The Hypocrites & the Hang-Ups (with Matt Dillahunty)

Matt joins Seth for a chat about video games, the Democrats, civil war, penis snakes, and more!

VIDEO of this conversation

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:01):
Understand the thinking atheist. It's not a person, it's a symbol,
an idea.

Speaker 2 (00:10):
The population of atheists this country is going through.

Speaker 1 (00:13):
The rule, rejecting faith, pursuing knowledge, challenging the sacred. If
I tell the truth, it's because I tell the truth,
not because.

Speaker 2 (00:22):
I put my hand on a book and made a.

Speaker 1 (00:24):
Wish and working together for a more rational world.

Speaker 3 (00:29):
Take the risk of thinking. Feel so much more happiness.
Truth Fusian wisdom will come to you that way.

Speaker 1 (00:35):
Assume nothing, question everything, and start thinking. This is the
Thinking Atheist podcast hosted by Seth Andrews.

Speaker 3 (00:56):
Okay, really fast, before we get to the interview at hands,
I'm going to be speaking in Denver, Colorado. Secular Hub
has invited me back. We started five o'clock December sixth,
and it is now official because we just confirmed and
signed the contracts and got everything all situated for an

(01:17):
event with myself, Forrest Valcai, and Erica got Sick given
two great science educators, and the guy with the big mouth.
We're all going to be on stage together in the
buckle of the Bible belt. Most of the event's going
to be audience participation. It is going to be a party,
So if you like your science with some sarcasm and

(01:38):
a whole lot of laughter, that's happening March seventh in Tulsa, Oklahoma.
Tickets just went on sale. Details on all of this
and other twenty twenty six events at the Thinkingatheist dot
com slash events. There is video of the interview you

(01:58):
are about to hear. The YouTube blink is in the
description box of the show. Joining me on the broadcast
again is longtime friend and fellow activist Matt Dillahunty. You
have seen him on the line, you see him on

(02:18):
his own Atheist Debates channel, you have seen him on
the debate stage. And he joins me here, Hey, brother,
how you doing?

Speaker 2 (02:27):
I'm living You know, it's a mixed bag. It's a
weird world I find myself. And how are you?

Speaker 3 (02:33):
Have you been gaming lately? I you know, I'm not
a gamer, but I've been playing occasionally on fire up fasmophobia.
But I know you're a gamer gamer. What are your games?
What have you been into?

Speaker 2 (02:45):
Oddly enough, I've gone back, after twenty years away to
playing EverQuest. It's a multi massively multiplayer online game that
I played. I stopped playing twenty years ago but they
have new servers that things. It's a little easier, as
a little lighter. It's not as complicated and time consuming

(03:08):
as it once was, although it has occupied a lot
of my time over the last few months. But yeah,
so I'm back.

Speaker 3 (03:13):
To Eperquest like Skyrim and all those.

Speaker 2 (03:19):
No, I suppose it's like Skyrim in the sense that
it's in a fantasy world, but the game style is
not the same. You're basically, you know, in groups and
in many groups of like up to sixty seventy people,
and you're taking down dragons with a lot of other players,
not just like yourself.

Speaker 3 (03:39):
Not to make the beginning of our conversation to Niche,
but you remember Missed, Nyst.

Speaker 2 (03:45):
Yeah, yes I do. I actually loved Missed, And for
a period of time I used to write video game
reviews for online magazines and I got sent a copy
of Riven, the sequel to mist and I wrote a
review of that that was not very flattering that I
now regret, but it was. I loved Missed. I didn't

(04:09):
like Ribbon.

Speaker 3 (04:09):
It was a big deal. You know, you had your discs.
I believe it came on several discs. It was it
even disc at that time, and it was there were
there were no characters, no spoken words. It was almost
like an elaborate, I don't know, an elaborate version of
the room. You know, we have to go and solve
various puzzles and it opens up a path to the

(04:32):
next puzzle, to the next puzzle, and it was revolutionary
for its time. It's it's very nineties. But the reason
I brought it up is I feel like I saw
that somebody had either updated it or reinvented it and
re released it, or you know, twenty twenty five. I'm
going to have to go look that up because I
would play it again. I would take that nostalgia journey.

Speaker 2 (04:52):
Yeah, there's some there was some video stuff in there,
and it's a it's a puzzle game that was a
big deal. But they included it free with like every
video card ever sold for that year or two period.
If you bought a video card, you got a copy
of Mist And it's like, that's a brilliant way to
make sure your game is the number one selling game

(05:13):
for a couple of years, even if you're not actually
selling it.

Speaker 3 (05:16):
You ever talked to no illusions that guy has video
game console, actual hard physical consoles spanning fifty years, I
mean even well before in television and the twenty six hundred.
I think he's got like the old connector with the
things you had to screw onto the back of your television.

(05:36):
He's hardcore, man.

Speaker 2 (05:38):
Yeah, I got rid of that part I have. I
have a couple of different like Raspberry pie devices that
emulate I don't know, fifty three billion consoles and stuff
like that. I got rid of all the boxes. I
used to have a bunch of them, but I switched
to being more of a PC gamer than a console
gamer a long long time ago. Yet I keep both

(06:01):
and all of like I still have like my GameCubes
in the closet and my old Xbox, my old PlayStation.
Those are all in the closet. I'm never going to
plug him in again. I don't know why I keep
them around. I guess maybe in my head there lives this. Hey,
we haven't played Guitar Hero One on the PlayStation two

(06:23):
in twenty years. Let's go look at what your old
save game records were. If the thing even boots.

Speaker 3 (06:30):
Yeah, I mean Metroid on snees sounds like a ball.
Let's go blow the dust off the old console. My
problem is and like the grandkid comes over, right, Braden
wants to play Fortnite, and he's got his PlayStation controller
with the joysticks for movement, so it's like all of
his XYZ movement at the character and XYZ movement of

(06:51):
the weapon. And I'm a PC guy. I need a
mouse and a keyboard. I'm useless with the joystick. I'm terrible.
I can't be the only one.

Speaker 2 (07:00):
No, no, no, I won't. And so when I was
when I was seriously playing first person shooters, when I
was playing Quake competitively and ran the number one counterstrike
team in the world, we there were people who kept
trying to come up with controllers. I remember there was
a controller called the Space Orb three sixty and when
we were at Quake Con ninety seven, Stevie Kilcreek Case,

(07:24):
who was dating Romero at the time, got a sponsorship
from them, and it was it looks like like you'd
have a PlayStation control or whatever, but had like a
ball and orb on one side, and you used that
as kind of like a virtual camera control, and so
you were moving with one thing and you had a
completely different thing there. It looked like a cool idea

(07:46):
in practice, it was terrible. And if you took the
best console controller joystick player at a first person shooter
and put them had to add with somebody with a
keyboard mouse, It's not even close. It's playing with the
console controllers like trying to text with mittens.

Speaker 3 (08:04):
Oh the gauntlet's been thrown. Now you're gonna get challenges.
Oh yeah, dilla hunting, Oh yeah, you want to go,
you want to bring it. Stevie Case was an object
of many fantasies among the young adult, hetero male gaming community.
I remember she there used to be a gaming magazine
and she was the hot model on the cover, and
it was a big deal that she was dating Romero,

(08:27):
and that was a whole other thing. Anyway, Actually, I
just read I can't remember the title. I forgive me
for going off on this video game tangent, but I
what was the name of that book about the origins
of ID Studios which made Wolfenstein three D and Doom
and Quake and how they exploded into a multi squillion

(08:47):
dollar company, and John Carmack and John Romero were part
of that. It's a fascinating book. So I participated in
the gaming world mostly from a distance to the audiobook
about the origin of it. Beyond all of that, you
and I are talking about the approaching holidays. I don't

(09:08):
want to be too Barbara walters about these questions when
it comes to how do you handle issues of family
during the Thanksgiving and Christmas season? But I am curious,
knowing your family's pretty fundy. Are you going to go
and hang out at the turkey table for Thanksgiving?

Speaker 2 (09:27):
No? And I don't think there is going to be
a turkey table. I haven't seen my mom since twenty nineteen.
Basically they moved a couple of times and COVID hit
and we weren't traveling, and so I have seen my dad.
My dad came down to visit me very briefly for

(09:49):
like a weekend, and he used worked for the airlines,
so you can fly for free. My mom won't fly,
and my mom doesn't really leave the house and she
doesn't really cook. So if there was to be Thanksgiving,
it would be at my brother's house, and we're not
traveling up for that. As a matter of fact, he's
coming down here this weekend to visit us, in part
because we're not going up for Thanksgiving, not because we

(10:12):
have any objection, and it's not anything to really deal with.
You just we've kind of set all that stuff behind
us to where okay, we can sit around and we
can have civil, pedestrian, boring conversations as long as we
stay away from religion and politics and anything that matters,
and we're able to do it. I just I don't

(10:35):
find it fun, So I don't care to go.

