Award-Winning Author & Film Producer Chris Haley is in THE HAVEN!

Author and Filmmaker, Chris Haley joins V. Helena in THE HAVEN to discuss his new book of poetry, Fists and Rainbows!

Episode Transcript

(00:54):
Welcome to another exciting day in theHaven. I am so yeeked to be
in the studio with my dear friendChris Haley. Chris is a well respected
speaker and advocate of African American history, self empowerment, and genealogy. As
director of both the Study of theLegacy of Slavery and Maryland at the Maryland

(01:15):
State Archives Research Department and the UtopiaFilm Festival in Greenbelt, Maryland, Chris
has played a big role in pressingforward issues related to African and African American
genealogy and the arts through literature andfilm. So put your hands together and

(01:36):
help me in welcoming my dearest dearestfriend, Chris Haley. I said that
like two three times, and Ilove that. And checks in the mail.
Actually I take cash. That's I'mnot giving Bank of America any reason.
Yeah, cause I have it throughuh CQ, I think, which

(01:57):
is where my money goes. Butyou seek you because it's I'm a state
in I'm a state employee. Ahis it okay to broadcast that? I
think so? I think it's okacausenow we've said it because I worked in
the Maryland State Archives. Say itnow we can't unring the bell. So
anyway, Chris Haley, that AnitaWard ring my bell. It was somebody
named Ward. It wasn't Birt Wardbecause he was in Batman. Oh,

(02:21):
I only know that because the OTV shows. Okay, so you guys
have an idea of how this interviewright off the top of this interview.
But it's okay because it's my buddyand I write it writes and so you
know, I mean that whole thingabout authors being a little rose. But
today we're talking about his books andRainbows, which is a collection of poetry,

(02:49):
very very good poetry, I mightadd, very stimulating in many many
ways, and it just kind ofcaptures a whole plethora of human and an
action you said stimulating on TV.Like girl, listen, you'll get it
when you get it right, right. But so talk to me about this

(03:13):
book and what was the impetus forit? You know, it's when you
write, as you know, there'sthere's things that come up to you like
all of a sudden, by byby momentary, like you you pass Aboudy
in the street and you think,oh my gosh, that person reminds me
of somebody, and you jotted downin your iPhone or your your Android or
on a napkin or whatever. Thensome things they take a longer time because

(03:35):
there's things that you see in thenews. So this book is I would
say, a combination of all that, uh huh, all that all that
I say, because even when thereality of it has two sections with one
fist in the air and also hollow, because those were two separate books that
I was writing through many many years. So sometimes it's because I saw something

(03:57):
in the news that really really botheredme about African American issues or the injustice
that's going on, or the perceivedpreference that people of color are receiving,
which would really bother me, soI'd write something about it that sort of
talked about hypocrisy of that. Andthen from the LGBTQ issues, it's more
like, well, you just seesomebody and you wonder what if or what

(04:18):
did or what didn't, and thenthat becomes another poem, which is almost
like a story in and of itself. And again, some of these things
they may be i'd say years agothat I just found them again and decided,
well, let me see what kindof collection can I put these in
where one could at least sort ofkind of think that there's a theme to

(04:39):
it, and that's kind of wherethis went. And once you get all
these poems together, or some peoplecall them poem wars or poem wars because
it's like they're giving sort of areenactment of my life in sometimes lyrical words,
you then have to come over thetitle. So it's almost first it
comes to all the different poems thatyou're written, think, okay, I

(05:00):
think these things I want to putin a book. Now, what am
I gonna call this book? Andso Rainbows that's supposed to cover all the
ones that have to do with LGPGQissues and fists is really covering the fact
that it's like black pride and blackempowerment, things of that sort, and
put them together because both of thosestories are put together in this one book,
Fists and Rainbows. Wow. Hello, yeah, honey, you did

(05:25):
that. Thank you, thank youso I and you answered a lot of
uh of the other questions that Iwas thanks for having me on. So
okay. So this collection of poetry, it sounds like it came to you
over a number of years of experiences. So what made you decide okay?

