August 26, 2025 • 53 mins
April Ajoy is a Christian. She's also a humanist activist on the front lines against harmful fundamentalism and Christian nationalism. An atheist and a Christian are allies? Go figure.
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Episode Transcript
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the audio of a video conversation I had with the
very special guest. The video to watch is in the
show notes of this broadcast. April A. Joy and I
(02:09):
are We found a little conference room, a place to
have a conversation as we attend the Nashville Nuns like
not nuns, Catholic nuns, but nuns as in No Religion
Nashville Nuns Conference Nanocon twenty twenty five. And I had
to talk to her because she's on the speaking roster
and we're on a panel together in April high How
are you?
Speaker 3 (02:29):
I'm good? Are you?
Speaker 2 (02:31):
You are not an atheist? You are a Christian? Is
that right?
Speaker 3 (02:37):
Correct? Yeah? I'm in the lions Den right now.
Speaker 2 (02:41):
What are you doing here? You're not a nun? What
are you doing here?
Speaker 3 (02:44):
I'm trying to win souls. I'm just kidding.
Speaker 2 (02:48):
Come out lackless, dable because my plan the whole time.
Speaker 3 (02:52):
Yeah, No, we're here to talk about Christian nationalism because
I feel like right now, as sad as it is,
I have more in common with you than I do
a lot of mega Christian nationalists right now, and I
feel like shared values can go a long way to
help stop the Christian nationalism that is taking over our
(03:12):
Guess well, I feel the same way.
Speaker 2 (03:14):
A lot of my fellow is the anti theists struggle
with that. Why would you partner? Why would you stand
shoulder to shoulder with a religious person, religious organizations, etc.
They're part of the problem. If you are a Christian,
then in a way, you're giving cover to the Christian nationalist.
How would you respond to that?
Speaker 3 (03:35):
Yeah, I hear that argument, and I understand where we're
coming from. And also, one, I am a Christian and
I feel like a lot of us can't help but
believe what we believe. If I said I wasn't a believer,
I wouldn't be true to myself. And also, on the
more practical standpoint, we live in a country where Christianity
(04:00):
is kind of in the blood. Christian nationalism, white supremacy, evangelicalism,
it's all tied in together and We're not going to
fight that and be able to stop that without also
using Christianity, in my opinion, because I don't know if
you've ever talked to I'm sure you have. You've talked
to fists and more fundamentalists Christian you can't use logic,
(04:23):
you can't use facts, and you can't use a you know,
someone who is going by brain and thought. You can't
use those tactics. You have to use the Bible. And
I feel like the best way to stop it is
to use their own book against them, which is also
my book, because there are multiple ways to interpret the
(04:44):
Scripture that are not fundamentalists and literal.
Speaker 2 (04:46):
All right, I'm going to be that guy in the
comments section. If you're a Christian and you can't reach
your Christian with logic, then we can't reach you.
Speaker 3 (04:54):
No, you can't reach me.
Speaker 2 (04:56):
I mean, I'm just saying if they said, well, you're
not going to reach Christians or you're not going to
reach Christian nationalists by using facts, did I hear that? Right?
Speaker 3 (05:05):
Correct? We don't care about facts, all right, we as
in fundamentalists.
Speaker 2 (05:11):
So tell me about your Christianity. How do you interpret it?
Speaker 3 (05:18):
I mean, I hold my beliefs very loosely. I believe
in Jesus, I have prayer life of spiritual life. But
I'm not trying to tell you that you're wrong and
I'm right, Like I don't I hold I have a
very big tent approach to faith in Jesus and Christianity
(05:40):
as the language that I have because it's the culture
I grew up in. It's the faith that I was
raised in, and that's just the language that I use.
But I am not exclusive in believing that my way
is the only true path to God or truth or
the universe. And I think every belief system is valid.
Speaker 2 (06:01):
I heard you say earlier that you are a Red
letter Christian.
Speaker 3 (06:04):
What do you mean? I like, follow the teachings of Jesus,
and I do think the Red Letters which are you know,
there's Bibles that the words of Jesus are written and read,
and if you just take that, it is the kryptonite
to a lot of Christian nationalism teaching and rhetoric that
we see today.
Speaker 2 (06:23):
You and I are talking about Christian nationalism on a
panel later, and I'm going to get to that in
just second, And I'm not going after you. I'm just
curious I think you and I are engaging each other
in good faith, and I'm fair game, so come after
me as well. But you know, when Adam was created,
he was given dominion over the earth. We see the
Old Testament is filled with tribal wars as God's chosen
(06:45):
people were, you know, taking ground and imposing God's law.
You know, the great commission is go yee into all
the world and make disciples. So dominionism seems to be
baked in to literal biblical Christianity. Do I have that wrong?
Or you would? Do you see it differently?
Speaker 3 (07:06):
No? I think if you're taking the Bible as literal,
as the literal word of God, then yes, I think
you would come away with that. But even doing that,
there's conflicting world views within the text. There's conflicting scripture
within the text, which is why I don't believe that
anybody actually takes the Bible literally. It would be impossible.
Speaker 2 (07:26):
Well, I guess it was it who said that follow
every command in the Christian Bible starting in Genesis, the
last one to go to jail wins, right, because you're
talking about owning slaves and executing disobedient kids and all that, right.
Speaker 3 (07:41):
Yeah, no. And I'm fully of the belief that you
can interpret the Bible to oppress people, as we've seen
throughout history, and you can also use the Bible to
bring liberation and to bring freedom. And I think you
can choose which one you want to do. Because everybody
cherry picks. Some of us just admit it.
Speaker 2 (08:02):
So the least of these ye and blessed, are the meek,
and be charitable and kind and don't take vengeance and
tell the truth. And the best version of Jesus is
something that speaks to you.
Speaker 3 (08:16):
Yes, yeah, I find the teachings of Jesus very noble
and something that I aspire to be like and just
being a good human being and treating other human beings
as human beings and not being dehumanizing.
Speaker 2 (08:32):
Well, what about the Jesus and Matthew that said, I
have not come to bring peace but a sword. I've
come to turn a father against a son, a mother
against their daughter. You know, Jesus wasn't always love and light.
Do you have those discussions with yourself about you know,
the nature, the three dimensional nature of Christ.
Speaker 3 (08:52):
I mean, yeah, I've definitely thought through a lot of
that stuff. I would I just hold a lot of
those scriptures. I don't believe that everything is literal and
when it was. I mean, the Gospels were written so
much later too than when Jesus.
Speaker 2 (09:09):
Passed, So it's an imperfect text written by man. But
you can sort of filter through to find the diamonds.
I don't know if that's an oversimplification, but you know,
to find the good stuff.
Speaker 3 (09:21):
Yeah, I mean I think for me, I don't. The
Bible to me is more the story of God. It's
not the literal word of God that a lot of
evangelicals believe. To me, there can be a lot of
good meaning that comes from it, there can be some
bad meaning that comes from it, depending on how you
interpret it and the lens in which you interpret the scripture.
(09:41):
I don't. I honestly just don't care, not much about
what I so.
Speaker 2 (09:47):
The God who said gays deserve execution and all that stuff,
This is a constructive man. It is not the God
that speaks to you, the Jesus that lives in your heart,
your personal relationship. God would never do that.
Speaker 3 (10:00):
Well, yeah, but I would also push back that I
don't believe the text says in the interpretation that you
just said, Like I feel like a lot of.
Speaker 2 (10:09):
Man shall not lie with another man is right.
Speaker 3 (10:11):
But there was no orientation in that. And then Ezekiel
comes back and says, this is the sin of your
sister Sawdom, that they were overfed, or that they ignored
the poor and were not inhospitable. So I think a
lot of the conversations that I would have with a
lot of atheists, and like a lot of arguments that
atheists have about the scripture, first of all, I agree
with like I think those are accurate if you're talking
(10:34):
to someone who interprets it in that fundamentalist, literalist way.
But I don't interpret it that way. And there's a
I mean universalism I would say is probably what I'm
more likely ascribed to, like Christian universalism, with the universal Christ,
where God can meet anybody where they're at, regardless of
their belief system, and we all have different languages for
(10:56):
who God is. And so I think I just in differently.
So a lot of arguments that you or a lot
of atheist or agnostics would have, I agree with them,
and also don't interpret it that way. And it doesn't
really have a deep impact on my personal spirituality.
Speaker 2 (11:16):
If Jesus was sitting in your chair, though, I would
ask Jesus, why the ambiguity? Why don't you just come
down and explain it to us? Why would we need
to interpret? Why are the thousands of splinterings of the religion,
you know, I mean, the whole world is looking up going,
please give us some clarity. I would like be like Jesus,
you know, fix this, like explain it, and I mean
(11:39):
you can understand that, right, I mean the frustration maybe
that you have had where you're like, I'm not sure
what this means. I struggle with it. We all have struggles.
You'd be like, Jesus, your God, come down here and
freaking explain it in a way that we can all
understand with no ambiguity. That's fair, isn't it.
Speaker 3 (11:54):
No. I really agree with that, And I think people
that say, well, the Bible is clear, that's just the
Bible's not clear at all. If it were clear, there
wouldn't be over forty five thousand Christian denominations in the world.
Speaker 2 (12:07):
You and I are allies, we are teammates. Below as
people's minds, I can hear heads exploding YouTube especially, They're
going to come after me and say, what are you doing?
And I just literally want to sit them down and say,
April is my hero. She and I share values. She
(12:29):
is on the front lines against Christian nationalism, which I've
come to the point in my own life, April, where
if you hold a personal belief, we can have those discussions. Right,
You and I disagree on theology, but we share values, right,
and our humanity is the most important part of that conversation.
You'd agree with.
Speaker 3 (12:49):
That, right absolutely. And to me, I think beliefs are secondary.
I think what you believe doesn't really matter. It's an
intangible But.
Speaker 2 (12:57):
Doesn't what you believe impact how you act? Doesn't one
propel itself and do action? I mean what I believe
affects what I do and say yes, but.
Speaker 3 (13:08):
I think so many people, including me at one point,
but we can get so hung up on well, what
does this verse say and how do you apply that?
And what about this belief? And what do you believe
about creation or the beginning of the world or afterlife
and all these things? And I really think I think
it's beautiful that we can have an exchange of beliefs,
But at the end of the day, none of us
(13:29):
know what's going to happen when we die. You know,
we all believe, we believe nothing's going to happen, or
we believe we're going to heaven, but none of us know.
And I think that's why. I mean, it's like inintangible
because we can have beliefs, but I care far more
how people live. What people do are actions. And to me,
(13:51):
if you have a belief that I think is weird
and ridiculous, but you are out there fighting for queer
inclusion in the world, I'm like, great, I don't care
that you believe in whatever it is.
Speaker 2 (14:06):
I would like I think my afterlife, I'd like to
be reincarnated as a dog in my own house because
they live the best lives ever. Like you know, I
would just want to be pampered and spoiled in that way.
Total digression. I don't know you an animal person. You know.
Speaker 3 (14:21):
It's funny. We actually have a cat that showed up
on our porch this past Christmas, and my spouse, Beacher,
has always been allergic to cats, so we were like, no,
can't have this cat. But it was really a Christmas
miracle because Beatri's not allergic to this cat, and now
the cat has claimed us as her family.
