Israel, Palestine, Liberty, and the Left (with Jasmin Faulk)

Jasmin Faulk is an ex-Muslim human rights activist with an insider's perspective on Islam, the war on women, and the often awkward perspectives of the West.

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Episode Transcript

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Speaker 4 (00:56):
Jasmine Folk is a human rights activist. I'm not trying
to like oversell it you are. You're a human rights
activist focusing mostly on what women's.

Speaker 3 (01:08):
Rights, primarily as specifically women's rights in the.

Speaker 2 (01:11):
Middle East, because you were a product.

Speaker 3 (01:14):
Of the Middle Eastern upbringing under Islamic rule in the
nineteen seventies, eighties, and nineties, as a woman growing up
in Saudi Arabia under the most fundamental and extremist form
of Islam.

Speaker 2 (01:26):
So are you're multi lingual, then I am.

Speaker 3 (01:28):
I'm trilingual. To be precise, excuse me, I liked I'd
like to say multi lingual, because I do speak three
languages fluently, Italian, which is my mother's native tongue, Arabic,
my father's English obviously, as you can hear me right now.
And I'd like to say I can manage in Spanish,
but my Spanish always turns into Italian.

Speaker 4 (01:48):
But you spent twenty five years in Saudi Arabia, I did.
So what's that look like you in the veil?

Speaker 3 (01:56):
Pretty much? Yeah, you can imagine from the age of
ten eleven twelve. I'd say between ten and eleven was
when I was officially veiled, because that's when I hit.

Speaker 2 (02:06):
Puberty become a woman, think.

Speaker 3 (02:08):
Came a woman officially, correct, And so at that point,
you know, you cover up, you're out in society, and
you are treated like an adult woman. Not that adult
women are treated well under those circumstances, but essentially, even
as a child, you are expected to uphold the same
exact expectations and rules and regulations and behaviors and conduct
that an adult woman would, which is essentially covering from

(02:31):
head to toe. And this was during the time when
women were literally covered like face cover, the abayah or
the black cape on the shoulders or the head, covering
any sign of your physical body, your shape, sometimes even
your skin. Some women even wore gloves where you couldn't
even see the complexion. And then when you're out in public,

(02:51):
your silence, your voice needs to be hush, hush.

Speaker 4 (02:53):
So you the job is covering the hair, and is
it the nikab that covers the face that which one
makes you look like a bee keeper?

Speaker 3 (03:01):
Good question? Okay, all right, thank you. I love talking
about this. So the hy job is essentially what a
woman wears around her hair so you can only see
her face. That's a hit job. And the hey job
is essentially a devotional Islamic garb. So a woman that
wears a hyjob, she has devoted herself to the religion
and to the faith, and she will always wear the

(03:21):
hey job, whether in public in private. If it's just
her male guardians like her husband's sons, brothers, or father,
she doesn't need to wear it. But around any other man, cousins, friends, relatives, whatever,
she wears the heyjob and around non Muslim women, so
that's a choice. It's almost like a nun that's her
garb with the nikab and the burka. You probably hear

(03:41):
the borga as well, which is the boga. Okay, So
the burgha is essentially the Bedouin kind of traditional clothing.
It's the face cover but leaves the eyes open, but
it leaves the eyes open fairly wide, and there's a
line almost like a thread that comes down on the nose,
on the bridge of the nose between the eyes, and
some there's embroidery or beads. So it's a traditional face cover.

(04:04):
And that's the boga. That's a Bedouin traditional face cover.
The nikob, which we also hear about, is not what
you see Afghani women wearing. I don't know why that's
been called nikob, but the nikob traditionally in the Middle
East where it was born, because it's an Arabic word,
is more maybe not the bee keeper, that's what they
call nikov That is a very Afghany thing. Air women

(04:26):
don't wear that, So that is an Afghany thing. That
is a totally different thing, different language, different people's everything.
But the nicob officially where I was growing up and
where it was very much in use, and I've also
had to wear it is essentially it's a very very
thin slit in front of the eyes and it's just
like this tiny little opening in front of the eyes
and the rest is all covered. So it's similar to
the original Bedouin Burga, but it's thinner. The opening is

(04:49):
much tighter and you can barely like see through.

Speaker 2 (04:53):
What I was interested in.

Speaker 4 (04:54):
When I spoke to another ex Muslim female, she was like,
it actually has the opposite effects supposed to do. Is
it's supposed to de sexualize you, right, it dehumanizes really,
But she's like, it actually produced the opposite, sort of
a forbidden fruit effect, right, because the more you were covered,
the more you were actually sexualized us.

Speaker 3 (05:15):
And especially if your eyes only were visually available, it
could do a lot of things with the eyes.

Speaker 4 (05:21):
I saw some of those slits in the head covering
where they were wearing eye makeup.

Speaker 3 (05:26):
That a thing technically they're not supposed to. So if
a religious police, a member of the religious police, see that,
they will completely harass you and they'll tell you to
cover completely, like just throw the whole veil on your face,
which has happened many times. I've experienced that. But usually
when girls are doing that, one of two things are happening.
Either it's because they just happen to be made up
underneath and they're you know, that's just maybe they're not

(05:48):
that concerned about having their eyes made up, or they're
intentionally doing that because they want some sense of femininity
and maybe attract attention in some way power, but also
just a little bit of attention. Because that's that was
a co between young girls and young boys. Is just
kind of this is what I have to offer you,
and you know, it was an interesting exchange.

Speaker 2 (06:06):
I think it was true.

Speaker 4 (06:07):
And Iran, tell me if this was the case in
Saudi Arabia that in a court of law you had
to have two females witnesses for everyone male.

Speaker 2 (06:16):
Is that close?

Speaker 3 (06:17):
Thank you for asking that question, because I tend to
bring up the conversation around the fact that in the
Islamic law, the woman is half the value of the man,
and anytime Muslims hear me say this, they get very
offended and they say, I did not understand the interpretation
of the Koran or of the scripture. Fair enough, perhaps
I didn't. I will tell you what that law means,

(06:38):
and then you tell me if you think that that
is translated into the woman is half the value of
a man. So in an inheritance, the woman gets half
of what her male relatives get. So if a father dies,
the sisters get half of what the brothers get. The
mother gets half of what her son gets. So that
is one way. The other way is if there is
a crime that is committed, you do need, as you mentioned,

(07:01):
two female witnesses to one. If you have one female witness,
it's not enough. If you have a male witness, that's enough.