(05:48):
Now is the time for me topull all of those experiences together into a
collection of poetry and put it outto the world. Wow, that's a
great question, I think, II it's like she had your own TV
show. I don't know, that'sthe thought. I think part of it
is that depending on what the externalforces are that are that that I imprivaged

(06:13):
you, which is to say I'ma media person, which is I I
started off as an actor and writer. Those are the two things I always
wanted to do, and then subsequentlyI became someone who's really big into history,
and so with so much stuff goingon now pre COVID and especially during
COVID, I felt like there's alot of of assumptions and presumptions and points

(06:35):
of view which I think are soone sided and are so negative, not
based on fact, about people's rights. Quite frankly that I thought I wish
there was something that I could doin some small way to to get the
message out there that not everybody agreeswith this, or to be upset because
someone didn't say something or should saysomething. And so I think it really

(06:57):
was within the last four years thatI thought I've got to put something out
there because there's too much being pushed, especially in the years of let's say
number forty five, where I thoughtthere's a lot of anti, a little
yeah, anti, a whole lotthat that's out there, and I thought
there's there should be some point ofview that's expressed that says, no,

(07:18):
this is why people people feel thatthey're they're uh underrepresented, or why they
feel that there's hypocrisy which is keepingus down or ignoring us or leaving us
diminished or erased, which of coursethere goes all the humor. I used
to say, now it's getting allserious. But but that's really why I
sort of felt like I need toget this out now before and it hasn't

(07:41):
happened. Unfortunate things change and maybethey start getting really good, and maybe
people get really like, yeah,I wanna embrace everybody in the world,
despite their color or sexual orientation.However, we know that as of today,
it seems like it's going more theopposite direction, right if there's more
pushed, as we know in incertainly in in Florida, certainly in Texas,

(08:01):
be there seems to be much morepush against equality equanimity that I I
thought, again, th if notnow when I know that sounds like a
cliche statement. It's perfect but that, but that's what I thought it.
So I just keep pushing stuff tobe out there that I could write,
which in some way will give adifferent point of view than what is being

(08:24):
I'm gonna say, pedled in inin the media in a in a major
way, I feel, And itjust it just quite factly pissed me off,
right and was therapy. It wastherapy. It was it w it
was a it was a way ofsaying something about what is and what is
it? Cause one of the poemsI think I wrote in this book,
it's called privilege, and it's reallywhat And one of the things I say

(08:45):
in it is that privilege is nota word I like, but I'll tell
you what it's like. And oneof the things I said it it's like
not having to worry about one personbeing president where you've had forty four others
to choose from, because it's it'sjust that sense of how one person all
of a sudden equaled was equal toall the people who preceded him, which
to somebody, I think, well, that's pretty hypocritical and or it's a

(09:09):
compliment, because if you're going tosay that this one black president is equal
to all the forty three who precededhim. Well, all right, then
you were saying he really was somethingand different to try to say that,
no, now you're equal, andthose are the type of things they wanted
to take it exactly because that wasa pushback against what he did. Right,

(09:30):
right, So, okay, collection, years and years of experience bottled
into just etchings writings, pulled ittogether. You said, now is the
time who issia audience, my audience. But people who felt like I feel
you know that, I mean,that's certainly my hope is that people who
feel that there's a little bit toomuch being spoken that is not being addressed

(09:56):
at a point counterpoint, which isto say, if you feel that if
you're watching a certain news network andall they're doing is diminishing you and your
feelings and your concerns, then thenmy book was basically saying, well,
you're forgetting about this and or you'reignoring this. So my book seems I
want my book to speak to thosepeople to say that, well, I'm

