Building the SAFEST Crypto Hardware Wallets! with Matej Zak

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
I do believe it is really like a paradigm shift
in terms of how we should think about money. So
I think that's where bitcoin is actually very educational, almost
like a platform opens the many questions and answers around
the world and around why, you know, countries get into
financial problems, why there's inflation and all that stuff. It's

(00:23):
not only technology, it's not only economic. It's more like
a social science or social topic which everybody would benefit from.

Speaker 2 (00:31):
Knowing more about.

Speaker 3 (00:37):
Hey, folks, welcome into the Thinking Crypto podcast. I'm your host,
Tony Edward, and we are recording in Prague at Treasure's office.
And joining me is Matte Jaques, who is the CEO
of Treasure.

Speaker 2 (00:48):
Mate, great to have you, Thanks for having me, Yeah, Te.

Speaker 3 (00:52):
Great event yesterday, awesome launch of the Treasure Safe seven.
I got to play around the device. It's beautiful, it's
great and there's a lot of cool features. So I'm
excited to dive into the details there. But I like
it to kick it off with people's backgrounds, you know,
tell us about where you were born, about growing up,
and how your professional background, how you ended up a
treasure of course.

Speaker 2 (01:13):
So I'm from the Czech Republic.

Speaker 1 (01:16):
I was born fifty kilometers from outside of Prague.

Speaker 2 (01:21):
I call it home.

Speaker 1 (01:23):
We're based here, the office is obviously here. Most of
our people are from the country, and my background is
actually very non tech. I studied music, you know, in
my early days. But actually I always have been sort

(01:43):
of I guess you could call it like entrepreneurial or
getting in all kind of like projects, you know, and
managing people and managing projects, et cetera. And I was
always kind of interested in back in general.

Speaker 2 (01:59):
So you know, I kind of.

Speaker 1 (02:02):
Always like the idea of like building startups, you know,
scaling them up, et cetera. So so, yeah, one thing
led to another, and then I kind of saw that
the product management is actually super interesting kind of area
of expertise that I would like to dive deeper into
because that's literally about, you know, building the right product

(02:25):
for the right people. And then seven years ago I
applied for a job with Treasure. So that's how this
whole went down, this whole thing.

Speaker 2 (02:37):
So I applied, I got in.

Speaker 1 (02:40):
It was a farther small company, maybe thirty forty people,
and and yeah, I started building new software products features.
Then I became sort of ahead of suite and chief
product officer, and then finally three years ago, I was
offered the cur control by the founders of the company.

Speaker 3 (03:03):
That's amazing, incredible journey moving up in the company. What
was your first encounter with bitcoin and what was your
aha moment that pulled you in and said, wait, I
get what bigcoin is?

Speaker 2 (03:14):
It literally was when I started in the company.

Speaker 1 (03:17):
I mean I was interested in in general and even
back in school, in economy, sociology, even psychology, those kind
of I think topics are. And by the way, I
also was always sort of like very much like a
freedom slash individualistic person.

Speaker 2 (03:35):
You know, I like my.

Speaker 1 (03:38):
Sort of endeavors or how to say, experiences in nature,
you know, like climbing and all that stuff. So I
think that kind of all these things sort of connected
together when I joined the company, and I had the
amazing opportunity to basically be coached and taught by the
founders of the whole hardware bold industry.

Speaker 3 (03:58):
Right.

Speaker 1 (03:58):
So, because I always really like to read a lot
and study quite a lot, I you know, read many
bitcoin books and again got coached by by they founders,
and then I think that's where it clicked, you know,
I was like, Okay, so this really it's not just
like some like money to egch, but it's als like

(04:21):
much bigger problems in the world.

Speaker 3 (04:24):
And do you feel like at the start of bitcoin
is this kind of pivotal moment in history where money
is changing, the distribution of power is changing, because, like
you mentioned, being able to be your own bank and
have that self sovereignty so to speak, it seems like
that was the birth of something very new in this

(04:44):
digital age that is going to change the dynamic of
people in governments and currency and much more.

