Episode Highlights With Jaban
- What PANS and PANDAS are, and what the key differences are
- The different causes of the same neuropsychiatric symptoms and figuring out the underlying issue
- There are adult versions of these conditions as well
- Early warning signs of PANS and PANDAS to watch for in children and the autism connection
- Autoimmune encephalitis symptoms in kids and why this can be so dramatic
- Why this can be a very fast onset and can be triggered by illness
- 75% of adults in the US have some form of chronic symptom
- Kids have a less developed blood-brain barrier and can experience these symptoms more strongly
- What recovery from PANS and PANDAS looks like, and what factors to address
- Why not take an extreme treatment approach that overwhelms the body
- What his roadmaps for healing look like and the order he follows to best support the body
- Supplements that are specifically helpful with things like PANS and PANDAS
- When medications are helpful and what else to do alongside them
- When you remove the reasons the body is stressed, it's no longer stressed
- The top diet and lifestyle supportive steps to let the body heal he most commonly uses and why he doesn’t do long term restriction
- Dr. Jaban’s website, his Instagram, TikTok, and Facebook
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hello, and welcome to the Wellness Mama podcast. I'm Katie
from Wellnessmama dot com and this episode is all about
pans and pandas, what they are and understanding how to
thrive through these childhood neuroimmune disorders. And if you're not
familiar with these, doctor Jabon gives a lot of detailed
understanding about what they are, what's connected to them, what
(00:21):
causes them, and the very nuanced way to work through
treatment to not make things worse, and how full recovery
is in fact possible with the right understanding of what's
going on in your particular body. And Doctor Jabn Moore
and his team run the Redefining Wellness Center in Kansas City, Missouri,
and also see clients virtually worldwide. He helps you will
(00:44):
in all walks of life and with all ranges of conditions,
and he specializes in lime mold, pans and pandas, autism,
parasitic infections, and environmental toxicities. As you will immediately hear
in this episode, he is abundance of knowledge and very
good at explaining these concepts in easy to understand and
key takeaway format. So let's learn from doctor Jabin Moore.
(01:06):
Doctor Jabin, welcome back. Thank you for being here again.
Speaker 3 (01:09):
Oh thanks for having me. I love it well.
Speaker 1 (01:11):
We had an incredible first episode together, this time recording
all about mold, and you explained so brilliantly a multifaceted
approach for finding out if there's been mold issues and
treating it and how it relates to so many other
things that might be going on in the body. And
I will link to that one in the show notes.
In this one, I would love to switch gears and
tackle another topic that might be really relevant to a
(01:32):
lot of parents listening, and that some people listening might
not even realize how relevant it is to them. And
that is the topic of pans and pandas, And I
think to start broad, I would guess people have heard
those terms, but in case they haven't, can you define
for is what they are and what the key differences
are between the two.
Speaker 2 (01:49):
So pans and pandas is alphabet soup, it's pediatric neural
onset of a psychiatric disorder caused by straps.
Speaker 3 (01:56):
That's pandas.
Speaker 2 (01:57):
PANS is basically the exact same thing not caused by
strap So it's any causation out there. So what it
boils down to, scientifically speaking, is your brain has inflammation
happening due to an immune response triggered by something. So
(02:21):
in Panda's case, it's triggered by strap By Pans, it
can be caused by mold toxicity, lime disease, parasites, viruses, trauma, honestly,
anything that generates an immune system reaction. So, for those
of listening, if you've ever heard of rheumatarthritis, MS, Trogrin's, lupus,
(02:41):
any of these autoimmune conditions, it's thought, and I've got
a lot of thoughts on this, but it's thought that
your body is attacking the A tissue type. So in rheumatarthritis,
your bones, in lupus, it could be your skin and
many of these other things.
Speaker 3 (02:57):
It could be your.
Speaker 2 (02:57):
Muscles or anywhere in your body, but your by what
he is attacking itself for in Western medicine, no known reason.
And I give that caveat because I oftentimes have found reason,
and there's even research on pub med to suggest many
reasons for these types of diagnosises. And in Pans Panda's case,
the pediatric piece means the P at the front.
Speaker 3 (03:19):
It's kids.
Speaker 2 (03:20):
If you take away the P, it's just called ando,
so it's an adult version of it, So it can
affect anybody.
Speaker 3 (03:27):
So, yeah, that's the letter soup there for you.
Speaker 1 (03:30):
And I have some personal friends who have had children
who are personally affected by this, and I've seen how
dramatically it can impact someone's life. What are some of
the early warning signs that parents can be aware of
and pay attention to, hopefully if this is something that's
going to become an issue, catch it early on.
Speaker 2 (03:47):
Yeah, So it's kind of an interesting one and I
want to give a little background on it. It was
discovered in twenty twelve by doctor Sweeto who was a
researcher at NIH for autism. And what happened, to make
the long story short, some kids just didn't fit all
the parameters for what true autism was, but they were
(04:09):
definitely dealing with something neurological that was affecting their outward
presentation of life. So eventually studies were done. Research was found,
and they named it PANS or PANDAS, which is the
autoimmune andencephalitis situation. And it can look very similar to
autism of all different varying severities, but it's motor ticks, movements,
(04:33):
verbal tics, it's anxiety, whether that be just general anxiety,
social anxiety, separation anxiety. It can be a very fast
onset and that's where the PANS PANDAS diagnosises are given.
As if you have an illness or some sort of
immune response where a person is sick, and then within
(04:53):
about two weeks you end up having this.
Speaker 3 (04:58):
Change.
Speaker 2 (04:58):
You have these symptoms developed pretty rapidly. Now that's the
criteria for PANS PANDAS. If that's not what you experienced
as a parent, or maybe you just didn't notice because
you're like, oh, they're recovering, they're feeling better, they're not
all the way there, and you don't report it quick enough.
It could fall into the ANDAs, which is just or
AE autoimmunion cephalitis. And AS would be the adult version,
(05:20):
but AE autom munie cephalitis category. And these symptoms can
be loss of handwriting. The kids with PANS typically get
diagnosed later, more of like the four year old to
eight year old or even up to fourteen year old
age range. So you can have loss of handwriting, you
can start doing more poorly in school. Odd adhd add
(05:43):
are all a part of this TURETS. About twenty five
percent of people tested with turets ended up with finding
inflammation in the brain, and just to throw a little
caveat at that, the Cunningham panel is a test that
initially gained ground as being part of that gold stand
and are diagnostics. So besides the symptoms I've mentioned the
(06:04):
pattern of it has to happen within two weeks for
pans and pandas, but if it's longer than that, then
it's ae. The cunning Amd panel is an antibody test.
It's five antibodies that are for the brain that if
their positive, can say yeah, we have the autoimmune scephalite
is happening. There's been a lot more advancement. There's a
test from Vibrant America called a neural Zoomer plus and
(06:27):
it's got somewhere around fifty markers and they use this
in my clinic all the time where we can run
a test to go, Okay, is there inflammation happening to
the brain due to the immune system?
Speaker 3 (06:37):
Yes or no?
Speaker 2 (06:38):
And if it's a yes, then awesome, let's go figure
out why. So that's where we run down that rabbit
hole of lyne mold.
Speaker 3 (06:44):
Parasite, bacteria, et cetera.
Speaker 2 (06:47):
Yeah, if you have these tests positive, then we know
that there's inflammation happening, and we now can go, Okay,
these symptoms that my child is experiencing, depression, irritability, food restriction,
these symptoms can actually be correlated back to inflammation in
the brain. It's not just them, and that's how they're
(07:10):
differentiating optism from pans pandas in some regard as this
autoimmune inflammatory brain situation. And the studies are showing even
eight nine years ago, this was one in two hundred
kids is what they expected. And I think the number
is just massively higher than this because most kids that
(07:37):
you've ever met that are on ADHD meds or have
difficulty in school anxiety or depression, have never had their
brain tested, So we just don't know.
Speaker 3 (07:47):
The real number.
