What’s Really in Our Food? How to Break Free From a Broken Food System with Courtney Swan

Episode Highlights With Courtney

• Why this conversation is so important right now, and why 74% of adults are obese or overweight and over 50% of kids are
• Non-alcoholic fatty liver disease didn’t even exist decades ago, and it's now rampant
• Her own journey into health and wellness 
• The biggest offenders and contributors to why we're seeing this drastic rise
• 60% of Americans’ diets are coming from ultra-processed foods
• The real problem with food dyes and the sneaky places they're hiding
• Links between food dyes and behavioral issues, cancer, and why most countries have banned them
• Why glyphosate is such a big problem
• Misleading food labeling and the illusion of choice 
• The real deal on vegetable oils and how these are impacting our food supply 
• Look at what has changed so much in the last 50 years in our food supply- our genes don’t change that fast
• 20% of Americans' calories come from seed oils
• The role of big agriculture and government subsidies
• Understanding GMOs and how they impact us
• We're only as healthy as our soil is 
• Count chemicals, not calories- why we are overfed and under nourished 
• Two great films on this: Common Ground and Kiss the Ground 

Resources We Mention

• Her Instagram
• Realfoodology - Website
• Realfoodology - Podcast
• Common Ground Documentary
• Kiss the Ground Documentary
• My Health Forward - Regenerative Farms

Episode Transcript

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they need. Hello and welcome to the Wallness Mama Podcast.
I'm Katie from Walda'smama dot com and i am here
today with Courtney Swan from Real Foodology to talk about
what's really in our food and how to break free

(04:21):
from a broken system. And Courtney is an integrated nutritionist
and a passionate voice in this space, talking about her
generative agriculture, how we can all make small changes in
our food that make a big difference. She runs the
website and podcast Real Foodology, which I will link to
in this show notes and loves to challenge misconceptions around nutrition,
food sources, sustainability, food policy, healthy living, and more. And

(04:46):
she began after she started suffering from some debilitating gut
pain and some drastic health changes when she went to college,
and this led her to a deep passion about our food,
nutrition and especially our food supply and chi so a
lot of extremely practical tips in this episode. I know
that you will learn a lot. Let's jump in with Courtney. Courtney, welcome,

(05:07):
Thank you so much for being here today.

Speaker 2 (05:09):
Thank you so much for having me, Katie. I'm so
excited to be here.

Speaker 1 (05:12):
Oh I'm excited for this conversation. And I feel like
we're going to get to go into so many important
areas in this one simple conversation. And to start with,
I would guess a lot of people listening are already
aware of you. I'll link to your mini profiles in
the show notes so people can follow you because you
are always putting out such great content, But I feel
like for a background for this conversation, I know that
you've been a leading voice in trying to create positive

(05:34):
nutrition and health changes in our country, and I would
love to kind of delve into the reasons this matters
right now more than ever. I know a lot of
moms are right there with you. But why is this
so critically important right now?

Speaker 2 (05:44):
Yeah? Thank you so much. I mean, this is a
really exciting time right now. I have been reflecting a
lot recently on how long I've been in this fight.
And I started Real Foodology as a blog fourteen years ago,
which is really wild to think. So this has been
a really long time coming and something that we have
been home being and praying that our government institutions would
listen to and pay attention to. And you asked why

(06:06):
this is so critical important right now? Well, seventy four
percent of our American adults are obese or overweight, and
almost fifty percent of our children are obese or overweight.
I mean, we're seeing things like non alcoholic fatty liver disease,
which is a disease that largely did not exist fifty
years ago, is rising in children right now, diabetes is
through the roof, cardiovascular diseases through the roof. Nine out

(06:27):
of ten of the leading causes of death in America
right now can be attributed to diet and lifestyle. So
we are at this critical point right now where if
we do not address what's going on with our food
system right now, we are going to be in really
I mean, we're there. We're already in the critical point
right now, and so we need to do everything we
can to try to turn the ship around and get
Americans healthier again well.

Speaker 1 (06:48):
And I know, for me, part of my origin with
wellness Mama was reading that for the first time in
two centuries, our kids would have a shorter life expectancy
than we would. And I was holding my newborn son
at that moment, and it just struck me so hard
that they would face what we're now seeing, all these
rising chronic diseases that are avoidable, And like you said,
the majority over ninety percent now of Americans are metabolically
not healthy or have at least one marker of metabolic dysfunction.

(07:11):
And from knowing you a little bit, I know that
you also kind of had a personal origin story when
it comes to this work. And if you're willing, I'd
love for you to share a little bit of what
made this such a passion for you.

Speaker 2 (07:21):
Yeah. So, I think a lot of people that come
into this space come because they're sick or they're dealing
with something and they get disillusioned by the our medical system.
I think that's like a common story for me. Mine
was actually the exact opposite. I grew up with a
mother who was making everything from scratch, and I was
very blessed and lucky to live a pretty healthy life

(07:41):
growing up because my mom really tried her best to
feed me really healthy food and try to keep me
off medication and antibiotics and all that whenever she could.
So when I went to college, I had a complete
one eighty where I was, you know, having a fourth
meal taco bell and eating fast food and eating junk
that I had never really eaten as a kid. And
I quickly was able to figure out like how the

(08:04):
connection was between what I was putting in my body
when I was eating and how it was making me
really sick. I mean, I gained like thirty pounds, and
you know, less than a year, I had fatigue. I
couldn't study in school. You know I couldn't pay attention
in school. I was really struggling with that my sister
acne that I'd never seen before. And so I was
able to look back to where how I was feeling
with my parents and when I lived at home versus

(08:26):
then when I went to school, and I was able
to make that connection. And I got really lucky that
I found a couple of books early on that really
just opened my eyes to the fact that what I
was eating and putting in my body was having a
direct connection and a direct effect on what I was feeling.

Speaker 1 (08:38):
That makes sense and probably a huge benefit that you
had such a solid foundation from childhood. I know, like
many people, me included, got to unpattern and heal a
lot of stuff that I've picked up in childhood. And
I know that we're seeing this across the board, and alarmingly,
especially in children. What do you see as some of
kind of the biggest offenders or the biggest contributing factors
to why all of these things are rising so rapidly.