(10:18):
somebody who agrees with your thinking,who agrees with the fact that yes,
we have been ignored, Yes wehave been been underrepresented, and let's say
it, and let's put it outthere and let's acknowledge it. And let
me tell those people who probably wouldhate what these books are about that I
am saying it and will probably notagree with it any way, no matter

(10:41):
how far it goes, this willbe one of those books that's banned.
And it definitely pushes the conversation.And and I think that was I'm assuming
that was also part of Yes,I don't know if you, if you
intentionally did it, Like how couldanybody read these and not wear some kind
of opinion about the sub or thething m And but I don't know if

(11:03):
that was your intention or did youyou just write because you were feeling it?
Right? Well, I think partof what one has to accept as
a writer, or I I sayit has to You don't have to do
anything, but one can accept orcould accept, depending on what type of
writing you're going to do. I'vealways wanted to be a creative writer.
However, writing a book or anovel or a play or a screenplay is

(11:24):
very hard, very challenging. Ittakes a lot of time. The feelings
that I've had are like sort oflike boom, I really feel terrible about
this. I want to write aboutit. Do I wanna write a whole
book? Well, yeah, Iwanna write a whole book, but that's
gonna take months and months and monthsand revision exceptise years. So what can
I do now? I can writea poem. I can write something to
guess that that motion out right now. Fix. It's a quick fix.

(11:46):
It's a h addressing something in ain a issue. It's almost like when
you you're in a conversation with somebodyand and the conversation is over, and
you think, I wish I hadsaid this, yes, and so this
is my response to that. Andthe other thing is what takes it a
while to be I guess put forthis that you have to be brave,

(12:07):
courageous and open enough to say whatam I writing? Do? I want
this to come out there? Andfor the longest time, I literally thought,
I will only put this out ifsomebody else publishes it. For two
reasons. One was that one wasthat would be like, it's too vain
if I do it myself, It'sjust like no, No, I have
to wait to somebody publishes it.The other thing was, and this is

(12:28):
absolutely true, I just got itthe thing? Okay, event right,
right? Because if I have myselfno, yeah, speaking of Madonna hung
up. No, something was thatif you're going my poems are very biographical
or at least pseudo biographical. IfI'm going to write this, then I'm
basically telling my story without having totell my story. So I don't have

(12:52):
to talk to somebody and say onthis, that and the other and say,
oh, well I wrote this book, and then they can look at
the book and then did some degree. Well, we never have to have
that conversation and we could just havea drink and eat something, right,
because now you know what I thinkabout this? Right now? You know
what I think about that. Yeah, because you've read. They have questions
and they have fout of questions,which is great and wonderful. But I
tell you, most of the peoplethat have read, even close friends who

(13:15):
probably do not know me as awriter. They only know me as an
actor and or this history guy.Mmm, most of them have only they've
been very i'd say, very complimentaryand very supportive, and they hardly ever
will bring up that I didn't knowthat I didn't know this. Mostly it's
all about I didn't know you feltthat strongly, Yeah about this that other

(13:37):
because you know something else that youwere I think right on the edge of
saying about being a writer is theresponsibility that comes with it. Yeah,
and someone with your background, someonewith your A grammatas, people look at
you a certain way mm and beforeeven talk to you. I mean they

(14:01):
look at your credentials and they're like, Wow, this man's he's got it
going on, especially when it comesto African and African American culture and just
all that you've brought to the forefrontin that spectrum. And then you write
this book and then there is avoice that may be different from how they

(14:24):
envisioned you before they talk to you. But then there's a level of responsibility
that comes to that because now itstarts the conversation, and these are conversations
that need to be had there.There is very what you've been here is
very powerful on so many spectrums,and to talk to an intellectual like you

(14:46):
about these things can be extremely stimulating. There's that word again, I mean
very very stimulating. And you know, I would just want to sit down
with my rose and and you know, sit at a bar and talking for
hours, which I think we diddo that once, but thank you.