Speaker 1 (07:49):
And that makes sense, and it makes sense how this
can be such a dramatic impact, especially on kids, and
especially you mentioned so quickly. Why is it more specific
to children or why do the infect like strap seemed
to have this severe neuropsychiatric sort of trigger and symptoms
in kids especially, And as a secondary part of that
in your experience, is it possible to overcome this in
(08:10):
our kids? It seems like this is a growing problem.
Is it possible to reverse it?
Speaker 3 (08:15):
Absolutely, it's possible to reverse it, and I'll get to that.
But why is it?
Speaker 2 (08:20):
Why is strep affecting kids more? Or is it I
don't really know that it is affecting kids more. I mean,
look at the mental health crisis that we're experiencing in
this nation of the United States and much less around
the world. Depression is the second leading cause of people
for taking disability. Anxiety seems rampant. I mean when I
(08:42):
ask I asked a client just yesterday because she's in
Michael and and she came in she was nearly bedridden,
couldn't work anymore, just debilitating symptoms. And I have people
rate zero to ten. So she rated her anxiety, depression, irritability,
brain fog, fatigue, digestive functional symptoms all around eight or
nine when she came in, and yesterday she was like
(09:04):
two or three. And it's been it's been a while.
We've been working together for a yearyear and a half.
And I asked her because I always ask people like,
what what's your frame of reference for giving me a
two or three as a symptom? So well, I just
feel like I could be better. And although that's very possible.
I go, where's your frame of reference? Go ask your friends,
And the funny thing is, seventy five percent of adults
(09:27):
over the age of forty the United States have some
sort of chronic symptom or chronic condition. So she went
out and asked her friends. She's like, oh my gosh,
everybody I know is struggling. Everyone is struggling. She like,
I almost found no one that wasn't struggling. So just
to say, are infections affecting adults?
Speaker 3 (09:49):
Absolutely?
Speaker 2 (09:51):
I think if you just sitting here listening, just go
ask to your ten best friends and sentence, Wellna's mama.
I imagine there's a lot of mamas, a lot of women.
Women are much better to communicate with than men. Men
as a confine. So all the women go ask ten
of your friends, are you struggling with something? And if
they open up to you, the answer is likely going
(10:12):
to be yes. I had one girl ask nine out
of ten of her friends at a digestive issue. This
woman said, ten out of ten of her friends are
having mental health struggles. I mean, that's incredibly high prevalence.
So I think it's happening adults and children. We have
understood it in children more because you put thirty little
(10:34):
kids in a room with an adult and they're struggling
and they're acting out, and you're you're more likely to
not be able to handle a classroom. A lot of
teachers and are now putting up those red flags if
something's not right and then telling the parents to.
Speaker 3 (10:51):
Figure it out.
Speaker 2 (10:52):
So I think it's being called on a lot more
than maybe as an adult, where you have the cognitive
capacity to really just step back and say, I still
got to go to work, still got to pay the bills,
still got to get up on my own responsibility. Whereas kids,
when a kid tells you that they are having intrusive
(11:13):
thoughts and they don't want to exist.
Speaker 3 (11:15):
Anymore, or.
Speaker 2 (11:18):
They want to harm themselves, I think that throws up
a lot more red flag than an adult who knows
that if you say that in society it might not
be taken nearly as well, and so a lot of
times it's hidden. I'm not giving the excuse that we
shouldn't tell people. We should and we should get help,
we should not have to be having intrusive thoughts, But
(11:40):
I think kids they just say things, They just act
certain ways and it's more honest. Adults are hiding a
lot more from my experience, because many of the people
I work with, you know, they put off a front
and nobody around them knows nearly what they're experiencing. But also,
kids don't have a blood brain barrier that is as developed,
(12:04):
So when we are below the age of twenty four,
our brain is still developing. Our protective mechanism around our
brain is still developing. So I think that these things
do potentially happen a little faster, and it's possible to
happen more often, but I think that's outweighed by adults
just having more insults to their immune system, more toxins,
(12:25):
and more stress. So I feel like they probably happen
at similar rates, just for different reasons. So when your
brain is more vulnerable because we don't have that protective mechanism,
we also, for men, don't have the same amount of testosterone.
Testosterone seems to improve the immune system's ability to respond,
so they say, oh, you're going to grow out of this. Potentially,
(12:46):
when puberty hits, males will have that increased antabolic nature
and may see reduction symptom. But if they don't, they're
also bigger, faster, stronger, and mental health wise not good.
And we also see suicide rates going up, we see
aggression going up. So I've worked with kids where at
(13:09):
extreme levels and this is not the normal, but the
extreme levels, they're aggressive, They're physically aggressive, they actually blackout
because they have this inflammatory response in their brain. They
do not remember what's happening. And they've grown their father
through a wall because they're seventeen to two hundred pounds.
So in extremely levels this can become very, very problematic.
(13:31):
Or I've got a seventeen year old girl who's working
with who won't leave the house. Got a twenty four
year old girl that I just just actually met in
person in California, and she's dealing with very extreme symptoms
with positive testing for brain inflammation. So when the blood
brain barriers open, infections can get there easier, toxin can
(13:52):
get in there easier, and until it's closed, the brain
is a little more vulnerable. So I'd say, as a
really long winded explanation of yeah, there's a reason why
kids might have more vulnerability. However, adults damage that same
barrier by drinking alcohol andhaling mold, putting on toxins, onto
their tissues and their skin brama overworking under sleeping, So
(14:19):
I'm not really sure how much more vulnerable kids really are.
Speaker 1 (14:22):
That makes sense, and it also speaks to you. I
think adults are capable of hiding a lot more. And
of course the inner work and the trauma side is
a whole nother piece that could be many episodes all
on its own, and was a big missing piece for
me as well. That you explained really well the immune
disregulation and inflammation side of this, and how just like
when we talked about mold, like so many things seemingly
are overlapping and connected when it comes to something as
(14:45):
nuanced as pans or pandas, I would love to shift
into talking about where's even the starting point for addressing this.
I feel like I gave a lot of hope that
you said, yes, this can be overcome, and I would
guess it's not a simple one approach, one supplement, one
answer to fix it. But I would love to delve
into the recovery side a little bit as well, and
what are some of the ways we can support kids
(15:06):
who have pans or pandas and what does that recovery.
Speaker 3 (15:09):
Road look like. The first thing is identification.
Speaker 2 (15:11):
You have to figure out what's going on, so find
a provider because this is extremely nuanced and there's a
higher risk that as you go through treatment there are
going to be some ups and downs. So whatever symptoms
you're seeing, if you don't deal with the problem, are
going to get worse on their own doing nothing. But
(15:33):
if you are dealing with the problem, when you, let's say,
go after strap, it is going to release into toxins,
It's going to create a higher immune flair, and you
may increase symptoms short term. And whether you're dealing with
an adult or a child dealing with this, you need
to mitigate a lot of those side effects because we're
(15:53):
dealing with that nervous system immune system response.
Speaker 3 (15:56):
And if you just.
Speaker 2 (15:57):
Simply say let's go, we're going to white knuckle our
way through this, we can handle it, you're actually going
to put the body into a tail spin that sometimes
it is really hard to get out because you force
it further into fight or flight, triggering bigger, longer potentially
and I don't want to use the word permanent as
in forever, but what will seem permanent because it makes
(16:19):
it last longer, so longer lasting symptom problems. So no,
do not just hurks and go through it. Do not
just white knuckle your way through this. Do not find
a provider who is just like, take take these high
doses of whatever that is, antibiotics, ibig plasma, paresis, herbal
cocktails of cleanses, detoxes, and eventually we're gonna get to
(16:42):
this side.
Speaker 3 (16:42):
It's gonna be okay. Don't do that. So figure out
what the problem is. Do the testing.
Speaker 2 (16:48):
How much information do we have in the brain, What
infections and toxins are we dealing with, How suppressed is
the mitochondria, How depleted are we with nutrients? Step one
for me oftentimes is get all that information and create
a roadmap. My roadmaps look like this. There's a starter category.
So let's figure out what nutrients we can bring in.
Are we depleted of sodium potassium? Refer back to my
(17:10):
mold talk on the way that this is important. But
if you don't have sodium potassium, detoxication movement of talks
ins out of your body is going to be hard.
