HUGE Stablecoin Innovation Unlocked with the GENIUS Act Passing! with Kevin Lehtiniitty

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
So Trillion is an OTC desk that provides a lot
of liquidity between stable coins and FIAC currencies across Latin America.
And what we've been doing from Borderali as standpoint is
when you're building a payments network, there's two things that
matter to me. The most one is what's the breadth
of that network, and the second is what's the depth
of that network? So how much liquidity do we have
in all these different markets, and then how broad is

(00:22):
the coverage that we have across the world.

Speaker 2 (00:29):
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the description. Hey folks, I'm down here at Station three

(01:36):
NYC in New York's Financial District and joining me is
Kevin Litinity, who is the CEO of Borderless Xyz. Kevin,
I'm so happy we're doing this in person.

Speaker 1 (01:46):
Thanks for having me on. It's always more exciting to
do things irl, you know, I'm just so tired of
zoom rectangles through screens. I'm excited that I'm meeting you
face to face, have a real genuine conversation. That's that's
what the industry is.

Speaker 2 (02:00):
And it's a perfect timing because Kevin the genius act
pass right. It's stable coin, party time, innovation and much more.
You know, we had an interview where we went through
all the great things Borderless is doing, and I think
this is a very good time for us to be
chatting posts Genius Acting.

Speaker 1 (02:16):
Look pass USDC is going to two dollars. I'm calling it. Okay,
it's happening.

Speaker 2 (02:20):
You know some people, I remember the memes are starting
about that someone posted I invested in USDT and it
didn't go up yet. That's well no, So Kevin, before
we get into all things genius act and the future
is stable coin payments and much more, give the folks
a quick overview of borderless.

Speaker 1 (02:36):
So with Borderless, what we've tried to do is we've
tried to completely commoditize connectivity. And what I mean by
that is when you look at the liquidity that exists
between stable coins and local fiat currencies, that liquidity is
highly fragmented around the world. So you have companies which
we all know is kind of the big brands, right Bridge, BVNK, Bitso,
Yellow Car, these kind of leading orchestrators and different geographies.

(02:59):
And then you have a ton, especially in this market,
of startups that are getting funded that are also providing
liquidity in a smaller subset of regions, and the reason
this is so fragmented is still the regulatory landscape. So
blockchains are global. We all know that tokens are global,
we all know that, But regulatory frameworks are still super fragmented.
So just because you have a regulatory license in Brazil
doesn't mean that suddenly you can operate in the EU.

(03:21):
So you've got all these not small but fragmented local
liquidity providers. And in the traditional payment space, we've solved
this with networks, the Visa network, the MasterCard, the Swift network.
Nobody is licensed everywhere, even JP Morgan Chase doesn't have
regulatory licenses in one hundred and ninety five different countries.
And imagine a world in which every bank needs to

(03:44):
do an API integration into every single other bank around
the world in order to transact with them. Completely unscalable
and completely solved by standards. I connect to Swift. Swift
is connected to all these other banks. Therefore we can
transact together. That doesn't exist in stable points. If Bridge
wants to transact with yellow Card, Bridge needs to go
into a partnership with and an integration into Yellow Card.

(04:07):
So what Borderalist has done is try to build that
connectivity where you connect once into borderless and borderless is
connected into the borderless network which is now fifteen and growing,
regulated counterparties and all these different jurisdictions across the US, EU,
Latin Africa, Southeast Asia. So you can connect one time

(04:27):
and then enable all these different counterparties that you can
transact with to create these cross border products and global
payments products.

Speaker 2 (04:33):
So you're like a hub connecting all these bangs and
payment service companies via stable coins.

Speaker 1 (04:39):
That's exactly what we do. So pretend that you're a
payments company or an orchestrator and you're licensed in Columbia
and Brazil. You're like, great, I want to create a
corridor into South Africa. I want to create a corridor
into China. I want to create a corridor into the EU.
I need to now have access to a network of
regulated counterparties in South Africa, in China, in the EU

(05:01):
to do that other leg of that transaction. So if
I connect to the border as network, now I have
all these counter parties already built in that I can
choose from, and I'm basically the way we think about
it is, in this case, you're the originator and then
these counterparties are the beneficiaries, and now you can do
and then to end either on ramp off ramp stable
cooin sandwich, treasury management, whatever that looks like. Right, So

(05:24):
we don't work on the liquidity or the regulatory licenses
in any country. We work on this connectivity, messaging and
communications later where we say, great, there's already one hundred
companies out there that are licensed in all these different
countries providing the liquidity. How do we connect them all
in one platform that makes it really easy for people
to use.

