August 5, 2025 • 38 mins
Joining us this week is Sarah Tulien, Executive Director of the Creator Accountability Network, to talk about conflict, offense, scandal, and potential paths forward.
http://www.creatoraccountabilitynetwork.org
Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/thethinkingatheist--3270347/support.
http://www.creatoraccountabilitynetwork.org
Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/thethinkingatheist--3270347/support.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:05):
The Thinking Atheist. It's not a person, it's a symbol,
an idea.
Speaker 2 (00:10):
The population of atheists in this country is going through the.
Speaker 1 (00:13):
Rule, rejecting faith, pursuing knowledge, challenging the sacred. If I
tell the truth, it's because I tell the truth, not because.
Speaker 3 (00:22):
I put my hand on a book and made a.
Speaker 1 (00:24):
Wish and working together for a more rational world.
Speaker 2 (00:29):
Take the risk of thinking, feel so much more happiness.
Truth Usian wisdom will come to you that way.
Speaker 1 (00:35):
Assume nothing, question everything, and start thinking. This is the
Thinking Atheist podcast hosted by Seth Andrews.
Speaker 2 (00:56):
I wanted to have a conversation with Sarah Tulane. She
is the executive director of the Creator Accountability Network. Now
I'm going to talk about what that is, what it does,
and why. Sarah. Welcome, Good to see you, Hi, Seth.
Speaker 1 (01:12):
So.
Speaker 2 (01:14):
Creator meaning content creator for what the secular movements? I mean,
frame the organization, give me the mission statement for lack
of a better word, if you would, sure.
Speaker 3 (01:26):
The Creator Accountability Network is an organization that uses restorative
justice approach to helping content creators. That's where Creator comes from.
Community leaders and members of those communities prevent harmful behavior
and address it.
Speaker 2 (01:40):
When it happens, all right, so let's let's just go there.
We in the secular movement have seen instances where there
have been inappropriate behaviors, even a few instances of predatory behaviors. Right,
we haven't been immune for many of the scandals or
or even just I don't know, just inappropriate stuff that
(02:03):
has been seen, whether it's within a free thought group
or at a convention or something. It's one of the
reasons that a few years ago we saw code of
conduct guidelines posted actually in the programs or near the
entrances of all these things, because we wanted to make
sure that all the bases were covered. Everybody knows what
the rules are. But is that sort of I don't know.
(02:25):
The genesis of all this was that the inspiration we
have seen shit go down, and now we want to
try to get in front of it.
Speaker 3 (02:33):
Quite literally, we have seen shit go down, and we thought,
you know, there are every time something like this goes down,
you think to yourself, how could it have been prevented?
What could have stopped this from happening earlier on? I
see a lot of those conversations happen every time something
like this goes down. What was done to prevent it,
(02:54):
what was done to try to address it. Our organization
does both. We work to prevent harassment and abuse and
unethical behavior, and we work to address it and help
people work through it when it does happen.
Speaker 2 (03:08):
Well, give me some situationals. I heard the word harassment,
and I heard the word unethical behavior. Give me some
examples of the stuff that sort of the radar is
out for. Okay, so.
Speaker 3 (03:21):
There's not a lot of support to help with harassment
and abuse that doesn't actually, let's say, violate the law.
These things are spectrums of behavior where you can go
from just general discomfort, things that we recognize do push
people out of our communities and out of our movements,
(03:42):
all the way up to things that are egregious crimes.
Restorative justice addresses a broad spectrum of things, whether their
crimes or not, so we can address things that are
more minor or more major, things where people are hoping
to receive education to address and prevent future occurrences of
(04:03):
that behavior, and also to help repair harms that have
been caused, whether that's through statements of apology or sharing
education that someone has learned with other people.
Speaker 2 (04:16):
All Right, So one of the I'm going to play
devil's advocate here and everybody go with me. Two words,
witch hunt. All right, find anybody, anybody who's got to
beef hunt with somebody. They're going to come to you
and they're going to be like, that person's terrible, and
then you're going to go and nuke them from orbit
and we're going to destroy their lives. This is probably
one of the first things that we're going to see
(04:38):
in common sections. Let's get in front of that. Is
this the case.
Speaker 3 (04:44):
We actually help prevent witch hunts? We call it more
unsubstantiated accusations, So unsubstantiated does not mean untrue. It just
means we don't know what's going on yet, and accusation
is out there. A lot of times, the court of
public opinion is one of the worst places to litigate
(05:07):
something like this. Even when a harm has occurred. Victims
who try to come forward can find themselves in a
really scary position. A lot of times, if you're coming
forward in a public space, you're coming forward against somebody
who is a leader in the community, who has a
lot of support, and people have a lot of motivated reasoning,
(05:29):
even biases, so there's a lot of motivation to let's say,
go after the character of the person who's coming forward,
or to question what they did, what they said, why
did they say it? So a lot of victim blaming
happens there. And then on the other hand, people who
do want to address these issues and support it will
(05:50):
come out in support of the person making the allegations,
and they'll come after your content creator. Why don't you
understand how this is impacting our move Why don't you
understand how this is pushing people out? Why don't you
understand how this impacted this one person. A lot of
times your community fractures, and what you're left with is
(06:10):
the people who supported the you know, whatever the allegations were,
tend to leave or get really quiet. They don't feel
safe anymore. And the people who stay are the people
who more backed you, but might also have more biases
and might also, you know, be less willing to believe
or hear out somebody who says, hey, something that happened
to me.
Speaker 2 (06:30):
Maybe witch hunt's the wrong word. I mean a lot
of people on a witch hunt weren't just out to
screw somebody over because they were being vindictive. They literally
believed in witches maybe that's a whole other I was
looking sort of groping. For god, I don't want to
use the word groping, let me use a different ter
forgive me, but we've seen you that's not better. That's
(06:51):
somebody goes to a convention and there's a we'll call
it a power dynamic because that's the phrase that is
often used when we've people who are speakers or influencers
who have then traded in on that influence to try
to gain access, even sexual access to an attendee. We
have to admit that this in the past has happened.
(07:15):
And you know, these people did not go to a
convention because they wanted to be hit on. They went
because they wanted to go to the convention and learn
things and have a good time, which brings us back
to the codes of conducts. But when we talk about
those types of inappropriate behaviors, you have seen examples of
the power dynamic and people who have sort of abused
(07:39):
their influence to try to I don't know, invite somebody, Hey,
come up to my room, honey, kind of thing. I mean,
we've seen that happen. Unfortunately, right we have.
Speaker 3 (07:49):
Yeah, the Creator Accountability Network is an opt in model.
So content creators leaders join us, and when they do,
they receive trainings on harassment and abuse prevention and bystander intervention.
But we specifically put them through scenarios where we have
(08:11):
them think what would I do in the scenario, What
does the power dynamic do in this scenario? How does
it impact the person I'm talking to. It's not that
you can never interact with other people. It's not that
you can never forge relationships. It's that you have to
be mentally mindful and aware of your power dynamic within
(08:32):
these situations and what the other person might be there for,
making sure that you are incredibly easy to say no to,
and that you're always seeking positive, affirmative, enthusiastic consent for everything,
for a conversation, for you know, hanging out together at
(08:58):
the bar, for whatever you're doing, that you're welcome.