Speaker 1 (04:50):
Yeah, I do believe it is really like a paradigm
shift in terms of how we should think about money.
So I think that's where bitcoin is actually educational, almost
almost like a platform, I would say for sure, because
when when you when you read about it, when you
try to get this exactly this sort of a moment,

(05:11):
it sort of opens all the how to say, the
many questions and answers around the world and around why
you know, countries get into financial problems, why there is
inflation and all that stuff. So I think that's yeah,
that's where I would say it's not only technology, it's

(05:34):
not only.

Speaker 2 (05:37):
Economic. It's more like.

Speaker 1 (05:38):
Almost like a yeah, like a social science or social topic,
which sure should kind of everybody would benefit from knowing
more about.

Speaker 3 (05:46):
Yeah, it's fascinating. And then from Bitcoin, this whole crypto
asset class and industry was established.

Speaker 2 (05:54):
What are your thoughts looking back to.

Speaker 3 (05:55):
When bigcoin was started to where the market is now,
where you have adoption from major banks in Wall Street
and trad fin institutions, but also in general regular people
being able to participate. But in addition you have blockchain
tech like smart contracts and much more.

Speaker 1 (06:11):
So it's super multifaceted industry now, which is kind of nice.
We see the adoption by more and more people. You know,
the estimates are probably six hundred million people or maybe more,
adding a couple hundreds every year, so it's growing, you know,
pretty fast. Again, the adoption is almost like exponential in

(06:33):
that sense. And you know, and it's a free market,
which I'm by the way, big believer, and it's how
it should be. So there are new services, new opportunities,
new technological advancement, et cetera. And I think where we
specifically come as a maybe as a company or even
my own personal persuasion that we should be sort of

(06:56):
careful or.

Speaker 2 (06:57):
Mindful of the true ownership of bitcoin and crypto.

Speaker 1 (07:03):
That's where obviously where gasure comes in as a product
as well, because there are many now products that look
like bitcoin or etherorem but they are actually not, right
of course, spoken at the ETFs as an example, or
even stocks of companies that are that are you know,
treasury companies, et cetera. That's not the real ownership of

(07:25):
bitcoin itself. And that's where I would remind everybody maybe
to do the homework there, because it's kind of a
pity because then it if you own this asset instead
of the private keys from bitcoin itself, then it just
removes you further further apart from the actual ownership, which
is a pity because that's how that's why bitcoin started

(07:48):
to exist to begin with, right so, and not to
have like super leveraged financial products, but to be able
to own proper non governmental money, you know, directly.

Speaker 3 (07:58):
That's a great point, and I think it's like a
double edged sword, right where yes, it brings in more capital,
Yes it gives more exposure to bitcoin, but it doesn't
it takes away the ownership exactly exactly. And I try
to remind people of that, like I believe in self costing.
I've been self casting for a long time. And if
you don't have access to your private keys, just know
you don't actually own that bitcoin or that asset, just

(08:22):
like you don't necessarily own the money in the bank,
because the bank can take your money at any point.
There's nothing stopping it from doing exactly.

Speaker 1 (08:28):
And they have just you know, some few percent of
what they actually glean they own right like and a
whole That's how and they are legally allowed to do so,
like to boost the business, et cetera.

Speaker 2 (08:37):
I understand that, but it's how we got here.

Speaker 1 (08:41):
And therefore I would be mindful and and I think
my job and job of the company is to remind
everybody you know, consider this as well, because the self
custody is sort of superior ownership because it's the true ownership,
unlike the indirect exposure.

Speaker 3 (08:58):
Absolutely, so talk to us, talked to us a bit
a bit about how Treasure is approaching educating the masses,
the average person walking in the street, because you know,
this could still be very intimidating to them, right the
technological part. Maybe they're not very tech savvy. They they
only know how to use their smartphone, and certain apps.
How is treasure looking to approach it to make it easier.

Speaker 1 (09:20):
Right, some huge believer in persuading the market not by words,
but by actions and by products, by really good experiences
in the products. So and the just our Safe seven
that we have just launched sexual testament to this because
it is the most sort of user from the product
that we have built. It's very beautiful, it has premium

(09:43):
sort of built really literally you would use it the
same way as you would do your high end phone. Right,
So your example that you gave, like maybe people use
only their phones, I would argue that's actually a very
similar experience. It's like it's if you can manage your
you know, has phones wireless headphones, then you can. This

(10:03):
is even easier because headphones don't have displays, you know,
so it doesn't guide you that well.

