FORMER FBI PROFILER AND DR. CARLOS ANALYZE MARILYN MONROE CONSPIRACIES

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:06):
Welcome to Inside the Criminal Mind podcast, where we analyze
some of the most notorious criminal cases with psychology and
criminology combined.

Speaker 2 (00:19):
Welcome everyone. I'm doctor Carlos.

Speaker 3 (00:24):
And I'm Andrew Bringle. Hey Carlos, how you doing today?

Speaker 2 (00:27):
You know what, Andy, I'm doing great, And I'm really
excited about today because I know we were taking a
little bit of a detour and heading over to I
guess the Land of Conspiracies with the Marilyn Monroe case.

Speaker 3 (00:39):
Yeah. I think it's an interesting study and I think
that it's fairly topical. I'm I'm gonna reference a documentary
that I recently watched about social media and how it
promulgates conspiracies, and I think this is one that recently
took a new life because of some books and in fact,

(01:01):
some conspiracy theories that you can find on social media.

Speaker 2 (01:05):
I can't wait to hear about that. And hey, folks,
look think about it. A guy in that former FBI profile,
he twenty something years in the FBI forensic psychologists. We're
all going to be looking at this together, this conspiracy Marilynroe.
If this is a direction you enjoy, let us know
in the comments section. Tell us. If this is something
you want us to cover. We're thinking about covering area
fifty one, possibly next week. Either way, we're going to

(01:28):
be moving on to Marilyn Monroe or She was formerly
known as Norma Jean Mortenson. She was born in la
in nineteen twenty six. I don't know if you know
any but actually had a great friend of mine for
many years who actually knew Norma Jean as Norma Jean.
She used to hang out with her. Really yeah wow,

(01:48):
And she became a superior court judge here in Orange
County and they were good friends for many, many years.
Her mother was interested. Yeah, it's so to me. It's
an interesting story. Indeed, her mother was emotionally unstable and
frequently confined to an asylum. So we can already tell
Marilyn Monroe had a rough start. Norma Jeane was weird
by reared by a succession of foster parents and an orphanage.

(02:10):
At the age of sixteen, she married a fellow worker
in an aircraft factory, but they divorced a few years later.
She took up modeling in nineteen forty four and nineteen
forty six signed the short term contract with twentieth Century Fox.
I'm sorry, folks were moving quickly through here. We jumped
from a marriage divorce modeling into right into the marriage
and into modeling, I mean, into a contract. In the movies,

(02:32):
she was the original bomb blonde Bombshell, and she won
a new contract from Fox. Her acting career took off
in the early nineteen fifties with performance in Love Nest
and Monkey Business. Celebrated for her voluptuousness and wide our charm,
she won international fame for her sex symbol roles and
gentlemen preferred blondes. A fun movie How to Marry a
Millionaire and There's No Business Like Show Business, or of

(02:53):
course the famous Seven Year Itch, which is also a
really fun movie, and it showcased her comedic talents and
features the classic scenes. We're gonna start moving over to
the murder or the suicide, one of the two. I
guess it depends on which side you land. And really
a lot of things started the ball rolling. But before

(03:15):
we get to that, empty pill bottles were found in
Meriar Monroe's bedroom after she was found dead in nineteen
sixty two. By nineteen sixty one, me Monroe, beset by depression,
was under the constant care of a psychiatrist, increasingly erratic
in the last months of her life. Now, just to
give you heads up, folks, in nineteen sixty one, she

(03:35):
was thirty five years of age. She lived as a
virtual recluse in her Brentwood la a poem. At midnight
on August fifth, nineteen sixty two, her maid Units Murray,
noticed Monroe's bedroom light on. When Murray found the door
locked and Marilyn unresponsive to her calls, she called Monroe psychiatrist.

(03:55):
Which is an interesting call, Go ahead.

Speaker 3 (03:59):
Give its interest to me, Carlos, is that she had
a meteoric rise to fame, you know, about the same
time that Elvis had his meteoric rise in a different genre.
And he was, of course rock and roll singer, and
she a movie actress. But nevertheless, neither one of them
could really live a normal life. The paparazzi and their

(04:21):
fans really put a lot of pressure on both of
these individuals. That same is a pretty heavy burden for
some people, and so both of them had some a
mental instability handling and adjusting to this fame that they
they came from. And both of them came from poverty,

(04:41):
very poor backgrounds, as children. So I don't as a
psychologist you think that, you know, having that having nothing
at a young age and then just being smothered with
attention old that you know in the mid twenties to
mid thirties, does that have an adverse psychological effect on people.