Speaker 2 (09:01):
It's funny we're both managing our language carefully because the
other side of this coin is, and I've said this
since I have become an activist, you know, we are
all adults in the room and we are going to often,
let's say we are single, or we're looking for a
connection of any kind, we're probably going to find that
(09:22):
in whatever circle that we exist in. So if you
are a secular person, you're an atheist, you or whatever,
and you interact in those circles. A convention might be
part of that circle. You might meet someone and you
develop there's a spark there and before you know what,
you are having a drink and then you say, hey,
would you like to have dinner? And so a lot
(09:43):
of us who were like, well, you know, we talk
about being liberated and getting other people from getting into
our bedrooms and telling us what to do and how
to operate, and you know, it's none of your damn
business kind of thing, and it's this weird situational thing
where we're like, okay, are we adults in the room
and everybody's giving enthusiastic consent? Or is it sort of
(10:06):
lopsided in some way and manipulative in some way? And
your organization has a process to try to determine intent.
Would that be a way to say it.
Speaker 3 (10:18):
Somewhat? So, people who are credentialed creators we do have,
you know, after all of the trainings that they've taken,
which is proactively trying to prevent harmful behaviors and helping
them navigate ethically complex situations. We have a reporting system
(10:39):
for people who feel that they have been harmed, and
that reporting system includes a hotline that they can call
that is staffed by victim advocates. It includes you can
also fill out a form on our website. We have
a team of professional investigators who will conduct interviews and
get all sides of the story, all the evidence that's available.
(11:01):
Our ethics panel will sit down and parse through it.
You know, did our content creator miss something? Is their
education that they clearly need. So they just need to
hear the perspective of this person so that they can
understand that this behavior in this situation caused this kind
of impact. And so then at the end, our mediations
(11:22):
team will sit down with them and talk with them
about whatever the situation happened to be, what was reported,
What did the person report was the impact on them?
Because clearly, if someone has called us, something has gone wrong,
and any of our credentialed creators don't like if you've
come to us to be credentialed, you don't want to
(11:43):
cause harm, even unintentionally. It may not have, you know,
been what you wanted, but you want to at least
make it right.
Speaker 2 (11:52):
Sure, I get that even those who didn't intend to
blow it, you know, to overreach to make somebody else
feel from endus.
Speaker 3 (12:00):
Leaps signs all the time. When we're interacting with people
that we like, that we have attractions to, we're very
motivated to hear what we want to hear, see what
we want to see. We help people be aware of
how to ethically, you know, navigate situations like that, stay
within their codes of conduct, make sure that they have
(12:21):
affirmative positive consent, and that people can opt out at
any point in time very easily. But you know, when
things go wrong, we're also there to help.
Speaker 2 (12:30):
I like the model for a few reasons. First of all,
and I understand if someone feels that they have been
as someone's acted inappropriately to them or around them, and
they don't feel like anybody's really listening, their first instinct
might be to sound the alarm on the internet, to
go on social media and say, holy shit, this person
(12:52):
did this and this and this, and if you know them,
if your friends, you should, and everybody loses their mind
and then the other person rallies their people. The internet
is an arena for escalation and what you guys provide
is a listening year. You provide tools, and you're kind
of an honest broker. You know, you're you're not one
side or the other. You want to be on the
(13:14):
right side, but you're in many ways on the de
escalation front. And I like that. I really like that
vibe that you guys have.
Speaker 3 (13:24):
De Escalation is like my keyword for the past three months.
Speaker 2 (13:31):
I mean, you've seen what I'm talking about, right, I mean,
people just go online and before you know it, it's
all caps and fuck you and you're dead to me.
And I mean we just go from zero to the
red zone.
Speaker 3 (13:42):
People forget that there's a human being on the other
side and they don't get to see the impact of
their words, which in those situations, if anybody has ever seen,
I feel like most of your listeners have seen at
least one or two instances of a drama exploding, Like
what's happening to those people, all the people involved. They
are being flooded with adrenaline and cortisol. They don't sleep,
(14:04):
they don't eat. It causes severe mental harm, physical harm
to all sides. And then you have thousands of strangers
turning their half formed opinions or their opinions that are
only informed by half truths, you know, turning that against you.
And it's a very stressful and challenging situation to be
(14:27):
in any time you're in it.
Speaker 2 (14:29):
I want to continue with Sarah Tulin of the Creator
Accountability Network. I've got more questions about what to do
when somebody does wrong to us or vice versa. What
happens if we don't think it's fixable, What happens if
we think some people are irredeemable. I don't know. Let's
talk more after this. Are you a fan of true stories,
(14:50):
interesting history, celebrity trivia, true crime, weird news, and you're
going to love my podcast True Stories with Seth Andrews
and I'm your host, Seth Andrews, releasing five minute podcast
vignettes three times a week. Search True Stories with Seth
Andrews on Spreaker and all major podcast apps, or visit
(15:13):
the website True Stories podcast dot com. Thank you so
much for listening today, and thanks for your support on Patreon, Patreon,
dot com, slash. Seth Andrews continuing now with my special guest,
(15:36):
Sarah Toulein, executive director of the Creator Accountability Network. I
think two it's difficult to know, as we are not clairvoyant.
If i'm you know you and I are speaking to someone,
we don't know where they are in their lives. They
may have some extremely raw nerves based on a background
previous abuse, bad relationships, bad experience with another influencer, so
(16:00):
that may have already supercharged their perception of what's going
to happen next. And that's totally valid, but it's not
information that we can really into it because we cannot
read minds. And then if there was someone who did
something just stupid or or they didn't mean to harm,
it doesn't mean they're evil. It just means maybe there's
(16:20):
some education that needs to take place. Some people would
call that a sellout. You know, hey, someone acted inappropriately
to me, and now you're going to give them a pass.
You're going to let them take a workshop, and they're
going to get off the hook with the pad on
the wrist. You know, how dare you? What would you
say to them?
Speaker 3 (16:36):
That's a common criticism of restorative justice is that it
is in some measure of fender centric, So its goal
is not to you know, cancel or get retribution. It's
not an eye for an eye. It is about recognizing,
(16:57):
you know, what laws we're in this person that we
can help them overcome, and how can we help them,
you know, recognize the behavior and its impact, and then
correct the behavior for the future so that they can
stay in the community and be safe and healthy people
to be around, while also looking at the person who
(17:20):
was harmed and helping address their needs. What does it
take for them to feel safe around this person? What
does it take to keep both people in the community
so that we're not having to choose one over the other.
It's not always possible.
Speaker 2 (17:33):
But I mean, I was going to ask Sarah, is
there there's got to be a line? I mean, somebody's
just a douchebag, somebody just to acige horribly to work, somebody,
somebody endangered somebody else. I mean, there's a line.
Speaker 3 (17:46):
I'm very I'm very fortunate and that running the Creator
Accountability Network, the people who come to us specifically to
sign up are asking for that feedback. They are saying, Hey,
if I've harmed somebody, I would like to know about it.
I would actually like to make it better.
Speaker 2 (18:02):
So okay, well, I'm on. I totally get that. I mean,
but beyond our organization it's totally fair. In the past,
if we have seen somebody come forward and they're just
not somebody we want to be around, and we don't
want others to be around in that way because we've
seen a pattern of behaviors. I mean just generally, there's
(18:22):
a line right where you're like, ah, no, you.
Speaker 3 (18:25):
Know, there has to be Those are called boundaries. You
have to set boundaries in any community. You have values,
you have Here's how we're allowed to treat people, Here's
how we're not allowed to treat people, and here are
the boundaries. If you want to be in our community,
you stay within them. And if you are going to
insist on behaving with outside of those boundaries, you are
not a part of the community any longer. The boundaries
(18:46):
are what create the community.
Speaker 2 (18:48):
Talking here with Sarah Tulan, executive director of the Creator
Accountability Network, Well, Sarah, how do you vet the people
that are part of the network.
