Bitcoin & Crypto May Have Just Topped! with Mark Yusko

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
They just keep printing bad money and it eventually crowds
out the good money. Bitcoin is going to do reverse
Greshoms law. The good money will eventually crowd out all
the bad money. In a world where the white guys
decide what the interest rate is, that's not a free market.
That's market manipulation. You get a persistent theft of real

(00:22):
wealth from the masses to the few.

Speaker 2 (00:25):
They're all bending the knee. Vanguard capitulated JP Morgan's new intokenization,
City Banks talking about custody and launching its own stable coin.
Are we seeing the full capitulation here?

Speaker 1 (00:33):
Yes, But.

Speaker 2 (00:39):
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to learn more, visit the link in the description. Hey, folks,
welcome into the Thinking Crypto podcast. I'm your host, Tony
Edward and joining me today is Mark Usco, who is

(01:46):
the founder, CEO and CIO of Morgan Creek Capital Management. Mark,
great to see you, Great to see great to be
with you.

Speaker 1 (01:54):
It's been a little too long, so great to catch
up again and hope you had a good summer. And
now fall is fully engaged football season. And although I
was gonna say colder weather, but it's eighty one degrees
here in Chapel Hill today, so no cold weather yet.

Speaker 2 (02:08):
Yeah, it's eighty three here in New Jersey, so it
can't complain. And bitcoin hitting new all time highs. Mark
I figured I got to get you on to get
your perspective on everything that's happening. You know, what are
your thoughts on bitcoin hitting this new all time high
and then the outlook for Q four.

Speaker 1 (02:24):
I mean, look, there's an inevitability about bitcoin's price in
dollars or yen or euros or whatever you want to
price it in rising as countries devalue their fiat currency,
and the more they devalue, the higher the price. You know,
it's funny most of us talk about bitcoin in dollars,

(02:48):
that's our kind of reference point. But like if you
looked at bitcoin in Lira, it's been making all time
highs for years because the lira has literally devalued ninety
nine point nine percent, saything in Venezuela. So there is this,
you know, I call it home market myopia, where one

(03:11):
you think all the smart people are in your home market,
which is clearly not true. Two you think you dominate
every market, like you know, all the stocks are traded
in the United States. Well it's not actually true. I mean,
some of our stocks now are crazy valuations. So they
they you know, dwarf, you know, Nvidia dwarfs the entire
Japanese market in the MSCI World Index, I mean in

(03:32):
Spain and France, and so that can definitely happen. But
in digital assets, I think it's interesting. You know, you
got our president saying, oh, we want to be the
crypto capital of the world, and then the bitcoin is like, no, no,
we want to be the bitcoin capital of the world. Okay, fine,
but neither one is going to happen. Right, We're twenty
odd percent of global activity. You know, binances orders of magnitude,

(03:58):
bigger than coinbase's greatest coinbase and as great as Kraken
and Gemini and these other exchanges are. You know, finance
run circles around them on a global basis. So Tether
is this gigantic beast of a company. You know, we're
all excited about Circle, right, Circle goes public, great, goes
up to forty billion dollar market cap, fantastic, excited for

(04:21):
Jeremy and the crew. But I heard a stat that
Teather makes more every four days then Circle will make
in a year. Wow, you know, so what's that worth? Now?
Now they're trying to raise money? I heard, yeah, at
a five hundred billion dollar valuation, which would make it
the second largest bank by market cap in the world

(04:44):
behind JP Morgan. It's pretty impressive for a company with
like fifty employees. So that's a rambling, kind of strange
answer to your question about how to feel about the
all time I but it is a high, right, I mean,
one twenty six yesterday is higher than we've ever been.

(05:09):
But when you inflation adjust and you look at it
relative to how much devaluation has occurred and how much
M two has been created, and actually what gold prices
have done are actually not at a high now. I
think we will, we'll get there. And then the big
question on everybody's mind, and yesterday was interesting, you know,

(05:31):
October sixth, we're recording on the seventh. October sixth is
interesting in that if you look at the previous two cycles,
the seventeen cycle and the twenty one cycle, and now
the twenty five cycle. If you look at seventeen and
the twenty one, the time from cycle peak to low

(05:52):
is three hundred and sixty four days in both of them, precisely.
And then the time from cycle low to cycle high
is one and sixty four days, and so one thy
sixty four days from the previous low was yesterday. And
what's crazy is there's a guy and I wish I
remember his name, so give him credit. But I saw

(06:13):
there's this guy that tweeted in twenty twenty three, two
years ago that the simulation will be repeated and the
new high will occur on October sixth, and then we
head back down.

Speaker 2 (06:28):
That's pretty wild.

Speaker 1 (06:29):
Wow. Now there are a whole bunch of people like, no, no,
we're going to the moon by the end of the year.
I mean maybe maybe so anyway, lots of stuff talk about,
but mark is your base case still.

Speaker 2 (06:43):
I think you alluded to it. The currency devaluation that's
happening around the globe by central banks. That's driving asset
prices higher because as you mentioned, gold is ripping, you
got real estate ripping, even though the mortgage industry is
like flatline. And then you have the stock market going nuts.
So are all these assets moving with the liquid from
around the globe?

Speaker 1 (07:01):
One hundred percent of liquidity drives markets. One of my
favorite things to tweet. And at the end of the day,
this is money illusion. Right. Stocks are not at all
time hives, right. I mean, yes, nominally they are, and
you can't debate that, but in real terms, meaning if

(07:22):
you price them in anything other than you know, the
toilet paper, which is the US dollar or the yen
or the euro, which you're going to race to the
bottom to devalue if you priced it in anything solid,
pun intended like gold. Here's the crazy stat. Stocks are
down since nineteen hundred priced in gold. Wow, actually not

(07:48):
up now, but that doesn't count. Well, it kind of does.
And look, most of us don't feel it when things
are more expensive. Our rent is higher, are you know
the price of a hamburger is higher? You know, you're
up in New York, New Jersey. There's this place in

(08:08):
downtown New York where you know, they only take cash,
and there's a huge line and you get the privilege
of paying thirty dollars for a hamburger. And I went
once with one of my guys, and it was a
perfectly fine hamburger. But it wasn't like twenty times better,

(08:29):
you know, or ten times better than the other hamburgers
I've had. I'd probably prefer shakeshacks hamburger over that. But
that illusion is what's happening when inflation right, which robs
us of our wealth, and for most of our existence,