(15:11):
No, but we knew each otherbefore that. Yes, but yeah,
but that's what That's what I mean. So do you along those lines,
when you distributed this book and peoplethat you knew read it, did you
find those conversations coming and were theywere they easy? Were they were you
tentative about them? I would saythat part of the reason why I wrote

(15:33):
this was awesome because there were conversationsI was having that I didn't like having
to have over and over and overagain, which were some of them that
I don't know how exactly I addressedit, but I think I addressed it
tangentially. It's like slavery wasn't reallysuch a bad thing. But that's something
outside of what's been said now aboutthe whole thing about how well slavery taught

(15:54):
slave skills, taught skills that benefitI just recently heard that in the news.
I think it's only been in thelast few days. Yeah, you
know, and I thought, wow, how can you think that? But
some people do think that, yes, and they think it because they want
to compare it to some other situationof black people who may be in u

(16:14):
in Africa in a very impoverished andin a country that's run by a dictator.
It's like whenever it's a dictator runcountry in a good way, right,
And then so those are the typeof things I dress. And also
what I've heard so many times isthat black people enslaved other black people.
And I'm thinking, well, thinkabout what you're saying. Black people in

(16:34):
Africa were parts of different tribes,of parts of different country who were at
war with each other. So theyweren't looking at this other person. They
Oh, that's another black person.I can't enslave them. They were saying,
this is my enemy, and soI do what I can to defeat
my enemy, for my people,for my community, for my tribe,
so to speak. Just like inEurope we hear all about Queen and Elizabeth

(16:56):
the First had her cousin, orat least her people had her cousin America
in Scot's executed. They're both white, they're both white women, and yet
that is somehow considered okay, orit's it's not. It's never looked at
from a racial point of view.All they're interfighting between Europe and right and
and you know, and even whenwhen uh, Queen Cleopatra and Mark Anthony

(17:19):
and Julius, Caesar and Octavian allthis fighting exactly exactly, but nobody talks
about, oh they were they werethe same race. But when it's about
black people, it's like, well, black people are enslaving black people,
so theoretically that makes it okay.And so that's from some of the things
I dress in there. It's likethe hypocrisy of how we are viewed differently

(17:41):
in the situations we go through thanhow others are viewed. Absolutely and well
said. So let me cause thegood times are just the world and a
word at the time. Right,So let let's talk about your process for
for writing. And I'm assuming fromeither something I read or something that you

(18:03):
said in a different forum, andI think you said it also here tonight
you talked about, you know,something popping in your head? Right,
you just have to I is Iit does it come that easily for you?
The poetry, I would say,it comes now good, poor chief
doesn't come easily done. But ifyah r what is good? What is

(18:25):
bad? And I would say andI and I I feel like this is
at least certainly for me and alsoas far as those people who are writers
or speakers and I was thinking thismorning when I was listening to the the
something on the radio, uh itwas I think it was Ryan Zimmerman,
who was, uh a big player, really well known player for the Washington
Nationals, and he was giving hisopinion on how he liked He liked the

(18:47):
the new rules and baseball, howit's quicker, like you you have to
throw a bar very twenty seconds.And he was saying, I really like
it. I think it's better.He said, yea, in the difference
of four and a half hours,it's only two and a half hours.
I like it in my opinion.And I thought, realistically, how many
times do we really really really needto say in my opinion? I mean
who, I mean, who elseis speaking right now? I'm saying it
unless this, and then you shouldsay blah blah blah blah says this.

(19:11):
But otherwise, if you're saying it, we know what's your opinion. So
I just think about that sometimes.So when I write, I try to
remember that in everybody, it's myopinion. It's my thoughts that are being
put out there. And do Ihave the again the courage to follow through?

(19:33):
And sometimes it can be as quickas or as easy as looking at
a book from a fellow author andthen thinking, hmm, what would I
do with that title? What wouldbe the thought of a story that I
would do with a certain title thatanother author has written. Or in this
room where people don't know it,but there's a green screen in this room.

