Expanding XRP's Utility with Flare Network & Firelight with Hugo Philion & Jesus Rodriguez

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
I think being able to enable real world assets with
effectively private DeFi protocols and keeping the privacy around that
but in a combinant manner is a big step towards
realizing viable real world asset markets. To where we're going
with that, I think is going to be heavily impatrol.

Speaker 2 (00:19):
Once you have the asset on the r side, you
need to unlock economic utility to produce SHIELD and that's
what we do. That's what we have built an entire platform,
so when you bring the two together, it creates real utility.
You have best in class interpret.

Speaker 3 (00:38):
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(01:43):
visit the link in the description. Hey, folks, welcome into
the Thinking Crypto podcast. I'm your host, Tony Edward, and
my guests today are Hugo Fillion, co founder of Flare
Networks and CEO of Flare Labs, and Heyesus Rodriguez, CPO
and co founder of Centaurra. Gentlemen, great to have you both.

Speaker 2 (02:01):
Thank you, Pow, thank you having here.

Speaker 3 (02:04):
Yeah, I'm excited to dive into the latest with Flair
as well as Firelight and all the great things that
are being built for XRP and other assets. Hugo, We've
spoken many times over the years. I'm a big fan
of Flair, my Flair token holder, so excited to dive
into everything. Hugo, Let's kick it off with Flair. What's
the latest and greatest? Give us the state of union

(02:24):
with Flair.

Speaker 1 (02:25):
Absolutely so. Claire's currently just really focusing on launching FXRP
V one point two, which is effectively a modified version
of the original f ass of the launch on Songbird.
It's already view one point two live on Songbird. It's
currently undergoing a public audit, so an audit competition public

(02:49):
click due to wrap up late September, so I believe
on September twenty one or twenty third, but I can't
remember the exact day, you know, Assuming that audit competition
comes back, we'll be looking to launch f assets directly.
Comes back positive without any major findings, we'll be looking

(03:09):
to launch f assets directly after that. So that's kind
of the state of where we are with FLAP. Obviously,
there's constant announcements, loads of interesting things that have been
happening over the summer, so our partnership with Deep Power,
as you know, all the announcements we've had out there.

Speaker 3 (03:27):
Oh, absolutely so, Once f x RP is live on
main net. What will be some of the benefits. What
can folks do with the asset?

Speaker 1 (03:36):
So F XRP, for those that don't know, is effectively
a bridge version of XRP on FLAP. It uses Flares technology,
It uses Flares data capabilities, because we believe that that
is a better bridge, a better way to bridge, specifically
a really good way to bridge a non smart contract

(03:59):
based network. So once you have that asset on Flair,
people able to mint f XRP, which is the version
of XRP effectively by locking XRP on the XRP network
and getting a representation of that on FLAP, then they'll
be able to use it. We've we've been building out
whilst we've been building f assets, we've been building out

(04:20):
a very very fully fleshed out de FI ecosystem and
bringing major assets into that ecosystem such as U S,
t t H and wrapped and staked EAT and of
course Flare and state flare and many other tokens beyond
that that exists in the t FI ecosystem. So you know,

(04:40):
the principal protocols are dex is, lending hopes, and of
course that n f TS. Although n f TS are
you know, admittedly not that big on Flare. You know,
we have some some very determined people who really really
like n f t s, but we're we're not a
primary n FT marketplace, and we mostly involved in you know,

(05:01):
DeFi and interest in DeFi. Testament to that is Flare's
DeFi growth over the last let's say six months, which
is really exploded. And so suddenly when you get a
very very large asset in like f XRP XRP, you'll
be able to use it across those DeFi offerings, one
of which is Firelight and probably which I think will

(05:23):
be one of the biggest use cases of XRP, not
just un Flare, but anyway, and I think you know,
but other things you'll be able to do with it
is you're able to lend it, you'll be able to
borrow XRP, you'll eventually be able to essentially turn XRP
into a stable coin through a CDP protocol, and you'll

(05:45):
be able to trade XRP. Most importantly, once your XRP
is in Firelight, you will get a stinked representation of
that XRP, which you can then do all the same
things that you can do in DeFi with XRP, with FXRP,
but with stated xorpes xorp and that is very exciting.
It's something you can earn yield whilst borrowing dollars off

(06:09):
of your XORP. So i'll leave at there.