Speaker 2 (14:41):
Like the dander has been miracles, not to be able
to go into the nose and affect the allergies, the sinuses.
Speaker 3 (14:48):
Right, that's why I'm a Christian.
Speaker 2 (14:52):
Tell me about your book. What's it called? What does
it do?
Speaker 3 (14:55):
Yeah, it's called Star Spangled Jesus Leaving Christian Nationalism and
Finding a True Faith. But I've had a lot of
atheists that read it. It's not preachy, I promise, no, no, no.
Speaker 2 (15:04):
As a setup. I've read the book and I appreciate
the book. So you were hardcore at one point you
were a Bible literalist. The country belongs to Jesus. I
don't know where did you feel. One vibe I get
with Christian nationalism now is I don't care what the
rest of the world does. I only care about us.
(15:25):
And they talk about these borders they subjectively drawn. I
mean they were born, they were drawn by men, right,
But for some reason these borders are sacrisanct. So if
I'm on, if I'm born on this side of the line,
somehow I'm better than someone born on the other side
of them. Was there any of that it was part
of your journey or no?
Speaker 3 (15:43):
Yeah? I mean I was very republican, so why can't
they're coming and take I remember Jesus was.
Speaker 2 (15:49):
A right wing capitalist kind of thing.
Speaker 3 (15:51):
Then, Oh yeah, I mean it's it's wild being on
this side looking back, because the cognitive dissonance is so
very obvious. But yeah, I believed in Jesus was a
huge Jesus person. You know, it's not a religion, it's
a relationship, it's not a religion. Right, So really I
still am a religious man in that definition.
Speaker 2 (16:14):
That's a whole other convers that's a whole other interview,
and I'm not taking that bait. So you used to
be a Christian nationalist, please continue your head.
Speaker 3 (16:22):
Yes, So you know, we believed love God, love people,
although exclusions definitely applied, and then vote Republican. So we
believed that true Christians had to vote Republicans, that Republicans
had Christianity best in mind. And that was mainly based
on gay marriage and abortion at the time. And we
were also very pro gun and pro death penalty. Oddly enough,
(16:47):
because we were also proleged.
Speaker 2 (16:49):
We were the same way.
Speaker 3 (16:49):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (16:50):
Right. It was kind of an Old Testament judgment justice
eye for an eye kind of you kill somebody will
kill you back.
Speaker 3 (16:56):
Yeah, exactly, when I was in grad school, I campaigned
for Mitt Romney unofficially. He didn't ask me to, but
I was very fired up because I watched that Danesh
Desuza Obama twenty sixteen doc and it was like the
end of the world, socialism is coming, and I really
thought that immigrants were going to still a job that
(17:18):
I didn't have yet because I was still in college.
So I was like all riled up and really thought
that like the end of the world was coming if
Obama won again.
Speaker 2 (17:28):
Like abortion equals murder, that's what. So I think a
lot of people who are they've joined the MAGA movement
or they're on the train. Even if they're you know,
in the caboose, they're able to or they are willing
to rationalize every other horrible thing because as long as
we're not murdering babies, whatever the Democrats do is worse. Yep,
(17:53):
was that the vibe like the Demo. Whatever the Republican does,
even if it's horrible, it's not as bad as ordering kids.
So I'm going to vote Republican.
Speaker 3 (18:02):
Yes, yes, it's also based on I mean, I was
only ever taught a right wing view of abortion, so
I was only taught a very sensationalized story. You know,
women carrying full term babies and choosing in the ninth
month to abort their healthy baby, willy nilly.
Speaker 2 (18:20):
Like, and the liberal doctor twirling their mustache going.
Speaker 3 (18:23):
Ah ah exactly. You know, people were just thought that
people were having abortions for fun, for funzies, and you know, graphic.
I went to a hell house when I was twelve.
Speaker 2 (18:36):
Explain what a hell house is for people.
Speaker 3 (18:38):
A hellhouse is a haunted house, but it's put on
by churches, so instead of like zombies and ghosts or
Michael Myers, it's literal biblical demons and like deadly sins.
And then you have teens that get dragged to hell.
Very traumatizing actually. But the very first room in the
hell house that I went to wasn't abortion room. And
(19:01):
you had a girl, she was probably fifteen or sixteen,
laying in a hospital bed.
Speaker 2 (19:07):
Just so much blood, blood right between your legs.
Speaker 3 (19:11):
Between your legs, and it was like squirting. I think
they had some kind of like sprinkler system back there.
And you hear the doctor and he's like, we're having
trouble with the abortion, and it's like we're we're all
these these sirens go off like we're gonna lose her,
and then they pull out. It looked like it was
like a full size baby doll, like wait, fetus, yes,
(19:35):
but it was not a fetus. It looked like, I mean,
it was a baby doll, but it was like the
size of like an actual like six month nine month
baby that was coming out of her. And so then
she dies and the baby dies, and then and then
it like lights go off and you're burn because they're dead,
and then you see the like demons in the background,
they're like, eh, another one that we convinced my body
(19:57):
my choice was about women's rights, and then they drag
her to hell and she's screaming.
Speaker 2 (20:03):
And a lot of those came out of the same
template we had. They would have like the gang shooting.
There was the suicide room. Did you guys have that
where like someone's in there and you can see their
suicide on a TV and their bodies laying on the
bed and it was a scared straight thing, right, They
would terrify you. Did yours have like evangelical salvation counselors
(20:23):
at the back door when you were done?
Speaker 3 (20:24):
Oh yeah, there was like prayer all throughout it, and
then you're awesolly. You're also constantly reminded that this could
be real, This will be real unless you repent, and
then they give you lots of chances to do so.
Speaker 2 (20:38):
It's really abusive, isn't it. I mean, that's a worthy
God would not terrify children into I don't know, acquiescence, obedience,
blind obedience. You know it's essentially loved me or else right.
Speaker 3 (20:55):
Yeah, no, I completely agree. I don't believe in that God.
Speaker 2 (20:58):
I know that I'm vibing. I'm vibing more with April A. Joy,
the author of the book Star Spangled Jesus. She was
also featured in part two of the Amazon documentary Shiny
Happy People. And So we're going to continue our discussion next.
(21:26):
So glad you're here, So glad you are listening. This
is the audio of a video interview I recorded a
couple of weeks ago in Nashville with a Christian who
is fighting Christian nationalism. April A. Joy. You look around today, April,
(21:46):
I mean, I I must have been so naive ten
years ago. I thought, well, the rise of the nons
are the seculars, the humanists, the non fundies. Okay, I
saw this statistically, and I thought, well, we're not going back,
We're not this, you know, we're a white supremacy. They're
fringe and all these types of things, and then of
course the whole freaking the world's on fire. Yeah, did
(22:10):
you go through any of that? Did you think, hey,
things are getting better? And then you looked around like
you were you just witnessed a huge train wreck?
Speaker 3 (22:19):
I mean, come on, yeah, I feel like well, I
thought the world was kind of starting to end when
Obama was president.
Speaker 2 (22:28):
Now, how wait, when did you come out of your fundamentalism?
Speaker 3 (22:31):
Well, it was in stages. I think when you start deconstructing,
you don't know you are. You know, you kind of
just start questioning things that don't make sense quietly because
you're talking about it's taboo. So I mean, I would
say I started questioning different theological things, like more about
my Pentecostal background when my dad passed away in twenty eleven,
(22:56):
because we were Pentecostal, so we believed in miracles and
that you had enough faith that God would give you
what you asked for. So he was diagnosed in May,
passed away in September. I knew I could not have
had more faith and God just didn't do anything. So
I was like, well, that's wrong, but couldn't really express
(23:17):
that out loud yet because Christians around sure.
Speaker 2 (23:21):
They would have literally circled you and said danger.
Speaker 3 (23:25):
Oh yeah, well, and we were even told, well, God
just didn't heal him. It wasn't. It wasn't because of God.
God that still works, you know, that's still true. It
was because you had some unresolved sin in your family,
you know, found ways to blame us, like we did
something wrong in the process.
Speaker 2 (23:42):
There's a get out of jail free card. Like there's
no scenario. And we've talked about this. I know you've
gone through it. But like, if he had been healed,
it was Jesus. If he had an extended life, it
would have been Jesus. If he dies, God took him
to a better place, or your prayer was answered and
it was just answered in a or it's our fault
because it's a fallen world. I mean, there's no scenario
(24:05):
where it's where the prayer wasn't answered. You know. Is
that fair?
Speaker 3 (24:11):
Yeah, no, that's very fair. And honestly, I went very
introspected for a long time, and it was the first
time I was ever angry with God. You're not allowed
to be angry with God. That's you're really not allowed
to be angry, especially if you're a woman in that world.
But it took me a couple of years to realize
I'm pissed that God didn't answer my prayer. And I
(24:36):
was pissed at a lot of Christians that I knew too,
because they wanted me to hurry up and be happy again,
because a sad Christian is a bad witness, and there's
a lot of toxic positivity of like, well, why would
you be sad? Your dad's in heaven.
Speaker 2 (24:49):
Where's your joy in the Lord?
Speaker 3 (24:51):
Yeah? Exactly, And so that kind of I started just
realizing this is not okay. Like I'm having a very normal,
huge in reaction to losing my dad, who I was
very close to and love still very much.
Speaker 2 (25:05):
And I'm guessing he was relatively young man, he was fit.
Speaker 3 (25:08):
Yeah, he died when he was fifty seven. It was
kind of sudden, you know. We found out he has
stage four non smokers lung cancer and then died four
months later. So, I mean, my world shattered and so much.
My dad was a very godlike figure for me. Too,
like he was a preacher. I feel like I learned
a lot of a lot of my beliefs and theology
(25:29):
through him, and so losing him in a way felt
like losing a connection to God, and so I was
kind of I was left to figure out my own
thoughts and beliefs on my own for the first time,
and then slowly over the next several years, it switched
to more political things, because I do think when you're
(25:50):
in that world, and I would have never said I
was a Christian nationalist. I thought I was just being
a good Christian. And I think that's true for most
people who espouse nationalism today. They think just being good
Christians because it's what their pastor their loved ones, Fox News,
you know, talk radio, it's what they're all telling them.
This is what it means to be a Christian. And
most people have a very shallow understanding of their faith too.
(26:15):
But I started, Oh, and your political ideology, That's what
I was gonna say. Your political ideology and your theological
beliefs are intertwined, like they're so connected you don't know
where one begins and the other ends. So me questioning
Pentecostal beliefs left the political side vulnerable as well because
they were both connected. And so twenty fifteen, one of
(26:40):
my brothers comes out to me as gay, and I'm
sure you can imagine what I had been taught about
gay people. And you know, he told me bawling that
he'd known since middle school and had begged God countless nights,
crying to make him straight, and God never did. And
(27:03):
you know, I was taught that gay people had a demon,
were either possessed by demons or oppressed by demons, which means,
you know, a demon was just influencing them to choose
to be gay. But I didn't. I didn't believe that
anyone could be born gay because that meant God made
them that way, And then what does that say about
God and at least my understanding of him. So when
(27:25):
he came out, I immediately knew, well, I know, he
didn't choose this. There's no way he would choose this
in the same homophobic world I grew up in.