Speaker 2 (05:01):
That's a great point, and absolutely, you know. But but
there's this a coveat I have to give to it,
which are the generational differences. I mean, this was really
the beginning of Hollywood in the movies, so nobody really
had experienced it that much. I mean actresses and actress
before Marilyn Monroe were what Basil Rathbone, which probably most
of our audience might not know who that is. Learn

(05:22):
the more learn the MOI I think it was oh
Myrna Lloyd, Judy Garland, Judy Garland, and I don't know
if they had the same level of fame because of
the ability not to you couldn't spread the news as
easily as you could in the later fifties and sixties
when you had more radio, more TV, so I think
it really was overwhelming.

Speaker 3 (05:41):
Probably, Yeah, I think you just made an excellent point
in terms of technology, because in the nineteen twenties thirties
and forties, you didn't really have TV. You had radio,
and a lot of the stars were, you know, radio stars.
You had movies. You know, they went from uh, from
the silent movies to the to to speak ease as
they called them in the forties. But this is a

(06:05):
different era. In the fifties and sixties, you started, now,
you know, having television broadcasts on a regular basis. So
and then of course you had magazines in newsprint, and
you can see magazines like Playboy played a big part
in the development of her fame, and I wonder how
burdensome that became to her psyche, you know, in those

(06:27):
those years nineteen fifty nine through sixty two.

Speaker 2 (06:32):
The other thing, too, I guess it stands out for me,
which make great points, is the lack of She probably
had a lack of coping skills and resources, as my
imagination obviously I don't know her and never met her,
and coping skills just because of the way she grew up.
We developed coping skills from our parents and how to
handle things, how to irregulate emotions, and a lot of

(06:52):
things might have been lacking. Who knows, she might have
been fortunate enough to have some good foster parents, but
those could have been issues. On top of that, then
you also have resources. How many people can understand what
she's going through? Maybe a handful during that era, Like
you said, Elvis Presley, Bruce Lee very rare. This is
actually a little bit fair.

Speaker 3 (07:12):
Jimmy Dean, James Dean and her, Yeah, her mom had depression.
Is depression a disease that can be genetically based.

Speaker 2 (07:23):
It has some genetic predisposition. I think it's about forty
percent or so due to variance. Normally, what happens is
the individual. It depends on how long she was with
her mom. Because what happens is the nurturing aspect comes
in because the individual who's got depression, the mom or
the dad will transfer that over right, and every time
they look at them, they're going to be negative. They're
going to be lethargic, depending on what kind of symptoms
a person has. So that's going to start the childhoo

(07:45):
to start mimicking. What's a combination. They're going to have
a combination. Yeah, But people always forget it when when
they have depression, the mom's going to be looking at
them differently than a mom who doesn't have depression. And
this isn't to blame the mom either, but when it
happens that they're going to mimic those behaviors, right, Children
mimic a lot of their parents' behaviors. So if you

(08:06):
have a parent who's very anxious and very scared, children
are going to tend to be very anxious or very scared.
It also depends on the role, but again it really
depends on how long she was with her mom as well.

Speaker 3 (08:17):
So August fifth, nineteen sixty two, her maid noticed her
bedroom white was on, so pick up the story there.
So is the psychiatrist, Ralph Greenson, gained access to the
room by breaking a window? What happened?

Speaker 2 (08:31):
Now? Yeah, well this is interesting too, And I guess
I wanted to ask you that he found Maryland dead
and then the police were called sometime after, which is interesting.
Maybe it's the era, or maybe just the maid only
knew about the psychiatrist. But the maid causes a psychiatrist
who decides to break into the house and doesn't call
the cops. Nobody's calling cops yet, and then an atopsy

(08:53):
found a fatal amount of sedatives in her system. Nobody
calls the hospital either, I don't know if ambulances existed
back and her death was ruled a probable suicide. Of course,
in recent decades have been numbered.

