August 15, 2025 • 30 mins
For some reason, Piers Morgan Uncensored asked me to debate the authenticity of the Shroud of Turin. I'm not remotely qualified, so of course, I said yes.
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THE FULL 45-MINUTE INTERVIEW
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Episode Transcript
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I was just asked to be part of a debate
about the shroud of touridden on Piers Morgan Uncensored. Now
I can see you rolling your eyes because I did
the same thing Piers Morgan, really Peer's Morgan. I wrote
a substack about this which kind of addressed it all
(01:17):
much more formally, but I wanted to freestyle it here
on the show and talk about it and maybe play
some sound bites so you can hear what it was
all about. But imagine me. I get up in the
morning and I opened my email and it's a producer
with Peers Morgan uncensored, reaching out and saying, we would
like an atheist's perspective on the Shroud of Turin. Now
(01:39):
there's this resurgence of the story in the news after
a Brazilian digital graphics expert analyze the shroud and he
says that it was made by draping the cloth over
a low relief statue. So now the argument is it
wasn't even a human body, let alone Jesus Christ was
(02:00):
under the Shroud of Turin. It was a statue and
this was created as medieval era art. And so now
all the shroud apologists jump back up and they're freaking outside.
Of course the Bible, the Bible, you know, those secular
scientists have got it all wrong again. And so every
(02:21):
few years the Shroud of Turin pops up in the news.
I think people just get bored. It's like the discovery
of Noah's art. Every few years, somebody discovers some boat
shaped piece of dirt or a rock or something. Oh, look,
there's some wood somewhere in the Middle East. I wonder
if it was the Arc, and everybody loses their minds.
(02:44):
So what do I do with this invitation? Am I
an expert on radiometric dating. Do I know anything about
first century artifacts or the medieval era or any of that.
Why do I have anything to offer? I'm not qualified,
So of course I agreed to go on the show.
(03:08):
I'm like, well, I'm not a scientist, I'm not a historian.
When do we start. It's actually it was the second
debate request I got in my email this week. The
first one was from none other than Kent Hoven. Kent Hoven,
(03:28):
the Young Earth creationist apologist. Doctor Dino is what he
so often has called himself because he supposedly is an
expert on the dinosaurs, and he has proof as to
why Adam and Eve hung out with dinosaurs. You know,
humans walk the earth at the same time. And this
guy used to go out from church to church and
Christian school to Christian school, influencing children. That's terrifying. Then
(03:52):
he's convicted of fraud, goes to prison, and after that,
I think recordings came out of him domestically abusing his wife.
I mean, the guys in nightmares. So even Christian apologetic
circles want nothing to do with kent Hoven. They don't
want They didn't even return his calls. He is not
(04:13):
on the fringes of Christian apologetics. He's out in the void, right,
He's in the phantom zone, spinning out in the cosmos.
Nobody wants to talk to Kent Hoven, and yet he
wants to get noticed, and so his tactic recently has
been to reach out and tap atheist activist on the
shoulder and try to bait them into another argument about
(04:36):
Young Earth creationism so that he can get noticed, so
that no one will forget his name. I mention it
here only because it amuses me. Okay, that's not like
he's going to get any extra support from this audience.
Ken Hoven is a punchline in both non religious and
religious circles. I get an email ken Hooven depreciates your
(04:59):
respect approach to discourse and is interested in having a
debate about biblical creation. And I stared at the email
and I hit reply, and I said, thanks for the offer,
but I would rather put out a campfire with my
face yours in christ Seth Andrews. And I sent it
(05:33):
and I was so I amused myself so much that
I screenshot at it and I put it on Facebook
and it's got like a squillion likes It's awesome. It's
just awesome. Anyway. The next email comes in from the
producer appears Morgan uncensored. They want an atheist perspective on
the Shroud of Turin and this latest news, I would
be joining two other academics. The first guy is a
(05:57):
first century c E. Shroud I did belong to Jesus.
The proof is overwhelming.
Speaker 3 (06:03):
Guy.
Speaker 4 (06:03):
His name is doctor Jeremiah Johnson. Now, of course, whenever
I hear Jeremiah Johnson, I think about the old Robert
Redford movie. It's one of my favorite movies. Jeremia Johnson.
You ever see it. It's a great miss Sidney Pollock
film from like forty years ago. Okay, anyway. And then
there was another academic, also a Christian, pretty reasonable guy. Actually,
(06:27):
I wouldn't mind having him on my show. Let me
think about that. But he is part of the Shroud
of Turin research project. His name is doctor Joseph Acetta,
who was able to speak scientifically about the dating of
the shroud to the medieval era, like thirteenth fourteenth century.
So these were two believers who were going to go
back and forth for about twenty minutes while I waited
(06:50):
in the wings in the digital green room for my
chance to sit at the table with these guys. And
so I'm back here and I'm telling you this guy,
this doctor Jeremiah Johnson, is smooth. Isn't the word slick?
(07:10):
Is the word I said in my substack article. I
said you could mix up penns oil, vasoline and banana
peals and the result would still be less slippery than
doctor Jeremiah Johnson. This guy was a gsh gallop Olympian.
He was blowing through. He's like and so and so
is a PhD. And I've done this and no one's
(07:31):
visited the Shroud Museum more than I have. And I'm
examined the thing and it's on display and we've done
our testing and PhD so and so who's a friend
of mine. And I've done this and the academics who
posted in Nature magazine and the encyclopedia. Is the wealth
of knowledge that we have. Blah blah blah blah blah
is literally like a He did not draw breath. I'm
convinced that he practiced being able to exhale four five
(07:53):
straight minutes without having to draw any air into his lungs.
That's how. And he was like super salesy. He's like,
and you know, peers whenever I've been out there, I'm
so excited to have these conversations about the Shred because
you know, I was a skeptic too back in the day,
and I remember when I'm David L L and I
(08:14):
it just gave me a bad taste in my mouth.
He was really talking at the audience instead of to them.