Speaker 2 (27:35):
Yeah, why would he step in front of the bullet right?
Why would he put himself in the crosshairs of society
in that way? It was already there?
Speaker 3 (27:43):
Yeah, yeah, and so and even he though, because I
mean indoctrination goes really deep. So even him knowing that
he was gay, didn't choose that. Knowing that he in
his essence was a gay person, still at first was like,
but I know it's wrong, and so I'm just going
to be celibate. And so I was like, Okay, yeah,
(28:06):
I believe God made you this way. And that was
kind of like the first step towards realizing what there's
like an affirming theology, and there's entire different ways to
interpret scripture that has always existed, and I had never
been taught that there's room to include queer people. And
so that also put me on another few year journey
to become fully affirming. But then also probably the biggest
(28:29):
thing that made me realize my least the more Republican
beliefs were pretty screwy was when Donald Trump came onto
the scene. Because I had been taught that character mattered
in a president because I was a child during the
whole Bill Clinton scandal. Yeah, and it was drilled that
(28:53):
if Bill Clinton would lie to his wife, how much
worse would he do to the American people? And we
need a man of integrity in the White House. Wouldn't
it cheat on his wife and all this stuff. And
I was like, yeah, that's why Republicans are good because
we care about that and Democrats are bad because they
don't care about that. And like it was solidified then
(29:15):
Republicans good moral, Democrats bad, not moral. And so then
Trump comes on the scene and suddenly it's like, well,
we're electing a president, not a pastor. And I'm like, well,
we've never said that before.
Speaker 2 (29:28):
It's like the King Cyrus argument, the Lord sometimes uses
flawed people to carry out his will, and you and
I are throwing up in our mouths oh, I know.
Speaker 3 (29:37):
And I'm like, well, why couldn't he do that with Hillary?
And they're like, is a freak out the fact that
it was.
Speaker 2 (29:43):
A sexual sin with Clinton too? And I'm not a Bill.
Speaker 3 (29:46):
Clinton fan, No, I mean, screw that guy.
Speaker 2 (29:48):
Yeah, walking around the Oval office going, you know, I'd
like to give her estate to the Union. You know,
that's just how he thinks, right, But and I think
this speaks to the binary nature of how many people think,
including people who are liberals and tribal people. We tend
to be all or nothing. Like if we say anything
about how Bill Clinton was, he was not a good
(30:10):
guy in that way. They think we're selling out and
giving cover to Donald Trump, and it's like or they're
making I'm making an equivalence argument, and I just don't
think the world works like that. It's not equivalent. We
have never seen anything like what we are seeing. You
would agree with.
Speaker 3 (30:27):
That, right, oh, like in our world, like currently.
Speaker 2 (30:32):
The nature of the presidency, the bar has been lowered
so much that he can go and tweet that Joe
Biden died years ago when was replaced by a robot
and it's not even news, right. We just have become
so scar tissued that it doesn't matter what Ai Golden
(30:55):
idle Imagy post. It doesn't matter. He's got Ai of
Obama on his knees being cuffed and being taken off
for treason and we don't even blink anymore. It's crazy, April.
Speaker 3 (31:06):
Now, it's this is the stupidest timeline. I mean, it's
annoying and dangerous and harming a lot of people. And
also it's so stupid, like how did we even get here?
Speaker 2 (31:18):
I don't is your faith in humanity? Just do you
struggle with that?
Speaker 1 (31:23):
Yes?
Speaker 3 (31:24):
Yeah, I do. It's really frustrating, especially to see the
people that I grew up, not idolizing, because that's bad,
but you know, just really admiring, you know, like Franklin Graham.
I used to think Franklin Graham was this awesome, amazing
man of God who had integrity, and he was out
(31:44):
here campaigning for a rapist, yeah, you know. And and
and the way that Maga Christian nationalists recently went after
Chip and Joanna Gains for just having a gay couple
on their TV show, and yet have been completely silent
at the inhumane treatment of immigrants that we're seeing across
this nation. And like, we have a glorified concentration camp
(32:05):
happening in Florida right now, and they're instead of talking
about that, they're talking about how it's toxic to be empathetic.
It's it's so infuriating because even if I understand that
there are scriptures that make Jesus not look the best,
but there's also a lot of scriptures where he's saying
to treat everyone with kindness, and to love your neighbor,
(32:27):
and to love your enemy, and to turn the other cheek.
And what you do to the least of these, you
do to me. And I was a stranger, and you
did not welcome me. There's plenty of verses in there
that if you're actually a Christian and you're trying to
follow the teachings of Jesus, maga and Christian nationalism is
an anti christ belief system. And it's infuriating for me
(32:48):
to see them out there waiving the Bible and acting
like they have the only true Christianity, which is so
stupid because there's so many different ways to be Christian,
and they have the ada to look at me and
call me a heretic and a blasphemer and that I'm
somehow evil and demonic and satanic because I'm saying, hey,
(33:10):
I think we should just care about people. Is like
twelve year old me would just die if she saw
the state of the world right now as you and
I are speaking.
Speaker 2 (33:20):
I don't know if the people who are watching can see,
but there's a little bird that has flown over your
head and pill me wonders if that's a sign from
heaven that she is now speaking wisdom unto the ages,
or it's just a bird landing on a deal. But
I thought it was kind of charming. I have been
struck by and I get it. How evangelicals have leaned
(33:41):
so heavily into the QAnon thing. I mean, everything is
a conspiracy, and it's the wankier it is for many,
the more legit it is. I mean, there are students
using cat litter boxes in schools. There are people who
were going to homeroom and coming home and they're they're
a different gender and maybe the teacher did it, and
(34:04):
they're you know, trafficking children out of the basement of
a Washington, DC pizza parlor for the Deep State and
Jewish space lads, and you and he harn't looking around,
going how did this happen? Do you think fundamentalism and
I don't mean just Christianity, it can be Islam, it
can be any kind of fundamentalism. Do you think that
primes people to accept conspiracy theories because much of what
(34:28):
they've done in the beginning was conspiracy based.
Speaker 3 (34:31):
Absolutely, I think, especially if you believe in the rapture
of the Church, which if for those that don't know,
it's this belief that Jesus is gonna come, not all
the way to Earth, just to the sky to a
little trumpet.
Speaker 2 (34:47):
And then I like that move. I hope he does that.
Speaker 3 (34:53):
And then all of the Christians on Earth will get
sucked up into the sky. We just kind of float.
We leave our clothes behind now, so we're could float
into the sky. No, that's according to the left Behind core,
you know the lore of left Behind. If you're into that.
Speaker 2 (35:07):
Left Behind was actually a popular book, was it Prette?
I'm trying to think of who wrote left tim Lahay,
tim Lahay.
Speaker 3 (35:14):
Frank Peretti also wrote a bunch of others.
Speaker 2 (35:16):
He wrote The Oath and a bunch of like these
Christian like fiction but not quite fiction, biblical books that
were kind of adventures with godly characters. Would that be
a fair way to represent that I totally derailed you.
I'm sorry. You and I are like literally firing off
each other like the pistons in an engine because I'm
just we walk so many of the same steps. But
(35:37):
because so much of the end Time's narrative is a conspiracy.
The devil is under every rock, and everything is a sign,
and the moon will turn Redda's blood. And this headline
over over in the Middle East means that this is happening.
There will be wars and rumors of wars. People are
primed and just totally fall for stuff, right.
Speaker 3 (35:54):
Yeah, absolutely, I mean that you're taught that thing is
really what it seems, that everything is either of God
or of Satan. There's really no in between. Even your
own flesh. You can't trust your basic instincts because your
flesh is sinful by nature, which means Satan owns your
flesh and you have to die to yourself every single day.
(36:15):
And when you're taught to not trust your own instincts
over and over and over and over and over again.
Even if you have little alarm bells that go off
like does this make sense, you're immediately like, well, that's
from Satan, Like it doesn't matter if it doesn't make sense,
because this pastor is saying it. And I mean, if
you believe that there is a literal Satan and has
(36:37):
a bunch of little demon minions running around with the
sole intention of getting you to look at porn or
you know, whatever the sin is, then the next logical
step is like, okay, yeah, sure, maybe there are a
bunch of demonic lizard people behind the scenes getting democrats
(36:57):
to drink children's blood, and you know, and you believe
in like literal Satanists, which I'm sure there are, Like
I know, like the Satanic Church doesn't actually believe in Satan.
I'm sure there are some people that.
Speaker 2 (37:06):
Are have some Satanist are Satanism is like any other faith,
right or non faith? Yeah, I guess right.
Speaker 3 (37:11):
But like I was taught that lit like actual literal Satanists.
Speaker 2 (37:15):
Halloween, they were trolling around kidnapping your black cats.
Speaker 3 (37:19):
Or children, or like putting drugs and candy and passing
them out like as some big conspiracy like they It's
so easy to believe if you believe that, if you
just believe that there's evil behind every corner and it's
out to get you, and it's out to get your
family and your schools and your churches.
Speaker 2 (37:38):
So were you a fearful kid when you were raised
in fundy Pentecostal you know a family that believed in
that way?
Speaker 3 (37:46):
Yeah, I don't. I mean it's really weird because I
had a good, really good childhood, Like my parents were
really good people that were also just in that world too,
so well, I had a very safe place at home
for the most part. But you definitely have anxiety all
(38:06):
the time. I mean I said the Sinner's prayer all
of the time.
Speaker 2 (38:09):
Like the big bad world first of all, is out there. Yeah,
and you literally had to refresh yours because I would
do that too. Yeah, the penny Costles can lose their faith, right.
Speaker 3 (38:19):
So yes, but it takes a while. Like, we were
not Baptists that believe in eternal security. Once saved, always saved,
so we thought that was stupid. But we also thought
so of course.
Speaker 2 (38:31):
That the Baptist believed in eternal security, and the Baptist
are totally off base. Your right, we were better, but
the Pennycostles thought, if you go south, if you go
if you're bad enough, you will then not go to
Heaven anymore. Your salvation is nullified.
Speaker 3 (38:48):
Yes, it was very conflicting though, because we were taught
that you would kind of have to intentionally make that
decision to no longer follow Jesus to lose your salvation.
But if you had just committed a sin like I
don't know, eight and extra cookie when your mom said
you could only have one, you had to and you
didn't ask God for forgiveness, and then the rapture happened,
(39:10):
or you were to get hit by a bus and
die the next day or whenever, that you could go
to hell. Just in case, they're like, you know what,
just in case you should just always ask God to
forgive you. So they would tell you, like, don't stress
about it, but you know, maybe just in case you
don't want to burn alive forever.
Speaker 2 (39:29):
I was thirteen, and I would just whisper it under
my breath. I didn't even realize how often I was
doing it. Lord, please forgive me for my sins and
cleanse my heart and please save me. And I would.