(19:56):
So there's so many different things canbe put over a green screen.
Who's the person who invited the greenwho invented the green screen, why did
they invent the green screen? Andwhy is it green? Who was it
by accident that this green was thecolor or was it a through a different
amount of several amounts of experimentation.So I think it's It can come as

(20:18):
easily as a one time I sawa white squirrel and when I was taking
walks during COVID, and I thought, that's crazy. I hardly ever see
a white squirrel. So I'm gonnawrite about this. Yeah, And first
it's the subject, and then youdecide to make something up about it.
You sort of make a story whichmay or may not have anything to do
with the reality of why a squirrelis white and difference to being brown and

(20:41):
difference to being black. Yeah,but in your mind it's whatever it inspires
and for I think for me asa writer, certainly there's different points of
view that I wanna get out there, for sure, especially since so much
of this is politically based. It'sor at least I mean I'm politically based,
but it's certainly socially just as whatever. It's Yeah, yeah, it's
it's in mostional feelings based on considerationof how we're treated as as a people.

(21:06):
Right, Let's say, Yeah,there's other ones when it's just a
fun feeling, like just writing stuffbecause it's a sunny day. What does
that mean to me? What canit mean to you? Because sometimes a
sunny day can be the absolute oppositeif someone was feeling awful, because then
that sunny day is is a jokeand it's the it's it's the sky making
fun of you, or it's anotherway of looking at right sunny day And

(21:27):
you know, is is your perspectivesomething that someone could read and say,
oh, you know, I neverlooked at it that way? Right?
And and even with the issues thatyou talk about, mm it it also
begs that you know, I hadn'tthought of it that way, right.
There's some delicious stuff in here,I mean, mm, but there is
because I and I'm saying that,you know, looking at it in that

(21:49):
way, because as I was readingsome of these, I was like,
wow, I mean I just yyour word usage. I mean definitely because
I such I associate you as aintellectual I do, and you're funny.
On top of that, I loveall that is, mister Chris Haley.
And so in reading that and readingsome of your work here and knowing you

(22:10):
as I do, and I justthought, wow, this is just so
incredibly amazing, just like it,which you've not had to have you on
the show. So along the linesof poetry and the formal writing of poetry,
most of if not all, ofyour poems are freestyle. You would

(22:30):
say, okay, did you considerany of like a high coup or limerick
or just any of the other formsof poetry, But this is what hits
you, Like, how did thatwork? I think one of them probably
is high Q, but I don'tremember which one of it is because I
knew that was a form. Andsometimes sometimes you just want to test yourself

(22:52):
and because realistically, yes, Iwant people to buy my book. Where's
my camera? Buy my book?But I would say I I and I
think this is the truth of mostpeople who are artists, or let's say,
the people who are really really thissounds very really, really good.
They don't think they're really really good, right, They're probably second guessing themselves

(23:15):
every single second, every single moment, and when they watch themselves on TV
or they read their poem, there'salways moon God, why did I use
that word? Why did I usethat phrasing? I could have done this
better? At some point, youjust need to put the put the baby
down. Yeah, you just haveto let it go and just think.
This is how I felt about itat that time. This was as good

(23:36):
as I could be at that time, and let it go, because otherwise
you won't publish anything. You won'twrite it. You won't God knows you
won't dare to give it to somebodyelse to look at. Because like yesterday,
I was telling you before we saidwe were on the air that I
had a friend look at these poemsfor a new book that I'm going to
put out, called your Buddy,Your Buddy coming to an Amazon near Youth,

(24:00):
And he said something about what canI share with the use of feedback.
I just wanted him to write ablurb for it, and I was
like feedback because in my mind,you almost you know, tooth be told,
you almost never feel it's good enough. You feel like it's okay,
it's all right. But is itreally good? Cause I feel like I'm
a better Yeah, And as anactor, I was always like, but