Speaker 2 (10:07):
So so it really is.

Speaker 1 (10:09):
Like super super easy. Sure, And yeah, that's how I
think we should educate people by giving them the great products.

Speaker 2 (10:18):
And then of.

Speaker 1 (10:18):
Course there's the board's part as well, where we you know,
we have pretty solid knowledge base, We have really good
customer support. We even have a service called chess or
Expert where you can actually book a session with a
physical person.

Speaker 2 (10:32):
Not AI love that, but yeah, and you can.

Speaker 1 (10:34):
Talk about why self custody house self custody. They will
help you to on board you and through the products
and yeah, so all these things we do to serve
as many people as possible.

Speaker 2 (10:45):
Absolutely.

Speaker 3 (10:46):
Yeah, And to your point, I love that you guys
have that handholding service. So I think that's very important
for a lot of people. You know, myself as an
early adopter and many folks who are earlier adopters. This
is it comes easy to us now, but if someone
who's now encounter bring bitcoin or crypto and they want
to do self class, it can be very intimidating, you know.
So that's great that you offer that service. And to

(11:07):
your point of the device, I was, you know, using
the Treasure Saved seven yesterday and beautiful and it feels
great in the hand. I love the touch screen and everything.
So to your point, the usability barrier, breaking that down
will improve adoption. But talk to us a bit about
maybe you can't give away your secret sauce, right, but

(11:27):
you know how you guys try are looking at you know,
user behavior and user habits, and if you can dive
dive a bit deeper, into that and like what makes
the device a great device for people to use?

Speaker 1 (11:40):
Yeah. Absolutely, So we have actually in house research team
the whole whole theme that is user experience research that
basically go really long ways to uh, to understand the
users' behaviors. Did they Actually that's the many versions of
the early products with actual people, actually you know users.

(12:05):
We collect that feedback, we apply it in the further development,
and you know, so it's extremely important because ultimately the
user is always right, right, So that's kind of the
saying and when we need to listen to them, and.

Speaker 2 (12:21):
So that's one part.

Speaker 1 (12:22):
But also we are pretty heavy users ourselves, right, So
that also is some feedback stream or like let's say,
some feedback loop where we kind of see the issues
ourselves and we try to improve upon the experiences that
we have with our own products.

Speaker 3 (12:40):
Yeah, that makes sense that you guys are the users
and you believe in self custody.

Speaker 2 (12:43):
Absolutely. Yeah.

Speaker 3 (12:45):
Let's talk a bit about the new device. There's some
really cool features, like it's quantum resistant, it has full
wireless connectivity. Let's talk about quantum resistance and what that
means with the device and future updates.

Speaker 1 (12:59):
So specifically, this device we actually were thinking, Okay, there's
the bus on the market that people might be worried about,
you know, the sort of post quantum cryptography or whether
it will break, you know, the hardware bullets and crypto
industry and bitcoing, et cetera. And since we, uh, we
were about to launch this product, we're thinking, well, maybe

(13:22):
we can apply some of the post quantum protections already
now that that will enable us to build on it
in the future. Because mind you, these devices are for
long term storage, right, It's not like you're sort of
fast consume electronic goods in the way that you would
just buy the next thing, you know, a year later

(13:44):
or something like like you would with your phone or
like people you know, like as much fast exactly with
the hardware bullets. They're actually built in a way for
for years of usage.

Speaker 3 (13:53):
Right.

Speaker 1 (13:53):
You can upgrade if you want to do anything. But
but they're built you know, with this in mind, not
just with actually trying to.

Speaker 2 (14:03):
Onboard you in the next product straight away.

Speaker 1 (14:06):
And why I'm saying this is because because of these
design sort of principles, we are already thinking now how
we can use this advanced cryptography already at almost like
the hardware slash manufacturing level, where you know, so there's
a piece of quote and something called bootloader, and that's

(14:27):
where we apply this and we can build on it
in our updates and firmware and even does sweet and
other software products. So so yeah, that's the idea.