I felt like I was always having to reset the meter,
which is rapping a prison. It's tragic that kids are
indoctrinated in this way. It speaks to self worth, fear
(39:49):
of the outside world. I don't know. There's so many
layers to that Onion in April, but I hear, and
I hear, like the story of your brother. My best
friend came out to me as in the nineties, and
I had no idea. I was totally ambushed, and I'm like,
we didn't speak for a year. He's going to hell.
God's going to choke you, but he's going to get AIDS.
This was right on top of you know, right after
(40:11):
the age decade of the eighties, you know, when it
it exploded. And then of course I finally came to
my senses, and once I humanized him, I had many
of the same conversations that you did. It's amazing what
happens when someone in your relatively inner circle who was
the other, all of a sudden becomes a three dimensional
flesh and blood, you know, beloved person.
Speaker 3 (40:35):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (40:35):
It kind of kicks the door open, doesn't it.
Speaker 3 (40:38):
Yeah. Yeah, I think there were several moments in this journey,
and my brother coming out was one where my heart
disagreed with my head. You know. My head was telling me, well,
this is wrong, this is a sin, because we were
taught all these things. But my heart was saying, this
is your brother who cares what the book says, you know.
And there is some conflict there for a while, arguing
(41:01):
with those two things. But yeah, I think, and I
think that's one reason why empathy is being so demonized
right now from the right, because empathy is a dogma
killer and nuance is a dogma killer. And once you
can see someone's humanity or the divine in them, as
I would say, like, if you're close enough to see
that they're human just like you are, it's so much
(41:23):
harder to demonize them.
Speaker 2 (41:25):
Empathy is a dogma killer. I'm making that into a
t shoe. It's just true, right, once you've dehumanized What
is that line I'd like to quote. It was from
a psychologist whose name escapes me because I haven't had
my second cup of coffee, but he said, dehumanization is
a tool that lets us harm other people. Right, once
(41:48):
you remove their humanity, then you can lock them in
a cage in a concentration camp, and you can send
him to a torture prison in El Salvador, and you
can starve them and you can put them in the
electric chair, etc. One last break and we will continue
with my special guest, April A. Joy. Hang On. A
(42:15):
couple of years ago, I did a podcast with another Christian,
Amanda Tyler, and I think I titled this show Strange
Allies or Strange Friends or something so weird that an
atheist and a Christian might be on the same side
when it comes to humanism. But that's what's going on.
We continue my conversation with April A. Joy. So today
(42:40):
you and I are fighting against autocracy, theocracy, monarchy? Are
we host? I mean you know, I mean, should we
just all like go lie down in the forest and
call it a day? Should we move to some other
part of the world and just watch the decline of West.
(43:01):
You've had those conversations internally, all right, I can't be
the only one, April.
Speaker 3 (43:06):
Oh no, I mean literally, Beecher and I just got
our passports are nude, and got our kids' passports. We
have no plans to travel, but like, just in case,
I have no plans. I don't know what we would do,
but I'd feel a little bit better just having it
because it is it is really scary what is happening.
I don't want to discount that, but I don't think
(43:29):
it's hopeless. I feel like there's still a lot of
really good in humanity. And I think the fact that
you and I are sitting here having this conversation and
that we're partners and fighting this is a really good
sign that people with different beliefs and different backgrounds or
different understandings of the world can come together for a
greater good. And that gives me hope. And like, I know,
(43:51):
a lot of people ask me, like, why are you
still Christian? Because I know the things that I say
don't always sound Christian because of what we are used
to having. Are you what we're used to understanding about
Christianity in America especially, but I not to be this
is going to be true or not sound Christianite, go ahead.
I feel I feel like I have a calling now
(44:13):
to witness to Christian nationalists and try to pull them out.
And I really think they won't listen to me if
I say I'm agnostic, or if I come out and
say I'm atheist, or if I come out and say
I'm not a Christian anymore, then they immediately their walls
go up because they've been taught atheists are bad, agnostics
(44:33):
are bad all the things.
Speaker 2 (44:35):
Sure, I mean, the witness has already been discredited.
Speaker 3 (44:37):
Right right, But if I say, hey, listen, I'm a
Jesus person too, and I know where you're coming from.
I believed everything that you believe, and I know that
you really want to follow Jesus and that you really
want to love people, and that you really care about people,
And this verse right here, how can you reconcile this
with ripping children away from their families just because they're
not born here? When Jesus said to welcome the stranger,
(45:00):
what you do to Lisa, these you do to me?
And appealing to people's goodness I have found actually can work,
and I think I have a better position to do
that while staying Christian than if I just leave the
faith altogether.
Speaker 2 (45:14):
We've talked a lot about changing minds, and I hold
to in the one on ones. People will not change.
They won't become reflective and potentially change their minds if
they feel unsafe. Right, if we're on the attack. I
used to think if you walk in with data points,
I have the evidence, I win, right, And it never
(45:37):
worked like that because many of the people were back
on their heels. Fight flight or freeze kicks in and
people improve their opinions when they feel safe. And I
don't think it's a cheat to make someone feel like
it's okay, I'm not going to attack you. I don't
(45:57):
think you're you know, whatever invective I come up with,
I want the best ideas to win. I'm listening. I mean,
I will say that people in my own tribe, we're
human beings. We're not always very good listeners. We're sending
but not receiving. Having having empathy is not a cheat.
Back me up on this, April. Empathy is not a cheat. No.
Speaker 3 (46:21):
I think I believe personally that humans are more good
than evil that we all have, but we're all capable
of both, right, And I think at our very basic nature,
we have kindness and we want to do good. That's
my understanding of the world. That's what when I look
at my kids and I see a desire in them
(46:42):
to do good, and we're not teaching them dot Mand,
We're not teaching them. You better do all these right things.
You're going to die and go to help.
Speaker 2 (46:48):
Sure, it's your journey, right here's where I am. But
you are on a journey if you're.
Speaker 3 (46:52):
Own right and just I see two little human beings
that just want to do good in this world and
are very empathetic and care about people, and I think
appealing to that is good. I think that's what we're
going to get people, is to appeal to people's empathy.
It's I don't know. I just think I think there's
(47:16):
more good people in the world than there are bad people.
But the bad people are just in power right now,
and they're really loud and scary.
Speaker 2 (47:22):
And I think the bad people, honestly, because they shatter
the rules and they act without values, I think in
many ways they're the fact that they're more conniving has
allowed them to secure the wholes of power. When we
talk about not to monopolize your time, but I consider
all day. I'm almost done, April, I promise. What is
(47:47):
happening now in Christian nationalism in Magaville, with all of
the horror of horrors, the moment by moment horrors that
are happening, almost all of that is in contradiction to
the will of the American people. As Ah. All the
polls say that people hate this shit. I mean, there
were a few that love it. But when it comes
to reproductive rights and gay marriage and trans people in
(48:09):
the military and blah blah blah. If you look at
the way Americans feel, they're looking around, going I don't
agree with this yet. It's the people who lied and
cheated to get into the halls of power, to stack
the courts, to overtake, to essentially monopolize the Congress, etc.
You know. I think it's their lack of ethic that
(48:32):
has allowed them to secure the halls of power. And
they don't represent most people. I don't know. It's kind
of where I land. It's imperfect. April. Does that hit
at all?
Speaker 3 (48:44):
No, I think that's true. I think most people honestly,
I think most people don't know how bad it is.
I think most people stay in their own little bubble
avoid bad news.
Speaker 2 (48:55):
I mean, is it head in the sand or is
it disinformation bubble like like Hannity.
Speaker 3 (49:01):
And I think it could be a combination of all
the things. Like I think you have Christian nationalists that
are openly Christian nationalists that want to make America Christian nation.
They are open, loud and proud about it. Then you
have people who will vote with Christian nationalists, maybe don't
fully understand what's going on, but no abortion and Democrats
(49:23):
are bad, and so they vote for that. In that way,
I think most people and I've ran into these a
few people lately, just when they asked me what I
do and I mentioned a political activists, and like, oh, well,
I couldn't watch the news. I don't watch the news.
It stresses me out too much and I have to
you know, it gives me too much anxiety, and I
just don't want to know, like literally just didn't know
(49:44):
anything that was going on. I think most people fall
into that, and I think that's why we got Donald
Trump round two, because Donald Trump was saying all of
the things that he was going to do, and then
people are acting shocked when he's doing those things. Mean,
it was right there. Project twenty twenty Project twenty twenty
five was right there.
Speaker 2 (50:04):
But some of that's got to be about savior figures.
I think when you're part of a fundamentalist culture, don't
you respond to someone who comes in and says, I
alone can fix it. I am the chosen one. I mean,
if you were taught to follow an authority with the
capital a be it, a deity, a pastor as shepherd.
(50:25):
Then if somebody comes along and they're waiving the Bible,
you know it's it's belief theater, and they say I
alone can fix it, Follow me, and I will make
us great, then all thinking can shut down and they
can just say that's my guy, and then it's just
literally the sheeple. I mean that's what I see.
Speaker 3 (50:42):
Well, yeah, and I think too. When you're in that world,
you're taught don't touch God's anointed. You're taught that about
pastors and evangelists and anyone who's in a position of power.
If they mess up, you don't talk bad about them
because their God's anointed. I think that was easily transferred
to Donald Trump.
Speaker 2 (51:00):
You might as well be criticizing God himself, for he
is God's proxy on earth. Oh yeah, the King in
heaven appoints kings on earth. That kind of thinking.
Speaker 3 (51:10):
Mm hmm. I think the most honest thing Trump ever
said was that he could stand on Fifth Avenue and
shoot someone and he wouldn't lose any followers.
Speaker 2 (51:17):
Yeah, April, one last plug for your book before I
let you go. April and I are on a panel
in an hour two and a half hours talking about
Christian nationalism. We're going to provide an example of two
people who have a few disagreements here and there, and
we are absolutely allies and on the same I feel
(51:38):
like about you the way I feel about Amanda Tyler
at Christians against Christian Nationalism, and Andrew Whitehead and doctor
Robert Jones, I mean believers, Rachel Lazard Americans United, I
mean heroes in the fight against state church overreach in
this attack on the Constitution. And what you do is
critical and it's important and it's amazing, and so I'm
(52:02):
honored to take the stage with you. I think we're
going to I think we're going to do pretty good.
I hope.
Speaker 3 (52:06):
So, Yeah, I'm excited to be up there with you too.
Speaker 2 (52:09):
All right. Name of the book and where do people
find your work?
Speaker 3 (52:12):
It's called Star Spangled Jesus. You can get that wherever
books are sold. There's also an audiobook that I narrate,
and you can find me on the interweb at April
joy A Joi TikTok, Instagram, Facebook, YouTube threads, blue sky x.
There's way too many.
Speaker 2 (52:30):
I will put links in the description wherever in the
show notes of this conversation. April, You're amazing, Thanks for
talking to me, Thanks for having me.
Speaker 1 (52:39):
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Speaker 2 (00:10):
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Speaker 1 (00:13):
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Speaker 2 (00:22):
I put my hand on a book and made a wish.
Speaker 1 (00:25):
And working together for a more rational world.
Speaker 2 (00:29):
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Speaker 1 (00:35):
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Speaker 2 (00:56):
This coming weekend, I'm going to be doing three speaking
stops in Texas and I would love a chance to
see you. Friday night, six pm Austin, Texas. I'm going
to be out there with Drew McCoy, the host of
the Genetically Modified Skeptic Channel. That's going to be a
great time. And then Saturday afternoon two pm in San Antonio.