Speaker 2 (05:41):
So the real world use case, just putting myself in
this situation, if I wanted to send a friend in
Hong Kong some money and I want to send him USDC,
you could help connect that even if he's not using
the same bank or same payment provider that I am.
So let's say I send it through JP Morgan and
he has I don't know, with some bank in the

(06:02):
Asian markets. You essentially you're helping to build the interoperability
in the bridge to have that go through seamlessly.

Speaker 1 (06:09):
Basically. So let me give you a great customer example.
There's a new kind of stable cooin focus in THEO
Bank that launched recently called Polar, and Polar is all
about and I love this example because it's a niche market,
which is like use cases, I don't think of that.
I love they're specifically targeting like cruise ship workers because
cruise ship workers have massive payments problems in the sense

(06:32):
that they're getting paid from us EU kind of other countries.
And the vast majority of why cruise ship workers go
into that industry, like why would you work on a
cruise ship right You're gone from home months at a time.
That's a giant sacrifice, mostly to send money back home.
So they then need to get payroll processing is straightforward.
But when I get paid to the cruise ship worker,
how do I then send that money back to the Philippines,

(06:53):
back to China, back to all those things. There's liquidity
providers in each of those regions, and the way that
Polar's doing it is by connecting to Borderless and then
they're using the borderless network of liquidity providers all around
the world to say great, it doesn't matter if you
live in country ABCD or f you can off ramp
your USDC balance in the Polar app to your family's
FIAT bank account. Basically, anywhere in the world because they're

(07:15):
connected to borderless, and borderless then connects them to these
regulated liquidity providers all over the world.

Speaker 2 (07:20):
Interesting and so essentially you're a new modern day Swift,
if you want to call it that.

Speaker 1 (07:27):
I think the VCS hate when we use the Swift
analogy because Swift isn't a for profit, you know, giant business.
But that's effectively what we've done right in capital markets.
A lot of this is like an ECN is one
way to think about this, right, So you connect to
the ECN, the ECN is connected to a bunch of venues.
Because what you can imagine after connectivity is now we
work on optimization. Right, So there's five counterparties that are

(07:48):
providing liquidity between USDC and BRL in Brazil. They're all
offering it at different rates. So now you get into
some like best execution and things like that. Of great,
if you have a bunch of providers on a network,
now I can start to run Algos on top of
this network, and I can say, hey, provider A is
at X, provider B is at Y, Provider C is

(08:09):
at Z right now this second, in real time, the
best FX rate is provider B do you want to
route the transaction through their liquidity right now? In this
second it's provider C let me route there. And those
are the things that if you connect directly to a
provider like a bitso as an example, you get bitso's
rate no matter what. If you connect to bitso through borderless,

(08:31):
you can also connect to three other people and now
they're almost bidding for the order flow and you're able
to route the transaction in real time to whoever has
the best FX versus just being stuck with one person's rate.
So there's all these cool things that you get to
start to build on top of the liquidity.

Speaker 2 (08:45):
Oh sure, and that's great. I mean to have that option.
And are you supporting institutions mainly or is it retail
or the retails on the end of the respective.

Speaker 1 (08:54):
It's often on the end. So our entire business is
B to B. We're an infrastructure company. So we provide
our platform and our network to originators that look like
you know, trust companies in the US, to orchestrators around
the world, and to some of the like FinTechs, the
neo banks, the PSPs, people like that, and then they

(09:18):
in turn serve both corporates that are looking at like
treasury management repatriation. You know, SpaceX does a lot with
stable coins to repatriate funds back into the US, and
then they also serve end users, right, So think creator economy,
neo banks, think consumer cross border remittance apps, things of
that nature. Those are kind of the application layer is

(09:39):
our customer, and then they're taking it to their user
and corporate customer base.