Speaker 3 (06:12):
That's awesome. Thank you for that overview. So his use,
I'll jump to you. Since Firelight was brought up, tell
us a bit about Firelight and maybe you can elaborate
a bit more on what Hugo mentioned as far as
st xorp.

Speaker 2 (06:24):
Yeah, before that to give you an our view of
this ties to Firelight with Centaura. So Centauri is also
relatively new brand, but comes out of the merger of
two well known brands and Crypto into the block that
I co founded and that became the biggest institutional defive
provider in the space. And try the digitals. So we

(06:45):
march a couple of quarters ago and Trace twenty five
million as part of it. The overall vision is to
create sort of a universal layer for institutional device on
these days. What we call the RSMR yield platform provides
sort of the a gateway for institutions to interact with

(07:05):
defive be a very sophisticated strategy is a managed risk
provide very sophisticated alpha and a lot of automation. We
have our three point something billions in assets employee or
clients are the biggest brands in crypto and over three
hundred strategies a thousand risk models in production, so it's

(07:26):
a fairly large scale operation. As part of that, we
work with Repovery closely, so we have been very involved
on the the launch of the Repulse table coin on chain.
Our clients have been aptive contributors or liquidity providers to

(07:46):
to that ecosystem. So as part of that, our goal
is to essentially grow di right like expanded by and
one of the most interesting use cases for accelerating the
growth of DeFi is all this let's call it first
generation blockchains I three postal or cardan others that have

(08:06):
very large tvls, very almost non existent defined activity. So
we think bringing that process and chain either be a
wrapping a stake in and or primitive put unlock all
sorts of scenarios. So we have been active partners with
players on their design ecosystem for a while and a

(08:27):
few months ago you approached me with this idea of
what if we figure out how to make how to
stake x RP to provide yields and I thought it
was brilliant, so we decided to partner on it, and
hopefully the initial reactions have been extremely positive. So we
think we're going to be fully launching the first version

(08:48):
soon and the expectations are pretty high.

Speaker 3 (08:52):
That's exciting. I'm really looking forward to that.

Speaker 1 (08:55):
You know.

Speaker 3 (08:55):
A quick question a lot of people are going to
have is how is staking being brought these assets because
they don't have natively built in staking rewards like a
proof of steake blockchain. So tell us a bit about
how that yield is being generated. Where are those staking
rewards coming from?

Speaker 1 (09:11):
Absolutely so, yeah, you know, yes, they don't have native rewards.
The purpose of the staking application is to give as
close to a staking like risk as possible. You know.
The Firelight application allows you to probably do two categories
of things. The first is to stake your XRP to

(09:34):
secure services and those services, you know. One of the
things that I think that would be very interesting is
Flair is a network for data, but they can't get
all data. One of the reasons you can't get all
data is that, let's say, accessing stock market data, it's
extremely expensive and until there's a use case that justifies

(09:55):
the expense. Asking every single one of our one hundred
validators to go and access that data and pay for
real time access, which is thousands and thousands and thousands
of dollars per year, is prohibitively expensive. And so a
really nice solution that would be to be able to
stake to create an oracle on flow which takes a

(10:16):
limited set of our validatas UH and then they access
those stop market that stock market data and when you know,
we have some governance protocol built into Firelight that allows
us to slash if they report data that can proven
you know, be seen as wrong. And so this is

(10:36):
a market for security, a market for security securing oracles,
other networks, layer twos, those kind of things. And then
the second broad category is essentially what Highlight called ess
so economically secure services, which is things like insurance, things
like liquidity providient. These are staking like risk category, but

(11:02):
effectively also they are financial.