Speaker 2 (14:37):
Yeah, that absolutely makes sense.

Speaker 3 (14:38):
And I'm assuming as there's further iterations with different types
of a cryptography quantum, the devices can be upgraded.

Speaker 2 (14:47):
Firmware wise and things exactly exactly. That makes sense.

Speaker 3 (14:50):
One of the things I noticed with the announcement was
the new battery and that gives extended life, but also
if the device is not used for like years, it's still.

Speaker 1 (14:59):
Be operational exactly, So exactly because of the design principles
that I've just described that you want to kind of
think about it like long term useage of Because we
are huddlers, we chose battery. It's called lithium iron phosphate
and unlike, for example, lithium ion, which would be like
your normal battery that you have in your phones and

(15:20):
other devices. Sure, this battery, this chemistry actually allows for
the battery to discharge or sell discharge much slower than
the standard battery, which means that if you exactly like
leave it in your jower or whatever and you don't
touch the device, it will take four times slower to

(15:40):
kind of lose the power on its own, right, So
we can just leave it for a year in jower
and when you take it out, it will still function
without you, for example, needing to recharge it.

Speaker 2 (15:50):
Yet depending of.

Speaker 1 (15:52):
Course on you know, other factors such as I don't
know temperature of the environment and how much battery was left,
et cetera. But it's basically superherior how to say, it's
superior technology for the given use case, which is like
again the long term storage.

Speaker 3 (16:09):
Yeah, that's great because one of the feedback items I've
heard from people in general use hardware, wealties make sure
it's charged because you know, it's really great. That's like
a key component having the longer battery exactly.

Speaker 1 (16:21):
Because also another feature of this battery is that, with
for example, the land batteries, you would.

Speaker 2 (16:29):
You could be or should be worried.

Speaker 1 (16:31):
About the battery being drained all the way to zero
because at some point it fails, of course, it damages
the device or damages the battery and you cannot really
recharge it again. In this device, that's not the case.
You can actually go all the way to zero and
it's not going to do a sort of damage the
battery itself.

Speaker 3 (16:49):
That's amazing. That's pretty groundbreaking.

Speaker 2 (16:51):
Yeah, it's it's pretty cool. Yeah, great, great feature.

Speaker 3 (16:54):
And then the other part is wireless connectivity. Tell us
about that via Bluetooth, And is there any security risk
with the Bluetooth connection?

Speaker 1 (17:02):
So we actually went again through pretty deep like rabbit
hole to make sure that the connection is super secure.
So it's into an encrypted we call it our host protocol.

Speaker 2 (17:14):
And I mean.

Speaker 1 (17:17):
Theoretically you could you could argue there are some potential risks,
but actually they're not very likely or anything. And by
the way, you can still use the device with the
cable if you want, but it's not a it's not
a big risk honestly.

Speaker 3 (17:31):
Oh yeah, for sure. And then I noticed, I don't
know if this is new, but it's like waterproof with
a new aluminum body and the gorilla glass. Is that
new the waterproof aspect or is that?

Speaker 1 (17:41):
Yeah? It has it has a certain rating for let's say,
like water splashes or something like this.

Speaker 3 (17:48):
Uh.

Speaker 1 (17:48):
And we also I think what is quite new with
this device is it is a display because we actually
built like a custom shape display, so we actually worked
with the manufacture that because normally you would you would
look for components on the market that are in specific shape,
so you know, the display would be some like square

(18:09):
or whatever, but we actually wanted the really iconic Chasser shape,
so it actually is you know, like, yeah, can actually
I have the device somewhere here so you know, it's
really the like the iconic shape that is, which.

Speaker 2 (18:23):
Is which makes it really nice.

Speaker 1 (18:24):
And by the way, it's also good for the us
ability because it's nice.

Speaker 2 (18:27):
In your hands, comfortable exactly exactly.

Speaker 3 (18:30):
Yeah, it's really great. I think the design is great
and to your point, it's right away. If you see
this device, you know it's treasure. Yeah, yeah, exactly, Yeah,
it's really cool.