I can think of a bunch of people in my
zone who might be impressed. And obviously, if you've got
somebody who looks that well informed and that well prepared
and they are degree mongering to beat the band PhD, PhD, PhD, author, historian, archaeologist, archivist,
(08:37):
blah blah blah. I mean, I can see how this
would overwhelm someone who is not an expert, and they
would be like, Wow, they don't really know their stuff.
I mean, if we were to put this guy on
Joe Rogan, Joe would probably literally declare him God, drop
to his knees and begin to say prayers and worship
the man. Okay, so I get it. But he was
(08:58):
also so you Cai when he was talking to Piers
Morgan about you know, you know what, let me just
play a segment. Let me play a little segment. Stick
with me. Listen to what I listened to while I
was waiting in the wings.
Speaker 3 (09:14):
Piers, hold my ice cold coke zero while I answer
these will you. I love this because this is my
area of specialty. First, I want to show you something, Piers.
I've never shown this on any interview I've done. I
just got this from the Land of Israel. You just
pointed out the fascinating correspondence of the wound marks in
the man of the shroud I'm holding in my hand, Peers,
(09:36):
this is not a replica, Peers, and doctor Esseta, this
is an actual Roman crucifixion spike that was from the
Syrian province. I do a lot of work in archaeology, Peers.
I've been in more first century tombs than any guest
you've ever interviewed. And this is six inches long. It's
an iron spike.
Speaker 4 (09:53):
Oh my goodness. He has visited so many tombs and
he's holding a generic crucifixion that is potentially two thousand
years old. Nobody signed it, it's not marked in any way.
It's a spike, but it's very impressive.
Speaker 3 (10:10):
We have Type A B blood human blood. And there's
some very fascinating work from an immunologist. So I just
spoke with last week at this conference, Kelly Curse. It's
human blood, it's type aby blood, it's Semitic blood. The
arms are so long, and it does look like they're
very long, Pierce, because when we believe when Jesus falls
(10:30):
to the ground, do you remember Peers from your gospel reading,
that Jesus collapses under the weight of the cross. He
can't even get to Calvary. Simon of Cyreni is tasked
to carry the crossbeam. And do you know why. We
believe that Jesus had lost one third of his blood
volume during the scourging. Let that set in for a minute,
he was dying of dehydration, high levels of ferretine creatinin
(10:52):
based on the blood samples that we have on the shroud,
he would eventually die of massive a massive heart attack
on the cross. And his arms, though are so strangely
long on the cross is because his shoulders were separated
during the crucifixion, and that's what makes the arms look
so long.
Speaker 4 (11:10):
So the person crucified exhibited the symptoms of anyone who
would be crucified. Massive blood loss, probable heart failure, or
at least maybe they died of shock and we've got
dislocated shoulders. Obviously, when you're hanging by nails, that doesn't
seem unreasonable, regardless of who you are, if you're hanging
(11:33):
on a cross. But wait a minute, it's time for
some magic.
Speaker 3 (11:37):
The thing that's fascinating me, if i'm may Pierce, is
the amount of energy. This is what I want to
get to because this is the latest science and truly
breaking news on this program when you I just interviewed
Paula de Lazero and what's cool about doctor Assetta and
the original Stirp team peers that I respect about these
men and women. Doctor Assetta was one of twenty six
scholar scientists who went to turn Italy to skeet to
(11:59):
study this. They're not pastors with a theological as to grind.
They were not privileging this, even though doctors said is
a believer. They were applying the scientific method. Ray Rogers,
who died a great defender of the shroud, famously said,
give me fifteen minutes in the scientific record, and I'm
going to prove this is a complete forgery. He wasn't
saying that a few minutes later after studying it, which
(12:20):
is really fascinating to think about when I look at
the power though, Paulo de Lazre is doing some amazing
work out of a neo laboratories. He is a physicist
who works with the lasers, and this is something that's
gone viral when we've shared it. He has postulated the
amount of energy it would take to leave to make
a chemical change in the flax in the linen fibrils.
(12:43):
Because remember the image, Piers, it doesn't absorb like the
blood does. The blood fully absorbs into the shroud. The
image is just two microns Peers. If you took a razor,
you could literally shave off the image on the shroud.
It's that thin. It's almost unbelievably thin. And this is
whatients cannot replicate.
Speaker 4 (13:02):
See what I'm talking about, right, I mean, I think
it's off putting. He is a Jeremiah Johnson's a big wig.
He was at least one of the pastors at Preston
Wood Baptist Church in Texas. Prest and Wood is a
major cher It's a city of the church. I think
Preston Wood runs twenty thousand members. It's on real and
(13:27):
you know, he also has his own organization called the
Christian Thinkers Society, teaching pastors and Christians how to become
thinkers and thinkers how to become Christians. That's what it says.
And the first video you see on Johnson's website is
his discussion about the Shroud of Turin with a very
(13:49):
constipated looking Tucker Carlson. I did a whole show. I'm
Tucker Carlson. This guy's a nightmare. He's a Cretan, he's
a big he's a sexist, he's a jerk, he's an opportunist,
he's a grifters, he's just garbage. And so there's Tucker,
and Tucker's got that mmm interesting. You know, he's got
(14:12):
that look on his face like, Wow, here we are
exploring biblical truth. Thank you so much, doctor Jeremiah Johnson.
That's on the homepage. On that same side, he's pitching
his latest book called Body of Proof, a study on
the Resurrection of Jesus. And he's got several Jesus books.
This guy loves him from Jesus. He's got the Unanswered
Bible Study Kit, the Jesus Discoveries, and so much more. Okay,
(14:38):
I've got audio from the other guest, and then I
will play my responses for you and I'll get to
that next hang on. Seth Andrews and Peers Morgan. These
are two names I never thought I would hear in
the same sentence. So is doctor Jerry Amaia. Johnson's going
(15:01):
through his spiel, at least, throwing the word science and
scientific out almost like it's a tick. The science, the science,
the science says scientific science, science, science science. Doctor Joseph
Assetta is over there, and he said quite a bit,
but he he summed it up with this.
Speaker 2 (15:17):
The four pillars of authenticity from the rigorous scientific perspective
are One, its age, it has to be two thousand
years ago. Two we have to show that the cloth
ensconced the body of Jesus Christ. Three there has to
be some sort of chain of custody that shows that
where was it for the last two thousand years ago?
