September 9, 2025 • 25 mins
Episode Highlights With Hannah
- Hannah calls herself a farmer of microbes and she sees fermentation as a sacred practice
- The resurgence of ancient wisdom though regenerative farming
- They do DNA sequencing on all of their cultures
- How to cultivate your microbiome at home by making your own fermented foods
- What to know about fermented products and sugar and why sugar in ferments is different
- How to mitigate excess sugar in kombucha and how sugar in kombucha isn’t a bad thing
- The flavors of health are sour and bitter
- What are we actually feeding? We think it is our bodies but it is also our microbiome so how do we give it what it actually needs
- How fermented foods help remove toxins from the body
- Bacteria affects ancient wisdom and ancestral lineage in the modern world
- What a scoby is and how it is a metaphor for global community
- How to get started with fermentation and it is easier than you think!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hello, and welcome to the Wellness Mama podcast. I'm Katie
from walnesswama dot com and I am back for round
two with my friend Hannah Ruhamana Crum, who is the
author of the Big Book of Kombucha and the founder
of Kombucha Camp, both with a K, and in this episode,
we talk about how kombucha connects us to ancient wisdom,
it helps us with hormone balance and creates my crovial magic.
(00:22):
And Hannah is the expert on this topic. She's affectionately
known as the Kombucha Mama, and she has been brewing
kombucha for a very long time, creating fermentation kits so
that other people can as well, and educating people about
the many, many benefits of fermentation and how we have
lost some of these in our modern lifestyle that doesn't
rely as heavily on fermentation for food preservation anymore. And
(00:45):
I think after this episode you will have a much
deeper understanding of the beauty of these products and how
to make them at home for pennies on the dollar.
Speaker 2 (00:53):
So let's jump in.
Speaker 1 (00:54):
Hannah, welcome back, Thank you for being here again.
Speaker 2 (00:58):
Thank you well.
Speaker 1 (00:59):
If you guys missed our first episode, we got to
really delve into the world of microbes and I learned
a lot, as I always do from Hannah, and in
this episode, I want to go even deeper and talk
about how kombucha and really all farments can connect us
with ancient wisdom, can help our hormone balance and our
and create microbial magic in our lives. I know that
(01:20):
there's so much we got to start talking about in
the first episode. And you call yourself a farmer of microbes,
which I love. Can you explain what you mean by
that and how you view fermentation as a sacred practice.
Speaker 2 (01:32):
Absolutely, you know, we think of farming as something that
happens in the dirt, and what lives in the dirt
will microbes do of course, so in a way, I
think all farmers are bacteria farmers, assuming they have that
consciousness about it. And I would say, what's really exciting
about living in these times is the resurgence of that
ancient wisdom through practices like regenerative farming and things like that,
(01:54):
and really understanding how important and vital the health of
that soil is. Because all these are metaphors the macrocosm
of the microcosm, the soil for humans is in our guts.
That's sort of where our soil lives. And so when
I say I'm a bacteria farmer, I'm not planting anything
in the ground, but rather I am going to what
(02:14):
that organism needs. So this is one of my little
You know, I've cultivated a whole range of sayings and
aphorisms that come from living this lifestyle, and so one
of them is if you give an organism what it
needs to thrive, and that applies to humans just as
much as to our microbes, and so as a bacteria farmer,
(02:35):
it's really understanding observation. And here's the reality and the
frustration with working with microbes and farming is that it's
never one hundred percent. You don't necessarily always get one
hundred percent yield. And yet there's these feedback loops that
are constantly teaching and informing. And in fact, what I've
seen because we do DNA sequencing on our cultures is
that they've evolved over time, and they've evolved because of
(02:58):
the environment they're in. And so by having four cultures together,
all of our cultures have picked up the very best
elements of each of them. Even though we do take
pains to keep them separated and use different utensils. There's
just a natural cohabitation that occurs. And so when you
start cultivating ferments at home, you're engaging in this same
ancient practice where you are cultivating your own microbiome at
(03:23):
home that includes your fermented foods. And this is why
I think making them is so important, is because whatever
issues are going on with you, there's a way that
you can communicate. So like, for example, when when I
tell people to stir the tea for their kombucha, I say, stern, hope, stir.
In dreams, you can you know whisper what's going on
or what it is you need to heal, or how
(03:43):
you want things to change. And this relationship, this process
that you then engage in, really is magical because the
microbes respond. You know, we could even say is the
yeast cultivating us? Or are we cultivating the yeast? Because
they have found many to encourage human beings to give
them a really safe nurturing space, whether that's bread, beer,
(04:06):
or whatnot.
Speaker 1 (04:07):
And I know in today's world, we hear a lot
of talk about metabolic health, and we know that over
ninety percent of Americans at least have some marker of
metabolic dysfunction, and that this seems to be on the rise,
and it seems like when it comes to sugar and fermentation,
there's a lot of misconceptions about this kind of in
the realm of metabolic health, and that perhaps a lot
of people have thrown out the baby with the bathwater
(04:29):
when it comes to fermented products because they're worried, potentially
rightfully worried about excess sugar consumption. So walk us through
what we need to know about when it comes to
fermented products and sugar.
Speaker 2 (04:40):
So, sugar is the backbone of life. Your DNA is
built on a sugar phosphate backbone. So sugar is ubiquitous,
and it's a ubiquitous food source. Animals seek out sugar,
human beings seek out sugar, Microbes seek out sugar. And
so when we say sugar, what are we talking about?
Because it can come in many forms, And I I
think that you know the black and whiting if you will,
(05:03):
if that's a verb of terms, right, So sugar bad,
sugar good, right, But we don't distinguish what are we
talking about? So what I'm referring to is sugar that
is created by a grass that human beings have been
harvesting for five thousand plus years, and that would be
sugar cane, which is sucrose, which is a disach rite,
(05:24):
so it's a complex carbohydrate. And the yeast excretes invertase,
which is an enzyme that cuts that carbohydrate in half.