Speaker 2 (18:39):
I have to say.

Speaker 3 (18:41):
Your presentation yesterday, the device set up, it felt like
an Apple presentation.

Speaker 2 (18:46):
It's a compliment.

Speaker 3 (18:47):
Yeah, definitely a compliment, right because we've seen Steve Jobs
and Apple they set the standard for Yeah, you know,
product so very beautiful. I love everything that you really appreciated.
A question regards to the future of self custody as
technology evolves, and there's further iterations. Do you believe there
might be how do I put it, the way we

(19:11):
store self our keys, private keys is going to be
tied to biometrics maybe or retina or so.

Speaker 2 (19:18):
The problem with this is actually.

Speaker 1 (19:22):
The fact that you could potentially tie the private keys
to some physical object that is unique in the world,
such as a retina. Sure, and that's problematic if you
think about it, because then you could you could basically
make the link between the two because you're not going
to change your.

Speaker 2 (19:41):
Eye for example. Yeah, whereas.

Speaker 1 (19:45):
With you know what you can basically when you create
a new set of private keys by for example, Chaser, Uh,
it doesn't it doesn't link to anything. So so that's
kind of like a security slash privacy feature. Right, So
if you tie your back up to your i mean
putty parts or somebody or something, then somebody could actually
like affect you and so so it's probably not a

(20:08):
good idea that a good way.

Speaker 3 (20:09):
Yeah, it's just curious because you know, you see a
lot of apps now they fingerprint biometric and then you
know you have the folks at World World Cooin World
Cooin they do the So I'm curious, like it's self custody,
you can adapt in it but to your point, there's
a rest there.

Speaker 2 (20:23):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (20:23):
Yeah, So it's a completely different story if you talk
about just authentications such as instead of pin that you
would just use your fingerprint to let's say, open an app,
and then you know, that's fine, that's that's not a problem.
But like when when we are talking about connecting to
the private keys, that's a whole different.

Speaker 2 (20:41):
Story, and it's probably another great idea.

Speaker 3 (20:43):
Sure, yeah, yeah, somebody come and kidnap you or something, right. Yeah, Now,
in regards to AI, are you looking into how you
can leverage AI, and maybe maybe this might still be
too early, but like maybe AI agents or AI in
devices or in the software things like that.

Speaker 2 (21:00):
Yeah, yeah, great, great question. So actually it is on
our radar.

Speaker 1 (21:05):
So I talked about the fact that we have pretty
great support and I mean we are using it already
today for you know, just saying basically issues of our
customers or users. So if they write to us, actually
AI help with this immensely. But I can also imagine
we would have like help inside of the products like

(21:26):
our Chaser's Feet for example, where it would educate you,
it would help you to make you conscious self custody decisions,
It could even help with some you know, like buy
the dep you know, messaging.

Speaker 2 (21:40):
I can imagine all these things.

Speaker 1 (21:42):
So so yeah, I think it would be great feature.
I think it would be cool, cool for like also
engagement in our apps. So so yeah, we're thinking about
this and I can see that it would happen maybe
next year or something like this.

Speaker 3 (21:54):
Oh sure, So speaking the next year, is there anything
also on your roadmap that you want to highlight that
There might be some things under NDA you can't say,
but just curious.

Speaker 2 (22:04):
Yeah, there are many things.

Speaker 1 (22:06):
So we for example, are working on sort of like
a developer gateway. We call it that way we could
have external companies, external developers that doesn't have to be companies,
it can be individuals as well to actually submit code,
for example for adding new coins to our firmware or
our products. So those kind of ideas, which is kind

(22:29):
of good for the scalability of the ecosystem. What else,
we also adding more and more features to our sort
of software services in terms of the ability to spend
your crypto from your phone, for example, from a mobile apps,
So that's on the roadmap as well. We're also thinking

(22:52):
how to improve the experience around the wallet backup. So
there are also some because now it's you know, very
much like paper driven, but we you're thinking of also
using the NFC and some some kind of capacity, which,
by the way, the device features as well. We don't
we didn't really talk about it at the at the
event because it doesn't have any feature now, but but

(23:13):
it features the NFC technology in the just or Safe
seven as well, which we could apply for different applications
and different features as well. And what else, Well, yeah,
we are connecting more third party wallets for example, right,
so so it's kind of cool as well. So users
can actually if they are, for example, used to work

(23:34):
with some software wallets in their phones, they can also
use you know, proper self custody of hardware with us.
But they can also connect it through through something we
call connect to you know, to the.