Speaker 2 (11:06):
Yeah, so if you want to separate that, so is
taking is a financial concert in which you lock assets
and assert guarantees about certain activity. Proof of steak is
a manifestation of it for a very specific use case,
that is the security of the negwork. So in that case,

(11:27):
you're totally right. XRPL is not a proof of stake change.
So but it just happened that So that use case
is not viable. Now what is viable is for the
for the hundreds of thousands of XRP holders out there,
they could take that XRP right and make security assertions

(11:48):
about some financial activity and then get rewards or a
slash depending on the outcome of that activity. That's conceptually
what we're trying to unlock with firelight. So security is
one use case for a staking right. That has been
the sort of the primary use case of the eigen layers,

(12:09):
symbiotic characters of the of the of the baby lungs
of the world. We are most focused on economic security
and probably unlocking new forms of DeFi primitive that don't
exist today but that could benefit They are very capital
intensive and could benefit from the billions that are currently

(12:29):
being held in x r P and and and eventually
other other assets. So if you the couple uh, the
stake in the concept from proof of steak, this whole
thing that start making a start making sense.

Speaker 1 (12:45):
Got it?

Speaker 3 (12:46):
And I read that it's a liquid staking setup like
you mentioned iigen layer, Like that's what they're doing for Etheroreum.
So essentially you're setting up a liquid staking for x
r P and and future assets eventually.

Speaker 2 (12:57):
Yeah. So look, we we have been fans and partners
of the giguents and symbiotics of the world. I think
there is a lot of innovation that came with those technologies.
I think that the ideas are novel. I think, like
any novel space, they're running to some friction points. I

(13:20):
think the two fundamental ones that we analyze when we
thought about partlight is the cause of capital of etherium
and big coin is high because both a theorium has
the native yew and big coin in the forms of
basis trading and other thing has a yield. So you
have to pay about that to make it viable, and

(13:43):
that is really really expensive. And then the use case
of netgwork security is questionable. Let's say, like there really
hasn't been a lot of projects that are willing to
pay for negwork security. And I'm as I said, I
have other efforts that are collaborating with a layer very

(14:03):
very actively. So I believe in the value proposition, but Fundamentally,
if you're a prayer that needs network security, probably you're
at an early stage that you don't have the capital
to afford them that way. So I think the model
has some issues. If you think about reimagine that value
proposition with assets that have zero cost of capital like XRP,

(14:26):
so there is no yield. There's never been a yield.
There's not gonna be a yell unless we figure out
something like PARTLIGHTE and for use cases that are conducive
to a native yield like DeFi stuff like we can
talk about some of those that you mentioned like insurance
or our was or things like that that actually produce

(14:48):
a native view and the risk is comparable to staking somewhat.
So if you've reimagine it with that value prop it
starts making sense.

Speaker 3 (14:59):
That definitely makes sense. So as far as timeline is
it that f XRP has to go live on main net,
then firelight folks will be able to move the f
x RP over the firelight to steake.

Speaker 1 (15:12):
Absolutely firelights and application built on flat the FXR piece
the core building block of fart light. So the fire
I think FXRPIE is going to unlock and is serious
of very important use cases for the XRP ecosystem, and
Firelight is gonna built on that specifically for a steak

(15:32):
in and hugo.

Speaker 3 (15:34):
Obviously, we've talked about other f assets like bitcoin, doge
like coin. I even saw you replied onto someone on
x about XLM. I'm assuming once FXRP is up and running,
you will be exploring adding these other assets, and also
they will be able to do the same thing on Firelight.

Speaker 1 (15:51):
All on the s for Firelight. But absolutely we're not
just exploring those other assets, you know, we're already building them.
Most importantly though, is that the f XRP version that
is being released, the first version on flare, which is
vally one point two, we can we can have we

(16:13):
can launch that because it's minimally capital capital intensive. For
the other assets like Stellar, Bitcoin, light Coin, essentially doge coin,
possibly Cardono that they already have smart contracts, but that's
sort of a different, a different thing. They don't have

(16:34):
them small contracts. Ye. Possibly those those will wait until
we release our protocol managed wallets in twenty twenty six,
so XRP will be the first f asset on then
there'll be a reasonable weight for protocol managed wallets in
twenty twenty six and then will be upgrading the system

(16:54):
to be able to handle those assets.