So now you have the fructose and glucose and free
form because the microbes need the simple sugars in order
to process them. And you could say this exact same
process is what is happening in our bodies when we're
consuming sugar such as table sugar. Right, if we're just
consuming table sure, that's what could be going on. And
(05:47):
so then our bodies have to exert through insulin production,
the ability to break down those complex carbohydrates. And so
when we combine complex carbohydrates with fermented foods, and there
have been some human trials conducted, she we miss there's
a lower spike on the insulins because those fermented foods
are helping you to process those complex carbohydrates. Unfortunately, in
(06:09):
our processed fruits world, there's so many you know, low
calorie sugar substitutes, and those are made in labs. They
are shown to cause cancer they are. Sometimes they're not
even gonna leave your body ever, And so I think
unfortunately we've been tricked into thinking, oh, these are better
substitutes than the sugar that naturally occurs in the world
(06:30):
because of the collabor of the lack of calories, when
in fact, when we consume the foods that our ancients have,
we already have pathways for dealing with those as opposed
to than never feeling full or never having enough and
therefore not getting what we need out of it. But
I think that from a commercial standpoint, unfortunately, for kombucha,
(06:52):
we are required to put the final sugar post fermentation
as an added sugar, even though we're not adding sugar
after the fermentation, and that's because sugar is used in
the primary fermentation process. And so this can be really
confusing to consumers because they'll go, oh, I want the
kombucha with no added sugar, and I'm like, well, all
kombucha has sugar. That that's how it's made. If you're
(07:14):
looking for the one with no added sugar, you might
be consuming a kombucha bron concentrate where they've you know,
created a vinegar, added water and flavorings. Then you're Essentially,
I always say any kombucha's better than no kombucha, But
from a sort of purest standpoint, the one that's closer
to when you might make at home is obviously going
to have more nutritional value, and those are going to
(07:35):
say added sugar on the label.
Speaker 1 (07:38):
And I know when we make it at home, we
also actually have a little bit more control in the
way in how much of that sugar gets fermented out
and how much is like recognized as sugar in our body.
Because my understanding, and you can explain this much better
than I can, is that the scopeia is essentially using
the sugar as fuel for the fermentation. So the longer
it ferments, you end up with a more sour potentially kombucha,
(07:58):
but less sugar. What is trying to really watch their
sugar intake? Could making it at home and doing a
little bit longer of a ferment and then maybe even
doing a secondary ferment with fruit juice for flavor. Could
that help kind of mitigate some of the sugar that
they might see in a commercial one.
Speaker 2 (08:12):
Absolutely, And the sugar is the it's the teaspoon of
sugar that helps medicine go tound what we really want
are those organic acids, and so having a little sweetness
at the end helps us to enjoy the flavor profile,
so we don't feel like we're forcing vinegar into our bodies.
That said, the flavors of health are sour and bitter,
because those the flavors that help our bodies to digest.
(08:36):
So making your ferments at home obviously gives you the
most amount of control over the sugar remaining. And people
will want some sort of test and how do I know?
And I would say, honestly, your body knows best and
your tongue is the very best indicator, because while we
can take these tests, they don't necessarily translate into flavor
and what your body's actually receiving. And I think that
(08:57):
also again goes to the notion that you know you
have this idea every calorie is identical, it's not where
you're getting it from. What elements are contributing to the
caloric value of that food is actually more important than
how many calories it contains, because if their calories coming
from processed foods with very little nutritional value and allergenic products,
(09:20):
that's going to have a wicky, worse impact than something
that's nutrient dense and may have a higher calorie count.
And so I would say making your own ferments at
home is going to give you that freedom to ferment
it as long as it needs for the flavor you enjoy,
while also trusting that a lot of the sugar is gone.
And here's the other thing about it is, again it's
already been converted from a complex carbohydrate into something that's
(09:43):
easier for your body to absorb and digest. And so
when we're saying sugar and kumbujo, we're not just talking
about soucros. It really is in those simpler forms that
makes sense.
Speaker 1 (09:54):
And I talk a lot about kind of what I
call my micronutrient theory of health, and to your point
about all calories not being equal, I think in our
distillation of nutrition to simply calories as fuel, we miss
this really big piece, which is that our friend JJ says,
the body is not a bank account, it's a chemistry lab.
And we might be getting enough baseline calories but not
getting enough nutrients. And I think this is why we
(10:15):
see the phenomenon of people being having plenty of calories
but being undernourished or even malnourished, because we're not getting
the baseline nutrients that we need, things like protein and
these essential starches and healthy fats, and that if we
don't in micronutrients, If we don't get those, our body
is so wise. It will continue to create food even
if it doesn't need calories, because it needs those nutrients
(10:36):
to survive. And so I know fermented foods are such
a rich source of so many of those micronutrients that
are not present as much in our modern lifestyle. So
I loved it. This is an easy way to introduce them,
and we touched a little bit on this in our
first episode, but I would love to talk about how
fermentation and especially kombucha can be supportive for hormone balance,
especially for women. And I know big topics are things
(10:58):
like PMS and cycle changes, and we're also perimenopause for
a lot of the listeners.
Speaker 2 (11:03):
Well, I really want to build on what you said
about micro nutrients because I think it goes back to
what are we feeding. We think we're feeding this big
giant human being, and in fact we're feeding microbes, and
so I really think that what you're saying and what
doses do we need things in We've been programmed to
think more is better, and that is so often not true,
especially when they're in those chemicalized formats. And so getting
(11:24):
these nutrients in that living form again, as I said,
not necessarily in massive doses, but in forms that our
bodies can literally instantly use an update because when we
look at those chemical shapes, they're different in a synthetic
version versus a living version. I'm talking of course about
you know, the carbon and the all the molecules and
how they're drawn. Well, these are keys. If you're trying
(11:45):
to put the wrong shape key into the lock, what's
going to happen. It's not going to work, It's not
going to do what it's supposed to. When you have
the right key in the right lock, boom, everything works.