(15:38):
And four there's no mention of this. There's a glaring
absence in the Gospels of this image. And you know,
you could rationalize all those, but those are hardcore scientific
factors that have to be established before you claim rigorously
that this is the authentic burial cloth of Christ.
Speaker 4 (15:58):
Now my take on this is this, and it's really
one of the reasons that I wanted to have this discussion.
I had a few reasons. First of all, it's a
pretty big signal boost, right, I'm not speaking to the choir.
I want to go out and actually engage with the
rest of the world, even if it means Piers Morgan.
And I've told people this, if Fox News asked me
(16:21):
in the right context on a subject I could speak to,
if they ask me to pull up Pete Budajet and
sit in the chair and offer my opinion, position, etc.
I would probably do it. I wouldn't be nearly as
good as Pete Boudajet. That guy's a damn superhero. But
(16:43):
I mean if it was in my wheelhouse, it's what
I do every day. And if I was able to
literally walk into the lions Den and challenge those people
on their own turf, I wouldn't be opposed to it.
Some people said, if Joe Rogan ever had you on,
would you you know? And I can't stand Joe Rogan
what I go on in this show. In the right context,
I would if I was speaking to something that I was,
(17:07):
if not an authority on at least extremely well versed
on And if I was able to say exactly what
I want, and one of the things I would say is,
what the fuck is wrong with you, Joe Rogan? Why
are you platforming so much disinformation, pseudoscience, conspiracy theories, grift
(17:28):
and generally awful people. He might he might lump me
in with them, he might turn on me. But I
mean someone's got to say it. And what are you doing?
You have a responsibility. You're not just having conversations. You
are feeding the beast, and you know, to have the
Joe Roganites sitting out there listening to this, they might
(17:49):
turn on me. Actually they would, But it doesn't mean
the things don't need to be said. And if I
say them here, that's fine, But to say them there
on his own channel, I would I do it. I
would do it, okay. And so if Piers Morgan wants
me to show up and talk to an apologist, I'll
do it. And I wanted to talk about not the
(18:11):
shroud itself as much as what about the Jesus story
to begin with, because both of these Christians, the first
century Shroud of Jesus Guy and the medieval shroud was
faked guy or whatever. They're both acting and operating like
Jesus was a real dude, Jesus Christ, the god man, Jesus.
(18:33):
That's their premise. They're actually building on that foundation. So
then the conversation about the shroud is, well, do you
think the shroud belonged to Jesus? Did it cover Jesus?
Or was Jesus covered with something else that will never
be discovered? And this was art an artifact, it was
I don't know, the image of another crucified and buried person,
(18:54):
or it's just a damn fake. The whole conversation assumes
Jesus Christ sitting over here in the green room going
ask the question. So that's what I'm going to do.
I'm going to show up and I'm going to say, hey,
maybe we should be talking about whether or not the
dude in question was actually the dude in question. You know,
(19:18):
if we found a hammer, would we start discussing whether
or not it belonged to thor Is that where this
discussion begins, or do we have to start with, hey,
was there a literal thor? So let me play you
this segment. Let's see it runs just a few minutes.
I mean, he, to his credit Peers did not interrupt
(19:40):
me after he tragically introduced me as the thinking atheist,
and I had to correct him. I'm not a great thinker.
I'm not the thinking atheist. It's an icon. I mean,
I had to start with that because, hey, somebody do
some research before you invite me on. It's on the
damn website. It's the first line in the podcast intro.
(20:02):
I am not thinking. I'm sorry, Sorry, this irritates me. Okay,
so he asked me, what are your thoughts on the shroud?
Here's what I said. Do you think it's real?
Speaker 3 (20:10):
Do you think it's fake?
Speaker 4 (20:11):
Do you think the whole thing is just a pay asta?
What do you feel? What I see mostly around the
shroud is a tremendous desire to believe, to connect dots,
and it's totally understandable. You know, people who lean into
the Jesus story, but you know whether or not it
dates to the time of Christ or to the medieval era.
(20:32):
And I tend not to discount the Carbon fourteen date.
I think apologists are quick to brush it aside, and
then they throw out a lot of fancy letters at
the end. But I don't think that we have seen
a debunking of the carbon fourteen dating of the fabric,
but even if it did date back to that era,
I mean, we're talking about a time where the Romans
(20:52):
crucified hundreds of thousands of people, and so now we're
connecting a dot and saying this looks like a crown
of thorns, and so therefore it is the Christ, and
we root that in the Bible itself, and the Christ
account in the Bible, which is hugely problematic. I heard
references to Josephus. I mean the Antiquities was what sixty
(21:16):
seventy years after the alleged death and resurrection of Jesus Christ.
Josephus was not an eye witness, and the only reference
to Christ was not about the crucifixion, the resurrection, certainly
not the shroud of Turin the Gospels, I mean, they're
not reliable because I think the earliest Gospel being Mark
was sixty nine seventy something ce, long decades after these
(21:40):
events were supposed to have happened. The authorship of all
four Gospels is not known. Nobody has pinned them down,
nobody can authenticate them. And beyond that, the Bible is
the same book that makes all kinds of claims we
might reject in another context, whether it's giant nine hundred
year old people, donkeys that spoke Hebrew, and a savior
(22:03):
baby that was born via ghost sex if you will,
to a virgin, so that the offspring could grow up
and sacrifice himself blood sacrifice to rescue us from the
very torture chamber that that God created.
Speaker 3 (22:20):
So all of this.
Speaker 4 (22:21):
About the shroud, it's interesting, I find you know, it's
the God who is not the author of confusion, though
I would think would have parted the curtain of the
sky and he would have said to all of his children,
yes it's me, or no it's not. I don't think
that's unreasonable. Jeremiah Johnson, still with that car salesman look
(22:42):
on his face, just just as slick and smooth as
you can be, decides he's going to jump in and respond,
here we go.