Speaker 3 (19:00):
People come to us to be credentialed, So if you
are passionate about, you know, having a safe and ethical community,
you can come join. We do not sit down and
come through everybody's content for every last problematic thing they've
ever said or done, but we'll take a cursory look,
like what's the topic of the content, what are the
(19:23):
issues that are likely to arise. So if you've got
culture war issues, let's say, or social justice issues, you're
going to have certain topics and you're going to probably
encounter certain you know, criticisms or be wading into certain waters.
If you make content that's about cars, like, different issues
(19:46):
are at play there. So if you're passionate about what
we do, you can come join. We don't have any
restrictions on belief systems or any other identity.
Speaker 2 (20:00):
Are you saying that anybody in any influencer doing content
on any subject anywhere could come to you or are
you more focused on the secular movement?
Speaker 3 (20:11):
We came from the secular movement a lot of us,
like overwhelmingly just the communities that we were part of,
So naturally that's where people know us. That's where you know,
most of our creators come from. It's a network, so
it spreads the message further and further and further, and
so people who are not secular could absolutely come as
(20:33):
long as their content is still you know, ethical follows
what we would consider it to be like important values
of ours. We're not going to credential Alex Jones, for instance,
unless we sit down with him and go through, like,
you know, all the things that are wrong with his
content and he wants to fix it.
Speaker 2 (20:52):
All that's tough for me, Sarah. That's time. I mean
Alex Jones is.
Speaker 3 (20:58):
Yeah, because Jones came to us and we said, oh, well,
we can't credential you because your content is really, really
really unethical. You want to sit down and talk about
all the you know, things that are wrong with your content,
We can do that.
Speaker 2 (21:12):
Okay, and we can fix Sarah, hang on, all right,
So Alex, let's let's do this. Let's say I love it.
Speaker 3 (21:19):
Let's say credential Alex Jones.
Speaker 2 (21:22):
What would it tay like if you and I I
think are along the same lines that we've all had
terrible ideas of some kind, some worse than others. And
the goal is to rescue people from brainwashing, from bigotrigue,
from hate, from bad behaviors, from from being you know,
problematic in so many The goal is not necessarily to
(21:43):
see everybody decimated, although I'm not convinced everybody can be reached,
we do want to see rescue, right, So I would
allow I got to be so careful because Alex Jones,
to me is just just causes the bile in my mouth.
Just the man is a monster, Okay. Alex Jones has
(22:04):
an epiphany, okay, and realizes how wrong he has been,
and there's a massive sea change in his heart and mind.
He throws himself down at the feet of society and says,
I have done massive amounts of harm. I will commit
the rest of my life to trying to fix some
(22:28):
of what I have broken. And if he was to
do that, help me.
Speaker 3 (22:40):
Justice is hard.
Speaker 2 (22:41):
Help me, Sarah, I mean, does does the does our
door crack open?
Speaker 3 (22:47):
Let me put this in perspective. Let me put this
in perspective, rank you. Restarative justice approaches have been used
in apartheid areas, in places where the side has happened,
where people exist in the same villages and have to
you know, coexist and find ways to move forward together
(23:11):
as a community. It can be used to help people
work through sexual assault, murder of loved ones and family members.
So could we sit down with Alex Jones, And you know,
it's not saying that anyone owes him forgiveness or that
anyone owes him anything at all. It's about him recognizing
(23:35):
the impact that his stuff has had and then figuring out,
how on earth do I go about, you know, untangling
this web I have woven.
Speaker 2 (23:44):
I get this. So there's not a requirement for other
people to say, Okay, well now it's all you know,
no harm, no foul, that it's really about him.
Speaker 3 (23:53):
If you're going to take accountability, you've got to recognize
that that's an action you take. You don't expect anything
from anybody else. You may not get anything from anybody else,
and if you do, you're very lucky. But it's you saying,
regardless of the responses from everybody else, this is what's right,
and this is what I'm going to do to make
(24:15):
it right.
Speaker 2 (24:16):
It's almost like I'd spoken about this a few years ago,
about these former Nazis, right, the white supremacist I forget
his name off the top of my head, Batiata swastika
actually tattooed to his face, and he was just filled
with venom, and in the course of his life realized
that he had been wrong, and he spent a year
(24:36):
and a half having those hate tattoos lasered off of
his body. It was just a horrifying process, but he
endured the whole thing and then committed the rest of
his life to countering the white supremacy and the bigotry
and speaking out against the Klan and doing all those
other things. The people that he had wronged when he
was a racist have no obligation to forgive him or
(24:59):
give him any quarter, but he is now working in
a restorative justice capacity to try to undo the damage
done and to try to speak to better values. Am
I on your page, Sarah?
Speaker 3 (25:12):
Yeah, absolutely, and helping other people also leave those hate
filled spaces and do better.
Speaker 2 (25:19):
Let's just talk philosophically here. I have heard it said,
and I don't think I agree. I understand where it
comes from. But some people say intention doesn't matter, it's
only the results. So if you harm somebody with the
best of intentions, the harm is still real. I think
that's true. Like my mother and father, fundy evangelical, hell
(25:39):
fire preacher type people. They were sincere. They had the
best of intentions to train up a child, but they
did some harm, real harm, and their good intentions don't
negate that. But I think you treat somebody acting with
an intent to help, even if they're wrong or brainwashed them.
(26:00):
I think differently than you would with someone who was
operating with malice. Intention does matter to me? Does it
matter to you?
Speaker 3 (26:12):
I love this question. Intention can be very important to
communicate to the other side. It can help sometimes relieve
some of the pain that comes when somebody thinks that
that impact was actually intended to No, oh, it was
(26:32):
an accident. To some degree, it can help them at
least understand the perspective of the other person. And understanding
the perspective of the other person engaging some empathy, whether
you were the person who caused the harm or the
person who received the harm, just understanding where the other
person is coming from helps you, guys, get to more
(26:55):
of the same page, more of like here's the reality,
and it helps. I don't know how to describe it,
but it helps kind of like sometimes loosen some of
the the hold that that pain has on you. If
that helps. But you know, in terms of the impact,
(27:16):
if you've caused an impact to somebody, you know we
can help you find ways to restore to repair that harm.
Because you don't get out of that just by saying oh,
I didn't mean to You still have to take actions.
You still have to acknowledge and validate that you caused harm.
Speaker 2 (27:39):
Okay, well, let's finish here by really defining what's going on,
so as I understand it and correct me. You got
to use small words with me when you speak, use
your hands, talk to me like you would a child, Sarah. Okay,
So if someone, if somebody just wants to get in
front of it and say whatever I do. I want
to be a good steward like I feel this. I
(28:02):
know so many people in the movement feel this. It's
an honor to do what we do. We know we
are in some ways influencers. We want to make sure
that we are really good stewards of that and remain
accountable because we are public figures setting an example blah
blah blah. And so someone like me comes to you
and I say, look, I will go through your program.
And then if somebody anywhere was to have an issue,
(28:25):
rather than I don't know, nuke me on Facebook or
maybe contact me directly and tell me what a piece
of shit I am or whatever, you would be a
resource where they could actually go through you, and then
you are able to see through the fog of war.
You're able to provide kind of guidelines, and the same
(28:46):
is true for other people if they want to go
through and sort of set themselves up with a tool
set for problem solving and getting in front of all
of this. Have I understood, Sarah?
Speaker 3 (28:59):
Yes? And I want to really emphasize our position as
that neutral third party in between, because if somebody is upset,
sometimes they can come at you with a lot of heat.