And so this to your point about hormones, is also
really important because there are so many hormone disruptors in
our current system. And those include you know, BPAs from receipts,
(12:07):
They include microplastics, they include a whole litany of different
things that we're exposed to. Again, if it's only a
little bit here or there might not be so bad,
but the aggregate is what's really causing lots of weird
changes in people from puberty happening too young to inconsistent periods.
And I think unfortunately for women, we haven't had a
(12:28):
really good, healthy conversation around the value of healthy men sees.
And I think that's shifting because I think so many
people are like, oh, this is like there can be
some negative emotions attached to it that really don't need
to be there. Because from my perspective, you know, I'll
be fifty coming up this year and I still have
a regular mensies and my goal is to maintain that
(12:49):
as long as I can, because fertility is such a
key indicator of health. And it doesn't mean because then
I want to have children per se. It's more that
by maintaining this healthy cycle, know that my body is
doing everything it needs. And that's not to say that
menopause isn't healthy. Of course it is, because it's something
that happens to everyone. And the more we can do
to support that hormone health. And so again, what are
(13:11):
these fermented foods doing. What we've already talked about, they're
helping to remove toxins from the body. Literally with kombucha,
those the gluconic acid bonds to toxic molecules and like
a bouncer, escorts them out of your body through going
pe hydrolysis. It's a powerful key lator. And so where
do we store toxins in the body. They end up
sequestered into our fat cells. And again, this is why
(13:33):
we need to be mindful when we go on in
some sort of detox protocol, because sometimes we detox too
quickly and the body can't handle it if we haven't
cleared our pathways. But when you know, I've had women
who went through menopause started drinking kobucha their period came back. Now,
that may not have been the side effect they were intending,
but I think what it demonstrates is it starts to
clear out congestion in the body and starts to bring
(13:56):
things back into balance. Now I won't even pretend that
I'm perfectly healthy, because I live in this toxic world
just like everyone else, and so of course fermented foods
are there supporting me. But the thing I've had to
realize is there's I need support in other ways. I
can't just do it your diet, and I think that's
just a reflection of where we are in our society.
Speaker 1 (14:17):
Yeah, unfortunately, it feels like that's true. And even I've
had Chris Cresser on this podcast, who was for a
very long time a fan of get everything from food
when possible, and even he has said now it's no
longer possible with our modern food supply there it is
become in order to be optimally healthy, we actually must supplement.
And there's a lot, of course personal factors that come
into play there. And I'm with you on of course,
(14:38):
still try to get as much from natural sources and
from food whenever possible, make sure we get enough sunlight,
make sure we get good sleep, all those things, and
when our bodies requesting it, also supplement when necessary. And
as you're talking about all these benefits of kombucha, I
know you also have the fermentation kits available. And so
if anybody's never made kombucha before, I just want to
add an encouragement to attempt make can it at home,
(15:00):
because I know when I started, I found it was
a lot simpler than I expected. I thought it was
going to be a lot more complicated than it was.
And it's literally pennies on the dollar compared to buying
kombucha at the store, especially if you like me, have
a lot of kids at your house that that adds
up very quickly and you're getting a more robust microbe
more likely when you're making it at home. And I
would also love to talk about some of the more
(15:21):
broadways you speak about kombucha, because we've had these in
person conversations and I think they're so valuable. You talk
about how kombucha reflects ancient wisdom and ancestral lineage in
a modern wellness world, and I would love to bring
this element in because I feel like this part is
not often talked about.
Speaker 2 (15:38):
Absolutely, you know, when you're consuming the byproduct of a
culture that has learned how to coexist. I mean, these
are completely different branches on the tree of life. Bacteria
in the east and of course bacteria least yeast live
inside and honest and we are I mean part of
why I college Bacterio sapiens is not only do we
(15:59):
need them forever function in our body, we're kind of
shaped like them, right, Like the word bacteria comes from greed,
which means rod shaped, so rad if you're thinking rod shape, well,
we have this tubular body, We have these tubular appendages,
like we are totally tubular. We are a reflection of
bacteria and even the way that they, for example, do
(16:21):
gene transfer. Right, so when a bacterium dies, it's going
to spill out its DNA material. Other microbes can come
and scoop that up. The way I see that reflected
in our society today is memes. Right, there's a kernel,
there's a DNA structure to a meme, and yet everyone
puts their own twist on it, and we see how
(16:42):
it evolves. I would say human consciousness does the same thing.
We build on the information, wisdom and knowledge of the
people who came before us, and we do this in
a way that's very reflective of the microbes that are
in our body. And I think this is again why
when we see gut dysbiosis and things like this, when
we see moods completely change, or we see how you know,
(17:03):
personalities might even change, because we so need the healthy
microbes and that healthy balance for us to do it.
And again, remember these are practices that people thousands of
years engaged in. Imagine you are continuing on in a
lineage that human beings have revered and considered sacred for
(17:25):
so long. And when we allow ourselves give ourselves permission
to fully feel what that is and to understand and
witness the cycles of life. Again, our calendar doesn't totally
write our New Year's in January, which is the dead
of winter. We know, actually it used to be right now.
Hence April Fool's Day was because they changed the calendar.
(17:46):
And if you didn't remember that or didn't get the
news flash that spring was no longer the beginning of
the year, you were considered a fool. And yet isn't
it foolish that we have tried to shape time in
a way that is out of alignment with the souls
of nature? And I think that there's a huge movement,
in a huge consciousness putting us back into alignment with
(18:06):
these cycles because we're recognizing, oh, we need the sun
in the morning in our eyes so that we have
the hormones we need in order to sleep at night,
and all of this sort of you know, ancient wisdom
is really being validated through scientific inquiry because unfortunately we've
gone the opposite direction and we've created so much harm
with our modern technology and that are living through chemistry.