(08:49):
up until two thousand and nine, there was no alternative. Right,
you lived in the fiat world. You I everyone lived.
We lived in the Fiat world. Well, we tried to
save dollars, but the problem was in saving dollars if
we didn't put them at risk, like if we just

(09:10):
put them in cash, then every day they're stealing a
little bit back through this thing called inflation. And what's
really funny about inflation is the normal state of a productive,
innovative society is deflation, not inflation. What I mean when

(09:33):
you think about it, if you innovate, then you make
things better. Right, you're getting more for the same amount.
That's deflation or cheaper. Right, you can produce more like
the model t for it. We discover the assembly line,
and so cars started to go down in price. And

(09:54):
from seventeen seventy six, when we started as a republic
till nineteen thirteen, there was no such thing as inflation.
We had a persistent deflation now was interrupted by a
couple big wars and a depression like the depression of
eighteen It was like eighteen forty eight or something like
that was worse than the Great Depression. But no one

(10:16):
ever talks about it because it's too long ago. To remember.
So in nineteen thirteen the FED was created. What does
the FED do? Well, the FED artificially manipulates markets. So
free markets are prone to deflation because if I can compete,

(10:36):
Let's say there's some provider of a gooder service. If
I'm in a free market and I can compete against
that person, I'm going to try to win business by
maybe underpricing or making something better, both deflationary. Well, if
the market is not free, right, if there are barriers
or tariffs or restrictions or regulations, then you tend toward inflation. Well,

(11:02):
if you manipulate the price of money, meaning in a
free market, people would bid openly on the acceptable return
that they would take for safety. Right, someone said well
I need six percent. Someone will say, well I need
five and a half, I need five, I need four
and a half. And there's a natural market clearing price

(11:26):
for risk assets. Well, in a world where a bunch
of old white guys, I had to say it, but
an old white guys decide what the interest rate is,
that's not a free market. That's market manipulation. And so
in that environment you get a persistent theft and I
use the word intentionally of real wealth from the masses

(11:51):
to the few, so income and wealth generate income and
wealth ownership that divide becomes great, gater and greater and greater.
Today it's the highest it's ever been in history. And
I think it's interesting, Like, I understand why the people
in the club right to say it's a small club

(12:12):
and you ain't in it, right. I understand why the
people in the club want that. What I don't really
understand is why the rest of us don't pick up
the pitchforks literally at some point and say no, no, Moss,
Like we want open in free markets. We don't want
this manipulated market inflation. Like who convinced an entire population

(12:34):
of people that taking half of my purchasing power every
thirty years is a good thing? That makes no sense, right,
I mean, I worked hard for that money. And you know,
Jimmy Song, I'm sure you've probably even had him on
the podcast, but Jimmy and the cowboy Hat, and Jimmy
made an impression on me. I heard him speak, you know,

(12:54):
kind of around the same time we met back in
twenty eighteen, maybe twenty seventeen, and he said something very
profound that you know, people get really agitated when I
say it. But it's like he said, Look, if you
work for a salary, you're a slave. Everyone. Oh, you
can't use that word. That's a bad word. It's like, no,
think about it. You're a slave. Right, you get paid,

(13:17):
you put your money in savings, and then they take
it back from you if you don't spend it through
this thing called this stealth tax called inflation. Well, if
you work and get paid in bitcoin, you're no longer
a slave because your money actually appreciates. Now here's the thing.

(13:38):
Bitcoin didn't change. One bitcoin, one bitcoin, the bitcoin we
talked about seven years ago, and the bitcoin today, it's
the same thing. It's one bitcoin. The amount of dollars
you need from sixteen thousand to one hundred and twenty
six thousand, that's different, but it's still the same bitcoin.
So what changed was the money worse, not Bitcoin getting better. Now,

(14:02):
Bitcoin did get better. It's got better hash rate, it's
got more decentralization, it's all. It actually is better. The
network is better, and that's why the value of it increases.
But at the end of the day, is the fiat
that went down in value? And what's interesting about saving
in bitcoin versus saving in fiat if you save in bitcoin,

(14:24):
and again I'll give Jimmy full credit for this, he says,
you you actually unleashed the most powerful force in all
of human history, which is human creativity. Because if you
don't have to constantly be working and striving to preserve
the pursoning power of your money, and you your money

(14:46):
actually grows, you have some time to think, to create,
to maybe start a new business, right, maybe build a
new product. You know, you don't have to just do
this slave labor and get paid in this depreciating asset.
So again, long answer to an instant question, but it

(15:10):
to me, it all kind of weaves together in that
why bitcoin is such an important innovation, why the construct
of money is changing in it. Look, money is a

(15:31):
very unique thing. It's an asset that exists in the
absence of a liability, right, That's what money is. And
that basically the only thing that meets that criteria that
is used is gold. Silver meets that criteria. You know, copper,
you know, puka shells. There are a lot of things

(15:51):
that would meet that, but but the only one that's
been used for five thousand years roughly because of belief
and custom, is gold. But gold. You know, we've talked
about this before. Gold suffers from two problems. It's not
very portable, meaning it's really heavy, and you can't like
stuff it in your pocket a gold bar and walk through.

(16:11):
Actually you can walk through the radar detector, I mean
the metal detector because it's inert. But anyway, so gold
isn't very portable, and it's not very divisible. Like if
I had a bar and I wanted to break it
in half, I'm not strong enough. And even if I
could break it in half, I couldn't stuff it in
the computer and send it to you. You know, all
the bitcoin in the world fits right here now. I

(16:32):
don't have any on my phone. Don't sim swap me.
It's not worth it. I keep mine in cold storage.
In fact, I'm wearing my Chili Willy socks today for
bitcoin cold storage. The point is that it's also very divisible.
I can send you one one hundred millionth of a
bitcoin right there. That's a one satosha. I can send
you one satoshi for free, and that's better than the

(16:53):
current system. So it is this technological improvement that takes
old money, five thousand year money, into new age money.
For the next five thousand years. But it was says, well,
that's not money. Money is dollars and yeend in euros, like, no,
those aren't money, those are currency. And you know, JP
Morgan said it right, gold is money. Everything else is

(17:15):
just credit because they're backed by debt and sailor you
know can so oh, no, bitcoin is money, everything else. Okay, great,
but it's true, right, everything else is credit, everything else
is debt. Everything else lives in a world where governments
can print it. Now, in the old days, you literally
had to printing, press it and cut the paper and
fold them up and hand them out. Now you just

(17:38):
push a button and you create more ones than zeros.
Well that's just too easy. There's no proof of work, right,
which is you know, one of the great innovations of
a bitcoin. But anyway, I digress.