They can bring that to us, and we can absorb
that impact instead and just hand the information to the
other person. It can really reduce the instinct to be defensive,
(29:22):
and it can reduce the I don't want to say
splash damage, but like the impact that you receive when
someone comes and calls you a bunch of names in
your inbox to be able to say, anybody who's got
an issue, please go, let can know. I actually want
you to please go. Let can know because they'll help
me parse through it and they'll help me make sure
(29:43):
that I do a good job and that I have
good information. Because I also feel like in this day
and age, people have a lot that matters to them,
and they might come to you with an issue that's
very important to them about your content, but that maybe
isn't quite to big ish to you, getting to connect
(30:03):
you with different you know, resources or education, or just
define where you want your content to bend for people
versus where you've got to say, you know, I do
understand that that's you know, like I've had people say
you shouldn't call anyone stupid. This is a word that
can be ablest, it can be impactful, but other people
(30:25):
are going to draw their lines in different places and say,
you know, it's part of my humor, it's part of
my like vibe, or I just want to be able
to say when I think something is stupid.
Speaker 2 (30:37):
We're not Marjorie Taylor Green appears on my radar and
you will hear the word it's part of my lexicon.
Speaker 3 (30:45):
We we are not micromanagers of these things. These are
things that are for the content creator to decide for themselves.
What kind of content do I.
Speaker 2 (30:55):
Want to create?
Speaker 3 (30:55):
You will naturally curate an audience who likes to listen
to you content, and together you guys figure out where
are our boundaries? What kind of content do we create?
The Creator Accountability Network is extremely supportive of all kinds
of transgressive art. Transgressive arts tiptoes right up to all
(31:16):
the boundaries onlines, and sometimes it crosses over, and we're
there to help people recognize when it's gone too far,
when it's crossed something, when they just didn't know something
and they misstepped.
Speaker 2 (31:27):
Transgressive art is a term I've never heard before. I'm
got to chew on that one. Like I'm the mister
Rogers of the movement, right, Nobody worries about me. I mean,
there occasionally I'll get somebody who gets themselves in a wad,
but really, I'm not the guy that people go to
for controversial content. Doesn't make any sense, you know, just
(31:50):
this vanilla type dude.
Speaker 3 (31:53):
But think of all the comedians that you know, Yeah,
like just being a comedian, a comedian in j general,
you are likely making some sort of transgressive art. You
are making some sort of jokes that are going to
bother somebody.
Speaker 2 (32:09):
I mean, the envelope is there, and part of their
job is to push it and sometimes push through it
and push past it. And I think in a lot
of cases, good for them, right, And in some other cases,
especially when I think George Carlin is talking about, when
they're punching down toward marginalized groups and people under threat,
that's when I think we cross another one of those lines,
(32:30):
but it's situational. I know a lot of it is subjective.
One more short break and then I'm going to connect
you or Sarah will connect you to the Creator Accountability
Network if you want. You can sort of go through
the program either if you create content on YouTube, TikTok, etc.
Or you're on the other end of those streams. Stand
(32:51):
by talking here with Sarah tu Leans as the executive
director of the Creator Accountability Network. How do people participate?
If someone wanted to reach out, contact sign up begin
(33:12):
the process, how would they do so?
Speaker 3 (33:16):
You can go to our website, Creator Accountabilitynetwork dot org.
We've got links all over the place. If you are
a content creator or a community leader, you can sign
up to start the credentialing process. If you are a
community member who's experienced harm, you can call our hotline.
(33:37):
If the person who caused the harm is a credentialed creator,
we can then work our program with our investigators, our
ethics panel, our mediators and help resolve that issue. If
they're not credentialed, you can still make a report. Our
victim advocates can still talk to you on the hotline
and maybe help you find any local resources if you
(33:58):
need so, if you need a crisis, if you need
medical care, if you just need, you know, to talk
through whatever happened. That report can still stay in our database.
We won't do anything with it, but if that person
gets credentialed later on, we can come back and address
that issue.
Speaker 2 (34:16):
Then, last thought, I was just reading an article by
the editor of the Skeptic magazine, and there was somebody
on TikTok who was unfairly editing him or deep faking
him or something endorsing flat earth, and so he had
to publish an article saying this is not me. I
(34:38):
am not a flat earther. So another layer to this
onion is we are moving into the era when anybody
anywhere can be made to do and say anything, and
we've got to somehow navigate what happened and what is
real and who's hiding behind. Oh, I didn't really do it,
it's AI And then what if they didn't really do
(34:59):
it and it's a I mean, I don't know. It's
the wild West out there, Sarah. Do you guys ever
talking about that kind of stuff.
Speaker 3 (35:06):
That's a very interesting question. I've never had to think.
I've never had to think, what if our content creator
did something bad and then claims that it was really
just AI and a deep fake and no I didn't.
Speaker 2 (35:19):
I'm telling you. We saw I think Donald Trump did it.
Somebody had a video record of them saying or doing
something that was either ridiculous or offensive, and it was like, Ah,
that's just Ai. My enemies are going after me. And
it's this weird, strange new world where, you know, beyond
(35:39):
our eyes and ears, we have to be skeptics in
this whole deeper way. I do think it's possible to
determine what has and has not happened, but it's going
to take a lot of due diligence. Fortunately, it sounds
like you guys are really committed, and I love the
idea of the Creator Accountability Network. I'm in sign me up.
Let's you know, let me help. I don't know how
(36:00):
old the program is, but I'd like to be I'd
like to be a part of that. I think it's
pretty cool and I think it sends a message to everybody. Look,
we're all acting in good faith, we all want the
same thing. We're all human, and I think this is
our way of assuring you that that is very much
the case, any final thoughts on the program or the
group before we call it a night, Just.
Speaker 3 (36:23):
To reiterate that the more people who join and sign up,
the more word of us spreads. So you joining, you
having me on, I'm very grateful because it helps other
people hear about us. If anybody who's listening is passionate
about this concept about keeping our community safe and wants
(36:46):
to volunteer with us, we have a lot of needs
for volunteers because we are expanding exponentially, we're growing a lot.
We pay for victim advocacy training for volunteers, So if
you are past about victim advocacy would like to become one,
we can help you become a victim advocate so we
(37:06):
help there be more victim advocates in the world. But
also if you have any skills and investigations, or are
interested in ethics or mediation, or just really good at
managing social media. If you're passionate about our mission at all,
we can find a space for you. You can come
volunteer with us. We've got a volunteer form on our website.
(37:30):
If you're passionate and don't have time to volunteer, but
you have extra money. We are a nonprofit and people
don't pay for our services. We do this work for
free for content creators. We give these trainings for free.
We credential people for free. We do all our investigations,
all our mediation, all our work for free for them.
(37:51):
So we are entirely supported by our community members. So
we need combinations of you know, small dons who donate
monthly on recurring donations or large donations. We just had
a fundraiser in April. We've got another one coming up
in either October or November. So if you want to
(38:12):
support us financially, we really need the help.
Speaker 2 (38:16):
Sarah Tootline of the Creator Accountability Network Creator Accountabilitynetwork dot
org sounds like good stuff to me. Thanks for talking
to us and all my best with the project.
Speaker 3 (38:29):
Thank you so much, Sah.
Speaker 1 (38:30):
Follow The Thinking Atheist on Facebook and Twitter for a
complete archive of podcasts and videos, products like mugs and
t shirts featuring the Thinking Atheist logo, links to atheist
pages and resources, and details on upcoming free thought events
and conventions. Log onto our website, The Thinkingatheist dot com
The Thinking Atheist. It's not a person, it's a symbol,
an idea.
