July 12, 2025 • 56 mins
"Tonight on The 'X' Zone Radio Show, we dive into one of the most enduring unsolved mysteries in American history—the 1971 hijacking of Northwest Orient Flight 305 by the mysterious figure known only as D.B. Cooper. But tonight, we're not just recounting the tale—we're speaking with someone who has a personal connection to the legend. Joining us is Lisa Story, the niece of a man she says was D.B. Cooper. Could she hold the missing link to one of the FBI’s most baffling cases? Let’s find out."
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:14):
Welcome to the exisode, a place where fact is fiction
and fiction is reality. Now here's your host, Robconnell.
Speaker 2 (00:29):
It was a.
Speaker 1 (00:29):
Cold November day, Flight three oh five took flight a
man in a suit in the cabin's low light, with
a briefcase of secrets and a bourbon in hand. He
(00:55):
passed a note softly. The hijack began. He said this,
saying a game. There's a bomb in this case land
in Seeatt'll do it quiet, no chase.
Speaker 2 (01:13):
He asked for some cash, she.
Speaker 1 (01:15):
For parachutes too, then vanished in darkness, like ghosts always do.
Speaker 3 (01:22):
He said this same game, and there's.
Speaker 1 (01:25):
A bomb in this case land in Seeatt'll do it quiet,
no shakes. He asked for some cash and for parachutes too,
then vanished in darkness like ghosts always do. Two hundred
grand in a knapsack type. He stepped from the stairs
(01:46):
and was gone in the night. Nobody, no answers, no
trail to be found, just myths. Him Pinezos with fade
in his hands. Was he a soldier or roag or
a man on the run, a master illusion or just
(02:08):
chasing fun? If we I hunted but never could see
the face of the outlaw who dropped from the breed.
He said, this same brain, there's a bomb in this
case landed Seattle, Do quiet, no chase?
Speaker 3 (02:28):
Did you live free?
Speaker 1 (02:31):
Still below the clouds of the North where the lost
legends go. Some say he made it and lives with
a name.
Speaker 3 (02:45):
Some say he.
Speaker 1 (02:46):
Perished and vanished in rain. But Lisa remembers the Clinton,
his eye, the secret.
Speaker 2 (02:55):
Carrying the man who at blood.
Speaker 1 (02:59):
Now decades have passed, but the tail still remains of
a man with a purpose who slipped through the chains.
No finger prints left, no story complete, just and goes
of boots in the Hargh mountainous sleep. Now decades have passed,
(03:19):
but the tail still remains of a man and the
purpose who slipped through the chains. No finger prints left,
no story complete, Just that goes of boots in the
high Mountain sleep. Now decades have passed, but the tail
(03:42):
still remains of a man with a purpose who slipped
through the chain. No fingerprints left, no story clean into
(04:03):
the arms of the Secrets Week.
Speaker 4 (04:09):
Welcome to the Xon. I'm Rob McConnell. For the next
two two hours. How's that so Friday night? I want
to share with you for a couple of hours here
from our broadcast center and studios in Saint Catharine's, Ontario, Canada,
which means we're on tonight from ten pm until midnight.
If you'd like to send me an email, exonredex, onradiotv
dot com, on all social media sites, xone Radio TV,
(04:31):
and we're coming to you tonight around the world on
the Talk Star Radio Network, Mutual Broadcast Network, xone Broadcast Network,
and your hometown radio twelve twenty that's Classic twelve twenty
c FAJAM in St. Catherines, Ontario, streaming us on Classic
twelve twenty dot CA. All right, tonight on the xone
Radio Show. This first hour, we dive into one of
(04:51):
the most enduring unsolved American mysteries in American history, that
is the nineteen seventy one hijacking of Northwest one one
Flight three five by the mysterious figure known only as
D B. Cooper. But tonight we're just not going to
reconstruct the tale. We're actually speaking to someone who has
a very personal connection to the legend. Joining us is
(05:14):
Lisa's story. The niece of the men, she says, was
d V. Cooper. Could she hold the missing link to
one of the FBI's most baffling cases. Let's find out.
Extonation Lisa, welcome back to the exone.
Speaker 5 (05:26):
Hi, thanks Ron, and I love the note the song intro.
I hit all the high notes of the crime.
Speaker 4 (05:33):
Yeah, we'll send a copy of it to you. Yeah,
all right, Lisa, can you start by telling our audience
that has grown substantially since you were last with us,
who your uncle was and how you first came to
believe he was dB Cooper.
Speaker 5 (05:50):
Right, So, my uncle's name was Walter Recca, and he
had been you know, Special Forces Army Airborne Air Force
Pair Rescue Hermie intelligence and had applied to the CIA
but was denied because while he was going through the
background check and this is during the time in the
(06:11):
sixties where you know, we were in the height of
the Cold War, and he spoke oh yeah, Polish and Russian, right,
So he took the Army intelligence test. But in the
meantime he also was a bit of a hothead. He
was very brave and very patriotic, but.
Speaker 6 (06:25):
He was a hothead.
Speaker 5 (06:26):
So he shot up somebody's car when they went move
it and he was rejected. Right, So I knew about
some of his crimes, and you know family folklore that
he had robbed Bob's Big Boy and shared some of
the money with the pretty young lady who was the manager.
And of course STEVIEE. Cooper did the same thing. So
(06:49):
we had heard for years about you know. When we
would visit, he would tell us stories about some of
his diamond mine escapades and know a little bit about
his military service things he was very proud of that
he had gotten commendations for. But he never mentioned this
particular crime or anything else. But he had been meeting
(07:14):
up with some of his former paratroopers and Michigan Parachute
team friends and around nineteen ninety nine two thousand on
an annual basis, and they started sharing stories.
Speaker 6 (07:25):
With each other.
Speaker 5 (07:26):
They'd get together for the weekend, and one of his
friends had been convinced since the night of the hijacking
that Walt was the hijacker, and in fact, at the
time he didn't know Walt was living in Washington working
for a company that had a lot of paramilitary contracts
with the CIA, so he thought it might be Walt
(07:47):
because Walt for years had talked about it's stupid to
rob a bank and then asked for a car to
the air airport and then an airplane to go out
of the country. Just rob the airplane and jump out
of it.
Speaker 4 (07:58):
That made sense.
Speaker 6 (07:59):
So he had talked about.
Speaker 5 (08:00):
Yeah, right, you know, you kind of cut down the
middle man.
Speaker 6 (08:03):
So he had talked about that for years.
Speaker 5 (08:05):
So when it happened, a couple of their other Michigan
parachute friends called up Carl and said, what.
Speaker 6 (08:10):
Did Pika do?
Speaker 2 (08:11):
Now?
Speaker 6 (08:11):
Well, his original name was Pica, so he.
Speaker 5 (08:15):
But they thought it was him when they started meeting
up again. His buddy Carl just kept pressing him, saying,
you're dB Cooper, You're dB Cooper, and he's like, I'm not,
I'm not. But after a couple of years, Walt nearly
died of an illness, and then he told Carl, look,
I want to tell you everything because I don't want
to I don't want to lie to you, but also
(08:36):
I think somebody should know. And so then he started
sharing information and Carl talked to him for quite some
time and did several drafts of the book, and Carl
sent me those manuscripts. Carl and I had gotten to
know each other. He became like an uncle to me
as well, and he sent me one of the manuscripts
and hint it talked about the DBI Cooper hijacking, and
(08:59):
so Walt knew Carl and I were talking about it,
but every time we'd visit, I'd ask Walt about it
and he would deny it until about twenty eleven, when
a woman named Marla Cooper made national news saying that
her uncle was d. B. Cooper. And my uncle thought
it was ridiculous her story, and so he sent me
a photocopy of her the article quoting her and said
(09:21):
that would make Marla six years old a real live
Nancy Drew. And then on the side he wrote, you'd
be really proud of Uncle Walton why they never found fingerprints,
And then there was another note on there about the
tie coming from a thrift store. So this was twenty eleven.
He had been talking to Carl, and Carl had been
telling me about it and talking to me since two
(09:43):
thousand and eight, two thousand and nine, and they had
recorded their conversations in two thousand and eight two thousand
and nine. A lot of the information and that recording
was not public knowledge. Most people didn't know it, and
even some of the books hadn't covered this information until
they were released. The interviews with the crew were released
in twenty twelve, so then I really started to think, Wow,
(10:06):
this could be him. He had absolutely done quite a
few crazy things in his life, so it made sense.
And then his buddy Carl actually tracked down an eyewitness,
which was really interesting.
Speaker 4 (10:20):
What kind of man was her uncle? Was he like?
Was he, well, he must have been adventurous since he was,
you know, doing all these things, you know, for the government.
What was he like? Was he a kind of guy
you could crawl upon his knee and tell him your problems.
Was he a great family man?
Speaker 5 (10:44):
No, He's probably not somebody who would give you a
shoulder to cry on, but he would be somebody'd help
you hide.
Speaker 6 (10:50):
A body if he needed to do that.
Speaker 2 (10:52):
Jeez.
Speaker 5 (10:52):
Right, I mean he was a good friend, and he
loved his friends, and he was very loyal to them,
and they were very low to him. He grew up very,
very poor in Detroit, in an area called the Cast Corridor,
and he went to Julie Hall when he was nine
and met a guy named Willard who ended up being
(11:13):
his friend until they both died in their eighties. Right,
I mean, he was that kind of friend you made
a friend for life with him. He quit school, dropped
out of school. His dad died when he was pretty young,
and he dropped out at eighth grade.
Speaker 6 (11:30):
So he was.
Speaker 5 (11:31):
Very intelligent and he read a lot, but he was
not well educated.
Speaker 4 (11:36):
Right.
Speaker 5 (11:37):
So my mom always said Walt could always get jobs,
but he never liked the jobs he got, and he
got he got into some trouble as a juvenile, and
judge told him to join the military or go to jail,
and he didn't want to go to jail, so he
joined the Army paratroopers and from then on he had
really joined and re enlisted several times. In fact, he
(11:59):
was quite paydotic, and he joined the Air Force Pair
of Rescue, which was a very special forces. They drop
in behind enemy lines and rescue down to pilots and
you know, bring either them back their body back or
help them escape alive if they can. But he had
(12:19):
written on the bottom, I am not a conscious objector right,
because they're talking the nineteen sixties when a lot of
people didn't want to serve, so he would volunteer for
service and you know, was quite patriotic.
Speaker 4 (12:33):
Did Hey, Lisa, I hate to notice to you, but
we've got to take a break right now and dex
O Nation Lisa stories are very special guests. So this
is the story of D. B. Cooper from his niece.
We'll be back on the other side of this break ass.
The xone continues with he is truly Rob McConnell from
our broadcast center and studios in Saint Catherine's, Ontario, Canada,
and you're listening to us on your hometown radio Classic
(12:56):
twelve twenty CFAJAM in Saint Catherine's, Ontario, Canada, streaming us
at twelve twenty dot Classic twelve twenty dot CA.
Speaker 1 (13:07):
With the briefcase of secrets and a bourbon in hand,
he passed a note softly. The hijack began. He said
this saying a game. There's a bomb in this case
(13:30):
Land in Seattle'll do it quiet, no chase. He asked
for some cash, she for parachutes too, then vanished in
darkness like ghosts always do.
Speaker 3 (13:43):
He said this same game, there's.