Speaker 2 (17:51):
So on that note mark, we see that the United
States has established a strategic bitcoin reserved or using the
bitcoin the confiscated from bad actors over the years. But
what's being discuss right now is how can they use
revenue neutral ways to buy bitcoin to add to the reserve.
So whether it's selling some of the goal reserve or
using the tariff revenue. What are your thoughts on that
and how that might play out?

Speaker 1 (18:11):
So one one caveat right, we actually don't have the
strategic bitcoin reserve, which would be awesome if we did.
What we have is the stockpile, the digital asset stockpile. Now,
why is there a difference. That's the distinction without difference. Well,
it's because you center Lumas and a couple others. We're

(18:31):
trying to get this strategic bitcoin reserve to get the
government to buy two hundred thousand bitcoin every year for
the next five years. And and it makes perfect sense,
right if you are a central bank and you have
the money layer. Right, the way the money layer works
is the central banks own gold. Sometimes they own other stuff,

(18:53):
like the Swiss central Bank. I shouldn't say this, but
isn't a real country. No, I'm just kidding around. I
mean they don't make stuff. I mean it's just like
a that it's like a it's a neutral place where
you hide your money in Swiss banks, So that's what
it is. But their central bank owns stocks and stuff
because it's not a real central bank. It's like a
private company that must to make money, so they buy stocks.

(19:17):
But real central banks like you know, the Central Bank
of the US or the Central Bank of China, the
Central Bank of Europe, although that was less real. They
buy gold and sometimes I buy euros or yan or
dollars or whatever, but mostly they buy gold. Well that's
the base layer of money. Then they issue debt to

(19:38):
create you know, their paper currency out of thin air.
That's called fiat. So in that environment we should think
about replacing gold with bitcoin. Makes it perfect sense or partially.
I mean I could go all the way. I mean
I don't need to go all the way. I mean

(19:59):
they they can coexist. But for me, I transition. I mean,
I get I have nothing against gold. It's it just
isn't as good as bitcoin, sure so, and it doesn't
mean gold is bad. But just like gold beat silver.
Remember in the early days, nineteen hundreds nineteen twenties, you

(20:20):
had things called silver certificates, Like if you had a
piece of paper money. It wasn't like today where it
says in God we trust and it's worth nothing. Like
if you gave that to the government, they give you nothing. Right,
you don't get gold, you don't get silver, you don't
get tax or seats, you don't get anything. You don't
get teriff revenue. You get nothing. It is just a

(20:42):
piece of paper to settle debts between private or public borrowers,
so it has no value. But in the old days
it was backed by silver, like every dollar you printed
had to have gold or silver in the vault that
if someone surrendered that money to you, you had to
give them the hard asset. That went out the window

(21:02):
in nineteen thirty three and then again in nineteen seventy one.
But gold nudged out silver, and silver nudged out bronze,
and bronze nudged out puka shells or stone wheels or
whatever it was in the early days thousands of years ago.
Because people have always wanted a medium of exchange. Right,
Let's say you grow chickens and I grow cows, carrying

(21:25):
our cows and chickens around with us all the time
so we can barter. That's a pain in the ass.
So let's have you know, you would print little tokens
with chickens on them, and I'd print little tokens with
cows on them, and we'd exchange those. But then how
do we know how much a chicken token is worth us?
A cow token sounds sounds like now right, everyone prints

(21:46):
thrown token, so it didn't really work. So then they said, well,
let's have one token and let's call it. You know,
your first one in China was called flying money because
literally it was made of paper and it's actually more linen.
But it would fly away in the wind, right because
it wasn't like you know, gold, it would not fly away.

(22:08):
That was the first one, and then the Dutch came
along with the dolar, and then we've copied that and
we made the dollar. So we have these these things
that we can we create them out of thin air,
and gold would be better than those as a store value,
but bitcoin is better than that. So to me, it's

(22:29):
logical and natural that all nations states should migrate to bitcoin,
not tomorrow, but over time. That makes sense to me.
You know, Murray Stall, who's right up there your neck
of the woods runs Horizon Kinetics used to have them
on the show sometime. He explained this way better than
I do. How you normally in the world, there's something

(22:50):
called Gresham's law where bad money crowds out good And
we've seen all the stories Venezuela, Turkey, you know, Zimbabwe.
You know, I have over there on my desk, a
one hundred trillion Zimbabwe dollar bill. Wow, right, and wouldn't
buy a loaf of bread? Right? One hundred trillion. And
they just keep printing bad money and it eventually crowds

(23:11):
out the good money, and the and the country goes
down the toilet. So that's Gresham's law. Well, Murray describes
Bitcoin is going to do reverse Gresham's law. The good
money will eventually crowd out all the bad money. And
even though gold is money and it's good money, bitcoin

(23:32):
should even crowd that out. So in the short term
I probably have a little bit of both, but over
long term it's Bitcoin. Governments like Fiat because governments are
run by a small number of individuals, right, Congressman, senators, politicians, presidents,
vice presidents, pretty small group those people. When they come

(23:53):
to power, they're usually not very rich. Occasionally someone's already rich,
but most of them actually aren't very rich. They're doing
and as public servant. By the end they're super rich. Yeah,
how's that happen? Like if you get paid one hundred
grand and you got to pay your bills, you're not
going to get rich that way, so you must be
getting rich some other way, well, it's the payola for

(24:15):
this project, or or hey, let's just print money and
you know, allocate it back to ourselves, like hey, I know,
we'll allow ourselves to buy companies before either the government
buys them or some big announcement happens, because you know,
it's just the committee and we're on the FDA, and
we know that something's going to get approved, so we'll

(24:35):
just buy the stock and it'll go up. That sucks,
but because most people can't do that. In fact, if
you do that in the normal world, you go to jail.
You do it in as politician, you know, as ms
Pelosi said, I was just part of my compensation, Mike,
Hell to the no. But all of that is to say,
the system is what the system is, and governments really

(24:55):
like FIAT, so they're going to fight the adoption, which
is why we don't have a strategic bitcoiners with. It's
like why we don't have the Epstein files. Well, why
is that? Well, because the people in office are in
the files, I mean, so so they're not going to
release them. I mean, and look, I don't really care

(25:16):
about all this stuff, but it is just kind of comical.
It's like, why won't you release these things? Are you joking? Right?
Because self incrimination, I don't have to do that, so
and it doesn't. I mean the last guy was in him,
and the guy before that, and the guy all before.
I mean, they're all in it. So this group of
people they like making themselves wealthy, and FIAT helps that,

(25:40):
whereas a bitcoin standard you know, to quote safety would
would not promote that. And so I understand why there's reticence.
I understand why. You know, Senator Lummus is great, and
she's you know, she's up there and she's talking about it,
and they're like patterner on the head saying like Cindy
lu who right, you know, setting her off to bed
with their glasses milk, you know, the grinchs like, no, no,

(26:02):
I'm not going to do that because because that hurts
my ability to keep getting rich. At the end of
the day, how would that ever change? Well, term limits,
maybe you go back to the old system where you
came for two years and then you went back to
your farm. You know, maybe two years is too short,

(26:22):
but you know, maybe four, maybe six. But lifelong politicians.