(18:28):
I love that.
Speaker 1 (18:29):
And I've also heard you speak of the scobe as
a metaphor for global community and.
Speaker 2 (18:34):
We've used the word scobe.
Speaker 1 (18:35):
I would love for you to define what a scoby
is for anybody who's never brewbusha, and explain what you
mean by it being a metaphor for global community.
Speaker 2 (18:44):
Goby it stands for symbiotic culture of bacteria and yeast.
And I want to explain this, but first I want
to lament slightly, because unfortunately there's been this myth that
the scobe is the liquid and not the pellicle, and
that the pellicle is garbage. And I cannot tell you
(19:05):
how much that hurts my heart. And I don't say
this as someone who sells pellicles. I say this as
someone who recognizes that nature doesn't make mistakes. I mean,
how long did we think that tonsils were irrelevant or
what do you mean an appendix for only to find
out later that it was incredibly vital that we retain
our body parts and not just cut them out lily nilly.
(19:26):
And so the scobie is this manifestation of microbes that
have learned how to cohabitate together, and I think that
is a powerful metaphor for the world we're in now.
I know there's a lot of division, there's a lot
of inflammation, there's a lot of you know, propaganda on
many sides that is causing people to literally see family members,
(19:50):
to see people in their community as others, as people
to fear or to demonize, and that is the most
horrific outcome we can ever see in a situation, because
the reality is we share so much more in common
than what divides us, and I think unfortunately we're being
asked to focus on issues that are so far out
(20:11):
of our scope of control, out of what we're able
to even exert, that we lose the recognition that just
on a daily basis having a smile, exuding a positive vibe,
reaching out to people, seeing where they are, as opposed
to only reflecting. This heightened state of again inflammation is
(20:34):
what I want to call it. This heightened state of
inflammation that we're being asked to carry is what's creating
this division. Because at the end of the day, we
all really want the same things. We want to be loved,
we want to be safe, we want to have delicious,
nourishing foods. We want to have rich, deep intimate connections
(20:55):
with ourselves with other people, and that is really challenged
when you're dealing with a body that's inflamed when you're
dealing with a mind that's inflamed. And so I think
the metaphor of the scope as a global community is
one of hope and positivity. And it's when we start
to consume again the byproduct of something that already lives
(21:18):
in harmony. We start to cultivate harmony within ourselves and
then we can exude that to the rest of the world.
Speaker 1 (21:25):
That's such a beautiful answer, and it makes me think
of a quote from my friend and Ball, who said,
a calm mind, a fit body, and a happy home.
These cannot be bought and they must be built. So
no matter how much money you have, you can't buy
those things. There are all things we have to cultivate
in our lives. And I know we've gotten to have
such beautiful conversations in person around this. I'm glad we
got to bring it to the podcast as well. Is
(21:47):
there anything else that I haven't asked you that people
may not know about fermentations that you feel like is
really relevant and you want to share.
Speaker 2 (21:54):
There's just start that's the real answer. Like, here's the
funny thing, right everyone, They're like, oh, I follow this
ups to the recipe isn't supposed to be perfect. I mean,
anyone who has ever tried to learn how to bake
a cake or mof for bread, or execute any task.
It takes practice, and honestly, it's the practice that's worthwhile.
(22:14):
It's not having the perfect and result. Sure that's wonderful,
but that doesn't feel as good if it didn't take
the time and investment to get there. And so just
taking that first step, investing in yourself doing something that
maybe feels scary or weird, because why you're gonna find out, Oh,
it's just a process. And when I execute the process
of the steps, I'm mostly successful and there will be
(22:35):
times when it isn't and that's okay, and it doesn't
even necessarily mean you did anything wrong. But I think
reconnecting people to process, to not getting instant gratification, to waiting,
to cultivating something, to having that patience is so valuable
because in this TikTok world where you're constantly scrolling. Myself
(22:56):
included that dopamine addiction can be really hard to break,
and this is a way that we can easily, for
not a lot of money and for very little time investment,
come back to process and cycle and nature, and it
just feels so nourishing on a deep cellular level as
well as on that spiritual level.
Speaker 1 (23:17):
I love that, And I know we touched on this
in our first episode, but for anyone who hasn't heard
that episode, walk us through all of the ways to
get into permentation that you offer and where people can
learn more about how to do it, where you would
recommend them starting. I'll put all the links in the
show notes as well.
Speaker 2 (23:33):
Absolutely, we are Kobucha Camp, Camp of the k because
we cute and clevil oh wahee. And we also have
our book, The Big Book of Kombucha, pretty straightforward. You
can find it in any library and anywhere books are sold.
Of course, we also have them at Kombucha Camp. It's
four hundred pages. People call it the Bible. We're so grateful.
We put a decade at least of our research and
(23:53):
information into that book, and we're so grateful people still
find so much value in it. El Kombucha, her Raw
Honey Cousin, John Water, Kiefer, and Milk Kaffear. But of course,
if you have any fermentation questions, we're always happy to
help and direct you to other sources. We're on all
socials at Kambucha Camp and love to engage. We've had
(24:14):
a lot of fun making some memes and things, so
hope you'll come check us out and see how fun
fermentation can be. I love it well.
Speaker 1 (24:22):
As I said, all those links will be in the
show notes at wellnesswama dot com if you guys are
listening on the go. If you missed our first episode,
I will link to that in the show notes as well.
It was fascinating and we got to go in so
many directions about fermentation and microbes and Hannah, you are
always such a wealth of knowledge and an absolute joy
to talk to you. Thank you so much for your
time and for all that you've shared.
Speaker 2 (24:43):
Thank you, Katie. Always great to see you.
