasts for a long time.
You know, other medicines, you know, if you do LSD or, or still a sideburn, you could be in it for eight
hours and some dark things, I mean, dark things can come up on ketamine, but it's so fast. You're talking
(24:04):
minutes rather than like hours. So, and it just kind of, you just move, you're just moving through it.
And the whole thing is over and about an hour. So, if it does go dark, you move through it. And
you can look back at it and you're generally people don't even remember they had a dark experience,
that it happens. And then they, they, this is like, you move through it, you experience that,
(24:24):
that whatever that was, that was difficult. And then you get to the other side, I did that. I did
this really, I moved that really hard thing and I was able to handle it and I'm okay. And then I
think that's something people can really bring into their daily lives of just like, I can handle this.
I can, I've done hard things. That was really hard. And I did it, but you're just like minutes rather than
hours. It, it, it feels a little empowering, you know, when, you know, a lot of patients are afraid of
(24:49):
being in that space. And once they go into that space and come out of it, but there's a
bit of a, I don't know, some people call it like a hero's journey, or it's like, yeah, I was afraid of
doing something and get it. I faced whatever fears were in there and, and now I'm out on the other side.
So it can be a little empowering too for patients to feel like, you know, I do, I am bigger than my trauma
(25:10):
or, or whatever. So. Right. And then so I'll want, how are these sessions go for? Because I know with
therapy, it's weeks and weeks upon end, how, how do ketamine session therapy sessions typically tend to
last? Each session, individual session lasts about two hours. And then we recommend doing a series.
(25:33):
There's some statistical evidence to suggest that there's a benefit of doing it more than once.
We recommend a series of six and six is kind of an arbitrary number just to, you, you need to take
a break after the series and just see what you get out of the experience. So up to six sessions,
(25:55):
and then, you know, either weekly or, or by weekly and then take a drug holiday, see, see how you feel,
see what you pull out of it and, and then, and oftentimes a lot of people come in maybe quarterly or
twice a year for, for boosters just when they kind of start feeling the benefits wearing off. So
(26:16):
it's kind of individual after that. Yeah. So six is, like you said, it's just a number they, they did
studies on. It's not a magic number. I'm not going to ever tell anybody you do six sessions and then
you, you, you got it. But six is a great number for us to see some pretty big changes. And we,
we typically will see changes after one or two. But six, if we don't see any improvement after six,
(26:42):
we're not going to encourage people to continue on. Not to say that they couldn't benefit from it,
but we, or more six is a really great number for us to kind of work. No, if it's going to work for
them or not, so it's going to change for them. We tend to see changes that we've been six, not 100%.
Some people don't, but we, yeah, we certainly don't want to keep doing something if it's not working.
(27:03):
Most people find that. Okay. Also, too, you were talking about earlier how
ketamine doesn't do the work for you. What, let's say like they're done with the therapy, the
ketamine therapy, what kind of work would they have to keep doing to, to manage?
Like, we always can, we always, you know, we always encourage people to be in therapy, seeing a therapist.
(27:29):
And we usually recommend in-between sessions that they see their therapist to kind of process
the stuff that comes up. We offer a integration group weekly, just on Zoom. And then we also like,
you know, for you, where you let someone with a history of addiction, where you've been involved in
12-step, obviously I would encourage people to continue their doing their 12-step work and going to
(27:53):
meetings. And then just also self-care, you know, taking care of your mind and your body,
getting exercise, good diet. So it's a really a holistic approach, but ketamine is just a small
piece of that where it's, you got to do the other step to kind of take care of yourself, you know,
the hard work, you know. Right. It is just a tool, but it's like a power tool. It's really cool. Like,
(28:17):
we, it's one of the reasons why I'm so excited about it is, as a therapist, I'm not going to say
it's magic, but it's a little bit of magic to it because it does really help people break through
and open up and become, come in contact with what they need to feel to move their stuff. So a lot of
times, you know, we create coping mechanisms and ways to protect ourselves and it's so great that we,
(28:42):
our brain is amazing, what we can do that and it's wonderful. But a lot of times these coping mechanisms,
like disassociation and all the things we do, coping mechanisms aren't inherently bad. They're,
just what we created to get through and to get us where we are now. And so, um, um, ketamine is a
(29:07):
therapist, I'm pretty excited about it because now it's not going to do everything for you, but it
really does connect you to parts of yourself that you might not have access to because of the coping
mechanisms that you've created to to survive and to continue on. And so, um, it's, it doesn't do it all
for you, but there's something really cool about it that I've seen with patients that I didn't see
(29:28):
before just talking, just doing talk therapy or even just doing trauma therapy. Um, I mean,
a lot of times, I mean, trauma is stored in your body and can there a little bit of a kind of a
hack to get into the stuff that you pulled in your body to help you move through it and feel it and
and move, yeah, basically move through it in a way that traditional talk therapy hasn't,
(29:52):
then that great about. So I like what you guys said about how it really helps out, helps you open up
and everything because I do therapy and sometimes I do have like a roadblock. Sometimes I'm just,
I don't want to share some things and whatnot so I can see how ketamine can help open you up.