Speaker 3 (22:51):
Jesus Christ. The historical record is so clear that in
the eighty nine chapters of the Gospel they all point
so that Jesus really lived, he died, and even the
greatest step alive of that time had experiences of seeing
Jesus alive after he was dead. You can look at
my book Body of Proof, the Seven Best Reasons to
Believe in the bodily Resurrection of Jesus, and you can
see that I never mentioned the shroud of turn. Isn't
(23:13):
that fascinating, Pierce? I don't believe the shroud is authentic
because I want it to be. And as followers of Jesus,
we don't even need the shroud to be authentic. Is
our best evidence of the resurrection? We have so many
other lines about this, So what's fascinating, Well, yeah, exactly,
it's not an article of faith. And what's fascinating to
me is when you look at the historical records, they
stand on their own. Even atheist scholars like Garrett Ludemann
(23:36):
said in others say, I cannot argue with the fact
that the earliest followers of Jesus were first hostile to
the Christian message. They had experiences of seeing Jesus alive
after he had been dead. And they say, now, what
kind of experiences those were. We can't explain, but we
know those experiences not only change the lives of the followers,
but also change the world forever. And again, there's such
(23:58):
great evidence for the authenticity of the Gospels. We know
that Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John wrote the Gospels. We
know that Paul writes twenty years before the Gospels that
incredible passage that no serious historian our scholar calls into
question in one Corinthians fifteen, saying, this is the gospel
that Christ died for our sins. According to the scripture,
he was buried, and he rose again on the third day,
(24:20):
according to the scriptures. A quick note about Josephus. There's
some phenomenal work being done published by Oxford University Press T. S. Schmidt.
Josephus absolutely knew and had first hand acquaintance with those
who attended the trial of Jesus. So, friends, again, you
have your choice. You've got to think for yourself. This
is what I do at Christian thinker Society. You've got
to get beyond the sound bites. You've got to get
(24:40):
to the substance. Read these things for yourself and you'll
be amazed. Christianity doesn't need to be defended. It stands
up for itself.
Speaker 4 (24:47):
If I may, well that fascinating debate, yeah, very quickly. Yeah, well,
I'm not sure we can quote the Bible to prove
the Bible Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John are written in
the third person, and we're not written by a Matthew Mark,
Luk or John Mark itself was actually written by two,
possibly three authors. And even if Josephus had referenced the
(25:11):
Christ in the year one hundred CE, it wasn't a
direct reference. We're still in the arena of hearsay. This
is not evidence.
Speaker 2 (25:21):
You guys are in deep theological terror leasure.
Speaker 3 (25:24):
Now.
Speaker 4 (25:25):
I go back and forth on whether or not I
should have derailed in this way. I mean, they wanted
to talk about the shroud, right, and I was more
interested in Biblical authenticity and sourcing and hearsay and all that.
I mean, actually getting back to the Christ's story itself.
I don't know if it was in the medieval time.
(25:45):
I believe it is. I think the majority of the
evidence that is not being posited by Bible apologists. I mean,
those people front loaded their discussions with, hey, we believe
that Jesus Christ existed. We're going to lean heavily to
anything that looks like it really looks kind of like
white Jesus. But whatever whatever, All right, and then the
(26:07):
unexplainable atomic light that burned the image into the fabric.
You know, they didn't have the technology. No one knows
how it was done. It must be Jesus. And of
course you and I are saying the same thing. Okay, fine,
it looks like a guy. Let's say it was a man.
Did he sign his work? Did Jesus take a sharpie
(26:28):
and say that's me? He literally tagged it so everybody
would know he did not? Why the hell are we
arguing about the shroud all this time later? It's a
piece of cloth that's got some stuff burned or painted
into the fibers, and it's the image of a guy.
(26:48):
We ooh uh, you know, I said in my blog
it's the really the equivalent of the Weeping Lady of
Fatima's statue. You know, people see any thing that looks
I don't know, they just so desperately want to believe
it's the Jesus fish stick. Oh look, it's the imprint
of the Christ on my fish stick. Thank you Jesus.
(27:11):
Let us pilgrimage. Let us load up the church bus
and we'll go thousands of miles to a witness. And
the fish stick has been taken and it has been
preserved in a kind of epoxy so that it will
not rot. And now it's been framed and placed on
a pedestal, and it's under you know, it's behind bulletproof glass,
(27:31):
and it's anchored to the ground so it can't be stolen.
And for only twenty nine to ninety nine you two
can come into the fish Stick Jesus Museum. I mean,
I'm obviously being facetious there, but you know what I'm
talking about. This is Jesus tourism as far as I'm concerned, right,
it's Jesus tourism. Look at the Holy Land. Don't tell
(27:53):
me Jerusalem is not a tourist mecca for Christians who
genuinely think they are walking in the literal footsteps of God.
And they're bringing artifacts or it's artifacts, it's you know,
just stuff. They're bringing stuff back. This could have been
the place where Jesus carved a table. This could have
(28:15):
been where Jesus walked as he brought the Gospel to humanity.
These could have been the seas he sailed as the
nets were cast off and the fish were brought him.
This might be the place where he gave the Sermon
on the mounts. Yeah, you know what I'm saying could
have been might have been. We think it probably was.
(28:37):
The possibility is this is these are not truth claims.
Fucking tourism. Sorry, I get keyed up. I tried not to.
I didn't swear on the Piers Morgan Show, but I
wanted to, and that guy was going off and I
literally wanted to reach through and just shake him and go.
First of all, take a breath. Secondly, well, the Gospels
(28:58):
say is not an argument as not an argument? That's
my rant. Wasn't a mistake to do the show that
I perform. Okay, I'm not fishing for compliments, but you
know I went toe to toe with a shroud of
during Apologist. I think it came off. I think I
(29:19):
represented you and us. Okay, And you can go back
and watch it. The first twenty minutes are the two academics,
and then I bring up the rear as I should, right,
I brought up the rear the bottom, and I don't know.
You can tell me what you think in the comments section.
I'll see you back here in just a few days
(29:41):
for our official podcast release. See you then.
Speaker 1 (29:46):
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Speaker 2 (00:10):
The population of atheists this country is going through the.
Speaker 1 (00:13):
Rule, rejecting faith, pursuing knowledge, challenging the sacred. If I
tell the truth, it's because I tell the truth, not because.