Speaker 2 (26:26):
Bad generational where for example, not to be an ageist
or anything, but the boomer a crowd.

Speaker 1 (26:33):
Oh you can be an agist. I'm a boomer and
the boomers are geniuses. And I don't mean that just
because I'm one, but they are geniuses, right, Because what
did boomers do? They created something called entitlements. What's an entitlement?
An entitlement is a promise you make to yourself that
you don't fund and you ask other people to pay for.

(26:57):
Who wouldn't vote for that, who wouldn't sign up for that?
So what did we do? We created a system that
rewards debt, real estate ownership, stock ownership, and it makes
promises to pay us old people. Right, So every day
in this country, ten thousand people turn sixty five, and

(27:20):
you know they start to become eligible to receive these
these benefits. Well, that created the inflation that led to
housing prices being now unaffordable for the average person, particularly
a young person. Okay, so I can't buy a house.
It's like you know, the you know, white house picket fence,

(27:41):
you know having kids. Now, this is bullshit, But they
tell you it's too expensive. It's not. It's just not.
I mean, yes it's expensive, and yes it's hard, but
do stuff this hard is good and it's the best
thing you could ever do. But some people are having
less kids and they're not buying the houses, and so
they're like, well, I I found my way out. I

(28:04):
can just down bitcoin. And it's actually not the craziest
thing because what bitcoin does is it it's like it's
like an anti matter machine. It sucks up all of
the grift and the graph and corruption and it energizes
it and it and it grows again. Bitcoin itself doesn't grow,

(28:28):
but the number it's it's there's that great picture U.
It's a so it's a big triangle like this and
it's green. Then there's a little triangle at the bottom,
which is bitcoin. So this is fiat and and it's
literally like a funnel. And eventually all that that capital
that's been created out of thin air, it just keeps

(28:49):
pressing down into bitcoin, and that bitcoin triangle is going
to keep growing. So you're right, there is this generation gap.
I mean, I joke all the time. My granddaughter, my
youngest granddaughter is three. She'll never have one of these, right,
She'll never have a leather wallet, She'll never have paper money.
She won't even know what paper money is. She'll laugh

(29:10):
at the idea, you picked up a dirty thing and
you hand it to somebody you know, silly, just tap
your wallet. So but the point there is that the
system is set up to, as you absolutely identified, to
take advantage of this digital divide. Right, Ask anyone over

(29:35):
thirty five, who's your broker? I don't know, Maryland s ubs? Why?
How much gold have? I don't know? Three four percent?
How much bitcoin? Yah? Zero? My god? Are you kidding me?
That's a Ponzi scheme? Haven't heard that? Peter Schiff guy?
Asked anyone under thirty five? Who's your broker? What's a broker?
I mean, I mean I got a Robinhood account?

Speaker 3 (29:57):
All right?

Speaker 1 (29:58):
How much goldie? Oh my god? Zero boomer rocks? Are
you kidding me? Haven't you heard that? Peter Schiff guy?
How much bigcoin you have? Don't want to talk about it?
Why not? Because it's a really big piece of my
net worth and I'm kind of embarrassed by it. So,
I mean, not embarrassing in a bad way, but I
don't really want to tell you. So that digital divide
is real. And look, thirty nine trillion. It's a big number.

(30:22):
Thirty nine trillion. Remember, one trillion is a dollar every
second for thirty one, seven and ten years. So thirty
nine of those babies owned by me and my brother
and sister and all us boomers. It's all going to y'all, right,
we're all gonna die, I mean hopefully not soon, but
what we're all gonna die, and all that money is
going to get left to the next gen. And those

(30:43):
people aren't gonna leave it in brokerage counts. They're not
gonna leave it in gold and real estate. They're gonna
live in a digital world. And and what's really crazy
is that next generation. So you got you got you
got the boomers, and then you got gen and gen Y,
then you got gen Z and jen A and the

(31:04):
Z and the A. You know my old well, I
got two older sons who are gen wise, older son
and daughter to get this right, So a son and
daughter who are gen wise, and then I got a
a gen Z little baby. And then I got my
grandkids who are Jenna's and so my zoomer son is

(31:30):
just never ever ever. I mean, my older kids, the
gen Wise they have brokerage accounts, they have Fiat accounts.
My zoomer son and my alpha grandkids they're just not
and that's okay, and that's good, and that's progress and
that's innovation. And at the end of the day, what

(31:52):
does this mean for biclin? What means Bitcoin is gonna
continue to rise? The big question, the question on everybody's mind.
It was yesterday the cycle peak? Or is the cycle
obliterated and there's no more cycle because there's so much
demand from institutions and sovereigns and maybe there was going

(32:13):
to get this cheek bitcoin reserve. I'm on record saying
I don't think October sixth is the peak. My calculations
gave me end of October beginning of November, and the
way I get to that is seventeen was December eighteenth.

(32:33):
Twenty one was November twenty first, both coincidentally correlating to
days when the CME announced futures projects which would allow
the big uglies to go naked short to push the
price down. Is there a date in late October where
this CMME is going to make an announcement. The CMME

(32:54):
did make an announcement last week, but I think they
said it's coming in twenty six but I have to
get my details on But they said they're going to
go to twenty four to seven three sixty five digital
asset futures. That's a bad thing. That's be careful what
you asked for, you might get it. We don't want

(33:15):
more paper, we want more real We want more bitcoin,
not futures bitcoin. Because when commodities can be created out
of thin air, then prices tend to get spoofed. Whether
it's gold now when they finally break out. Gold was
stuck for a long time, from like twenty eleven until

(33:36):
recently this year, and now boom, it finally goes up
because the people who were spoofing got overwhelmed by the demand.
And it's mostly safe haven demand from places like China
and India and places where you know people are waking
up to hey, FIAT is really not a good thing.