Speaker 3 (10:38):
Do you and your brother look alike? Wh I saw
you guys sit next to each other? What I'd be like? Aha? Yeah? No.

Speaker 2 (10:46):
So I'm like right around five five eleven, probably a
little shorter now as you get older you shrink a bit.
My brother's like six' four and had kind of read
curly hair growing. Up of course he's great out now.
Too he's three years younger than, me and he's genuinely
the best PERSON i. Know BUT i don't think we

(11:09):
look a lot.

Speaker 3 (11:10):
Alike when people call the line or you, know if you're,
TALKING i don't, know do you do calls on atheist
debates or is that just straight talking head counter apologetics type.

Speaker 2 (11:20):
Stuffs it's mainly lectures and clips and things like. That
the only live STYLE i might occasionally go live with
like a game or A q AND a or. Something
BUT i don't really take calls. Yet i've got two
hundred thousand. SUBSCRIBERS i THINK i should probably start doing
a variety of things.

Speaker 3 (11:37):
There but you're doing the hang up On wednesday nights
and the line On sundays very. Often if somebody calls
in and they give you that the holidays are coming,
Up i'm an. Apostate my family's freaked or. Estranged how
do you advise? Them or do you advise?

Speaker 2 (11:53):
Them, yeah every family's, different and it's up to each
to figure out how comfortable they are being themselves around
the people that they care, about around around the people
they're related, to even if they don't care about, them
if they're if they're you, know having how to deal
with that, Conflict and SO i recommend that you spend

(12:17):
some time thinking about it to, Say, okay if this comes,
up how would that make me? Feel what WOULD i
think about? It and just pick a couple of generic.
Topics what happens if you know religion comes, up what
happens If trump comes, up what happens if you know
a shutdown or healthcare or you don't necessarily have to
take an inventory of every position you have but figuring

(12:39):
out what you're comfortable saying around the people you're going
to be around is something THAT i think it's incredibly
sad that we should have to, do or that we
might ever be expected to, do or that might even
be a good idea to do to kind of filter
yourself around the people that you care, About but it
seems necessary because there are people who are more interested

(13:03):
in keeping the peace than there are in uh. Not
AND i think if you have, you if you walk
through those a little, bit you won't be caught as off.
Guard and the key thing is to have you, know,
Hey i'm not sure WHAT i think about, that OR
i don't THINK i want to talk about, that or you,
know that's not a SUBJECT i want, to you, know

(13:26):
HAVE i want to catch up with, YOU i want
TO i want to hang out with you. Know make
it it's really easy to let people know That i'm
here BECAUSE i wanted to spend time with you despite
the fact that we're going to disagree on, things and
THAT i valued, ENOUGH i valued our relationship enough that
agreement isn't the foundational. Criteria there are.

Speaker 3 (13:47):
A lot of people going into family time or debating
skipping family time because you Enable, trump you're dead to,
me WHICH i. UNDERSTAND i, Mean i'm not saying that
you know you're dead to me is the appropriate, response
but it's. UNDERSTANDABLE i Mean trump one point, oh, fine

(14:09):
he was going to be the big disruptor and you
bought into the business genius and he was the outsider
and the okay, Fine but with two point, ZERO i
just feel like there's no, excuse.

Speaker 2 (14:22):
No, no we're in exactly the same. Boat i've said.
THIS i don't know how many Times arna AND i
talked ABOUT i hate so. Like for, example When Charlie
kirk was, ASSASSINATED i posted no. Sympathy, now CLEARLY i
didn't mean THAT i don't have sympathy for anybody in the.
WORLD i didn't even mean THAT i don't have sympathy
for his wife and. KIDS i already had sympathy for

(14:44):
his kids by virtue of them being the children of
someone who said if they were sexually assaulted and became,
pregnant he would force them to carry it to. TERM
i already had lots of problems with. HIM i didn't
like the fact THAT i couldn't muster sympathy For Charlie
kirk it was just a fact THAT i don't MISS
i didn't relish his. DEATH i didn't want him to.

(15:05):
Die nobody deserves to die like. That it's not the
world THAT i want to live. In but it's just
a fact THAT i have zero sympathy For Charlie. Kirk
and when it comes to Like, Trump I'm i'm with
you in. That you, KNOW i was pretty pissed the
first time, around but Now I'm i'm not Even i'm
not even, shocked And i'm NOT i can't even pretend

(15:27):
to know or understand what the reason is or even
care that much it when the world makes me hate
who the world is turning me, into and yet it
seems like the right thing to. Do how do you
not stand up against? Injustice how do? You And i'm
baffled at what's going? On and so, YEAH I i

(15:51):
don't care to spend any time with anyone who is
outspokenly PRO maga at this. POINT i don't care if
you're my, mother my best friend of twenty, years or whatever.
Else i've clearly made some kind of mistake in in

(16:11):
evaluating what kind of CONVERSATIONS i can have with. Somebody if,
that if we're that different on that. Subject it drives
me bonkers BECAUSE i think a lot of it is
nostalgia and, fear and that is that we live in
the most rapidly changing world. Ever there's more access to more,

(16:35):
information there is more access to diversity of, opinion there
is more, information but also. Confusion AND i don't know
that it's as easy as, saying, oh it's racism as
much as it Is, oh the world's too changing too
quickly for some, people and too far from what they

(16:55):
recognized as this is what the world. Is and so
there's this acid backlash where they want to take us
back to the fifties or the forties or whatever they
imagine the world like that to have. Been and so
they don't they don't even think about the. Consequences it's, just,
oh there's there's too much queer, stuff there's too much trand.
Stuff there's too much of, this and we're given they're

(17:17):
coming to coming for my, jobs they're coming from my,
money and and all these people are getting away with.
It nobody wants to, work and NOBODY i remember back
in my, Day AND i think it's mostly nostalgia for
something that never really, existed a fictional construct in their
head that they're afraid of losing that they never had
in the first.

Speaker 3 (17:34):
Place much, much much More with friend and fellow Activist Matt.
Dillahunty we continue in just a. Second thanks for your
support On. Patreon you get the show early and commercial

(17:55):
free patreon dot com Slash Seth andrew's continuing now with
my Guest Matt Dilla. Hunting someone once, said and there
may be some truth to, this that the white majority
is terrified of growing diversity because they know how minorities

(18:17):
have been treated in this. Country maybe they're projecting a
little bit your take on, That.

Speaker 2 (18:23):
Yeah, NO i think fundamentally people are, Like, oh for,
example consider. Slavery when you look at, like for, example
The bible endorses slavery very. CLEARLY i don't even understand
how people can argue against. This it specifically tells you
who to, enslave how to enslave, them how you treat
You jewish slaves different from your gentile, slaves et. Cetera

(18:45):
And i've had different apologists give me different excuses for
why it is this. Way, well they didn't know any
better back. Then, well first of, ALL i thought this
was supposed to be From, god AND i would Think
god should know. Better but if you ever wanted to
know if slavery was, wrong all you had to do
was ask. Slave and the fact that that didn't occur
to people already shows that there is a degree of

(19:08):
bigotry there where they're not on equal. Footing you, Know,
oh your opinion of whether or not it's right to
enslave you isn't just as powerful as my opinion that
yes it, Is and so they know the difference in.
Treatment and when you've been in a privileged position for
a long, time, generations all of a, sudden even equality

(19:33):
or mere slight privilege feels like an. Infraction it feels
like somebody's taking something away from you because, oh, well
it's a zero sum, game and if you take part
of my, happiness Then i'm going to not be as.
Happy why DID i have to take any of your
happiness in the first. PLACE i didn't need your happiness

(19:55):
to make me. Happy but when you are, happy IF
i care about, you that adds to my. Happiness and
it's not a zero. Summe we both just keep getting.
Happier AND i, think you, KNOW i, MEAN i don't
want to make it sound like it's all easy and.
Bliss but, YEAH i think that the fear is hang.
On If i'm in a position of, POWER i know

(20:16):
That i'm a good person AND i will use that power,
Responsibly BUT i don't know that that's true for other.
People and right, now the people who are in power
are the ones who are demonstrating exactly who shouldn't have
power and why they.