Speaker 1 (13:46):
A bomb in this case Land in Seattle'll do it quiet,
no shakes. He asked for some cash and for parachutes too,
then vanished in darkness like ghosts.
Speaker 3 (14:16):
In the twilight hush where.
Speaker 7 (14:21):
Shadows whisper below, a silver gleamm streaks across the sky,
a glow with a haunting helloady. The air begins to throw.
Speaker 3 (14:42):
An echo of the wonders that from.
Speaker 8 (14:47):
Beyond t come celestial encount as the stars.
Speaker 4 (14:54):
Welcome back to the excell least the stories, my special guest,
and we're talking about her uncle, the infamous Stevie Cooper. Sorry,
we had to cut you a short to Lisa because
of the break, but please continue.
Speaker 6 (15:07):
Sure.
Speaker 5 (15:07):
So, I think one thing though that we were talking
about when because Walt grew up poor and dropped out
of school, he had trouble getting good paying jobs and
keeping them.
Speaker 6 (15:17):
So he took shortcuts.
Speaker 5 (15:18):
And you know, he always considered himself a Robin Hood
kind of character.
Speaker 6 (15:23):
He tried to rob.
Speaker 5 (15:25):
From people who had money and share it with other people,
so it made him feel better about himself. But he
certainly had a Doctor Jekyll and mister Hyde kind of persona.
And you know, he always said that he could you know,
he was very nice and personable, and he had good
friends and he could converse with him and laugh. But
when it came to doing something like you know, whether
(15:47):
it was in service of his country or in a crime.
He would be cold, you know, steel cold, and it was.
He always said it was two personalities he could divorce.
Speaker 6 (16:00):
The words he used.
Speaker 5 (16:00):
Were divorced one personality from the other. So I think
that that's probably true of a lot of people who
maybe you know, go commit something horrible and then you know,
go on with their life and pretend it never happened.
So he had that side to.
Speaker 4 (16:16):
Him as well. Did he ever talk to you about
his time in Vietnam.
Speaker 5 (16:22):
He didn't serve in Vietnam. He served in Korea. He
was a little bit too old for Vietnam. He did,
he served, but he was mostly in Germany, stationed in
Germany because he's quite young. He was seventeen when he
was recruited or joined, and then he was mostly after
(16:43):
four years in Germany. His service in the US was based.
Speaker 6 (16:47):
In the US.
Speaker 5 (16:49):
However, he did volunteer and go. He was part of
the Berlin Crisis and was on overseas for a month
or six weeks and was on site in case one
of our airmen were shot down. He was on the
rescue squad.
Speaker 4 (17:09):
Oh when dbe Cooper passed away, did he ever admit
to you or anyone in your family, I mean blood
family that he in fact was Dbe Cooper.
Speaker 5 (17:23):
He did so besides the Marla Cooper letter, you know
where he kind of hinted to it. I would keep
asking him and he would deny it. And then in
August twenty thirteen, he was really six. So Mom and
I went out and he was like, pack up these things,
take these files. And he had me go get an
(17:43):
envelope that was on a secret compartment behind his desk,
and he said, if you don't want those, send them.
Speaker 6 (17:50):
To Carl, but otherwise they should really.
Speaker 5 (17:51):
Stay in the family. And I didn't really look in
the envelope, and he had me go look at He
made me pack up a bunch of files with information
that to really help me tell his story. But he
also had me get an envelope and he said, can
you go get that notarized in town. I'll sign it.
Speaker 6 (18:09):
You go get it notarized.
Speaker 5 (18:10):
And I'm like, well, that's not how it works, right,
So you have to be there, and he goes, I
don't know if I can make it to town. I said, well,
he goes, read it and tell me what you think.
So I start reading it and through their conversations Carl
had typed up like a twelve page, fourteen page confession
about I am dB Cooper, and it had the cover
(18:30):
page where all the names he went by. He had
a Canadian social Security number I don't know why, he
had a Saudi Arabian social security number, and he had
two or three US social Security numbers, and then one
of the names was I have also gone by DBI
Cooper Dan Cooper. And then the story, you know, the
(18:50):
confession had the whole outline that this is what I did,
this is how I did it, this is the person
I met the night of the hijacking who gave my
friend Don Brennan directions home, you know, to the where
I was, and then helped me get home. So that
and so then I started talking to him.
Speaker 6 (19:09):
I said, this is true. You're Dbie Cooper.
Speaker 5 (19:12):
And he said yes, And I'm like, why tell me
now and he said because I'm dying. And I said,
you'd been saying that for years and he goes, I
mean it this time.
Speaker 6 (19:19):
And so we had this whole.
Speaker 5 (19:21):
Conversation and I asked him, I said, you know, aren't.
Speaker 6 (19:24):
You proud of your stuff? You got away with.
Speaker 5 (19:27):
Like the most one of the most infamous crimes in
our country. And he thought furious, and he said, I
didn't get away with nothing, and he said, I was identified,
I was recruited for work overseas, and I did things
that I figure I'm going to hell for. Like he
just he assumed he didn't think the hijacking was a
(19:48):
big deal.
Speaker 6 (19:48):
He didn't.
Speaker 5 (19:49):
He was very calm, He was very polite to everybody.
He didn't hurt anybody. The insurance the way he said
it was, you know, the insurance company paid the RAM
and they had gotten paid over the years from Northwest
Airlines for events like this.
Speaker 6 (20:05):
So it was just a service.
Speaker 5 (20:07):
And I you know, he didn't really think about the
mental anguish he caused anybody, right, So, but what he
said was what happened afterwards was far worse than the hijacking.
And he didn't he didn't want me to think of
him as.
Speaker 6 (20:22):
A hero or a folk hero. He thought that he.
Speaker 5 (20:25):
Had done some pretty bad things, but the hijacking in particular.
I asked him why he did it, and he said,
because he was so destitute by that point, he just
thought he was better dead than poor.
Speaker 4 (20:36):
I'm real, listen, if I'm not mistaken that that affidavit
or the article that was why your uncle wanted to
get notarized, that include the confession. Was that confession ever
given to the FBI?
Speaker 5 (20:53):
It was so and it's so funny is that Today's
the day. I just got an email from the FBI
agent who sent it to the Portland FBI agent and
she's like, how are you doing? Did anything ever come
of your story and of you know, your your uncle's case,
and it's and I haven't responded yet. So I had
(21:15):
my mom and I we had a next door neighbor
and she was one of the first female FBI agents
in the country years ago, and she had come back
to town. She had moved away and she was undercover.
She had moved away, and she came back and Mom
and I had dinner with her. Oh my goodness.
Speaker 6 (21:34):
It was probably like.
Speaker 5 (21:37):
Two years after my uncle died, in about a month
or two before or after the FBI closed the case.
And we told her everything. We showed her his US
Foreign Service IDs KGB I d he had. We showed
her everything and told her the whole story. And I
asked if she could submit his confession to the FBI,
(22:00):
and she said, sure, I can send it and she was,
I'm retired now, but it is professional courtesy for one
agent to you know, take seriously another agent's tip. So
she emailed the FBI agent in Portland and said, here
is a confession of somebody, a relative of a friend
(22:20):
of mine. They are normal people, They are not crazy,
you know, she kind of, I mean, I'm paraphrasing what
she said. She goes, can you please look at this?
They'd really, you know, they would just like you to
look at it and see what you think. He sent
it back on read and said they would close the case,
or they were going to close the case, and unless
I could produce or my mom could produce one of
(22:41):
the twenty dollars bills or the parachute, he didn't want
to read it or hear about it. And we just
she thought that was very odd. She said, it's just
professional courtesy that you take another agent's input and give
it at least a cursory look. And so, yeah, so
they ignored it. There was another time too that Carl
(23:05):
had snuck some tissues from Walt and had them had
DNA done on them, Yeah, without Walt's knowledge, and he
went to an attorney where he lived in Florida, and
he didn't tell the attorney Walt's name, and he didn't
tell him, you know, the name of the accomplice who
(23:26):
picked Walts up that night, who was quite a character,
and who the FBI interviewed as a suspect.
Speaker 6 (23:32):
But he just he.
Speaker 5 (23:33):
Said, you know, here's this. He did the DNA report himself.
He didn't send the tissues in right, so I don't
know where he got the DNA done. And the attorney
sent it to the FBI in Portland and said, you know,
here's the story. Here is the the DNA sequence. And
(23:55):
the Portland agent said it doesn't match. But who was
the name? What was the name of the person who
picked him up up? And Carl always thought that was
really weird because if you don't think it's the hijacker,
why would you want to know who picked him up.
But what was also interesting was that while we were
waiting for the or while Carl was waiting for the
(24:16):
FBI to respond to his attorney, Walt called him up
and said, I can't believe you dna'ed me.
Speaker 6 (24:23):
What are you thinking?
Speaker 5 (24:25):
And Carl had never told Walt, but he had a
contact in the FBI that gave him the heads up
before his houses rated for another issue. And you know,
after the hijacking, he was on the radar, so they
kept tabs on him. I'm not sure that's how much
the FBI knew he was involved. I think it was
(24:46):
more his intelligence work that happened afterwards.
Speaker 4 (24:49):
Wow.
Speaker 5 (24:50):
So yeah, so we tried to notify the FBI. The
weren't interested and the one time. The other thing about
what we're not sure about is according to the articles
we bread and the FBI documents, they don't have full
strands of DNA. They only have partial strands from three
different individuals. And when the hijacking happened, and they they
(25:13):
got rid of these cigarette butts that had sliva on it,
and they never tested for blood type, even though they
could have done that back then.
Speaker 6 (25:20):
So they got rid of that with the.
Speaker 5 (25:21):
Best DNA and they just kept They got some DNA
off the tie, the clip on tie, but partial DNA.
And by the time they sent it in and it
was almost I think thirty years old, and it hadn't
been stored. I don't know if it was stored in
a refrigerator, I doubt it. I don't think the tie
was stored in a refrigerator, so we don't even know
if they actually have valid DNA to you know, find
(25:46):
any suspect, you know, tied to any suspect.
Speaker 4 (25:49):
With the fact that there was currency involved, couldn't the
OUs Treasury Department get involved? They're part of the Secret
Service and all the other aspects of the investmentation because
the money was involved, and you had pretty good evidence
that you knew who the suspect was and that they
could actually close the case.
Speaker 5 (26:09):
You know, I didn't really think about reaching out to
the Secret Service, but I think I've done a lot
of Freedom of Information Act request, you know, especially too.
I'll give you an example.
Speaker 6 (26:21):
He's got this qgb ID.
Speaker 4 (26:23):
All right, why don't we do this? Why don't we
Why don't we do this? So I just looked at
the clock. I've had about thirty seconds before I have
to take a break, So let's continue this on the
other side. Fascinating conversation with the niece of the infamous
dB Cooper. This is the x O and I'm Rob McConnell.
We're coming to you from our broadcast center in studios
(26:43):
in Saint Catherine's, Ontario, Canada, and you're listening to us
on the Talk Star Radio Network, Mutual Broadcast Network, x
oone Broadcast Network, and your hometown Radio Classic twelve twenty
c FAJ Right here in St. Catherine's, Ontario, Canada. They
stream us in twenty four to threes, twenty five, three,
twenty six. Whatever, Well, they don't stream us, they eat.