(33:58):
I'm on record saying I thought this cycle would would
go through late October early November. That by my numbers,
and I think I said this in February. You know,
we'd hit one seventy five ish would be this cycle peak?
Now why that? Well, fair value? We can determine right

(34:23):
metcals law model. Tim Peterson does it easy. You know,
one hundred and five hundred and ten somewhere around there.
Maybe it's a little higher now one fifteen fair value.
In previous cycles we got to two times fair value.
Fair value was ten thousand. In seventeen we got to twenty.

(34:43):
It was fair value was thirty three thousand. In twenty
twenty one we got to sixty nine. So two times
for why leverage? Too much leverage, too many people doing
stupid stuff, you know, bitfinex and you know, all kinds
of crazy bad actors giving people one hundred to one
leverage and pumping the price. I think those days are gone,

(35:05):
but doesn't mean there's no leverage, but I think the crazy,
crazy leverage is gone. And you know, I hear you
can get fifty x in the purpose market now, but whatever,
it's less than there was. So I said we'd go
to one and a half times fair value. So let's
say fair value is one fifteen. It gives us another

(35:25):
you know, fifty five, that's like one seventy. And that's
kind of where I come out. Now. If you look
at the power law curve, which has been super accurate
for a very long time, it's saying we hit two hundred,
like first week in November, second week in November. Maybe

(35:46):
maybe I don't know, sometime around thanks maybe maybe it's
even Thanksgiving. They've been really, really accurate, so I wouldn't
argue with them. So is it possible in the next
thirty to sixty days we have a short squeeze big
bull market? Definitely possible. Is it possible that this guy

(36:06):
was right two years ago, that the simulation has already
been written and yesterday was the peak and now we're in,
you know, the beginnings of crypto winner. The only thing
that makes me think it is it is definitely possible
is the relative strength. Yesterday was seventy four. Anytime you're
above seventy that's been a temporal peak. Again, doesn't necessarily

(36:32):
mean you have to have a crash, but it usually
means you can't go much higher. Our first fund, which
we launched back when we met in tent eighteen, you know,
is now getting towards the end of its life, and
we bought bitcoin early. We started buying. We waited, you know,
so we raised the fund in twenty eighteen the market

(36:52):
was crashing. We're like, jeez, we can't buy this stuff now,
and and you know, on good good on us now
we didn't buy it on the day like December seventh.
I remember the day, you know, because a big day.
I was on TV and it was CNBC and uh,
the woman host says, yeah, look how bad bitcoin is

(37:13):
is you know, three thy two hundred and you know
it's going to zero? And I said, look, bitcoin will
outperform stocks next year and for the next ten years.
In fact, I'm so confident of that. Pomp and Jason
and I just issued yesterday and I had actually called
Warren Buffett literally, someone told me if he call his

(37:33):
private number, he will pick up the phone if you
call after five o'clock. And I did and he did,
and we had a nice conversation, and I said, hey,
you made this hedge fun bet. Would you like to
make a bet? You take the S and P will
take Bitcoin. Said well, I mean, let me talk to
my guys and I'll come back to you. So he
came back to me and he said, they tell me

(37:54):
I'm too old to make that bet. I'm like, look,
you're gonna be chasing my sorry ass around when you're
one hundred years old. See, you're fine. But he didn't
take the bet, but so we made it on television, said,
anyone who wants to take S and P million dollar
charity bet, just like the buffet thing and you eat
both fun half and you put it in bonds and
then you see, you know, charity gets it. It's not

(38:14):
for me. Long story short, No one would take it.
We had one guy said all right, yeah, I'll take it,
and his son said, Dad, are you out of your
freaking mind. No, we are not doing that. I mean,
we have no upside. If we win, we're supposed to win.
If we lose, we look like idiots. So no, we're
not doing it, which is kind of funny. So no

(38:35):
one would take our bet. Now it's a good thing
because bitcoin has kicked the crap technical term out of
the S and P since twenty eighteen. But we did
start buying first quarter nineteen, so our average cost is,
you know, less than five k and and so we're
literally in the process of determining when will we distribute
that to LPs and so it's probably, well, we know

(39:00):
it'll be in fourth quarter, just don't know exactly when.

Speaker 2 (39:03):
So Mark, you mentioned earlier that there's less less leverage.
There is still leverage, but is less, And then you
have the ETF sucking up Bitcoin like a massive vacuum.
Oh yeah, and then you have digital acid treasury companies buying.
I know you're invested in a metaplanet.

Speaker 1 (39:17):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (39:17):
Do you feel the downturn in the bear market.

Speaker 1 (39:19):
It's going to be less, it's going to be less small. Oh,
thank you, very important. So there is an argument this says, well,
we're not going to have a cycle this time because
of all the things you said, all the new institutional demand,
but the level of the bear market I believe will
absolutely be less because like right now, if one twenty
five yesterday was that Wren twenty six was the peak,

(39:41):
the bear market is going to be like fifteen or
twenty percent, I mean, because we're not that high above
fair value. Sure, if we got to one seventy five
or you know, two hundred and we're fifty percent above,
the bear market might be you know, twenty five sixty percent,

(40:02):
but it's probably not going to be seventy five or
eighty four percent like the first couple. So to me
a correction again, humans are going to human We push
things up too high, like AI stocks right now, or
quantum computing stocks right now, or nuclear stocks. I mean,
we've pushed them to levels that don't make any sense

(40:22):
and they will correct. Now, some of them, like the quantum,
they might go down ninety nine percent. I mean, I
don't know, but if if we peak, if yesterday was
the peak, we might never go below one hundred k again, right,
because there's just no downside pressure. We might just just
kind of fluctuate like this for a while, and then

(40:43):
this fair value will keep accreating a five to six
percent a year as they devalue currency, and you know,
we just have this nice, steady, boring asset. If we
have a blow off top between now and Thanksgiving, yeah
we'll correction. And my guess is the correction is always

(41:03):
proportional to how far you are away from fair value. Sure,
so if you're fifty percent, if you're one hundred percent
above fair value, you got to drop at least fifty.
But then you normally go another fifty of that fifty,
So that's another twenty five, So you get down seventy five. Now,
if you're really super crazy, like you know, the US

(41:26):
stock market in two thousand, you go down eighty four percent.
Bitcoin in twenty seventeen you go down eighty four percent.
Bit that bitcoin in twenty twenty one you go down
seventy four percent. So if you get crazy crazy, then
your drop is bigger. Mark.