Speaker 1 (24:46):
And thank you as always for listening and sharing your
most valuable resources, your time, your energy, and your attention
with us today. We're both so grateful that you did
and I hope that you will join me again on
the next episode with the Wellness Mama podcast. If you're
enjoying these interviews, would you please take two minutes to
leave a rating or review on iTunes for me. Doing
(25:07):
this helps more people to find the podcast, which means
even more moms and families can benefit from the information.
I really appreciate your time and thanks as always for listening.
Hello, and welcome to the Wellness Mama podcast. I'm Katie
from walnesswama dot com and I am back for round
two with my friend Hannah Ruhamana Crum, who is the
author of the Big Book of Kombucha and the founder
of Kombucha Camp, both with a K, and in this episode,
we talk about how kombucha connects us to ancient wisdom,
it helps us with hormone balance and creates my crovial magic.
(00:22):
And Hannah is the expert on this topic. She's affectionately
known as the Kombucha Mama, and she has been brewing
kombucha for a very long time, creating fermentation kits so
that other people can as well, and educating people about
the many, many benefits of fermentation and how we have
lost some of these in our modern lifestyle that doesn't
rely as heavily on fermentation for food preservation anymore. And
(00:45):
I think after this episode you will have a much
deeper understanding of the beauty of these products and how
to make them at home for pennies on the dollar.
Speaker 2 (00:53):
So let's jump in.
Speaker 1 (00:54):
Hannah, welcome back, Thank you for being here again.
Speaker 2 (00:58):
Thank you well.
Speaker 1 (00:59):
If you guys missed our first episode, we got to
really delve into the world of microbes and I learned
a lot, as I always do from Hannah, and in
this episode, I want to go even deeper and talk
about how kombucha and really all farments can connect us
with ancient wisdom, can help our hormone balance and our
and create microbial magic in our lives. I know that
(01:20):
there's so much we got to start talking about in
the first episode. And you call yourself a farmer of microbes,
which I love. Can you explain what you mean by
that and how you view fermentation as a sacred practice.
Speaker 2 (01:32):
Absolutely, you know, we think of farming as something that
happens in the dirt, and what lives in the dirt
will microbes do of course, so in a way, I
think all farmers are bacteria farmers, assuming they have that
consciousness about it. And I would say, what's really exciting
about living in these times is the resurgence of that
ancient wisdom through practices like regenerative farming and things like that,
(01:54):
and really understanding how important and vital the health of
that soil is. Because all these are metaphors the macrocosm
of the microcosm, the soil for humans is in our guts.
That's sort of where our soil lives. And so when
I say I'm a bacteria farmer, I'm not planting anything
in the ground, but rather I am going to what
(02:14):
that organism needs. So this is one of my little
You know, I've cultivated a whole range of sayings and
aphorisms that come from living this lifestyle, and so one
of them is if you give an organism what it
needs to thrive, and that applies to humans just as
much as to our microbes, and so as a bacteria farmer,
(02:35):
it's really understanding observation. And here's the reality and the
frustration with working with microbes and farming is that it's
never one hundred percent. You don't necessarily always get one
hundred percent yield. And yet there's these feedback loops that
are constantly teaching and informing. And in fact, what I've
seen because we do DNA sequencing on our cultures is
that they've evolved over time, and they've evolved because of
(02:58):
the environment they're in. And so by having four cultures together,
all of our cultures have picked up the very best
elements of each of them. Even though we do take
pains to keep them separated and use different utensils. There's
just a natural cohabitation that occurs. And so when you
start cultivating ferments at home, you're engaging in this same
ancient practice where you are cultivating your own microbiome at
(03:23):
home that includes your fermented foods. And this is why
I think making them is so important, is because whatever
issues are going on with you, there's a way that
you can communicate. So like, for example, when when I
tell people to stir the tea for their kombucha, I say, stern, hope, stir.
In dreams, you can you know whisper what's going on
or what it is you need to heal, or how
(03:43):
you want things to change. And this relationship, this process
that you then engage in, really is magical because the
microbes respond. You know, we could even say is the
yeast cultivating us? Or are we cultivating the yeast? Because
they have found many to encourage human beings to give
them a really safe nurturing space, whether that's bread, beer,
(04:06):
or whatnot.
Speaker 1 (04:07):
And I know in today's world, we hear a lot
of talk about metabolic health, and we know that over
ninety percent of Americans at least have some marker of
metabolic dysfunction, and that this seems to be on the rise,
and it seems like when it comes to sugar and fermentation,
there's a lot of misconceptions about this kind of in
the realm of metabolic health, and that perhaps a lot
of people have thrown out the baby with the bathwater
(04:29):
when it comes to fermented products because they're worried, potentially
rightfully worried about excess sugar consumption. So walk us through
what we need to know about when it comes to
fermented products and sugar.
Speaker 2 (04:40):
So, sugar is the backbone of life. Your DNA is
built on a sugar phosphate backbone. So sugar is ubiquitous,
and it's a ubiquitous food source. Animals seek out sugar,
human beings seek out sugar, Microbes seek out sugar. And
so when we say sugar, what are we talking about?
Because it can come in many forms, And I I
think that you know the black and whiting if you will,
(05:03):
if that's a verb of terms, right, So sugar bad,
sugar good, right, But we don't distinguish what are we
talking about? So what I'm referring to is sugar that
is created by a grass that human beings have been
harvesting for five thousand plus years, and that would be
sugar cane, which is sucrose, which is a disach rite,
(05:24):
so it's a complex carbohydrate. And the yeast excretes invertase,
which is an enzyme that cuts that carbohydrate in half.