(01:17):
Finally Sunday morning, I'll be at Houston Oasis. Plenty of
time to get all the details and everything you need
to know for this Texas run this weekend Seth Andrews
dot com slash Events and then beyond that, I'm going
to be at California Free Thought Day in Sacramento the
second weekend in October, Albuquerque, New Mexico on the twenty
(01:41):
fifth of October, and it's looking like early December for Denver, Colorado.
All those details Seth Andrews dot com slash Events. Now
the audio of a video conversation I had with the
very special guest. The video to watch is in the
show notes of this broadcast. April A. Joy and I
(02:09):
are We found a little conference room, a place to
have a conversation as we attend the Nashville Nuns like
not nuns, Catholic nuns, but nuns as in No Religion
Nashville Nuns Conference Nanocon twenty twenty five. And I had
to talk to her because she's on the speaking roster
and we're on a panel together in April high How
are you?
Speaker 3 (02:29):
I'm good? Are you?
Speaker 2 (02:31):
You are not an atheist? You are a Christian? Is
that right?
Speaker 3 (02:37):
Correct? Yeah? I'm in the lions Den right now.
Speaker 2 (02:41):
What are you doing here? You're not a nun? What
are you doing here?
Speaker 3 (02:44):
I'm trying to win souls. I'm just kidding.
Speaker 2 (02:48):
Come out lackless, dable because my plan the whole time.
Speaker 3 (02:52):
Yeah, No, we're here to talk about Christian nationalism because
I feel like right now, as sad as it is,
I have more in common with you than I do
a lot of mega Christian nationalists right now, and I
feel like shared values can go a long way to
help stop the Christian nationalism that is taking over our
(03:12):
Guess well, I feel the same way.
Speaker 2 (03:14):
A lot of my fellow is the anti theists struggle
with that. Why would you partner? Why would you stand
shoulder to shoulder with a religious person, religious organizations, etc.
They're part of the problem. If you are a Christian,
then in a way, you're giving cover to the Christian nationalist.
How would you respond to that?
Speaker 3 (03:35):
Yeah, I hear that argument, and I understand where we're
coming from. And also, one, I am a Christian and
I feel like a lot of us can't help but
believe what we believe. If I said I wasn't a believer,
I wouldn't be true to myself. And also, on the
more practical standpoint, we live in a country where Christianity
(04:00):
is kind of in the blood. Christian nationalism, white supremacy, evangelicalism,
it's all tied in together and We're not going to
fight that and be able to stop that without also
using Christianity, in my opinion, because I don't know if
you've ever talked to I'm sure you have. You've talked
to fists and more fundamentalists Christian you can't use logic,
(04:23):
you can't use facts, and you can't use a you know,
someone who is going by brain and thought. You can't
use those tactics. You have to use the Bible. And
I feel like the best way to stop it is
to use their own book against them, which is also
my book, because there are multiple ways to interpret the
(04:44):
Scripture that are not fundamentalists and literal.
Speaker 2 (04:46):
All right, I'm going to be that guy in the
comments section. If you're a Christian and you can't reach
your Christian with logic, then we can't reach you.
Speaker 3 (04:54):
No, you can't reach me.
Speaker 2 (04:56):
I mean, I'm just saying if they said, well, you're
not going to reach Christians or you're not going to
reach Christian nationalists by using facts, did I hear that? Right?
Speaker 3 (05:05):
Correct? We don't care about facts, all right, we as
in fundamentalists.
Speaker 2 (05:11):
So tell me about your Christianity. How do you interpret it?
Speaker 3 (05:18):
I mean, I hold my beliefs very loosely. I believe
in Jesus, I have prayer life of spiritual life. But
I'm not trying to tell you that you're wrong and
I'm right, Like I don't I hold I have a
very big tent approach to faith in Jesus and Christianity
(05:40):
as the language that I have because it's the culture
I grew up in. It's the faith that I was
raised in, and that's just the language that I use.
But I am not exclusive in believing that my way
is the only true path to God or truth or
the universe. And I think every belief system is valid.
Speaker 2 (06:01):
I heard you say earlier that you are a Red
letter Christian.
Speaker 3 (06:04):
What do you mean? I like, follow the teachings of Jesus,
and I do think the Red Letters which are you know,
there's Bibles that the words of Jesus are written and read,
and if you just take that, it is the kryptonite
to a lot of Christian nationalism teaching and rhetoric that
we see today.
Speaker 2 (06:23):
You and I are talking about Christian nationalism on a
panel later, and I'm going to get to that in
just second, And I'm not going after you. I'm just
curious I think you and I are engaging each other
in good faith, and I'm fair game, so come after
me as well. But you know, when Adam was created,
he was given dominion over the earth. We see the
Old Testament is filled with tribal wars as God's chosen
(06:45):
people were, you know, taking ground and imposing God's law.
You know, the great commission is go yee into all
the world and make disciples. So dominionism seems to be
baked in to literal biblical Christianity. Do I have that wrong?
Or you would? Do you see it differently?
Speaker 3 (07:06):
No? I think if you're taking the Bible as literal,
as the literal word of God, then yes, I think
you would come away with that. But even doing that,
there's conflicting world views within the text. There's conflicting scripture
within the text, which is why I don't believe that
anybody actually takes the Bible literally. It would be impossible.
Speaker 2 (07:26):
Well, I guess it was it who said that follow
every command in the Christian Bible starting in Genesis, the
last one to go to jail wins, right, because you're
talking about owning slaves and executing disobedient kids and all that, right.
Speaker 3 (07:41):
Yeah, no. And I'm fully of the belief that you
can interpret the Bible to oppress people, as we've seen
throughout history, and you can also use the Bible to
bring liberation and to bring freedom. And I think you
can choose which one you want to do. Because everybody
cherry picks. Some of us just admit it.
Speaker 2 (08:02):
So the least of these ye and blessed, are the meek,
and be charitable and kind and don't take vengeance and
tell the truth. And the best version of Jesus is
something that speaks to you.
Speaker 3 (08:16):
Yes, yeah, I find the teachings of Jesus very noble
and something that I aspire to be like and just
being a good human being and treating other human beings
as human beings and not being dehumanizing.
Speaker 2 (08:32):
Well, what about the Jesus and Matthew that said, I
have not come to bring peace but a sword. I've
come to turn a father against a son, a mother
against their daughter. You know, Jesus wasn't always love and light.
Do you have those discussions with yourself about you know,
the nature, the three dimensional nature of Christ.
Speaker 3 (08:52):
I mean, yeah, I've definitely thought through a lot of
that stuff. I would I just hold a lot of
those scriptures. I don't believe that everything is literal and
when it was. I mean, the Gospels were written so
much later too than when Jesus.
Speaker 2 (09:09):
Passed, So it's an imperfect text written by man. But
you can sort of filter through to find the diamonds.
I don't know if that's an oversimplification, but you know,
to find the good stuff.
Speaker 3 (09:21):
Yeah, I mean I think for me, I don't. The
Bible to me is more the story of God. It's
not the literal word of God that a lot of
evangelicals believe. To me, there can be a lot of
good meaning that comes from it, there can be some
bad meaning that comes from it, depending on how you
interpret it and the lens in which you interpret the scripture.
(09:41):
I don't. I honestly just don't care, not much about
what I so.
Speaker 2 (09:47):
The God who said gays deserve execution and all that stuff,
This is a constructive man. It is not the God
that speaks to you, the Jesus that lives in your heart,
your personal relationship. God would never do that.
Speaker 3 (10:00):
Well, yeah, but I would also push back that I
don't believe the text says in the interpretation that you
just said, Like I feel like a lot of.
Speaker 2 (10:09):
Man shall not lie with another man is right.
Speaker 3 (10:11):
But there was no orientation in that. And then Ezekiel
comes back and says, this is the sin of your
sister Sawdom, that they were overfed, or that they ignored
the poor and were not inhospitable. So I think a
lot of the conversations that I would have with a
lot of atheists, and like a lot of arguments that
atheists have about the scripture, first of all, I agree
with like I think those are accurate if you're talking
(10:34):
to someone who interprets it in that fundamentalist, literalist way.
But I don't interpret it that way. And there's a
I mean universalism I would say is probably what I'm
more likely ascribed to, like Christian universalism, with the universal Christ,
where God can meet anybody where they're at, regardless of
their belief system, and we all have different languages for
(10:56):
who God is. And so I think I just in differently.
So a lot of arguments that you or a lot
of atheist or agnostics would have, I agree with them,
and also don't interpret it that way. And it doesn't
really have a deep impact on my personal spirituality.
Speaker 2 (11:16):
If Jesus was sitting in your chair, though, I would
ask Jesus, why the ambiguity? Why don't you just come
down and explain it to us? Why would we need
to interpret? Why are the thousands of splinterings of the religion,
you know, I mean, the whole world is looking up going,
please give us some clarity. I would like be like Jesus,
you know, fix this, like explain it, and I mean
(11:39):
you can understand that, right, I mean the frustration maybe
that you have had where you're like, I'm not sure
what this means. I struggle with it. We all have struggles.
You'd be like, Jesus, your God, come down here and
freaking explain it in a way that we can all
understand with no ambiguity. That's fair, isn't it.
Speaker 3 (11:54):
No. I really agree with that, And I think people
that say, well, the Bible is clear, that's just the
Bible's not clear at all. If it were clear, there
wouldn't be over forty five thousand Christian denominations in the world.
Speaker 2 (12:07):
You and I are allies, we are teammates. Below as
people's minds, I can hear heads exploding YouTube especially, They're
going to come after me and say, what are you doing?
And I just literally want to sit them down and say,
April is my hero. She and I share values. She
(12:29):
is on the front lines against Christian nationalism, which I've
come to the point in my own life, April, where
if you hold a personal belief, we can have those discussions. Right,
You and I disagree on theology, but we share values, right,
and our humanity is the most important part of that conversation.
You'd agree with.
Speaker 3 (12:49):
That, right absolutely. And to me, I think beliefs are secondary.
I think what you believe doesn't really matter. It's an
intangible But.
Speaker 2 (12:57):
Doesn't what you believe impact how you act? Doesn't one
propel itself and do action? I mean what I believe
affects what I do and say yes, but.
Speaker 3 (13:08):
I think so many people, including me at one point,
but we can get so hung up on well, what
does this verse say and how do you apply that?
And what about this belief? And what do you believe
about creation or the beginning of the world or afterlife
and all these things? And I really think I think
it's beautiful that we can have an exchange of beliefs,
But at the end of the day, none of us
(13:29):
know what's going to happen when we die. You know,
we all believe, we believe nothing's going to happen, or
we believe we're going to heaven, but none of us know.
And I think that's why. I mean, it's like inintangible
because we can have beliefs, but I care far more
how people live. What people do are actions. And to me,
(13:51):
if you have a belief that I think is weird
and ridiculous, but you are out there fighting for queer
inclusion in the world, I'm like, great, I don't care
that you believe in whatever it is.