(27:05):
They stream their entire wonderful musical all day programming. We'll
be back on the other side. Whatever you do, don't
go away.
Speaker 7 (27:17):
With a haunting helloady. The air begins to throw.
Speaker 3 (27:25):
An echo the wonders that from beyond have come.
Speaker 8 (27:33):
Celestial encounter as the stars of the line, a tapestry
of wonders woven through space and time from the void
of darkness, A chorus six so bright.
Speaker 3 (27:49):
The story is unfolding in the velvet night through the
gus of science.
Speaker 4 (28:24):
Welcome back every when Lisa Story's my special guest, and
we're talking this hour, Well, we're kind of diving into
one of the most enduring and solved mysteries in American history,
the nineteen seventy one hijacking of Northwest Oriyan Flight three
zero five by the mysterious figure known only as d V. Cooper.
(28:44):
But tonight we're just not recounting the tale exaanation. We're
speaking with someone who has a personal connection to the legend.
Joining us now is Lisa's story, the niece of the
man she says was d V.
Speaker 2 (28:56):
Cooper. Could she hold the.
Speaker 4 (28:59):
Missing link to the FBI's most baffling cases. Well, it
seems that she has the entire story, including a confession,
but the FBI doesn't want to know anything about it
because they just want close the case. Who knows more?
All right, Lisa, what was it when you found out
that the FBI were saying that's it, no matter what
(29:21):
you've got, we're closing in the case.
Speaker 5 (29:25):
I think I decided that I just do my own
research and go through the files and it. I guess
it just was disappointing. But at the same time, would
they even be able to even if they believed his story,
would there ever be enough hard evidence to physically tie
(29:46):
it to him that. I don't think the FBI was
aware he was Cooper. I think that intelligence agencies knew
because I think that's how.
Speaker 4 (29:57):
He was recruited.
Speaker 5 (29:59):
You know, at the time of the hijacking, he was
working for a company named Vanell that was had CIA contracts,
but they were working on the construction of the third
Powerhouse on the Grand Cooley Dam in Washington, and it
was they were hiring special forces guys like my uncle.
And my uncle had met the recruiter, the CIA recruiter
(30:22):
Phil and kept in contact with him and still got
him the job at Vnell. And he told them just
hold tight, just keep working. We're working on these contracts
in the Middle East. But it was taking a couple
of years to get through the right process, right. But
Vanell had special forces people. And this is one of
(30:42):
the things my uncle did in the Middle East is
they trained the Saudi Arabian National Guard.
Speaker 6 (30:47):
They were also they protected.
Speaker 5 (30:50):
The oil fields in Saudi and they also did things
like respond to the Grand Mosque and Mecca siege. And
my uncle said he was there as part of the
Nell crew, and that's kind of a whole other story.
But anyway, he was working for Vanel And I'm just
going to get sidetracked and excited.
Speaker 6 (31:13):
About this story.
Speaker 5 (31:13):
But anyway, and I'm sorry I lost my turney that
thought what we were talking about, the.
Speaker 4 (31:21):
How he got you got me so involved in the
story you were telling that I forgot about. My question
was hold on?
Speaker 5 (31:31):
I can't remember we get off on these side.
Speaker 4 (31:35):
Yeah, I think we were talking about shifting the investigation
from one jurisdiction to another because of all the you know,
all the all the case file that you had, You
had his confession, and yet the FBI didn't want to
do anything about it, right.
Speaker 5 (31:49):
Okay, So that's where I was going with the Vanell
story in the CIA contract.
Speaker 6 (31:53):
So what what Walt.
Speaker 5 (31:55):
Said happened is, you know, he limped into a cafe
with a broken leg. He was soaking wet, He had
a pat you know, his raincoat wrapped around something under
his arm, and there was a guy dressed in cowboy
gear and had a guitar, and he said, hey, kid,
can you if I call my friend, can you give
him directions to where I am? And the guy said yeah,
(32:17):
and so his friend Don Brennan picked him up. And
Don also had CIA connections. Just a couple of years
before Don was working, he was a smoke jumper and
he and several other smoke jumpers were in Thailand on
a CIA operation. Right And in fact, I think it
was Don and one of his other friends that told
my uncle about the CIA recruitment process in Elsinore, California,
(32:42):
which is how he met Phil, how he got the
job with nnel So a couple months or four months
after the hijacking. Walt had been destitute poor. Just eighteen
months before he had been evicted from a trailer because
he couldn't afford sixty dollars a month rent, right, and
now he paid cash for a down payment on a
(33:02):
house and cash for the payments, which the guy who
sold him the house went on video and you talked
about his impressions and how polite he was and how
he paid cash and had no problem, and he paid
the house off in five years, going from super boor
to all of a sudden, even when he still didn't
have a regular job. So he was on a job
site and a couple iron workers came up to him
(33:24):
and said, hey, do you want to go have a
beer and talk. We're new here, and my uncle said sure.
He never turned down a free beer. So they went
to dinner and the guy is leaned forward and said,
we know what you did. Do you want to go
to jail and he said no, he goes, well, then
you work for us and we will call you and
they just laughed, right, And it's kind of similar to
(33:47):
you know.
Speaker 6 (33:48):
How you see these.
Speaker 5 (33:49):
Things happen in movies. It was very similar to that.
And then they called him a couple of weeks later
and he started going to Idaho for training. A lot
of it was psychological and that type of thing, because
he had the military training, he didn't need that, and
he had the weapons training so and he had the
parachute jump and.
Speaker 6 (34:09):
All of that type of stuff.
Speaker 5 (34:11):
So after that he was he started working overseas. So
I think where the shifting investigation goes is. I don't
think the FBI ever identified him, but they think they did.
The whatever intelligence units. He was working for, CIA contractors.
Speaker 6 (34:30):
All of that.
Speaker 5 (34:30):
He did quite a few jobs overseas, so I think
they knew he was a hijacker. That's why they approached him,
or somebody in Vanell figured it out and they recruited
him through the CIA. The vice president of Vanel was
a former CIA officer and OSS officer. And then it's
(34:50):
just you know, Don Brennan picked him up. He was
a smoke jumper who worked for the CIA. One of
whilst other good friends, Bob Sinclair, was in business with
a guy named Jim Hall who was CIA and Dave
Bert who was interviewed by the FBI as a suspect
and also was a smoke jumper. And then there was
a guy that Bob Sinclair was friends with and in
(35:12):
business with named Lyle Cameron. And Lyle was an FBI
informant who contacted the FBI after the hijacking and said
he met a guy in Elson Or a few months
before the hy jackiing who asked about can you jump
out of the commercial airliner? And he said, sure if
there's a side door that opens in or rear stairs.
(35:33):
But the really interesting thing about Lyle is that he
was the last person Jack Ruby spoke to on the
telephone before Jack Ruby shot Lee Harvey else.
Speaker 4 (35:44):
So wait, wait a second, Wait a second, a second year,
wait a second year. Are you tying in the the
hijacking by DV Cooper into the Kennedy assassination somehow?
Speaker 5 (35:58):
No, what I'm saying is he had these associations with
all of these people who also had CIA or FBI informed,
you know what I mean, Like he was involved and
hung with people that had all kinds of one step
away that I can have. I have heart sure involvement
(36:19):
in these other things, right Art Lucier was one of
his best friends in Michigan Parachute team members. Eight months
after the hijacking, Art was arrested with a guy named
Barry Seal and a Gambino family ever wrote the cost
of Yeah, so they Barry Seal was made famous by
(36:41):
Tom Cruise and that movie American Maid from the Iran
Contrast Scandal. But Art was with Barry when they were
trying on a CIA plot to overthrow Castro and get
explosives to people who were going to try to overthrow Castro.
His other guy, Ken Sissler, was a smoke jumper. Walt
jumped with them several times of newspaper articles with their
(37:03):
names together and stuff. He was CIA ops and Vietnam.
He did mac V. He was in a mac V
Saggi in it with a guy named Ted Brayden, who
a lot of people right now in the dB Cooper worldlike.
Speaker 6 (37:15):
Is a suspect.
Speaker 5 (37:17):
But quite a few of these people from Don Dave
fred Bernowski, these smoke jumpers were all interviewed within days
of the hijacking as suspects. And so I think it's
just so weird if you had one association with the CIA,
but to have eight or nine people that you know personally.
Speaker 6 (37:39):
Involved.
Speaker 5 (37:40):
It just I think makes his story more realistic, besides
the fact that I do have US Foreign Service identifications
for him that are legitimate. I mean I researched and
made sure the names of the people who signed them
were in office at that time. And I have his
letter from the CIA telling him, thank you for your application,
(38:02):
we can't use your skills right now. So I have
a heart evidence in addition to the things that he
told me.
Speaker 4 (38:08):
And he told Karl, Okay, you've got the letter of
rejection by the CIA. But if he had been recruited
at a later place in time for the CIA, wouldn't
there be documentation to that as well?
Speaker 6 (38:27):
Well?
Speaker 5 (38:28):
He wasn't recruited as an agent, he or as an asset, right,
so he was a contractor, he wasn't he He had
applied to try to become, you know, to work for them,
or maybe it was one of the crews that worked,
you know, in Thailand for the CIA on some of
those opts. But he didn't get recruited officially. But they
(38:52):
did use a lot I mean during that timeframe, and
there's tons of books. I mean, I referenced it in
my book the different newspaper articles and books where it
talks about how the CIA used you know, third party
contractors because they could hide what they were doing from
Congress that way.
Speaker 4 (39:10):
Plus they're disposable, they're disposable, and you know, one of
the that's such a good point because when.
Speaker 5 (39:18):
Well retired, he had all of these names on his resume,
and he had all of these identifications and did all
of this work and put his life on the line.
But there was no pension, right because you work for
every country a company for like one year or that's
your cover, and you do these things and you.
Speaker 6 (39:36):
Get paid cash.
Speaker 5 (39:37):
And he got paid a lot of money, and he
did invest some of it.
Speaker 6 (39:40):
But you have no.
Speaker 5 (39:41):
Pension, you can't.
Speaker 6 (39:43):
You just have your regular Social Security checked.
Speaker 2 (39:45):
That's it.
Speaker 4 (39:46):
I don't much. And I'll bet you their medical wasn't
covered after they left the service either.
Speaker 5 (39:52):
Now, well, he because he had he did have veterans
and oh yeah, yeah, because he had served officially in
the military service.
Speaker 4 (40:05):
But yeah, fascinating story. We've got one more segment. I'd
love to get a lot more information out and I
want to thank you again for coming on the show.
It's all it's a great pleasure having you with us.
Speaker 5 (40:17):
Lisa, Yeah, thank you so much.
Speaker 4 (40:20):
All right, excellanation. If you'd like to find out more
about Lisa dB Cooper, what is your Facebook page, Lisa.
Speaker 6 (40:28):
It's dB Cooper Story sto.
Speaker 4 (40:30):
Ry all one word, Yes, pretty much.
Speaker 5 (40:36):
And I also had that book Better than then pour
out on Amazon that you know, kind of outlines all
of this stuff with a lot of extensive footnotes.
Speaker 4 (40:47):
All right, Lisa and I will be back on the
other side of this very short break, and coming up
after Lisa and I say so long in about fifteen
minutes from now. Our number two of the X one
starts for tonight and goes in right from eleven o'clock
until midnight. All right, excellentation. Thesis story is my guest.