Speaker 2 (09:43):
That makes sense.

Speaker 1 (09:44):
So B to B two C B two B two B.
There's a lot of bs and twos in there, but
generally that's what works.

Speaker 2 (09:50):
I read recently that you point or a trillion digital
joined to borderless XYZ network. Tell us about that.

Speaker 1 (09:57):
So trillion is an o TC desk that provides a
lot lot of liquidity between stable coins and FIAC currencies
across Latin America. And what we've been doing from border
as standpoint is when you're building a payments network, there's
two things that matter to me. The most one is
what's the breadth of that network and the second is
what's the depth of that network. So how much liquidity
do we have in all these different markets? And then

(10:18):
how broad is the coverage that we have across the world. Right,
can we support every single country on planet Earth today?
The answers no. I dream of a day in which
the answer is. The Borderless Network is literally in every
non sanctioned country in the world. And you know, Trillion
is part of our you know, big push on expansion
where we've been doing some transaction processing with their liquidity

(10:41):
for some corporates that are repatriating funds actually from Brazil
back to the US, very specifically with Trillion. And the
more and more we started to talk with the team,
the more they're like, hey, we don't want to just
kind of do these one off things, like we want
to actually join the Borderless Network and we want to
be one of the regulated counter parties that's on the network.
And you know, when there are people that need to
consume our liquidity, and our liquidity is are the best

(11:02):
possible price. We want to be able to fill those orders.
And when we want to consume liquidity that we don't
have because they are licensed in a subset of countries, right,
They're not licensed in one hundred and ninety five countries
around the world, we want to be able to consume
that liquidity for the network. So a lot of the
people that are joining the network are joining it as
both a beneficiary where they're filling transactions when they win
from a price standpoint, and then they're also originating transactions

(11:24):
when they need liquidity in areas they don't cover.

Speaker 2 (11:27):
That makes sense. It's exciting. And there's a question I
want to ask you, but I want to get ahead
of myself because I'm been too excited about what's happening
right now. But you know what else is new? I
around border lists that you want to highlight, you know
that maybe you guys recently launch or whatever it may be.

Speaker 1 (11:42):
Oh, just the growth has been really really fun, right,
It's we're talking about this before the cameras were rolling.
It's it's a good time to be in the stable
point business, right And we just had our our quarterly
board meeting last week and we were pulling up like
volume graphs and things like that. Q two volume was
quite literally ten x Q one volume. That's I've been in,

(12:04):
you know, the blockchain world professionally since twenty sixteen, which
is kind of scary at the same time as you
it's weird to think that's been like nine years and
we've seen a lot of cycles and a lot of growth,
but ten x in a quarter that's kind of insane. Yeah,
And I'll be honest, I don't know how much of
that is super sustainable right like I do think the

(12:25):
market is very frothy. There's a lot of hype right now.
There's a ton of stable coin use cases that I
would argue not only don't make sense, but we have
the data to refute that they don't work. That people
are still super excited about, so whatever. But that just
shows the demand right now is off the charts for
people that are whether they end up doing it sustainably

(12:47):
or not, are legitimately looking at and trying to understand
should they move part or all of their transaction flow
to the stable coins, which to them represents, you know,
instantly settle programmable money versus kind of the legacy structures
we've had before.

Speaker 2 (13:04):
So would the Genius Act pass into law for those
who don't know, that's a stable coin legislation that President
Trump just signed into law last week. Are you seeing
if your phone ringing off the hook more demand coming in?

Speaker 1 (13:17):
I think, you know, when we think about the borderless network.
We started the company about a year and a half ago,
and one of the questions that we get the most often.
Now since Circle launched their payments network called CPN, the
question is okay, well, what's the difference between borderless and CPN?
And when we started the company, there wasn't really such
a thing as a payments network, right, that didn't exist.

(13:39):
CPN didn't exist. This concept was completely new, and it
was really difficult for people to understand what we did.
They're like, wait, so are you a provider or are
you a blockchain or are you a stable coin? Like
we're none of those things. We're a payments network. And
people are like, what is that? Why do I need it?
Et cetera, et cetera. Now that's will come out with CPN.