Speaker 2 (07:06):
In public, did you always have to have a male escort?

Speaker 3 (07:10):
Ideally yes, so if the religious police was around you,
they would definitely give you a hard time about the
fact that you are in public without a male guardian,
and that is a problem. The government at the time
did not necessarily enforce it through this kind of a
generic rule because they expected women would have to go
shopping sometimes alone. The man is not always available to
the women, and so there were times when but it

(07:31):
depended on why the women were out in public. If
you were shopping, you were doing something reasonable, well, sure
of course we'll justify it. But to just be out
to have fun, of course not.

Speaker 4 (07:40):
I have to come back to this term I've heard
you use at least twice religious police. Yes, let's not
even look like so.

Speaker 3 (07:48):
The religious police were a very prominent, visually visible entity
in Saudi Arabia in the nineteen primarily eighties and nineties.
They're known as the Mattawa. If anybody's hearing this, and
they've spent any time in Saudi Arabia, including foreigners, everybody
knows who the Mabawa were at the moment from what
I hear based on the changes that are happening in

(08:08):
Saudi Arabia and the kind of the progressive movement that's
happened since twenty eighteen, Supposedly they are no longer in power.
I think the establishment still exists, but they don't hold
power anymore because the current defacto king and the Crown
Prince has taken that power away from them. But at
the time, basically they were law enforcement. So you would
visually see police officers on the sides of a potentially

(08:32):
one or two men in the middle who are dressed
in traditional clothes. If anyone remembers what Osama bin laden
look like, that's what they look like. The long beard,
the headdress, the thob, which is the long male dress
usually short at the ankle because that's a symbol of
devout religious humility, and then the big cape, and they

(08:53):
would walk around with a cane and if they saw
women who were not behaving according to their standard, they
could beat the woman. They could grab the women, throw
them in a suburban GMC truck and take them to
a prison.

Speaker 4 (09:07):
I love these stories out of Iran with the Iran Revolution,
these extremely brave women who are like they're ripping the
head coverings off of the clerics and running down the street,
and they are burning their own coverings, and you know
they're standing in the street saying we are people, and
many of those folks are paying with their very lives.
Anything like that going on in Saudi Arabia, Well, at

(09:28):
the moment, there's no need for that, because a lot
of changes have happened.

Speaker 3 (09:32):
I have not been back to Saudi Arabia since nineteen
ninety nine, but I hear obviously through the grapevine and
obviously everything we see in here in social media and
the news. So at the moment, I don't think those
are practices that are necessarily needing to take place. But
when I was growing up, certainly women have tried that
and gotten in a lot of trouble.

Speaker 4 (09:49):
So right now it seems like Saudi Arabia is kind
of running for office. I mean, how do I say this?
I feel like there's a massive pr campaign to westernize it,
to make our doors open, and we're like, wow, you know,
they become much more progressive.

Speaker 2 (10:06):
Look now women can drive.

Speaker 4 (10:10):
As if you know, we're supposed to say welcome to
you know that welcome to this century.

Speaker 3 (10:15):
Right. It's like when they say, look at that dad,
he's so good. He's babysitting as kids. So you don't babysit.
Your kids are your kids, that's your job. You should
have done that all along. You're doing good things for women. Great.
Do we need to just applaud it as all of
a sudden it's the greatest thing. Sure, I mean, we
can celebrate it. My concern is we can celebrate it,
but we can't forget and deny what has happened in
the past. So we don't just gloss over, you know,

(10:38):
the three four or five decades of oppression that women
experienced and not address it, because perpetually this will repeat
itself if we don't address it and recognize that it
was a problem.

Speaker 4 (10:50):
More concern, we're in bed with Saudi Arabia, they're in
bed with us What the hell's that about?

Speaker 2 (10:55):
Is it all? Is it just money?

Speaker 3 (10:57):
Sure? I mean it started in the nineteen fifties when
oil was discuss a great convenience relationship, which you know,
I try not to be a political analyst in the
sense that I want to necessarily analyze, because every government
on this planet is or at some point has been corrupt.
So I can appreciate that that has become the global

(11:18):
style of communication. That's all fine. What I find a
problem with is when we allow our interests to completely
bypass human rights. And this is what's happening between the
West and countries like Saudi Arabia.

Speaker 4 (11:30):
We just look the other way. Holy, you're going to
execute journalists. You're going to be head people in the
streets without due processes. If I was a proponent of
beheading anyway. The documentary Dissident just put a chill through
my spine at the power. Obviously they're extremely well funded,
their influences major and now they're like high fiving all

(11:50):
of these Western powers.

Speaker 3 (11:52):
It's terrifying, it is, and what terrified So I expect
that from you know, governments for the most part, to
behave that way. What concerns me more is the people
is the lack of understanding and information that people within
their societies have. For example, in the United States, we
hear a lot of call to action and activism for

(12:13):
what's happening in Palestine right now. Fantastic, that's great. What
I have concerns with is that the call to action
is completely out of place. So, yes, they're calling for
the horrors that are happening to the children and the
people who are being murdered, killed and starved and genocided
and all of that, But at the same time, there's

(12:34):
this equation of queer rights to the Palestinian rights. I
do not see the correlation. Not only is it completely
counter to what that culture believes, which is a very
homophobic and transphobic and LGBT phobic and all of that,
so it already has a stabilized approach anti these you know, ideologies.

(12:54):
And at the same time, I've never heard anyone say,
hang on a minute, what about the women that are
there that for century have been living under oppression. They
have forgotten what the purpose is, and so they walk
around wearing the Arab the male Arab garb in protest
or in solidarity, who walks around wearing the Westerners Americans.

Speaker 4 (13:12):
Okay, So people who are here and perhaps for the
noblest of reasons, are making a blanket pro Palestine demonstration. Yes,
they're dressing in a covering, which is a male covering.