Speaker 3 (20:28):
Shouldn't one of the examples recently is the big argument
about snap benefits, previously AND i think in a pejorative
way called, welfare which you, know it's assistance to those in,
need and the narrative coming out of you, Know maga
country is crackhores and welfare. Queens if you'll forgive me

(20:51):
for being, crasped but this is how they're framing. It
they are, dehumanizing they're all a bunch of. Parasites they're draining,
us they're, lazy they're all these. Things and of course
THEN i had to go AND i was, like, WELL
i wonder what the statistics. Are and the vast majority
of people who RECEIVE snap benefits have jobs at least
one many are trapped in service jobs that are on the.

(21:13):
Bubble they could be hired or fired at any. Moment
they don't pay very. Well you, know many are, veterans
many are victims of abuse or who have been put
in disadvantage situations for any host of, reasons and, so you,
know the dehumanization of those who are in. Need to,

(21:35):
me it just comes back to. Cruelty AND i think to,
Myself Elon musk is apparently now worth the trillion. Dollars
this guy has the opportunity to commit unbelievable resources to
help fixing the world's, problems and people are bitching about
assistance to people who are, hungry and my sympathy center dry.

(22:00):
UP i just can't muster any you.

Speaker 2 (22:03):
Know, yeah the my understanding of the trillion dollar thing
With elon isn't that he's now worth a trillion dollars
or that he's being paid a trillion. Dollars a matter of,
FACT i think he's mad about the, deal and that
is that, Basically tesla, said will agree to pay you
a trillion dollars over this many years if in fact
you meet these. Goals And elon doesn't want to meet.

(22:24):
Goals he wants to be you, know the head guy in,
charge and just soak up as much money as it.
Can but it's funny that on THE snap benefits LIKE i,
GRABBED i just went back and Checked october SECOND i
grabbed that, chart you won't be able to see it at,
all and saved it to my. PHONE i do this a.

(22:48):
Lot it's one of the best uses of memes is
THAT i keep a bucket of them on the phone
that are specifically data related to the facts of reality
that are going to end up discussing in. Arguments and
so what this chart lists is for all of these social,
services So Social, SECURITY, Ssi, Medicare, MEDICAID, Chip marketplace, Insurance marketplace,

(23:13):
subsidies SNAP ta and F section eight, Housing Federal Student,
aid head, Start PUBLIC k through twelve. Education it lists
who gets those benefits and it is citizens In green
card individuals, only and then refugees have access to a
handful of, those nobody IN. Daka, so for, example FOR,

(23:34):
snap no, refugees no, assylies NO, daca no non tourist,
visas no asylum, applicants and no unauthorized, immigrants none of
them have any access TO. Snap and it also goes
through and lists what the responsibilities are because in those
different categories of. People you either have to pay, taxes

(23:54):
you're eligible to, work you're eligible to you to vote
or not in different. Things so they are all required
to pay. Taxes, everybody the, folks the non tourist visa,
folks the asylum, applicants the unauthorized, hments they are all
legally required to pay. Taxes and none of those are
eligible at all FOR snap. Benefits and yet The republicans

(24:17):
are sitting there claiming The democrats were intentionally shutting the
government down so that they could get snap benefits to undocumented.
Immigrants and that's just an absolute. Lie it's not what
they're advocating, for it's not what they have any illegal
authority to. Do it is a complete. Fiction and so

(24:40):
when Mom donnie wins and we know we're still in this,
shutdown we finally got leverage and it's working, now all
of a, Sudden i'm. Convinced Chuck schumer arranged for eight
senators who would not be up for election until twenty
twenty eight or who were retiring to bite the bullet
in cave and restore the government to functioning order and

(25:03):
basically give The republicans what they want with nothing more than,
oh we promise we'll have a vote that you won't,
win that won't be effective at. All and what's the
worst you can do if they don't have those votes is, say,
oh they didn't give us the vote they promised. Us well.
Congratulations you know They're Charlie. Brown It's lucy with the
football and you should have seen that. BEFORE i don't understand,

(25:25):
this this. Cathing now it's, like, oh we're never going
to give. Up we're never going to give. Up and
then boom right when you are at your most powerful
and they are their their absolute. Weakest of this entire,
thing it wasn't. Working we'll give it to.

Speaker 3 (25:42):
HIM i want to come back to that in just a.
Second Elon, musk you, KNOW i, struggled and to be,
fair you, Know tesla cars are often called pieces of
shit and, whatnot but that's actually consumers love The. Tesla's
by the, way why THE s and the three were

(26:04):
not designed By? Elon he just came. In you, know
what's the bird that swoops in on somebody else's nest
and kind of takes. Credit the one thing he was
involved with was one of the worst ideas in the
history and automotive, history which of course was the cyber,
truck but everything. Else customer satisfaction scores are through the.
Roof people like the ev and they like The, tesla
SO i think we have to be fair. There But

(26:26):
Elon musk himself is a human rights. NIGHTMARE i am
convinced that if any OTHER ceo had lost the, money
lost the sales that he had he's lost For, tesla
and had been a public relations nightmare the way he has,
been he would be. Gone AND i just want to
go grab every member of The tesla board and shake

(26:48):
them and say what the hell is wrong with? You
and then AND i have a destination. Here this was
a while, back BUT i have to review it since
we're Talking. Elon Richard dawkins is gilling me beyond all
the other shit that he's. Done he posts That elon
is highly intelligent and diametrically opposed To. Trump he has

(27:09):
the welfare of the world at. Heart Now i'm just,
like on what planet are you talking? About SO i
made a short List elon pulling around with the, Cretness Tucker,
carlson who in turn pals around with the creetness and
Predatory Andrew. Tait elon posted atheism left in empty, space

(27:30):
secular religion took its. Place he bought into the Evil
George soros conspiracy, theories and he blasted him probying two
hundred radio stations for propaganda, reasons apparently forgetting that he
BOUGHT x for the same. Thing he called climate change legislation.
Communism In november of twenty, three he claimed That jews

(27:53):
promoted white. Hatred he had pledged In march of twenty,
two twenty four he wasn't going to donate to either presidential.
Candidate oh, yeah look look how that worked. Out he
Welcomed Alex jones back to his. Platform he spread anti VAX's.
Nonsense he piled on With Joe rogan against Doctor Peter.

(28:15):
Hotez he just. CRAY i, mean and that's just a
drop in the drop of the. Bucket and now WHAT i,
see how well funded it? IS i? Think is he? Unstoppable,
jesus the guy controls two thirds of the world. Satellites
he has one of the world's biggest. Platforms how do
what do we do to stop that?

Speaker 2 (28:34):
Train he, also SO i HAVEN'T i. MIGHT i might
post something TO x Or twitter once every two or three. Months,
NOW i might Remember, Hey i'm getting ready to go.
Live i'll share out a link just in case anybody's
still over there who might want to come over and
watch the. Show other than, THAT i don't spend any
time there. ANYMORE i, BET i bet there's maybe four

(28:57):
comments in the last six or eight months from me
anywhere On. Twitter and one of the things that he
did is as the chat gpt slash predictive language model
version of AI's become more, popular he decided he wanted,
one so he Created, well he didn't create. It he

(29:17):
doesn't create anything as his team do, it or he
buys up the stuff that somebody else has, done so
they CREATE. Groc and SO groc is THIS ai chat
assistant ON x that you can ask. Questions and THEN
groc started giving answers which were ostensibly correct but weren't
To elon's. Liking so what did he? Redo what did he?

(29:39):
Do he had them rewrite it to make sure that
it only answered in specific. Ways so now instead of
having an accurate, model or at least a predictive language
model based on a broad set of, views now you
have one where there's no clear demonstration of accuracy and
the views that it's based done are much more narrow

(30:02):
so it is absolutely a propaganda, machine and despite, that
it has still bucked up back against them a couple.
Times this is how divorced from reality some of these people.
ARE i just don't understand. IT i, MEAN i can speculate,
about you, know nostalogia or racism or, fear BUT i

(30:26):
think a good chunk of it. Is while it's true
that some people may not know what sources to trust
and to what extent to trust, THEM i think other
people are just using that as an excuse to be.
Like it reminds me early on WHEN i was Debating
christian apologists and they would say something, like, well you,

(30:49):
know you can't trust. Science science keeps changing what it,
says and we had to explain to them that's. True
that's the strength of. It as we learn more and
find out, more science refines itself so that we are
ever narrowing in on a more accurate understanding we. Are
we are not. Stuck it is not. Dogma we are.