I don't know if it's similar, but I feel like on on these like holistic, um, holistic treatments,
(30:19):
eye washes like up there, it's like super intense, right? You go somewhere you go to a place that's
fashion, those legit. You see a shaman, you, it's like a few days and years like a lot of purging
involved. It's very intense. It's like zero to 100 and now I'm seeing ketamine is like,
maybe it's in between. It's not last as long. It's not as intense. You go multiple times.
(30:44):
Maybe, yeah, it's definitely not intense as intense. Maybe it's something people might consider if
they want to do something like ayahuasca, but that's too intense. Maybe ketamine might be more
realistic and safe for them. Is that kind of accurate?
Between medicine, I mean, I kind of consider it like a psych, a light psych, not to say that for
(31:06):
everybody. Some people have some really intense experiences, but I think it is a little easier,
it's a little more accessible. Yeah, you're in for two hours rather than a
vegetable days. Yeah, no, I agree. I think it, it also seems to have a little more foot in
Western medicine. And for some people, you know, that feels maybe like some security where you know
(31:28):
licensed professionals, you know, or, you know, kind of watching over you. I think something like
ayahuasca is very powerful, but this is more of sometimes, I don't know if it's the right way to,
I sometimes look at ketamine as maybe a gateway and some people do move on to those more powerful
experiences, but some people ketamines enough for. So it is just a different, you know, just a little bit,
(31:54):
the way you describe it was pretty good. It's kind of, yeah, a little more, it feels a little
safer than kind of going wherever you would go to do ayahuasca or some more involves.
Yeah. And yeah, you know, going back to addiction, like your saying there's definitely a lot of trauma,
like I experienced some trauma growing up and it's just, using was definitely just the thing to do.
(32:17):
It was a thing to escape. And yeah, it's interesting that you told me that a lot of people in 12 step
go to ketamine treatments. I think it, I can see it being very beneficial.
Yeah. You know, and I don't, I'm not very familiar with 12 step of personal, but I do know them the
early days before it turned into what it was. I mean, even today there is a connection with your
(32:42):
higher source, right? Higher power. And I think, really, on, they did use psychedelics early on,
like before it became what it is today, the guy who started it at Bill, I can't remember his name,
there was, there was use of psychedelics because that does connect, there's a little bit of
connecting me to source or to source or to just maybe spirituality. And that is one thing that
(33:10):
I think ketamine can do, it can connect you to your spirituality, it can be spiritual experience, it can,
I'm not going to say everybody has that, you kind of, everybody has a different experience with what
they believe, but there's something about that that kind of connects you to like a feeling of hope
that you might not have before. So I think that it goes along with 12 step, not always going to
(33:36):
agree with me there, but, but I think there is that piece of like connecting to your higher power that
ketamine can help with. The other thing that ketamine, and I know we're at almost
at a time that I wanted to say ketamine is really helpful with helping, and other psychedelics are
really great at helping you connect with yourself compassion in ways that all of the things I knew I
(33:58):
should do before I ever tried, you know, did my own work with it. All of a sudden I started to know,
and like I had started to feel how, feel it rather than just know it. And, and what I mean by that
is just like having self-compassion from myself and and being kinder to myself, I see that with
so many people that they are all the same able to have this compassion, this self-compassion,
(34:19):
and we really need that to heal. We need to be kinder ourselves and we need to have compassion and
and have an understanding of where we come and why we've done what we've done and how we got to where we
are. And I think that's really important when we talk about ketamine and using unbearably is
can really connect people with that in a way that they couldn't connect to before. And in
psychedelics in general are really great at helping with that, but yeah, so that's something I hear a lot
(34:45):
from people. Right, how much time do you guys have? I think a couple more questions and we're,
I think it's like pretty well. A little bit more time. Yeah. What I also liked about ketamine is it,
I felt a little, this is my personal experience. When I was introduced to psychedelics, I was very
hesitant. I told myself, this is a really long trip. I knew if I was in the right mindset, I always
(35:11):
heard that if you're not in the right mindset when you take this, you're going to have a bad trip,
something's going to, you know, you're going to have a really bad time. And for me, I never really knew.