Speaker 2 (00:10):
The population of atheists in this country is going through the.
Speaker 1 (00:13):
Rule, rejecting faith, pursuing knowledge, challenging the sacred. If I
tell the truth, it's because I tell the truth, not because.
Speaker 3 (00:22):
I put my hand on a book and made a.
Speaker 1 (00:24):
Wish and working together for a more rational world.
Speaker 2 (00:29):
Take the risk of thinking, feel so much more happiness.
Truth Usian wisdom will come to you that way.
Speaker 1 (00:35):
Assume nothing, question everything, and start thinking. This is the
Thinking Atheist podcast hosted by Seth Andrews.
Speaker 2 (00:56):
I wanted to have a conversation with Sarah Tulane. She
is the executive director of the Creator Accountability Network. Now
I'm going to talk about what that is, what it does,
and why. Sarah. Welcome, Good to see you, Hi, Seth.
Speaker 1 (01:12):
So.
Speaker 2 (01:14):
Creator meaning content creator for what the secular movements? I mean,
frame the organization, give me the mission statement for lack
of a better word, if you would, sure.
Speaker 3 (01:26):
The Creator Accountability Network is an organization that uses restorative
justice approach to helping content creators. That's where Creator comes from.
Community leaders and members of those communities prevent harmful behavior
and address it.
Speaker 2 (01:40):
When it happens, all right, so let's let's just go there.
We in the secular movement have seen instances where there
have been inappropriate behaviors, even a few instances of predatory behaviors. Right,
we haven't been immune for many of the scandals or
or even just I don't know, just inappropriate stuff that
(02:03):
has been seen, whether it's within a free thought group
or at a convention or something. It's one of the
reasons that a few years ago we saw code of
conduct guidelines posted actually in the programs or near the
entrances of all these things, because we wanted to make
sure that all the bases were covered. Everybody knows what
the rules are. But is that sort of I don't know.
(02:25):
The genesis of all this was that the inspiration we
have seen shit go down, and now we want to
try to get in front of it.
Speaker 3 (02:33):
Quite literally, we have seen shit go down, and we thought,
you know, there are every time something like this goes down,
you think to yourself, how could it have been prevented?
What could have stopped this from happening earlier on? I
see a lot of those conversations happen every time something
like this goes down. What was done to prevent it,
(02:54):
what was done to try to address it. Our organization
does both. We work to prevent harassment and abuse and
unethical behavior, and we work to address it and help
people work through it when it does happen.
Speaker 2 (03:08):
Well, give me some situationals. I heard the word harassment,
and I heard the word unethical behavior. Give me some
examples of the stuff that sort of the radar is
out for. Okay, so.
Speaker 3 (03:21):
There's not a lot of support to help with harassment
and abuse that doesn't actually, let's say, violate the law.
These things are spectrums of behavior where you can go
from just general discomfort, things that we recognize do push
people out of our communities and out of our movements,
(03:42):
all the way up to things that are egregious crimes.
Restorative justice addresses a broad spectrum of things, whether their
crimes or not, so we can address things that are
more minor or more major, things where people are hoping
to receive education to address and prevent future occurrences of
(04:03):
that behavior, and also to help repair harms that have
been caused, whether that's through statements of apology or sharing
education that someone has learned with other people.
Speaker 2 (04:16):
All Right, So one of the I'm going to play
devil's advocate here and everybody go with me. Two words,
witch hunt. All right, find anybody, anybody who's got to
beef hunt with somebody. They're going to come to you
and they're going to be like, that person's terrible, and
then you're going to go and nuke them from orbit
and we're going to destroy their lives. This is probably
one of the first things that we're going to see
(04:38):
in common sections. Let's get in front of that. Is
this the case.
Speaker 3 (04:44):
We actually help prevent witch hunts? We call it more
unsubstantiated accusations, So unsubstantiated does not mean untrue. It just
means we don't know what's going on yet, and accusation
is out there. A lot of times, the court of
public opinion is one of the worst places to litigate
(05:07):
something like this. Even when a harm has occurred. Victims
who try to come forward can find themselves in a
really scary position. A lot of times, if you're coming
forward in a public space, you're coming forward against somebody
who is a leader in the community, who has a
lot of support, and people have a lot of motivated reasoning,
(05:29):
even biases, so there's a lot of motivation to let's say,
go after the character of the person who's coming forward,
or to question what they did, what they said, why
did they say it? So a lot of victim blaming
happens there. And then on the other hand, people who
do want to address these issues and support it will
(05:50):
come out in support of the person making the allegations,
and they'll come after your content creator. Why don't you
understand how this is impacting our move Why don't you
understand how this is pushing people out? Why don't you
understand how this impacted this one person. A lot of
times your community fractures, and what you're left with is
(06:10):
the people who supported the you know, whatever the allegations were,
tend to leave or get really quiet. They don't feel
safe anymore. And the people who stay are the people
who more backed you, but might also have more biases
and might also, you know, be less willing to believe
or hear out somebody who says, hey, something that happened
to me.
Speaker 2 (06:30):
Maybe witch hunt's the wrong word. I mean a lot
of people on a witch hunt weren't just out to
screw somebody over because they were being vindictive. They literally
believed in witches maybe that's a whole other I was
looking sort of groping. For god, I don't want to
use the word groping, let me use a different ter
forgive me, but we've seen you that's not better. That's
(06:51):
somebody goes to a convention and there's a we'll call
it a power dynamic because that's the phrase that is
often used when we've people who are speakers or influencers
who have then traded in on that influence to try
to gain access, even sexual access to an attendee. We
have to admit that this in the past has happened.
(07:15):
And you know, these people did not go to a
convention because they wanted to be hit on. They went
because they wanted to go to the convention and learn
things and have a good time, which brings us back
to the codes of conducts. But when we talk about
those types of inappropriate behaviors, you have seen examples of
the power dynamic and people who have sort of abused
(07:39):
their influence to try to I don't know, invite somebody, Hey,
come up to my room, honey, kind of thing. I mean,
we've seen that happen. Unfortunately, right we have.
Speaker 3 (07:49):
Yeah, the Creator Accountability Network is an opt in model.
So content creators leaders join us, and when they do,
they receive trainings on harassment and abuse prevention and bystander intervention.
But we specifically put them through scenarios where we have
(08:11):
them think what would I do in the scenario, What
does the power dynamic do in this scenario? How does
it impact the person I'm talking to. It's not that
you can never interact with other people. It's not that
you can never forge relationships. It's that you have to
be mentally mindful and aware of your power dynamic within
(08:32):
these situations and what the other person might be there for,
making sure that you are incredibly easy to say no to,
and that you're always seeking positive, affirmative, enthusiastic consent for everything,
for a conversation, for you know, hanging out together at
(08:58):
the bar, for whatever you're doing, that you're welcome.
Speaker 2 (09:01):
It's funny we're both managing our language carefully because the
other side of this coin is, and I've said this
since I have become an activist, you know, we are
all adults in the room and we are going to often,
let's say we are single, or we're looking for a
connection of any kind, we're probably going to find that
(09:22):
in whatever circle that we exist in. So if you
are a secular person, you're an atheist, you or whatever,
and you interact in those circles. A convention might be
part of that circle. You might meet someone and you
develop there's a spark there and before you know what,
you are having a drink and then you say, hey,
would you like to have dinner? And so a lot
(09:43):
of us who were like, well, you know, we talk
about being liberated and getting other people from getting into
our bedrooms and telling us what to do and how
to operate, and you know, it's none of your damn
business kind of thing, and it's this weird situational thing
where we're like, okay, are we adults in the room
and everybody's giving enthusiastic consent? Or is it sort of
(10:06):
lopsided in some way and manipulative in some way? And
your organization has a process to try to determine intent.