(31:10):
There it is a strength of science that it can,
change and it changes for good reasons to ensure that
it almost certainly changes towards a more accurate. Result Musk's
groc is doing the opposite of, that and the people
out there are using that as an excuse the oh,
well there's you, know are you listening To fox or

(31:32):
are you listening TO msnbc or you listening TO c
and you're only going with your news. Source and then
we get something like Ground news that will show you
from a variety and you can. COMPARE i use it
all the. Time it's a, great great, tool and there's
several other tools like. IT i don't know if they're a,
sponsor but if you if you're going to if you're

(31:55):
if you're confused about who to, trust that's one. Thing
but if you're just cynical and Saying i'm not gonna
bother trust, anybody, now you're just. Lazy now you don't
even want to know the. Truth when it's, Accessible it
is not like it's. DIFFICULT i get. It when you
start scrolling through, doom scrolling through your social media and

(32:16):
you see memes or claim or a, headline it's a
we're all. Busy every single one of us has shared
something probably without, checking and god bit in the ass over.
It you, Know, hey you shared something that wasn't. True
but if you're not willing to be corrected to take
it down to do a better job next. Time why

(32:40):
if you're not willing to do a better job next,
time why'd you take it down in the first. Place
and you don't really care about. Truth you just want
to spread information because the community there isn't about you
or what you. Think it's just not missing.

Speaker 3 (32:53):
Out so back to The democrats and the folding on
the government, shutdown. Etc interesting that despite the fact That
trump is seeing record on popularity. Numbers i'm sure you
saw the video of him being booed and jeered and
middle fingered at the was it The washington game or?

(33:15):
WHATEVER i? Mean he is just he's crashing and burning
even among some who voted for. Him, finally not nearly.
Enough but support or admiration for The Democratic party is
not doing all that great. Either, Nope AND i suspect
it is the, perception which is the reality that these
herded cats can't get their shit. Together, yeah what's your

(33:39):
take on The Democratic party were shooting ourselves in this?

Speaker 2 (33:42):
Deal, well we would, be Except i'm not A. Democrat,
NOW i do tend to vote for The democrat more
often than not because it's closer to what my views.
ARE i got into an argument. Briefly there's This canadian
rapper that's an alt right rapper NAMED i Think tom

(34:03):
McDonald or something like, that and he was getting ready
to release this this song Called Woke world or, whatever
AND i Just i've rolled my eyes right off the,
bat because none of them seem to know what woke.
Is none of them seem to. Know none of them
seem to know what anything. Is you, know communism, bad socialism,
bad woke, bad it. Is it's not even the bumper

(34:23):
stickers and the McNuggets now at this, point it's it's
just fragments of thought being regurgitated as, if you, know
as if they. Matter and so this person was in our. Chat,
now in, game we tend to keep politics and religion
and stuff like out of it because you're in a

(34:44):
group with a whole bunch of people and you don't
get to dictate to everybody, else and you shouldn't be
making it uncomfortable for. It so we just stay out of,
it stay in the fantasy world and stay out of
the real. World but he decided, to you, know celebrate
the this coming, track AND i let him, know you, know,

(35:05):
Hey I'm i'm gonna go ahead and mute. You it's
probably going to make things, difficult you, know in the,
guild BUT i need you to, know if you, like
send me a message for, Something you're not going to
get a response Because i'm muting, you Because i'm not
going to sit here and hang out with people who
are celebrating alt right rap that is further marginalizing people

(35:28):
and spreading misinformation and. Lies and that person lost their
shit and went and complained to the rest of the
guild and, said, OH i cussed them, out AND i
talked About Alt white AND i didn't talk About alt white.
ANYTHING i, mean it was just a big misinformation. Thing
so in that, SITUATION i just wanted to have my time.

(35:51):
Away i'm still, grouping you, know with that individual in
the in the game sense and other things like. That
it's been wild trying to figure out alan where to draw.
Lines And i've forgotten your question and wandered.

Speaker 3 (36:09):
Astray so my. Apologies go, ahead wander all you. Want
that's why people tune. In you never know where the
journey's going to take.

Speaker 2 (36:17):
You As matt becomes more, adult you might get something
more interesting or, wait why DID i watch.

Speaker 3 (36:22):
This why DID i walk in this? Room is kind
of the thing that comes out of my mouth all the.
Time you mentioned debate. EARLIER i checked this out as
BEST i, could and it looked. Legitimate of, course you're
familiar with one Of america's, Pastors Douglas, Wilson i'm. Sure
SO i get this email message from apparently one of

(36:45):
his agents or. Whatever Douglas wilson would like to debate
a naturalistic or no material materialist atheist on his. Channel
SO i finally, responded AND i, said all, Right i'll do,
This i'll. Engage i'll do it IF i can release
the entire unedited broadcast also on my, channel yeah a day.

(37:12):
Past the response, was, hey we've had a, conflict but
thank you so much for your. Time AND i was
reminded of the old Side Tim Brugan kate debate that you.
DID i rushed out there with some cameras AND i
released the entire unedited two hours before anybody else could
go in and unfairly. Edit have you had experience with

(37:34):
that somebody grabs something you said and quote mine or
splice you.

Speaker 2 (37:38):
Up, WELL i know that it. HAPPENS i don't tend
to pay any attention to, it and SO i know
there are clips and videos out. THERE i mostly know
about it because somebody else will reach out to. ME
i DON'T i don't go looking for fortigues or, criticisms

(38:01):
and there's a bunch OF i, mean anybody can make
a channel and put up. WHATEVER i. Remember apologia reached
out to me Because Cameron bertuzzi had done something where
he was kind of mocking, me but as kindly as.
Possible cameron is not really the sharpest spoon in the

(38:22):
drawer when it comes to kind of identifying logical fallacies
and flawed arguments and things like, that and So paul
AND i went through and kind of watched it and
he got my reactions to some of. It if it
weren't for, THAT i don't THINK i would have even
known about. It and YET i KNEW i Met. Cameron
we've been in the same place multiple times for some

(38:44):
of those modern databates, events and SO i know people do.
That i've anticipated that people would do that since the
very first episode of ANYTHING i ever did. LIVE i
just as long As i'm comfortable with What i'm. Saying
the only thing THAT i feel the need well this

(39:05):
is a lie THAT i almost told us gonna. Say
the only THING i FEEL i need to respond to
are things that, are you, know actually factually, incorrect and
not just, oh somebody's attacking. Me but it's really easy
to get me to respond to almost anything that is
an attack on me IF i feel it's. Inaccurate that's
Something i'm working on to. Change BUT i don't tend

(39:26):
to see the dishonest clips and with somebody LIKE i
Mean Douglas. Wilson this is someone who re wrote or
tempted to rewrite and completely whitewash slavery by saying that
slavery was something that brought the races. Together, well yes it, Did,

(39:49):
douglas but not in the way that one side. Wanted,
unbelievable he. Said he, said slavery produced in The, south
a genuine affection between the races that we, believe we
can say has never existed in any nation before the
war or.

Speaker 3 (40:07):
Since is there a, debate opponent where you walked off
the stage or out of the zoom call that you,
THOUGHT i respect that person like they showed up in good.
Faith they they did it. Right we, disagree but you
KNOW i admire that person you Got.

Speaker 2 (40:23):
Anyboddy, yeah actually there's quite a few that some of.
Them some of them still got heated at some. Point
BUT i mean we had good discussions and. DEBATES i
enjoyed Debating Blake. JUNTA i enjoyed Debating John. Ferrer there's
a few. OTHERS i actually enjoyed the discussion With Jordan,

(40:47):
peterson even though it was it wasn't a, debate and
it was kind of it was, difficult and he turned
out to be incredibly you, know, dishonest saying oh, Yeah
i'd love to do this, again and then ran down
in his dressing ROOM i, hid never to be seen from,
again and well at least not by. Me there are
a handful, that you, know like if they reached out

(41:08):
and they, said, hey you want to do this another,
Debate i'd be, like, yeah because even though we, disagree
we can. Disagree, well it's not like somebody's just lying
about the other. Person whether or not they're being honest
about what they, think or whether or not they're presenting good.
Arguments those are all. THINGS i, mean that's the whole
point of doing a. Debate we can't both be right

(41:29):
if we. Disagree so, yeah there's been a handful of
people like that, now some of, them Like blake was
for a while my absolute favorite debated. Point we had
really good. Discussions he then went on to say some
things that were problematic about queer folks and queer rights

(41:49):
and stuff like. That and, SIMILARLY i, thought like a
year and a half, ago For, EASTER i went To
florida and Debated Dan christopolis and we got. Along, GIRL i, thought, like,
GENUINELY i thought That dan AND i we talked about working,
Together we talked about doing collabse on. THINGS i, figured
of most of all the people THAT i, Debated van

(42:13):
was the one WHERE i was most likely to have
a a moderately, close possible friend that we disagreed on
religion and could have those discussions and produce. Content and
then he got hooked up With Michael jones and some
other debate, bros AND i don't, know just turned into

(42:35):
an ass.