Speaker 3 (16:56):
Got it? Talk to us, Talk to us a bit
about the secure So let's say I have my f
x RP, I go to stake it, I get st
x r P. Is this all being done on smart contracts?
And what are the security layers to prevent any hacks
or vulnerabilities and things like that.

Speaker 1 (17:14):
Yeah, one hundred percent on smart contracts. And I think
you know we've we've always given really fought in many
ways far too much credibility to to really working hard
on security. We've had had it audited, we've had it tested,
we've tested live and productive with real money. We've tested,

(17:37):
you know, every aspect of it. We're doing an audit
competition when we ramping it up, you know, in in
in phases, so that we don't go from zero to
a billion on day one, you know. But you know,
from our perspective, we've we've we've worked incredibly hard to
make sure the security aspect of f assets and specifically

(18:01):
effects up which is wanting first it is well considered
and that we've done really best in the industry to
make sure that it's as good as possible. I mean,
we built an entire network around delivering data because we
didn't think the existing data protocols were decentralized and therefore
secure enough.

Speaker 2 (18:22):
So if you if you think about what it takes
to make one of these uh, let's say risk take
in paradigm to work and to end in this scenario
right in which you're using assets from non non defive
friendly ecosystems. So the interoperability building blog is huge and

(18:45):
its technically extremely challenged. Of depositing assets somewhere, minting on
the other side, making sure the accounting is solid, that
that is bullet prof from security. So this is something
f assets is best in class. Now, obviously there are
other teams that have worked on this, so coin based
via coin based costly work on cv x r P.

(19:09):
You have things like that, there is all the bridging
mechanisms like accelera and all that that you can use,
but that's not enough, right, Like, once you have the
asset on the other side, you need to unlock economic
utility to produce heal that That's what we do, right,
That's what we have built an entire platform. So when
you bring the two together right, it becomes it creates

(19:31):
real utility. You have best in class interpre XRPL to
flare interpreability security with real economic deal generating use cases.
On the other side, we have seen, including some of
the examples that we that I named before, many attempts
that solved the first leg right and use take and whatever,

(19:54):
and there is nobody consuming that, and then many fantastical
use basis from logging D five or XRP and all
that that doesn't don't have the interoperability for bustness to
h to make their work. So without the two pillars
and just of the word.

Speaker 3 (20:10):
Got it now, Hugo. Some of the big announcements that
you mentioned earlier were publicly listed companies like Vivo Power
and Everything Blockchain. You know, they're going to be launching
an XRP treasury strategy, you know, kind of like what
the other digital acid treasury companies are doing. But they
mentioned they will be deploying their XRP on the flair
DeFi ecosystem. Talk to us a bit about that and

(20:32):
how they're going to be doing this and uh, you know,
the partnership and how things will function.

Speaker 1 (20:37):
You know, these are listed entities, so I can't talk
about this extensively beyond what's been announced, but you know,
for instance, People Power announced that they're committing one hundred
million dollars waterpecks r p uh to the Flare ecosystem.
It's really up to them to decide how, when and where. Uh,

(21:01):
you know, I I think that firelight would be a
very very good solution for them, But they can also
take that x or P and they can borrow against
it to get dollars to leverage their position and get
more x ORP. And they can do that on Kinetic
or other lending protocols that are coming to Flare. I
quite like the idea of them turning their x RP
into a CDP based stable coin and effectively lending to themselves.

(21:26):
But I think firelight is really going to be the
first step for them, and then using that state x
r P in order to borrow against it, so getting
yield through firelight whilst borrowing against the asset value in
order to you know, if they wish to and up
to I would imagine sensible limits leverage their you know,

(21:50):
their treasury size from cetain amount of XRP to a
much larger amount of XRP and that's that's very interesting too.

Speaker 3 (21:59):
Yeah, it's pretty cool to see these institutions embracing this technology.
So you kind of have this maybe well balanced ecosystem
of institutions with retail and it's very healthy, so they're
able to borrow against each other or whatever it may be.
I did have a question about the staking, Hey, sus,
maybe you can answer this. So let's say I go

(22:19):
through Firelight, everything is up and running, I go and
I stake. What's the lockup term? Is it I could
pull out any time? Or do I have to lock
up for thirty days, sixty days?