So now you have the fructose and glucose and free
form because the microbes need the simple sugars in order
to process them. And you could say this exact same
process is what is happening in our bodies when we're
consuming sugar such as table sugar. Right, if we're just
consuming table sure, that's what could be going on. And
(05:47):
so then our bodies have to exert through insulin production,
the ability to break down those complex carbohydrates. And so
when we combine complex carbohydrates with fermented foods, and there
have been some human trials conducted, she we miss there's
a lower spike on the insulins because those fermented foods
are helping you to process those complex carbohydrates. Unfortunately, in
(06:09):
our processed fruits world, there's so many you know, low
calorie sugar substitutes, and those are made in labs. They
are shown to cause cancer they are. Sometimes they're not
even gonna leave your body ever, And so I think
unfortunately we've been tricked into thinking, oh, these are better
substitutes than the sugar that naturally occurs in the world
(06:30):
because of the collabor of the lack of calories, when
in fact, when we consume the foods that our ancients have,
we already have pathways for dealing with those as opposed
to than never feeling full or never having enough and
therefore not getting what we need out of it. But
I think that from a commercial standpoint, unfortunately, for kombucha,
(06:52):
we are required to put the final sugar post fermentation
as an added sugar, even though we're not adding sugar
after the fermentation, and that's because sugar is used in
the primary fermentation process. And so this can be really
confusing to consumers because they'll go, oh, I want the
kombucha with no added sugar, and I'm like, well, all
kombucha has sugar. That that's how it's made. If you're
(07:14):
looking for the one with no added sugar, you might
be consuming a kombucha bron concentrate where they've you know,
created a vinegar, added water and flavorings. Then you're Essentially,
I always say any kombucha's better than no kombucha, But
from a sort of purest standpoint, the one that's closer
to when you might make at home is obviously going
to have more nutritional value, and those are going to
(07:35):
say added sugar on the label.
Speaker 1 (07:38):
And I know when we make it at home, we
also actually have a little bit more control in the
way in how much of that sugar gets fermented out
and how much is like recognized as sugar in our body.
Because my understanding, and you can explain this much better
than I can, is that the scopeia is essentially using
the sugar as fuel for the fermentation. So the longer
it ferments, you end up with a more sour potentially kombucha,
(07:58):
but less sugar. What is trying to really watch their
sugar intake? Could making it at home and doing a
little bit longer of a ferment and then maybe even
doing a secondary ferment with fruit juice for flavor. Could
that help kind of mitigate some of the sugar that
they might see in a commercial one.
Speaker 2 (08:12):
Absolutely, And the sugar is the it's the teaspoon of
sugar that helps medicine go tound what we really want
are those organic acids, and so having a little sweetness
at the end helps us to enjoy the flavor profile,
so we don't feel like we're forcing vinegar into our bodies.
That said, the flavors of health are sour and bitter,
because those the flavors that help our bodies to digest.
(08:36):
So making your ferments at home obviously gives you the
most amount of control over the sugar remaining. And people
will want some sort of test and how do I know?
And I would say, honestly, your body knows best and
your tongue is the very best indicator, because while we
can take these tests, they don't necessarily translate into flavor
and what your body's actually receiving. And I think that
(08:57):
also again goes to the notion that you know you
have this idea every calorie is identical, it's not where
you're getting it from. What elements are contributing to the
caloric value of that food is actually more important than
how many calories it contains, because if their calories coming
from processed foods with very little nutritional value and allergenic products,
(09:20):
that's going to have a wicky, worse impact than something
that's nutrient dense and may have a higher calorie count.
And so I would say making your own ferments at
home is going to give you that freedom to ferment
it as long as it needs for the flavor you enjoy,
while also trusting that a lot of the sugar is gone.
And here's the other thing about it is, again it's
already been converted from a complex carbohydrate into something that's
(09:43):
easier for your body to absorb and digest. And so
when we're saying sugar and kumbujo, we're not just talking
about soucros. It really is in those simpler forms that
makes sense.
Speaker 1 (09:54):
And I talk a lot about kind of what I
call my micronutrient theory of health, and to your point
about all calories not being equal, I think in our
distillation of nutrition to simply calories as fuel, we miss
this really big piece, which is that our friend JJ says,
the body is not a bank account, it's a chemistry lab.
And we might be getting enough baseline calories but not
getting enough nutrients. And I think this is why we
(10:15):
see the phenomenon of people being having plenty of calories
but being undernourished or even malnourished, because we're not getting
the baseline nutrients that we need, things like protein and
these essential starches and healthy fats, and that if we
don't in micronutrients, If we don't get those, our body
is so wise. It will continue to create food even
if it doesn't need calories, because it needs those nutrients
(10:36):
to survive. And so I know fermented foods are such
a rich source of so many of those micronutrients that
are not present as much in our modern lifestyle. So
I loved it. This is an easy way to introduce them,
and we touched a little bit on this in our
first episode, but I would love to talk about how
fermentation and especially kombucha can be supportive for hormone balance,
especially for women. And I know big topics are things
(10:58):
like PMS and cycle changes, and we're also perimenopause for
a lot of the listeners.
Speaker 2 (11:03):
Well, I really want to build on what you said
about micro nutrients because I think it goes back to
what are we feeding. We think we're feeding this big
giant human being, and in fact we're feeding microbes, and
so I really think that what you're saying and what
doses do we need things in We've been programmed to
think more is better, and that is so often not true,
especially when they're in those chemicalized formats. And so getting
(11:24):
these nutrients in that living form again, as I said,
not necessarily in massive doses, but in forms that our
bodies can literally instantly use an update because when we
look at those chemical shapes, they're different in a synthetic
version versus a living version. I'm talking of course about
you know, the carbon and the all the molecules and
how they're drawn. Well, these are keys. If you're trying
(11:45):
to put the wrong shape key into the lock, what's
going to happen. It's not going to work, It's not
going to do what it's supposed to. When you have
the right key in the right lock, boom, everything works.
And so this to your point about hormones, is also
really important because there are so many hormone disruptors in
our current system. And those include you know, BPAs from receipts,
(12:07):
They include microplastics, they include a whole litany of different
things that we're exposed to. Again, if it's only a
little bit here or there might not be so bad,
but the aggregate is what's really causing lots of weird
changes in people from puberty happening too young to inconsistent periods.