Speaker 3 (42:35):
Hat so what are these debates? Themed they usually have
a title at least you know something to sell it.
On Is god? Real did the resurrection? Happen the debate
you participate, in do they.

Speaker 2 (42:49):
Start with some sort of a, Frame, yeah if it's
a if it's a proper like not a call in show,
thing but a structured. Debate then what ends up happening
is we, Say, okay what topic are we going to?
Debate how are we going to define those? Terms and
what is the format of? Structure you, know how many
are we going to have openings? Rebuttals are we going to,

(43:11):
have you, know brief? Openings and then just discussion? Time
AND i have my favorite or preferred formats that they
get closer to. CONVERSATIONAL i want equal time to present,
ideas AND i like having a moderator make sure that

(43:32):
we're we're treating each other fairly in, discussion but MAINLY
i prefer like the. Discussion and so what you'll end
up doing is you'll, say, okay let's debate, this and
here's the, structure and we'll do it on this date
and blah blah. Blah AND i like all of. That
but what people don't realize is because they're used to

(43:53):
also seeing some absolutely awful debate formats and, structures and
it's now his theater and it's, jousting and let me
put you with twenty of these and it's going to
just be you, Know Charlie kirk wasn't a. Debater Charlie
kirk was a. Fraud Charlie kirk debated On Easy. Mode

(44:14):
you put anybody who barely knows or a topic at a,
university you, know with a. Crowd they're taking on people
who are new to this but who don't have the
power of the, mic who he can shut. Down if
you took at what was, happening like right before he got,
shot he was not giving real. Answers he was being
glib and going for plause. Lines Charlie kirk was basically

(44:34):
doing The Hello cleveland of. Debate it's not like he
was AN nba, star you, know punching down to. Children
he was a college dropout as. Well but it's debating
is a skill and it's a bit of, theater and
especially when you hold all the. Cards the things that

(44:55):
happen on The Collins. Shows people complain to me all the.
Time why WOULD i call in your call and Show
i'm not going to get treated. Fairly you're gonna put
me on hold and then you're going to hang up
and you're gonna mock. Me, actually that only happens if
you're not engaging, honestly the people who are capable of
having a respectful conversation back and. Forth that never. Happens
it's just it just becomes closer to an actual, debate

(45:19):
and so there are people get used to seeing that.
Format and THEN i walked out of two different, debates
one because this person was a flat earther who had
promised not to bring up that. Subject and the other
one Was Andrew, wilson who had agreed to debate TOPIC
a and then showed up and tried to debate TOPIC

(45:42):
b while also mocking trans people ending their own, lives.

Speaker 3 (45:48):
AND i.

Speaker 2 (45:52):
It's your. Job let's say you fix PCs and you
get called over to somebody's house and they want to
contract you to fix their personal. Computer and you show
up and you and they, say you, KNOW i, know
we wanted you to come over and fix MY, pc
But i'm willing to set that aside and still pay
you if instead you'll fix my. Dishwasher, now you may

(46:16):
be an expert dishwasher, repair but that's not what you agreed,
to and that's not what you prepped. For and so
you can stay and do it if you want. To
but it's all so. Valid it's a complete waste of my.
Time to, say, hey let's debate on which is better
for the, world secular humanism or a biblical, worldview and then, say, oh,

(46:36):
Well i'll set all that aside if you'll just tell
me how a man can get. PREGNANT i, mean this
is this is the clickbait dishonesty that in that, CASE
i didn't want to, dignify SO i walked. Out and
you know, anybody oh you, ran you couldn't answer his.
Questions well you can think that all you, want BUT
i did answer his questions afterwards and before and countless other.

(46:57):
Times and if he had he or anybody else had
wanted a debate on that, TOPIC i would have done.
It this was about lying and mocking. PEOPLE i just
did a video not long ago to asking if debate
is dead and whether or not me and some others

(47:18):
in working with the shock formats like modern day, debates
if we helped kill it.

Speaker 3 (47:26):
OFF i want to talk about debate and debate, tactics
AND i want to talk About Matt delahunty's reputation for you,
Know i'm just going to leave. It there is. Reputation
i'm going to ask him about that and a whole
lot More we continue in just. Second continuing now my

(47:53):
conversation with special Guest Matt, DELAHUNTY i co hosted With
Aaron adair On skeptalk on The line. Network, recently one
of the callers dialed. In he started, With i'll ADMIT
i don't really know much about The bible or My christian,

(48:13):
faith BUT i wanted to call and tell you WHY
i think it's. True and at the beginning of the,
CALL i was, like, well hang on just a. Second
you're telling me that you haven't educated yourself about the
religion and you're not well prepared to engage in an
apologetics discussion to prove your. Faith but you've called to

(48:38):
prove your. Faith and he's, like, YEAH i think that
call went on for like fifteen. Minutes how do you
handle something like? That you, know somebody dials, In they're,
LIKE i don't know what the Hell i'm talking. About let's.
Talk do you?

Speaker 2 (48:51):
ENGAGE i had a call almost exactly like this On,
sunday And i've had it many times, before and in this,
case ALL i did was ask the, questions because if you're, saying,
HEY i think this is, true BUT i don't think
there's any way to test it AND i don't just

(49:13):
and in this, case it wasn't JUST i don't think
this is testable or. Falsifiable they're saying it will never be,
Testable And i'm, like, so wait a. Minute you're saying
it's not testable or, falsifiable and you know that it's
never going to be testable or false. FIABLE i don't
even know how you reach that, conclusion because in, Principle
i'm not necessarily convinced that the proposition is in principle.

(49:37):
Untestable but you're comfortable saying you believe it's true while
acknowledging you have absolutely no, method, mechanism or information to
show that it's. True and the guy was, like, yeah you, can.

(50:00):
Don't it's. There it's going to Be it's going to
make for great clips because we got this guy to, admit,
Yes i'm aware that my position is. Irrational, okay, FINE
i understand how that might be. Appealing you, know but
if you believed that you were going to inherit a
billion dollars next year and you found out today that

(50:22):
not only do you have no way to no reason
to think that that's actually, true but possibly some good
reason to think it's. False would you keep spending money
and anticipation of the billion dollars you think you're, getting
and would you say it's rational for you to keep
acting as if you're going to be getting a billion
dollars in a year when you have no reason to think.
SO i, mean and by the, way the odds of

(50:42):
inheriting a billion dollars next year are seemingly And i'm
going to use the word infinitely, inappropriately infinitely more likely
than that there's A god that is untestable and unfalsifiable
that you can believe in. Irrationally it. Is it is
wild to me how people have missed some of the.

(51:03):
Basics and it's like the carve out a special category
for religion and what they call, spirituality WHICH i still
don't know what it, is and it has a completely
different set of.

Speaker 3 (51:14):
Rules so one of my jobs as an interviewer is
to ask some of the questions THAT i Think god
want to. Hear Maybe i'm a dick for asking, it
BUT i saw on the line in the comments section
what somebody had labeled The Matt dillahunty rage chart or

(51:35):
something where they went call by call to gauge just
how pissed off you had become at the. Caller SO
i guess the question, Is, matt are you a? Dick you,
know whenever you go off on somebody as some people
that pushes him back and they're, like, hey, wait that was.
Inappropriate how would you? Respond i'm just curious how you

(51:56):
approach that.

Speaker 2 (51:56):
STUFF i haven't seen the, YEAH i don't me you're.
Wrong from almost day, one it's been a parade of,
oh you're so angry and you're a, dick And i'm, like,
well hang, On i've, somehow for twenty years managed to
have conversations with PEOPLE i disagree with and as long

(52:17):
as they're honest interlocutors and we're able to just, say,
YEP i don't agree with that and we can talk about,
it where's the dick? Thing is it just a dick
not agree with? Him but the problem is it seems
that a significant contingent of theists and people who believe

(52:38):
in other potential supernatural things or woo things are not
only not engaged in a rational outlook on the, world
but are pretending that those of us who try to
seek this rational outlook on the world have. Failed and to,
me that's the dick move to arrogantly Claim i'm right

(53:03):
and you are wrong when the evidence and reason is
on the side of the people that you're saying, wrong
that you're saying they're. Wrong HAVE i been a? Dick you?
Bet HAVE i been condescending and arrogant and dismissive and, Frustrated,
yeah you. Bet but what's weird is some of it

(53:26):
is it's just Naturally i'm going to get hyped. Up
i'm a Hot you called me a hot. Head we
had an argument once And you're, Like, matt you're a,
hothead And i'm, like you're fucking, Right i'm a.