Speaker 2 (14:06):
I would like I think my afterlife, I'd like to
be reincarnated as a dog in my own house because
they live the best lives ever. Like you know, I
would just want to be pampered and spoiled in that way.
Total digression. I don't know you an animal person. You know.
Speaker 3 (14:21):
It's funny. We actually have a cat that showed up
on our porch this past Christmas, and my spouse, Beacher,
has always been allergic to cats, so we were like, no,
can't have this cat. But it was really a Christmas
miracle because Beatri's not allergic to this cat, and now
the cat has claimed us as her family.
Speaker 2 (14:41):
Like the dander has been miracles, not to be able
to go into the nose and affect the allergies, the sinuses.
Speaker 3 (14:48):
Right, that's why I'm a Christian.
Speaker 2 (14:52):
Tell me about your book. What's it called? What does
it do?
Speaker 3 (14:55):
Yeah, it's called Star Spangled Jesus Leaving Christian Nationalism and
Finding a True Faith. But I've had a lot of
atheists that read it. It's not preachy, I promise, no, no, no.
Speaker 2 (15:04):
As a setup. I've read the book and I appreciate
the book. So you were hardcore at one point you
were a Bible literalist. The country belongs to Jesus. I
don't know where did you feel. One vibe I get
with Christian nationalism now is I don't care what the
rest of the world does. I only care about us.
(15:25):
And they talk about these borders they subjectively drawn. I
mean they were born, they were drawn by men, right,
But for some reason these borders are sacrisanct. So if
I'm on, if I'm born on this side of the line,
somehow I'm better than someone born on the other side
of them. Was there any of that it was part
of your journey or no?
Speaker 3 (15:43):
Yeah? I mean I was very republican, so why can't
they're coming and take I remember Jesus was.
Speaker 2 (15:49):
A right wing capitalist kind of thing.
Speaker 3 (15:51):
Then, Oh yeah, I mean it's it's wild being on
this side looking back, because the cognitive dissonance is so
very obvious. But yeah, I believed in Jesus was a
huge Jesus person. You know, it's not a religion, it's
a relationship, it's not a religion. Right, So really I
still am a religious man in that definition.
Speaker 2 (16:14):
That's a whole other convers that's a whole other interview,
and I'm not taking that bait. So you used to
be a Christian nationalist, please continue your head.
Speaker 3 (16:22):
Yes, So you know, we believed love God, love people,
although exclusions definitely applied, and then vote Republican. So we
believed that true Christians had to vote Republicans, that Republicans
had Christianity best in mind. And that was mainly based
on gay marriage and abortion at the time. And we
were also very pro gun and pro death penalty. Oddly enough,
(16:47):
because we were also proleged.
Speaker 2 (16:49):
We were the same way.
Speaker 3 (16:49):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (16:50):
Right. It was kind of an Old Testament judgment justice
eye for an eye kind of you kill somebody will
kill you back.
Speaker 3 (16:56):
Yeah, exactly, when I was in grad school, I campaigned
for Mitt Romney unofficially. He didn't ask me to, but
I was very fired up because I watched that Danesh
Desuza Obama twenty sixteen doc and it was like the
end of the world, socialism is coming, and I really
thought that immigrants were going to still a job that
(17:18):
I didn't have yet because I was still in college.
So I was like all riled up and really thought
that like the end of the world was coming if
Obama won again.
Speaker 2 (17:28):
Like abortion equals murder, that's what. So I think a
lot of people who are they've joined the MAGA movement
or they're on the train. Even if they're you know,
in the caboose, they're able to or they are willing
to rationalize every other horrible thing because as long as
we're not murdering babies, whatever the Democrats do is worse. Yep,
(17:53):
was that the vibe like the Demo. Whatever the Republican does,
even if it's horrible, it's not as bad as ordering kids.
So I'm going to vote Republican.
Speaker 3 (18:02):
Yes, yes, it's also based on I mean, I was
only ever taught a right wing view of abortion, so
I was only taught a very sensationalized story. You know,
women carrying full term babies and choosing in the ninth
month to abort their healthy baby, willy nilly.
Speaker 2 (18:20):
Like, and the liberal doctor twirling their mustache going.
Speaker 3 (18:23):
Ah ah exactly. You know, people were just thought that
people were having abortions for fun, for funzies, and you know, graphic.
I went to a hell house when I was twelve.
Speaker 2 (18:36):
Explain what a hell house is for people.
Speaker 3 (18:38):
A hellhouse is a haunted house, but it's put on
by churches, so instead of like zombies and ghosts or
Michael Myers, it's literal biblical demons and like deadly sins.
And then you have teens that get dragged to hell.
Very traumatizing actually. But the very first room in the
hell house that I went to wasn't abortion room. And
(19:01):
you had a girl, she was probably fifteen or sixteen,
laying in a hospital bed.
Speaker 2 (19:07):
Just so much blood, blood right between your legs.
Speaker 3 (19:11):
Between your legs, and it was like squirting. I think
they had some kind of like sprinkler system back there.
And you hear the doctor and he's like, we're having
trouble with the abortion, and it's like we're we're all
these these sirens go off like we're gonna lose her,
and then they pull out. It looked like it was
like a full size baby doll, like wait, fetus, yes,
(19:35):
but it was not a fetus. It looked like, I mean,
it was a baby doll, but it was like the
size of like an actual like six month nine month
baby that was coming out of her. And so then
she dies and the baby dies, and then and then
it like lights go off and you're burn because they're dead,
and then you see the like demons in the background,
they're like, eh, another one that we convinced my body
(19:57):
my choice was about women's rights, and then they drag
her to hell and she's screaming.
Speaker 2 (20:03):
And a lot of those came out of the same
template we had. They would have like the gang shooting.
There was the suicide room. Did you guys have that
where like someone's in there and you can see their
suicide on a TV and their bodies laying on the
bed and it was a scared straight thing, right, They
would terrify you. Did yours have like evangelical salvation counselors
(20:23):
at the back door when you were done?
Speaker 3 (20:24):
Oh yeah, there was like prayer all throughout it, and
then you're awesolly. You're also constantly reminded that this could
be real, This will be real unless you repent, and
then they give you lots of chances to do so.
Speaker 2 (20:38):
It's really abusive, isn't it. I mean, that's a worthy
God would not terrify children into I don't know, acquiescence, obedience,
blind obedience. You know it's essentially loved me or else right.
Speaker 3 (20:55):
Yeah, no, I completely agree. I don't believe in that God.
Speaker 2 (20:58):
I know that I'm vibing. I'm vibing more with April A. Joy,
the author of the book Star Spangled Jesus. She was
also featured in part two of the Amazon documentary Shiny
Happy People. And So we're going to continue our discussion next.
(21:26):
So glad you're here, So glad you are listening. This
is the audio of a video interview I recorded a
couple of weeks ago in Nashville with a Christian who
is fighting Christian nationalism. April A. Joy. You look around today, April,
(21:46):
I mean, I I must have been so naive ten
years ago. I thought, well, the rise of the nons
are the seculars, the humanists, the non fundies. Okay, I
saw this statistically, and I thought, well, we're not going back,
We're not this, you know, we're a white supremacy. They're
fringe and all these types of things, and then of
course the whole freaking the world's on fire. Yeah, did
(22:10):
you go through any of that? Did you think, hey,
things are getting better? And then you looked around like
you were you just witnessed a huge train wreck?
Speaker 3 (22:19):
I mean, come on, yeah, I feel like well, I
thought the world was kind of starting to end when
Obama was president.
Speaker 2 (22:28):
Now, how wait, when did you come out of your fundamentalism?
Speaker 3 (22:31):
Well, it was in stages. I think when you start deconstructing,
you don't know you are. You know, you kind of
just start questioning things that don't make sense quietly because
you're talking about it's taboo. So I mean, I would
say I started questioning different theological things, like more about
my Pentecostal background when my dad passed away in twenty eleven,
(22:56):
because we were Pentecostal, so we believed in miracles and
that you had enough faith that God would give you
what you asked for. So he was diagnosed in May,
passed away in September. I knew I could not have
had more faith and God just didn't do anything. So
I was like, well, that's wrong, but couldn't really express
(23:17):
that out loud yet because Christians around sure.
Speaker 2 (23:21):
They would have literally circled you and said danger.
Speaker 3 (23:25):
Oh yeah, well, and we were even told, well, God
just didn't heal him. It wasn't. It wasn't because of God.
God that still works, you know, that's still true. It
was because you had some unresolved sin in your family,
you know, found ways to blame us, like we did
something wrong in the process.
Speaker 2 (23:42):
There's a get out of jail free card. Like there's
no scenario. And we've talked about this. I know you've
gone through it. But like, if he had been healed,
it was Jesus. If he had an extended life, it
would have been Jesus. If he dies, God took him
to a better place, or your prayer was answered and
it was just answered in a or it's our fault
because it's a fallen world. I mean, there's no scenario
(24:05):
where it's where the prayer wasn't answered. You know. Is
that fair?
Speaker 3 (24:11):
Yeah, no, that's very fair. And honestly, I went very
introspected for a long time, and it was the first
time I was ever angry with God. You're not allowed
to be angry with God. That's you're really not allowed
to be angry, especially if you're a woman in that world.
But it took me a couple of years to realize
I'm pissed that God didn't answer my prayer. And I
(24:36):
was pissed at a lot of Christians that I knew too,
because they wanted me to hurry up and be happy again,
because a sad Christian is a bad witness, and there's
a lot of toxic positivity of like, well, why would
you be sad? Your dad's in heaven.
Speaker 2 (24:49):
Where's your joy in the Lord?
Speaker 3 (24:51):
Yeah? Exactly, And so that kind of I started just
realizing this is not okay. Like I'm having a very normal,
huge in reaction to losing my dad, who I was
very close to and love still very much.
Speaker 2 (25:05):
And I'm guessing he was relatively young man, he was fit.
Speaker 3 (25:08):
Yeah, he died when he was fifty seven. It was
kind of sudden, you know. We found out he has
stage four non smokers lung cancer and then died four
months later. So, I mean, my world shattered and so much.
My dad was a very godlike figure for me. Too,
like he was a preacher. I feel like I learned
a lot of a lot of my beliefs and theology
(25:29):
through him, and so losing him in a way felt
like losing a connection to God, and so I was
kind of I was left to figure out my own
thoughts and beliefs on my own for the first time,
and then slowly over the next several years, it switched
to more political things, because I do think when you're
(25:50):
in that world, and I would have never said I
was a Christian nationalist. I thought I was just being
a good Christian. And I think that's true for most
people who espouse nationalism today. They think just being good
Christians because it's what their pastor their loved ones, Fox News,
you know, talk radio, it's what they're all telling them.
This is what it means to be a Christian. And
most people have a very shallow understanding of their faith too.