Speaker 3 (09:06):
I can speculate on the on the question that you
were talking about, which is in a couple other more
recent accidental overdoses, the police, the authorities were called later, uh,
print and and Michael Jackson's cases. So I think that
oftentimes the handlers, the confidants want to protect the celebrity,

(09:28):
and so they'll call the medical they'll call the private
physician to you know, try to resuscitate or you know,
they'll try to do something before they have to call
the police. They know once they call the police, the
press are going to get it. It's out right. So uh,
it may have more to do with the protection of
the privacy of the celebrity, uh than there, you know,

(09:49):
than trying to avoid contacting the police.

Speaker 2 (09:52):
That's a great point. That's a great point. And the
first cop on scene was the one who also created
one of the various various conspiracy theories. I guess she
could say it was the detective Clemens. And I'll get
to him in a second. I'm just gonna wrap up
what we have here There have been a number of
conspiracy theories about her death, of course, much of which

(10:14):
they contended she was murdered by John or Robert Kennedy
because supposedly she had an affair with one or both.
These theories claimed that the Kennedys killed her, basically really
had her killed. Some argue that it was the CIA
who did it. CIA usually gets slapped with one of these.
On August fourth, Yeah, I think our friend Dell wouldn't
appreciate it very much.

Speaker 3 (10:33):
I know.

Speaker 2 (10:33):
I did ask my friend Dell, the CIA operative one
time about it, and he said, I can't tell you.
If I did, I have to kill you. So I
don't know what that meant. On August fourth, Robert Kennedy,
Attorney General and his oldest brother's cabinet was in fact
in la On August fourth, nineteen sixty two, two decades
after the fact, Monroe's housekeeper, the one who coll intacted

(10:54):
the psychiatrist, announced with the first time that the Attorney
General had visited Monroe le Monue on the night of
her death and world with her. So I guess we
cops that could be a motive. But the reliability of
these and other statements made by Murray are questionable, but
then you have the first cop on scene. I want
to take a quick read on this actress. Model Memorro
was found dead on August fifth, but when a suicide

(11:15):
note was never discovered and discrepancies in her case arose,
conspiracies began. In twenty sixteen, Merrilyn Monroe Declassified documentary had
a serge Jack Clemens of the LAPD who made hefty
claims that the singer was actually murdered. He says, quote,
I do not hesitate at all to call this what
simply it is, a murder, and I do not hesitate

(11:38):
at all to go go ahead.

Speaker 3 (11:40):
I was going to jump in here just to say that.
You know, when you make those types of allegations, of course,
the logical thing is to look at the victim and say, well,
why would she commit suicide? And what's interesting about this
particular case was the week's leading up to her debt,
she seemed to have turned a corner in her life.
Things were looking up, you know, in terms of professional career.

(12:03):
She was now negotiating with the studio to resume filming
on a new film. She was working to reinvent herself.
At age thirty, five, which you know, back then as
a farl you're you know, middle aged if you will
in Hollywood at thirty five, especially if you're a woman.
So she was looking to reinvent herself. She signed a
contract for a film called What A Way to Go,

(12:26):
And so it seemed that she had everything in her
future going her way. Even on the day of her death,
she had several meetings and was making plans for the
coming weeks and months ahead. So with that, you know,
said the police officer you're talking about, hypothesized that somebody
murdered her, and you mentioned that she had met with

(12:49):
Robert Kennedy and had a fight.

Speaker 2 (12:51):
Yeah. That he goes on to say, I do not
hesitate at all. He's not hesitating a lot. Here to
go and say that a conspiracy existed between the police department,
the Career Coroner's office, and between the La County District
Attorney's office to conceal the murder and pass it off
on suicide. Sergeant Clemens was called to the scene some
four hours after Maryland had died. Upon his arrival, he

(13:12):
discovered Maryland laying face down in a soldier's position in
what he once described as the most obviously staged death
scene he had ever seen. Clemens tot reports that Maryland
was murdered by a needle injection by someone she knew
and probably trusted. In nineteen eighty eight in the Chicago Tribune.
Now doctor Thomas Nogochi debunked Clemens's accusations after finding no

(13:33):
needle marks on the singer's body. Nogochi later ruled the
singer's death as a probable suicide. The documentary also claimed
that Nogochi's own tests were destroyed before being tested. So
we have a conspiracy within a conspiracy. Yeah, Andy, what
do you go for us?

