Aptos is Crushing Transaction Times (Here's Why) with Ash Pampati

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:04):
Hey, folks, we're recording at chain links smart Con event
and joining me is Ashpompati, who is the head of
ecosystem at app Toss.

Speaker 2 (00:11):
Ash.

Speaker 1 (00:11):
Great to be doing this in person with you, man.

Speaker 2 (00:13):
I can't believe I get to do it again.

Speaker 1 (00:14):
Tony, Yeah, we spoke earlier this year. Lots of great
things happening with ap toss. But for the folks who
don't know you, tell us a bit about yourself in ap.

Speaker 2 (00:22):
Toss one hundred percent. So ap toss was actually a
blockchain that was incubated at Meta to move value across
a billion user super ap economy. It's spun out and
has been in market for about three years and since
then has been a leading blockchain and driving stable coin
movement DeFi and now investing in infrastructure bring the next

(00:45):
billion user apps on chain now.

Speaker 1 (00:47):
One of the great features of ap tooss it's super fast.
How are you guys able to achieve this speed?

Speaker 2 (00:53):
So I think it goes back to what I said before,
which was the technical thesis around what a blockchain needs
to do was always built from a first principle's perspective
that it needs to support metas billion user app economy
out of the box, speed was a non negotiable, but
also security which came with it move the smart contract
programming languages. I think we've both seen several hacks in

(01:17):
market over the years, which is maybe the cost of
business of being in this space. But for the technical
team at that firm where it was originated, that was
a non negotiable. In order to move billions and trillions
of transactions across the world, you needed a premier security language.
So embedded within app toss is to move smart contract
programming language, so not only cheap, highly secure.

Speaker 1 (01:40):
Yeah, and you know, as far as usability and use cases,
I read recently that stable Flow integrated app toss and
that's going to allow put a transfer of more stable coins.
Tell us a bit about that. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:52):
I think that was an amazing launch and I think
part of an example of how Bottom's up technical thesis
driven building can actually reduce friction. I believe on that
one it was through an integration through not only ap toss,
but near and through the intense network. With that, I
think it's natural in terms of stable coins finding the

(02:14):
best path and the most efficient path, and smart users
making that as a default choice. Even though AP toss
is less mature as an ecosystem, especially with stable coin
integration versus some of the legacy players. We've already seen
unbound growth, which tells us that smart users, when they
have a dollar on X chain versus Y chain, the

(02:35):
one that's faster and more efficient and secure, they will
default choose. And so that is a huge signal for us,
and we're going to push a lot by multiples in
terms of growing that usage.

Speaker 1 (02:44):
I also recently read that Calshi is now supporting aptoss's
USDC native USDC and the apt token.

Speaker 2 (02:53):
Yeah. Well, so, I think one thing from a foundation perspective,
or a foundation that's supporting a permissionless network like aptoss,
is to make sure that users can access assets on
your network as well as stable coins on your network,
no matter where they are.

Speaker 1 (03:08):
Right.

Speaker 2 (03:09):
So you know, we knew. I think last time we
talked about NFTs, NFTs evolved into meme coins. Meme coins
are evolving into prediction markets. So for us, our goal
as a foundation is to make sure where ubiquitous acrosshol
services and culsh is an amazing platform.

Speaker 1 (03:24):
You use the word ubiquitous, and that's where blockchain has
to go. Right where it's running through the rails, through
the markets, the financial system, pop culture, society. But people
don't necessarily need to know, just if they are sophisticated
enough to know, Hey, I can choose the aptass blockchain,
but the idea of speed and usability is the key, right,
I completely agree.

Speaker 2 (03:44):
You know, I think we're kind of in our middle
child phase, you know, where we look a little funky.
We kind of like music we probably won't like for
a long time. Sure, and we're very tribal. But I
think when we talk about an everyday consumer, right, whether
it be your wife or my father, they don't have
time to think about this stuff or even subscribe to
a quote unquote technical religion.

Speaker 1 (04:04):
Right.