(41:11):
We're talking about her uncle, the infamous D V. Cooper.
We'll be back on the other side of this break
as we take another look at different ways of looking
at this case. But I'll tell you something, I believe her.
We'll be back.
Speaker 2 (41:26):
Don't go away.
Speaker 9 (42:10):
Some days I walk, some days I crawl. Some days
I can't feel much at all.
Speaker 1 (42:23):
My body's amaze that I try to read every step
forward a silent me. But I won't let this break
who I am. I've learned how to fight, learn how
(42:46):
to stand. I may fall, stilverise through the pain, through.
Speaker 4 (42:57):
The tears in myn.
Speaker 3 (43:01):
This road is long, but is here.
Speaker 2 (43:06):
It's read.
Speaker 3 (43:08):
With every sun.
Speaker 1 (43:11):
I liveded fine.
Speaker 2 (43:17):
But what a.
Speaker 4 (43:20):
Welcome back everyone. Lisa's story is my very special guest
this hour. We're talking about her uncle, the infamous D. B.
Speaker 2 (43:27):
Cooper.
Speaker 4 (43:31):
Since you've come out with your story, how does the
mainstream media taking you? Are they supporting your story? Are
they trying to press law enforcement to find out how
can they drop the case or.
Speaker 6 (43:45):
No?
Speaker 5 (43:45):
I think, you know, when it first came out and
we Carl published his book and the documentary that came
out like in twenty sixteen, it did make national news,
but from then we just really didn't put you know,
I think we just let it. It made national news,
but then you have these The FBI never came out.
(44:07):
We haven't really pursued or looked at other ways to
have him looked at officially, and I think we just
let it go. You know, Mom said, it's probably just
best that nobody knows anyway, right, and just best nobody
thinks it's him and so and I think in the forums,
(44:28):
like there are a lot of different groups on Facebook
and Reddit and different places, they discount his story because
when Carl Carl interviewed him and had the recording, when
they were coming out with a documentary, the producer of
that documentary hired a former Michigan State Police officer who
(44:51):
had a private investigation firm. He's trained by the FBI
in forensic linguistics, which is telling whether or not people
are telling the truth or lying. And so he went
through the recordings and the printed confession, the written confession.
He talked to Carl, he talked to me, he talked
to the eyewitness, Jeff o'ciotage, and he determined that all
(45:13):
of us were being truthful and honest. Now just because
like my uncle was being truthful, he was recalling things
forty forty five years later, his memories weren't precise.
Speaker 6 (45:28):
What he said is that.
Speaker 5 (45:30):
He remembered certain things, but other things he just didn't
pay attention to it. Like in the dB Cooper Sleuth World,
Amateur Sleuth World, they're talking about, you know, what grain
of shoe, like what grain were his shoes? And did
the eyewitness remember that? And I just think when you're
talking about I can't. If you asked me about the
(45:52):
birth of my daughters. Those were the most important events
in my life, and I could tell you certain things
I remember. I remember certain pain, like I remember hearing
a woman screamed down the hallway when I started and
thinking no, what I went And then later I was like, oh, man,
that lady had something.
Speaker 6 (46:09):
She had you.
Speaker 4 (46:09):
Know, she knew what was going on, right, Yes she did.
Speaker 5 (46:12):
But if you asked me, yeah, right. But if you
asked me other details, I don't remember them. I was
in an extreme state of dress, you know, because both
you know, especially my first one, wasn't there, you know,
a problem. So I think that they expect, you know,
when they read well. When Joe Kennigg's wife transcribed the
(46:38):
recordings and then he wrote his notes of where people
are being truthful and not truthful With Carl and Walt,
there were a couple spots where Carl and Walt were
talking about, you know, what would you have done if
there was no rear door because that was really convenient,
And Carl alson, did you choose the plane for that reason?
And he said, no, I just whatever they sold me
the ticket for, which is what the Northwest Airlines ticket
(47:02):
agent said is he just asked for a flight to.
Speaker 6 (47:06):
Seattle.
Speaker 5 (47:06):
He didn't ask what kind of plane it was, and
that information was not public knowledge.
Speaker 4 (47:11):
So but it certainly is now you can find out the.
Speaker 5 (47:17):
Exacty that is now right, right, But back then you couldn't. Right.
And so they're they're having this conversation and Carl said, well,
what would you have done had there been no rear door?
And Walt said, and I heard it on the recording.
I played it over and over again. He said, I
would have gone out the side door. But the way
(47:38):
it was transcribed in the book is I went out
the side door. Well, even in the context of that conversation,
he didn't say he went out the side the side door.
What he was saying is that's where he would have
gone out. So then what you have in these groups
that are just like, well, it can't be him. Now
they believe Jeff o'ciotage. He's turned out, like a lot
(47:59):
of people come forward and said he is a very
honest person. And he was the truck driver who was
playing in Cowboy band, a country band that night. He
remembered that night because it was odd and he told
his family about it. They all said, oh, yeah, well,
we remember when he told us he met this stranger
soaking wet, beat red in the bar with his coat.
(48:21):
But he was soaking wet, but he wasn't wearing his
coat and was wrapped around something and he didn't know
where he was. So he remembered that, and they remember
that Walt remembered certain details about that and how he
got home. And that's howl Carl was a pilot, so
he looked at different flight paths. Well, in the amateur
sleuth world, the fact that you know, they're just picking
(48:44):
apart things that my uncle said or remembered or didn't remember, right,
and there are things that down the line, or there
are things he doesn't remember that they're like, oh, he
would have remembered that. That's a big deal. But the
flight pat the Air Force jets following Northwest Airlines lost
it almost immediately, and that's in the FBI memos, and
(49:07):
they asked for permission to tell the public that and
to tell, you know, go on a news story to
talk about that they were much faster than the flow
commercial jet right and the published flight path supposedly goes
right by Mount Saint Helens at that was about ten
thousand feet, which the plane was flying at ten thousand feet.
Speaker 6 (49:28):
So Carl had tracked what.
Speaker 5 (49:30):
A normal route to Reno would have been, and it
would have gone kind of east and then turns south
southeast at Ellensburg, near where Walt landed. He lent a
little north of that. But they're saying, well because the
flight path, the flight path is like set and stone,
but it's not. I talked to Captain Scott's daughter and
(49:53):
her fiance, and the fiance is a pilot. He said
they didn't really know where they were. North Airlines was
directing them and radar wasn't that good back then. So
it's funny like when they want certain facts to align
with their story or their suspect, you know, you have
to listen to what the FBI said, but when that
doesn't meet what they want to say, they're like, well,
(50:13):
ignore what the FBI said. So that's kind of it.
I mean, I don't think he's a popular suspect in
the dB.
Speaker 6 (50:20):
Cooper world, but it doesn't.
Speaker 5 (50:22):
Matter because I really do believe him. Yeah, and the
eye witness is and then you have Joe kenneg is
what the former lead investigator on the Jimmy Hoffa case.
You know, so this guy is not any slouch.
Speaker 4 (50:38):
Is it possible because of the work that your uncle
did for the CIA and other intelligence agencies, that the
FBI were told, because of his abilities and the missions
that he may have been on or are continuing on,
(50:59):
the FBI would have been told to shut the file down.
Speaker 5 (51:04):
I definitely think that's possible. And I actually found several
newspaper articles even from like the nineteen seventies, where the
FBI said, if we're looking into somebody and the CIA
tells us they're an asset, stop the investigation. We do.
So that's actually been printed as far back as the
(51:25):
nineteen seventies, nineteen eighties, so and I had found.
Speaker 6 (51:28):
A few of those articles. So yeah, I think.
Speaker 2 (51:30):
It's absolutely possible.
Speaker 4 (51:31):
Sort of why, especially with all the information that you have,
all the evidence of the interviews, That's the only reason
I can see, as a former police officer myself, for
an investigation being shut down.
Speaker 2 (51:48):
Right, yeah, right, So what's new?
Speaker 4 (51:51):
What do you go up to next? Are you doing
more lectures, more speaking, writing another book or two?
Speaker 5 (51:58):
I think my next. I spent over a years on
this book and really trying to like go through the
FBI files and go through my uncle's files and document
things so people don't think I'm just making stuff up,
that they see why I have pulled these lines together
and tell the story. But I think the next book
I write will be uh will.
Speaker 6 (52:20):
Be fiction, not because for fun, because this.
Speaker 5 (52:23):
Has been really intense. I've spent more than ten years
on this, and I think it's time for me to
have my own adventures and not write about my uncles anymore.
I think it's just time to move on. And I
just don't think anyone's cares. I don't think the authorities
care to identify who the real Gbie Cooper is. And
the only people who care, you know, unsolved mystery fans. Yes,
(52:47):
and they'll never believe anybody you know. You could there's
unless you could come up with the twenty dollars bill.
I don't think they'd believe it.
Speaker 6 (52:54):
Was the hijacker.
Speaker 4 (52:56):
There's a there's a point. Your uncle was a collector
of things. Why wouldn't he keep a couple of US
twenty dollars bills around us.
Speaker 5 (53:05):
Trophies because he didn't want to go to jail. I mean,
he was destitute and he needed money. He spent the money.
He put some of the money in the Canadian Bank
just north asumas that entry up there. People talk about
that he didn't brag.
Speaker 6 (53:27):
About this crime.
Speaker 5 (53:27):
He didn't brag about any of his crimes. Ever, he
didn't keep anything from any crime. The only thing he
kept from this one were the long John Zetti wore,
even though they never fit again. But that could never
really be tied to the crime. Right, if you keep
one of the twenties, even years later, you're going to jail.
And that's why I told him, don't sign the confession.
(53:50):
I don't care that you're sick and you're eighty. They'll
send you to jail for.
Speaker 6 (53:53):
The rest of your life.
Speaker 4 (53:54):
So the confession was never signed, right, that's good.
Speaker 5 (54:00):
Out of it now. My mom and I talked him
out of it.
Speaker 4 (54:02):
So so the FBI never did receive assigned confession from
your uncle.
Speaker 5 (54:11):
No, but there he's on recording, you know what I mean.
They have the recording of his.
Speaker 6 (54:15):
Voice as well.
Speaker 5 (54:16):
Talking about it.
Speaker 4 (54:19):
All right, let our listeners know what your face, Let
our listeners know what your Facebook pages. Pardon me, let
our listeners know how they can find you on Facebook.
Speaker 5 (54:32):
Oh, I'm sorry. I'm on Facebook on dB Cooper story
and I have a lot of the documents and photos
of my uncle and different letters and stuff like that
that they can see.
Speaker 6 (54:43):
So dB Cooper.
Speaker 4 (54:45):
Story, Lisa, I want to thank you again, always great
talking to you. Continued success, and I for one hope
one day there'll be a knock at the door and
they'll be the FBI saying you were right who dB
Cooper was. Take care of yourself, Lisa, Thank you. X
(55:06):
O Nation. Lise Astoria has been our guest. We've been
talking about the dB Cooper case. I'll be back on
the other side of this break as the X Zone
continues with Here is truly Rob McConnell from our broadcast
center and studios in Saint Catharine's, Ontario, Canada. You're listening
to us on the Talk Star Radio Network, Mutual Broadcast Network,
xone Broadcast Network, and on your hometown radio Classic twelve
(55:28):
twenty c f AJAM, and they stream us around the
world on Classic twelve twenty dot CA. We'll be back
with our two in a very short while. I mean
very short, maybe forty seconds, fifty seconds, I don't know,
but I guarantee you it'll be short,
Welcome to the exisode, a place where fact is fiction
and fiction is reality. Now here's your host, Robconnell.