Speaker 2 (09:00):
Well, I would say, first and foremost, it's really simple, Katie.
We're not eating real food anymore, is the problem. You know,
sixty percent of American's calories are coming from ultraprocessed foods.
Ultra processed foods are foods that have really long ingredient labels,
and these foods are not really resembling food anymore. If
you look and you read the ingredients in the back
of many of them have fillers, additives, preservatives, so many

(09:22):
non food substances that have ended up in our food.
You know, one of the really big things that just
happened with the FDA, and we I'm sure that we'll
probably dive into that more. But is the food dies.
I mean, you look in the back of packages like pickles,
for example, have food dies in there, have artificial petroleum
based food dies in there. And so I think a
lot of people think with the food dies, oh, it's
just junk and candy and you know, things that we

(09:44):
shouldn't be eating anyways. But it's also in things like relish,
it's in yogurt. So largely what has happened is that
we're not eating real food anymore. And then you add
on top of that the fact that there's hype, justscorn
serb in there, which is linked to the obesity epidemic.
And we're also eating a ton of shit and so
there's a lot of different things happening right now, but
I would say the main issues that we're just not
eating real food anymore.

Speaker 1 (10:06):
Yeah, I'm right there with you, and you're right. The
food die conversation, I feel like has really risen to
the forefront right now, and I know some moms have
had concerns about this for a really long time, and
it seems like it's finally entered the more mainstream conversation.
I would guess a lot of people listening are already
aware of the problems with food dies. But for anyone
who isn't, can you just briefly walk us through why
these can be so problematic?

Speaker 2 (10:25):
Yeah? So they are petroleum based, so they're a byproduct
of the oil industry, and there are concerning links to
behavioral issues and children, and also there's very concerning links
to cancer with these artificial food dyes. Most other countries
across the world have already recognized these food dies are
not good for us. In fact, if there is American

(10:47):
candy or American foods that have these food dies, like
for example, fruit loops, if they end up in the
UK or in Sweden, they come with a warning label
on there that says may cause behavioral issues and children.
So a lot of other countries have already recognized that
these food dyes are not good for us, and yet
in America, for some reason, we're so far behind the
curve on that. And recently on Tuesday, the FDA just

(11:07):
announced that they are going to be phasing all these
food dies out of the American food system, which is
a huge deal.

Speaker 1 (11:13):
Yeah, that's really drastic, and I didn't think i'd ever
see that day, honestly. And I know a lot of
moms are not waiting for the government to make these changes,
to make them in our homes, which I love. I
think moms are really driving the forefront of a lot
of these changes we're.

Speaker 2 (11:25):
Seeing, and I love that. I know.

Speaker 1 (11:27):
Another big one that you've talked about in depth is
glyphosate and how this is also different in the US
than many places in the world. And again I would
guess a lot of people listening have some awareness about this,
But what are some of the big problems when it
comes to glyphosate and all the compounds we use in
farming here that are not used throughout the world.

Speaker 2 (11:43):
Yes, And I wanted to just make one point really
quickly about the food dies and just in general about
mothers waiting for the government. So I'm the same way
I've encouraged my audience for the last fourteen years, do
not wait for the government to do anything. And this
is on us. It's our responsibility to take care of
our health. I will say that's something that I don't
think many people think about. I get many comments when
people say, oh, just avoid it, you know, don't eat these.

(12:04):
The problem is that these food dyes are in our
school lunches across the nation. They're also in nursing homes,
and they're also in hospitals. So it's easy for somebody
to say just avoid it. But then people that are
sending their children to schools that are feeding these food dyes,
they have no control over that. So I just wanted
to say that it is a really big win, especially
for the lower socioeconomic families that do not have an
option than to feed their children whatever is being fed

(12:26):
at schools, and then same with people that are nursing
homes and hospitals. And this was something I had never
really thought about until I started diving into it. So
I just think it's important for people to think about
that and know that as far as glycasate, glcazaate is
something I'm incredibly concerned about. I'm really hoping that this
is something that we will tackle in the next couple
of years. I know it's something that Bobby RFK Junior
is incredibly passionate about. In fact, I found out about

(12:47):
Bobby years ago because he was actually litigating against Monsanto,
which is the company that created glycasate. So Glaca state
is also known as round up. Many people have probably
seen it in their garage. You'd probably have it in
their garage and maybe spray it in their backyard, and
I would urge you to throw that away if you
have it in your home. It is an herbicide that
is widely used and sprayed to kill off pests and

(13:08):
well not pests because it's not on pesticide, but to
kill off herbs and herbicides, so a lot of weeds,
and we're spraying it very heavily in our food system
right now. Unfortunately. In fact, it's so ubiquitous that there
was a recent study done and they found up to
ninety something percent I think it was like ninety one
percent of Americans have glycasate in their blood and their urine.
We're finding it in placenta, We're finding it in breast milk.

(13:31):
It's everywhere because we are spraying it on our wheat
after it has been harvested, because it dries off the
wheat and then it ends up in our grains that
line our supermarket shelves. There's a recent study done by
the Environmental Working Group released it. I don't remember who
did the actual study. They found eighty to ninety percent
of popular grain products on grocery store shelves contained glyphosate.

(13:53):
So I think things like cheerios, Quaker oats. So this
is why I'm such a champion for buying an eating
organic food because by law, organic food is not legally
allowed to be sprayed by glypasate. And the reason why
glypa state is so incredibly concerning right now is because
there are very concerning links to cancer. The IARC, which

(14:14):
is the International Agency for Research on Cancer through the
World Health Organization, has recognized g life to say, as
a human carcinogen. So it's something that we are incredibly
concerned and concerned about. And it's also just it's invisible. Invisible.
What I mean by that is meaning that you're not
going to see it on food labels even though it's
ending up in our food system, and there's a lot
of things that we can do. I would say, eat

(14:35):
organic and also get to know your farmers and find
out if they're spraying glya sate if you're concerned about
that and want to reduce your exposure.