Make sure your michochondria are healthy. So go to that
organic acid test. Because a lot of times with kids,
if their mitochondria is suppressed, you go into cell danger response,
which is a I don't know when this was discovered,
(17:32):
probably last twenty years. It's where your body's immune system
goes into I'm in danger, attack everything, and eventually it
can lead to apoptosis, which is cell death. So instead
of that cell allowing itself to get in facted with
viruses or turn into a cancer cell, it's supposed to
cause itself to die. While this is happening right before it,
(17:57):
it's kind of attack everything and really side of kind
storms and inflamatory responses, and your body feels miserable as
you're going through this. So we need to figure out
how not to push the body into that and how
to mitigate the body from what level that it's in.
And oftentimes with kids, we are trying to use things
(18:19):
like we're still stinging at all, Chinese skull cap, Japanese
not weed. We're bringing these calmbing immune modulating herbs in.
We can also use homopathics and for those and hire
more extreme cases, we can bring in medications like low
dose no trezone. We can use antihistamine, diet to homeopathic
(18:44):
to herb to medication as necessary, depending upon what's going
to be working for that person. So we have to
modulate the immune system after we figure out so tests
don't guess, modulate the immune system so that we can
get the body under control to stop having more reactions,
(19:05):
to create a safe environment. And that doesn't just mean,
you know, we're not getting shot at.
Speaker 3 (19:10):
That means the.
Speaker 2 (19:12):
Toxins from mold, VOCs from the house water that we drink,
which one hundred and seventy million Americans are drinking radioactive water.
So we got to fix that for those who are
dealing with that. So if you live in Miami, most
of California, Chicago, and a lot of other places, water's radioactive.
Speaker 3 (19:32):
So we got to fix that.
Speaker 2 (19:34):
Make sure that the food reating isn't putting more toxins
and harm and stress, which is yes, pesticides and organophosphates
and all that, but it's also histamine foods that are
going to generate more immune response because you're fueling more histamines,
which the histamines can't go to the brain and cause
more flares, more inflammation. So stop fueling the immune system
with more particulates that can create more irritation. So after
(19:59):
we have a safe environment, then we have to go
to the nervous system, and we have to go, do
you feel stressed out even though now we've created a
safe environment and most of the time the pattern is
set and the answer is yes. So that's where we
do somatic and lymbic and vaguel nerve exercise, which adults
is basically physical therapy for the brain. For kids, it's
harder because if they're below fourteen, getting them to do meditation,
(20:26):
breath work, I exercises, thought pattern recognition and retraining is
going to be very difficult. So sometimes it's more emotional
freedom technique. It's more of the vagus nerve exercises, which
can be some breath work, holding.
Speaker 3 (20:43):
Breath, cold shower, those sorts.
Speaker 2 (20:45):
Of things, which getting a young kid to do some
of these is a little harder. So then we can
go into neural feedback and then from there. I actually
haven't delved into this, but this past week and I
got a neural therapy session with a natural path clement
in La, which are injections of procaine around ganglia of
(21:05):
nerves in my body, and by doing this it helped
to reset, just like turning your computer on and off,
your autonomic nervous system, which is basically saying you've been
stuck in fight or flight for a long time because
you let's say you lived in a MOULDI house, or
you had a traumatic marriage, or you had a childhood
that was traumatic. Well, let's say you're now safe from
all that, but your body may not know it yet,
(21:27):
it may still be stuck in that fire flight or
freeze pattern. This is how you go in and reset
it using a very short half life twenty minute anesthesia
that calmbs the nervous system and it just gives you
that reset. And honestly, for me, I didn't have a
great reason to do this besides the say to my clients,
I've done it, I've experienced, I can tell you what
(21:48):
the procedure feels like. But after leaving, I was pretty
nervous system wise balanced. I've down through primal trust and
some other things. I've actually lost like four pounds in
like four.
Speaker 3 (21:59):
Days, So I'm like, wow, my body.
Speaker 2 (22:01):
Probably had some subconscious level of stress that was keeping
cortisol and water attention elevated. And by no means am
I mad that I've lost four or five pounds in
four days. So getting the nervous system under control, so
We've gone from tests to let's make sure that we
have the appropriate environment, the proper nervous system, immune modulation.
(22:25):
Those are four steps I've gotten so far. Anything you
want to ask questions on before, I keep going, O.
Speaker 1 (22:29):
Keep going on making notes.
Speaker 2 (22:30):
So all right, so we get into the next phase
of this, which now is we've got the tests, we've
got the environment, we've got the nervous system, we got
the immune modulation. Now we've got to go into actually
dealing with whatever we found. So in many cases, the
order that I'm going to go and this is based
off of what we found.
Speaker 3 (22:49):
For you.
Speaker 2 (22:50):
If you had everything, it would be this parasite, bacteria
colonizing mold, and then mold, toxins that are just inside
your body, environmental toxicities, heavy metals, viruses, and then fungus.
So those are the categories of infections and tox and
them to go through in that order based off of
(23:14):
your body's needs. So that's a common order, not necessarily
the order of your body will have. It does not
work for everybody, but about seventy percent of time that's
what I would go on with the ones that you have.
So if you don't have heavy metal then I'm just
gonna skip that step and then keep going down the list.
So that would be an order that we're going to
go in. But with people that have immune system issues.
(23:35):
So if you're autoimmune yourself, if you have pants pandas,
if you have AE autommunisesphalitis, then your body when I
go in to press it to detox or to deal
with infections, it's going to flare up. So that's where
that initially immune modulation piece came into play, and it's
also where we have to go at the pace your
body can let us. So for me, if I'm gonna
(23:56):
take Para three from self War, I'm going to do
thirty drafts three times a day as my standard.
Speaker 3 (24:01):
A built dose.
Speaker 2 (24:04):
You may not be able to handle that because your
body is more reactive because the immune system is more
and not fight or flights. Even with all the work
we've already done, all these things are still inside you
creating that fight or flight. So we may have to
fore use or at ten drops three times and build
up slowly. So if you have an increase of your
symptoms due to any phase of the work that we're
(24:24):
doing more than twenty percent increase, I am going to
stop us or pivot us, or bring in something to
support your body, because hermetic stresses have been studied, so
good stress, going to the gym, it's good for us,
right except for when we work out too hard and
we end up with wrapping my lisis, which means we
worked out too hard. Same thing with detoxing. If you
(24:45):
have a twenty percent increase, that's probably part for the course.
So if your symptoms previously were a five out of
ten on fatigue and now we go to six, it
takes a little energy to detox, I'm okay with that.
If you go to a nine, not okay, We've got
to do something different. So that's why recording our symptoms
once a month for me, and we actually document that
(25:05):
every month to make sure that we're moving in the
right direction. We're not going too hard. If we ever
have it flare up too far, then that's where we go, Okay,
what's going on? Is the body not handling this? Do
we need to bring more immune modulation, Do we need
to do more detox support. Do we need to just
go slower for this body? Because if we don't have
the energy to handle it, so we have to go
in there and figure out what your body's needing, and
(25:26):
we move through each phase of what I've talked about
on my roadmap until we get to the end, and
ideally in the end of this, because I told you
there's the starters, and then we get to the stressors,
which is what we've been talking about now, all the stressors,
the infections, of toxins, the traumas. Then we go to
the effects. So at the end of all the stressors
being dealt with the effects, which is going to be
(25:48):
mitochondrial dysfunction, neurotransmitter dysfunction, and every symptom you gave me
when we got started, those things should be improved. So
I'm not doing Western medicine where I'm going let's attack
this pure infection, or let's attack this diagnostic criteria. I'm saying,
(26:08):
let's optimize your body to the best of its possible outcome.
Remove anything that's stressing it. Empty out the backpack of stress, trauma, infections, toxins.
I call them all little boulders or all little books
that you're carrying around. Empty the backpack of all that,
and you'll feel a ton lighter and your symptoms.
Speaker 3 (26:29):
Are going to fade out.
Speaker 1 (26:31):
Wow, that was so comprehensive, and I love that you
even address things like the limbic, somatic and bigel nerve side.
I feel like I was a very slow learner on
the importance of those pieces and the importance of addressing trauma.