Speaker 2 (04:05):
They want something that is usable, they want something that
is reliable, and they want something that either gives them value,
make them money, or save them time. And so I
think that's where applications built on blockchains will need to
head towards. And we're already seeing that with founders looking
to build now, which look very different than founders who
wanted to start building in twenty twenty, which look different

(04:26):
than twenty seventeen. These are founders who have scaled enterprise
and consumer businesses should come from traditional tech backgrounds who
are ready to make their foray into entrepreneurship, and for them,
they look at scaling businesses as an outcome. And so
I think we're starting to see that start to graduate
a bit.

Speaker 1 (04:47):
Yeah, you're right. You know, I look back at twenty
twenty eight and I been here since twenty sixteen, and
the amount of adoption we're seeing. You know, there's once
the okay, crypto native firms are building technologies, but now
TRADFI traditional tech companies if you want to call them,
that are now coming in. And on that note, I
read that Indian telecom giant Reliance Geo is partnering with apptoss.

(05:09):
Tell us about that.

Speaker 2 (05:10):
Yeah, so you know, these are the kinds of efforts
that take a lot of time. When you think about
the scale of a company like Reliance Geo, the biggest
telco provider and not only in India but in the world,
And when you think about the amount of foresight a
firm like that and the executives within the firm have
to have to believe in Web three technology. You have

(05:32):
to ask the question of what is the actual urgency
behind it? And business need sure, and the business need
is Web three at its core. Not only is it
better rails for trading or moving a dollar, but for retention. Yeah,
which completely shifts the advertising market, which is heading towards
a trillion dollar year market by twenty thirty. Wow, some

(05:52):
of us don't realize that when you compare it against
trading fees on chain. Sure, right, So they're a firm
that understand. Now the next question is once you understand
that what technology can actually support your billion plus user
use case? You can't just use any sort of SaaS
rights to be reliable. Your users can't have a second

(06:13):
of disruption otherwise they'll churn out, which affects your business absolutely.
Supercent users churn out, you affect your business big time.
And so naturally they came to aptos and said, well,
you guys are the best and fastest and you can
actually support this, so let's work together.

Speaker 1 (06:29):
That's pretty incredible. That's a big one. I mean, the
largest heelcom company. And what are you seeing as far
as the vision that these companies have. Are they looking
to use blockchain in different ways, create reward tokens or
like you mentioned, keeping customers and how are you thinking
about it? And I don't know if you can share

(06:51):
the details here, but as much as you.

Speaker 2 (06:52):
Can, yeah, I mean I can share how they're thinking
about it, because I used to work at a company
that thought about this like YouTube a lot, right, which
is how do you in line incentives with your users
in the most efficient and economical way that's value add
for your business and also value add for their time spent.
I think right now we've had pretty archaic ways of

(07:13):
doing this. Advertising monetizing eyeballs, creating so much friction so
you can convert them to subscription. Then they're paying subscription
and they question, why do I have to pay this?
I don't even use this anymore. I have ten different subscriptions.
So I think advertised like large companies with a swath
of loyalists but also a broad consumer base. Think I'll

(07:34):
see this about to happen In terms of fragmentation, the
ad models isn't going to work. CPMs are going to
go down. Big brand advertisers are going to less ROI
because of dilution. Subscription people are overindated with subscription service.
They literally cannot afford it, and so they say there
must be a better way. So I think for them,
they're looking at blockchain and web three incentives as a

(07:56):
layer to rechange advertising, sure more stickiness with the user,
and put more money in their pocket by using the
app micro transactions for subscription services. So imagine if I
could pay ten cents or a penny every time I
watch versus have a choice of do I pay twenty
bucks on Amazon Prime foret?

Speaker 1 (08:17):
Yeah?

Speaker 2 (08:18):
Right? And so I think this is how they're thinking
in terms of the smart businesses. And the other thing
I would say is we still have not yet seen
the Fortune fifty companies. The C level execs in their
boardroom say what about crypto alongside AI? And that I
think will start to happen very quickly, especially as things
like the Genius Act being passed and the Clarity Act.

(08:40):
Once those things happen, every Fortune and fifty firm will
not only say in their boardroom what are we doing
with AI? They will say what are we doing with crypto?

Speaker 1 (08:50):
And speaking of Fortune and fifty, I don't know black
Rock fits in this. So they're king of the hill
in the finance world in many ways. They expanded their
Biddle money market tokenized money market fund on app toss
tell us about that what that means for a chain
like app TOSK.