(24:22):
was that really a good reading?Was I really true? And so for
these writings, I'm like, wasthat really good? Was that the best
it could be? Is it somethingthat other people would appreciate if it got
out further than the Bowie area ofthe Maryland area or what have you.
And he had mentioned how what I'dwritten, which is pretty much the story,
struck him a way that he wonderedif it's what I meant? And

(24:45):
I said, you know, asa matter of fact, it really is
exactly what I meant. Because therewas something about when I was a kid,
I sang at a a talent showwhen I was about nine years old,
and I said, and I sangto complete and I just left the
l next line is this blank?Because that's but it was nobody applauded,
nobody bow It was just blak,he said. He said, I wondered
it. Look, it's it seemedreally funky to me because I didn't know

(25:07):
if there was supposed to be aword there. And I said, you
know, actually that's exactly what Imeant it to be, because people didn't
respond, and I wanted the readerto to to think that there's nothing there
because there was nothing there, right. But that's a risk because somebody may
think, oh, well, therewas a te topographical area there, there's
probably a word in lying there,and it exactly and and I I think
that that is a good way ofdescribing your book. I mean, not

(25:33):
necessarily that it goes against a norm, but it causes you to think in
ways that you may not have thoughtbefore you picked it up. That's the
beauty of your writing and the beautyof your book. And I'm so glad
that you came on to talk.Thanks. So one final question, sure,
what advice would you give to youngauthors out there? And and let's

(25:56):
stick to poetry, since it's that'sthe one we're talking about, right,
who are interested in writing poetry butd don't really know how to start.
I would first thing I th Ithink is go with your feelings first as
much as possible. Uh, one, W, A, and C,
because your feelings will express what youwant better than trying to express somebody else's

(26:22):
feeling, which is other way likeif you see the sun, what does
the son mean to you? Notdo you think the son will mean to
another reader? Right? But toanother writer, what does it mean to
you? Right? Cause that's whatit really should matter, cause somewhere out
there there should be hopefully somebody whorelates to that. Just like you said
earlier that I didn't really think aboutit that way, yeah, or maybe
I did, but I didn't knowanybody else did. And also what I

(26:45):
think really has helped me some andwas struggling with this or struggle with any
any poetry. And it also comesfrom an active point of view. Read
it aloud to yourself, because there'sso much slam poetry now where you see
online on on YouTube or Instagram orTikTok. Reading it aloud can mean so
much to you and to others becausesometimes if you just look at upon a

(27:06):
page, you will probably or possiblythank god, that doesn't rhyme, that
doesn't flow, that doesn't have anylyrics. But if you read it aloud,
yes, if you read it aloud, you will give it the emphasis
that it deserves, and then somebodyelse including you yourself, will think this
is what I mean, and ifI ever get the chance to read it
out loud, this is what ithow it'll be expressed, and then people

(27:26):
will get what you're doing. Absolutely, Chris Haley, thank you so much
for coming on. Thank you,No, I must have you back on
because this man is just a geniusin so many ways and so many things.
So thank you for having me back. And dream Catchers, thanks for
tuning in and being a big partof why we do this. It is

(27:47):
my hope that you are inspired inyour own writer's journey and that this season
will inspire you to continue and finish. You can stream us on any of
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(28:08):
www dot writers Havenshow dot com.You can also follow me on Instagram and
Facebook at author v Helena. Ona side note, I hope you're following
our exciting news for October twenty twentyfour. Join me and the Writers Haven
Show crew for a fabulous time aboardthe Virgin Voyages, Valiant Lady. There

(28:30):
will be great ports of call.But the best part of it all is
you will be able to get upclose and personal with some of your favorite
authors. Sorry I read that wrong. And if you're a published author,
you may get a chance to beinterviewed on the show while we are cruising.

(28:51):
That is exciting. Isn't that exciting, Chris? There will be masterclasses,
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the dates. Okay, don't wait, celebrate. That's all for now and
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