And I've talked before about how it was actually when
I dove into those pieces that all the physical stuff
I had been doing for years actually started really having
an effect. And so I feel like this is a
(26:52):
not it talked about enough piece that is seemingly connected
to all aspects of our health. And on my own journey,
I had autoimmune thigh issues. So I had hashimotos years
ago and now it is fully resolved. My most recent
test had no detectable antibody, so it's not just even
in remission, but it's not present in my body at
this moment. So I have tremendous faith in the body's
(27:12):
ability to heal. And it sounds like you have such
a beautiful, detailed approach for working with each individual body
in moving toward healing. And I'm curious kind of two things.
Are there any supportive dietarian lifestyle factors that people can
do and implement immediately if they're dealing with something like
pants or pantas and in light of my own hashimotos example,
is this something that can fully resolve or is this
(27:34):
more of like ongoing management. Do you see complete improvement
in people with this long term?
Speaker 3 (27:40):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (27:41):
So yes, it can resolve. Yes, it can't go away.
I've got like I was talking about the kid earlier.
You know, he's in college now, so tons of symptom
resolution a decade later. I've got other kids that I
get pictures from their parents of you know, they were
nine when we ended our active care and all though,
I'll still see the parent come in and tweak things
(28:03):
here and there for just optimized living symptomatically speaking, and
they're just like, we're good.
Speaker 3 (28:09):
So it can absolutely resolve.
Speaker 2 (28:11):
If you remove the reasons why the body is stressed,
it's no longer stressed.
Speaker 3 (28:15):
Right.
Speaker 2 (28:15):
If you remove a job from your life as a
ton of stress and you get a job you like,
you feel a lot better.
Speaker 3 (28:20):
The old one doesn't come back.
Speaker 2 (28:22):
As far as diets, I've got an opinion on diets.
I don't love talking diets. And part of that is
outside of eating a organic, whole food macro balance meaning
somewhere around thirty to forty percent of whatever macro you
like the best of each one.
Speaker 3 (28:39):
You should be fairly healthy.
Speaker 2 (28:42):
So I like to put together something that people really
can do for a lifetime, not something people are going
to do for a short period of time.
Speaker 3 (28:50):
When I talk about outcomes, however.
Speaker 2 (28:54):
When I'm in a sticky situation with clients and they
have immune issues, pans panned. I'm looking at do we
have oxalates which can and kids get to the brain
very easily. Oxalates are a byproduct of mold, yeast or diet.
So I do put people on an oxalate free diet
or low diet if we found oxalates in their organic
(29:14):
acid test to decrease the amount of immune irritation and
blood vessel and just simply inflammation generation that oxalts are
going to cause. And you can see kids see positive
response from that fairly quickly, so that can take a
bit of an edge off. And the other one is
a histamine diet, So decreasing histamines when you have an
autoimmune condition is going to decrease that overall immune response.
(29:38):
The problem is I hate restricting people's diets, and when
you do both of those diets combined, which I do
have a diet.
Speaker 3 (29:46):
Guide for that.
Speaker 2 (29:46):
It's pretty restrictive. So this is not something I want
to do long term. This is something that can be
done for a few months as we're getting things under control.
But I do not want people to hear me saying
go oxalate free or diet a histamine free, die long term,
because it is not a way of life that is
long term going to be beneficial. It is going to
end up creating problems of its own, just like any diet,
(30:09):
carnivor kedo, vegan. None of these are meant to be
done for a lifetime. They are not balanced. In ninety
nine percent of cases, there's always that, and there's gonna
be that influencers that's going to come and scold me
and say I've been this way forever and I'm good.
I'm gonna say great. Ninety nine percent of people should
not be on these restrictive diets long term, whether that's
(30:30):
for their mental health, their nutrient absorption health, their genetic
absorption and processing health are simply just best physical outcomes.
So yes, his toamat and ox that can show fast
change results, but you have to be doing the other
stuff too.
Speaker 1 (30:46):
I think that's such important caveat to understand. And I
also was on a very restrictive autoimmune diet for a
while and eventually realized my goal was not to feel
good and to thrive when eating this very narrow range
of foods and being in a very structured lifestyle where
we're doing all these things every day. The ultimate goal
was actually to use those things as tools and to
move toward healing so that my body was more resilient
(31:08):
and could handle whatever inputs I would put in it.
Even I still choose whatever possible, like really healthy inputs, however,
to be able to thrive and not have huge negative
symptoms if I eat something out at a restaurant and
I don't know the sourcing, or if I am exposed
to something in my environment. And that was a long
journey for me, and I feel like it's been so worthwhile.
And I love that you said, you know, this is
not a lifetime, long term thing.
Speaker 2 (31:29):
These are like.
Speaker 1 (31:29):
Tools that can be used. It seems like often we
can get stuck in the restriction and then that feels
so limiting long term. And I love how both of
our topics we got to cover. There's so much personalization
and it sounds like you really do a tremendous amount
of detailed analysis and testing to help people figure out
they're very specific pieces. For somebody who's going through any
(31:49):
of the things we've talked about, where can they find you?
I know you have a ton of informational resources and
that you work with people directly, So where can people
find you and learn from you?
Speaker 3 (31:58):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (31:59):
I want to reinforce the It's a pet peeve of
mine when people and I see it all the time.
I'm at conferences, i'm speaking, i'm teaching, I'm at dinner,
and the influencers, the speakers, the doctors live a extreme
restrictive lifestyle, so they are preaching what they're doing. So
(32:23):
I appreciate that they are connected to what they're doing
and what they're saying, and they are.
Speaker 3 (32:31):
Ingruent.
Speaker 2 (32:33):
But if you say I'm in remission, resolved and it's
over and it's gone and I've healed yet you're living
this extreme restrictive lifestyle.
Speaker 3 (32:45):
No, it's not.
Speaker 2 (32:46):
You have a band aid on it. You stop the bleeding,
which is a step of it. I've got many clients
that are that's where they are at in their journey.
They they've gotten to the point where as long as
they do a few things, they're feeling pretty good. But
there's more to go to get to freedom. And I
admit something on purpose on these podcasts on calls, so
(33:08):
that people know that, yes, I still eat organic food,
and I still eat a healthy diet, and I still
work out six days a week. I have a air
doctor in my home.
Speaker 3 (33:18):
I got four of them.
Speaker 2 (33:19):
I drink distilled or reverse osmosis water, depending upon where
I'm at. I do a lot of these things that
I think are just long term health needs. But if
I'm out at a restaurant I'm with friends, I enjoy
having cocktail. Sometimes alcohol is bad for you. It is
a toxin. It is going to flare your body up,
and it will create inflammation. So hear me out, I
(33:41):
know that sometimes I enjoy the taste of it, and
my body has no long term side effects and it
can adapt to that stress. So if you cannot step
away from your habits without having a major crash, you
might have a little bit more to go. And I
just wanted to reinforce that for people and say, increase
(34:01):
your resilience to where it can adapt to stress, whatever
that stress is that you want to do. Does it
run a marathon because that's stressful. Does it have a
glass of wine with your friends, is it eat a
burger and French fries? Whatever it is, it may not
be good for you, but your mental health is also important,
and massively restrictive lifestyles will break most people eventually and
(34:23):
do just as much damage as my cocktail. So I'm
not suggesting you should go drink. I'm just saying, do
not get stuck in a rut where you are so
restrictive that it eventually will cause likely more stress on
your nervous system. And you can find me if after
(34:44):
all of that that you still want to see me.
You can find me at doctor Jabenmore, which is dr
period Jaba and Mre. Come to our website you can
see as virtually across the world or my Instagram. We're
educating all the.
Speaker 1 (34:56):
Time and I will link to those. I think both
of our episod zos have really highlighted that healing is
absolutely possible when you understand how to support the body
in all of the ways it's requesting to be supported
through your symptoms. And I love how detailed your approaches
and how personalized you get. That's been a pleasure to
know you as a friend and to see how many
people you've helped and in such tremendous ways. Thank you
(35:18):
so much for your time today. You're an absolute wealth
of knowledge and I'm so grateful for everything you've shared.