Speaker 3 (13:22):
Correct, the kafia what they wear, which in Palestine it's
called kafia where I come from, it's a schamach or's
other names based on the color and the material. But
what they're wearing is the Palestinian one, and it is
a symbol of Yes, I understand, it's a symbol of Palestine.
And by the way, I want everyone to be pro
Palestine and calling out what's happening there. It's the lack

(13:44):
of awareness of how much they've bypassed and they've gotten
just to the cherry on top, which is what's happening
right now. They have bypassed all the years and decades
of oppression and suffering that has happened in the region,
not only in Palestine at the hand of the Jewish government,
but in the Middle East as a whole under the

(14:04):
fundamentalism of Islam. And so at no point do I
see that solidarity actually calling for or questioning or opposing
or boycotting these relationships between the governments because of human
rights or because of women's rights.

Speaker 4 (14:22):
So much left to talk about, including the mess overseas
with Israel Palestine NET and Yahoo, Zionism, Hamas, and the
protest many student led protests pro Palestine protests that are
happening in the West for better and for worse. Wait
a minute, some of the protests are actually not helping.

(14:44):
We're going to talk to Jasmine fak and get her
perspective next. Thank you so much for listening and engaging.
Conversation continues with Jasmine fock At. It's Muslim and author
of the book The Last Sandstorm. So you open the

(15:07):
can of worms with Israel Palestine, So let's open it further. Sure,
So we look at a lot of religious people and
this was my background, Like my mother and father had
a pro Israel bumper sticker, Like they believe that Israel
is Zion, This is the end times. The Israeli state
must be protected at all costs. It's part of you know,

(15:27):
it's part of God's master plan before he returns and
all of that stuff happens heaven, et cetera. And so
what happened was they shut down any criticisms of what
Israel might have done culturally, politically, et cetera. Because Israel
must be supported, period. It just became a single sentence.
It was a bumper sticker. Today we'd call it a meme.

(15:49):
And I think what a lot of people, even on
the left, that I have seen, are missing, is that
nat and Yahoo may be guilty of genocide, but a
ton of Israel can't stand and disagree with Netan Yahoo.

Speaker 3 (16:04):
Absolutely. That is another example where we are not differentiating
between the people and the government. So you can criticize
the Israeli government all day long. I'm thrilled to hear that,
and it's in Yahoo and the people, but there are
so many Jewish people who don't deserve what's happening to them,
and there are so many Jewish people who are speaking

(16:25):
up against their own government on behalf of the Palestinians. Now,
where I get frustrated with the left and the Western
approach and all of that is that not only are
they standing pro Palestine, they are definitely becoming so anti
Jewish that they are forgetting to differentiate between the people
and the government, all while they are defending Hamas. That

(16:47):
is a very horrifically fundamentally terrorist organization that perpetuates fundamentalist,
extremist Islam on the women of the region. So there's
nothing redeeming about Hamas. They are ter and they are
fundamentalist extremists. And I do not understand how the correlation
of standing by Palestine equates also defending radicals and then

(17:09):
perpetuating that hate against the innocent Jews.

Speaker 4 (17:11):
Right, Jasman, help me understand this. Aren't the Palestinian people
under the boot of Hamas that were pressed by Hamas?
I mean the idea is by many that well, hey,
they could have revolted against Hamas. They must want an
Islamic state, they must want to overtake they must hate
Israelis all of them. Right, we're speaking in binaries again.

Speaker 3 (17:31):
Of course.

Speaker 4 (17:31):
So I mean, from your perspective, how do you deal
with the mess that is Goza, Palestine, etc.

Speaker 3 (17:37):
So let's just disclose right away that not all Palestinians
are Muslim, and we tend to forget that there are
many Palestinians who are Christian, some also Jewish. So Hamas
is an Islamic organization. It's a political Islamic radical terrorist organization.
And yes, they do have a choke hold on the Palestinians.
But the Palestinians don't necessarily all subscribe to that ideology.

(18:00):
If there are some who support Hamas, it's probably because
they are the underdog and they have hope that someone
will come and rescue them.

Speaker 2 (18:08):
I e.

Speaker 3 (18:08):
Hamas could take over survival, absolutely, but it's really hard
to hold a very oppressed, essentially tortured people accountable for
what they have nothing of, and that is control.

Speaker 4 (18:23):
So if someone said, hell, they could have overthrown this
they may want, you know, Islamic rule or Islamic extremism,
you would be much more charitable than say, these are
people who who may not have many choices.

Speaker 3 (18:35):
They have no choices in fact, and not only that,
I can even appreciate that argument if those same people, who,
by the way, are usually also supporting if they are
supporting Palsin, they're also supporting Hamas because they don't differentiate
between the two. So essentially, if we're looking at the
people themselves, they are I mean the greatest victims in

(18:57):
this argument, it would the same argument then could be
said to the Jews of the Holocaust, I mean they
could have done something about it. You never look at
a victim and say, well, they could have revolted. They
could have said no, they could have overpowered all those
Nazi soldiers and taken over the concentration camps and broken free.

Speaker 4 (19:16):
There's an odd perspective I've got because I'm an atheist
and I'm not a Zionist obviously, but I think Israel
has a right to exist and protect itself as a
sovereign state. I think the Jewish people should be able
to have a sovereign state.

Speaker 2 (19:31):
And at the same time, I'm not a Zionist.

Speaker 4 (19:34):
I don't think it's part of the end times, nor
do I think it has to be protected at all costs,
no matter what they do.

Speaker 2 (19:39):
I don't know.

Speaker 4 (19:39):
I'm throwing that out there, like Israel has a right
to be Israel.

Speaker 2 (19:44):
I don't know. Am I wrong?

Speaker 3 (19:45):
No, You're not wrong. I think that also many Arabs
would agree with that. At this point in time, where
we live and where we exist and how things are going,
there has to be an agreement that both of those
two things can exist mutually, respectfully and safely. I think
many Palestinians would be okay with living under those circumstances
and conditions, and I think many Jews would feel the

(20:06):
same way. I think the two state solution is a
very valid approach, but it has to be a two
state solution. It can't be one overpowering.

Speaker 4 (20:13):
The other, colonizing, grabbing land, making sure it's disproportionate. We
have more than you, which is kind of the thing, right, Absolutely,
It's been that way for thousands of years.

Speaker 3 (20:22):
For thousands of years, the back and forth, and even
though both can claim having the right to that land,
it is fair to say due to history, religion, anything
you want to throw in the mix, I think this
is an area that should be negotiable. And you know
it is like, historically there has been validity for both
and it's never going to be any different unless they

(20:42):
reach a consensus that they will agree. Okay, well, we'll
figure it out once and for all.