Speaker 2 (23:46):
Walls that they like. So yeah, those are probably some
of the highlights.

Speaker 3 (23:50):
Oh, very cool, very exciting. You mentioned developers, and you know,
one of the great things that Treasure is doing is
the code. Your devices are open source. The code is
open source. People can be it. And I'm speaking as
a NUBE, I don't I'm not a developer. Is there
any risk to that I definitely understand the benefits in
the openness. I absolutely believe in that. But is there
any risk in the world of AI and bad actors

(24:12):
trying to attack trouser?

Speaker 1 (24:16):
Not really, And let me try to explain how I mean.
But I'm not an engineer myself, right, So also a
disclaimer here, but the fact that it's open is actually
benefit for the security because thousands of experts, technical people
can review and do review our code, even specialized labs,

(24:36):
et cetera, where you could argue it possibly have some
more like a business. Downside is that somebody would just
copy paste the code and they would start. It will
give them some head start to try to here, for example,
a competition or whatever. And then by the way, happened
in the bust or is happening as we speak as well.

(24:56):
But the benefits are definitely great in the in terms
of the security and.

Speaker 2 (25:01):
What we actually do for the whole industry.

Speaker 1 (25:04):
And just as an example, I would give actually the
wallet backup, so so you're familiar with the seat phrase, right,
the words that we put as a backup of the
private keys. So this standard that we created as a company,
I mean, not me myself, but the founders of the
company created a standard that now uses like half.

Speaker 2 (25:25):
Of the industry.

Speaker 1 (25:26):
You know, three hundred million roughly are using the wallet
backup not in hardware words, but also software walds right,
And this format is actually open source, and by its
nature its open source nature. You know, these companies implemented
it and they don't have to trust Treasure and they

(25:47):
I simply simply use it. And that's why I believe
it got so wildly adopted, which is quite cool if
you think about it, because it has been so impactful
on the viasibility side of the industry.

Speaker 2 (25:58):
Oh yeah, for sure.

Speaker 3 (25:59):
You Like I said, I love that openness and transparency
and being able to have the industry weigh in on
the code.

Speaker 2 (26:06):
So that's really great.

Speaker 3 (26:07):
With all the success the Treasure has been having all
these product launches, are their plans to go public.

Speaker 2 (26:14):
Not really, not, not anytime soon, I believe.

Speaker 1 (26:19):
So we are actually quite proudly privately owned, which is
cool because it gives you basically the ability to make
sure the ability to protect the mission and the division
of the company. So because we are quite ruthless there,

(26:42):
I would say, you know, there are many ideas from
within the company outside of the company to do all
kind of new products. But sometimes I see it would
diverge us from being the you know, course of Custida
business and and I see it as a as a
race of us not being really really solid in the

(27:04):
core core value that you offered to the world. And therefore,
you know, if he had external investors and you know,
like boards that are maybe even outsiders, sure, then yeah,
I think we would lose some of that some of
the details that makes us who we are today.

Speaker 3 (27:27):
Yeah, I don't know if we can talk about it,
and you know, we'll edit it if anything, But no
problem was I feel like a Ledger is in that
situation that you're kind of highlighting where the influence is
coming more from the outside because of taking investor money, right, Yeah,
they kind of put themselves in a in a corner
a bit.