Speaker 3 (35:23):
Thanks for having me.
Speaker 1 (35:25):
And thank you as always for listening and sharing your
most valuable resources, your time, your energy, and your attention
with us today. We're both so grateful that you did,
and I hope that you will join me again on
the next episode of the Wellness MoMA podcast. If you're
enjoying these interviews, would you please take two minutes to
leave a rating or review on iTunes for me. Doing
(35:46):
this helps more people to find the podcast, which means
even more moms and families can benefit from the information.
I really appreciate your time and thanks as always for listening.
Hello, and welcome to the Wellness Mama podcast. I'm Katie
from Wellnessmama dot com and this episode is all about
pans and pandas, what they are and understanding how to
thrive through these childhood neuroimmune disorders. And if you're not
familiar with these, doctor Jabon gives a lot of detailed
understanding about what they are, what's connected to them, what
(00:21):
causes them, and the very nuanced way to work through
treatment to not make things worse, and how full recovery
is in fact possible with the right understanding of what's
going on in your particular body. And Doctor Jabn Moore
and his team run the Redefining Wellness Center in Kansas City, Missouri,
and also see clients virtually worldwide. He helps you will
(00:44):
in all walks of life and with all ranges of conditions,
and he specializes in lime mold, pans and pandas, autism,
parasitic infections, and environmental toxicities. As you will immediately hear
in this episode, he is abundance of knowledge and very
good at explaining these concepts in easy to understand and
key takeaway format. So let's learn from doctor Jabin Moore.
(01:06):
Doctor Jabin, welcome back. Thank you for being here again.
Speaker 3 (01:09):
Oh thanks for having me. I love it well.
Speaker 1 (01:11):
We had an incredible first episode together, this time recording
all about mold, and you explained so brilliantly a multifaceted
approach for finding out if there's been mold issues and
treating it and how it relates to so many other
things that might be going on in the body. And
I will link to that one in the show notes.
In this one, I would love to switch gears and
tackle another topic that might be really relevant to a
(01:32):
lot of parents listening, and that some people listening might
not even realize how relevant it is to them. And
that is the topic of pans and pandas, And I
think to start broad, I would guess people have heard
those terms, but in case they haven't, can you define
for is what they are and what the key differences
are between the two.
Speaker 2 (01:49):
So pans and pandas is alphabet soup, it's pediatric neural
onset of a psychiatric disorder caused by straps.
Speaker 3 (01:56):
That's pandas.
Speaker 2 (01:57):
PANS is basically the exact same thing not caused by
strap So it's any causation out there. So what it
boils down to, scientifically speaking, is your brain has inflammation
happening due to an immune response triggered by something. So
(02:21):
in Panda's case, it's triggered by strap By Pans, it
can be caused by mold toxicity, lime disease, parasites, viruses, trauma, honestly,
anything that generates an immune system reaction. So, for those
of listening, if you've ever heard of rheumatarthritis, MS, Trogrin's, lupus,
(02:41):
any of these autoimmune conditions, it's thought, and I've got
a lot of thoughts on this, but it's thought that
your body is attacking the A tissue type. So in rheumatarthritis,
your bones, in lupus, it could be your skin and
many of these other things.
Speaker 3 (02:57):
It could be your.
Speaker 2 (02:57):
Muscles or anywhere in your body, but your by what
he is attacking itself for in Western medicine, no known reason.
And I give that caveat because I oftentimes have found reason,
and there's even research on pub med to suggest many
reasons for these types of diagnosises. And in Pans Panda's case,
the pediatric piece means the P at the front.
Speaker 3 (03:19):
It's kids.
Speaker 2 (03:20):
If you take away the P, it's just called ando,
so it's an adult version of it, So it can
affect anybody.
Speaker 3 (03:27):
So, yeah, that's the letter soup there for you.
Speaker 1 (03:30):
And I have some personal friends who have had children
who are personally affected by this, and I've seen how
dramatically it can impact someone's life. What are some of
the early warning signs that parents can be aware of
and pay attention to, hopefully if this is something that's
going to become an issue, catch it early on.
Speaker 2 (03:47):
Yeah, So it's kind of an interesting one and I
want to give a little background on it. It was
discovered in twenty twelve by doctor Sweeto who was a
researcher at NIH for autism. And what happened, to make
the long story short, some kids just didn't fit all
the parameters for what true autism was, but they were
(04:09):
definitely dealing with something neurological that was affecting their outward
presentation of life. So eventually studies were done. Research was found,
and they named it PANS or PANDAS, which is the
autoimmune andencephalitis situation. And it can look very similar to
autism of all different varying severities, but it's motor ticks, movements,
(04:33):
verbal tics, it's anxiety, whether that be just general anxiety,
social anxiety, separation anxiety. It can be a very fast
onset and that's where the PANS PANDAS diagnosises are given.
As if you have an illness or some sort of
immune response where a person is sick, and then within
(04:53):
about two weeks you end up having this.
Speaker 3 (04:58):
Change.
Speaker 2 (04:58):
You have these symptoms developed pretty rapidly. Now that's the
criteria for PANS PANDAS. If that's not what you experienced
as a parent, or maybe you just didn't notice because
you're like, oh, they're recovering, they're feeling better, they're not
all the way there, and you don't report it quick enough.
It could fall into the ANDAs, which is just or
AE autoimmunion cephalitis. And AS would be the adult version,
(05:20):
but AE autom munie cephalitis category. And these symptoms can
be loss of handwriting. The kids with PANS typically get
diagnosed later, more of like the four year old to
eight year old or even up to fourteen year old
age range. So you can have loss of handwriting, you
can start doing more poorly in school. Odd adhd add
(05:43):
are all a part of this TURETS. About twenty five
percent of people tested with turets ended up with finding
inflammation in the brain, and just to throw a little
caveat at that, the Cunningham panel is a test that
initially gained ground as being part of that gold stand
and are diagnostics. So besides the symptoms I've mentioned the
(06:04):
pattern of it has to happen within two weeks for
pans and pandas, but if it's longer than that, then
it's ae. The cunning Amd panel is an antibody test.
It's five antibodies that are for the brain that if
their positive, can say yeah, we have the autoimmune scephalite
is happening. There's been a lot more advancement. There's a
test from Vibrant America called a neural Zoomer plus and
(06:27):
it's got somewhere around fifty markers and they use this
in my clinic all the time where we can run
a test to go, Okay, is there inflammation happening to
the brain due to the immune system?
Speaker 3 (06:37):
Yes or no?
Speaker 2 (06:38):
And if it's a yes, then awesome, let's go figure
out why. So that's where we run down that rabbit
hole of lyne mold.
Speaker 3 (06:44):
Parasite, bacteria, et cetera.
Speaker 2 (06:47):
Yeah, if you have these tests positive, then we know
that there's inflammation happening, and we now can go, Okay,
these symptoms that my child is experiencing, depression, irritability, food restriction,
these symptoms can actually be correlated back to inflammation in
the brain. It's not just them, and that's how they're
(07:10):
differentiating optism from pans pandas in some regard as this
autoimmune inflammatory brain situation. And the studies are showing even
eight nine years ago, this was one in two hundred
kids is what they expected. And I think the number
is just massively higher than this because most kids that
(07:37):
you've ever met that are on ADHD meds or have
difficulty in school anxiety or depression, have never had their
brain tested, So we just don't know.
Speaker 3 (07:47):
The real number.
Speaker 1 (07:49):
And that makes sense, and it makes sense how this
can be such a dramatic impact, especially on kids, and
especially you mentioned so quickly. Why is it more specific
to children or why do the infect like strap seemed
to have this severe neuropsychiatric sort of trigger and symptoms
in kids especially, And as a secondary part of that
in your experience, is it possible to overcome this in
(08:10):
our kids? It seems like this is a growing problem.
Is it possible to reverse it?
Speaker 3 (08:15):
Absolutely, it's possible to reverse it, and I'll get to that.
But why is it?