Speaker 3 (13:55):
Well, you know there was an after fellow actor, Peter Lawson,
who had the last conversation, the last known conversation with
Marilyn Monroe. He tried to persade her to come to
a house party that he was he was hosting. He
became worried when he suspected that she had taken drugs,
and her final words to him were say goodbye to Pat,
say goodbye to the President, who was Lawford's brother in law,

(14:18):
and say goodbye to yourself because you're a nice guy.
And then then she sort of dripped it off on
the phone, and Lowton later said that you know that
that did get him some concern. It sounded as if
she was on some type of drugs, and so he
was fearful, in fact, so fearful he called Grief and
the psychiatrist and and went and couldn't he couldn't reach him,

(14:40):
so he called Maryland's lawyer, Milton Brudden, and the lawyer
then called Maryland's house and talked to Eunice, the maid,
who assured him that the star was you know that
Marilyn Moreau was fine. But it wasn't until three point
thirty on August fit that Eunice was concerned because she

(15:01):
noticed that the bedroom door had been locked and the
light was on inside the room at three three thirty am.
So that's when she Then that's when units called Greef
and so, you know, there's it seemed that she had
everything going on positive in her life, but this thirty
six year old, you know, sort of bombshell waning in

(15:23):
her career. She also was fighting demons that were were
pretty well known. So Greefan called Monroe's doctor, a person
named Hymen Ingelberg, and they arrived about four four am,
and that's when they broke in and they noticed her
naked on the bed. So the conspiracy theories that come

(15:44):
about are the fact that there were rumored affairs with
both JFK, which was never proven, but also his brother,
the Attorney General, Robert Kennedy. And there was a you know,
three months before her death was her legendary rendition of
Happy Birthday the JFK that she did at the Madison Garden, Right, Yeah,

(16:10):
so you know, she was, you know, somewhat argues she
was at the height of her career and things were
going better and all of a sudden she's taken away
too early. So that the idea and and and it's
easy to confirm your bias. The idea is that she
had no reason to kill herself and the Kennedy's had
every reason to kill her. And so you start looking

(16:32):
for in a conspiracy, you start looking for that evidence
that confirms that bias. I think it's also very important
as we're talking about conspiracies that they're interesting because they
come to a fact a non factual conclusion in a
court of public opinion and and not in a court
of law. And we were talking earlier, there's a distinction

(16:53):
between the court of public opinion and the court of
law in terms of the rules that you abide by,
and in the court of public opinion, rumor, innuendo, lies,
all of those are handled are looked at as facts
as truth. Whereas in a court of law you have
the rules of law, the rules of evidence. You have
to examine the data as it has to be proven

(17:18):
beyond a reasonable doubt, and so hearsay, for example, is
not admissible in the court of law, whereas in the
court of public opinion, hearsay is ninety percent of what
you end up with. So it's this detective that you
talked about in his gut feelings or you know, she
looked like she was in the stage, that's not factual.

(17:40):
He doesn't have a background in a forensic science. How
would he know. But what he says confirms my bias
that Marylyn didn't kill herself, she must have been murdered.
Therefore it becomes fact in the court of public opinion
without having to weather the storm of being examined under
the harsh to the court of law and the rules

(18:01):
of law and evidence. So what's important about understanding conspiracies
is that it feeds this magical thinking phenomenon and confirmation bias,
and that's no different I think here in the Maryland
and Roe case, a lot of what is speculated isn't proven,
but is rumor or hearsay, gossip, all of which can

(18:25):
feed a a bias. Someone has and confirmed to that
person that yes, she was murdered. It had. It's a
cold case murder. You've got to know that, right. Isn't
that right, Carlos, It's got to be. It's got to be.

Speaker 2 (18:38):
It has another choice, And you know what, if I may,
there's a couple of other theories I wanted to throw
at you, if that's okay, Yeah, sure. Another weird one,
A renowned wired tapper by the name of Bernard Spindle
had bug Monroe's house on the orders of a crooked
union leader Jimmy Hoffa or Chicago mafia boss, saying Ginkanna

(19:02):
now Gienkanna wanted Marilyn Monroe, who was thought to have
had a relationship with his henchman, Johnny Roselli. According to
biographer Darwin Order, the donna said to have had Monroe
over a barrel up to quarter seeing the screen Sirens
first Hollywood contract in return for her seduction of powerful
men and a lot of people had a lot to
lose if Marilyn spoke out, said Porter, the biographer, she

(19:23):
was making a lot of dangerous statements and didn't realize
she was playing with the mafia. Porter believes five mafia
hitman were responsible for her murder on the order of
mob boss Giacana. Another twist, Porter posits it could have
also been one of the Kennedies that hired the mob
boss to get rid of Monroe. That's conspiracy number two.
Here's number three and go ahead.