And I think unfortunately for women, we haven't had a
(12:28):
really good, healthy conversation around the value of healthy men sees.
And I think that's shifting because I think so many
people are like, oh, this is like there can be
some negative emotions attached to it that really don't need
to be there. Because from my perspective, you know, I'll
be fifty coming up this year and I still have
a regular mensies and my goal is to maintain that
(12:49):
as long as I can, because fertility is such a
key indicator of health. And it doesn't mean because then
I want to have children per se. It's more that
by maintaining this healthy cycle, know that my body is
doing everything it needs. And that's not to say that
menopause isn't healthy. Of course it is, because it's something
that happens to everyone. And the more we can do
to support that hormone health. And so again, what are
(13:11):
these fermented foods doing. What we've already talked about, they're
helping to remove toxins from the body. Literally with kombucha,
those the gluconic acid bonds to toxic molecules and like
a bouncer, escorts them out of your body through going
pe hydrolysis. It's a powerful key lator. And so where
do we store toxins in the body. They end up
sequestered into our fat cells. And again, this is why
(13:33):
we need to be mindful when we go on in
some sort of detox protocol, because sometimes we detox too
quickly and the body can't handle it if we haven't
cleared our pathways. But when you know, I've had women
who went through menopause started drinking kobucha their period came back. Now,
that may not have been the side effect they were intending,
but I think what it demonstrates is it starts to
clear out congestion in the body and starts to bring
(13:56):
things back into balance. Now I won't even pretend that
I'm perfectly healthy, because I live in this toxic world
just like everyone else, and so of course fermented foods
are there supporting me. But the thing I've had to
realize is there's I need support in other ways. I
can't just do it your diet, and I think that's
just a reflection of where we are in our society.
Speaker 1 (14:17):
Yeah, unfortunately, it feels like that's true. And even I've
had Chris Cresser on this podcast, who was for a
very long time a fan of get everything from food
when possible, and even he has said now it's no
longer possible with our modern food supply there it is
become in order to be optimally healthy, we actually must supplement.
And there's a lot, of course personal factors that come
into play there. And I'm with you on of course,
(14:38):
still try to get as much from natural sources and
from food whenever possible, make sure we get enough sunlight,
make sure we get good sleep, all those things, and
when our bodies requesting it, also supplement when necessary. And
as you're talking about all these benefits of kombucha, I
know you also have the fermentation kits available. And so
if anybody's never made kombucha before, I just want to
add an encouragement to attempt make can it at home,
(15:00):
because I know when I started, I found it was
a lot simpler than I expected. I thought it was
going to be a lot more complicated than it was.
And it's literally pennies on the dollar compared to buying
kombucha at the store, especially if you like me, have
a lot of kids at your house that that adds
up very quickly and you're getting a more robust microbe
more likely when you're making it at home. And I
would also love to talk about some of the more
(15:21):
broadways you speak about kombucha, because we've had these in
person conversations and I think they're so valuable. You talk
about how kombucha reflects ancient wisdom and ancestral lineage in
a modern wellness world, and I would love to bring
this element in because I feel like this part is
not often talked about.
Speaker 2 (15:38):
Absolutely, you know, when you're consuming the byproduct of a
culture that has learned how to coexist. I mean, these
are completely different branches on the tree of life. Bacteria
in the east and of course bacteria least yeast live
inside and honest and we are I mean part of
why I college Bacterio sapiens is not only do we
(15:59):
need them forever function in our body, we're kind of
shaped like them, right, Like the word bacteria comes from greed,
which means rod shaped, so rad if you're thinking rod shape, well,
we have this tubular body, We have these tubular appendages,
like we are totally tubular. We are a reflection of
bacteria and even the way that they, for example, do
(16:21):
gene transfer. Right, so when a bacterium dies, it's going
to spill out its DNA material. Other microbes can come
and scoop that up. The way I see that reflected
in our society today is memes. Right, there's a kernel,
there's a DNA structure to a meme, and yet everyone
puts their own twist on it, and we see how
(16:42):
it evolves. I would say human consciousness does the same thing.
We build on the information, wisdom and knowledge of the
people who came before us, and we do this in
a way that's very reflective of the microbes that are
in our body. And I think this is again why
when we see gut dysbiosis and things like this, when
we see moods completely change, or we see how you know,
(17:03):
personalities might even change, because we so need the healthy
microbes and that healthy balance for us to do it.
And again, remember these are practices that people thousands of
years engaged in. Imagine you are continuing on in a
lineage that human beings have revered and considered sacred for
(17:25):
so long. And when we allow ourselves give ourselves permission
to fully feel what that is and to understand and
witness the cycles of life. Again, our calendar doesn't totally
write our New Year's in January, which is the dead
of winter. We know, actually it used to be right now.
Hence April Fool's Day was because they changed the calendar.
(17:46):
And if you didn't remember that or didn't get the
news flash that spring was no longer the beginning of
the year, you were considered a fool. And yet isn't
it foolish that we have tried to shape time in
a way that is out of alignment with the souls
of nature? And I think that there's a huge movement,
in a huge consciousness putting us back into alignment with
(18:06):
these cycles because we're recognizing, oh, we need the sun
in the morning in our eyes so that we have
the hormones we need in order to sleep at night,
and all of this sort of you know, ancient wisdom
is really being validated through scientific inquiry because unfortunately we've
gone the opposite direction and we've created so much harm
with our modern technology and that are living through chemistry.
(18:28):
I love that.
Speaker 1 (18:29):
And I've also heard you speak of the scobe as
a metaphor for global community and.
Speaker 2 (18:34):
We've used the word scobe.