Speaker 3 (00:22):
I put my hand on a book and made a wish.
Speaker 1 (00:25):
And working together for a more rational world.
Speaker 2 (00:29):
Take the risk of thinking.
Speaker 4 (00:30):
Feel so much more happiness. Truth Fusian wisdom will come
to you that way.
Speaker 1 (00:35):
Assume nothing, question everything, and start thinking. This is the
Thinking Atheist podcast hosted by Seth Andrews.
Speaker 4 (00:56):
I was just asked to be part of a debate
about the shroud of touridden on Piers Morgan Uncensored. Now
I can see you rolling your eyes because I did
the same thing Piers Morgan, really Peer's Morgan. I wrote
a substack about this which kind of addressed it all
(01:17):
much more formally, but I wanted to freestyle it here
on the show and talk about it and maybe play
some sound bites so you can hear what it was
all about. But imagine me. I get up in the
morning and I opened my email and it's a producer
with Peers Morgan uncensored, reaching out and saying, we would
like an atheist's perspective on the Shroud of Turin. Now
(01:39):
there's this resurgence of the story in the news after
a Brazilian digital graphics expert analyze the shroud and he
says that it was made by draping the cloth over
a low relief statue. So now the argument is it
wasn't even a human body, let alone Jesus Christ was
(02:00):
under the Shroud of Turin. It was a statue and
this was created as medieval era art. And so now
all the shroud apologists jump back up and they're freaking outside.
Of course the Bible, the Bible, you know, those secular
scientists have got it all wrong again. And so every
(02:21):
few years the Shroud of Turin pops up in the news.
I think people just get bored. It's like the discovery
of Noah's art. Every few years, somebody discovers some boat
shaped piece of dirt or a rock or something. Oh, look,
there's some wood somewhere in the Middle East. I wonder
if it was the Arc, and everybody loses their minds.
(02:44):
So what do I do with this invitation? Am I
an expert on radiometric dating. Do I know anything about
first century artifacts or the medieval era or any of that.
Why do I have anything to offer? I'm not qualified,
So of course I agreed to go on the show.
(03:08):
I'm like, well, I'm not a scientist, I'm not a historian.
When do we start. It's actually it was the second
debate request I got in my email this week. The
first one was from none other than Kent Hoven. Kent Hoven,
(03:28):
the Young Earth creationist apologist. Doctor Dino is what he
so often has called himself because he supposedly is an
expert on the dinosaurs, and he has proof as to
why Adam and Eve hung out with dinosaurs. You know,
humans walk the earth at the same time. And this
guy used to go out from church to church and
Christian school to Christian school, influencing children. That's terrifying. Then
(03:52):
he's convicted of fraud, goes to prison, and after that,
I think recordings came out of him domestically abusing his wife.
I mean, the guys in nightmares. So even Christian apologetic
circles want nothing to do with kent Hoven. They don't
want They didn't even return his calls. He is not
(04:13):
on the fringes of Christian apologetics. He's out in the void, right,
He's in the phantom zone, spinning out in the cosmos.
Nobody wants to talk to Kent Hoven, and yet he
wants to get noticed, and so his tactic recently has
been to reach out and tap atheist activist on the
shoulder and try to bait them into another argument about
(04:36):
Young Earth creationism so that he can get noticed, so
that no one will forget his name. I mention it
here only because it amuses me. Okay, that's not like
he's going to get any extra support from this audience.
Ken Hoven is a punchline in both non religious and
religious circles. I get an email ken Hooven depreciates your
(04:59):
respect approach to discourse and is interested in having a
debate about biblical creation. And I stared at the email
and I hit reply, and I said, thanks for the offer,
but I would rather put out a campfire with my
face yours in christ Seth Andrews. And I sent it
(05:33):
and I was so I amused myself so much that
I screenshot at it and I put it on Facebook
and it's got like a squillion likes It's awesome. It's
just awesome. Anyway. The next email comes in from the
producer appears Morgan uncensored. They want an atheist perspective on
the Shroud of Turin and this latest news, I would
be joining two other academics. The first guy is a
(05:57):
first century c E. Shroud I did belong to Jesus.
The proof is overwhelming.
Speaker 3 (06:03):
Guy.
Speaker 4 (06:03):
His name is doctor Jeremiah Johnson. Now, of course, whenever
I hear Jeremiah Johnson, I think about the old Robert
Redford movie. It's one of my favorite movies. Jeremia Johnson.
You ever see it. It's a great miss Sidney Pollock
film from like forty years ago. Okay, anyway. And then
there was another academic, also a Christian, pretty reasonable guy. Actually,
(06:27):
I wouldn't mind having him on my show. Let me
think about that. But he is part of the Shroud
of Turin research project. His name is doctor Joseph Acetta,
who was able to speak scientifically about the dating of
the shroud to the medieval era, like thirteenth fourteenth century.
So these were two believers who were going to go
back and forth for about twenty minutes while I waited
(06:50):
in the wings in the digital green room for my
chance to sit at the table with these guys. And
so I'm back here and I'm telling you this guy,
this doctor Jeremiah Johnson, is smooth. Isn't the word slick?
(07:10):
Is the word I said in my substack article. I
said you could mix up penns oil, vasoline and banana
peals and the result would still be less slippery than
doctor Jeremiah Johnson. This guy was a gsh gallop Olympian.
He was blowing through. He's like and so and so
is a PhD. And I've done this and no one's
(07:31):
visited the Shroud Museum more than I have. And I'm
examined the thing and it's on display and we've done
our testing and PhD so and so who's a friend
of mine. And I've done this and the academics who
posted in Nature magazine and the encyclopedia. Is the wealth
of knowledge that we have. Blah blah blah blah blah
is literally like a He did not draw breath. I'm
convinced that he practiced being able to exhale four five
(07:53):
straight minutes without having to draw any air into his lungs.
That's how. And he was like super salesy. He's like,
and you know, peers whenever I've been out there, I'm
so excited to have these conversations about the Shred because
you know, I was a skeptic too back in the day,
and I remember when I'm David L L and I
(08:14):
it just gave me a bad taste in my mouth.