Speaker 4 (20:46):
But how do you get around the Holy land aspect
of this. God gave us this land, it is our birthright.
Seems to be the calling card for many of the actions,
and I'm like, well, a lot of this is religiously motivated.
We see christian and Jews. I've seen a lot of
Evangelicals here in the United States, and they're like, it
all belongs to God, right, And then you do have

(21:08):
some people who they hate Israel and they think Israel
needs to be destroyed because they're the Infidel.

Speaker 2 (21:14):
Is that accurate?

Speaker 3 (21:15):
Oh, that's very accurate. That is a very powerful message.
I heard it my whole life growing up.

Speaker 2 (21:19):
And absolutely we taught to hate Jews, Oh.

Speaker 3 (21:23):
Absolutely, Oh yeah, oh very much so. I mean there
is a visceral hate between the two, and yet they
are essentially at the same time cousins and Semites and
supposed to live and co exist together. The stories in
the Islamic teachings have claimed to have Muslims and Jews
live side by side, and yet you know, this continues
and it's perpetuated today. What I will say to that, though,

(21:44):
is the fact that there is this part historically we're
in that area, and this is simplifying it very very much,
so reckon, But all religions have had some level of
presence in that little spot of the earth if we
like to believe in these, you know, stories, and some
may be slightly historically accurate, others or maybe fairy tales,

(22:07):
however we want to look at them. But there is
this claim that every religion has had a settlement in
that particular region, and so great make it a place
for all. You know, it does not have to be
like the Vatican only for Catholics or the Kaiba only
for Muslims. If it's true that all religions have cycled
through there, what a great way to create an ambassadorial

(22:29):
peace of the world where everyone can finally come together.

Speaker 4 (22:32):
But if you hate the other, if you've dehumanized the other,
who cares what happens to them? So exactly how do
you fix that? Do you go after the ideology and
try to appeal to their humanity? I mean, how many
thousands of years does this conflict have to go on?
I guess what I'm asking, Jasmine is how do we
fix the world?

Speaker 3 (22:51):
And that's why you and I are going to resolve today.

Speaker 2 (22:52):
Let's make out we just put us in charge.

Speaker 3 (22:55):
Right. It's unfortunate though, that the people who are in
charge have only one interest, and that's why these things
will never be solved, because they make us believe that
that's what it's about. But it really is about more
than that. Forgive the interruption.

Speaker 2 (23:09):
I'm so sorry.

Speaker 4 (23:10):
Please do you feel like that I know the answer,
you know the answer. I just want to hear you articulator,
because you're so good. People do what they want and
they say it's God's idea. You got to figure net
and Yaho is just doing what he wants to do,
and he's like, well, that's not my thing that I
was ordained by the almighty.

Speaker 3 (23:28):
Right absolutely, And then George Bush say that at one
point George w that he had to pray for it
to know what the answer was. That's a really amazing
and convenient way out. And I think we are pre
programmed to accept that. And if we don't accept and
by the way, we're seeing this happen not only in
religious spaces, but even in sort of social ideological spaces.

(23:50):
It's extremely convenient to have a cop out when you're
not taking full responsibility, but you really have to put
it in the hands of something greater than you. And
so then everyone has to sort of succumbent accept that
this is sort of the rationale of anything.

Speaker 4 (24:04):
So tell me, you just summarize your beef with how
Westerners have been doing pro Palestine protests. I don't know
what are you saying that causes you a moment of pause.

Speaker 3 (24:16):
So when October seventh happened, it was horrible, It was awful.
It was terrible under every point of view. What came
after that, the aftermath of Israel's response was I'd like
to say, initially equally horrible and then just went the
next level horrible. And I can see how that angered
the global community. I mean, the entire world is not

(24:38):
standing by Israel now today after standing by them when
this all happened. Fantastic. We're all on the same page
for the most part. I know a lot of people
are not, but I'm just saying from my perspective, many
are standing on this page. When I look at how
the West reacted to post October seventh, my first initial
wish was that those who really wanted to commit to

(25:02):
finding their voice in this movement and expressing their voice,
first and foremost is educating themselves on what that whole
conflict is about. And I'm specifically talking to young people.
It is amazing to see the excitements, the enthusiasm, the
exuberance in youth when they want to call out on
fairness and injustice. But at the same time, it is

(25:23):
not only fruitless, it's actually damaging if you come to
it without any knowledge or any background or any education.
So first and foremost, educate yourself to really understand what
the historic context of this conflict on October seventh is
related to. It's related to something far longer than that. Okay, great,
so if we start there, that's awesome. If we don't
start there, and or if we do start there, but
then we perpetuate a message that is completely unproductive, ie

(25:48):
the protests. Now, I've been an activist, I consider myself
an advocate now because I think activism is like a
fire that burns really really hot, really really fast, and
then when it's gone, poof, you got nothing left. But
advocacy is the coals and the fire that stays warm
underneath that then actually gets things done, i e. Keeping warmth,
cooking whatever. Those two have to go hand in hand.

(26:10):
But the activists, unfortunately right now, they be heav in
a way that they don't want anyone else to be
involved in the conversation. They just want to burn and
that's it. But then what do you have to show
for it? For example, all the protests non voters during
the election, I'm not voting because of the Palestinian issue. Okay,
you do realize that that non vote is actually a
really damaging outcome and a completely dangerous, potential circumstantial outcome.

Speaker 2 (26:36):
It became a de facto vote.

Speaker 3 (26:37):
Right exactly, and we're living the consequences of that. G Thanks.
Do we think that Kamalai Harris would have done great
on this issue. Probably not, but definitely on many other
issues better than what we're dealing with right now.

Speaker 2 (26:48):
There is a lesser evil, exactly.

Speaker 3 (26:51):
So that's one of the examples. The other example is
shutting down roads, going on college campuses, all of those things.
It's like, for a minute there, I'm like, yeah, I'm
on board with showing protests, show solidarity, take the signs,
go down in the streets, to do all that. But
if you're doing it in a way that then harms
other people, you have no leg to stand on. Because
when you're blocking highways and people can't get to work,

(27:13):
many of those people getting to work are probably immigrants,
maybe some of them even Palestinian immigrants, you know. Some
of them are probably undocumented people that should not be
you know, dangerously in a location where they could be
found and caught. And we can talk about that, you know,
in a different vein. But all I'm saying is that
you are putting a lot of people in danger who
are potentially at risk, and you don't care because you

(27:34):
have a message and you want to deliver that message.
And again you're perpetuating a chant that is completely empty
because you're getting no results from that. It is performative.
It lacks any interest or desire to actually understand the region,
to understand the people, to understand the culture, to differentiate

(27:54):
between culture and religion. There's so many pieces to this
lovely salad if you will fruit salad that you know
they're just picking the fruits that they like and they
don't want to deal with the other things that they
don't care about.