Speaker 2 (41:45):
Doesn't it feel like it's a bitcoin aside, it feels
like a stock market's a bit crazy. It feels like
gold real estate. It seems like we're we're in everything bubble,
and I don't know, I get this feeling.

Speaker 1 (41:56):
Well, we aren't in everything. But it's an absolutely great point,
and it's illogical. Right, Normally, your safe havens do well
and your growth assets do poorly, or your value assets
do poorly and your growth assets do well, or fixed
income does well, and equities do poorly, or bonds do

(42:19):
poorly and equity everything's because that's money illusion. That is
currency devaluation. That's different than Look, if a company is
earning more money, they generate money and they return share
you know, dividends to shareholders. That's real economic value creation.
If we're doing crazy stuff like this, this this silly

(42:42):
circular stuff that we're doing, where Okay, I'll tell everyone,
I'm gonna buy all your chips. If you promise to
buy you know, capacity from this company that I own
a little piece of that will I'll like, Well, but
someone has to pay the money, Like this one yesterday,
it's like, well, just give us the chips, but you

(43:04):
have to pay us for them. Oh no, no, no, no
no no. You give a stock too, but then your
stock price will go up and then you can sell.
Oh no, then then that's it. Then we'll sell the
stock that we got from you for free and then
we'll pay. Are you serious? And and it worked, So.

Speaker 3 (43:26):
We live in this this weird world where liquidity is
big but free float is small because so much money
is locked in passive and look a passive S and
P can't think.

Speaker 1 (43:43):
It's a dumb strategy, meaning rules based. So if Nvidia
has a market cap of four trillion and it's seven
percent of the index, every day that money goes in,
you must buy seven percent. You don't get to say,
you know, geez, that thirty times sale, that's probably a
bad buy. I don't want to do that. You don't

(44:04):
get to do that. It's an index. So so much money
is locked and can't do anything except what it's told
to do by the rules. The amount that's actually free
floating is small, so if anyone tries to short based
on the crazy valuation, they just get squeezed. And the
Tessa's been doing this for years I mean, when you

(44:26):
have low free float and lots of the asset locked,
you can manipulate the price. It's like doge coin, right,
doge coin quote unquote has this multi billion dollar market cap? Really? Well,
let us think about this. If Elon sold one doge,
how far with the price fall? If he tried to

(44:48):
sell five percent of what he owns, how far with
the price fall? If Mark Cuban sold ten percent of
what he owns, how far at the price fall? So
market cap, particularly in crypto, it's just a dumb idea,
right to say that the like XRP ridiculous. Right, you
got all this stuff owned by Brad and the foundation,

(45:09):
and then you got the army trading that shares back
and forth, back and forth to try to get two
eighty six or two eighty nine. If the foundation actually
sold all those coins, the price will basically go to
zero the feed of the duck thing. Okay, great, but
that's a that's a winding answer to how bad is

(45:32):
the market right now? The market is the worst ever,
Like two thousand was bad and I lived through it,
and you know we actually got very short it. Now
we were early euphemism for wrong. So our nineteen ninety
nine technical term sucked. But man, from two thousand to
two thousand and two, when the rest of the world
was down forty percent and the average endowment was down

(45:55):
twenty five, we were flat. Now flat isn't awesome, Like,
you know, I shouldn't break myren pat myself on the
back for flat, but flat sure better than down twenty
five or down forty. And again, it wasn't us being geniuses.
Was that people like Viking and Tiger Global and or
Tiger Tech back then were short these things. Now there's

(46:17):
one funny story. So you know, we got short subprime,
so we put ten percent of client assets short subprime
and gold financial crisis. Who worked out great? And the
problem with shorting, though, is you know you can short
all the way down to when things get really really
close to bankruptcy. But then there's a risk if they

(46:42):
don't go bankrupt, Yeah, they will squeeze back up. And
I'll never forget. I was in Chase Coleman's office and
I walk in. He's in a pissy mood and he
literally tosses this reported me. He says, look at this,
like what am I looking at? And this big thick
report and he you know, throws them and I, what

(47:02):
is this? Says City Group? Our model City Group is worthless.
They have more liabilities than assets. This thing should be zero. Right, Yep,
you're right. But it just went from one to five, right,
gone from eighty to one and then one to five.
So you know you're getting your ass kicked, right, And
he says yeah, and I finally figured it out. It

(47:23):
was inconvenient for too many people for city to go
to zero. And that's kind of it's inconvenient for too
many people to say, hey, open Ai, do you actually
have any money to buy those ampty chips? You're burning
eight billion of cash this year, like torching it on fire.

(47:46):
Oh but our revenues are growing, right, But every time
someone uses chat GPT you lose money. You actually don't
make money. You lose money every time they use it.
And it's the old thing of Jeff Bezos. Oh yeah,
we lose money on every transaction, but we make it
up on volume. Hahaha. That doesn't work. You have to
find a way to make money, and Jeff did obviously

(48:09):
in Amazon's great business. But I don't see a world
where they can find a way to make money because
the transformer model in and of self, it's very inefficient
in terms of power and demand for electricity. You know,
maybe someone will figure out a way to do it

(48:29):
more efficiently and effectively, but then that's bad for the incumbent, right,
I mean, the person with the new model will get
all the benefits. So I don't know, but it's inconvenient
for too many people who have put lots of money
into that business to say it isn't great.

Speaker 2 (48:45):
You mentioned Citibank, and you and I have talked about
JP Morgan a lot over the years and all the
things that have been happening and manipulation and so forth.
But Mark, they're all bending the knee. Vanguard capitulated JP
Morgan's new in tookenization. They partner with coinbase to lunch
crypto custody. City Bank's talking about see and launching its
own stable coin. Are we seeing the full capitulation here?

Speaker 1 (49:06):
Yes? But so yes, so we're but we're seeing graduated
capitulation and we're seeing the last stage of the Then
they fight you by trying to capitulate on stuffed that
doesn't really hurt them, but then tries to keep their
monopoly alive. And what do I mean by that, so

(49:28):
as a nine to twenty sixteen is the first they
ignore you phase. Yeah, nerds, geeks, magic internet money. You know,
you gotta meet some in the back alley and you
get hit with a wrench and then you lose all
your bitcoins. So science project not really interesting? Trade drugs?
Are it great? Okay? Seventeen or to nine to fifteen,
sixteen to twenty one. Then they laugh at you. Ah,

(49:52):
a bunch of nerds and geeks or your magic internet money?
Yeah whatever, Oh it's cute. Block five has ten billion
dollars came out of JP Moore. Eh, cute. Wait a minute,
now you're twenty billion. Now we got a fucking problem. Okay,
so you know, get the new Jersey regulators shut them down.
You go after Celsius and so get rid of competition.