Speaker 2 (22:29):
Or it's a traditional risk taking or steak in algorithm
that uses delayed qu for staking. That's what that's how
well established practice apt of blocks certain security attacks right
that that are famous for doing the deploine and removing

(22:50):
capital and that same block and things like that. So
that that's what we're gonna use. There is gonna be
imposed local period beyond that technical constrength of the solution.
Now on top of that, we might model financial solutions
that have local periods, but that's not on the core platform.

Speaker 3 (23:13):
Got it, Hugo, A question that just came to mind.
So with the ability of Flair to enable these DeFi
attributes to assets that don't have that built in natively
like x RP and bitcoin and so forth. Can you
also do this for tokenized assets? So let's say someone
tokenizes a stock like Tesla or Apple, or they tokenize

(23:35):
real estate. Can Flair enable these DeFi properties or products
or services for those assets.

Speaker 1 (23:43):
Yes, yes, of course, And it's a stream of work
that we're working on internally, very very heavily on. You know,
everyone talks about our WA's real world assets. As yet,
I think it's hard to point to the market within
blockchains having been overly successful. There's a number of hurdles,

(24:06):
not least some hurdles that I really think that Firelight
helps solve. And I think there's also a lack of
broader market willingness to engage in the in the sort
of exchange and trade and leveraging of assets from the

(24:26):
traditional financial community other than a few niche examples like treasuries,
and you know people who have tried to, you know,
make the rental income or the property deeds from hotels
in the Midwest. You know, more liquid assets than would

(24:46):
be traditional than they would be within traditional finance as
yet that hasn't worked out. I think it's going to
take a while to get there, but FLAIR is very
well positioned for it, not least because we are building
what we call FLAIR two point zero, which will use

(25:09):
trusted execution environments to enable sort of regulatory compliant private markets.
I think one of the biggest hurdles to r WA's
on chain, with the exclusion of the assets that have
been successful Mike Treasuries, is that I think a lot
of people, a lot of let's say you're a hedge fund,

(25:31):
they really don't want to broadcast their positions publicly. You know,
they really don't want to be known for taking a
position because it gives you a risk that people trade
against you, specifically trying to liquidate you. And I think
being able to enable real world assets with effectively private

(25:55):
DeFi protocols and keeping the privacy around that within a
compliant manner is a big step towards realizing viable real
world asset markets, and our use of trust execution environments.
Where we're going with that, I think is going to
be heavily impactful.

Speaker 2 (26:18):
Yeah, there are two two dimensions to this. That that
to the tokenized equities that might intersect with with sire
light in some way. One is so yield on equities
is probably the biggest use case for the tokenized equities today,

(26:40):
and we're working on several initiatives with different partners for this.
So if you hold Tesla or Mbilia today, you don't
earn any yield on those unless a company does give
it them biotent because typically that goes to your broker dealer,
right and they lend those stocks and make so there

(27:01):
is very little incentive for people to talkenize right to
buy a tokenized Tesla. But if you can earn yield
on your Tesla by tokenizer, that's a very clear It
don't locks a tremendous amount of but like monumental, I mean,
it could be one of the biggest use cases for
Web three altogether. Now, in order to do that, in

(27:23):
order to get that yeal, the way you're going to
earn that yeal is you supply your toganized testa. You
borrow stable coins, deploy those stable coins, make sure you
don't get liquidated. So you need a huge stable coin
ecosystem in order to in order to do that. The
second one that you alluded to verypherically there is one
of the biggest problems with our lues today is liquid Yeah,

(27:47):
so you all these credit phonds whatever they trade on
a T plus god knows what amount of days in
which you can orchid. You're very limited on the trace
that you're going to execute because you can get liquidated
very rapidly and you don't have access to liquidity. Now
imagine if you can use a steak XRP to bridge

(28:10):
that liquidity twenty four seven for a year. Right, it's complicated,
but if you have the liquidity and this probably has
a liquidity gaps massive So there there's some mechanics there
that could be orchestic.