Speaker 4 (28:08):
You would agree, though, that there have been many times
where we need to be disruptors. Oh a hundred, disrupt
the system, one hundred, wrench in the work. Some would
argue that the end of the I don't know, raising
the shit storm at the college campuses and all that
stuff would qualify as good trouble.

Speaker 3 (28:25):
No so, yes and no. So. The yes part is
if you're going to protest and you're going to do that,
that's awesome. I don't have a problem with that. What
I do have a problem with is when those protests
then are harming the people who are there to get
an education. For example, other students who are maybe not protesters,
and maybe it's not their calling, that's not what they do.

(28:46):
Maybe they even agree with the protesters, but they just
want to go to school, get to class, do what
they need to do. They were harassed, they were stopped,
they were attacked, they were accused for being, you know,
genocidal because they're silent, they're not participating. That is not okay.
That to me, you lose your mission At this point,
I'm reminded of I'm trying to think of his name.

Speaker 4 (29:06):
It's been so many years, but it's along those same lines.
Everybody was the hero in their own story. A college
campus had a debate and there was like a human
rights advocate and a person who was considered very much
not and they were going to be on the debate
stage and engage each other, and the students shouted them

(29:27):
down and made it impossible for anybody to finish his sentence,
and before you know it, there were concerns for the
speaker's safety and they had to be escorted off the campus.

Speaker 2 (29:37):
Blah blah blah.

Speaker 4 (29:38):
So in theory, I think what they were thinking was
hate speech will not be allowed here. We are going
to take a stand for love by shouting down the
hate and not allowing this person to have a platform.
And it's one of those things. If you see it
on a bumper sticker, it sounds rather noble. I myself
would like to have seen the exchange, absolutely to a

(30:00):
exchanging even the best or worst of ideas in a
form where those can be assessed by everybody else. Everybody
was there under agreed terms, and yet there were people
acting really in destructive and counterproductive ways who felt like
they were the heroes in that story.

Speaker 3 (30:15):
And that is what I'm most worried about at the moment.
What's happening on the left is this, Well, I know
people don't like hearing things like.

Speaker 4 (30:23):
That, Damn centrist, you've sold out your liberal value.

Speaker 3 (30:27):
Absolutely, I am now considered a conservative or a leaning
right in all of these accusations, and I keep saying, actually,
liberals haven't moved. Liberals are exactly where they've always been,
which is standing firm on the space of everyone has
the right and is entitled to live and let live
as long as you're not crossing obviously legal terms and harm.

(30:49):
If you're not doing any one of those things, I
don't care. You can all exist. I literally don't care.
But what's happened on the left is they've moved so
far that they have then, you know, left us anchored
liberals in a space where it's like, oh wait, this
is no longer on the left. This is truly somewhere
in the middle, I guess, or maybe in space. I
don't know, because I truly don't think we are anywhere

(31:10):
on the spectrum for real. But that left has leaned
so hard in the direction that to me, it's like
a swing when it goes over the bar. You have
literally now gone to the other side. Where we used
to accuse the right of being the ones who censor
who's silence. You can't say this, you can't say that.
That's happening on the left in my opinion now even
more than the right.

Speaker 4 (31:27):
Now, what happens I mean to anybody, any tribe can
be dogmatic. We've talked to I think gave a speech
I guess a couple of years ago where we talked
about how a lot of times many of the overt
things people say and do in an in group are
signaling to the in group that they're still worthy of membership.
Right I sure don't want to get kicked out. I
don't want to be accused of blasphemy and then become

(31:49):
othered and then they're going to commit themselves to destroy me.

Speaker 2 (31:52):
So here, look how worthy I am.

Speaker 3 (31:54):
And they probably don't even care or even believe that,
but they say it because God forbid, you get can
sold or you get kicked out of your tribe.

Speaker 4 (32:02):
Oh you're giving covered to the right wingers by saying that,
and I'm making a nuanced position.

Speaker 3 (32:08):
Well see that's but see that's the problem. That is
the absolute problem is that right now we are so terrified,
and in my opinion, it's the collapse has already happened
from within if the left does not wake up and
actually find a way to unify with all their differences,
because the left is a far greater umbrella than the right.
The right is pretty one minded. It's got one mission

(32:29):
for the most part, one mind, one trajectory, you know, nationalism,
whatever you want to call it. They're headed in that
same direction altogether. Many conservatives unfortunately don't fall in that
line and have found themselves somewhat politically homeless. But the
left has always prided itself of being a large umbrella
that welcomes so many different perspectives and ways of life.

(32:50):
That is an amazing thing. But they're now playing the
hierarchy game there because some are more important than others,
some voices are more valued than others. And if you
happen to have this voice and this voice somehow contradicts
my voice, then we are going to class and I'm
going to get angry at you. I'm going to cancel you.

Speaker 4 (33:06):
Okay, people are wondering what specifically are we referring to.
I'll throw this out. We'll give some red meat for
the conversation. Okay, So on the left, because we want
to make sure that we are not being bigoted or
discriminatory against people of color. A lot of people have
decided Muslims are a race. Islam is a race and

(33:29):
not an idea, not a truth claim, not a religion.
Muslims are I guess brown people.

Speaker 2 (33:34):
I don't know. I mean, it's that's the thinking, right.

Speaker 4 (33:37):
So if you criticize Islam, then you are guilty of islamophobia.
If you insult the profit, etc. If you think the
hit job should not be on the cover of Cosmo,
you know, oh, you're so islamophobic then you get targeted
by people who, even again for the noblest of reasons,
who want to be there to support women who are

(33:58):
being oppressed. Essentially, they're giving couverty Islam. I mean I
think they are. I don't know, what do you think?

Speaker 3 (34:06):
One hundred percent?

Speaker 2 (34:08):
Okay?

Speaker 3 (34:08):
Absolutely, I am allergic to the term Islamophobia.