(14:01):
That's massively validated the fact that a payments network should
exist as a category. Right, Circle is, you know, the
publicly traded giants of the stable coin space. That there
is the market cap giants of the stable coin space.
Circle is the publicly traded giant. So that to have
the biggest publicly traded company and stable coins create a
product that looks very similar to ours is massively validat
into the business model. And our super simple answer now

(14:24):
is well, we're a stable coin agnostic version of CPN. Right,
CPN has no incentives and I'm sure they will at
some point, very little incentive to promote competing stable coins
to USDC, euroc et cetera. And now that the Genius
Acts has been passed, there's so much more interest in
launching new stable coins. That is perfect for us because
we're the stable coin agnostic version. If the entire world

(14:46):
collapses to USDC, there is no need for borderless just UCPN.
That's it. If the entire world doesn't collapse onto one
stable coin, which we firmly believe it won't, and right
now we're in this expansionary environment on stable coop issuance
with the Genius Act. Then the network layer needs to
be credibly neutral. It can't be built by a stable
coin because that stable coin will always buy us its

(15:08):
own token. It can't be built by a layer one
blockchain because that blockchain will always buy us its own network.
It can't be built by a wallet provider because that
wallet provider will always buy us the assets in its
own wallets. Right, it can't be built by any of
these market participants and be credibly neutral. So the only
way to build a credibly neutral payments network is something

(15:29):
like Borderless, which is not a layer one, which is
not a token, which is not a wallet provider, which
is not you know, any of these things, and is
just quote unquote a payments network.

Speaker 2 (15:39):
Yeah, that that absolutely makes sense to your point of
being agnostic. There's so many stable coins out there already
to market, and then we have news that banks are
going to launch your own. Oh yeah, Bank of America
is just I saw I think it was yesterday Western
Union CEO speaking about they want to integrate stable coins.
So with this legisy in place, almost anyone can launch

(16:01):
your own stable coin. We don't know which ones are
going to be successful, but there's going to be more
than one.

Speaker 1 (16:06):
Oh there's going to be a giant explosion.

Speaker 2 (16:07):
Right.

Speaker 1 (16:08):
So, the more that we've talked to institutions previously about
launching stable coins, the number one thing that's been holding
them back. It hasn't been technology, it hasn't been kind
of business case. It hasn't been executive sponsorship or interest
from the leadership teams. It's been regulatory uncertainty. And companies
like Boba have basically said, look, we are going to

(16:30):
launch a stable coin as soon as we have a
legal framework which our compliance and risk teams can be
comfortable with. And now with Genius, that's all starting to happen,
right and that I think is going to see a
giant explosion, and we can jump into what stable coins
will win in which ones well, when I'm happy to
put some theories out there, but I think we're gonna
see a giant explosion of stable coin issues.

Speaker 2 (16:50):
And to your point of being an agnostic, you're also
interoperable in many different blockchains exactly, multi multi geography, multi blockchain,
multi stable coin, multi infrastructure provider. So we have integrations
and partnerships with like fire Blocks, Utila Defense, working on

(17:11):
some others. We're looking at accounting and reconciliation platforms like
the bitwaves and tres Finances of the world. We're looking
at compliance vendor integrations like the sok here, some subs, personas,
et cetera.

Speaker 1 (17:24):
Of the world. So that really when you think about
building a stable coin stack, at the end of the day,
we want Borderless to be that glue that holds it
all together. It's say, great, if I'm using borderless to
connect to all of this liquidity all over the world,
why am I not also using borderless, to connect to wallets,
to connect to compliance systems, to connect to accounting and
reconciliation systems, to connect to risk systems, et cetera, et cetera. Right,

(17:47):
connectivity is more than liquidity. Maybe that's a little bit
of a of a teaser, some alpha into what are
you know, three or five year roadmap looks like, But
that's kind of how we view the business.

Speaker 2 (17:56):
Yeah, that absolutely makes sense. Expect everybody in their grandma
to launch a stable coin now, and is this market
going to get oversaturated and it had to be some
consolidation at some point.