He was really talking at the audience instead of to them.
I can think of a bunch of people in my
zone who might be impressed. And obviously, if you've got
somebody who looks that well informed and that well prepared
and they are degree mongering to beat the band PhD, PhD, PhD, author, historian, archaeologist, archivist,
(08:37):
blah blah blah. I mean, I can see how this
would overwhelm someone who is not an expert, and they
would be like, Wow, they don't really know their stuff.
I mean, if we were to put this guy on
Joe Rogan, Joe would probably literally declare him God, drop
to his knees and begin to say prayers and worship
the man. Okay, so I get it. But he was
(08:58):
also so you Cai when he was talking to Piers
Morgan about you know, you know what, let me just
play a segment. Let me play a little segment. Stick
with me. Listen to what I listened to while I
was waiting in the wings.
Speaker 3 (09:14):
Piers, hold my ice cold coke zero while I answer
these will you. I love this because this is my
area of specialty. First, I want to show you something, Piers.
I've never shown this on any interview I've done. I
just got this from the Land of Israel. You just
pointed out the fascinating correspondence of the wound marks in
the man of the shroud I'm holding in my hand, Peers,
(09:36):
this is not a replica, Peers, and doctor Esseta, this
is an actual Roman crucifixion spike that was from the
Syrian province. I do a lot of work in archaeology, Peers.
I've been in more first century tombs than any guest
you've ever interviewed. And this is six inches long. It's
an iron spike.
Speaker 4 (09:53):
Oh my goodness. He has visited so many tombs and
he's holding a generic crucifixion that is potentially two thousand
years old. Nobody signed it, it's not marked in any way.
It's a spike, but it's very impressive.
Speaker 3 (10:10):
We have Type A B blood human blood. And there's
some very fascinating work from an immunologist. So I just
spoke with last week at this conference, Kelly Curse. It's
human blood, it's type aby blood, it's Semitic blood. The
arms are so long, and it does look like they're
very long, Pierce, because when we believe when Jesus falls
(10:30):
to the ground, do you remember Peers from your gospel reading,
that Jesus collapses under the weight of the cross. He
can't even get to Calvary. Simon of Cyreni is tasked
to carry the crossbeam. And do you know why. We
believe that Jesus had lost one third of his blood
volume during the scourging. Let that set in for a minute,
he was dying of dehydration, high levels of ferretine creatinin
(10:52):
based on the blood samples that we have on the shroud,
he would eventually die of massive a massive heart attack
on the cross. And his arms, though are so strangely
long on the cross is because his shoulders were separated
during the crucifixion, and that's what makes the arms look
so long.
Speaker 4 (11:10):
So the person crucified exhibited the symptoms of anyone who
would be crucified. Massive blood loss, probable heart failure, or
at least maybe they died of shock and we've got
dislocated shoulders. Obviously, when you're hanging by nails, that doesn't
seem unreasonable, regardless of who you are, if you're hanging
(11:33):
on a cross. But wait a minute, it's time for
some magic.
Speaker 3 (11:37):
The thing that's fascinating me, if i'm may Pierce, is
the amount of energy. This is what I want to
get to because this is the latest science and truly
breaking news on this program when you I just interviewed
Paula de Lazero and what's cool about doctor Assetta and
the original Stirp team peers that I respect about these
men and women. Doctor Assetta was one of twenty six
scholar scientists who went to turn Italy to skeet to
(11:59):
study this. They're not pastors with a theological as to grind.
They were not privileging this, even though doctors said is
a believer. They were applying the scientific method. Ray Rogers,
who died a great defender of the shroud, famously said,
give me fifteen minutes in the scientific record, and I'm
going to prove this is a complete forgery. He wasn't
saying that a few minutes later after studying it, which
(12:20):
is really fascinating to think about when I look at
the power though, Paulo de Lazre is doing some amazing
work out of a neo laboratories. He is a physicist
who works with the lasers, and this is something that's
gone viral when we've shared it. He has postulated the
amount of energy it would take to leave to make
a chemical change in the flax in the linen fibrils.
(12:43):
Because remember the image, Piers, it doesn't absorb like the
blood does. The blood fully absorbs into the shroud. The
image is just two microns Peers. If you took a razor,
you could literally shave off the image on the shroud.
It's that thin. It's almost unbelievably thin. And this is
whatients cannot replicate.
Speaker 4 (13:02):
See what I'm talking about, right, I mean, I think
it's off putting. He is a Jeremiah Johnson's a big wig.
He was at least one of the pastors at Preston
Wood Baptist Church in Texas. Prest and Wood is a
major cher It's a city of the church. I think
Preston Wood runs twenty thousand members. It's on real and
(13:27):
you know, he also has his own organization called the
Christian Thinkers Society, teaching pastors and Christians how to become
thinkers and thinkers how to become Christians. That's what it says.
And the first video you see on Johnson's website is
his discussion about the Shroud of Turin with a very
(13:49):
constipated looking Tucker Carlson. I did a whole show. I'm
Tucker Carlson. This guy's a nightmare. He's a Cretan, he's
a big he's a sexist, he's a jerk, he's an opportunist,
he's a grifters, he's just garbage. And so there's Tucker,
and Tucker's got that mmm interesting. You know, he's got
(14:12):
that look on his face like, Wow, here we are
exploring biblical truth. Thank you so much, doctor Jeremiah Johnson.
That's on the homepage. On that same side, he's pitching
his latest book called Body of Proof, a study on
the Resurrection of Jesus. And he's got several Jesus books.
This guy loves him from Jesus. He's got the Unanswered
Bible Study Kit, the Jesus Discoveries, and so much more. Okay,
(14:38):
I've got audio from the other guest, and then I
will play my responses for you and I'll get to
that next hang on. Seth Andrews and Peers Morgan. These
are two names I never thought I would hear in
the same sentence. So is doctor Jerry Amaia. Johnson's going
(15:01):
through his spiel, at least, throwing the word science and
scientific out almost like it's a tick. The science, the science,
the science says scientific science, science, science science. Doctor Joseph
Assetta is over there, and he said quite a bit,
but he he summed it up with this.