Would that be a way to say it.
Speaker 3 (10:18):
Somewhat? So, people who are credentialed creators we do have,
you know, after all of the trainings that they've taken,
which is proactively trying to prevent harmful behaviors and helping
them navigate ethically complex situations. We have a reporting system
(10:39):
for people who feel that they have been harmed, and
that reporting system includes a hotline that they can call
that is staffed by victim advocates. It includes you can
also fill out a form on our website. We have
a team of professional investigators who will conduct interviews and
get all sides of the story, all the evidence that's available.
(11:01):
Our ethics panel will sit down and parse through it.
You know, did our content creator miss something? Is their
education that they clearly need. So they just need to
hear the perspective of this person so that they can
understand that this behavior in this situation caused this kind
of impact. And so then at the end, our mediations
(11:22):
team will sit down with them and talk with them
about whatever the situation happened to be, what was reported,
What did the person report was the impact on them?
Because clearly, if someone has called us, something has gone wrong,
and any of our credentialed creators don't like if you've
come to us to be credentialed, you don't want to
(11:43):
cause harm, even unintentionally. It may not have, you know,
been what you wanted, but you want to at least
make it right.
Speaker 2 (11:52):
Sure, I get that even those who didn't intend to
blow it, you know, to overreach to make somebody else
feel from endus.
Speaker 3 (12:00):
Leaps signs all the time. When we're interacting with people
that we like, that we have attractions to, we're very
motivated to hear what we want to hear, see what
we want to see. We help people be aware of
how to ethically, you know, navigate situations like that, stay
within their codes of conduct, make sure that they have
(12:21):
affirmative positive consent, and that people can opt out at
any point in time very easily. But you know, when
things go wrong, we're also there to help.
Speaker 2 (12:30):
I like the model for a few reasons. First of all,
and I understand if someone feels that they have been
as someone's acted inappropriately to them or around them, and
they don't feel like anybody's really listening, their first instinct
might be to sound the alarm on the internet, to
go on social media and say, holy shit, this person
(12:52):
did this and this and this, and if you know them,
if your friends, you should, and everybody loses their mind
and then the other person rallies their people. The internet
is an arena for escalation and what you guys provide
is a listening year. You provide tools, and you're kind
of an honest broker. You know, you're you're not one
side or the other. You want to be on the
(13:14):
right side, but you're in many ways on the de
escalation front. And I like that. I really like that
vibe that you guys have.
Speaker 3 (13:24):
De Escalation is like my keyword for the past three months.
Speaker 2 (13:31):
I mean, you've seen what I'm talking about, right, I mean,
people just go online and before you know it, it's
all caps and fuck you and you're dead to me.
And I mean we just go from zero to the
red zone.
Speaker 3 (13:42):
People forget that there's a human being on the other
side and they don't get to see the impact of
their words, which in those situations, if anybody has ever seen,
I feel like most of your listeners have seen at
least one or two instances of a drama exploding, Like
what's happening to those people, all the people involved. They
are being flooded with adrenaline and cortisol. They don't sleep,
(14:04):
they don't eat. It causes severe mental harm, physical harm
to all sides. And then you have thousands of strangers
turning their half formed opinions or their opinions that are
only informed by half truths, you know, turning that against you.
And it's a very stressful and challenging situation to be
(14:27):
in any time you're in it.
Speaker 2 (14:29):
I want to continue with Sarah Tulin of the Creator
Accountability Network. I've got more questions about what to do
when somebody does wrong to us or vice versa. What
happens if we don't think it's fixable, What happens if
we think some people are irredeemable. I don't know. Let's
talk more after this. Are you a fan of true stories,
(14:50):
interesting history, celebrity trivia, true crime, weird news, and you're
going to love my podcast True Stories with Seth Andrews
and I'm your host, Seth Andrews, releasing five minute podcast
vignettes three times a week. Search True Stories with Seth
Andrews on Spreaker and all major podcast apps, or visit
(15:13):
the website True Stories podcast dot com. Thank you so
much for listening today, and thanks for your support on Patreon, Patreon,
dot com, slash. Seth Andrews continuing now with my special guest,
(15:36):
Sarah Toulein, executive director of the Creator Accountability Network. I
think two it's difficult to know, as we are not clairvoyant.
If i'm you know you and I are speaking to someone,
we don't know where they are in their lives. They
may have some extremely raw nerves based on a background
previous abuse, bad relationships, bad experience with another influencer, so
(16:00):
that may have already supercharged their perception of what's going
to happen next. And that's totally valid, but it's not
information that we can really into it because we cannot
read minds. And then if there was someone who did
something just stupid or or they didn't mean to harm,
it doesn't mean they're evil. It just means maybe there's
(16:20):
some education that needs to take place. Some people would
call that a sellout. You know, hey, someone acted inappropriately
to me, and now you're going to give them a pass.
You're going to let them take a workshop, and they're
going to get off the hook with the pad on
the wrist. You know, how dare you? What would you
say to them?
Speaker 3 (16:36):
That's a common criticism of restorative justice is that it
is in some measure of fender centric, So its goal
is not to you know, cancel or get retribution. It's
not an eye for an eye. It is about recognizing,
(16:57):
you know, what laws we're in this person that we
can help them overcome, and how can we help them,
you know, recognize the behavior and its impact, and then
correct the behavior for the future so that they can
stay in the community and be safe and healthy people
to be around, while also looking at the person who
(17:20):
was harmed and helping address their needs. What does it
take for them to feel safe around this person? What
does it take to keep both people in the community
so that we're not having to choose one over the other.
It's not always possible.
Speaker 2 (17:33):
But I mean, I was going to ask Sarah, is
there there's got to be a line? I mean, somebody's
just a douchebag, somebody just to acige horribly to work, somebody,
somebody endangered somebody else. I mean, there's a line.
Speaker 3 (17:46):
I'm very I'm very fortunate and that running the Creator
Accountability Network, the people who come to us specifically to
sign up are asking for that feedback. They are saying, Hey,
if I've harmed somebody, I would like to know about it.
I would actually like to make it better.
Speaker 2 (18:02):
So okay, well, I'm on. I totally get that. I mean,
but beyond our organization it's totally fair. In the past,
if we have seen somebody come forward and they're just
not somebody we want to be around, and we don't
want others to be around in that way because we've
seen a pattern of behaviors. I mean just generally, there's
(18:22):
a line right where you're like, ah, no, you.
Speaker 3 (18:25):
Know, there has to be Those are called boundaries. You
have to set boundaries in any community. You have values,
you have Here's how we're allowed to treat people, Here's
how we're not allowed to treat people, and here are
the boundaries. If you want to be in our community,
you stay within them. And if you are going to
insist on behaving with outside of those boundaries, you are
not a part of the community any longer. The boundaries
(18:46):
are what create the community.
Speaker 2 (18:48):
Talking here with Sarah Tulan, executive director of the Creator
Accountability Network, Well, Sarah, how do you vet the people
that are part of the network.
Speaker 3 (19:00):
People come to us to be credentialed, So if you
are passionate about, you know, having a safe and ethical community,
you can come join. We do not sit down and
come through everybody's content for every last problematic thing they've
ever said or done, but we'll take a cursory look,
like what's the topic of the content, what are the
(19:23):
issues that are likely to arise. So if you've got
culture war issues, let's say, or social justice issues, you're
going to have certain topics and you're going to probably
encounter certain you know, criticisms or be wading into certain waters.