Speaker 2 (00:29):
It was a.
Speaker 1 (00:29):
Cold November day, Flight three oh five took flight a
man in a suit in the cabin's low light, with
a briefcase of secrets and a bourbon in hand. He
(00:55):
passed a note softly. The hijack began. He said this,
saying a game. There's a bomb in this case land
in Seeatt'll do it quiet, no chase.
Speaker 2 (01:13):
He asked for some cash, she.
Speaker 1 (01:15):
For parachutes too, then vanished in darkness, like ghosts always do.
Speaker 3 (01:22):
He said this same game, and there's.
Speaker 1 (01:25):
A bomb in this case land in Seeatt'll do it quiet,
no shakes. He asked for some cash and for parachutes too,
then vanished in darkness like ghosts always do. Two hundred
grand in a knapsack type. He stepped from the stairs
(01:46):
and was gone in the night. Nobody, no answers, no
trail to be found, just myths. Him Pinezos with fade
in his hands. Was he a soldier or roag or
a man on the run, a master illusion or just
(02:08):
chasing fun? If we I hunted but never could see
the face of the outlaw who dropped from the breed.
He said, this same brain, there's a bomb in this
case landed Seattle, Do quiet, no chase?
Speaker 3 (02:28):
Did you live free?
Speaker 1 (02:31):
Still below the clouds of the North where the lost
legends go. Some say he made it and lives with
a name.
Speaker 3 (02:45):
Some say he.
Speaker 1 (02:46):
Perished and vanished in rain. But Lisa remembers the Clinton,
his eye, the secret.
Speaker 2 (02:55):
Carrying the man who at blood.
Speaker 1 (02:59):
Now decades have passed, but the tail still remains of
a man with a purpose who slipped through the chains.
No finger prints left, no story complete, just and goes
of boots in the Hargh mountainous sleep. Now decades have passed,
(03:19):
but the tail still remains of a man and the
purpose who slipped through the chains. No finger prints left,
no story complete, Just that goes of boots in the
high Mountain sleep. Now decades have passed, but the tail
(03:42):
still remains of a man with a purpose who slipped
through the chain. No fingerprints left, no story clean into
(04:03):
the arms of the Secrets Week.
Speaker 4 (04:09):
Welcome to the Xon. I'm Rob McConnell. For the next
two two hours. How's that so Friday night? I want
to share with you for a couple of hours here
from our broadcast center and studios in Saint Catharine's, Ontario, Canada,
which means we're on tonight from ten pm until midnight.
If you'd like to send me an email, exonredex, onradiotv
dot com, on all social media sites, xone Radio TV,
(04:31):
and we're coming to you tonight around the world on
the Talk Star Radio Network, Mutual Broadcast Network, xone Broadcast Network,
and your hometown radio twelve twenty that's Classic twelve twenty
c FAJAM in St. Catherines, Ontario, streaming us on Classic
twelve twenty dot CA. All right, tonight on the xone
Radio Show. This first hour, we dive into one of
(04:51):
the most enduring unsolved American mysteries in American history, that
is the nineteen seventy one hijacking of Northwest one one
Flight three five by the mysterious figure known only as
D B. Cooper. But tonight we're just not going to
reconstruct the tale. We're actually speaking to someone who has
a very personal connection to the legend. Joining us is
(05:14):
Lisa's story. The niece of the men, she says, was
d V. Cooper. Could she hold the missing link to
one of the FBI's most baffling cases. Let's find out.
Extonation Lisa, welcome back to the exone.
Speaker 5 (05:26):
Hi, thanks Ron, and I love the note the song intro.
I hit all the high notes of the crime.
Speaker 4 (05:33):
Yeah, we'll send a copy of it to you. Yeah,
all right, Lisa, can you start by telling our audience
that has grown substantially since you were last with us,
who your uncle was and how you first came to
believe he was dB Cooper.
Speaker 5 (05:50):
Right, So, my uncle's name was Walter Recca, and he
had been you know, Special Forces Army Airborne Air Force
Pair Rescue Hermie intelligence and had applied to the CIA
but was denied because while he was going through the
background check and this is during the time in the
(06:11):
sixties where you know, we were in the height of
the Cold War, and he spoke oh yeah, Polish and Russian, right,
So he took the Army intelligence test. But in the
meantime he also was a bit of a hothead. He
was very brave and very patriotic, but.
Speaker 6 (06:25):
He was a hothead.
Speaker 5 (06:26):
So he shot up somebody's car when they went move
it and he was rejected. Right, So I knew about
some of his crimes, and you know family folklore that
he had robbed Bob's Big Boy and shared some of
the money with the pretty young lady who was the manager.
And of course STEVIEE. Cooper did the same thing. So
(06:49):
we had heard for years about you know. When we
would visit, he would tell us stories about some of
his diamond mine escapades and know a little bit about
his military service things he was very proud of that
he had gotten commendations for. But he never mentioned this
particular crime or anything else. But he had been meeting
(07:14):
up with some of his former paratroopers and Michigan Parachute
team friends and around nineteen ninety nine two thousand on
an annual basis, and they started sharing stories.
Speaker 6 (07:25):
With each other.
Speaker 5 (07:26):
They'd get together for the weekend, and one of his
friends had been convinced since the night of the hijacking
that Walt was the hijacker, and in fact, at the
time he didn't know Walt was living in Washington working
for a company that had a lot of paramilitary contracts
with the CIA, so he thought it might be Walt
(07:47):
because Walt for years had talked about it's stupid to
rob a bank and then asked for a car to
the air airport and then an airplane to go out
of the country. Just rob the airplane and jump out
of it.
Speaker 4 (07:58):
That made sense.
Speaker 6 (07:59):
So he had talked about.
Speaker 5 (08:00):
Yeah, right, you know, you kind of cut down the
middle man.
Speaker 6 (08:03):
So he had talked about that for years.
Speaker 5 (08:05):
So when it happened, a couple of their other Michigan
parachute friends called up Carl and said, what.
Speaker 6 (08:10):
Did Pika do?
Speaker 2 (08:11):
Now?
Speaker 6 (08:11):
Well, his original name was Pica, so he.
Speaker 5 (08:15):
But they thought it was him when they started meeting
up again. His buddy Carl just kept pressing him, saying,
you're dB Cooper, You're dB Cooper, and he's like, I'm not,
I'm not. But after a couple of years, Walt nearly
died of an illness, and then he told Carl, look,
I want to tell you everything because I don't want
to I don't want to lie to you, but also
(08:36):
I think somebody should know. And so then he started
sharing information and Carl talked to him for quite some
time and did several drafts of the book, and Carl
sent me those manuscripts. Carl and I had gotten to
know each other. He became like an uncle to me
as well, and he sent me one of the manuscripts
and hint it talked about the DBI Cooper hijacking, and
(08:59):
so Walt knew Carl and I were talking about it,
but every time we'd visit, I'd ask Walt about it
and he would deny it until about twenty eleven, when
a woman named Marla Cooper made national news saying that
her uncle was d. B. Cooper. And my uncle thought
it was ridiculous her story, and so he sent me
a photocopy of her the article quoting her and said
(09:21):
that would make Marla six years old a real live
Nancy Drew. And then on the side he wrote, you'd
be really proud of Uncle Walton why they never found fingerprints,
And then there was another note on there about the
tie coming from a thrift store. So this was twenty eleven.
He had been talking to Carl, and Carl had been
telling me about it and talking to me since two
(09:43):
thousand and eight, two thousand and nine, and they had
recorded their conversations in two thousand and eight two thousand
and nine. A lot of the information and that recording
was not public knowledge. Most people didn't know it, and
even some of the books hadn't covered this information until
they were released. The interviews with the crew were released
in twenty twelve, so then I really started to think, Wow,
(10:06):
this could be him. He had absolutely done quite a
few crazy things in his life, so it made sense.
And then his buddy Carl actually tracked down an eyewitness,
which was really interesting.
Speaker 4 (10:20):
What kind of man was her uncle? Was he like?
Was he, well, he must have been adventurous since he was,
you know, doing all these things, you know, for the government.
What was he like? Was he a kind of guy
you could crawl upon his knee and tell him your problems.
Was he a great family man?
Speaker 5 (10:44):
No, He's probably not somebody who would give you a
shoulder to cry on, but he would be somebody'd help
you hide.
Speaker 6 (10:50):
A body if he needed to do that.
Speaker 2 (10:52):
Jeez.
Speaker 5 (10:52):
Right, I mean he was a good friend, and he
loved his friends, and he was very loyal to them,
and they were very low to him. He grew up very,
very poor in Detroit, in an area called the Cast Corridor,
and he went to Julie Hall when he was nine
and met a guy named Willard who ended up being
(11:13):
his friend until they both died in their eighties. Right,
I mean, he was that kind of friend you made
a friend for life with him. He quit school, dropped
out of school. His dad died when he was pretty young,
and he dropped out at eighth grade.
Speaker 6 (11:30):
So he was.
Speaker 5 (11:31):
Very intelligent and he read a lot, but he was
not well educated.
Speaker 4 (11:36):
Right.
Speaker 5 (11:37):
So my mom always said Walt could always get jobs,
but he never liked the jobs he got, and he
got he got into some trouble as a juvenile, and
judge told him to join the military or go to jail,
and he didn't want to go to jail, so he
joined the Army paratroopers and from then on he had
really joined and re enlisted several times. In fact, he
(11:59):
was quite paydotic, and he joined the Air Force Pair
of Rescue, which was a very special forces. They drop
in behind enemy lines and rescue down to pilots and
you know, bring either them back their body back or
help them escape alive if they can. But he had
(12:19):
written on the bottom, I am not a conscious objector right,
because they're talking the nineteen sixties when a lot of
people didn't want to serve, so he would volunteer for
service and you know, was quite patriotic.
Speaker 4 (12:33):
Did Hey, Lisa, I hate to notice to you, but
we've got to take a break right now and dex
O Nation Lisa stories are very special guests. So this
is the story of D. B. Cooper from his niece.
We'll be back on the other side of this break ass.
The xone continues with he is truly Rob McConnell from
our broadcast center and studios in Saint Catherine's, Ontario, Canada,
and you're listening to us on your hometown radio Classic
(12:56):
twelve twenty CFAJAM in Saint Catherine's, Ontario, Canada, streaming us
at twelve twenty dot Classic twelve twenty dot CA.
Speaker 1 (13:07):
With the briefcase of secrets and a bourbon in hand,
he passed a note softly. The hijack began. He said
this saying a game. There's a bomb in this case
(13:30):
Land in Seattle'll do it quiet, no chase. He asked
for some cash, she for parachutes too, then vanished in
darkness like ghosts always do.
Speaker 3 (13:43):
He said this same game, there's.
Speaker 1 (13:46):
A bomb in this case Land in Seattle'll do it quiet,
no shakes. He asked for some cash and for parachutes too,
then vanished in darkness like ghosts.
Speaker 3 (14:16):
In the twilight hush where.