Speaker 3 (19:47):
Well, it's interesting because you know, it's also conspiracy theory
that the Kennedys were killed by the mob. So sort
of like you know, to go tumble cross Miller's Crossing.
If you ever watched the Coen Brothers movie, it's a
very good movie, sort of like that where there's double
cross and triple cross. You know. It's also interesting that
part of the conspiracy that she didn't take her own

(20:08):
life is that people speculate about Marilyn's psyche that if
she were to kill herself, she would have dressed in
a white nightgown and would have had white sheets. She
would have put her hair, you know, she would have
done her hair, put on makeup, but the fact that
she was found wearing no makeup, totally naked to her
hair a mess obviously reveals that she didn't kill herself

(20:31):
of her own free will. She was murdered, and that's
one of the lines of logic that feed into these
conspiracy theories.

Speaker 2 (20:40):
Absolutely, get ready, Andy, you're going to go into the
X files. Now you're ready.

Speaker 3 (20:45):
Sure?

Speaker 2 (20:46):
Conspiracy number three, she knew too much about I'm serious, folks,
aliens in a documentary called Unacknowledged by conspiracy theorist doctor
Stephen Greer, who claims Monroe was murdered by the CIA
because she knew the truth. Hey about Rosswell Area fifty
one and plan to reveal all In the alleged memo
that Greer believes refers to the story to Rosswell UFO crash,

(21:09):
JFK is said to have told Monroe he witnessed evidence
of things from out of space at a secret airbase,
and we have a number of smoking gun documents, according
to Greer. Now now we switch to the story a
little bit. Greer says he has a number of smoking
gun documents, including a wire tap of Marilyn Monroe the
day before she died, which has never been declassified. She
was threatening to hold the press conference to tell the

(21:31):
world what JFK had told her during Pillow Talk about
extraterrestrial debris in the vehicle at a secret air base. Wow,
you want to bother with that one? Or should we
just move along?

Speaker 3 (21:46):
Yeah? I mean Area fifty one and the little green men.
I've fanned out to New Mexico and Roswell and seen
a lot of green men. The town celebrates aliens. You
know who knows there's There's also rumored that she had
CIA information about the intended plan to kill Fidel Castro

(22:09):
and you know whose lips in ships? Yeah, so that
so that the Kennedy's had her killed because she had
this information also from pillow Talk, supposedly. So there's a
number of motives, if you will. And and of course
you know she left a grieving ex husband although they
were only married for eight months. Joe DiMaggio famous for

(22:32):
leaving a rose at her at her grave site every year,
So you know, it's it was a Hollywood story. It
still is after all these years. How many years are
we talking from nineteen sixty to the president? Right?

Speaker 2 (22:50):
Yeah?

Speaker 3 (22:52):
And it's no too many people it's an unsolved murder,
not not a solid suicide, and they'll they'll always believe
that because again it feeds their their bias that the
government is somehow sinister. It's not the only case either,
I mean, there are a number of other types of conspiracies.

(23:17):
They seem to be more frequent now than ever, and
perhaps there's a reason for that. There's a great documentary
carl Is called Social Dilemma that's now on Netflix. The
documentary talks about how social media has promulgated different conspiracies,
and that's one aspect of this documentary, and and moreover,

(23:39):
how uh social media platforms and their algorithms understand the
human keyboard and relate that humans behavior. So if you
like and oftentimes it's to the light button, that the
algorithm will try to define you as a as a
human model and predict your behavior to sell you at

(24:01):
If you gravitate towards Facebook pages about conspiracies, your notifications
will be more frequently about conspiracies. And so it's interesting
how on social media, whether it's Twitter or Instagram or Facebook,
that the algorithms are designed to kind of move you

(24:24):
like cattle through those mazes until they're slaughtered, right, and
so now they promulgate like the conspiracies you talked about
aliens at Site fifty one, the JFK assassination, whether Elvis
is really dead nine to eleven, another big conspiracy, Sandy Hook,

(24:45):
another conspiracy Gates, Oh Tupac. I mean you could go
on and on. There's probably one hundred or more conspiracies
that you could find about Facebook, including Marilyn Monroe's death,
you know, and I think, yes, go ahead, I was talking.
I think the last point on this, the last ye

(25:07):
the last point on on that, on this point is
that these these social media platforms then also helped feed
and proulgate these websites that are quote unquote news websites
but really don't offer news, sites like info Wars, Planet Tree,
will vigilanti citizens, and you hear then conspiracies even going

(25:29):
about COVID nineteen, and so it's it's interesting, it's it's
a it's a it's a sign of our times, I think, Carlos.