If you make content that's about cars, like, different issues
(19:46):
are at play there. So if you're passionate about what
we do, you can come join. We don't have any
restrictions on belief systems or any other identity.
Speaker 2 (20:00):
Are you saying that anybody in any influencer doing content
on any subject anywhere could come to you or are
you more focused on the secular movement?
Speaker 3 (20:11):
We came from the secular movement a lot of us,
like overwhelmingly just the communities that we were part of,
So naturally that's where people know us. That's where you know,
most of our creators come from. It's a network, so
it spreads the message further and further and further, and
so people who are not secular could absolutely come as
(20:33):
long as their content is still you know, ethical follows
what we would consider it to be like important values
of ours. We're not going to credential Alex Jones, for instance,
unless we sit down with him and go through, like,
you know, all the things that are wrong with his
content and he wants to fix it.
Speaker 2 (20:52):
All that's tough for me, Sarah. That's time. I mean
Alex Jones is.
Speaker 3 (20:58):
Yeah, because Jones came to us and we said, oh, well,
we can't credential you because your content is really, really
really unethical. You want to sit down and talk about
all the you know, things that are wrong with your content,
We can do that.
Speaker 2 (21:12):
Okay, and we can fix Sarah, hang on, all right,
So Alex, let's let's do this. Let's say I love it.
Speaker 3 (21:19):
Let's say credential Alex Jones.
Speaker 2 (21:22):
What would it tay like if you and I I
think are along the same lines that we've all had
terrible ideas of some kind, some worse than others. And
the goal is to rescue people from brainwashing, from bigotrigue,
from hate, from bad behaviors, from from being you know,
problematic in so many The goal is not necessarily to
(21:43):
see everybody decimated, although I'm not convinced everybody can be reached,
we do want to see rescue, right, So I would
allow I got to be so careful because Alex Jones,
to me is just just causes the bile in my mouth.
Just the man is a monster, Okay. Alex Jones has
(22:04):
an epiphany, okay, and realizes how wrong he has been,
and there's a massive sea change in his heart and mind.
He throws himself down at the feet of society and says,
I have done massive amounts of harm. I will commit
the rest of my life to trying to fix some
(22:28):
of what I have broken. And if he was to
do that, help me.
Speaker 3 (22:40):
Justice is hard.
Speaker 2 (22:41):
Help me, Sarah, I mean, does does the does our
door crack open?
Speaker 3 (22:47):
Let me put this in perspective. Let me put this
in perspective, rank you. Restarative justice approaches have been used
in apartheid areas, in places where the side has happened,
where people exist in the same villages and have to
you know, coexist and find ways to move forward together
(23:11):
as a community. It can be used to help people
work through sexual assault, murder of loved ones and family members.
So could we sit down with Alex Jones, And you know,
it's not saying that anyone owes him forgiveness or that
anyone owes him anything at all. It's about him recognizing
(23:35):
the impact that his stuff has had and then figuring out,
how on earth do I go about, you know, untangling
this web I have woven.
Speaker 2 (23:44):
I get this. So there's not a requirement for other
people to say, Okay, well now it's all you know,
no harm, no foul, that it's really about him.
Speaker 3 (23:53):
If you're going to take accountability, you've got to recognize
that that's an action you take. You don't expect anything
from anybody else. You may not get anything from anybody else,
and if you do, you're very lucky. But it's you saying,
regardless of the responses from everybody else, this is what's right,
and this is what I'm going to do to make
(24:15):
it right.
Speaker 2 (24:16):
It's almost like I'd spoken about this a few years ago,
about these former Nazis, right, the white supremacist I forget
his name off the top of my head, Batiata swastika
actually tattooed to his face, and he was just filled
with venom, and in the course of his life realized
that he had been wrong, and he spent a year
(24:36):
and a half having those hate tattoos lasered off of
his body. It was just a horrifying process, but he
endured the whole thing and then committed the rest of
his life to countering the white supremacy and the bigotry
and speaking out against the Klan and doing all those
other things. The people that he had wronged when he
was a racist have no obligation to forgive him or
(24:59):
give him any quarter, but he is now working in
a restorative justice capacity to try to undo the damage
done and to try to speak to better values. Am
I on your page, Sarah?
Speaker 3 (25:12):
Yeah, absolutely, and helping other people also leave those hate
filled spaces and do better.
Speaker 2 (25:19):
Let's just talk philosophically here. I have heard it said,
and I don't think I agree. I understand where it
comes from. But some people say intention doesn't matter, it's
only the results. So if you harm somebody with the
best of intentions, the harm is still real. I think
that's true. Like my mother and father, fundy evangelical, hell
(25:39):
fire preacher type people. They were sincere. They had the
best of intentions to train up a child, but they
did some harm, real harm, and their good intentions don't
negate that. But I think you treat somebody acting with
an intent to help, even if they're wrong or brainwashed them.
(26:00):
I think differently than you would with someone who was
operating with malice. Intention does matter to me? Does it
matter to you?
Speaker 3 (26:12):
I love this question. Intention can be very important to
communicate to the other side. It can help sometimes relieve
some of the pain that comes when somebody thinks that
that impact was actually intended to No, oh, it was
(26:32):
an accident. To some degree, it can help them at
least understand the perspective of the other person. And understanding
the perspective of the other person engaging some empathy, whether
you were the person who caused the harm or the
person who received the harm, just understanding where the other
person is coming from helps you, guys, get to more
(26:55):
of the same page, more of like here's the reality,
and it helps. I don't know how to describe it,
but it helps kind of like sometimes loosen some of
the the hold that that pain has on you. If
that helps. But you know, in terms of the impact,
(27:16):
if you've caused an impact to somebody, you know we
can help you find ways to restore to repair that harm.
Because you don't get out of that just by saying oh,
I didn't mean to You still have to take actions.
You still have to acknowledge and validate that you caused harm.
Speaker 2 (27:39):
Okay, well, let's finish here by really defining what's going on,
so as I understand it and correct me. You got
to use small words with me when you speak, use
your hands, talk to me like you would a child, Sarah. Okay,
So if someone, if somebody just wants to get in
front of it and say whatever I do. I want
to be a good steward like I feel this. I
(28:02):
know so many people in the movement feel this. It's
an honor to do what we do. We know we
are in some ways influencers. We want to make sure
that we are really good stewards of that and remain
accountable because we are public figures setting an example blah
blah blah. And so someone like me comes to you
and I say, look, I will go through your program.
And then if somebody anywhere was to have an issue,
(28:25):
rather than I don't know, nuke me on Facebook or
maybe contact me directly and tell me what a piece
of shit I am or whatever, you would be a
resource where they could actually go through you, and then
you are able to see through the fog of war.
You're able to provide kind of guidelines, and the same
(28:46):
is true for other people if they want to go
through and sort of set themselves up with a tool
set for problem solving and getting in front of all
of this. Have I understood, Sarah?
Speaker 3 (28:59):
Yes? And I want to really emphasize our position as
that neutral third party in between, because if somebody is upset,
sometimes they can come at you with a lot of heat.