I think deep down, even when I was using, I knew I wasn't in the right mindset. Like deep down,
myself conscious, I knew if I wasn't in the right mindset, I would not be using drugs all the time.
(35:32):
Sure, maybe recreationally, but deep down, I just knew like, man, I felt like I was open up a
can of worms or something's going to like really ruin my day the next few hours. But with ketamine,
it was a cool in between because I liked it. I really did enjoy like, how good it made me feel and I felt
like similar MDMA, like super compassionate, you know, so that's something that I noticed with the
(35:57):
ketamine. Yeah, I mean, I think that's always, I mean, that's a common fear. I think with psychedelics
in general, it's like, what is it going to unlock? And there is that fear of the, you know, your subconscious
is pretty vast and there are things there that we have repressed. And I think if you go into it,
(36:18):
you may not always be in the perfect mindset, but if you go into it with good intentions of like,
I want to see where I can work on, but usually even when those hard things sometimes get unlocked,
it's usually that can be very kind of helpful to unlock them. And okay, here's something I,
there wasn't a wearer of that I want to, you know, there's very obvious ones like, you know, like,
(36:42):
as you said, you, when you were using you were like, okay, I already know what I need to kind of fix,
but if it kind of helped give you some insider self-compassion into it, okay, well, how do I start
to work on fixing that? That can be very powerful as well. So there is the unconscious stuff we don't
that we have it unlocked, you know, the reason you self-medicate, and then there's the other
(37:04):
yes stuff that weighs on our consciousness, but yeah, I mean mindset is important, but I think
you can kind of counterbalance that with kind of intentions to do work rather than just self-medicate.
Also with ketamine, so I felt like I could, I felt okay doing it alone, but with psychedelics,
(37:25):
I was like, I don't know if I should, because typically you need somebody there. Well, unless you're like
in you, so I think the last question is you've talked to really great things about ketamine therapy,
benefits, how it's helped with depression, addiction, and other things. Like, what should people
be mindful of before going into ketamine therapy? And when wouldn't you recommend ketamine therapy?
(37:53):
What was the last question? When wouldn't you recommend ketamine therapy with somebody?
I mean, usually so there's a little bit of a screening process, I'll usually see patients
do a psycho vow. You know, if somebody's actively intoxicated, you know, we usually have, we've had
(38:16):
patients come in on opiates, and with intention to like, I want to use this drug to kind of help me detox.
Usually we require a little bit of sobriety, you know, to before we'll, we'll, you know, usually we
want to engage in some sort of therapeutic process, whether that's individual therapy.
(38:36):
You know, so expectations around, around it. Other stuff, mental health issues like acute psychosis,
like somebody that skits a frenic, or even bipolar that's manic, we don't want them exacerbate or make
the situation worse, you know, make the psychosis worse or the mania. So there's certain psychiatric
(39:04):
diagnosis we would probably say it would be a bad idea to give somebody ketamine.
Some other instance where we've, we've turned people away, we've, we've had, you know, patients' family
members pushing them to do ketamine, you know, family members wanting to fix that patient, and oftentimes
(39:25):
we want the individual to be motivated, you know, or rather than somebody else kind of
stronting, you know, forcing them to do the treatments. That's definitely a no-go. So I can't
think what other situations do you tend to do? I'm not talking about, it would be mindful of doing it.