Speaker 1 (14:41):
And I know this has been talked about, is potentially
one of the reasons people can, for instance, who don't
handle gluten in the US can go to Europe and
be perfectly fine with it because they don't use glyphasate there.
And I first became aware of this actually in high
school on a school trip. I was in a farming
area and they were showing us all these crops and like, look,
how awesome it is that we can keep all these
plants away and these invasive plants by. And it really

(15:03):
struck me how it's not like they're just like lightly
spraying this. It's like they are dousing the crops in it,
like from their planes and helicopters or from these massive arms.
I mean, it was completely drenched in this. And like
you said, this is now so pervasive in our food supply,
And you touched on something else that I think is
really important, which is kind of the idea of misleading
food labels, because I know many people are very aware

(15:24):
and trying to navigate this the best they can, and
it seems like there's also a lot of kind of
shady things that happen when it comes to food labeling.
So even if we're trying to be aware and read packaging,
sometimes there's ways things are hidden or mislabeled or like
kind of greenwashed to make sure that we don't actually
know what's in them. Can you talk about that and
like how we can have more awareness in navigating it.

Speaker 2 (15:45):
Yeah, greenwashing is something you brought up, and it's really
important for people to understand. So the way that I
explained greenwashing is never take the front of the package
as truth about what is in that product, because the
front of the package is a billboard for the company.
They are trying to sell you a product, and chances

(16:06):
are the more labeling there is on the front, low fat,
sugar free, you know, all the different labels they slap
on there, the more that are on there, chances are
the worst that the product is for you. Now that's
not always the case, but they're often throwing that on there.
Because they want to throw you off, and they want
to give the illusion that something is healthy and safe
and good for you. Oftentimes you'll see, you know, rolling

(16:28):
green pastures with chickens on the front, and then you
read the back and you see there's kennelo oil and
there's things like BHT and so this is why I
always urge people to just read the ingredients on the back.
And most of the time, when you are looking at
an ingredient label, if it is really really long and
it takes you a while to get through all the ingredients,
chances are that that's probably something that you're going to

(16:48):
want to put back on the shelf. Things that you're
looking for in that label are real food ingredients that
you recognize. I tell people often that if you're going
to buy things in packages, read those ingredients and if
you could technically, like let's say that you picked up
a bag of crackers and you were like, Okay, could
I make these at home if I want it to.
I'm not saying you have to, but would you be
able to buy all those ingredients that are on that

(17:09):
label in the grocery store while you're there. So I
always use simple mills as an example, because they always
you know, these rosemary is a preservative, and so you
would know where to buy rosemary in the grocery store.
You would know where to buy almond flour. These are
all things that are real food ingredients. So that's how
I tell people to navigate it. And it is it's
really hard and tricky right now to navigate this because
there's a lot of tricks that the food system implores

(17:32):
on these products because they want to trick us and
they want us to buy these products. And I would
just say, look for real food ingredients. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (17:40):
I think that's a great tip, and like that alone
can make such a massive shift if we all just
did that. In another area that you've brought up, I
would love to go deeper on anytime I get a
chance to stuff on the soapbox. Is the topic of
vegetable oils. Because this is a relatively new introduction to
the human diet. There's some research and rat studies showing
that vegetable oils are maybe a big contributor to the
non alcoholic fatty liver disease that you mentioned. In fact,

(18:02):
even high carbohydrate or even refined carbohydrate diets without vegetable
oils rats did not get anywhere nearly as much fatty
liver disease, and these are so pervasive. I would say
the majority of foods, certainly, if not upwards of eighty
percent foods and grocery stores have vegetable oils. So what's
your take on processed seed oils and the best way
to avoid them or if they're maybe they're not as

(18:24):
harmful as we think.

Speaker 2 (18:25):
Okay, that's so fascinating, Katie. I actually haven't heard that
yet about the connection with non alcoholic fatty liver disease.
It makes sense, though, you know, a lot of this
stuff is we have to zoom out and we have
to look at what is changed in the last fifty
years in our food system. Our genes don't change that fast.
If you look at photos from people in the early
nineteen hundreds, people look very different than they look today.

(18:46):
And this is because we have changed our environment around
us and we have changed what we're eating. And the
thing with seed oils, so seed oils, it's a whole
it's a trendy thing to talk about right now. Everybody's
you know, and there's also this kind of war in
the wellness world right now about whether or not these
are good for you. Here's the truth about seed oils.
I think the biggest issue is that we are eating

(19:08):
them so much again same as similar as the ultra
processed foods. I believe it's around It's like twenty percent
of Americans' calories are now coming from these vegetable oils.
And if you look, I'll see if I can find
this chart and send it to you afterwards. But I
was really I was blown away by this. I saw
this chart recently, and it showed that before when we
were you know, thinner, and we weren't dealing with, you know,

(19:29):
all this chronic disease and the obesity epidemic, we were
getting the majority of our fats from animal fats, so
things like beef, tallow or all of oil, which is
obviously not an animal fat. But we were eating real
food fats. And then something switched, and now all of
a sudden, the you know, we're not really consuming tallow anymore,
we're not really consuming all of oil in the same
amounts that we are consuming things like canola oil. And

(19:52):
it's because we replaced those fats with canola oil in
industrial seed oil. And one of the reasons that I
think that it's such a big shoe is one, because
we're eating so much of it. Two, it off sets
the ratio of omega threees and omega six is in
our body. So we all know this is very basic nutrition.
Omega threes to omega sixes need to be in a
ratio in our body, and it should be about one

(20:14):
to four Americans. Right now, we're eating one to fifteen
and up to one to twenty in the ratio. So
what's happening is we're off setting that ratio of omega
three is to mega sixes in our bodies. And what
happens when we're doing that is that it's increasing inflammation
in the body. So we're eating too much of them
and we're throwing off this ratio and we need to
get back to eating more things like tallow and olive oil.