Speaker 2 (15:17):
The four pillars of authenticity from the rigorous scientific perspective
are One, its age, it has to be two thousand
years ago. Two we have to show that the cloth
ensconced the body of Jesus Christ. Three there has to
be some sort of chain of custody that shows that
where was it for the last two thousand years ago?
(15:38):
And four there's no mention of this. There's a glaring
absence in the Gospels of this image. And you know,
you could rationalize all those, but those are hardcore scientific
factors that have to be established before you claim rigorously
that this is the authentic burial cloth of Christ.
Speaker 4 (15:58):
Now my take on this is this, and it's really
one of the reasons that I wanted to have this discussion.
I had a few reasons. First of all, it's a
pretty big signal boost, right, I'm not speaking to the choir.
I want to go out and actually engage with the
rest of the world, even if it means Piers Morgan.
And I've told people this, if Fox News asked me
(16:21):
in the right context on a subject I could speak to,
if they ask me to pull up Pete Budajet and
sit in the chair and offer my opinion, position, etc.
I would probably do it. I wouldn't be nearly as
good as Pete Boudajet. That guy's a damn superhero. But
(16:43):
I mean if it was in my wheelhouse, it's what
I do every day. And if I was able to
literally walk into the lions Den and challenge those people
on their own turf, I wouldn't be opposed to it.
Some people said, if Joe Rogan ever had you on,
would you you know? And I can't stand Joe Rogan
what I go on in this show. In the right context,
I would if I was speaking to something that I was,
(17:07):
if not an authority on at least extremely well versed
on And if I was able to say exactly what
I want, and one of the things I would say is,
what the fuck is wrong with you, Joe Rogan? Why
are you platforming so much disinformation, pseudoscience, conspiracy theories, grift
(17:28):
and generally awful people. He might he might lump me
in with them, he might turn on me. But I
mean someone's got to say it. And what are you doing?
You have a responsibility. You're not just having conversations. You
are feeding the beast, and you know, to have the
Joe Roganites sitting out there listening to this, they might
(17:49):
turn on me. Actually they would, But it doesn't mean
the things don't need to be said. And if I
say them here, that's fine, But to say them there
on his own channel, I would I do it. I
would do it, okay. And so if Piers Morgan wants
me to show up and talk to an apologist, I'll
do it. And I wanted to talk about not the
(18:11):
shroud itself as much as what about the Jesus story
to begin with, because both of these Christians, the first
century Shroud of Jesus Guy and the medieval shroud was
faked guy or whatever. They're both acting and operating like
Jesus was a real dude, Jesus Christ, the god man, Jesus.
(18:33):
That's their premise. They're actually building on that foundation. So
then the conversation about the shroud is, well, do you
think the shroud belonged to Jesus? Did it cover Jesus?
Or was Jesus covered with something else that will never
be discovered? And this was art an artifact, it was
I don't know, the image of another crucified and buried person,
(18:54):
or it's just a damn fake. The whole conversation assumes
Jesus Christ sitting over here in the green room going
ask the question. So that's what I'm going to do.
I'm going to show up and I'm going to say, hey,
maybe we should be talking about whether or not the
dude in question was actually the dude in question. You know,
(19:18):
if we found a hammer, would we start discussing whether
or not it belonged to thor Is that where this
discussion begins, or do we have to start with, hey,
was there a literal thor? So let me play you
this segment. Let's see it runs just a few minutes.
I mean, he, to his credit Peers did not interrupt
(19:40):
me after he tragically introduced me as the thinking atheist,
and I had to correct him. I'm not a great thinker.
I'm not the thinking atheist. It's an icon. I mean,
I had to start with that because, hey, somebody do
some research before you invite me on. It's on the
damn website. It's the first line in the podcast intro.
(20:02):
I am not thinking. I'm sorry, Sorry, this irritates me. Okay,
so he asked me, what are your thoughts on the shroud?
Here's what I said. Do you think it's real?
Speaker 3 (20:10):
Do you think it's fake?
Speaker 4 (20:11):
Do you think the whole thing is just a pay asta?
What do you feel? What I see mostly around the
shroud is a tremendous desire to believe, to connect dots,
and it's totally understandable. You know, people who lean into
the Jesus story, but you know whether or not it
dates to the time of Christ or to the medieval era.
(20:32):
And I tend not to discount the Carbon fourteen date.
I think apologists are quick to brush it aside, and
then they throw out a lot of fancy letters at
the end. But I don't think that we have seen
a debunking of the carbon fourteen dating of the fabric,
but even if it did date back to that era,
I mean, we're talking about a time where the Romans
(20:52):
crucified hundreds of thousands of people, and so now we're
connecting a dot and saying this looks like a crown
of thorns, and so therefore it is the Christ, and
we root that in the Bible itself, and the Christ
account in the Bible, which is hugely problematic. I heard
references to Josephus. I mean the Antiquities was what sixty
(21:16):
seventy years after the alleged death and resurrection of Jesus Christ.
Josephus was not an eye witness, and the only reference
to Christ was not about the crucifixion, the resurrection, certainly
not the shroud of Turin the Gospels, I mean, they're
not reliable because I think the earliest Gospel being Mark
was sixty nine seventy something ce, long decades after these
(21:40):
events were supposed to have happened. The authorship of all
four Gospels is not known. Nobody has pinned them down,
nobody can authenticate them. And beyond that, the Bible is
the same book that makes all kinds of claims we
might reject in another context, whether it's giant nine hundred
year old people, donkeys that spoke Hebrew, and a savior
(22:03):
baby that was born via ghost sex if you will,
to a virgin, so that the offspring could grow up
and sacrifice himself blood sacrifice to rescue us from the
very torture chamber that that God created.
Speaker 3 (22:20):
So all of this.
Speaker 4 (22:21):
About the shroud, it's interesting, I find you know, it's
the God who is not the author of confusion, though
I would think would have parted the curtain of the
sky and he would have said to all of his children,
yes it's me, or no it's not. I don't think
that's unreasonable. Jeremiah Johnson, still with that car salesman look
(22:42):
on his face, just just as slick and smooth as
you can be, decides he's going to jump in and respond,
here we go.