They can bring that to us, and we can absorb
that impact instead and just hand the information to the
other person. It can really reduce the instinct to be defensive,
(29:22):
and it can reduce the I don't want to say
splash damage, but like the impact that you receive when
someone comes and calls you a bunch of names in
your inbox to be able to say, anybody who's got
an issue, please go, let can know. I actually want
you to please go. Let can know because they'll help
me parse through it and they'll help me make sure
(29:43):
that I do a good job and that I have
good information. Because I also feel like in this day
and age, people have a lot that matters to them,
and they might come to you with an issue that's
very important to them about your content, but that maybe
isn't quite to big ish to you, getting to connect
(30:03):
you with different you know, resources or education, or just
define where you want your content to bend for people
versus where you've got to say, you know, I do
understand that that's you know, like I've had people say
you shouldn't call anyone stupid. This is a word that
can be ablest, it can be impactful, but other people
(30:25):
are going to draw their lines in different places and say,
you know, it's part of my humor, it's part of
my like vibe, or I just want to be able
to say when I think something is stupid.
Speaker 2 (30:37):
We're not Marjorie Taylor Green appears on my radar and
you will hear the word it's part of my lexicon.
Speaker 3 (30:45):
We we are not micromanagers of these things. These are
things that are for the content creator to decide for themselves.
What kind of content do I.
Speaker 2 (30:55):
Want to create?
Speaker 3 (30:55):
You will naturally curate an audience who likes to listen
to you content, and together you guys figure out where
are our boundaries? What kind of content do we create?
The Creator Accountability Network is extremely supportive of all kinds
of transgressive art. Transgressive arts tiptoes right up to all
(31:16):
the boundaries onlines, and sometimes it crosses over, and we're
there to help people recognize when it's gone too far,
when it's crossed something, when they just didn't know something
and they misstepped.
Speaker 2 (31:27):
Transgressive art is a term I've never heard before. I'm
got to chew on that one. Like I'm the mister
Rogers of the movement, right, Nobody worries about me. I mean,
there occasionally I'll get somebody who gets themselves in a wad,
but really, I'm not the guy that people go to
for controversial content. Doesn't make any sense, you know, just
(31:50):
this vanilla type dude.
Speaker 3 (31:53):
But think of all the comedians that you know, Yeah,
like just being a comedian, a comedian in j general,
you are likely making some sort of transgressive art. You
are making some sort of jokes that are going to
bother somebody.
Speaker 2 (32:09):
I mean, the envelope is there, and part of their
job is to push it and sometimes push through it
and push past it. And I think in a lot
of cases, good for them, right, And in some other cases,
especially when I think George Carlin is talking about, when
they're punching down toward marginalized groups and people under threat,
that's when I think we cross another one of those lines,
(32:30):
but it's situational. I know a lot of it is subjective.
One more short break and then I'm going to connect
you or Sarah will connect you to the Creator Accountability
Network if you want. You can sort of go through
the program either if you create content on YouTube, TikTok, etc.
Or you're on the other end of those streams. Stand
(32:51):
by talking here with Sarah tu Leans as the executive
director of the Creator Accountability Network. How do people participate?
If someone wanted to reach out, contact sign up begin
(33:12):
the process, how would they do so?
Speaker 3 (33:16):
You can go to our website, Creator Accountabilitynetwork dot org.
We've got links all over the place. If you are
a content creator or a community leader, you can sign
up to start the credentialing process. If you are a
community member who's experienced harm, you can call our hotline.
(33:37):
If the person who caused the harm is a credentialed creator,
we can then work our program with our investigators, our
ethics panel, our mediators and help resolve that issue. If
they're not credentialed, you can still make a report. Our
victim advocates can still talk to you on the hotline
and maybe help you find any local resources if you
(33:58):
need so, if you need a crisis, if you need
medical care, if you just need, you know, to talk
through whatever happened. That report can still stay in our database.
We won't do anything with it, but if that person
gets credentialed later on, we can come back and address
that issue.
Speaker 2 (34:16):
Then, last thought, I was just reading an article by
the editor of the Skeptic magazine, and there was somebody
on TikTok who was unfairly editing him or deep faking
him or something endorsing flat earth, and so he had
to publish an article saying this is not me. I
(34:38):
am not a flat earther. So another layer to this
onion is we are moving into the era when anybody
anywhere can be made to do and say anything, and
we've got to somehow navigate what happened and what is
real and who's hiding behind. Oh, I didn't really do it,
it's AI And then what if they didn't really do
(34:59):
it and it's a I mean, I don't know. It's
the wild West out there, Sarah. Do you guys ever
talking about that kind of stuff.
Speaker 3 (35:06):
That's a very interesting question. I've never had to think.
I've never had to think, what if our content creator
did something bad and then claims that it was really
just AI and a deep fake and no I didn't.
Speaker 2 (35:19):
I'm telling you. We saw I think Donald Trump did it.
Somebody had a video record of them saying or doing
something that was either ridiculous or offensive, and it was like, Ah,
that's just Ai. My enemies are going after me. And
it's this weird, strange new world where, you know, beyond
(35:39):
our eyes and ears, we have to be skeptics in
this whole deeper way. I do think it's possible to
determine what has and has not happened, but it's going
to take a lot of due diligence. Fortunately, it sounds
like you guys are really committed, and I love the
idea of the Creator Accountability Network. I'm in sign me up.
Let's you know, let me help. I don't know how
(36:00):
old the program is, but I'd like to be I'd
like to be a part of that. I think it's
pretty cool and I think it sends a message to everybody. Look,
we're all acting in good faith, we all want the
same thing. We're all human, and I think this is
our way of assuring you that that is very much
the case, any final thoughts on the program or the
group before we call it a night, Just.
Speaker 3 (36:23):
To reiterate that the more people who join and sign up,
the more word of us spreads. So you joining, you
having me on, I'm very grateful because it helps other
people hear about us. If anybody who's listening is passionate
about this concept about keeping our community safe and wants
(36:46):
to volunteer with us, we have a lot of needs
for volunteers because we are expanding exponentially, we're growing a lot.
We pay for victim advocacy training for volunteers, So if
you are past about victim advocacy would like to become one,
we can help you become a victim advocate so we
(37:06):
help there be more victim advocates in the world. But
also if you have any skills and investigations, or are
interested in ethics or mediation, or just really good at
managing social media. If you're passionate about our mission at all,
we can find a space for you. You can come
volunteer with us. We've got a volunteer form on our website.
(37:30):
If you're passionate and don't have time to volunteer, but
you have extra money. We are a nonprofit and people
don't pay for our services. We do this work for
free for content creators. We give these trainings for free.
We credential people for free. We do all our investigations,
all our mediation, all our work for free for them.
(37:51):
So we are entirely supported by our community members. So
we need combinations of you know, small dons who donate
monthly on recurring donations or large donations. We just had
a fundraiser in April. We've got another one coming up
in either October or November. So if you want to
(38:12):
support us financially, we really need the help.
Speaker 2 (38:16):
Sarah Tootline of the Creator Accountability Network Creator Accountabilitynetwork dot
org sounds like good stuff to me. Thanks for talking
to us and all my best with the project.
Speaker 3 (38:29):
Thank you so much, Sah.
Speaker 1 (38:30):
Follow The Thinking Atheist on Facebook and Twitter for a
complete archive of podcasts and videos, products like mugs and
t shirts featuring the Thinking Atheist logo, links to atheist
pages and resources, and details on upcoming free thought events
and conventions. Log onto our website, The Thinkingatheist dot com
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Law & Order: Criminal Justice System - Season 1 & Season 2
Season Two Out Now! Law & Order: Criminal Justice System tells the real stories behind the landmark cases that have shaped how the most dangerous and influential criminals in America are prosecuted. In its second season, the series tackles the threat of terrorism in the United States. From the rise of extremist political groups in the 60s to domestic lone wolves in the modern day, we explore how organizations like the FBI and Joint Terrorism Take Force have evolved to fight back against a multitude of terrorist threats.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com