(26:15):
But I started, Oh, and your political ideology, That's what
I was gonna say. Your political ideology and your theological
beliefs are intertwined, like they're so connected you don't know
where one begins and the other ends. So me questioning
Pentecostal beliefs left the political side vulnerable as well because
they were both connected. And so twenty fifteen, one of
(26:40):
my brothers comes out to me as gay, and I'm
sure you can imagine what I had been taught about
gay people. And you know, he told me bawling that
he'd known since middle school and had begged God countless nights,
crying to make him straight, and God never did. And
(27:03):
you know, I was taught that gay people had a demon,
were either possessed by demons or oppressed by demons, which means,
you know, a demon was just influencing them to choose
to be gay. But I didn't. I didn't believe that
anyone could be born gay because that meant God made
them that way, And then what does that say about
God and at least my understanding of him. So when
(27:25):
he came out, I immediately knew, well, I know, he
didn't choose this. There's no way he would choose this
in the same homophobic world I grew up in.
Speaker 2 (27:35):
Yeah, why would he step in front of the bullet right?
Why would he put himself in the crosshairs of society
in that way? It was already there?
Speaker 3 (27:43):
Yeah, yeah, and so and even he though, because I
mean indoctrination goes really deep. So even him knowing that
he was gay, didn't choose that. Knowing that he in
his essence was a gay person, still at first was like,
but I know it's wrong, and so I'm just going
to be celibate. And so I was like, Okay, yeah,
(28:06):
I believe God made you this way. And that was
kind of like the first step towards realizing what there's
like an affirming theology, and there's entire different ways to
interpret scripture that has always existed, and I had never
been taught that there's room to include queer people. And
so that also put me on another few year journey
to become fully affirming. But then also probably the biggest
(28:29):
thing that made me realize my least the more Republican
beliefs were pretty screwy was when Donald Trump came onto
the scene. Because I had been taught that character mattered
in a president because I was a child during the
whole Bill Clinton scandal. Yeah, and it was drilled that
(28:53):
if Bill Clinton would lie to his wife, how much
worse would he do to the American people? And we
need a man of integrity in the White House. Wouldn't
it cheat on his wife and all this stuff. And
I was like, yeah, that's why Republicans are good because
we care about that and Democrats are bad because they
don't care about that. And like it was solidified then
(29:15):
Republicans good moral, Democrats bad, not moral. And so then
Trump comes on the scene and suddenly it's like, well,
we're electing a president, not a pastor. And I'm like, well,
we've never said that before.
Speaker 2 (29:28):
It's like the King Cyrus argument, the Lord sometimes uses
flawed people to carry out his will, and you and
I are throwing up in our mouths oh, I know.
Speaker 3 (29:37):
And I'm like, well, why couldn't he do that with Hillary?
And they're like, is a freak out the fact that
it was.
Speaker 2 (29:43):
A sexual sin with Clinton too? And I'm not a Bill.
Speaker 3 (29:46):
Clinton fan, No, I mean, screw that guy.
Speaker 2 (29:48):
Yeah, walking around the Oval office going, you know, I'd
like to give her estate to the Union. You know,
that's just how he thinks, right, But and I think
this speaks to the binary nature of how many people think,
including people who are liberals and tribal people. We tend
to be all or nothing. Like if we say anything
about how Bill Clinton was, he was not a good
(30:10):
guy in that way. They think we're selling out and
giving cover to Donald Trump, and it's like or they're
making I'm making an equivalence argument, and I just don't
think the world works like that. It's not equivalent. We
have never seen anything like what we are seeing. You
would agree with.
Speaker 3 (30:27):
That, right, oh, like in our world, like currently.
Speaker 2 (30:32):
The nature of the presidency, the bar has been lowered
so much that he can go and tweet that Joe
Biden died years ago when was replaced by a robot
and it's not even news, right. We just have become
so scar tissued that it doesn't matter what Ai Golden
(30:55):
idle Imagy post. It doesn't matter. He's got Ai of
Obama on his knees being cuffed and being taken off
for treason and we don't even blink anymore. It's crazy, April.
Speaker 3 (31:06):
Now, it's this is the stupidest timeline. I mean, it's
annoying and dangerous and harming a lot of people. And
also it's so stupid, like how did we even get here?
Speaker 2 (31:18):
I don't is your faith in humanity? Just do you
struggle with that?
Speaker 1 (31:23):
Yes?
Speaker 3 (31:24):
Yeah, I do. It's really frustrating, especially to see the
people that I grew up, not idolizing, because that's bad,
but you know, just really admiring, you know, like Franklin Graham.
I used to think Franklin Graham was this awesome, amazing
man of God who had integrity, and he was out
(31:44):
here campaigning for a rapist, yeah, you know. And and
and the way that Maga Christian nationalists recently went after
Chip and Joanna Gains for just having a gay couple
on their TV show, and yet have been completely silent
at the inhumane treatment of immigrants that we're seeing across
this nation. And like, we have a glorified concentration camp
(32:05):
happening in Florida right now, and they're instead of talking
about that, they're talking about how it's toxic to be empathetic.
It's it's so infuriating because even if I understand that
there are scriptures that make Jesus not look the best,
but there's also a lot of scriptures where he's saying
to treat everyone with kindness, and to love your neighbor,
(32:27):
and to love your enemy, and to turn the other cheek.
And what you do to the least of these, you
do to me. And I was a stranger, and you
did not welcome me. There's plenty of verses in there
that if you're actually a Christian and you're trying to
follow the teachings of Jesus, maga and Christian nationalism is
an anti christ belief system. And it's infuriating for me
(32:48):
to see them out there waiving the Bible and acting
like they have the only true Christianity, which is so
stupid because there's so many different ways to be Christian,
and they have the ada to look at me and
call me a heretic and a blasphemer and that I'm
somehow evil and demonic and satanic because I'm saying, hey,
(33:10):
I think we should just care about people. Is like
twelve year old me would just die if she saw
the state of the world right now as you and
I are speaking.
Speaker 2 (33:20):
I don't know if the people who are watching can see,
but there's a little bird that has flown over your
head and pill me wonders if that's a sign from
heaven that she is now speaking wisdom unto the ages,
or it's just a bird landing on a deal. But
I thought it was kind of charming. I have been
struck by and I get it. How evangelicals have leaned
(33:41):
so heavily into the QAnon thing. I mean, everything is
a conspiracy, and it's the wankier it is for many,
the more legit it is. I mean, there are students
using cat litter boxes in schools. There are people who
were going to homeroom and coming home and they're they're
a different gender and maybe the teacher did it, and
(34:04):
they're you know, trafficking children out of the basement of
a Washington, DC pizza parlor for the Deep State and
Jewish space lads, and you and he harn't looking around,
going how did this happen? Do you think fundamentalism and
I don't mean just Christianity, it can be Islam, it
can be any kind of fundamentalism. Do you think that
primes people to accept conspiracy theories because much of what
(34:28):
they've done in the beginning was conspiracy based.
Speaker 3 (34:31):
Absolutely, I think, especially if you believe in the rapture
of the Church, which if for those that don't know,
it's this belief that Jesus is gonna come, not all
the way to Earth, just to the sky to a
little trumpet.
Speaker 2 (34:47):
And then I like that move. I hope he does that.
Speaker 3 (34:53):
And then all of the Christians on Earth will get
sucked up into the sky. We just kind of float.
We leave our clothes behind now, so we're could float
into the sky. No, that's according to the left Behind core,
you know the lore of left Behind. If you're into that.
Speaker 2 (35:07):
Left Behind was actually a popular book, was it Prette?
I'm trying to think of who wrote left tim Lahay,
tim Lahay.
Speaker 3 (35:14):
Frank Peretti also wrote a bunch of others.
Speaker 2 (35:16):
He wrote The Oath and a bunch of like these
Christian like fiction but not quite fiction, biblical books that
were kind of adventures with godly characters. Would that be
a fair way to represent that I totally derailed you.
I'm sorry. You and I are like literally firing off
each other like the pistons in an engine because I'm
just we walk so many of the same steps. But
(35:37):
because so much of the end Time's narrative is a conspiracy.
The devil is under every rock, and everything is a sign,
and the moon will turn Redda's blood. And this headline
over over in the Middle East means that this is happening.
There will be wars and rumors of wars. People are
primed and just totally fall for stuff, right.
Speaker 3 (35:54):
Yeah, absolutely, I mean that you're taught that thing is
really what it seems, that everything is either of God
or of Satan. There's really no in between. Even your
own flesh. You can't trust your basic instincts because your
flesh is sinful by nature, which means Satan owns your
flesh and you have to die to yourself every single day.
(36:15):
And when you're taught to not trust your own instincts
over and over and over and over and over again.
Even if you have little alarm bells that go off
like does this make sense, you're immediately like, well, that's
from Satan, Like it doesn't matter if it doesn't make sense,
because this pastor is saying it. And I mean, if
you believe that there is a literal Satan and has
(36:37):
a bunch of little demon minions running around with the
sole intention of getting you to look at porn or
you know, whatever the sin is, then the next logical
step is like, okay, yeah, sure, maybe there are a
bunch of demonic lizard people behind the scenes getting democrats
(36:57):
to drink children's blood, and you know, and you believe
in like literal Satanists, which I'm sure there are, Like
I know, like the Satanic Church doesn't actually believe in Satan.
I'm sure there are some people that.
Speaker 2 (37:06):
Are have some Satanist are Satanism is like any other faith,
right or non faith? Yeah, I guess right.
Speaker 3 (37:11):
But like I was taught that lit like actual literal Satanists.
Speaker 2 (37:15):
Halloween, they were trolling around kidnapping your black cats.
Speaker 3 (37:19):
Or children, or like putting drugs and candy and passing
them out like as some big conspiracy like they It's
so easy to believe if you believe that, if you
just believe that there's evil behind every corner and it's
out to get you, and it's out to get your
family and your schools and your churches.
Speaker 2 (37:38):
So were you a fearful kid when you were raised
in fundy Pentecostal you know a family that believed in
that way?
Speaker 3 (37:46):
Yeah, I don't. I mean it's really weird because I
had a good, really good childhood, Like my parents were
really good people that were also just in that world too,
so well, I had a very safe place at home
for the most part. But you definitely have anxiety all
(38:06):
the time. I mean I said the Sinner's prayer all
of the time.
Speaker 2 (38:09):
Like the big bad world first of all, is out there. Yeah,
and you literally had to refresh yours because I would
do that too. Yeah, the penny Costles can lose their faith, right.
Speaker 3 (38:19):
So yes, but it takes a while. Like, we were
not Baptists that believe in eternal security. Once saved, always saved,
so we thought that was stupid. But we also thought
so of course.
Speaker 2 (38:31):
That the Baptist believed in eternal security, and the Baptist
are totally off base. Your right, we were better, but
the Pennycostles thought, if you go south, if you go
if you're bad enough, you will then not go to
Heaven anymore. Your salvation is nullified.
Speaker 3 (38:48):
Yes, it was very conflicting though, because we were taught
that you would kind of have to intentionally make that
decision to no longer follow Jesus to lose your salvation.
But if you had just committed a sin like I
don't know, eight and extra cookie when your mom said
you could only have one, you had to and you
didn't ask God for forgiveness, and then the rapture happened,
(39:10):
or you were to get hit by a bus and
die the next day or whenever, that you could go
to hell. Just in case, they're like, you know what,
just in case you should just always ask God to
forgive you. So they would tell you, like, don't stress
about it, but you know, maybe just in case you
don't want to burn alive forever.