Speaker 1 (27:45):
Yeah, sometimes it's it feels like that from their communication.
I mean, I mean, I have all the respect for
our competitors, right, so I'm definitely not in a position
I would like to like have to say say anything
bad about them. But from what I at least have
been as I follow them, I can see that they

(28:05):
are maybe switching the focus much faster than we do.
And I think that's good and bad at the same time, right,
because we could argue that maybe we're not able to
get all the upside from all the business opportunities that
are there, like in the market right mainly in the
sort of crypto not bitcoin, but more like the crypto worlds,
like anything that's happening. They are all these like hypes,

(28:26):
you know, the NFTs meme, you name it. So we're
I think slower on this and more skeptical, more conservative.
I think they're way faster and they're even able to
switch the brand around this to whatever the darga and
target audience is, you know, the next quarter, a year, whatever.
But I think the benefit on the other side for

(28:48):
us is that the conservative approach makes it sort of
more stable, more twe to the values, more mission driven,
which we say kind of proudly because I think some
business people say, like, you cannot be mission driven because
it's you know, you're kind of leaving some money on
the table. But we are saying it quite proudly because
we need to focus on the core, core mission.

Speaker 2 (29:09):
Of the company.

Speaker 3 (29:10):
Absolutely, I wanted to get your take on the tokenization
market because we're seeing a lot of asset stocks gold either.
There's even folks working on real estate to put it
on the blockchain. It's treasure looking to support those assets
eventually once you know, once the market settles down and we,
I guess folks decide what is you know, what are
what are you going to use these tokenized assets for?

(29:31):
How they're Can you know they're gonna be fit in
the market? Are you looking at that?

Speaker 1 (29:35):
Never saying ever, I don't know. We don't really proactively
do it. I think again because of the sort of
converse that the converse that the co conservative approach. My apologies,
but you know, ultimately Chaser is sort of going agnostic
or keyse agnostic. You could you can say, I mean

(29:57):
it protects a bitcoin, it protects keys from ethereum and
anything else that we support, right, So I could imagine
that would be an option as well, But we are
not like proactively looking into this, so it'd be probably
more like laid back approach and see what happen, what happens.

Speaker 3 (30:13):
Yeah, Yeah, I think it's it's so early, yeah, and
I think the regulators are still catching up to try
to figure out how this will all be regulated. I
could speak for the United States, there're still you know,
we still need a crypto legislation. We still need to
figure out what assets can be tokenized, what can't, how
do you fit in the markets, and much more. As
far as stable coins, you know, in the United States,

(30:34):
for example, we just passed the Genius Act, which allows
a lot of people to create stable coins. Similar question,
will you look to support different stable coins as well?

Speaker 1 (30:43):
Yeah, we even do support some of them already, So yeah,
I think it's one of the valid use cases for
crypto in general, right, like serre value stable coins and
some casino as well there for sure, like speculation. So yeah,
I believe it's one of the core use cases because
you sometimes you hear like use cases in crypto and

(31:03):
you ask in the end, Okay, so what exactly is
the use is? Like just putting something on a blockchain
doesn't mean it's useful to anybody exactly, So I would
be a bit worried about or you know, more again
a conservative there, but table going is definitely valid use case.

Speaker 2 (31:17):
So so we do support them.

Speaker 3 (31:19):
You know, to your point of like, I have this
like love hate relationship with meme coins because I believe
in the free market and people being able to create
stuff on the blockchain, right, But also I don't some
of the stuff scammers are doing, rock pulling people, right,
I don't like that of course. So it's it's this
weird thing in this market right now, right, being able
to put you know, memes for anything, like I can

(31:41):
create a meme for the treasure device or something. Right,
what do you what do you what do you think
this market ends up? You know, as far as memes.

Speaker 2 (31:50):
Honest I don't know much about it.

Speaker 1 (31:52):
Again, like speaking from a very skeptical point of view,
very conservative. I mean, show me the use case, you know,
tell me how it's useful, how it benefits humanity, how
it benefits how it solves.

Speaker 2 (32:03):
Anything in the how to solve any problem in the world.

Speaker 3 (32:06):
Right.

Speaker 1 (32:07):
So, and when it's just simple speculation, then I'm like, yeah,
I mean it's a free market. You can speculate as
much as you want, feel free to do whatever you want.
That's ultimate little freedom as well. Honestly freedom do you.

Speaker 2 (32:20):
Lose your money? See your freedom? You know, Like I'm
not going to stop you.