Speaker 1 (18:07):
I think everybody in their grandma will launch a stable coin.
I think the vast majority of those stable coins will fail.
There's three models that I think may do well, and
I think the model which will fail completely across the
board is this like third party, single issuer model. So
what Circle and Tether have done. That market is dead,
that opportunity no longer exists. It's owned by Circle, it's

(18:29):
owned by Tether. If you're a tech startup saying hey,
you know what, I'm just going to build a stable
coin and that's going to be my business, that's not
gonna work. The ones that I'm bullish on are one
people with distribution. So if you look at Circles as
one filing when they did their IPO, and you look
at how much they paid a coinbase and others for distribution,
anybody that has a built in distribution base can avoid

(18:50):
those costs, which is absolutely massive. So in that realm,
I'm thinking traditional payments companies, so the Western Union, the
money Grams, et cetera of the world, who already have
all this distribution. Super simple for them to flip on
a stable coin, right, Well, simple is relative, but you
get my point. Oh, you know Paypals kind of started

(19:13):
doing this with PYUSD. They own a tremendous amount of
distribution themselves. Why give that to someone else. The corporates
that have a large entrenched customer base, so Amazon stable coin,
Walmart stable coin, Samsung stable coin, you know these sorts
of companies. I'm very bullish on those because they have
existing giant customer ecosystems that they can push those into.

(19:37):
And then I'm bullish on bank owned stable coins BOVA I.
You know, they've made some announcements. I would imagine JPM
they tokenic deposits. I would imagine like b and Y
and others are also looking at this. And I had
a conversation with someone who works at a very large
US institution maybe three or four months ago, and I
asked him because he's the head of the blockchain stuff there,

(19:58):
and I was like, why aren't you guys doing anything
with stable coins yet? It seems so obvious. And what
he said to me was basically, Kevin, when you operate
at the scale at which we operate, we think a
lot around counterparty risk. And our counterparty risk today when
we hold dollars is the FED in the US government
our counterparty risk when we hold USDC pre IPO is

(20:21):
this tiny fintech startup that's not even public yet called
Circle And granted now Circle as ipo'd there continued to
grow and you know, Jeremy's built up a phenomenal business,
and I wish all the best to Circle. I think
a lot of the giant when we think of enterprise,
like the actual enterprise end of enterprise is looking at
this and saying, Okay, my counterparty risk profile changes from

(20:44):
the FED in the US government to Circle. I don't
think so, but my counterparty risk profile changes to be
of a or to JPM. Great, we already bank at JPM.
We already have two hundred million dollars in corporate cash
sitting at JPM. Okay, we could take a JPM coin. Now,
the counterparty risk profile it changes from a regulatory standpoint
because you know, insurance things change and liability, but your

(21:07):
fundamental counterparty remains JPM or BOVA or Wells or you
know one of the top US money center banks that's
already managing your treasury that you already have comfort with,
versus switching your counterparty risk to someone completely new. So
I'm really bullish on that segment.

Speaker 2 (21:23):
Yeah, and even the circles, right, the small companies now
they come in line because they're being audited and reviewed
because of this legislation. So even if you had some skepticism,
but Circle, this is a small startup. Okay, they got
distribution on coinbase, but it's not like you said, JP
Morgan or some of these big banks. But now they

(21:46):
have to validate that they have US treasuries backing their reserves,
the audits and much more. It just eliminates that friction.

Speaker 1 (21:54):
It creates the consumer protections that I have been missing. And
I think one one kind of more framework that I
think is interesting is the partnership framework. So if you
think about I think USDG is leading the game here
what they've done with the consortium saying Okay, going at
it alone isn't going to work in the market anymore. Right,
That was the twenty sixteen to twenty eighteen play. Now

(22:16):
we need to create critical mass, and maybe we ourselves.
We're talking about you know, people that have large amount
of distribution Walmart, Amazon, et cetera, launching stable coins. Maybe
we're a smaller company that doesn't have that level of distribution,
but if we can pool that distribution with a bunch
of other companies. So you look at USDG and it's
Paxos plus Anchorage plus robin Hood plus world Pay plus

(22:38):
I think Visa. Now I wasn't sure if that was
a rumor or not. Maybe it was a rumor, but
putting together this consortium of companies behind a stable coin
that I think is interesting.