Speaker 7 (14:21):
Shadows whisper below, a silver gleamm streaks across the sky,
a glow with a haunting helloady. The air begins to throw.
Speaker 3 (14:42):
An echo of the wonders that from.
Speaker 8 (14:47):
Beyond t come celestial encount as the stars.
Speaker 4 (14:54):
Welcome back to the excell least the stories, my special guest,
and we're talking about her uncle, the infamous Stevie Cooper. Sorry,
we had to cut you a short to Lisa because
of the break, but please continue.
Speaker 6 (15:07):
Sure.
Speaker 5 (15:07):
So, I think one thing though that we were talking
about when because Walt grew up poor and dropped out
of school, he had trouble getting good paying jobs and
keeping them.
Speaker 6 (15:17):
So he took shortcuts.
Speaker 5 (15:18):
And you know, he always considered himself a Robin Hood
kind of character.
Speaker 6 (15:23):
He tried to rob.
Speaker 5 (15:25):
From people who had money and share it with other people,
so it made him feel better about himself. But he
certainly had a Doctor Jekyll and mister Hyde kind of persona.
And you know, he always said that he could you know,
he was very nice and personable, and he had good
friends and he could converse with him and laugh. But
when it came to doing something like you know, whether
(15:47):
it was in service of his country or in a crime.
He would be cold, you know, steel cold, and it was.
He always said it was two personalities he could divorce.
Speaker 6 (16:00):
The words he used.
Speaker 5 (16:00):
Were divorced one personality from the other. So I think
that that's probably true of a lot of people who
maybe you know, go commit something horrible and then you know,
go on with their life and pretend it never happened.
So he had that side to.
Speaker 4 (16:16):
Him as well. Did he ever talk to you about
his time in Vietnam.
Speaker 5 (16:22):
He didn't serve in Vietnam. He served in Korea. He
was a little bit too old for Vietnam. He did,
he served, but he was mostly in Germany, stationed in
Germany because he's quite young. He was seventeen when he
was recruited or joined, and then he was mostly after
(16:43):
four years in Germany. His service in the US was based.
Speaker 6 (16:47):
In the US.
Speaker 5 (16:49):
However, he did volunteer and go. He was part of
the Berlin Crisis and was on overseas for a month
or six weeks and was on site in case one
of our airmen were shot down. He was on the
rescue squad.
Speaker 4 (17:09):
Oh when dbe Cooper passed away, did he ever admit
to you or anyone in your family, I mean blood
family that he in fact was Dbe Cooper.
Speaker 5 (17:23):
He did so besides the Marla Cooper letter, you know
where he kind of hinted to it. I would keep
asking him and he would deny it. And then in
August twenty thirteen, he was really six. So Mom and
I went out and he was like, pack up these things,
take these files. And he had me go get an
(17:43):
envelope that was on a secret compartment behind his desk,
and he said, if you don't want those, send them.
Speaker 6 (17:50):
To Carl, but otherwise they should really.
Speaker 5 (17:51):
Stay in the family. And I didn't really look in
the envelope, and he had me go look at He
made me pack up a bunch of files with information
that to really help me tell his story. But he
also had me get an envelope and he said, can
you go get that notarized in town. I'll sign it.
Speaker 6 (18:09):
You go get it notarized.
Speaker 5 (18:10):
And I'm like, well, that's not how it works, right,
So you have to be there, and he goes, I
don't know if I can make it to town. I said, well,
he goes, read it and tell me what you think.
So I start reading it and through their conversations Carl
had typed up like a twelve page, fourteen page confession
about I am dB Cooper, and it had the cover
(18:30):
page where all the names he went by. He had
a Canadian social Security number I don't know why, he
had a Saudi Arabian social security number, and he had
two or three US social Security numbers, and then one
of the names was I have also gone by DBI
Cooper Dan Cooper. And then the story, you know, the
(18:50):
confession had the whole outline that this is what I did,
this is how I did it, this is the person
I met the night of the hijacking who gave my
friend Don Brennan directions home, you know, to the where
I was, and then helped me get home. So that
and so then I started talking to him.
Speaker 6 (19:09):
I said, this is true. You're Dbie Cooper.
Speaker 5 (19:12):
And he said yes, And I'm like, why tell me
now and he said because I'm dying. And I said,
you'd been saying that for years and he goes, I
mean it this time.
Speaker 6 (19:19):
And so we had this whole.
Speaker 5 (19:21):
Conversation and I asked him, I said, you know, aren't.
Speaker 6 (19:24):
You proud of your stuff? You got away with.
Speaker 5 (19:27):
Like the most one of the most infamous crimes in
our country. And he thought furious, and he said, I
didn't get away with nothing, and he said, I was identified,
I was recruited for work overseas, and I did things
that I figure I'm going to hell for. Like he
just he assumed he didn't think the hijacking was a
(19:48):
big deal.
Speaker 6 (19:48):
He didn't.
Speaker 5 (19:49):
He was very calm, He was very polite to everybody.
He didn't hurt anybody. The insurance the way he said
it was, you know, the insurance company paid the RAM
and they had gotten paid over the years from Northwest
Airlines for events like this.
Speaker 6 (20:05):
So it was just a service.
Speaker 5 (20:07):
And I you know, he didn't really think about the
mental anguish he caused anybody, right, So, but what he
said was what happened afterwards was far worse than the hijacking.
And he didn't he didn't want me to think of
him as.
Speaker 6 (20:22):
A hero or a folk hero. He thought that he.
Speaker 5 (20:25):
Had done some pretty bad things, but the hijacking in particular.
I asked him why he did it, and he said,
because he was so destitute by that point, he just
thought he was better dead than poor.
Speaker 4 (20:36):
I'm real, listen, if I'm not mistaken that that affidavit
or the article that was why your uncle wanted to
get notarized, that include the confession. Was that confession ever
given to the FBI?
Speaker 5 (20:53):
It was so and it's so funny is that Today's
the day. I just got an email from the FBI
agent who sent it to the Portland FBI agent and
she's like, how are you doing? Did anything ever come
of your story and of you know, your your uncle's case,
and it's and I haven't responded yet. So I had
(21:15):
my mom and I we had a next door neighbor
and she was one of the first female FBI agents
in the country years ago, and she had come back
to town. She had moved away and she was undercover.
She had moved away, and she came back and Mom
and I had dinner with her. Oh my goodness.
Speaker 6 (21:34):
It was probably like.
Speaker 5 (21:37):
Two years after my uncle died, in about a month
or two before or after the FBI closed the case.
And we told her everything. We showed her his US
Foreign Service IDs KGB I d he had. We showed
her everything and told her the whole story. And I
asked if she could submit his confession to the FBI,
(22:00):
and she said, sure, I can send it and she was,
I'm retired now, but it is professional courtesy for one
agent to you know, take seriously another agent's tip. So
she emailed the FBI agent in Portland and said, here
is a confession of somebody, a relative of a friend
(22:20):
of mine. They are normal people, They are not crazy,
you know, she kind of, I mean, I'm paraphrasing what
she said. She goes, can you please look at this?
They'd really, you know, they would just like you to
look at it and see what you think. He sent
it back on read and said they would close the case,
or they were going to close the case, and unless
I could produce or my mom could produce one of
(22:41):
the twenty dollars bills or the parachute, he didn't want
to read it or hear about it. And we just
she thought that was very odd. She said, it's just
professional courtesy that you take another agent's input and give
it at least a cursory look. And so, yeah, so
they ignored it. There was another time too that Carl
(23:05):
had snuck some tissues from Walt and had them had
DNA done on them, Yeah, without Walt's knowledge, and he
went to an attorney where he lived in Florida, and
he didn't tell the attorney Walt's name, and he didn't
tell him, you know, the name of the accomplice who
(23:26):
picked Walts up that night, who was quite a character,
and who the FBI interviewed as a suspect.
Speaker 6 (23:32):
But he just he.
Speaker 5 (23:33):
Said, you know, here's this. He did the DNA report himself.
He didn't send the tissues in right, so I don't
know where he got the DNA done. And the attorney
sent it to the FBI in Portland and said, you know,
here's the story. Here is the the DNA sequence. And
(23:55):
the Portland agent said it doesn't match. But who was
the name? What was the name of the person who
picked him up up? And Carl always thought that was
really weird because if you don't think it's the hijacker,
why would you want to know who picked him up.
But what was also interesting was that while we were
waiting for the or while Carl was waiting for the
(24:16):
FBI to respond to his attorney, Walt called him up
and said, I can't believe you dna'ed me.
Speaker 6 (24:23):
What are you thinking?
Speaker 5 (24:25):
And Carl had never told Walt, but he had a
contact in the FBI that gave him the heads up
before his houses rated for another issue. And you know,
after the hijacking, he was on the radar, so they
kept tabs on him. I'm not sure that's how much
the FBI knew he was involved. I think it was
(24:46):
more his intelligence work that happened afterwards.
Speaker 4 (24:49):
Wow.
Speaker 5 (24:50):
So yeah, so we tried to notify the FBI. The
weren't interested and the one time. The other thing about
what we're not sure about is according to the articles
we bread and the FBI documents, they don't have full
strands of DNA. They only have partial strands from three
different individuals. And when the hijacking happened, and they they
(25:13):
got rid of these cigarette butts that had sliva on it,
and they never tested for blood type, even though they
could have done that back then.
Speaker 6 (25:20):
So they got rid of that with the.
Speaker 5 (25:21):
Best DNA and they just kept They got some DNA
off the tie, the clip on tie, but partial DNA.
And by the time they sent it in and it
was almost I think thirty years old, and it hadn't
been stored. I don't know if it was stored in
a refrigerator, I doubt it. I don't think the tie
was stored in a refrigerator, so we don't even know
if they actually have valid DNA to you know, find
(25:46):
any suspect, you know, tied to any suspect.
Speaker 4 (25:49):
With the fact that there was currency involved, couldn't the
OUs Treasury Department get involved? They're part of the Secret
Service and all the other aspects of the investmentation because
the money was involved, and you had pretty good evidence
that you knew who the suspect was and that they
could actually close the case.
Speaker 5 (26:09):
You know, I didn't really think about reaching out to
the Secret Service, but I think I've done a lot
of Freedom of Information Act request, you know, especially too.
I'll give you an example.
Speaker 6 (26:21):
He's got this qgb ID.
Speaker 4 (26:23):
All right, why don't we do this? Why don't we
Why don't we do this? So I just looked at
the clock. I've had about thirty seconds before I have
to take a break, So let's continue this on the
other side. Fascinating conversation with the niece of the infamous
dB Cooper. This is the x O and I'm Rob McConnell.
We're coming to you from our broadcast center in studios
(26:43):
in Saint Catherine's, Ontario, Canada, and you're listening to us
on the Talk Star Radio Network, Mutual Broadcast Network, x
oone Broadcast Network, and your hometown Radio Classic twelve twenty
c FAJ Right here in St. Catherine's, Ontario, Canada. They
stream us in twenty four to threes, twenty five, three,
twenty six. Whatever, Well, they don't stream us, they eat.
(27:05):
They stream their entire wonderful musical all day programming. We'll
be back on the other side. Whatever you do, don't
go away.
Speaker 7 (27:17):
With a haunting helloady. The air begins to throw.
Speaker 3 (27:25):
An echo the wonders that from beyond have come.