Speaker 2 (34:11):
Yeah, and I think it's a bullshit term.

Speaker 3 (34:13):
It's a bullshit term, and it is so harmful and damaging.
And you want to hear what's even more aggravating than
that that me, as an ex Muslim woman who lived
under that oppressive ideology for twenty five years. When I
say this, the left, the Westerners, the non Arabs, the
non Muslims have the nerve to tell me I'm Islamophobic

(34:34):
when I'm calling out the problems on the Islamic fundamentalists.

Speaker 2 (34:38):
So you get it from two sides.

Speaker 4 (34:39):
Oh yeah, you've got over here you have angered the profit,
you infidel, And over here they're like, you're an islamophobe,
you infidel.

Speaker 3 (34:46):
Absolutely, And that's what really really gets me. It's like,
first of all, you don't know the first thing about
what you're even defending. I am not necessarily saying go
and hate on Muslims. Absolutely not, That's not what I'm saying.
I don't think you should hate on any human being,
regardless of what their ideology, belief system, or religious affiliation is.
That is, in my opinion, my true classic liberalism. Live

(35:09):
and let live. If the religion serves you, fantastic. If
the religion is going to infringe upon other people, that
is a problem. That is what you can question. But
Islam specifically, for some reason, and I'm not sure why
the West has bought into this, it stands and completely
is glorified above anything else and any other religion. It

(35:31):
is the only ideology that is not criticized. Religiously speaking.
There's other ideologies we don't criticize, but religiously speaking, Islam
is the only one that no one will touch and
there's a fear around it. So yeah, the propaganda of
Islamic fundamentalism is powerful because they managed to scare the
entire world from criticizing it, and they've the West, so

(35:54):
to speak, the left in the West have turned it
into either a race, ethnic or national origin ideology as
opposed to it is just a religion, like Christianity, like Judaism,
like any other religion that's worthy of criticism.

Speaker 4 (36:06):
Sometimes I feel like if I just use the right words,
the problem is is the words require more than one's sentence.
No one should ever be told that they cannot wear
the veil right. The whole point is a woman should
have the right to wear what she wants. At the
same time, let's not celebrate the veil as long as
it is being used as a weapon to dehumanize and oppress.

(36:27):
Those two things can exist in the same space. I'm
not going to tell a woman what to wear, but
let's not put them on the cover of Cosmo and
make it all glam and sexy and look how progressive
we are, because that then gives cover to the people
who are dehumanizing people with the hijab.

Speaker 3 (36:45):
When that action takes place, I know that they say, well,
we are letting other people see themselves. Nothing is more
powerful than representation. So Muslim women feel represented and they
feel seen. Well, what about all the women who are
victims of that ideology and that belief system. Has anyone
thought about them? Has anyone thought about how this impacts
the women who are under that repressive, oppressive ideology and

(37:09):
way of life. You can't have it both ways.

Speaker 4 (37:13):
Final segments, Let's get into Islam. You know, the definition
of Islam is peace question mark. We're going to talk
to Jasmine Falk about the definition of the word Islam,
Muslim women who are risking their lives at this very moment,
and we're going to chat about the Jesus of Islam.

Speaker 2 (37:34):
Next.

Speaker 4 (37:39):
Here was the final segment of my conversation with Italian
Arab American ex Muslim author and activist Jasmine fuck Let
me ask you this question. Is there a difference in
your mind between Muslim and Islamist.

Speaker 3 (37:56):
Oh? Wow, that's a good question. So Muslim is the
person as we know Islam is the religion. An Islamist
in my opinion, and this is a fairly new term.
This is not a term that is equated when you
are talking exclusively about the faith. So normally Islam is
the religion. A person who follows Islam is a Muslim,
and Islamist is someone who upholds the religion and its

(38:19):
ideological system somewhat in extremism. That's my interpretation when I
think of Islamist, that's what I'm hearing. I'm hearing of
someone that is putting the religion in a fundamentalist ideological
process first and foremost as opposed to a Muslim, which,
by the way, the word Muslim in Arabic comes from.

(38:40):
So the word Islam the religion means surrender. A Muslim
is someone who has surrendered. You have surrendered to God,
that you have devout and you've surrendered. But an Islamist
is someone that it's taking it to the next level.

Speaker 4 (38:53):
Don't the clerics deny that, don't They say that Islam
is defined as something else. I don't know, they deny
that it means surrender to all. Uh, it's supposed to
be a term of empowermental.

Speaker 3 (39:04):
Okay, fair. So the word surrender exactly an error because
it is the Slam that means surrender is the Slam.
Islam is probably a combination. And again, if people want
to correct me, that's fine. It's probably a combination of
both surrender and peace. So Salem is peace is the

(39:26):
Slum is surrender, and Islam, I believe, is probably a
combination of those two words.

Speaker 4 (39:32):
We're still talking about surrender, which seems to be the
calling card for most fundamentalist cultures. You are surrendering your
identity for the identity of the group or the God.

Speaker 2 (39:43):
I mean, would that be accurate?

Speaker 3 (39:44):
That is accurate. And that's why it surprises me that
people are arguing that that statement, because if that is
your belief system, there's nothing more beautiful than the affirming
that you have surrendered to God.

Speaker 4 (39:54):
Isn't it true though, that most Muslims just want to live.
They're peace. Love's the West in my Like, I'm in Oklahoma.
So if I go and I say, oh, we had
a Muslim family move in next door, I kid you not,
their first thought is probably going to be wow. I
hope they don't shut up with it with a dynamite
vest on, right. I mean they think Muslim nine to eleven,

(40:16):
you know, they think Muslim they're going to blow themselves
up and get the virgins and all that. It's this
extremely terrifyingly reductive look. But the vast majority of Muslims
are like I think most Christians. They practice a cultural faith.
They may pray five times a day, who knows, but
they don't want to harm anybody. I'm not giving. I'm
not excusing the religion.

Speaker 2 (40:37):
I don't know. Jasmine, back me up here, tell me
what do you think?