Speaker 3 (53:36):
HOTHEAD i, MEAN i didn't bring it up BECAUSE i just, think,
well it's an entertaining and it's a compelling. Question but
it's also like it's a way for us to talk
about it and flesh out exactly what drives different tactics
and approaches when it comes to. Debate so it's not an,
ambush you, know my? Friend, Okay, No.

Speaker 2 (53:57):
I'm you're, Right and the difference is for, me there
are times WHEN i think that the correct thing to,
do both from a moral standpoint and with the threat
of the consequences in the world is to be a

(54:17):
hothead and to let that passion get to the point
where people can, see, oh BECAUSE i get you, know
you AND i were talking about The maga folks earlier
and how maybe During trump one you could be, like,
yeah we all get duped by. Something but now you're without.
Excuse i'm in this position Where i've done this for twenty,
years and it takes all of my effort to try

(54:41):
to remember that the Person i'm talking to isn't the
same person That i've been talking to for twenty, years
because IF i treat this person right off the bat
as if that person AND i have been having this
conversation for twenty, years that would be a complete dick.
Move and so starting with you, know, hey what do you,
Got let's, Go let's? Go is my is my fuse

(55:05):
shorter than it? Is actually it's probably a little longer.
Now and what we noticed is that WHEN i make
an effort to, say, Okay i'm going to make more
jujus is hues of the whole. Button, Okay i'm not
going to cuss or say shut up or you know whatever.
Else Whatever the thing is that people are, like, oh
you need to change. This WHEN i make those, changes

(55:29):
call volume goes down and the show performs. Worse, now
that may not be a bad. Thing that may actually
be a good, thing because the question, is if call
volume goes down and the show's perform, worse are people
watching because they just want to see me yell at
somebody for being? Stupid because that's not WHY i want

(55:49):
to do the. Show that's not Why i've been doing
the show THAT i don't know that THAT'S i, mean
that is just garbage. Entertainment it's not really educating. ANYBODY
i don't mind exposing where irrationality is across the, board
but it needs to still be you, know we get

(56:10):
so many troll, calls people who are just genuinely, dishonest
and then you add in the tech issues and, yeah
it's going to irk me AND i make mistakes.

Speaker 3 (56:19):
Frequently here's a peek behind the. CURTAIN i look at the.
Switchboard not really on my, Channel, Lie i've been PRETTY
i hate to use the word, blessed but you, know
we don't do theist debate. Calls it's rare that a
religious person will dial, in and you, Know i'll engage
for a. While but on the line network there's a
lot more of, that theist atheist back and. Forth And

(56:41):
i'll see on the switchboard it tells you how many
times this person is called into the. Show, yeah eight previous,
calls twelve previous, calls nineteen previous. Calls AND i can't
escape the feeling that this person is just kind of.

(57:02):
Masturbating they they get off on hearing, Themselves maybe they
get off on being a. Troll maybe they're bored and
they just want To they just like being on the,
show and in good faith they dial. IT i, mean
who knows what their motivations. Are but if you see,
that does it affect whether or not you go? There,
hey so and so's dialing in for the fifteenth time

(57:23):
and he wants to talk about? Morality what do you
do with?

Speaker 2 (57:27):
That, yeah it's something THAT i really. WISH i on
the one, hand we don't dox, people Like i've said.
Before you, Know i've got your phone. Number there are
people who call in And i've got their phone. NUMBER
i don't give it to, anybody AND i don't call them.
Back but it's, like it's wild to me what some
people are willing to do calling in from their actual.

(57:49):
Telephone we've got color. Idea but WHEN i look down
AND i, see, oh this person's called four times and
it shows when their last call, was like they Call
wednesday or they Called, tuesday you, Know i'll know, That,
oh this person called chewed gum yesterday and they're calling.
Today what does that tell? ME i don't. KNOW i

(58:11):
don't tend to make that announcement to. PEOPLE i will sometimes,
mention you, know, hey we've got so and so as
a return. Caller because IF i look down AND i
see they called a week ago and the topic was
pretty much the same as it is, now and this
is the seventeenth call from, them they're going to automatically

(58:35):
get a shorter fuse than me than the other people
who are on, hold, because on the one, hand if
they're calling in to waste, time then they're being rude
and disrespectful to, me to my co, host to the,
audience and to all the other people who are on
hold who may be calling in with an honest. Conversation On, sunday,

(58:57):
well two days ago we. Did we can get a
bunch of theistic, callers but we had mostly good. Conversations
there was one or, two you, know little. Problems but
IF i see that somebody's called a. Bunch i'm starting
to wonder if MAYBE i should let the audience, know,

(59:17):
because let's be, Honest i've done this for twenty, years
and not all the, time but most of the, TIME
i know exactly where that caller is probably going before
the overwhelming majority of people. Listening, no only Because i've
heard it so, much you, Know and you can tell

(59:38):
by the way they phrase this or what they say,
that what they do, ask what they don't, ask the
way they don't answer the, question the way it's clear
that they didn't listen to the question or were waiting
for their turn to, speak maybe at. Most and after
doing it this, long it's just difficult to not catch
on to all of. That and so the biggest PROBLEM

(59:59):
i have is wanting to rush right to the. End,
okay you said, this here's the fallacy in your. Argument
here's what's wrong with, It here's what you need to.
Study here's how you don't understand. Epistemology next color LIKE
i fixed, them you can't do. That and so there's.
This it's it's a. Difficult i'm. Tired i'm exhausted when
the shows are over Because i'm doing a lot of.

(01:00:22):
Thinking i'm doing a lot of. Navigating i'm doing a
lot of. Multitasking i've stopped paying as much attention to
chat When i'm on the show AS i used. To
but you, Know i'm paying attention to all five six
lines and who's on there and who we're going. To
i'm communicating with the production, Staff i'm communicating with the co,
host And i'm taking notes on things and trying to

(01:00:46):
make sure that the people who call in get their
fair shot at representing their. Case but my, god the
inability of some people to answer a very basic yes
or no question after having been asked three or four.
TIMES i don't care if somebody Thinks i'm a dick
at that, point BECAUSE i think they're a dick for

(01:01:06):
continually wasting my.

Speaker 3 (01:01:07):
Time you're still In texas under the shadow Of Greg? Abbott,
yeah how you doing down?

Speaker 2 (01:01:15):
There probably trying to.

Speaker 3 (01:01:18):
Move we've been talking about.

Speaker 2 (01:01:21):
It where do we?

Speaker 3 (01:01:23):
Go what can we? Afford what are the logistics of
selling everything that we know to the, House and do
we stay in The states and go to a more
of a blue dot or do we just get out
of here and maybe return WHEN i don't even know
when every. DAY i THINK i can't get that much

(01:01:45):
worse than. NOW i just think there's no, bottom like
there's no, bottom AND i think maybe a ticket out
would be a ticket. OUT i, Mean i'm not, Proud
i'm not married to the. Flag i'm not one of
those people that thinks were better than everybody. Else in,
FACT i think in many fronts were a hell of
a lot. Worse there are greener. Pastures we fantasize about, It, Matt.

Speaker 2 (01:02:08):
I'm so our mine And ardent situation is a little.
Different first of, all the government is actively trying to
label us domestic terrorists merely because she's trends and we
support trans rates that that's a weird place to live.