Speaker 1 (32:24):
But again, quite conversative, con I mean choosing the difficult
words for me to pronounce. I'm sorry, Yeah, so quite
conservative approach.

Speaker 3 (32:38):
Yeah, and I think that makes sense because you know
what this feels like. You know, in the dot com boom,
there were a lot of great companies like Googles and Amazon,
but there were a lot of companies no revenue model.
They were just running a lot of ads and a
lot of collapsed in exactly. So it feels like a
lot of meme coins are going to do that when
the liquidity goes away.

Speaker 1 (32:56):
Yeah, it's yeah, it's ultimately exactly bubbles and yeah, which
I mean another example, I think the AI is a
little bit of a bubble as well. Like I think
now every company is like AI driven and whatever. It's like, yeah, well,
machine learning has been here for I don't know how
many years, but a really long time, and it was

(33:18):
just called differently. Of course, they are like a huge
breakthroughs sure, and of course, like we I mean, especially
as as a technological company, like a tech company, we
of course want to be more productive, more efficient, smarter, faster,
you know, of course than we would use AI. But
I would be just careful just to go crazy and

(33:40):
you know, and just pretend that it's going to solve.

Speaker 2 (33:46):
Every problem in the world, you know.

Speaker 3 (33:48):
Yeah, yeah, well put okay, match, it's twenty thirty five
years from now. Where do you see the crypto industry
and market? Do you see more adoption, more people being
spending their more merchants accept in crypto, and things like.

Speaker 2 (34:02):
That, exactly those things you said. I think.

Speaker 1 (34:06):
The market gap will be greater, the prices will be higher, obviously,
the more people will be in it, I think a
couple more hundred million will probably. I can imagine we'll
be around like at least one billion users, if not more.
Also one eighth of the world. Treaser will have a

(34:27):
new products in the markets as well as far as
wald backups, as far as hardware, ball, as as far
as software services, more coins, et cetera. There will be
probably clear maybe clear legislations and some regulatory questions as well.

Speaker 2 (34:52):
And I cannot think of anything else. I think that's it.

Speaker 3 (34:56):
Yeah, we'll have to see how things evolve. I got
some wrap up questions there for you, of course. Uh
it's a rapid fire favorite food.

Speaker 2 (35:07):
Pasta favorite musician or band.

Speaker 1 (35:13):
Corrosenwinkle guitarist, Yeah, nice, favorite movie The Big Shirt.

Speaker 2 (35:19):
Oh yeah, yeah, that's a good one. Favorite book.

Speaker 1 (35:24):
Principles by Ray Dalio oh yeah.

Speaker 3 (35:27):
And when you're not working at treasure, what are you
doing for fun?

Speaker 1 (35:30):
I climb mountains.

Speaker 3 (35:33):
You mentioned earlier, this is the last question that you
play guitar. I play guitar as well as well. Yeah,
what's your favorite type of music to play? And what
type of guitars do you own? So?

Speaker 2 (35:43):
Yeah, good question.

Speaker 1 (35:44):
So I started as a classical guitar musician, I mean
I studied it. So I own, by the way, some
Spanish guitars, like some nice ones. But now these day
mostly play jazz. I want to be just musician. A
bit of my buddies from the high school, which some
of them are actual professional.

Speaker 2 (36:03):
Jazz musicians unlike me.

Speaker 3 (36:06):
Uh.

Speaker 1 (36:06):
And I also play bass guitar like a five shrink
and I have an electric guitar as well.

Speaker 2 (36:11):
Very cool.

Speaker 3 (36:12):
I play almost everything. I have les Paul Fender strats.
I have my acoustic of course nice sometimes I play
to live my wife gets upset, uh monte absolute pleasure.

Speaker 2 (36:27):
Likewise, incredible event.

Speaker 3 (36:28):
I love the new Save seven and our next interview
maybe will be in New York at my studio New
York and we can we can catch up on.

Speaker 2 (36:35):
The latest there.

Speaker 1 (36:36):
Yeah, let's talk about a bit On Wall Street.

Speaker 2 (36:39):
That will be cool, awesome,

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