Speaker 3 (28:26):
Yeah, that definitely makes sense. And then I don't know
which one if you can answer question, maybe Hugo. But
are you looking at pitching some of these digital asset
treasury companies that are holding assets like bitcoin where again
no native yield, but you can go to them and say, hey,
while just having the assets sit on your balance sheet,
why don't you put it to work? And you could

(28:46):
do that on the Flare.

Speaker 1 (28:49):
Absolutely we already are. That's what de goo and you
know everything lockedain on as we expand the assets that
Flare can can take in, you know, beyond XRP. We
obviously gives us the greatest set of institutions or companies
to asset treasuries that we can pitch. You know, today

(29:11):
we're fairly limited to pitching XRP specific treasury companies obviously,
as we are at other assets that increase.

Speaker 3 (29:20):
Yeah, yeah, definitely makes sense. Seems like a big opportunity
with all the I mean, this trend is growing significantly.
You're seeing companies around the world publicly traded adding crypto
to their balance sheet, and many are raising a lot
of capital to buy these assets. So it seems like
it's another big opportunity here. One thing I wanted to
follow with you on Hugo because we've been talking about

(29:41):
it over the years, and that's the sec versus ripple
and that is completely done and you know, it's over,
and it feels like a lot of folks can start
innovating on the XRP ledger. And I wanted to get
your thoughts on you know, that case wrapping up.

Speaker 1 (29:55):
That's fantastic. Oh, I'm glad it's wrapped up. Ship pro
we never have taken place, but you know, it's nice
to have a you know, a government in US that
is procrypto. You know, it just gives us all working
in the industry a bit of space to innovate. Obviously,

(30:17):
sensibly we don't want to do anything that's you know,
egregious or silly or cross its lines. But it certainly
goes a long way towards making America specifically, both the
end of the case and the more crypto favorable regime,

(30:40):
it makes a US much more favorable to which to
you know, work either with people in the US or
to be able to offer services to people in the US.

Speaker 3 (30:54):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely, And it seems like this case can
be a president where it could be used for the
SEC to provide guidance, further guidance even Congress as they're
currently working on the Clarity Act, and you know, everybody's
anticipating that potentially gets passed here in the fall and
would be really great for innovation in the United States

(31:15):
and assume other countries are going to follow suit as well.
Now in regards to uh, I know, I'm jumping back
and forth there a bit, but let's say, folks, uh,
you know, they put their f XRP into staking and
we go into a bear market with a price fluctuations,
you know, affect these assets as they do with every

(31:35):
you know, asset, regardless if it's a stock market or crypto,
whatever it may be. Does that affect anything as far
as the staking.

Speaker 2 (31:43):
Oh, I'm sure some impact will have. But the first
so you know, like I get layer has they actively
validated services as the core primitive for applications. We introduce
this comp called economically steckture services because you just to
to make it to make the economic value points so

(32:05):
front and center of the of the firelight sort of mission.
The use cases are produced, yels. We're trying to make
it not very correlated at all with XRP, with the
asset that we're using or forest taking. But I'm sure
that in a market everything gets affected. So I'm sure

(32:26):
some level of impact would.

Speaker 1 (32:28):
Have got it.

Speaker 3 (32:29):
Yeah, I mean, I guess we'll have to navigate those
waters as we head into them. But yeah, that makes sense.
So to recap timeline, Hugo mentioned f x RP possibly October.
We may see it go on maynt and then Firelight
maybe soon after.

Speaker 1 (32:48):
Well, I said, I said that the audit competition wraps
up towards the end of September and assume, assuming that
order competition doesn't reveal any may too issues that we
need to go in right fight, and we'll be launching
directly off to that over the competention and fire.

Speaker 2 (33:09):
I would shut follow.

Speaker 3 (33:10):
A bi okay, great, great, so fingers crossed. October we
got all this up and running and I'm looking forward
to testing and getting in the mix of all this.
It's it's really exciting. Well, Hugo Hayesus, thank you so
much for joining me. Great stuff, and I'm sure we're
going to do another uh interview maybe in a couple

(33:32):
of months or so as everything is live and we
can talk through maybe walk through some examples of how
folks can leverage this the system.

Speaker 1 (33:41):
That'll be awesome. Thank you, Tony, thank you very much
for having is

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