Speaker 8 (27:33):
Celestial encounter as the stars of the line, a tapestry
of wonders woven through space and time from the void
of darkness, A chorus six so bright.
Speaker 3 (27:49):
The story is unfolding in the velvet night through the
gus of science.
Speaker 4 (28:24):
Welcome back every when Lisa Story's my special guest, and
we're talking this hour, Well, we're kind of diving into
one of the most enduring and solved mysteries in American history,
the nineteen seventy one hijacking of Northwest Oriyan Flight three
zero five by the mysterious figure known only as d V. Cooper.
(28:44):
But tonight we're just not recounting the tale exaanation. We're
speaking with someone who has a personal connection to the legend.
Joining us now is Lisa's story, the niece of the
man she says was d V.
Speaker 2 (28:56):
Cooper. Could she hold the.
Speaker 4 (28:59):
Missing link to the FBI's most baffling cases. Well, it
seems that she has the entire story, including a confession,
but the FBI doesn't want to know anything about it
because they just want close the case. Who knows more?
All right, Lisa, what was it when you found out
that the FBI were saying that's it, no matter what
(29:21):
you've got, we're closing in the case.
Speaker 5 (29:25):
I think I decided that I just do my own
research and go through the files and it. I guess
it just was disappointing. But at the same time, would
they even be able to even if they believed his story,
would there ever be enough hard evidence to physically tie
(29:46):
it to him that. I don't think the FBI was
aware he was Cooper. I think that intelligence agencies knew
because I think that's how.
Speaker 4 (29:57):
He was recruited.
Speaker 5 (29:59):
You know, at the time of the hijacking, he was
working for a company named Vanell that was had CIA contracts,
but they were working on the construction of the third
Powerhouse on the Grand Cooley Dam in Washington, and it
was they were hiring special forces guys like my uncle.
And my uncle had met the recruiter, the CIA recruiter
(30:22):
Phil and kept in contact with him and still got
him the job at Vnell. And he told them just
hold tight, just keep working. We're working on these contracts
in the Middle East. But it was taking a couple
of years to get through the right process, right. But
Vanell had special forces people. And this is one of
(30:42):
the things my uncle did in the Middle East is
they trained the Saudi Arabian National Guard.
Speaker 6 (30:47):
They were also they protected.
Speaker 5 (30:50):
The oil fields in Saudi and they also did things
like respond to the Grand Mosque and Mecca siege. And
my uncle said he was there as part of the
Nell crew, and that's kind of a whole other story.
But anyway, he was working for Vanel And I'm just
going to get sidetracked and excited.
Speaker 6 (31:13):
About this story.
Speaker 5 (31:13):
But anyway, and I'm sorry I lost my turney that
thought what we were talking about, the.
Speaker 4 (31:21):
How he got you got me so involved in the
story you were telling that I forgot about. My question
was hold on?
Speaker 5 (31:31):
I can't remember we get off on these side.
Speaker 4 (31:35):
Yeah, I think we were talking about shifting the investigation
from one jurisdiction to another because of all the you know,
all the all the case file that you had, You
had his confession, and yet the FBI didn't want to
do anything about it, right.
Speaker 5 (31:49):
Okay, So that's where I was going with the Vanell
story in the CIA contract.
Speaker 6 (31:53):
So what what Walt.
Speaker 5 (31:55):
Said happened is, you know, he limped into a cafe
with a broken leg. He was soaking wet, He had
a pat you know, his raincoat wrapped around something under
his arm, and there was a guy dressed in cowboy
gear and had a guitar, and he said, hey, kid,
can you if I call my friend, can you give
him directions to where I am? And the guy said yeah,
(32:17):
and so his friend Don Brennan picked him up. And
Don also had CIA connections. Just a couple of years
before Don was working, he was a smoke jumper and
he and several other smoke jumpers were in Thailand on
a CIA operation. Right And in fact, I think it
was Don and one of his other friends that told
my uncle about the CIA recruitment process in Elsinore, California,
(32:42):
which is how he met Phil, how he got the
job with nnel So a couple months or four months
after the hijacking. Walt had been destitute poor. Just eighteen
months before he had been evicted from a trailer because
he couldn't afford sixty dollars a month rent, right, and
now he paid cash for a down payment on a
(33:02):
house and cash for the payments, which the guy who
sold him the house went on video and you talked
about his impressions and how polite he was and how
he paid cash and had no problem, and he paid
the house off in five years, going from super boor
to all of a sudden, even when he still didn't
have a regular job. So he was on a job
site and a couple iron workers came up to him
(33:24):
and said, hey, do you want to go have a
beer and talk. We're new here, and my uncle said sure.
He never turned down a free beer. So they went
to dinner and the guy is leaned forward and said,
we know what you did. Do you want to go
to jail and he said no, he goes, well, then
you work for us and we will call you and
they just laughed, right, And it's kind of similar to
(33:47):
you know.
Speaker 6 (33:48):
How you see these.
Speaker 5 (33:49):
Things happen in movies. It was very similar to that.
And then they called him a couple of weeks later
and he started going to Idaho for training. A lot
of it was psychological and that type of thing, because
he had the military training, he didn't need that, and
he had the weapons training so and he had the
parachute jump and.
Speaker 6 (34:09):
All of that type of stuff.
Speaker 5 (34:11):
So after that he was he started working overseas. So
I think where the shifting investigation goes is. I don't
think the FBI ever identified him, but they think they did.
The whatever intelligence units. He was working for, CIA contractors.
Speaker 6 (34:30):
All of that.
Speaker 5 (34:30):
He did quite a few jobs overseas, so I think
they knew he was a hijacker. That's why they approached him,
or somebody in Vanell figured it out and they recruited
him through the CIA. The vice president of Vanel was
a former CIA officer and OSS officer. And then it's
(34:50):
just you know, Don Brennan picked him up. He was
a smoke jumper who worked for the CIA. One of
whilst other good friends, Bob Sinclair, was in business with
a guy named Jim Hall who was CIA and Dave
Bert who was interviewed by the FBI as a suspect
and also was a smoke jumper. And then there was
a guy that Bob Sinclair was friends with and in
(35:12):
business with named Lyle Cameron. And Lyle was an FBI
informant who contacted the FBI after the hijacking and said
he met a guy in Elson Or a few months
before the hy jackiing who asked about can you jump
out of the commercial airliner? And he said, sure if
there's a side door that opens in or rear stairs.
(35:33):
But the really interesting thing about Lyle is that he
was the last person Jack Ruby spoke to on the
telephone before Jack Ruby shot Lee Harvey else.
Speaker 4 (35:44):
So wait, wait a second, Wait a second, a second year,
wait a second year. Are you tying in the the
hijacking by DV Cooper into the Kennedy assassination somehow?
Speaker 5 (35:58):
No, what I'm saying is he had these associations with
all of these people who also had CIA or FBI informed,
you know what I mean, Like he was involved and
hung with people that had all kinds of one step
away that I can have. I have heart sure involvement
(36:19):
in these other things, right Art Lucier was one of
his best friends in Michigan Parachute team members. Eight months
after the hijacking, Art was arrested with a guy named
Barry Seal and a Gambino family ever wrote the cost
of Yeah, so they Barry Seal was made famous by
(36:41):
Tom Cruise and that movie American Maid from the Iran
Contrast Scandal. But Art was with Barry when they were
trying on a CIA plot to overthrow Castro and get
explosives to people who were going to try to overthrow Castro.
His other guy, Ken Sissler, was a smoke jumper. Walt
jumped with them several times of newspaper articles with their
(37:03):
names together and stuff. He was CIA ops and Vietnam.
He did mac V. He was in a mac V
Saggi in it with a guy named Ted Brayden, who
a lot of people right now in the dB Cooper worldlike.
Speaker 6 (37:15):
Is a suspect.
Speaker 5 (37:17):
But quite a few of these people from Don Dave
fred Bernowski, these smoke jumpers were all interviewed within days
of the hijacking as suspects. And so I think it's
just so weird if you had one association with the CIA,
but to have eight or nine people that you know personally.
Speaker 6 (37:39):
Involved.
Speaker 5 (37:40):
It just I think makes his story more realistic, besides
the fact that I do have US Foreign Service identifications
for him that are legitimate. I mean I researched and
made sure the names of the people who signed them
were in office at that time. And I have his
letter from the CIA telling him, thank you for your application,
(38:02):
we can't use your skills right now. So I have
a heart evidence in addition to the things that he
told me.
Speaker 4 (38:08):
And he told Karl, Okay, you've got the letter of
rejection by the CIA. But if he had been recruited
at a later place in time for the CIA, wouldn't
there be documentation to that as well?
Speaker 6 (38:27):
Well?
Speaker 5 (38:28):
He wasn't recruited as an agent, he or as an asset, right,
so he was a contractor, he wasn't he He had
applied to try to become, you know, to work for them,
or maybe it was one of the crews that worked,
you know, in Thailand for the CIA on some of
those opts. But he didn't get recruited officially. But they
(38:52):
did use a lot I mean during that timeframe, and
there's tons of books. I mean, I referenced it in
my book the different newspaper articles and books where it
talks about how the CIA used you know, third party
contractors because they could hide what they were doing from
Congress that way.
Speaker 4 (39:10):
Plus they're disposable, they're disposable, and you know, one of
the that's such a good point because when.
Speaker 5 (39:18):
Well retired, he had all of these names on his resume,
and he had all of these identifications and did all
of this work and put his life on the line.
But there was no pension, right because you work for
every country a company for like one year or that's
your cover, and you do these things and you.
Speaker 6 (39:36):
Get paid cash.
Speaker 5 (39:37):
And he got paid a lot of money, and he
did invest some of it.
Speaker 6 (39:40):
But you have no.
Speaker 5 (39:41):
Pension, you can't.
Speaker 6 (39:43):
You just have your regular Social Security checked.
Speaker 2 (39:45):
That's it.
Speaker 4 (39:46):
I don't much. And I'll bet you their medical wasn't
covered after they left the service either.
Speaker 5 (39:52):
Now, well, he because he had he did have veterans
and oh yeah, yeah, because he had served officially in
the military service.
Speaker 4 (40:05):
But yeah, fascinating story. We've got one more segment. I'd
love to get a lot more information out and I
want to thank you again for coming on the show.
It's all it's a great pleasure having you with us.
Speaker 5 (40:17):
Lisa, Yeah, thank you so much.
Speaker 4 (40:20):
All right, excellanation. If you'd like to find out more
about Lisa dB Cooper, what is your Facebook page, Lisa.
Speaker 6 (40:28):
It's dB Cooper Story sto.
Speaker 4 (40:30):
Ry all one word, Yes, pretty much.
Speaker 5 (40:36):
And I also had that book Better than then pour
out on Amazon that you know, kind of outlines all
of this stuff with a lot of extensive footnotes.
Speaker 4 (40:47):
All right, Lisa and I will be back on the
other side of this very short break, and coming up
after Lisa and I say so long in about fifteen
minutes from now. Our number two of the X one
starts for tonight and goes in right from eleven o'clock
until midnight. All right, excellentation. Thesis story is my guest.
(41:11):
We're talking about her uncle, the infamous D V. Cooper.
We'll be back on the other side of this break
as we take another look at different ways of looking
at this case. But I'll tell you something, I believe her.