Speaker 2 (08:20):
Why is strep affecting kids more? Or is it I
don't really know that it is affecting kids more. I mean,
look at the mental health crisis that we're experiencing in
this nation of the United States and much less around
the world. Depression is the second leading cause of people
for taking disability. Anxiety seems rampant. I mean when I
(08:42):
ask I asked a client just yesterday because she's in
Michael and and she came in she was nearly bedridden,
couldn't work anymore, just debilitating symptoms. And I have people
rate zero to ten. So she rated her anxiety, depression, irritability,
brain fog, fatigue, digestive functional symptoms all around eight or
nine when she came in, and yesterday she was like
(09:04):
two or three. And it's been it's been a while.
We've been working together for a yearyear and a half.
And I asked her because I always ask people like,
what what's your frame of reference for giving me a
two or three as a symptom? So well, I just
feel like I could be better. And although that's very possible.
I go, where's your frame of reference? Go ask your friends,
And the funny thing is, seventy five percent of adults
(09:27):
over the age of forty the United States have some
sort of chronic symptom or chronic condition. So she went
out and asked her friends. She's like, oh my gosh,
everybody I know is struggling. Everyone is struggling. She like,
I almost found no one that wasn't struggling. So just
to say, are infections affecting adults?
Speaker 3 (09:49):
Absolutely?
Speaker 2 (09:51):
I think if you just sitting here listening, just go
ask to your ten best friends and sentence, Wellna's mama.
I imagine there's a lot of mamas, a lot of women.
Women are much better to communicate with than men. Men
as a confine. So all the women go ask ten
of your friends, are you struggling with something? And if
they open up to you, the answer is likely going
(10:12):
to be yes. I had one girl ask nine out
of ten of her friends at a digestive issue. This
woman said, ten out of ten of her friends are
having mental health struggles. I mean, that's incredibly high prevalence.
So I think it's happening adults and children. We have
understood it in children more because you put thirty little
(10:34):
kids in a room with an adult and they're struggling
and they're acting out, and you're you're more likely to
not be able to handle a classroom. A lot of
teachers and are now putting up those red flags if
something's not right and then telling the parents to.
Speaker 3 (10:51):
Figure it out.
Speaker 2 (10:52):
So I think it's being called on a lot more
than maybe as an adult, where you have the cognitive
capacity to really just step back and say, I still
got to go to work, still got to pay the bills,
still got to get up on my own responsibility. Whereas kids,
when a kid tells you that they are having intrusive
(11:13):
thoughts and they don't want to exist.
Speaker 3 (11:15):
Anymore, or.
Speaker 2 (11:18):
They want to harm themselves, I think that throws up
a lot more red flag than an adult who knows
that if you say that in society it might not
be taken nearly as well, and so a lot of
times it's hidden. I'm not giving the excuse that we
shouldn't tell people. We should and we should get help,
we should not have to be having intrusive thoughts, But
(11:40):
I think kids they just say things, They just act
certain ways and it's more honest. Adults are hiding a
lot more from my experience, because many of the people
I work with, you know, they put off a front
and nobody around them knows nearly what they're experiencing. But also,
kids don't have a blood brain barrier that is as developed,
(12:04):
So when we are below the age of twenty four,
our brain is still developing. Our protective mechanism around our
brain is still developing. So I think that these things
do potentially happen a little faster, and it's possible to
happen more often, but I think that's outweighed by adults
just having more insults to their immune system, more toxins,
(12:25):
and more stress. So I feel like they probably happen
at similar rates, just for different reasons. So when your
brain is more vulnerable because we don't have that protective mechanism,
we also, for men, don't have the same amount of testosterone.
Testosterone seems to improve the immune system's ability to respond,
so they say, oh, you're going to grow out of this. Potentially,
(12:46):
when puberty hits, males will have that increased antabolic nature
and may see reduction symptom. But if they don't, they're
also bigger, faster, stronger, and mental health wise not good.
And we also see suicide rates going up, we see
aggression going up. So I've worked with kids where at
(13:09):
extreme levels and this is not the normal, but the
extreme levels, they're aggressive, They're physically aggressive, they actually blackout
because they have this inflammatory response in their brain. They
do not remember what's happening. And they've grown their father
through a wall because they're seventeen to two hundred pounds.
So in extremely levels this can become very, very problematic.
(13:31):
Or I've got a seventeen year old girl who's working
with who won't leave the house. Got a twenty four
year old girl that I just just actually met in
person in California, and she's dealing with very extreme symptoms
with positive testing for brain inflammation. So when the blood
brain barriers open, infections can get there easier, toxin can
(13:52):
get in there easier, and until it's closed, the brain
is a little more vulnerable. So I'd say, as a
really long winded explanation of yeah, there's a reason why
kids might have more vulnerability. However, adults damage that same
barrier by drinking alcohol andhaling mold, putting on toxins, onto
their tissues and their skin brama overworking under sleeping, So
(14:19):
I'm not really sure how much more vulnerable kids really are.
Speaker 1 (14:22):
That makes sense, and it also speaks to you. I
think adults are capable of hiding a lot more. And
of course the inner work and the trauma side is
a whole nother piece that could be many episodes all
on its own, and was a big missing piece for
me as well. That you explained really well the immune
disregulation and inflammation side of this, and how just like
when we talked about mold, like so many things seemingly
are overlapping and connected when it comes to something as
(14:45):
nuanced as pans or pandas, I would love to shift
into talking about where's even the starting point for addressing this.
I feel like I gave a lot of hope that
you said, yes, this can be overcome, and I would
guess it's not a simple one approach, one supplement, one
answer to fix it. But I would love to delve
into the recovery side a little bit as well, and
what are some of the ways we can support kids
(15:06):
who have pans or pandas and what does that recovery.
Speaker 3 (15:09):
Road look like. The first thing is identification.
Speaker 2 (15:11):
You have to figure out what's going on, so find
a provider because this is extremely nuanced and there's a
higher risk that as you go through treatment there are
going to be some ups and downs. So whatever symptoms
you're seeing, if you don't deal with the problem, are
going to get worse on their own doing nothing. But
(15:33):
if you are dealing with the problem, when you, let's say,
go after strap, it is going to release into toxins,
It's going to create a higher immune flair, and you
may increase symptoms short term. And whether you're dealing with
an adult or a child dealing with this, you need
to mitigate a lot of those side effects because we're
(15:53):
dealing with that nervous system immune system response.
Speaker 3 (15:56):
And if you just.
Speaker 2 (15:57):
Simply say let's go, we're going to white knuckle our
way through this, we can handle it, you're actually going
to put the body into a tail spin that sometimes
it is really hard to get out because you force
it further into fight or flight, triggering bigger, longer potentially
and I don't want to use the word permanent as
in forever, but what will seem permanent because it makes
(16:19):
it last longer, so longer lasting symptom problems. So no,
do not just hurks and go through it. Do not
just white knuckle your way through this. Do not find
a provider who is just like, take take these high
doses of whatever that is, antibiotics, ibig plasma, paresis, herbal
cocktails of cleanses, detoxes, and eventually we're gonna get to
(16:42):
this side.
Speaker 3 (16:42):
It's gonna be okay. Don't do that. So figure out
what the problem is. Do the testing.
Speaker 2 (16:48):
How much information do we have in the brain, What
infections and toxins are we dealing with, How suppressed is
the mitochondria, How depleted are we with nutrients? Step one
for me oftentimes is get all that information and create
a roadmap. My roadmaps look like this. There's a starter category.
So let's figure out what nutrients we can bring in.
Are we depleted of sodium potassium? Refer back to my
(17:10):
mold talk on the way that this is important. But
if you don't have sodium potassium, detoxication movement of talks
ins out of your body is going to be hard.
Make sure your michochondria are healthy. So go to that
organic acid test. Because a lot of times with kids,
if their mitochondria is suppressed, you go into cell danger response,
which is a I don't know when this was discovered,
(17:32):
probably last twenty years. It's where your body's immune system
goes into I'm in danger, attack everything, and eventually it
can lead to apoptosis, which is cell death. So instead
of that cell allowing itself to get in facted with
viruses or turn into a cancer cell, it's supposed to
cause itself to die. While this is happening right before it,
(17:57):
it's kind of attack everything and really side of kind
storms and inflamatory responses, and your body feels miserable as
you're going through this. So we need to figure out
how not to push the body into that and how
to mitigate the body from what level that it's in.