Speaker 1 (18:35):
I would love for you to define what a scoby
is for anybody who's never brewbusha, and explain what you
mean by it being a metaphor for global community.
Speaker 2 (18:44):
Goby it stands for symbiotic culture of bacteria and yeast.
And I want to explain this, but first I want
to lament slightly, because unfortunately there's been this myth that
the scobe is the liquid and not the pellicle, and
that the pellicle is garbage. And I cannot tell you
(19:05):
how much that hurts my heart. And I don't say
this as someone who sells pellicles. I say this as
someone who recognizes that nature doesn't make mistakes. I mean,
how long did we think that tonsils were irrelevant or
what do you mean an appendix for only to find
out later that it was incredibly vital that we retain
our body parts and not just cut them out lily nilly.
(19:26):
And so the scobie is this manifestation of microbes that
have learned how to cohabitate together, and I think that
is a powerful metaphor for the world we're in now.
I know there's a lot of division, there's a lot
of inflammation, there's a lot of you know, propaganda on
many sides that is causing people to literally see family members,
(19:50):
to see people in their community as others, as people
to fear or to demonize, and that is the most
horrific outcome we can ever see in a situation, because
the reality is we share so much more in common
than what divides us, and I think unfortunately we're being
asked to focus on issues that are so far out
(20:11):
of our scope of control, out of what we're able
to even exert, that we lose the recognition that just
on a daily basis having a smile, exuding a positive vibe,
reaching out to people, seeing where they are, as opposed
to only reflecting. This heightened state of again inflammation is
(20:34):
what I want to call it. This heightened state of
inflammation that we're being asked to carry is what's creating
this division. Because at the end of the day, we
all really want the same things. We want to be loved,
we want to be safe, we want to have delicious,
nourishing foods. We want to have rich, deep intimate connections
(20:55):
with ourselves with other people, and that is really challenged
when you're dealing with a body that's inflamed when you're
dealing with a mind that's inflamed. And so I think
the metaphor of the scope as a global community is
one of hope and positivity. And it's when we start
to consume again the byproduct of something that already lives
(21:18):
in harmony. We start to cultivate harmony within ourselves and
then we can exude that to the rest of the world.
Speaker 1 (21:25):
That's such a beautiful answer, and it makes me think
of a quote from my friend and Ball, who said,
a calm mind, a fit body, and a happy home.
These cannot be bought and they must be built. So
no matter how much money you have, you can't buy
those things. There are all things we have to cultivate
in our lives. And I know we've gotten to have
such beautiful conversations in person around this. I'm glad we
got to bring it to the podcast as well. Is
(21:47):
there anything else that I haven't asked you that people
may not know about fermentations that you feel like is
really relevant and you want to share.
Speaker 2 (21:54):
There's just start that's the real answer. Like, here's the
funny thing, right everyone, They're like, oh, I follow this
ups to the recipe isn't supposed to be perfect. I mean,
anyone who has ever tried to learn how to bake
a cake or mof for bread, or execute any task.
It takes practice, and honestly, it's the practice that's worthwhile.
(22:14):
It's not having the perfect and result. Sure that's wonderful,
but that doesn't feel as good if it didn't take
the time and investment to get there. And so just
taking that first step, investing in yourself doing something that
maybe feels scary or weird, because why you're gonna find out, Oh,
it's just a process. And when I execute the process
of the steps, I'm mostly successful and there will be
(22:35):
times when it isn't and that's okay, and it doesn't
even necessarily mean you did anything wrong. But I think
reconnecting people to process, to not getting instant gratification, to waiting,
to cultivating something, to having that patience is so valuable
because in this TikTok world where you're constantly scrolling. Myself
(22:56):
included that dopamine addiction can be really hard to break,
and this is a way that we can easily, for
not a lot of money and for very little time investment,
come back to process and cycle and nature, and it
just feels so nourishing on a deep cellular level as
well as on that spiritual level.
Speaker 1 (23:17):
I love that, And I know we touched on this
in our first episode, but for anyone who hasn't heard
that episode, walk us through all of the ways to
get into permentation that you offer and where people can
learn more about how to do it, where you would
recommend them starting. I'll put all the links in the
show notes as well.
Speaker 2 (23:33):
Absolutely, we are Kobucha Camp, Camp of the k because
we cute and clevil oh wahee. And we also have
our book, The Big Book of Kombucha, pretty straightforward. You
can find it in any library and anywhere books are sold.
Of course, we also have them at Kombucha Camp. It's
four hundred pages. People call it the Bible. We're so grateful.
We put a decade at least of our research and
(23:53):
information into that book, and we're so grateful people still
find so much value in it. El Kombucha, her Raw
Honey Cousin, John Water, Kiefer, and Milk Kaffear. But of course,
if you have any fermentation questions, we're always happy to
help and direct you to other sources. We're on all
socials at Kambucha Camp and love to engage. We've had
(24:14):
a lot of fun making some memes and things, so
hope you'll come check us out and see how fun
fermentation can be. I love it well.
Speaker 1 (24:22):
As I said, all those links will be in the
show notes at wellnesswama dot com if you guys are
listening on the go. If you missed our first episode,
I will link to that in the show notes as well.
It was fascinating and we got to go in so
many directions about fermentation and microbes and Hannah, you are
always such a wealth of knowledge and an absolute joy
to talk to you. Thank you so much for your
time and for all that you've shared.
Speaker 2 (24:43):
Thank you, Katie. Always great to see you.
Speaker 1 (24:46):
And thank you as always for listening and sharing your
most valuable resources, your time, your energy, and your attention
with us today. We're both so grateful that you did
and I hope that you will join me again on
the next episode with the Wellness Mama podcast. If you're
enjoying these interviews, would you please take two minutes to
leave a rating or review on iTunes for me. Doing
(25:07):
this helps more people to find the podcast, which means
even more moms and families can benefit from the information.
I really appreciate your time and thanks as always for listening.
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