(50:13):
So ten seventeen, I'm sorry, twenty two to I think
twenty twenty seven. Then they fight you faced the first
part and then they fight you. I mean it was
the smack in the face, put companies out of business,
threaten lawsuits, you know. And look Brian Armstrong, you know,
God loved the guy. I mean, he he just fought.
He said, come at me. Come at me. I'm doing

(50:36):
this right, I'm the future, you're not. And he won.
But now the problem is in theory. JP Morgan should
just say yep, decentralized is better than centralized. No JP
morgan coin, uh uh. They want JP morgan coin. They
want a permission blockchain. They you know, they'll let you

(50:56):
move money in their system using their blockchain, but they
don't really want you on a public ledger. So there's
a little bit of apicition. Now, Vanguard, that is true capitulation,
because that's you know, the guy's get over my dead
body where we allow our clients. But that was a
calculated risk, right. Their clients are all boomers, and boomers

(51:18):
have all the money. Boomers don't like bitcoin, right. All
the young kids want to buy the ETFs. They like, well,
you don't have any money, so go knock yourself out
on robin hood. We don't care. So it was it
was a branding thing to say nope, we're not gonna
do this, and all the boomer are like, oh, yeah, yeah,

(51:39):
I told you, I told you to palm's this game.
Well then a few boomers were like, shit, my son's
making a lot of money at this My daughter's making
a lot of money at this I gotta do this.
So once the boomers started saying, yeah, we want this,
they had to give in. So that's that's real, that's capitulation.
But the bank capitulation to me is still they're still

(52:01):
trying to do an end around. You know, they're still
trying to say Bitcoin is bad, Bitcoin is evil, it's
for terrorists and drug dealers. But we over here it's
what's your life of tastes art, right, and we say
that there's all this predicted programming out there, and if
you'll watch certain movies, then that happens in the future.
The one that gets me was a movie, but it
was a series called Mister Robot. Yeah, and it's scary.

(52:27):
Evil Corp. In Mister Robot is JP Morgan. I mean,
they talked about Bitcoin. They talked about Evil Corp shutting
it down with e coin and evil coin, and it's
interesting because that is playing out in real time. Now.
At the end, we know the goodness is we know
how it ends, right, is that then they fight you,

(52:48):
then you win. So we know decentralized is gonna win.
We know that bitcoin is better than fiat. We know
that real money is better than fake money. But seven
trillion dollars of revenue in banks, brokerage firms, insurance companies,

(53:08):
you know, counting firms audits. Like, why do we need
an auditor and pay them seven hundred thousand dollars a
year to audit the books and records of the company
if it's audited every ten minutes on chain? Well we don't,
so the auditors are probably not very psyched about this business.

(53:31):
Title I have to pay a thousand dollars every time
I do a real estate transaction for title search. Well
what if you do it once and then it's good forever.
That's just a better business model less. I mean, it
means you're freeing up capital do other more creative things.
But I understand the title insurance I like, I have
two buddies. They own a title insurance company, and they're

(53:53):
nice guys and they live a really comfortable life, but
they don't want this to happen. I look at at
all of innovation the same way. Right, when when new
technology comes along, it does a couple of things. One,
it solves the problem that people thought was intractable. Like,
I love all the charts now are like you know,
electricity uses going like this, and we're gonna use all

(54:15):
the electricity in the world just for AI and no
one else is gonna get any and you're gonna lose
all your w like, no, you're not. There is zero
chance that we're as a society going to say, yeah,
you know, it's okay, we're gonna use all the electricity
for this stupid thing. So I can ask chatch ept
you know, a silly question every morning. I mean, we're

(54:38):
just not gonna do that. And so it's just like
when everyone's saying we're gonna use all electricity in the
world to mind bitcoin, No we're not. I mean that
that's a silly thing. What's gonna happen is people are
gonna invent more efficient a six, right, They're gonna invent,
you know, workarounds like deep seek. Deep Seek doesn't use
as much electricity because they use software to make some

(55:01):
of the hardware things unnecessary so they don't need the
power hungry hardware. The fact that innovation always follows this cycle,
and whenever there's a new innovation like cars, when cars
came there said oh my god, we're gonna run out
of oil. Yeah, no, we haven't we haven't come close.
And oil prices in real terms are actually really low,

(55:26):
right comparatively, so we get more efficient. And remember telling
the story, you know fifteen years ago that there was
more oil in the US than Saudi Arabia, Right, that's ridiculous.
I'm like, well, it's actually true. It's underneath Colorado and
Wyoming and Texas. And the problem is it's in the shale.
And the only way at the time, back then, the

(55:47):
only way to get it this is crazy. You literally
drilled a mile down and then you started a tungsten
steel rod and then you heated it up to like
seven hundred degrees or something, and you melted the shale
and then hydrocarbons would bubble up like that just sounds expensive, right,
And so if that was the only way to get

(56:08):
it out, we probably wouldn't have got it out. But
somebody said, what if we fire sand down there with
pressure and will break the rock? And again, if you
told me you were going to do that, I'd say, no,
you're not. That's ridiculous. But it works, and it's cheaper.
Now we have cheap oil and we produce more oil
than anybody in the world. So innovation and human creativity.

(56:31):
It's back to Jimmy's song. If we have more time
to think and less time to just do what we're
told to do. If we don't have to, you know,
be in the monopoly that is the incumbents, Well, life
will get better and it will so Anyway.

Speaker 2 (56:49):
Before you go, I want to ask you about digital
accid treasury companies because Mark it feels like a bubbles
forming here. It started with bitcoin, but now they're expanding
to ethereum, salon and other assets. What are your thought
Are somebody these companies going to survive the bear market?