We'll be back.
Speaker 2 (41:26):
Don't go away.
Speaker 9 (42:10):
Some days I walk, some days I crawl. Some days
I can't feel much at all.
Speaker 1 (42:23):
My body's amaze that I try to read every step
forward a silent me. But I won't let this break
who I am. I've learned how to fight, learn how
(42:46):
to stand. I may fall, stilverise through the pain, through.
Speaker 4 (42:57):
The tears in myn.
Speaker 3 (43:01):
This road is long, but is here.
Speaker 2 (43:06):
It's read.
Speaker 3 (43:08):
With every sun.
Speaker 1 (43:11):
I liveded fine.
Speaker 2 (43:17):
But what a.
Speaker 4 (43:20):
Welcome back everyone. Lisa's story is my very special guest
this hour. We're talking about her uncle, the infamous D. B.
Speaker 2 (43:27):
Cooper.
Speaker 4 (43:31):
Since you've come out with your story, how does the
mainstream media taking you? Are they supporting your story? Are
they trying to press law enforcement to find out how
can they drop the case or.
Speaker 6 (43:45):
No?
Speaker 5 (43:45):
I think, you know, when it first came out and
we Carl published his book and the documentary that came
out like in twenty sixteen, it did make national news,
but from then we just really didn't put you know,
I think we just let it. It made national news,
but then you have these The FBI never came out.
(44:07):
We haven't really pursued or looked at other ways to
have him looked at officially, and I think we just
let it go. You know, Mom said, it's probably just
best that nobody knows anyway, right, and just best nobody
thinks it's him and so and I think in the forums,
(44:28):
like there are a lot of different groups on Facebook
and Reddit and different places, they discount his story because
when Carl Carl interviewed him and had the recording, when
they were coming out with a documentary, the producer of
that documentary hired a former Michigan State Police officer who
(44:51):
had a private investigation firm. He's trained by the FBI
in forensic linguistics, which is telling whether or not people
are telling the truth or lying. And so he went
through the recordings and the printed confession, the written confession.
He talked to Carl, he talked to me, he talked
to the eyewitness, Jeff o'ciotage, and he determined that all
(45:13):
of us were being truthful and honest. Now just because
like my uncle was being truthful, he was recalling things
forty forty five years later, his memories weren't precise.
Speaker 6 (45:28):
What he said is that.
Speaker 5 (45:30):
He remembered certain things, but other things he just didn't
pay attention to it. Like in the dB Cooper Sleuth World,
Amateur Sleuth World, they're talking about, you know, what grain
of shoe, like what grain were his shoes? And did
the eyewitness remember that? And I just think when you're
talking about I can't. If you asked me about the
(45:52):
birth of my daughters. Those were the most important events
in my life, and I could tell you certain things
I remember. I remember certain pain, like I remember hearing
a woman screamed down the hallway when I started and
thinking no, what I went And then later I was like, oh, man,
that lady had something.
Speaker 6 (46:09):
She had you.
Speaker 4 (46:09):
Know, she knew what was going on, right, Yes she did.
Speaker 5 (46:12):
But if you asked me, yeah, right. But if you
asked me other details, I don't remember them. I was
in an extreme state of dress, you know, because both
you know, especially my first one, wasn't there, you know,
a problem. So I think that they expect, you know,
when they read well. When Joe Kennigg's wife transcribed the
(46:38):
recordings and then he wrote his notes of where people
are being truthful and not truthful With Carl and Walt,
there were a couple spots where Carl and Walt were
talking about, you know, what would you have done if
there was no rear door because that was really convenient,
And Carl alson, did you choose the plane for that reason?
And he said, no, I just whatever they sold me
the ticket for, which is what the Northwest Airlines ticket
(47:02):
agent said is he just asked for a flight to.
Speaker 6 (47:06):
Seattle.
Speaker 5 (47:06):
He didn't ask what kind of plane it was, and
that information was not public knowledge.
Speaker 4 (47:11):
So but it certainly is now you can find out the.
Speaker 5 (47:17):
Exacty that is now right, right, But back then you couldn't. Right.
And so they're they're having this conversation and Carl said, well,
what would you have done had there been no rear door?
And Walt said, and I heard it on the recording.
I played it over and over again. He said, I
would have gone out the side door. But the way
(47:38):
it was transcribed in the book is I went out
the side door. Well, even in the context of that conversation,
he didn't say he went out the side the side door.
What he was saying is that's where he would have
gone out. So then what you have in these groups
that are just like, well, it can't be him. Now
they believe Jeff o'ciotage. He's turned out, like a lot
(47:59):
of people come forward and said he is a very
honest person. And he was the truck driver who was
playing in Cowboy band, a country band that night. He
remembered that night because it was odd and he told
his family about it. They all said, oh, yeah, well,
we remember when he told us he met this stranger
soaking wet, beat red in the bar with his coat.
(48:21):
But he was soaking wet, but he wasn't wearing his
coat and was wrapped around something and he didn't know
where he was. So he remembered that, and they remember
that Walt remembered certain details about that and how he
got home. And that's howl Carl was a pilot, so
he looked at different flight paths. Well, in the amateur
sleuth world, the fact that you know, they're just picking
(48:44):
apart things that my uncle said or remembered or didn't remember, right,
and there are things that down the line, or there
are things he doesn't remember that they're like, oh, he
would have remembered that. That's a big deal. But the
flight pat the Air Force jets following Northwest Airlines lost
it almost immediately, and that's in the FBI memos, and
(49:07):
they asked for permission to tell the public that and
to tell, you know, go on a news story to
talk about that they were much faster than the flow
commercial jet right and the published flight path supposedly goes
right by Mount Saint Helens at that was about ten
thousand feet, which the plane was flying at ten thousand feet.
Speaker 6 (49:28):
So Carl had tracked what.
Speaker 5 (49:30):
A normal route to Reno would have been, and it
would have gone kind of east and then turns south
southeast at Ellensburg, near where Walt landed. He lent a
little north of that. But they're saying, well because the
flight path, the flight path is like set and stone,
but it's not. I talked to Captain Scott's daughter and
(49:53):
her fiance, and the fiance is a pilot. He said
they didn't really know where they were. North Airlines was
directing them and radar wasn't that good back then. So
it's funny like when they want certain facts to align
with their story or their suspect, you know, you have
to listen to what the FBI said, but when that
doesn't meet what they want to say, they're like, well,
(50:13):
ignore what the FBI said. So that's kind of it.
I mean, I don't think he's a popular suspect in
the dB.
Speaker 6 (50:20):
Cooper world, but it doesn't.
Speaker 5 (50:22):
Matter because I really do believe him. Yeah, and the
eye witness is and then you have Joe kenneg is
what the former lead investigator on the Jimmy Hoffa case.
You know, so this guy is not any slouch.
Speaker 4 (50:38):
Is it possible because of the work that your uncle
did for the CIA and other intelligence agencies, that the
FBI were told, because of his abilities and the missions
that he may have been on or are continuing on,
(50:59):
the FBI would have been told to shut the file down.
Speaker 5 (51:04):
I definitely think that's possible. And I actually found several
newspaper articles even from like the nineteen seventies, where the
FBI said, if we're looking into somebody and the CIA
tells us they're an asset, stop the investigation. We do.
So that's actually been printed as far back as the
(51:25):
nineteen seventies, nineteen eighties, so and I had found.
Speaker 6 (51:28):
A few of those articles. So yeah, I think.
Speaker 2 (51:30):
It's absolutely possible.
Speaker 4 (51:31):
Sort of why, especially with all the information that you have,
all the evidence of the interviews, That's the only reason
I can see, as a former police officer myself, for
an investigation being shut down.
Speaker 2 (51:48):
Right, yeah, right, So what's new?
Speaker 4 (51:51):
What do you go up to next? Are you doing
more lectures, more speaking, writing another book or two?
Speaker 5 (51:58):
I think my next. I spent over a years on
this book and really trying to like go through the
FBI files and go through my uncle's files and document
things so people don't think I'm just making stuff up,
that they see why I have pulled these lines together
and tell the story. But I think the next book
I write will be uh will.
Speaker 6 (52:20):
Be fiction, not because for fun, because this.
Speaker 5 (52:23):
Has been really intense. I've spent more than ten years
on this, and I think it's time for me to
have my own adventures and not write about my uncles anymore.
I think it's just time to move on. And I
just don't think anyone's cares. I don't think the authorities
care to identify who the real Gbie Cooper is. And
the only people who care, you know, unsolved mystery fans. Yes,
(52:47):
and they'll never believe anybody you know. You could there's
unless you could come up with the twenty dollars bill.
I don't think they'd believe it.
Speaker 6 (52:54):
Was the hijacker.
Speaker 4 (52:56):
There's a there's a point. Your uncle was a collector
of things. Why wouldn't he keep a couple of US
twenty dollars bills around us.
Speaker 5 (53:05):
Trophies because he didn't want to go to jail. I mean,
he was destitute and he needed money. He spent the money.
He put some of the money in the Canadian Bank
just north asumas that entry up there. People talk about
that he didn't brag.
Speaker 6 (53:27):
About this crime.
Speaker 5 (53:27):
He didn't brag about any of his crimes. Ever, he
didn't keep anything from any crime. The only thing he
kept from this one were the long John Zetti wore,
even though they never fit again. But that could never
really be tied to the crime. Right, if you keep
one of the twenties, even years later, you're going to jail.
And that's why I told him, don't sign the confession.
(53:50):
I don't care that you're sick and you're eighty. They'll
send you to jail for.
Speaker 6 (53:53):
The rest of your life.
Speaker 4 (53:54):
So the confession was never signed, right, that's good.
Speaker 5 (54:00):
Out of it now. My mom and I talked him
out of it.
Speaker 4 (54:02):
So so the FBI never did receive assigned confession from
your uncle.
Speaker 5 (54:11):
No, but there he's on recording, you know what I mean.
They have the recording of his.
Speaker 6 (54:15):
Voice as well.
Speaker 5 (54:16):
Talking about it.
Speaker 4 (54:19):
All right, let our listeners know what your face, Let
our listeners know what your Facebook pages. Pardon me, let
our listeners know how they can find you on Facebook.
Speaker 5 (54:32):
Oh, I'm sorry. I'm on Facebook on dB Cooper story
and I have a lot of the documents and photos
of my uncle and different letters and stuff like that
that they can see.
Speaker 6 (54:43):
So dB Cooper.
Speaker 4 (54:45):
Story, Lisa, I want to thank you again, always great
talking to you. Continued success, and I for one hope
one day there'll be a knock at the door and
they'll be the FBI saying you were right who dB
Cooper was. Take care of yourself, Lisa, Thank you. X
(55:06):
O Nation. Lise Astoria has been our guest. We've been
talking about the dB Cooper case. I'll be back on
the other side of this break as the X Zone
continues with Here is truly Rob McConnell from our broadcast
center and studios in Saint Catharine's, Ontario, Canada. You're listening
to us on the Talk Star Radio Network, Mutual Broadcast Network,
xone Broadcast Network, and on your hometown radio Classic twelve
(55:28):
twenty c f AJAM, and they stream us around the
world on Classic twelve twenty dot CA. We'll be back
with our two in a very short while. I mean
very short, maybe forty seconds, fifty seconds, I don't know,
but I guarantee you it'll be short,
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