Speaker 3 (22:51):
Jesus Christ. The historical record is so clear that in
the eighty nine chapters of the Gospel they all point
so that Jesus really lived, he died, and even the
greatest step alive of that time had experiences of seeing
Jesus alive after he was dead. You can look at
my book Body of Proof, the Seven Best Reasons to
Believe in the bodily Resurrection of Jesus, and you can
see that I never mentioned the shroud of turn. Isn't
(23:13):
that fascinating, Pierce? I don't believe the shroud is authentic
because I want it to be. And as followers of Jesus,
we don't even need the shroud to be authentic. Is
our best evidence of the resurrection? We have so many
other lines about this, So what's fascinating, Well, yeah, exactly,
it's not an article of faith. And what's fascinating to
me is when you look at the historical records, they
stand on their own. Even atheist scholars like Garrett Ludemann
(23:36):
said in others say, I cannot argue with the fact
that the earliest followers of Jesus were first hostile to
the Christian message. They had experiences of seeing Jesus alive
after he had been dead. And they say, now, what
kind of experiences those were. We can't explain, but we
know those experiences not only change the lives of the followers,
but also change the world forever. And again, there's such
(23:58):
great evidence for the authenticity of the Gospels. We know
that Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John wrote the Gospels. We
know that Paul writes twenty years before the Gospels that
incredible passage that no serious historian our scholar calls into
question in one Corinthians fifteen, saying, this is the gospel
that Christ died for our sins. According to the scripture,
he was buried, and he rose again on the third day,
(24:20):
according to the scriptures. A quick note about Josephus. There's
some phenomenal work being done published by Oxford University Press T. S. Schmidt.
Josephus absolutely knew and had first hand acquaintance with those
who attended the trial of Jesus. So, friends, again, you
have your choice. You've got to think for yourself. This
is what I do at Christian thinker Society. You've got
to get beyond the sound bites. You've got to get
(24:40):
to the substance. Read these things for yourself and you'll
be amazed. Christianity doesn't need to be defended. It stands
up for itself.
Speaker 4 (24:47):
If I may, well that fascinating debate, yeah, very quickly. Yeah, well,
I'm not sure we can quote the Bible to prove
the Bible Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John are written in
the third person, and we're not written by a Matthew Mark,
Luk or John Mark itself was actually written by two,
possibly three authors. And even if Josephus had referenced the
(25:11):
Christ in the year one hundred CE, it wasn't a
direct reference. We're still in the arena of hearsay. This
is not evidence.
Speaker 2 (25:21):
You guys are in deep theological terror leasure.
Speaker 3 (25:24):
Now.
Speaker 4 (25:25):
I go back and forth on whether or not I
should have derailed in this way. I mean, they wanted
to talk about the shroud, right, and I was more
interested in Biblical authenticity and sourcing and hearsay and all that.
I mean, actually getting back to the Christ's story itself.
I don't know if it was in the medieval time.
(25:45):
I believe it is. I think the majority of the
evidence that is not being posited by Bible apologists. I mean,
those people front loaded their discussions with, hey, we believe
that Jesus Christ existed. We're going to lean heavily to
anything that looks like it really looks kind of like
white Jesus. But whatever whatever, All right, and then the
(26:07):
unexplainable atomic light that burned the image into the fabric.
You know, they didn't have the technology. No one knows
how it was done. It must be Jesus. And of
course you and I are saying the same thing. Okay, fine,
it looks like a guy. Let's say it was a man.
Did he sign his work? Did Jesus take a sharpie
(26:28):
and say that's me? He literally tagged it so everybody
would know he did not? Why the hell are we
arguing about the shroud all this time later? It's a
piece of cloth that's got some stuff burned or painted
into the fibers, and it's the image of a guy.
(26:48):
We ooh uh, you know, I said in my blog
it's the really the equivalent of the Weeping Lady of
Fatima's statue. You know, people see any thing that looks
I don't know, they just so desperately want to believe
it's the Jesus fish stick. Oh look, it's the imprint
of the Christ on my fish stick. Thank you Jesus.
(27:11):
Let us pilgrimage. Let us load up the church bus
and we'll go thousands of miles to a witness. And
the fish stick has been taken and it has been
preserved in a kind of epoxy so that it will
not rot. And now it's been framed and placed on
a pedestal, and it's under you know, it's behind bulletproof glass,
(27:31):
and it's anchored to the ground so it can't be stolen.
And for only twenty nine to ninety nine you two
can come into the fish Stick Jesus Museum. I mean,
I'm obviously being facetious there, but you know what I'm
talking about. This is Jesus tourism as far as I'm concerned, right,
it's Jesus tourism. Look at the Holy Land. Don't tell
(27:53):
me Jerusalem is not a tourist mecca for Christians who
genuinely think they are walking in the literal footsteps of God.
And they're bringing artifacts or it's artifacts, it's you know,
just stuff. They're bringing stuff back. This could have been
the place where Jesus carved a table. This could have
(28:15):
been where Jesus walked as he brought the Gospel to humanity.
These could have been the seas he sailed as the
nets were cast off and the fish were brought him.
This might be the place where he gave the Sermon
on the mounts. Yeah, you know what I'm saying could
have been might have been. We think it probably was.
(28:37):
The possibility is this is these are not truth claims.
Fucking tourism. Sorry, I get keyed up. I tried not to.
I didn't swear on the Piers Morgan Show, but I
wanted to, and that guy was going off and I
literally wanted to reach through and just shake him and go.
First of all, take a breath. Secondly, well, the Gospels
(28:58):
say is not an argument as not an argument? That's
my rant. Wasn't a mistake to do the show that
I perform. Okay, I'm not fishing for compliments, but you
know I went toe to toe with a shroud of
during Apologist. I think it came off. I think I
(29:19):
represented you and us. Okay, And you can go back
and watch it. The first twenty minutes are the two academics,
and then I bring up the rear as I should, right,
I brought up the rear the bottom, and I don't know.
You can tell me what you think in the comments section.
I'll see you back here in just a few days
(29:41):
for our official podcast release. See you then.
Speaker 1 (29:46):
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