(01:02:30):
In LIKE i don't currently have a, Passport so somebody asked, me, like,
oh why why aren't you going To Baha. Khan, WELL
i was invited to the First Boha, kon BUT i
got ill and couldn't. Go and NOW i don't have a,
passport AND i wasn't going to renew my passport because
my partner can't get a passport because of their rules.
Changes and we also have a reptile business we work

(01:02:55):
with nineteen or twenty species of snakes in about some
are around twelve species of, lizards and so we keep
and breed, them and that means we also keep and
breed the various rodents and things that go along with,
that and we love doing, it and we sell some
of them off as, pets the majority of myself as.
Pets we are currently downsizing the collection in because if

(01:03:21):
we had to run right, now hundreds of animals would just.
Die like if we had a, round hundreds of animals
would just. Die i'd find somebody to come in and
help them and redistribute. Them but we love doing, this
and right now we are looking At illinois And minnesota

(01:03:43):
as two places that have seemingly decent, laws decent, governors
decent protections both for the godless, heathens for THE lgbtq,
community and for reptile. Keepers there's an association called us
rc US, ark which is The United States association Of Reptile,

(01:04:05):
keepers and they are essentially the lobbyists that we pay
because what happens is people who are afraid and don't
understand snakes are, like, OH i don't want people shouldn't
be allowed to have those as, pets and instead of
creating a black, list which is you're allowed to have
all of them except for this very narrow. Group some

(01:04:28):
of them are trying to create a white list where
you're not allowed to have any exotic reptiles except for
the ones we specifically, list and that is as incredibly.
Impractical it's the same reason we don't, list, like, say
you have no freedoms in our nation except for the
ones we. List, well how do you list the freedom

(01:04:48):
to give yourselves? Freedom you can't even get started on
a list like. That, instead you should have every freedom
and then you limit freedoms for really good. Reasons, similarly
you should be allowed to, have you, know keep whatever
reptiles you would, like but you limit them for good.
Reasons for, example this. One keeping it in captivity is.

(01:05:10):
Cruel this, one it's destructive to the habitat to potentially
even get them in order to get domesticated. Varieties there's
The florida thing with The burmese. Pythons they think they
want to blame that on irresponsible pet, owners but it.
Wasn't it was a hurricane that took out a breeding,
facility and that's why There's burmese pythons all over the.
Everglades it makes sense to hunt them, down to capture

(01:05:35):
them all those, Things but we take all those things into,
account and at the end of the, day we may
not get any of, that and we may have to
find a way for one or both of us to
leave the. Country and it really bugs, me not Because i'm,
jingoistic not Because i'm an eight year veteran of The

(01:05:57):
United states, military and it's embarrassing to me to Walk
trump try to outlaw flag burning BECAUSE i love what
The constitution should be when it's being followed and forced and,
protected and it's not being any of those. Things and
so it's every day it's getting closer To, okay what

(01:06:17):
AM i staying?

Speaker 3 (01:06:18):
For one last break and a lot more to come
as we speak with fellow Activist Matt. Delahunty after, this
thank you so much for. LISTENING i continue my conversation

(01:06:40):
With Matt, delahunty host Of Atheist debates And The Hang
up and a whole bunch of other broadcasts where he
is seen and heard as a. Guest he joins me,
here total tone, change but not a subject. Change. Reptiles they're,
Amazing they're they're. WONDERFUL i know that human. Beings And

(01:07:03):
i've written about human beings and our evolve tendency to
flip out in many, ways about arachnids and, reptiles and you,
know there are roots to. That but having overcome, That
i've come to really see how amazing these snakes. Are
and they're lovely and they're. BEAUTIFUL i know sometimes they
can be. Dangerous do snakes have? Personalities? Though it's not

(01:07:25):
like you've got a, dog an a cat and faret
and come, on, really, Really.

Speaker 2 (01:07:31):
Matt they're not quite the. Same most of them aren't
looking for. Attention they're they're Not they're not gonna hug.
YOU i, mean don't be wrong to hang on to
you and stuff like. That for, example we have two
green forest, dragons one of which will walk out nice and,

(01:07:53):
slow sit on your, shoulder sit up on your. Head,
basically birds are reps and these green forest dragul lizards
are basically like. Parrots we have two of. Them one
of them just wants to run around all over the place,
NonStop does not want to sit. Still you've got to
chase it. Around it's it's nice and. Friendly some of

(01:08:16):
the reptiles that we have definitely recognize the difference between
me And, arden and they will definitely recognize the difference
between us and other. People but it's not like they're ever, like,
oh come play with. Me it's they'll put up with,
it and you, know they don't feel threatened or defensive
others LIKE i have a couple Of kenyan zebra skinks

(01:08:39):
that are you will almost never see them unless you
go lifting up a hind because they want nothing to
do with any of. Us so they have, personalities they're
just not you, Know arden has a new pet effective,
yesterday and we breed rats my and. Asfs asfs Are

(01:09:02):
african soft. Furs they're a little rodent THAT i kid you.
Not they're appropriately. Named they're one of the softest things
out there and we tend to breed them primarily as
food for the, reptiles but you can't help falling in
love with some of. Them and so, Yesterday monday is

(01:09:26):
Rodent day for. Us it's where we clean out all
the rat enclosures every single. Week And arden came across
a little gray and white rat that does not have a,
tail and so it looks a little more like a.
Hamster and we're out there working in the garage and these.

(01:09:48):
Are they're. Sweet they're incredibly. CLEAN i mean it's shocking
people think, about, oh filthy rats in the. Plague, no,
no they're stupid. Clean they're probably one of the cleanest
animals in the whole house us included at how fastidious
they are because they have nothing else to. Do they
sit around in those bins and they lick each other
clean and uh it's. Great, WELL i wish you guys

(01:10:15):
could see her face because we're out there working And
i'm spraying out tubs and cleaning up and she comes
out and she, GOES i love. Him and so now she's.
Buying she bought a bonding. Bag it should be here.
TOMORROW i think.

Speaker 3 (01:10:35):
This sounds vaguely naughty in another, context but go.

Speaker 2 (01:10:38):
Ahead it's like a little side purse that the rat
can basically hang out in while you're doing your. Workday
i'm not doing, it but you know, what that thing's
really cute and she likes, it so why.

Speaker 3 (01:10:54):
Not connection comes in many? Forms all? Right, well you,
KNOW i see Rn. Rad he's got this damn snake
that he puts around his neck and he takes to
every restaurant in Freaking. Texas, okay, Well i've got a
cat who is lovely and loves me and purrs and
snoggles and all that. Stuff but if he is at
any point, overstimulated like IF i pet him at the

(01:11:15):
wrong spot or for too, long he could send me
to the. Hospital, Right he's. Crazy and So i'm, thinking
you got a snake around your neck at some, point
don't they get pissed and then you got fangs and
you've got strangulation and all these horror. Stories And i'm
telling myself and my, skull you don't worry about, that.

Speaker 2 (01:11:36):
No because first of, all none of the snakes That
arn puts around his, neck or THAT i, have or
THAT i put her on my, eck none of them have.
Fangs none of them are. Venomous they some of them
do have some teeth that could rip and. Tear and you,
Know orang's been bit and had stitches. BEFORE i only
have a couple of snakes that could seriously do like

(01:11:59):
causing these some stitches. Arm but you get used to
reading their body, language and snakes Are it's it's pretty
much a universal truth that snakes are never. Aggressive they
are either it's either a food response or they're. Defensive
they're they're, scared and so if you're careful and you

(01:12:21):
need to read candle like for, EXAMPLE i have two
snakes down in that right over there that are the
exact same. Species they Are woma aspadats ramsey. Eye the
male has only bit me once, accidentally and it was
entirely my fault BECAUSE i was trying to unwind him
from around my wrist to put him back in AND

(01:12:41):
i grabbed right near the head and he just swiped his.
Head he wasn't even trying to bite. Me he just
wiped and just grazed my. Thumb his girlfriend is. Nuts his,
Girlfriend i'm. Repeating i'm working with her frequently to get
her used to being, handed because when we first got,

(01:13:02):
her you could not touch her or pick her up
without her latching onto your thumb and staying there for ten.
Minutes we tried alcohol like fireball and things like that
that we're supposed to get her let. Go she would
not let, Go SO i had to excuse. ME i
had to handle her with a glove for a. While

(01:13:23):
i've got A i got a welding glove up, there
And i'll pull her out with. THAT i don't hand
her to. ANYBODY i don't let ANY i don't take her.
OUT i don't take her. Out we don't tend to
take our snakes out in public too often. Anyway BUT
i have a third woma of that species that is

(01:13:43):
genuinely the friendliest snake in the, collection AND i would
hand it to a, toddler and the toddler could put
the snake's head in its, mouth AND i have no
fear that this snake would react at. All it's it's
it just it does not. Care it reminds me a
little bit of some really big cobras THAT i. WATCH

(01:14:06):
i would never do. THIS i don't recommend. It leave them,
Alone BUT i know guys who have pet cobras and
who free handle. Them and because snakes aren't, aggressive that
cobra doesn't. Care it's in. Charge nothing is a threat to,
it and it's got no reason to bite. Anybody and
so WHILE i would never handle a cobra like, THAT

(01:14:28):
i do have a false water cobra which isn't a,
cobra And i'll handle out all day. Long and it's technically,
venomous but it's venomous like a bee is. Venomous it
would have to bite on me and chew on me
for quite a while to get me to swell up
a little, bit and instead you just learn. There you,
Know it's like if you go up to a. Dog
you don't walk up to a strange dog and stick

(01:14:49):
your head and it's. Kennel and you don't walk up
to a strange dog and just grab it by the.
Scruff you not if you're trying to do, anything but you,
know you put your hand, Out you let the dog
or the snake come up to you and figure. Out
it's the same. Thing you learn how people. Act it's
like you do with callers on. Shows you figure out
who AM i dealing?