Speaker 3 (40:40):
Completely agree with you? The majority of Muslims are kind people.
Most of them are not extremists. The majority are not extremists.
So let me break it down this way. So and
this is again where the confusion comes. So Islam is
the religion, the faith within Islam. You have the Arabs,
you have the Southeast Asians, which are the fastest growing

(41:01):
Muslim populations in the world, which is why Islam is
so widespread because a lot of Southeast Asians are now Muslim.
And then you have you know, Islam's spread North Africa,
which of course are also Arab countries, and then you
have it spread sort of in Eastern Europe and now
also beyond. So when you look at it that way,
you can imagine that while they all share the religion,

(41:22):
they all have their own natural, cultural, traditional national practices,
so their religion is interpreted or lived in a very
different way from someone in the Middle East, story in
Southeast Asia, or you know, everyone is going to have
an approach to their religion based on their cultural influences
and their historic context. That is really important to differentiate

(41:44):
because for some it is not only their way of life,
it's also their language. So for Arabs, Islam is also
their language, but for Southeast Asians, it's not their language.
For Eastern Europeans, it's not their language. Now they can
learn Arabic. So the nuances of how you are affected
or impacted by religion is also tied to your cultural

(42:05):
and traditional practices. When I say all this, I say
it to reference the fact that the extremist and fundamentalist
ideologies of Islam are in pockets, in very small pockets
in the world that are not widespread in every Muslim
community and maybe even every Muslim country, but in small
pockets they have taken so much power. They have monopolized

(42:28):
the religion everywhere in the world, and they have absolutely
fearmongered anyone that has any association with Islam. So to conclude,
I will say this, Muslims who are anywhere in the
world are just people, like you said, wanting to live
their lives, to live calmly, to live peacefully. When I
say we have to critique fundamentalism and radicalism and extremism,

(42:50):
I'm talking about the ideologies and the implementation and permission
to implement those ideologies, whether it's in cultures, in governments,
or in societies.

Speaker 4 (43:00):
The women in Iran part of the Iran Revolution, right women,
life freedom. They're putting their lives on the line for
equality and autonomy. And they're largely Muslims, right, Yeah, so.

Speaker 3 (43:14):
They are, and many of them probably want to hold
on to that Muslim identity. From a cultural perspective, many
of them probably want nothing to do with the religion.
Many of them probably want to hold on to some
level of religion and spirituality and faith, but on their
own terms and maybe in a more progressive secular way.
I know those things don't sound like they'd go together,
secular and religion, but it can work, especially in Islam.

(43:37):
I mean, it hasn't been practiced very frequently.

Speaker 4 (43:39):
Yeah, you're someone who probably uses the Muslim culture is
more of an esthetic exactly. It's the framework for the
human existence, but you don't necessarily hold it the dog.

Speaker 2 (43:52):
Would that be a fair way to say totally?

Speaker 3 (43:54):
And maybe you're following some rituals, for example, the month
of Ramadan. Maybe you'll fast the month of Ramadan because
that is both a kind of a tradition for most Muslims.
You'll fast the whole month, you'll do all the rituals
during that time, but maybe all year you're not going
to pray five times a day, for example. So you're
still ritualistically doing some Islamic practices, but you're not necessarily
doing every single expectation. So those Muslims do exist, They

(44:17):
absolutely exist. And those women in Irana are absolutely risking
their lives and I stand by them, and they do
want to just be members of the global society in
a way that does not put them either in that
oppressed and completely erased way, but also at the same
time without being a threat to the rest of the
world and being seen as you know, Islamic terrorists or

(44:39):
part of the problem.

Speaker 4 (44:40):
There's a way to advocate for them without advocating for
those who oppress them. And that's when it gets messy,
you know. You talk about we talked about the aesthetic
of the religion. It's like the Jewish faith. The vast
majority I think of Jews are mostly secular, many or
non believers outright. But they like the clothing, they like
the music, they like the traditions and the customs and

(45:02):
the food, and for them it sort of colors the
human existence.

Speaker 2 (45:05):
I'm down with that, ah.

Speaker 3 (45:07):
But here's where the difference is. And this is where
the Jews are lucky. Because the Jews are both. It's
both their religion and their ethnic identity. It's also who
they are as a people. Islam is not an ethnic identity.
Anyone can be Muslim, but you have to be Jewish
to be a Jew.

Speaker 4 (45:24):
Now, I can't decide I'm going to follow Judaism and
be Jewish based on.

Speaker 3 (45:30):
My understanding, and I'm not going to speak on behalf
of the Jewish. Here's my understanding because I've asked some
Jewish friends. If you are Jewish by ethnicity, you are Jewish,
and usually it's you are born of a Jewish mother.
If you're born of a Jewish father, you're a technically
not as Jewish as I will probably be corrected if
I'm wrong. This is information I heard from actual Jewish

(45:53):
friends who have explained it to me. This way, you
can convert and become Jewish, especially if you marry into,
you know, a Jewish family. You can make that choice.
I believe Ivanka Trump did that, so I've heard. But
I think there are rituals you have to practice and
you have to sort of It's not as easy as any.

Speaker 2 (46:11):
Other religion to assimilar.

Speaker 3 (46:13):
You have to similar, and then you have to be
accepted and you have to acknowledge that you are Jewish,
probably by faith now and not by identity and ethnicity. Muslims,
on the other hand, all you have to do is say,
Ahammad and you're a Muslim, and that is I declare
that there's only one God and that God is a
lot and Rahammad is his messenger. All you need to

(46:34):
say is that, and you are a Muslim. Then after that,
of course you have to do all the practice and
the rituals, because if you don't, then now you are
not only not doing the faith based rituals, now you're
a really bad Muslim because you've become a Muslim and
you're not doing it.

Speaker 4 (46:48):
Which brings me to the point of how much of
that as just being a parrot. Most of the times
I've heard in Islamic apologist, they seem to be just
throwing recitations at me, not understand standing. Do they teach
in Islam just to vomit out the text without meaning?

Speaker 3 (47:08):
So it depends where you're asking this question. In some areas,
they teach Islam and they really want to understand it,
and they turn it into an actual academic, scholarly process.
Great countries like Egypt have done that. Countries like Syria,
and you know, I don't know if it's still the
norm and the practice. But in history we know that
they have been scholars and have been really good at

(47:30):
kind of understanding the historic context and the interpretive contexts.
But in other areas where it's a lot more fundamental Iran, Afghanistan,
Saudi Arabia, until recently or maybe until now, I'm not sure,
they teach you verbatim the religion and you just have
to take it as is now. One thing that I
tend to share is when I went to school, I

(47:51):
went to a private school. I went to school where
their royal family went to the school with me. So
it was a private school. We had again girls and
boys segregated. But out of all the subjects that we learned,
which included math and biology and physics and literature, Arabic
literature and grammar and all that, there were nine subjects
that were all tied to Islam. Nine subjects that were
only exclusively tied to Islam. Qoran, the reading of the Koran,

(48:13):
the memorization of the Koran, the learning of the pronunciation
of the Koran, the interpretation of the Koran. Then you
have the hadith, which are the prophet sayings. Then you
have fika, which is basically the rituals. Then you have faith,
and then you have what am I forgetting a couple
of more?