Speaker 2 (25:37):
And that's actually also national security too, because I know
China propagated the theory that COVID nineteen started here at
Fort Dietrich, and then we site military soldiers over to China.
But they're propagating this stuff in North Africa. They're propagating
it in other countries, even they're Chinese ambassadors in France
and Sweden were actually retweeting the conspiracy of the for

(26:00):
Dietrich origination of the Wuhan I mean of the COVID nineteen.
You know, it's interesting too.

Speaker 3 (26:08):
I was gonna say, you know, the I mentioned one
of those conspiracies, the Pizzagate conspiracy that children were being
trafficked by Democrats in pizza parlors, which is now in
June twenty twenty, has found renew popularity on a Chinese
platform called TikTok, with the videos tagged hashtag pizzagate reaching

(26:30):
eighty million views. Eighty million views, and so you have
it not just you know there, but you also have
it manifesting and actualizing in real criminal criminal actions. In
December twenty sixteen, Edgar Welch, a guy from North Carolina,
went to a pizza parlor with an ar fifteen and

(26:52):
shot three shots into the walls of the pizza parlor.
When the police arrested and they said what's going on,
he said, I'm here to stay the children from the
sex trafficking. So now there are a lot of people
that look at these conspiracies and they don't chuckle. They
believe they are fact. And again it's that core to
public opinion and the power the power of the media,

(27:16):
the social media platforms that we now live in.

Speaker 2 (27:18):
And it becomes a problem because you also have things
like photo shopping. There's another name for another thing, I
forgot what it's called, off the top of my head,
where they change the superimpose huh deep fake deep fakes
as well, exactly, So you have those, you have search
and there's a study that was done called search engine
manipulation effect where the top search results that you pop

(27:41):
up are geared towards the most. They deny it, but
usually the organizations that pay the most for those top spots.
So if you're looking for an article on particular topic,
you'll notice it's always the same cast of characters that
pop up in the first five to ten searches. Facebook
is mentioned earlier, you mentioned them, but they also there's

(28:03):
an article that came out a few years back talking
about how they deliberately manipulated the timeline by either increasing
the amount of positive stories compared to negative stories, and
see if they can manipulate the moods by checking the
comments out, and they did find out that it was
influencing the people's moods by the responses that they were
giving after a while to their other friends and whatnot.

(28:27):
So you're kind of going back to mind control mk Ultra.
If you want to throw another conspiracy theory out there as.

Speaker 3 (28:31):
Well, well, you know it's interesting too, because the one
central theme of all of these conspiracy theories is to
induce the conspiracy book if you will, to not trust fact,
not trust what they hear as evidence or base backs.

(28:56):
So when you question the truth and you're open to
any alternative truth, and this is true in many many areas.
So if I'm now questioning the government in terms of
their ability to kill an actress, well then I can
start questioning the government on any fact that they give me,

(29:20):
or the news media because it's fake news, or any
other institution, the FBI, the CIA, And so when I
start questioning all of not just a piece or two,
but if I start questioning it at an institutional level,
what is fact? What is truth? Well, it opens me
up to susceptibility to any false truth that might be

(29:43):
out there that might sound good and might confirm my
own bias about the government or the institution. I'm questioned,
and that's what you find. The Muslims who or the
Americans who who thought that nine to eleven was a
hope point out that Jews were given a couple of

(30:03):
days notice not to be in the.

Speaker 2 (30:06):
Towers, right, that's right.

Speaker 3 (30:09):
So remember that conspiracy.

Speaker 2 (30:12):
Yeah, yeah, the people.