I would say, you know, choosing the right clinic, doing a little research, looking at reviews,
(39:55):
making sure, you know, finding out and asking questions, to find the right clinic. Now there's a lot
of clinics out there now. They popped up a lot when we started, there weren't a lot, but there's
a lot now. So just being, no, just doing your homework and choosing the right clinic that feels good to you.
I, not that everybody's going to even tell you if they've done it or not, and maybe it's not necessary,
(40:18):
but I've found that trying to find somebody who has done work with it and they know what they're
sending you into is, I think it's important. It's just my own personal opinion, but, but I think,
I think it's important that someone who's going to give you this would have some idea of what they're
sending you into. So just ask questions on that. And, you know, do a little assessment of your own,
(40:40):
your own copy mechanisms and your, your ability to, I mean, it can unlock some things and it can shake
you up and it can create some big emotions and feelings. And so just, you know, making sure that
you're doing good self-care and maybe that even people, you know, love when those are doing it,
because it can really shake things up and then, and it can wait to some, it can be difficult to have
(41:04):
some support if you have it. It's good. And if not making sure you find a clinic that does offer,
you know, some help or support beyond just giving you the ketamine.
Right. I also like what you said about people who administer the ketamine therapy have also gone
through it themselves. I strongly believe in that because for me, if somebody, I mean, it's obvious,
(41:27):
but if somebody who's never touched drugs told me you got to stop doing drugs, I'm, I'd be more
incline to listen to somebody who's gone through it. He said, Hey, man, like, I've been through it.
Like, let's talk. You know, I feel like it comes from a place of experience. Oh, they've been through
it too. They know what they're talking about. So I definitely agree with that. Yeah, I think it's helpful.
(41:49):
I mean, I'm not a reviewer. You know, I can always have that, but I think it's really helpful for
the process. So I mean, sorry. I get it's got your it's got your right. Um, also like, I guess,
are there any side effects? I guess it comes with it. Um, I mean, let's say you do the ketamine therapy
(42:11):
and it wears off. Is there anything that people might be, should be aware of, like, does it kind of
affect you afterwards or is kind of just gone? Well, it's sometimes it can bring up hard stuff
emotionally and and pay, you know, we've had patients say, you know, they didn't like what it brought up
and feel like they're still under some sort of influence of ketamine, which is not really
(42:34):
possible like days out. So it whatever it brought up is kind of manifesting sometimes in a physical,
you know, kind of way for patients. That's rare, but sometimes that happens. The most common side
effect really is nausea. Most people, it's very, it's usually tolerated well about 10, 10% of people
get really bad nausea with it. So that's about it. I mean, if they do, we can pre-medicate with some,
(42:59):
you know, so for an or something like that to help help avoid that the next time. Yeah, what, I mean,
when I was using ketamine, I kind of liked it because there wasn't really like, there was some
sort of a countdown. It's like a stuff knows it like I was kind of out of it, but it wasn't like super
intense. But yeah, I think that concludes the episode. Thank you guys so much. Do you
(43:22):
want to shout out your clinic where you're at? Maybe get the right interested.
Yeah. So the name of the clinic is ketamine therapy at therapeutic alternatives and we're
located in Salt Lake City. Our website is ktherapyslc.com. Okay. Yeah. Right. I think we're on Instagram,
(43:42):
and we're on Instagram. Yeah. I think it's ketamine SLC. It's on our website. I'm sorry. I don't know.
You're good. You're fine. You know, it's funny. When I was searching up like ketamine therapy on
Instagram, right away it says like your input, like whatever you search, like ketamine therapy. Oh,
sounds like you're trying to like buy drugs or sell drugs. Like some help. So I'm like, oh, so, okay,
(44:06):
so I have to like find it to like I think threads Instagram threads. But if you type in ketamine on
Instagram, it's going to think you're trying to buy drugs or sell drugs. Yeah. It's pretty touchy
of like how you use the word ketamine on Instagram and Facebook and stuff. Our Instagram is called
ketamine therapy SLC. And then we've got that website. But yeah, we had to be pretty careful because
(44:30):
they don't like that word. The internet doesn't like that word. Yeah. Well, thank you guys again so
much. I really appreciate your time. Yeah, no problem. I'm going to stop recording here.
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