Speaker 3 (01:15:08):
WITH i think what scarred? ME i can't Believe i'm
telling you, This BUT i have you seen The jackass,
Movies because in one of The jackass, movies the guy
took his penis and he turned, it he put a
mouse costume on, it and he stuck it through a
hole into a reptile. ENCLOSURE i can't defend. IT i

(01:15:34):
cannot defend The jackass. Movies like NORMALLY i don't go
for WHAT i would call potty. Humor it just doesn't
resonate for some. Reason The jackass films reduced me to.
Tears i'm laughing so. Hard and this guy wrapped his
penis in white, tape and he put a, mouse, eyes,
ears and a little nose on, it and he stuck
it in a reptile enclosure and dangled it around until

(01:15:57):
his penis was bitten by the. Snake and perhaps that's
part of the reason That i'm having some. Issues i'm scart,
Emotionally so that's.

Speaker 2 (01:16:07):
So first of, all sometimes it's hard to get snakes
to eat in captivity to begin. With like we fed
yesterday and there were three snakes over in the rack
off to my right that didn't eat at, All so
they had a rat in with them and just left.
IT i had to go back and pick it up
and throw it. AWAY i don't know Why i'm so

(01:16:30):
a mouse costume doesn't smell like a, mouse so it
has to just be. Heat and a lot of the snakes,
have you, know the ability to sense. Heat but it's,
LIKE i want to know what kind of snake it,
was because there are some snakes that if if you
wrapped your penis in did you say it was tape or?

Speaker 3 (01:16:52):
Something it looked like it. Was you, know that white
medical tape it looks like it was wrapped all the
way up and then it was the deck with.

Speaker 2 (01:17:00):
The bandage on beforehand because they knew what was going to.
Happen but almost every snake in my, collection if you
were to wrap your finger In gau's, bandage only three
of them would cause you any kind of. Harm and
it's because they have their big snakes with a really

(01:17:20):
big bite. Force And i've got. It i've got an
eight Foot bredel's python Named void that is fairly new to,
us and it's huge and. Overweight huge, too but really.
Sweet but she could do some. Damage one of my
two krebows could do some, damage but it'd be more

(01:17:41):
like crushing damage because the, BANDAGES i, mean their bite
force is, big but the teeth aren't a big. Deal
most of my snakes have teeth that are curved in
and it's too keep moving the rodent and stuff into
the gut because they don't have, hands you, know get
to hold it or tear. It you're going to swallow it,

(01:18:02):
all so you have your teeth constantly moving it back
towards your.

Speaker 3 (01:18:05):
Stomach i'm going to just shake my head until that
image goes. Away matt. Delahunty any final thoughts before we
wrap it. UP i know we mentioned the. HOLIDAYS i
know we're talking about Trump, istan we're talking about the
culture at, large we're talking. Debates anything else that's been
on your radar that you want to sort of mention

(01:18:26):
before we wrap it.

Speaker 2 (01:18:27):
Up, WELL i, Mean i'm, nervous and there was a
period of. TIME i Remember Andrew sidel AND i were
sitting around a couple of years, ago and it was
the first time the words civil war were said on

(01:18:48):
any program THAT i did as a seemingly not unrealistic
possibility about where the world might be. Heading and as
we started talking about, IT i just REMEMBER i remember
the moment, vividly AND i was, Like, Oh, andrew don't say,

(01:19:08):
that don't say, that don't say, that because he's one
of the people THAT i trust the most in their,
analysis and he's been more right when other people would
say similar things THAN i thought they were exaggerating and
reaching about what was going to happen with The Supreme
court and what was going to happen With project twenty twenty,

(01:19:33):
five and what was likely going to. Happen he's been,
right AND i remember when he said that my heart
sank BECAUSE i was, like he's right so, often please
don't let him be right about. This and yet The
president Of, peace who had supposedly stopped eight or nine

(01:19:54):
wars that we can't Find heidner Hair of hasn't Fixed,
gaza despite claims and attempts to the, contrary hasn't Fixed
ukraine and is breaking the country THAT i live in
to the point Where americans are more divided than. Ever
New York city just elected a Socialist muslim thirty four year.

(01:20:21):
OLD i think as it's, mayor the mayor of the,
biggest the most complicated city to be mayor, of probably
in the. World the mayor Of New York city has
a bigger, budget more people under his management than the
governors of many. States TO i don't have the. Numbers

(01:20:42):
i'm Just i'm pulling that right out of my head
just as a. Guest that's the world we're living, in
and it makes me both optimistic and. Terrified Because trump's
cabinet includes doctor Memot, oz who's also A, Muslim nobody
seems to care about, that yet they're panicking About. Mamdani

(01:21:05):
then you Have Maddi. Hassan those are my two Favorite
muslims on the. Planet how weird that the atheist debater
has Favorite muslims and tends to agree with these Two
muslims on all kinds of, stuff while absolutely not agreeing
with Other muslims Like Daniel, ykikichu Who i've, debated who

(01:21:25):
thinks it's okay to sexually assault toddlers if they have precocious.
Puberty AND i think the perspective that that gives me
is that we are constantly seemingly hearing in the verge
of societal, collapse and yet the capacity for some human

(01:21:49):
beings to rise, above to see past, differences to focus
on the goals and the ideas that can benefit all
of us seems. Indefatigable but it's wild to me that

(01:22:10):
you can be in this despondent place and, oh we're
looking to move and are we looking to move out
of the? State are we looking to move out of the?
Country and we you, know how's this going to? Happen
what's going on? Here and will we even have this? Right,
well we have that, right and everything can just be
H and then there are brief flickers that hope isn't
gone and that sanity might eventually went. Out So i'm

(01:22:34):
not ready to give up. Yet BUT i have been
closer in the last year to giving up on virtually
everything than ever in my entire, life and that is.
Terrifying and the only thing that keeps me going is
the fact that it hasn't beaten me down, yet and

(01:22:57):
that there are other people in the exact same, boat
expressing the exact same feelings and not ready to give up.
Either and so how CAN i with twenty three buckets
of privilege give up now and not use that to
try to help the people who don't have as?

Speaker 3 (01:23:13):
MUCH a lot of PEOPLE i think are lined up
there and they fight. Along sign you, Man how do
people find you and your work before we let you? Go?

Speaker 2 (01:23:22):
Oh i'm on. YouTube you can look UP. Mattl honey on,
YouTube San's deity and also the line network that's a
bulk of At patreon dot. COM i think it's slash
mattl on. You how DO i forget my Own patreon?

Speaker 3 (01:23:38):
Thing fundraising must be a joy at your place because
all the money may or may not go to your.

Speaker 2 (01:23:44):
CHANNEL i am terrible At i'm fine raising money for.
Others so It's patreon dot com slash atheist. Debates there we.
GO i am great at raising money for other. People
as a matter of, FACT i have a tattoo on
my leg of one of your, drawing and in a
couple of, weeks probably after the first of the, Year

(01:24:06):
i'm going to be getting another tattoo of another. Drawing
this is one That adelin did for The Secular Student allance,
fundraiser and let me just say it's going to beat
yours out because it's a biblically accurate zerbo with lots of,
eyes AND i Just i'm so happy about.

Speaker 3 (01:24:28):
IT i must see this when it's. Done, Matt it's
always good to Hang thanks for spending ninety minutes just
going through whatever subject popped. Up And i'm sure our
paths will cross on the. Line they co host just
every couple of months or so, together So i'm Sure
i'll cross paths. There, okay if.

Speaker 2 (01:24:45):
You didn't play so much tennis on Like, wednesdays you
could come do a hang up with me. Sometimes just have.

Speaker 3 (01:24:50):
Your people pull my. People If i'm, Free i'll be.
There we'll catch you later.

Speaker 2 (01:24:53):
On, well enjoy your. Holidays thanks for having me on.

Speaker 1 (01:24:56):
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