Speaker 1 (20:35):
Yeah, that's such a good point that in a sense,
especially with this, the dose makes the poison, and like
the small exposure and a meal at a restaurant is
likely not going to cause a problem, but that twenty
percent of our calories coming from this is a big problem,
especially when we know these are foods they feed two
livestock to fatten them up. And we're consuming them in
huge amounts. And when you talk about the omega three
and omega six ratio, I've worked with a company called

(20:57):
function Health, and this actually seems to be one of
the big problems that flags on most people's lab results
is that their omega threes are low and that ratio
is off. And so I think this is like one
easy area to focus on that can make a big
impact and that we talked about. Of course, we can
all make changes within our own homes, and I think
that's really important. And to your point, you're doing this
work on a broader scale and trying to create change

(21:19):
at the government level, which I think is also important.
And I would guess a lot of people listening don't
understand kind of the role of big agriculture, the kind
of relationships that exist below the surface there, and how
government subsidies work that are kind of contributing to these
problems we're talking about. So if anybody not familiar, can
you kind of walk us through why the government side
of this is actually a big problem too.

Speaker 2 (21:39):
Yeah, I think you know. So let's just think really
basic agriculture. This is literally what feeds us as a population, right,
what we're growing, we're feeding is what's feeding us is
very very basic. But the problem with big agriculture and
our government is that a long time ago, we created
these subsidies where we pay our farmers. There is a

(22:00):
certain amount of money from taxpayer dollars to grow specific foods.
So what we're paying for right now in subsidies are
corn wheat and soy. And what happens as a result
when we incentivize people to grow more of that is
we have an over surplus of it. It's also why
we give why we feed corn wheat and soy to
our livestock because we have an overproduction of it. So

(22:20):
and we also found out that we could feed those
grains to our livestock to fatten them up and send
them to slaughter much quicker. And so it's, you know,
a win win for these companies because they're able to
send them to slaughter much quicker. But we also know
that it fattens them up. And corn wheat and soy
are now in all of our foods because of this.
Pick up any ulture process packaged food and you can

(22:42):
read a label it says may contain corn wheat and
soy or just and may sometimes say just you know,
make contain wheat, make contain corn. It's in all of
our foods because we are paying, we're incentivizing farmers to
grow more of it. And there's an added layer to
this that is incredibly concerning to me, which is the
GMO life estate connection. So over ninety percent of our

(23:03):
corn is genetically modified and over ninety percent of our
soi is genetically modified. And what that means is that
these corn and soy seeds were genetically modified to be
able to withstand glyphosate. So that allows our farmers to
just spray glypo state similar to what you said earlier,
you just saw this at a farm, or they just
spray these fields all over with glyphosate and it allows

(23:24):
the corn the soi to still grow and everything else
around it gets killed or dies, you know.

Speaker 1 (23:31):
Yeah, and there's obviously gut implications there as well. I
know you've done videos on this before, but especially when
we're consuming this in large amounts in most of our
food supply, it seems like that has a really dramatic
impact on the variety of our gut bacteria. And of
course we know the gut is the second brain and
responsible for a lot of aspects of health. But can
you speak to that a little bit of like how

(23:51):
we're seeing even gut changes kind of in a population
wide scale.

Speaker 2 (23:56):
Yeah, and you know, okay, so this is a full
circle moment here. So glyph is sa we know, also
acts like an antibiotic. It's killing off not only all
the good bacteria in our soil, but it also is
killing off all the good bacteria in our guts. And
people are wondering why everybody's having, you know, gut issues.
I actually I testify to the scentate last fall in
this nutrition round table, and one of the things that

(24:17):
I brought up was there is a very concerning theory
out there that there's a type of corn called BT corn.
And essentially, so this comes back to the agriculture. So
BT corn is corn that has something called BT toxin
in there. Now that BT toxin makes the insects stomachs
explode that eat it. And this is how it acts

(24:38):
like a pesticide, because you know, if the insects try
to eat at the insects die, and so then that's
how we get rid of our insects. But then people
are eating this BT corn and now everybody's getting something
called leaky gut syndrome. Well, what is leaky gut syndrome?
It's little holes in our intestine. So these pesticides and
these herbicides that we're eating, in my opinion, are one
of the larger issues that we're dealing with right now.

(24:59):
And it's mind blowing to me that we know the
implications of these on like, let's say, insects and other
living beings for example, but we somehow didn't think that
they would affect human health for some reason. And these
are toxic chemicals that were spraying on our food and
that we're also allowing in these seeds. And then we
look at the rising incidents of gut issues. I mean,
you know, look around, and I mean I personally know

(25:21):
so many people in my life, the struggle with egzma, psoriasis, asthma,
all of these things, especially the skin issues are directly
linked and connected to our gut issues.

Speaker 1 (25:31):
Yeah, and especially in kids. I feel like we see
that so often, and I've heard heard from many moms
who have had that, and then with dietary changes and
like being aware of these factors, they've been able to
reverse a lot of those issues and really clean things
up because of how impactful the gut is. And we've
touched on a lot of different points related to kind
of why we're seeing some of these changes. I'd love
to go a little deeper on like the historical context

(25:52):
and maybe bring in like some diet culture myths and
talk about the convenience food era, because, like you said,
you know, sixty years ago we were seeing these problems,
like our great grandparents probably never counted calories. They weren't
like running checklist or having to take a million supplements
to stay moderately healthy. So, from a historical perspective, like
why do you think we're seeing so many of these

(26:13):
shifts so quickly? And what are the pieces within our
control to start shifting things?

Speaker 2 (26:18):
You know, Katie, it's so interesting how this comes full
circle and how it's all connected. This is very holistic.
So the glyphis state that I had mentioned earlier, glyphasate
is killing off the good and bad bacteria in our soil,
and we are only as healthy as our soil is.
So let me explain what I mean by that when
we're killing off that whole ecosystem that exists in the soil,
the bugs and the worms and everything that exists in

(26:39):
that little ecosystem that gives the plants the nourishment and
food that it needs. Our plants are now void of
amazing vitamin's, minerals and nutrients that we need in order
to be healthy. And it's why so many of us
are having the supplement now because you can look at
all the studies that show that our vegetables are our

(27:00):
fruits and vegetables are actually declining in vitamin and mineral content,
and everybody's scratching their head, going why, Well, it's very
very obvious to many of us that are studying this.
It's because we're killing off all of the good nutrients
in the soil and as a result, our plants are
not going to have as much vitamins and minerals and nutrients.
And something really really fascinating that I love about regenerative agriculture.
What we've figured out is that if we don't put

(27:22):
all these inputs in the soil, like the gl like
to say that pesticides, the herbicides that are killing off
all that good bacteria in the soil and killing off
that ecosystem, there's this really beautiful process that happens in
nature where it's so amazing how God designed this so perfectly.
Carbon is actually pulled out of the atmosphere and brought
back down into the soil. Carbon is actually food for
the soil. But when we intervene and we destroy the soil,

(27:45):
it gets in the way of this beautiful process called
carbon sequestration, which actually brings the carbon back from the
atmosphere into soil to feed the plants. Now, as a result,
we're all having to take vitamins because all of our
food is devoid of vitamins, minerals, and nutrients. So that is,
I think, a really big one. And you'd asked me
something else that I'm forgetting now.