Speaker 2 (39:29):
I was thirteen, and I would just whisper it under
my breath. I didn't even realize how often I was
doing it. Lord, please forgive me for my sins and
cleanse my heart and please save me. And I would.
I felt like I was always having to reset the meter,
which is rapping a prison. It's tragic that kids are
indoctrinated in this way. It speaks to self worth, fear
(39:49):
of the outside world. I don't know. There's so many
layers to that Onion in April, but I hear, and
I hear, like the story of your brother. My best
friend came out to me as in the nineties, and
I had no idea. I was totally ambushed, and I'm like,
we didn't speak for a year. He's going to hell.
God's going to choke you, but he's going to get AIDS.
This was right on top of you know, right after
(40:11):
the age decade of the eighties, you know, when it
it exploded. And then of course I finally came to
my senses, and once I humanized him, I had many
of the same conversations that you did. It's amazing what
happens when someone in your relatively inner circle who was
the other, all of a sudden becomes a three dimensional
flesh and blood, you know, beloved person.
Speaker 3 (40:35):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (40:35):
It kind of kicks the door open, doesn't it.
Speaker 3 (40:38):
Yeah. Yeah, I think there were several moments in this journey,
and my brother coming out was one where my heart
disagreed with my head. You know. My head was telling me, well,
this is wrong, this is a sin, because we were
taught all these things. But my heart was saying, this
is your brother who cares what the book says, you know.
And there is some conflict there for a while, arguing
(41:01):
with those two things. But yeah, I think, and I
think that's one reason why empathy is being so demonized
right now from the right, because empathy is a dogma
killer and nuance is a dogma killer. And once you
can see someone's humanity or the divine in them, as
I would say, like, if you're close enough to see
that they're human just like you are, it's so much
(41:23):
harder to demonize them.
Speaker 2 (41:25):
Empathy is a dogma killer. I'm making that into a
t shoe. It's just true, right, once you've dehumanized What
is that line I'd like to quote. It was from
a psychologist whose name escapes me because I haven't had
my second cup of coffee, but he said, dehumanization is
a tool that lets us harm other people. Right, once
(41:48):
you remove their humanity, then you can lock them in
a cage in a concentration camp, and you can send
him to a torture prison in El Salvador, and you
can starve them and you can put them in the
electric chair, etc. One last break and we will continue
with my special guest, April A. Joy. Hang On. A
(42:15):
couple of years ago, I did a podcast with another Christian,
Amanda Tyler, and I think I titled this show Strange
Allies or Strange Friends or something so weird that an
atheist and a Christian might be on the same side
when it comes to humanism. But that's what's going on.
We continue my conversation with April A. Joy. So today
(42:40):
you and I are fighting against autocracy, theocracy, monarchy? Are
we host? I mean you know, I mean, should we
just all like go lie down in the forest and
call it a day? Should we move to some other
part of the world and just watch the decline of West.
(43:01):
You've had those conversations internally, all right, I can't be
the only one, April.
Speaker 3 (43:06):
Oh no, I mean literally, Beecher and I just got
our passports are nude, and got our kids' passports. We
have no plans to travel, but like, just in case,
I have no plans. I don't know what we would do,
but I'd feel a little bit better just having it
because it is it is really scary what is happening.
I don't want to discount that, but I don't think
(43:29):
it's hopeless. I feel like there's still a lot of
really good in humanity. And I think the fact that
you and I are sitting here having this conversation and
that we're partners and fighting this is a really good
sign that people with different beliefs and different backgrounds or
different understandings of the world can come together for a
greater good. And that gives me hope. And like, I know,
(43:51):
a lot of people ask me, like, why are you
still Christian? Because I know the things that I say
don't always sound Christian because of what we are used
to having. Are you what we're used to understanding about
Christianity in America especially, but I not to be this
is going to be true or not sound Christianite, go ahead.
I feel I feel like I have a calling now
(44:13):
to witness to Christian nationalists and try to pull them out.
And I really think they won't listen to me if
I say I'm agnostic, or if I come out and
say I'm atheist, or if I come out and say
I'm not a Christian anymore, then they immediately their walls
go up because they've been taught atheists are bad, agnostics
(44:33):
are bad all the things.
Speaker 2 (44:35):
Sure, I mean, the witness has already been discredited.
Speaker 3 (44:37):
Right right, But if I say, hey, listen, I'm a
Jesus person too, and I know where you're coming from.
I believed everything that you believe, and I know that
you really want to follow Jesus and that you really
want to love people, and that you really care about people,
And this verse right here, how can you reconcile this
with ripping children away from their families just because they're
not born here? When Jesus said to welcome the stranger,
(45:00):
what you do to Lisa, these you do to me?
And appealing to people's goodness I have found actually can work,
and I think I have a better position to do
that while staying Christian than if I just leave the
faith altogether.
Speaker 2 (45:14):
We've talked a lot about changing minds, and I hold
to in the one on ones. People will not change.
They won't become reflective and potentially change their minds if
they feel unsafe. Right, if we're on the attack. I
used to think if you walk in with data points,
I have the evidence, I win, right, And it never
(45:37):
worked like that because many of the people were back
on their heels. Fight flight or freeze kicks in and
people improve their opinions when they feel safe. And I
don't think it's a cheat to make someone feel like
it's okay, I'm not going to attack you. I don't
(45:57):
think you're you know, whatever invective I come up with,
I want the best ideas to win. I'm listening. I mean,
I will say that people in my own tribe, we're
human beings. We're not always very good listeners. We're sending
but not receiving. Having having empathy is not a cheat.
Back me up on this, April. Empathy is not a cheat. No.
Speaker 3 (46:21):
I think I believe personally that humans are more good
than evil that we all have, but we're all capable
of both, right, And I think at our very basic nature,
we have kindness and we want to do good. That's
my understanding of the world. That's what when I look
at my kids and I see a desire in them
(46:42):
to do good, and we're not teaching them dot Mand,
We're not teaching them. You better do all these right things.
You're going to die and go to help.
Speaker 2 (46:48):
Sure, it's your journey, right here's where I am. But
you are on a journey if you're.
Speaker 3 (46:52):
Own right and just I see two little human beings
that just want to do good in this world and
are very empathetic and care about people, and I think
appealing to that is good. I think that's what we're
going to get people, is to appeal to people's empathy.
It's I don't know. I just think I think there's
(47:16):
more good people in the world than there are bad people.
But the bad people are just in power right now,
and they're really loud and scary.
Speaker 2 (47:22):
And I think the bad people, honestly, because they shatter
the rules and they act without values, I think in
many ways they're the fact that they're more conniving has
allowed them to secure the wholes of power. When we
talk about not to monopolize your time, but I consider
all day. I'm almost done, April, I promise. What is
(47:47):
happening now in Christian nationalism in Magaville, with all of
the horror of horrors, the moment by moment horrors that
are happening, almost all of that is in contradiction to
the will of the American people. As Ah. All the
polls say that people hate this shit. I mean, there
were a few that love it. But when it comes
to reproductive rights and gay marriage and trans people in
(48:09):
the military and blah blah blah. If you look at
the way Americans feel, they're looking around, going I don't
agree with this yet. It's the people who lied and
cheated to get into the halls of power, to stack
the courts, to overtake, to essentially monopolize the Congress, etc.
You know. I think it's their lack of ethic that
(48:32):
has allowed them to secure the halls of power. And
they don't represent most people. I don't know. It's kind
of where I land. It's imperfect. April. Does that hit
at all?
Speaker 3 (48:44):
No, I think that's true. I think most people honestly,
I think most people don't know how bad it is.
I think most people stay in their own little bubble
avoid bad news.
Speaker 2 (48:55):
I mean, is it head in the sand or is
it disinformation bubble like like Hannity.
Speaker 3 (49:01):
And I think it could be a combination of all
the things. Like I think you have Christian nationalists that
are openly Christian nationalists that want to make America Christian nation.
They are open, loud and proud about it. Then you
have people who will vote with Christian nationalists, maybe don't
fully understand what's going on, but no abortion and Democrats
(49:23):
are bad, and so they vote for that. In that way,
I think most people and I've ran into these a
few people lately, just when they asked me what I
do and I mentioned a political activists, and like, oh, well,
I couldn't watch the news. I don't watch the news.
It stresses me out too much and I have to
you know, it gives me too much anxiety, and I
just don't want to know, like literally just didn't know
(49:44):
anything that was going on. I think most people fall
into that, and I think that's why we got Donald
Trump round two, because Donald Trump was saying all of
the things that he was going to do, and then
people are acting shocked when he's doing those things. Mean,
it was right there. Project twenty twenty Project twenty twenty
five was right there.
Speaker 2 (50:04):
But some of that's got to be about savior figures.
I think when you're part of a fundamentalist culture, don't
you respond to someone who comes in and says, I
alone can fix it. I am the chosen one. I mean,
if you were taught to follow an authority with the
capital a be it, a deity, a pastor as shepherd.
(50:25):
Then if somebody comes along and they're waiving the Bible,
you know it's it's belief theater, and they say I
alone can fix it, Follow me, and I will make
us great, then all thinking can shut down and they
can just say that's my guy, and then it's just
literally the sheeple. I mean that's what I see.
Speaker 3 (50:42):
Well, yeah, and I think too. When you're in that world,
you're taught don't touch God's anointed. You're taught that about
pastors and evangelists and anyone who's in a position of power.
If they mess up, you don't talk bad about them
because their God's anointed. I think that was easily transferred
to Donald Trump.
Speaker 2 (51:00):
You might as well be criticizing God himself, for he
is God's proxy on earth. Oh yeah, the King in
heaven appoints kings on earth. That kind of thinking.
Speaker 3 (51:10):
Mm hmm. I think the most honest thing Trump ever
said was that he could stand on Fifth Avenue and
shoot someone and he wouldn't lose any followers.
Speaker 2 (51:17):
Yeah, April, one last plug for your book before I
let you go. April and I are on a panel
in an hour two and a half hours talking about
Christian nationalism. We're going to provide an example of two
people who have a few disagreements here and there, and
we are absolutely allies and on the same I feel
(51:38):
like about you the way I feel about Amanda Tyler
at Christians against Christian Nationalism, and Andrew Whitehead and doctor
Robert Jones, I mean believers, Rachel Lazard Americans United, I
mean heroes in the fight against state church overreach in
this attack on the Constitution. And what you do is
critical and it's important and it's amazing, and so I'm
(52:02):
honored to take the stage with you. I think we're
going to I think we're going to do pretty good.
I hope.
Speaker 3 (52:06):
So, Yeah, I'm excited to be up there with you too.
Speaker 2 (52:09):
All right. Name of the book and where do people
find your work?
Speaker 3 (52:12):
It's called Star Spangled Jesus. You can get that wherever
books are sold. There's also an audiobook that I narrate,
and you can find me on the interweb at April
joy A Joi TikTok, Instagram, Facebook, YouTube threads, blue sky x.
There's way too many.
Speaker 2 (52:30):
I will put links in the description wherever in the
show notes of this conversation. April, You're amazing, Thanks for
talking to me, Thanks for having me.
Speaker 1 (52:39):
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