Speaker 2 (09:05):
So I think one thing with our history obviously based
on how we originated, but the technical principles that we
put around the network on security, the emphasis that naturally
inclines towards institutions right. Institutions want trust, they want to
know there's a team behind the network that's well funded,
that in perpetuity can support the needs of a network,

(09:27):
and they want to make sure there's a high level
of security. On one hand, you could look us look
at us as a controversial bet for institutions because we're
not eth we're not Salana, we're moved, we're a new
ecosystem entirely. On the other hand, you could look at
them as saying that's the bar for innovation that needs
to happen for us to actually invest in networks. Sure,

(09:47):
So I think with the Biddle Fund, who's been a
long time partner with us, it's been incredible to work
with them, and they truly believe in the mission on
ap toss.

Speaker 1 (09:55):
You, I think addressed this in our interview earlier this year.
But I want to make sure folks are aware of
how the building is happening on app toss. Is it
a layer two is it subnets? Like how can Blackrock
or somebody else if they want to create a private
aspect on app tooss, how can they do that?

Speaker 2 (10:13):
So, you know, when we think about RWA's, it's a
pretty broad term, right. It can include stable coins, it
could choose credit products, it can include tokenized funds, and
so I think for us we have coverage across all
those things. What we are excited to see is the
real world utilization of those assets. We're already seeing it
with stable coins, We're already seeing it with private credit

(10:35):
markets where credit is being extended by protocols, to emerging
markets for micro loans, or we even just had a
new company, Creator five come to ap toss who raise
fifty million in debt financing to help loan creators and
artists wow stables so that they can create and not
get locked into bad distribution deals. I need to contact them, Well,
I'll send, I'll send, I'll send to you them. They're

(10:57):
backed by the biggest MCNs and everything. Oh, so we're
seeing like tremendous utilization and opportunity and specific sectors of RWA's,
and I think there's more to come outside of that
as well.

Speaker 1 (11:10):
What do you think about the tokenization race that's happening
for stocks, gold, I'm hearing real estate and even like
you know, somebody's money market, funds and bonds and so forth,
and what do you see that market by twenty thirty or.

Speaker 2 (11:24):
So, you know, I think I see it as like
the way I look at it is RWA's minus stables
are where stables were at three years ago today, And
so it's still the concept of tokenization in terms of
should I token this, what's the value of tokenizing this?
And then what's the roadmap? Right, yeah, what does it
look like in DeFi across ecosystems? And so I think

(11:47):
for us, that's how we want to push forward with
those folks. So by twenty thirty, I look at is
you know, a user can go collaterize QYZ alone. It's
something that they're used to and tradify, sure, and go
use that money, send that money somewhere in an instant
you know, trade it they have if they're on the

(12:10):
risk curve. Sure, that's kind of where I see it.
So I see tokenization as having unlimited upper bound, but
it will be driven by the real world utilization from
everyday users.

Speaker 1 (12:20):
Sure. And then we got to figure out if there's
a market for as certain assets. Right, is there liquidity?
Even if you tokenize something, is there a market is
your demand for it?

Speaker 2 (12:30):
Yeah? And there's so many different use cases, right, there's
there's borrow, lend what assets are good for that? There's trading,
there's high risk curve trading. You know, there's different types
of assets that I think work. And I think crypto
luckily has supercomposability where you quickly learn once in assets
in market, what has product market fit or signal, unlike

(12:51):
more traditional standards where there's tons of bureaucratic red tape
to actually get something live. So I think with this
administration and their philosophy and crypto and technology, we at
large we're going to learn very soon. And I'm very
excited for institutions to come on board.

Speaker 1 (13:06):
Speaking of this administration, a lot of people are chomping
at the bit to get the Market Structure bill pass.
We know we have the government shut down now they're
going to eventually open up. Are you thinking we might
get it passed by December or Q one of twenty
twenty six.

Speaker 2 (13:20):
You know, I'm not a macroeconomist. I'm also not a
political commentator. But what I would say is this administration
has shown pretty clearly two things. One they want America
to be the center of techno optimism, sure, and number two,
they believe crypto are better financial rails. Yeah, and so
I think with those two things in consideration, you will

(13:42):
see high urgency to get those things done. And I
think it's up to the rest of us to make
sure we're driving and building products to drive adoption.