Speaker 1 (28:04):
About the like driant culture and convenience food era and
how that's contributed.

Speaker 2 (28:09):
Okay, So this is thing that I'm so incredibly passionate
about because I see there's this pushback right now against
healthy eating, right I see, you know, very well meaning
registered dietitians. I don't know why, but I'm seeing it
from a lot of them. They say that if we
eat this way, that if you eat organic and you're
avoiding the chemicals and avoiding the pesticides, that you will
develop an eating disorder. This is absolutely crazy to me

(28:35):
because we look at how addictive these ultra processed foods are.
I mean there are literally food scientists that are hired
by companies like think about Pringles. It's literally in their name.
Once you pop, you can't stop. These food scientists are
creating these chemicals and these foods to make them so
incredibly addictive that once you pop, you can't stop eating them.

(28:57):
I think everybody listening knows that feeling of opening about
of gurtas and feeling like you literally cannot stop eating them,
and it doesn't even matter how full you are, Like
I could polish polish off a whole bag of Doritos
and then still be hungry afterwards, because these are these
what we call empty calories that do not fill you
up and they don't nourish you. And so to me,
I think it's absolutely crazy to say that it's you know,

(29:17):
diet culture and dangerous to be avoiding these these food
chemicals because and there's all this conversation of willpower, right, Oh,
it's just willpower. These are chemicals that are hijacking your brain.
They're literally overriding your brain. This is not an issue
of willpowers. I don't think anybody has ever had a
hard time binge eating steak or binge eating salmon. Like

(29:40):
there's these satiety hormones that come up right the grill
in and the leptin that tell you when you're full,
when you're full, tell you when you're hungry, And we're
overriding those very hormones and our own palettes. We're hijacking
them with these chemicals, these food like products. And it's
why so many people are having a hard time putting
these ultra process foods down because they were quite literally
designed that way. There were designs so that these food

(30:01):
companies could make more money.

Speaker 1 (30:04):
Yeah, and I feel like a lot of people don't
understand that and how much goes into that on the
back end that we're not even aware of. And it
touches on something else that I've heard you talk about
in videos and I would love to dispel because we
hear a lot about calories and calories out and there's
a lot of nutrition experts and trainers that I see
talk about that all the time. And my understanding I've
come over the last few years to understand is it's

(30:25):
really I call it my protein and micro nutrient theory
of health, in that it's not about just the calories
at all. But if our body isn't getting the nutrient
diversity it needs, it will continue to crave food for survival.
It's on our side. It's trying to get us to
eat enough nutrients. So I feel very strongly that it's
not as simple as calories in, calories out, not that
calories don't matter, but that we're only kind of acknowledging

(30:47):
half of the story. But I would love your perspective
on this, because I've heard you in videos and I
feel like you explain it so well.

Speaker 2 (30:53):
Oh thank you. You know, it's funny that you brought
this up. I have this sticker sitting on my desk
and it literally says count Kim goals, not calories. So
you know, I think every woman can, at some point
in their life relate to this. And I remember what
it was like in my early twenties. I had gained
weight in college. I was eating slim fast bars and
lean cuisines, and you know, avidly counting my calories. And

(31:16):
I was in a prison. You're literally in a prison
when you sit there and you try to count your
calories day in and day out. And I was also
starving every day and then as a result, you know,
at the end of the day, I think everybody knows
what it feels like to have not eaten enough calories,
And honestly, I don't even think it was calories, to
not have eaten enough nutritious foods. And then I find myself,
just like you know, binging everything in my pantry, and

(31:37):
I was able to stop all of that, like it
never became an issue for me because I quickly realized, oh,
I'm just not eating food and my body is not
getting the nutrients that it needs. It's not this is
not a thing about calories, and this is where we've
been lied to. And again, like you said, I am
not saying that calories don't count. They absolutely play a
role at the end of the day. If you overeat

(31:57):
more than your body needs and is able to utilize
throughout the day, that is very basic. Like, yes, of
course you are going to gain weight and you're going
to struggle and deal with the consequences of that. However,
part of the reason that people are overeating is because
they're eating. We're overfed and we're undernourished. Is essentially what's
happening right now. We're eating all of these dead food

(32:18):
like products that are just chemicals and contain no nutrients whatsoever.
And then our cells, our cells are literally begging for
nutrients because think about it, our body is need nutrients
and vitamins and minerals and protein and fats in order
to run throughout the day, you know, in order to
just keep this whole our body moving and working properly.

(32:41):
And so if we're not giving it the very basic
needs that it needs in order to run, then we're gonna,
of course we're going to be starving.

Speaker 1 (32:50):
Yeah, that makes so much sense to me, And learning
that shift internally was so drastic in the way I
even approached health, because, like you explained, we cannot out
well power our survival mechanisms, like our bodies doing that
because it's on our side, and if we can befriend
it and work with our survival mechanisms and not against it,
it's much more pleasant and much more effective. And for me,
I kind of think of the micronutrient density first now,

(33:13):
and I try to look at and optimize how do
I choose the most nutrient dense foods at every given meal,
not how do I restrict calories? And even from a mindset,
perspective that feels so much more empowering. And you touched
on regenerative agriculture a lot, and I love that we're
also talking about this more in the mainstream conversation. And
I've heard you speak before about how even though their

(33:33):
positioned to be organic and regenerative options are not a luxury,
and I would love for you to kind of bring
that reframe to this conversation because I feel like that's
an important step, especially for the majority of moms listening,
who are the food decision makers in the household.