Speaker 1 (57:03):
Oh, for for sure they won't. And it just depends
on a bunch of things. It depends on balance sheet management. Right,
if you're overly indebted, it's gonna be a problem. Now,
it does depend on how deep the bear market is. Said,
if if we don't go up super high and we
don't go super low, there'll be more wiggle room. Bitcoin

(57:24):
or a digital asset treasury company. Why would I pay
a premium for a rapper to hold an asset that
I can hold myself? Yeah? I wouldn't. Now maybe you
could say, well security, they have better security. Okay, fine,

(57:45):
I'll pay a two percent premium, five percent premium, maybe
that does make sense to me. Okay, how about ease
of transaction, right, it's easier to do a transaction with
an ETF than it is with Eh. That's that's spurious argument.
But let's say security. I'll take that one. Okay. Then
the only other reason would be, well, if they can

(58:08):
issue debt at a really low rate and buy more
of the asset, there's an arbuitage. And Sailor has done
this famously on CNBC saying, look, if you'll lend me
money for zero and I can buy bitcoin that just
accrets to shareholders, and then I'll get an m NAV
above one. Well, if people pay me a premium and

(58:31):
I can issue new shares at one point two and
buy an asset at one, then I have a flywheel.
But the problem is if your m NAV is one
or lower, no flywheel. And so I think in the
bitcoin space there's going to be a small number of winners.

(58:54):
And I do think, you know, my strategy is one.
I think metaplanet is one. I do think there's going
to be definitely a few winners in the other assets.
I struggle because bitcoin to me is like gold, like
if you did this with gold makes sense to me
if you did it with you know, shares of a

(59:18):
company that did internet security. It's kind of like, how
I have you a smart contract to me a smart contract,
it's it's fine, but if I can issue more of
that token, I don't know, that's that's not that's more
like fiat.

Speaker 2 (59:32):
So so do you think though to your point of
the issue of more tokens, but what about like the
staking the yield component with's.

Speaker 1 (59:42):
Taking you that that's a great point. So certainly cash
flow generation starts to make it look more like a business.
And so I do think there's there's some logic there
and and so you have to balance the two. But
I said, it's a very important point, Tony. If you
can generate yield on your asset that cretes to shareholders,

(01:00:03):
and you should get a premium for that. I guess
the question is at what point do they equilibrate, meaning
the dilution of the new shares relative to the production
of the yield you know is equal or maybe you
know the protocol says, you know we're gonna burn you know,

(01:00:25):
we are going to reduce supply, We're not going to
grow supply. Infinitely. But you know, places where there's no
guarantee on on the supply of the asset. I just
don't to me. The bottom line digital asset treasuries need
to focus on scarce assets.

Speaker 2 (01:00:48):
That makes sense. Mark final thing forre I let you go.
I wish we had another hour, but uh, do you're doing?

Speaker 1 (01:00:56):
What's that? We'll do it again?

Speaker 2 (01:00:57):
Yeah, yeah, the anticipate the Clarity Act gets past the
market structure, and that's a huge narrative. As you see
approves additional all coin etaps. We lead to this blow
off top come November December, and that's it.

Speaker 1 (01:01:08):
So so it should have gotten approved. I actually don't know.
I do know, right the incumbents got in there and
you know, the bank said we don't want this, and
so ms Warren you know, and her cronies. I guess
got it got to stop. But I don't. I don't
know that there's enough. Like it was important for the

(01:01:32):
President and the administration to get the Genius Act passed
because you know, money, you know, and and the you know,
Commerce Secretary owns five percent of tether and you know,
so all that I get it. You know, Goldman knows
how to lobby and Jeremy's ex Goldman, So I get

(01:01:53):
that one. The other one, I just think you're dancing
too close to the incumbents and and they just don't
like it. But if it were to get pasted, I
think exactly as you describe would happen, we could get
We could finally get the all season that doesn't seem
to be coming it. It's funny. Scott Melker, who's a buddy
you know, tweets says, yeah, forget all season. I made

(01:02:14):
more money on Iran than than all my all coins,
so I'm just gonna trade stocks, which is kind of funny.
So bitcoin dominance and stable coin dominance are totally logical, right,
stable coins payment rails to replace you know, VSA MasterCard, whatever,

(01:02:35):
you know, Venmo PayPal, That makes perfect sense. Bitcoin as
digital gold makes perfect sense. All the other use cases,
I can see them, and I can make an argument
why they could work. But but they're they're fighting up
against incumbents that that have a lot to lose, whereas gold,

(01:02:58):
you know, there's really no one. I mean, I guess
the gold miners have stuff to lose, but they're not
big enough to matter, so they can't really fight against bitcoin.
Becoming digital goal. They you know, they're just not gonna
do it. But but the banks can still fight, So
we'll see how that goes. But I think it is
a good point, and I'm not the extreme. There's bitcoin

(01:03:21):
and everything else. It's a scam. I don't believe that.
I do think you know, Ethereum, Solana Avalanche. Smart contracts
I think have a role in the future. I really do,
and I think I think they're they're good, and suiy
is an interesting protocol, and I keep hoping chain Link
does what they tell me they're going to do. And
you know their army is like, you know you're missing that. Look,

(01:03:42):
I would love there to be interoperability, but armies who
are angry at you Link and XRP, so well, I'm
never going to come around XRP just not so army.
You can hate me, It's okay, I'm just never gonna
come around. Because look, I've been doing this a long
time and I've met with more than a thousand groups

(01:04:06):
building companies. We've invested in a hundred of them, so
we probably met with a couple thousand. I've never met
one building on either XRP or Cardono. That's impossible, right,
It's just impossible. I mean, now people will at me
and say no, we're building on I'm like, okay, then

(01:04:26):
come see me. No one's ever come see me. I've
met with hundreds of people building on eth, I've met
with hundreds of people building on Bitcoin. I've met with
hundreds of people building on Avalanche. I've met hundreds of
people building on Solana. I've never met anybody building on
those two protocols. So to me, I'm I'm just being logical.

(01:04:48):
But I makes people angry.

Speaker 2 (01:04:50):
Yeah, they're going going to come after you with the pitchforks,
but you know it is what it is.

Speaker 1 (01:04:54):
Mark and I and look at it doesn't matter what
I think. If this is a real protocol and they're
really going to replace Swift, godspeed. But we don't want
to replace Swift. We don't need another Swift. We don't
need a better Swift. We need to obliterate Swift. And
we need a new protoc We need a new system
based on decentralization, not centralization. So if you can do that,

(01:05:18):
love it. I don't think he could do that. But
but prove me.

Speaker 2 (01:05:21):
Wrong, Mark, If you can make me a promise, Bitcoin
hits you know, at least over one hundred and fifty k,
maybe one hundred and seventy We got to do an
in person in New York in my studio.

Speaker 1 (01:05:32):
Oh easy. Absolutely, absolutely. It just didn't worry. I mean,
I'm gonna be there on Monday, but it just didn't
work out. So absolutely we'll make that happen in person. Awesome, Mark,
thank you so much. Always appreciate your insights. All right,
can see you

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