And oftentimes with kids, we are trying to use things
(18:19):
like we're still stinging at all, Chinese skull cap, Japanese
not weed. We're bringing these calmbing immune modulating herbs in.
We can also use homopathics and for those and hire
more extreme cases, we can bring in medications like low
dose no trezone. We can use antihistamine, diet to homeopathic
(18:44):
to herb to medication as necessary, depending upon what's going
to be working for that person. So we have to
modulate the immune system after we figure out so tests
don't guess, modulate the immune system so that we can
get the body under control to stop having more reactions,
(19:05):
to create a safe environment. And that doesn't just mean,
you know, we're not getting shot at.
Speaker 3 (19:10):
That means the.
Speaker 2 (19:12):
Toxins from mold, VOCs from the house water that we drink,
which one hundred and seventy million Americans are drinking radioactive water.
So we got to fix that for those who are
dealing with that. So if you live in Miami, most
of California, Chicago, and a lot of other places, water's radioactive.
Speaker 3 (19:32):
So we got to fix that.
Speaker 2 (19:34):
Make sure that the food reating isn't putting more toxins
and harm and stress, which is yes, pesticides and organophosphates
and all that, but it's also histamine foods that are
going to generate more immune response because you're fueling more histamines,
which the histamines can't go to the brain and cause
more flares, more inflammation. So stop fueling the immune system
with more particulates that can create more irritation. So after
(19:59):
we have a safe environment, then we have to go
to the nervous system, and we have to go, do
you feel stressed out even though now we've created a
safe environment and most of the time the pattern is
set and the answer is yes. So that's where we
do somatic and lymbic and vaguel nerve exercise, which adults
is basically physical therapy for the brain. For kids, it's
harder because if they're below fourteen, getting them to do meditation,
(20:26):
breath work, I exercises, thought pattern recognition and retraining is
going to be very difficult. So sometimes it's more emotional
freedom technique. It's more of the vagus nerve exercises, which
can be some breath work, holding.
Speaker 3 (20:43):
Breath, cold shower, those sorts.
Speaker 2 (20:45):
Of things, which getting a young kid to do some
of these is a little harder. So then we can
go into neural feedback and then from there. I actually
haven't delved into this, but this past week and I
got a neural therapy session with a natural path clement
in La, which are injections of procaine around ganglia of
(21:05):
nerves in my body, and by doing this it helped
to reset, just like turning your computer on and off,
your autonomic nervous system, which is basically saying you've been
stuck in fight or flight for a long time because
you let's say you lived in a MOULDI house, or
you had a traumatic marriage, or you had a childhood
that was traumatic. Well, let's say you're now safe from
all that, but your body may not know it yet,
(21:27):
it may still be stuck in that fire flight or
freeze pattern. This is how you go in and reset
it using a very short half life twenty minute anesthesia
that calmbs the nervous system and it just gives you
that reset. And honestly, for me, I didn't have a
great reason to do this besides the say to my clients,
I've done it, I've experienced, I can tell you what
(21:48):
the procedure feels like. But after leaving, I was pretty
nervous system wise balanced. I've down through primal trust and
some other things. I've actually lost like four pounds in
like four.
Speaker 3 (21:59):
Days, So I'm like, wow, my body.
Speaker 2 (22:01):
Probably had some subconscious level of stress that was keeping
cortisol and water attention elevated. And by no means am
I mad that I've lost four or five pounds in
four days. So getting the nervous system under control, so
We've gone from tests to let's make sure that we
have the appropriate environment, the proper nervous system, immune modulation.
(22:25):
Those are four steps I've gotten so far. Anything you
want to ask questions on before, I keep going, O.
Speaker 1 (22:29):
Keep going on making notes.
Speaker 2 (22:30):
So all right, so we get into the next phase
of this, which now is we've got the tests, we've
got the environment, we've got the nervous system, we got
the immune modulation. Now we've got to go into actually
dealing with whatever we found. So in many cases, the
order that I'm going to go and this is based
off of what we found.
Speaker 3 (22:49):
For you.
Speaker 2 (22:50):
If you had everything, it would be this parasite, bacteria
colonizing mold, and then mold, toxins that are just inside
your body, environmental toxicities, heavy metals, viruses, and then fungus.
So those are the categories of infections and tox and
them to go through in that order based off of
(23:14):
your body's needs. So that's a common order, not necessarily
the order of your body will have. It does not
work for everybody, but about seventy percent of time that's
what I would go on with the ones that you have.
So if you don't have heavy metal then I'm just
gonna skip that step and then keep going down the list.
So that would be an order that we're going to
go in. But with people that have immune system issues.
(23:35):
So if you're autoimmune yourself, if you have pants pandas,
if you have AE autommunisesphalitis, then your body when I
go in to press it to detox or to deal
with infections, it's going to flare up. So that's where
that initially immune modulation piece came into play, and it's
also where we have to go at the pace your
body can let us. So for me, if I'm gonna
(23:56):
take Para three from self War, I'm going to do
thirty drafts three times a day as my standard.
Speaker 3 (24:01):
A built dose.
Speaker 2 (24:04):
You may not be able to handle that because your
body is more reactive because the immune system is more
and not fight or flights. Even with all the work
we've already done, all these things are still inside you
creating that fight or flight. So we may have to
fore use or at ten drops three times and build
up slowly. So if you have an increase of your
symptoms due to any phase of the work that we're
(24:24):
doing more than twenty percent increase, I am going to
stop us or pivot us, or bring in something to
support your body, because hermetic stresses have been studied, so
good stress, going to the gym, it's good for us,
right except for when we work out too hard and
we end up with wrapping my lisis, which means we
worked out too hard. Same thing with detoxing. If you
(24:45):
have a twenty percent increase, that's probably part for the course.
So if your symptoms previously were a five out of
ten on fatigue and now we go to six, it
takes a little energy to detox, I'm okay with that.
If you go to a nine, not okay, We've got
to do something different. So that's why recording our symptoms
once a month for me, and we actually document that
(25:05):
every month to make sure that we're moving in the
right direction. We're not going too hard. If we ever
have it flare up too far, then that's where we go, Okay,
what's going on? Is the body not handling this? Do
we need to bring more immune modulation, Do we need
to do more detox support. Do we need to just
go slower for this body? Because if we don't have
the energy to handle it, so we have to go
in there and figure out what your body's needing, and
(25:26):
we move through each phase of what I've talked about
on my roadmap until we get to the end, and
ideally in the end of this, because I told you
there's the starters, and then we get to the stressors,
which is what we've been talking about now, all the stressors,
the infections, of toxins, the traumas. Then we go to
the effects. So at the end of all the stressors
being dealt with the effects, which is going to be
(25:48):
mitochondrial dysfunction, neurotransmitter dysfunction, and every symptom you gave me
when we got started, those things should be improved. So
I'm not doing Western medicine where I'm going let's attack
this pure infection, or let's attack this diagnostic criteria. I'm saying,
(26:08):
let's optimize your body to the best of its possible outcome.
Remove anything that's stressing it. Empty out the backpack of stress, trauma, infections, toxins.
I call them all little boulders or all little books
that you're carrying around. Empty the backpack of all that,
and you'll feel a ton lighter and your symptoms.
Speaker 3 (26:29):
Are going to fade out.
Speaker 1 (26:31):
Wow, that was so comprehensive, and I love that you
even address things like the limbic, somatic and bigel nerve side.
I feel like I was a very slow learner on
the importance of those pieces and the importance of addressing trauma.
And I've talked before about how it was actually when
I dove into those pieces that all the physical stuff
I had been doing for years actually started really having
an effect. And so I feel like this is a
(26:52):
not it talked about enough piece that is seemingly connected
to all aspects of our health. And on my own journey,
I had autoimmune thigh issues. So I had hashimotos years
ago and now it is fully resolved. My most recent
test had no detectable antibody, so it's not just even
in remission, but it's not present in my body at
this moment. So I have tremendous faith in the body's
(27:12):
ability to heal. And it sounds like you have such
a beautiful, detailed approach for working with each individual body
in moving toward healing. And I'm curious kind of two things.