Speaker 2 (33:47):
Yes. Absolutely, And I do want to say one more
thing about what you just said, is you know, I
had mentioned earlier that counting calories and being so concerned
about just the calories and not actually looking at the
quality of the food. I mean, I was in a
prison and I think most people can relate to that.
And now I have never had a more healthy relationship

(34:08):
with food. And this is why this whole, you know,
notion of diet culture makes me really upset. I put
quotes diet culture because I hate that conversation so much
because it's not it's not actually helping people. In my opinion,
if you can encourage people to really focus on the
nutrient density of their foods and they're actually able to
be full and satisfied throughout the day, then they're going

(34:28):
to have a much healthier relationship. They're not going to
be chasing all these packaged foods and chasing this hunger
all day that they feel like they have no control over.
Because when you're eating satiety inducing foods things like steak
and avocado and you know, all these nutrient dense foods
that are going to actually keep you full and satisfied
throughout the day, you're going to find and realize that
you're no longer in this prison of just chasing hunger

(34:49):
all day and trying to, you know, keep in a
certain amount of calories. It's like, I've never had a
healthy relationship food ever in my entire life, and it
just truly is so freeing when you're able to be
in that position. Okay, so regenerative farming, this is something
that I'm very very passionate about it as well. I
love it. Everything you've been bringing up. I'm like, yes,
I'd love to talk about this stuff. So there's a
there's actually two really amazing films. One just came out

(35:12):
this week on Amazon Prime called common Ground, and then
the makers of common Ground also created another film that
I believe is still on Netflix and it's called Kiss
the Ground. Now. They are the reason that I'm so
passionate about regenerative farming. I watched these films years ago
and it really sparked something in me because, you know,
for a long time, waking up and realizing that everything

(35:34):
we're doing about our food is backwards and corrupt, and
there's so much corruption and there's so much that we're
doing wrong. And when I discovered regenerative farming, it gave
me so much hope. And I think this is why
it makes me so happy, is because there is so
much hope. And the thing is, we have a solution
to all of this. Everything we've been talking about. What
did I say earlier, It's all connected and it's all holistic,
and it all starts with the way that we're growing

(35:56):
our food. That is number one. Regenerative farming. What it
is is it it's essentially working with nature instead of
against nature. What we're doing right now in conventional farming
is working against nature. We're working against God right now,
and we are spraying everything really heavily with pesticides, we're
tilling the soil, meaning that we have these machines that
go through the soil and they rip up the top soil.

(36:18):
And I don't have a ton of time to go
into all the details of that, so I would encourage
you to watch kiss the ground to understand why that's
so important. But essentially, what we've learned is there's so
much minerals and nutrients and this ecosystem that I talked
about earlier in that top soil that we need for
our plants not only to survive, but also to get
the nutrients that they need. And what they've found is
that when we nurture the land and we work with nature,

(36:40):
what happens is that we create this beautiful ecosystem where
everything is able to thrive. The food has more vitamins
and minerals and nutrients, it's pulling carbon out of the atmosphere,
and so it's this whole process that happens. And what
happens is you look at the soil in conventional farming,
which is we're tilling, we're spraying everything with pesticide. It

(37:00):
looks dead, honestly, it starts to become like sand, and
then you know if you have any sort of you know,
let's say like a treading of an example, like a
tornado that comes through and just the soil's just gone
because it's basically become desertified, and so there's no resilience
there either, Versus when you have regenerative land, the soil
is rich and deep and dark and it goes really

(37:21):
deep into the ground, and so it's able to be
more resilient when you do have, you know, natural disasters
that happen, like let's say for example. So it also
creates a more resilient food system. And so what happens
as a result of all this is that we also
get more nutrient dense food, and we get just a
better ecosystem and we're actually taking care of the land.
So I'm incredibly passionate about regenerative farming, and it also

(37:44):
gives me a lot of hope because there's a lot
of farmers right now Joelsalatin gay Brown. There's so many
of them in the field right now, Will Harris that
are doing it on large scale, and they're showing us
that it is possible. Because there's this argument, oh well,
it's not possible. Conventional farming will never quote unquote feed
the world. It's actually the exact opposite, because what's happening
is we're creating a more sustainable farming system that can

(38:04):
actually withstand everything else that we're dealing with versus a
very I don't think people understand how fragile our food
system is right now.

Speaker 1 (38:14):
Such a good point, and I will link to those
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(42:36):
able to see really noticeable results even from small shifts.
It doesn't have to be that you change everything overnight.
So I'd love to get a chance to kind of
touch on some of those points that you talk about
so well, and of course I'll link to some of
your videos as well, but I'd love to start with
kind of an eighty twenty of top level, like what
are some of the ways to start? What are the
easiest ways to reduce our exposure to these harmful things

(42:58):
and to increase our micronutriy consumption and the density of
nutrients in our food.

Speaker 2 (43:03):
Yeah, I would say first and foremost, I mean, turn
it into a game, right, See how much real food
you can eat in a day. Try not to buy
as many things in packages. Now. Look, I'm a realist,
and I believe that we can also buy things in
packages because I know we're busy. I mean I'm busy,
like I can't buy everything just you know, whole real
food then just cook everything from scratch, right, So thank

(43:24):
god we have companies that are creating healthier for you
food packaged foods that we can buy and that can
be convenient. But you know, unfortunately we I think there
also needs to be a little bit of a reframe
here and that we need to recognize it convenience also
is killing us, and we are not spending the time
that we used to in the kitchen, and we're not
recognizing and realizing that feeding ourselves is one of the

(43:46):
most basic basic needs and it's one of the most
important needs that we have. So it's it is confusing
and wild to me, but I also get it because
we're busy, but that we're not prioritizing this. You know,
it's kind of a last minute thing, like I'll just
go through the through and then I'll just eat it
on the way, you know, to something else, instead of
recognizing and realizing that we should be prioritizing this because