Speaker 2 (48:29):
Oh you got seven? That's impressive, right.

Speaker 3 (48:31):
And so those are the subjects that we're taught in school.
So there's not a lot of room to say I
didn't get enough information, Can I know more about this?
Or can I ask a question here? Because they are
feeding you all that information and according to the style
of teaching, we're giving you everything you need to know.
There's no questions to be asked. The answers are all there.

(48:52):
If you happen to ask a question, like my question
in school was, teacher, excuse me, if you're saying that
music is hat on it's a which is what fundamentals
Muslims believe, then why would God, who creates everything perfectly,
create Beethoven? Why did he create Beethoven with the genius
that he had musically? Why would he create him like
that to make him suffer? And my teacher's answer was,

(49:14):
those are the things we don't ask because only God
knows those answers. And the phrasing era because elmerib which
means it's in the knowing is in the unknown. In
other words, only God knows.

Speaker 4 (49:25):
The mystery is part of the journey, and it's a
trust exercise.

Speaker 3 (49:29):
Totally in allah surrender.

Speaker 4 (49:31):
Or you know, Christians do that with God right. His
ways are not my ways. Who knows the mind of
God exactly.

Speaker 3 (49:38):
And one thing I always like to share is the
fact that there are not many differences between Islam and
Christianity in terms of the stories that are told. And
you know the history of the different prophets and the tribes,
all of those, those are the same stories in the Koran.
The most fundamental difference between the two religions is the

(49:59):
fact that Muslims believe that there's only one God and
Christians believe that Jesus is the son of God.

Speaker 2 (50:04):
Isn't Jesus part of Islam? He is.

Speaker 3 (50:06):
He's a very revered and beloved prophet, not the son
of God of God, absolutely not. And his mother, the
Virgin Mary, is the most revered woman in Islam and
probably the only woman that's mentioned in the Koran.

Speaker 4 (50:19):
You don't think of Mary and Islam media.

Speaker 2 (50:22):
That's a whole other conversation, Joe.

Speaker 3 (50:23):
There's a whole sura in the Qoran titled medium. It's
the only you know, place where a woman is acknowledged.

Speaker 4 (50:30):
Makes you wonder if Mary showed up and walked the
streets of Saudi Arabia, if they would force her to
wear their bail you know.

Speaker 2 (50:36):
Oh cover up, Mary, damn it.

Speaker 4 (50:38):
Actly, you're going to need someone else to join you
in court. By the way, let's end up with a
message to forget. I don't know how has to say
it other than the West, but you know we're recording
this in Canada.

Speaker 2 (50:52):
I'm from the United States.

Speaker 4 (50:54):
We're not great at speaking about issues regarding to Islamism,
Islamist extremism, Muslim the Muslim faith, because it's really, in
many ways not our wheelhouse. We don't see it on
every corner, and tragically we're not really all that. We're
not as interested as we should be considering the influence
Islam and Islamist have in the world. What's your message

(51:16):
to anybody within your shot who lives on this side
of the planet.

Speaker 3 (51:21):
So the first thing I'll say to that is Islam
is not a monolithic system at all. So this idea
that we have to approach Islam as a thing is
wrong to begin with and really needs to change. Islam
is a very complex religion with so many sects, with
so many lineages, with so many ideologies, and so many
belief systems, not only between the Sunnis and the Shiahites,

(51:43):
but even within the Sunisia have the Humbli, the Malki,
and it just goes on and on. The Shiahites have
the same and it continues to evolve as time goes.
So that's the first thing. Stop thinking of Islam as
a monolithic religion. Number one. Number two, If you are
interested in knowing more about the religion, read it from
a scholarly standpoint, but also read the Koran and the
interpretation of the Koran.

Speaker 4 (52:04):
God, don't make me read the Koran. I started the
Koran and it was numbing.

Speaker 2 (52:09):
What am I? Or is it just me?

Speaker 3 (52:11):
So there's parts of it that I can see as numbing.
There's parts of it that are really disturbing, and there's
parts of it that are, oh, okay, this makes sense.
This is very sweet and lovely. So just like the Bible,
it has stories of horror, it has messages of absolute insanity,
and then it has moments where you're like, oh.

Speaker 2 (52:28):
This is this is a good poetry. Kind of thing.

Speaker 3 (52:30):
Yeah, this is good. This is a lovely story or
a fairy tale, or this is a beautiful message. So
it has a little bit of everything. So, if not
from the entertainment standpoint, maybe from the trying to understand upset.

Speaker 4 (52:41):
Do your due diligence and know what's in the Koran, Okay,
and you don't have to.

Speaker 3 (52:45):
But what I would to answer your question, I think
it's really important for people who want to show solidarity,
who want to stand by, especially diversity. I know that's
a word many are allergic to right now, But if
you really want to not be a xenophobe and you
want to be kind to other people, accept them from
who they are as human beings, and treat people as

(53:07):
they are, I'll answer your question by kind of giving
you the example of a question I get asked often.
How do I then answer when people are bringing up
Islam and I don't feel like as a Westerner I
can say, but Islam is bad because of all these things. No,
that's not what we need to do. What you need
to do is address the human rights violations and not
just an Islam in any part of the world. So

(53:29):
if you're going to say listen, I understand you are
talking about religion, but I really have a question around
women and the treatment of women, the oppression of women.
Talk about the human experience, and then that'll translate into
maybe this ideology needs to be addressed or changed or
maybe questioned. If you're not comfortable to go straight to
the source and question the source, start with the violations

(53:50):
of the source, and then eventually you'll get to the source.

Speaker 4 (53:53):
Our shared humanity. That's right, Jasmin, You're amazing. Thanks for
talking to me.

Speaker 3 (53:57):
It's an honor to be on your show. Set. Thank you.

Speaker 1 (54:00):
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