Speaker 3 (30:16):
That questioned Sandy Hook and the conspiracy, the actors that
nobody was killed. There was just actors are rejecting the
fact that people's lives were lost and families were grieving
those losses. The same thing is true with two hundred
thousand Americans dead by COVID. If you question the administration

(30:39):
or you question the CDC, well, then two hundred thousand
people haven't died. And you can see these conspiracies online
on social media. This is just a hoax. This is
a hoax pandemic. Two hundred thousand people haven't died, or
if they did die, they died from a car wreck
or they died from a heart attack, and they're just
call them COVID. And so it beans to our own

(31:03):
personal bias and our own form of magical thinking. Part
of which is to protect ourselves against the big bad world.

Speaker 2 (31:11):
Do you know what's interesting and that you have conspiracy
theories that actually turned out to be true, which I
guess fuels people to continue. One of them I remember
was the Project Sunshine, where conspiracy theories were going around.
People said that the US the government was doing a
major study measuring the effects of nuclear fallout on the

(31:32):
human bodies. So the government was stealing dead bodies to
do radioactive testing. And eventually it was proved that the
government was stealing parts of dead bodies because they need
a young tissue. They recruited a worldwide network of agents
to find recently deceased babies and children. So I guess
sometimes when you have some of these, I mean, it's
not exactly the way they did it. Or during the

(31:53):
Prohibition when the government poisoned out law to keep people
from drinking, that's interesting.

Speaker 3 (31:59):
Find some nuance in that though, Carlos, because I actually
work conspiracy cases criminal cases. Right, So a conspiracy is
when two or more people, so you have to have
at least two people to form a group by definition,
so two or more people trade information and knowledge and
have an overt act to do something that's a conspiracy, right, Yeah,

(32:23):
So if it's a criminal a criminal conspiracy by definition,
you have two or more people that are attempting to
a cover up a criminal act. Could be a murder,
it could be a robbert, it could be anything. It
could be any kind of criminal behavior. So if absolutely,
the government could conspire. There's no such thing as collusion,

(32:45):
at least in the criminal code but at the federal level.
But you can conspire two or more people could conspire
to commit let's say, the murder of Marilyn Monroe. JFK
and RFK. That's all you need. It could be more,
but those that's all you need. So going to your
earlier point, yes, absolutely there are criminal investigations that are conspiratorial,

(33:08):
and there's evidence that may be in sort of a
cold case. May you may not know all the conspirators
right or all the facts in that conspiracy, but the
difference being that the courts in which you try the
facts in the case in the court of public opinion.
And many of the conspiracies that we've alluded to today

(33:29):
are ones that are not based in fact. They're based
in rumor, in nuendo, hearsay, and they wouldn't they would
not stand the test of the rules of evidence that
you have to in a court of law. But that
doesn't make them less true. And the irony is it
doesn't make it less true to those who believe. There's

(33:49):
a saying for those who believe, no explanation is necessary.
For those who don't believe, no explanation will suffice. So
if you talk to someone who really if you talk
to a person who embraces a conspiracy, you can give
them all the facts in the world, and they're going
to begin calling you names because they can't defend their

(34:10):
conspiracy other than to say you're ignorant or a fool,
or insult you in some manner.

Speaker 2 (34:15):
Here's my last statement to me, and I'm going to
do the most famous of all conspiracies when it comes
to a lot of movies, actors and actresses. And I'm
ending it on my note here, and you can conclude
as well on your side for me. It was John
Baker's book, author of Marilyn Monroe Alive in nineteen eighty four.
According to him, she's still alive. She was staying at
an institution for twenty years after being recognized without being

(34:37):
recognized before being released she was picked up by a
hitchhiker in Nova, Scotia who claimed to be Marilyn Monroe,
a now paranoid schizophrenic, and she told him of her
days as a movie star. And this is a common
conspiracy theory, was the person just never died.

Speaker 3 (34:53):
Yeah, no, you know what. And I actually believe that
conspiracy because I was actually at a Walmart in Vestal
a couple of weeks ago, and I thought I saw
Marilyn Monroe with Elvis, and when I stopped them, they
wouldn't give me their their true names, but they did
tell me that they were married and living happily ever

(35:15):
after here in Central New York. So there you go,
Elvis and Mariy Monroe, Central New York.

Speaker 2 (35:23):
I think we'll wrap it up on that. Thanks again,
folks for listen. If you want to support our podcast,
make sure to share and subscribe and leave some comments
of what conspiracies you want us to tackle as we
continue every week breaking things down inside the Criminal Mind.
Thanks a lot, Andy, Yeah, I enjoyed it, Carl, Its
interesting topic. Absolutely take care of everyone,