(44:07):
it's our health. And I completely forgot the question because
I went on off on such a tangent. Oh how
can I, oh, where should people start? Yeah, Okay, I'm sorry.
Sometimes I go off on these tangents and then I'm like, oh,
what was the question again. So I think a really
easy way to start is go look in your pantry,
start reading ingredient labels. I think if you can start
committing to reading ingredient labels, and I will tell you,

(44:29):
if you're new to this and you're just starting out,
I would imagine that your your audience is pretty well
versed in this. But for the people that are new
to this, no one recognized that maybe the first couple
of trips to the grocery store will be longer. And
that's okay. Honestly, when I was first learning and starting out,
I would spend like hours in the groceryore reading ingredient labels,
and I actually loved it. I had a lot of
fun with it. But just know that it will not

(44:49):
always be that way. You learn the foods that you
love and the foods that are you know, cleaner and
healthier for you, and it won't take you so long,
but in the beginning, it may take longer. And I
would audit your pantry. I would go and I would
look at the ingredient labels of every single thing in there.
Don't just take their word for it on the front.
It's a billboard. They're trying to sell you the product.
You want to look at the ingredients. And I said

(45:11):
this earlier, but I will mention it again. If you
can read all of those ingredients and you recognize them
as real food, those that would be considered a packaged
food that you could eat and is considered to be
safe and clean. If it has things like BHT for
an example, I would toss that out or not buy
it because that is a preservative. Preservative that is linked
to colon cancer. Also too, If you go to my
website realfoodology dot com and you plug in your email,

(45:33):
I email you my grocery guide. It's really simple. You
can save it on your phone and then you can
go in the grocery store. And you know, if you're
thinking back, like, what was that that Courtny said about
this one thing, pretty much everything that I use to
navigate the grocery stores all on there on a sheet
that you can easily take with you to the grocery store.
In reference, but I would say the Yeah, the number
one is just start out, start reading real food ingredients

(45:55):
and then start trying to cook more at home. If
you can if you don't yet, you know, I think
a lot of people spend way too much money postmating
and ordering food and eating out, and unfortunately the reality
is that we're spending a lot of money eating out
for conventional food that's not even organic. It's not even spray,
it's not even grass fed, it's not even the high quality.
And if you were eating at home and buying grass

(46:18):
fed meats, organic food, it would actually be cheaper for
you to make all those meals at home with higher,
more quality ingredients than it would be for you to
be eating out at remeal. It is significantly cheaper when
you think about it. From that regard, also too, if
you're on a budget and you are concerned about glycosate
and organic there's something from the EWG, the Environmental Working
Group called the Dirty dozen. They have the Dirty dozen

(46:40):
and the Clean fifteen. I would use those as a
way to navigate the grocery store. The Clean fifteen are
foods that are generally on the lower end of pesticides,
and those would be things that you could buy conventional
and non organic and feel pretty confident that they're going
to be at least lower on the pesticide load. Versus
the Dirty dozen. These are foods that are the most
widely spread and most highly spread with glyco sate and

(47:02):
other pesticides and herbicides, and those are the ones that
you would want to buy organic.

Speaker 1 (47:06):
Yeah, I love that, And I was gonna ask you
about the budget side too, because I know that's a
concern for a lot of moms especially, and I think
for me that was actually very instrumental in why I
do cook almost every meal at home, because it's prohibitive,
costs prohibitive to take six kids out to eat all
the time. But I've learned over time, especially with teenagers
who eat an insane amount of food, is like getting
bulk grass fed beef from a local farmer and keeping

(47:28):
it in the freezer. They can make things like beef
fatties as a snack and it's always available, and over
time that actually is cheaper than if I had bought
processed snacks and they were eating snack foods. And I
feel like that's an initial like relearning in that switch.
But it really does save money over time, which brings
me to I know that you're a huge champion of
supporting local and regenerative whenever possible, and I love that

(47:48):
we're seeing more people do this, But any tips for
if people are not already making that shift to prioritizing
local and regenerative when possible.

Speaker 2 (47:58):
Yeah, So there an account. Oh okay, there's an account
called I believe it's called my Health Forward and it's
a college student actually that's really really passionate about regenerative farming,
and he just he's either releasing it or he just
released a guide on his website where you can find
regenerative farms near you, because he's incredibly passionate about this

(48:18):
as well and wants to get more people involved. So
I would just start doing some googling. I was very
blessed and lucky to live in California for ten years,
and I was going to the LA farmers markets and
I was just asking directly. I was asking the farmers like, hey,
how do you grow you know, do you have it
a regenerative farm? Do use pesticides? Do use glyc estate?
So if you have the ability to go to a
farmer's market, I would start there and I would start

(48:40):
asking around because I just found my favorite farmers and
I was just going to them every weekend and buying
directly from them because it's very cool you can buy
directly from a farmer that you know lives an hour
from you. Another way is just google where you live
and google regenerative farms near me and see if you
can find anything like that, or even just google organic
farms near me. I know we're My mom lives in

(49:01):
San Antonio. They don't have an active farmer's market all
the time, and she has found she has a meat
guy who drives in like once a month from a ranch,
like you know, little ways out of San Antonio, and
everybody comes to meet him and they pick up meat
from him. So there's so many different ways around this.
I know. There's also I'm in Denver right now and
there's a farm that does a CSA box. CSA boxes

(49:21):
are amazing. It's also a great way to get a
variety of stuff because every month you'll get, you know,
a box of fruits and vegetables that are in season
and meats and eggs depending on what whatever your CSA
box looks like. And it's a great way to get
consistent local produce and eggs and meat from a farm
near you. And again I would just google, you know,
google where you live and google csa box, and that

(49:41):
would be another great way. And something you said too
that I wanted to touch on about the nutrient density
of things and the budget. I don't think people understand, Katie,
the cost of these old processed foods. They're not cheap anymore.
Fast food is not cheap anymore. In fact, I did
a series on my podcast where I was buying foods
from fast food popular fast food places. So I'll use
Taco Bell as an example. We bought the cheesy girdy