Are there any supportive dietarian lifestyle factors that people can
do and implement immediately if they're dealing with something like
pants or pantas and in light of my own hashimotos example,
is this something that can fully resolve or is this
(27:34):
more of like ongoing management. Do you see complete improvement
in people with this long term?
Speaker 3 (27:40):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (27:41):
So yes, it can resolve. Yes, it can't go away.
I've got like I was talking about the kid earlier.
You know, he's in college now, so tons of symptom
resolution a decade later. I've got other kids that I
get pictures from their parents of you know, they were
nine when we ended our active care and all though,
I'll still see the parent come in and tweak things
(28:03):
here and there for just optimized living symptomatically speaking, and
they're just like, we're good.
Speaker 3 (28:09):
So it can absolutely resolve.
Speaker 2 (28:11):
If you remove the reasons why the body is stressed,
it's no longer stressed.
Speaker 3 (28:15):
Right.
Speaker 2 (28:15):
If you remove a job from your life as a
ton of stress and you get a job you like,
you feel a lot better.
Speaker 3 (28:20):
The old one doesn't come back.
Speaker 2 (28:22):
As far as diets, I've got an opinion on diets.
I don't love talking diets. And part of that is
outside of eating a organic, whole food macro balance meaning
somewhere around thirty to forty percent of whatever macro you
like the best of each one.
Speaker 3 (28:39):
You should be fairly healthy.
Speaker 2 (28:42):
So I like to put together something that people really
can do for a lifetime, not something people are going
to do for a short period of time.
Speaker 3 (28:50):
When I talk about outcomes, however.
Speaker 2 (28:54):
When I'm in a sticky situation with clients and they
have immune issues, pans panned. I'm looking at do we
have oxalates which can and kids get to the brain
very easily. Oxalates are a byproduct of mold, yeast or diet.
So I do put people on an oxalate free diet
or low diet if we found oxalates in their organic
(29:14):
acid test to decrease the amount of immune irritation and
blood vessel and just simply inflammation generation that oxalts are
going to cause. And you can see kids see positive
response from that fairly quickly, so that can take a
bit of an edge off. And the other one is
a histamine diet, So decreasing histamines when you have an
autoimmune condition is going to decrease that overall immune response.
(29:38):
The problem is I hate restricting people's diets, and when
you do both of those diets combined, which I do
have a diet.
Speaker 3 (29:46):
Guide for that.
Speaker 2 (29:46):
It's pretty restrictive. So this is not something I want
to do long term. This is something that can be
done for a few months as we're getting things under control.
But I do not want people to hear me saying
go oxalate free or diet a histamine free, die long term,
because it is not a way of life that is
long term going to be beneficial. It is going to
end up creating problems of its own, just like any diet,
(30:09):
carnivor kedo, vegan. None of these are meant to be
done for a lifetime. They are not balanced. In ninety
nine percent of cases, there's always that, and there's gonna
be that influencers that's going to come and scold me
and say I've been this way forever and I'm good.
I'm gonna say great. Ninety nine percent of people should
not be on these restrictive diets long term, whether that's
(30:30):
for their mental health, their nutrient absorption health, their genetic
absorption and processing health are simply just best physical outcomes.
So yes, his toamat and ox that can show fast
change results, but you have to be doing the other
stuff too.
Speaker 1 (30:46):
I think that's such important caveat to understand. And I
also was on a very restrictive autoimmune diet for a
while and eventually realized my goal was not to feel
good and to thrive when eating this very narrow range
of foods and being in a very structured lifestyle where
we're doing all these things every day. The ultimate goal
was actually to use those things as tools and to
move toward healing so that my body was more resilient
(31:08):
and could handle whatever inputs I would put in it.
Even I still choose whatever possible, like really healthy inputs, however,
to be able to thrive and not have huge negative
symptoms if I eat something out at a restaurant and
I don't know the sourcing, or if I am exposed
to something in my environment. And that was a long
journey for me, and I feel like it's been so worthwhile.
And I love that you said, you know, this is
not a lifetime, long term thing.
Speaker 2 (31:29):
These are like.
Speaker 1 (31:29):
Tools that can be used. It seems like often we
can get stuck in the restriction and then that feels
so limiting long term. And I love how both of
our topics we got to cover. There's so much personalization
and it sounds like you really do a tremendous amount
of detailed analysis and testing to help people figure out
they're very specific pieces. For somebody who's going through any
(31:49):
of the things we've talked about, where can they find you?
I know you have a ton of informational resources and
that you work with people directly, So where can people
find you and learn from you?
Speaker 3 (31:58):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (31:59):
I want to reinforce the It's a pet peeve of
mine when people and I see it all the time.
I'm at conferences, i'm speaking, i'm teaching, I'm at dinner,
and the influencers, the speakers, the doctors live a extreme
restrictive lifestyle, so they are preaching what they're doing. So
(32:23):
I appreciate that they are connected to what they're doing
and what they're saying, and they are.
Speaker 3 (32:31):
Ingruent.
Speaker 2 (32:33):
But if you say I'm in remission, resolved and it's
over and it's gone and I've healed yet you're living
this extreme restrictive lifestyle.
Speaker 3 (32:45):
No, it's not.
Speaker 2 (32:46):
You have a band aid on it. You stop the bleeding,
which is a step of it. I've got many clients
that are that's where they are at in their journey.
They they've gotten to the point where as long as
they do a few things, they're feeling pretty good. But
there's more to go to get to freedom. And I
admit something on purpose on these podcasts on calls, so
(33:08):
that people know that, yes, I still eat organic food,
and I still eat a healthy diet, and I still
work out six days a week. I have a air
doctor in my home.
Speaker 3 (33:18):
I got four of them.
Speaker 2 (33:19):
I drink distilled or reverse osmosis water, depending upon where
I'm at. I do a lot of these things that
I think are just long term health needs. But if
I'm out at a restaurant I'm with friends, I enjoy
having cocktail. Sometimes alcohol is bad for you. It is
a toxin. It is going to flare your body up,
and it will create inflammation. So hear me out, I
(33:41):
know that sometimes I enjoy the taste of it, and
my body has no long term side effects and it
can adapt to that stress. So if you cannot step
away from your habits without having a major crash, you
might have a little bit more to go. And I
just wanted to reinforce that for people and say, increase
(34:01):
your resilience to where it can adapt to stress, whatever
that stress is that you want to do. Does it
run a marathon because that's stressful. Does it have a
glass of wine with your friends, is it eat a
burger and French fries? Whatever it is, it may not
be good for you, but your mental health is also important,
and massively restrictive lifestyles will break most people eventually and
(34:23):
do just as much damage as my cocktail. So I'm
not suggesting you should go drink. I'm just saying, do
not get stuck in a rut where you are so
restrictive that it eventually will cause likely more stress on
your nervous system. And you can find me if after
(34:44):
all of that that you still want to see me.
You can find me at doctor Jabenmore, which is dr
period Jaba and Mre. Come to our website you can
see as virtually across the world or my Instagram. We're
educating all the.
Speaker 1 (34:56):
Time and I will link to those. I think both
of our episod zos have really highlighted that healing is
absolutely possible when you understand how to support the body
in all of the ways it's requesting to be supported
through your symptoms. And I love how detailed your approaches
and how personalized you get. That's been a pleasure to
know you as a friend and to see how many
people you've helped and in such tremendous ways. Thank you
(35:18):
so much for your time today. You're an absolute wealth
of knowledge and I'm so grateful for everything you've shared.
Speaker 3 (35:23):
Thanks for having me.
Speaker 1 (35:25):
And thank you as always for listening and sharing your
most valuable resources, your time, your energy, and your attention
with us today. We're both so grateful that you did,
and I hope that you will join me again on
the next episode of the Wellness MoMA podcast. If you're
enjoying these interviews, would you please take two minutes to
leave a rating or review on iTunes for me. Doing
(35:46):
this helps more people to find the podcast, which means
even more moms and families can benefit from the information.
I really appreciate your time and thanks as always for listening.
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