Speaker 1 (13:50):
Oh, for sure, we covered quite a few items of
APTOSK getting adoption. Is there anything else you want to highlight?
And maybe you can tell us a bit about what's on
your road map.

Speaker 2 (13:59):
Yeah, I think we can combine the two. Sure. So
one thing that has been very exciting to see, albeit
not having the best results for people currently subscribed to
those products and services, is we have spent this year
focused on a few things. Number one, we believe exchanges

(14:19):
should be fully decentralized and users should be able to
trust them. We also believe the blockchain to support that
paradigm needs to be as fast as a centralized exchange.

Speaker 1 (14:30):
Sure.

Speaker 2 (14:30):
So, two things have happened. Number One, we've pushed our
blockchain latency, which is basically the lagant between something deciding
to happen sure down to sixty five milliseconds. Finance is
at five milliseconds, So we are basically encroaching towards having
the same latency as a centralized exchange. Wow. On top
of that will be built this company called Decibel, which

(14:53):
is a fully decentralized exchange ultimate transparency. You can perpose trade,
you can spot trade, you can even do multi asset collateral,
and so that's really exciting. Now why is that exciting? Well,
Number one, there's tons of purpose exchanges in market, but
we think the pie is so much bigger than that,
especially when you add additional services. Number two, you saw

(15:15):
Black Friday, our version of Black Friday. What happens when
you have opaqueness in centralized entities, Users get punished at
the end of the day. So that is a huge
validation for us that the market needs trusted and reliable
exchanges that are fully decentralized. The second piece is infrastructure.
You know, the greatest bottleneck to web thory adoption. Do

(15:35):
you know what it is? The on ramp data data.
Right now, data is a huge bottleneck to fully decentralized,
billion user scale apps running on chain. You dig deep
enough eventually every blockchain, every DAP uses a centralized cloud service.
That's one person with one button that can shut off

(15:58):
everything that owns your important asset, which is data. So
we're building Shelby. It's hitting dev net, a co build
with Jump Crypto that is essentially decentralized AWSGCP Azure, which
allows for Web three incentives. That is no middleman.

Speaker 1 (16:16):
That is so needed.

Speaker 2 (16:17):
I mean, I mean you saw with the recent events
AWS went down and then what happened right after Azure
went down. Yeah, so it's huge validation in the technical
roadmap and we're uniquely set up our firm to deliver
on that. Avery led production engineering at Meta for Libra DM,
but before that he was scaling systems for what's up

(16:38):
in Instagram. Anytime a new feature needed to be launched,
you know what, they'd call Avery. We got to make
sure this doesn't break. That's his whole team. So we
are building in the right direction and the market is
validating the need for these things.

Speaker 1 (16:50):
That's exciting. We're going to have to do an in
person interviewer at my studio downtown New York when that
is ready to go. I like that, and that is
so needed. What are you looking for most to in
twenty twenty six for the industry and so forth.

Speaker 2 (17:07):
I love the institutional narrative right now. What I believe,
as I believe is true in any technological sector, when
institutions get excited, is we need hardcore innovation, the aha
magic moments that AI has had for the last two years. Sure,
and we need immense consumer adoption and innovation to compound

(17:30):
upon this institutional interest. And so for me, I'm very
excited about seeing apps that may not be so relevant
as they are today but tomorrow start to focus more
on how are we bringing commerce on chain, advertising, how
are we changing subscription, how are we changing media and entertainment,

(17:51):
And so I believe we'll probably see that trending towards
twenty twenty seven.

Speaker 1 (17:56):
That is another item that I am really looking forward
to as well, because to your point, you know, I
go through my normal Web two experience. Where's blockchain? Where
where's the integration? I know it's a work in progress,
but I haven't seen it yet. You know, you're mentioning
like micro transactions and microfez, where is that? You know?
So sounds like you guys are ahead of the curve

(18:17):
working on it.

Speaker 2 (18:18):
It's in our DNA. We've always believed this in the
timing couldn't be better for us.

Speaker 1 (18:22):
Ash, great stuff, looking forward to our next one. Appreciate
it and uh yeah man, great stuff happening at aptols.
Thank you for joining me.

Speaker 2 (18:29):
Thanks, great stuff happening at Thinking Crypto. Appreciate you man.

Speaker 1 (18:32):
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