(50:03):
to crunch meal and we priced it out, and then
we went to a local grocery store is like a
or like a Vonds or Routs or somewhere like you know.
It wasn't like a Whole Foods. It was just like
an accessible grocery store that anybody can go to, and
we bought every single ingredient it was organic to make
the cheesy girdy to crunches at home. Not only was
it cheaper every single time we did it, and we

(50:23):
did McDonald's, we did Taco Bell, we did a couple
of them. It was cheaper to buy all the ingredients
organic and to make that meal at home. Then on
top of that, we also had leftovers, so then we
were able to use those leftover ingredients to then make
something else like a taco bowl or whatever it was
the next day. So, you know, when you talk about
budgeting and the expenses of everything, we're paying for the

(50:44):
convenience of this stuff. We're paying for the convenience of
things like fast food and things and packages. So if
you can really get back in the kitchen and cook more,
if you have time, and then you build the ability
to do that, you will save so much money. And
if you're buying nutrient dense foods like beef and avocado
and you know, carrots, et cetera, versus just buying a

(51:05):
bag of tortilla chips, you're gonna go through. You're gonna
be buying so many bags of douridos because they're not
gonna be full and satisfied. Versus if you're giving your
kids real nutrient dents, buy the meat sticks, buy them
things like that that are actually gonna fill them up
and give you more of a bang for your buck
as far as nutrient density goes.

Speaker 1 (51:22):
I love that. I feel like, yeah, kids especially naturally,
will not overeat like you said, steak or ground beef
or even fruit, like there's a your body's hormones kick
in with that. I will say, like my kids can
go through an astronomical amount of raspberries, for instance, but
kids are naturally could have already had that so tuned
in if they don't lose it. And I know you
have so many practical guides. I'll make sure I link
to a lot of your resources in the show notes.

(51:44):
But in our last couple of minutes, I would love
for you to just touch on I've heard you talk
about the idea of progress not perfection, and I know
we've talked about a lot of things and hopefully brought
hope and awareness, not any stress of people like feeling
like there's a lot to change. But I'd love to
end by talking about how even little changes can make
it such a big difference. And it really is about
us all making progress and not having to be perfect
at this.

Speaker 2 (52:05):
Yes, yes, it's all about the progress, and it's all
about consistency. So this is what I like to remind people.
It's not about perfection. It's not about living in a bubble.
It's not about not going out to eat with your
friends because you're concerned that they're not using organic food
I mentioned earlier. I think I have a very very
healthy relationship with food. If my friends are going out

(52:26):
to eat somewhere at a restaurant that I know uses Connolo oil,
I know they use seed oil and they're not using
organic produce, I don't decline that invitation. I go and
I say, you know what, Thank God, I'm buying and
eating organic when I'm home. I'm avoiding seed oils whenever
you know humanly possible, and I'm not eating them on
a consistent basis. My body is resilient and it will
be okay if I have this meal with my friends,
because I think we also forget the power and just

(52:49):
how healthy it is to have a good meal in
community with friends. That is also healthy. It's healthy to
be in the world, to have community, to be with
your friends, to have a connective meal with people that
you love. So that is also very important, and I
don't want people to lose sight of that and think, oh,
I can't ever eat out again because they don't use
organic produce and they're using Knola oil. I think you

(53:11):
know you brought up is something that I say often
to my audience is it's not about perfection. It's not
about trying to live in a bubble and avoid all
these things. Look, we have to live in the real world, right.
We have to know and trust that if we're doing
the right things and we are consistently eating healthy, nutrient
dense foods and taking care of our bodies, we also
have to trust in the resilience of our bodies. And

(53:31):
I will say one more thing too, because I know
a lot of what I brought up is scary, especially
the g life. To say piece I know concerns a
lot of people. Again, our bodies are resilient and there
are things that we can do in order to support
the detoxification pathways of our bodies. And this is something
that I like to do often. I sauna a couple
of times a week. If you have the ability or
the budget to get a sauna, great. A lot of

(53:52):
people have saunas that they're gyms. My gym has a
sauna that I can go use. But if you don't
even have the ability to do that, something is simple
as putting epsom salts in a warm or like a
pretty hot bath. Obviously you don't want to be scolding yourself,
but like hot enough that it can work. Up a sweat.
That's also a great way to detox and get this
stuff out of your body. Also, exercising. Exercising gets your
lymphatic system moving. You can work up a sweat, you'll

(54:14):
get a lot of these toxins out of your body.
But just essentially talking about you know the resilience of
the body, and just know and trust that you're doing
the best that you can. I also don't want to
create guilt. I don't want people to beat themselves up.
And I also don't want them to look back with
shame and guilt for decisions and choices that they've made
in the past. Look, we're all doing the best that
we can, and how can you possibly know the things

(54:36):
that you don't know until you know them? Right? So
I also encourage people to practice kindness and compassion for yourself,
like you're doing the best that you can. You did
the best that you could of the information you had
at the time, and now that you know better, you
can do better. And also trust in your body's resilience
and do the best you can. Buy the healthy foods.
You and your kids are only going to eat the
things that you buy that are in your home, So
try your best to only bring in nutrient dense, really

(54:59):
good healthy foods in your home, and then when you're
out in the world, you know, have that pizza, have
it chips and walk and try to remind yourself and
remember that your body is also resilient and just do
the best you can.

Speaker 1 (55:10):
I love that, as my friend Lauren says, humans are nutrients,
and I'm with you, of like, I won't miss the
chance for connection with other people just because of food quality.
And I know that at home I have the choice
to make sure food's really nutrient dense. And I feel
like we've covered so many amazing topics in this one conversation.
I will of course link to all the places people
can find you and keep following you. I love your content.

(55:31):
Thank you so much for your time and for being
here today. This was such a joy.

Speaker 2 (55:35):
Thank you so much, Katie. I really appreciate coming on
and yeah, thank you for the opportunity.

Speaker 1 (55:39):
And thank you as always for listening, and I hope
you will join me again on the next episode for
the Wallness Mama podcast. If you're enjoying these interviews, would
you please take two minutes to leave a rating or
review on iTunes for me doing this helps more people
to find the podcast, which means even more moms and
families can benefit from the information. I really appreciate your
time and thanks as always for listening.