Speaker 2 (22:48):
Yeah. When I saw that, I was like, wait a minute,
this this is interesting because the big names that are involved,
and it's global, you know by the name what is it.

Speaker 1 (22:58):
A global dollar now global dollar?

Speaker 2 (23:01):
Yeah, And I saw Mike Novagrass's firms was also involved
and it's very interesting. So maybe we could see more
of these different types of consortiums create.

Speaker 1 (23:11):
I think there's going to be a consortium play and
I think the consortiums are going to be a winner
take most and today Global Dollar Network was kind of
the first to move right there, the first to create
this consortion model, and they should get the credit for
kind of creating this contortion model. You know, Circle tried
to do it with Center way back in the day
and then it just became coinbasins, but Global Dollar Networks

(23:31):
actually pulled it off. And I think we're going to
see quite a few of those enter the market. And
whether it's USGG that wins or doesn't, I don't know.
But we're you know, we've had the privilege of being
pretty close to that team and we know some of
the way that they're thinking about this, and I'm super
bullish on the way that they're thinking about it.

Speaker 2 (23:47):
Yeah, it's fascinating. It's it's a stable coin wars right state.

Speaker 1 (23:52):
That is you need like some Star Wars soundtrack with
the scrolling credits and the stable coin wars, but that is,
that is what's happened. Look, the most profitable business on
planet Earth by employee is a stable coin. And I
don't care if you're bullish or bearish on crypto. You
gotta like the fact that it's the most profitable company
on Earth by employee, Like in any cfo's office at

(24:15):
any company around the world. That's gonna raise the attention
and that's gonna get serious consideration.

Speaker 2 (24:21):
What do you think happens to Tether? You know, given
at it's King of the Hill, has the largest market share,
It's had some issues in the EU with the MICA regulations.
It sounds like they're gonna be okay to us. The
CEO said they're going to have a top four accounting firm,
do the full audit and all that jazz. Do you
think they lose market share over time?

Speaker 1 (24:39):
So for the US, yes to the top four thing.
Trump also called out Paolo by name when he was
signing the Genius Act. So I don't know what happens
behind closed doors. Unfortunately I was not invited to be
in the room.

Speaker 2 (24:54):
But lut Nick came out, I think at Dablos last
year and said Cantor is backing Tether. We review their reserves.
They have the money, so that's maybe the fix.

Speaker 1 (25:04):
I think that's the fix. And look, I think Tether
has gone through its fair share of struggles as it's grown, Right,
I've been very critical if Tether at points in the
past when I maybe I'm right, maybe I'm wrong, didn't
really believe that they were fully reserved in the right
way that they should have been, and that was kind
of a you know, a general market feeling. I think
if that has been the case, I think Tether of

(25:26):
today is very different from Tether of twenty eighteen. And
you know, I think what Circle is doing is they're
making a big push around regulated environments, so Mike and
the eu US things like that, where they've really tried
to position themselves as and I don't mean to call

(25:47):
Tether unsophisticated, they're not, but Circles really positioned themselves as
the sophisticated stable coins right for institutions, for enterprises. This
is super regulated, this is super you know everything. And
where Tether's done a phenomenal job is in organic growth.
Like I always think of Circle as the stable coin

(26:08):
in the Ivory Tower and of Tether as the stable
coin for the people. Right where they've gone into emerging
markets where dollarization is super important. Argentina, Brazil, Colombia, Mexico,
parts of Latam, parts of Africa, South Africa, Kenya, other
parts there. They've gone really big into Southeast Asia, Philippines
and Thailand and those and they're kind of that organic,

(26:31):
grassroots stable coin where if you are outside the US
and the EU and you ask someone about stable coins,
I don't know if it's it's more than nine out
of ten. I don't know if it's ninety nine out
of one hundred, but it's more than ninety out of
one hundred. People go oh USDT or oh tether and
they have this grassroots, real world adoption by consumers everywhere.

(26:52):
And then tether's gone institutions, enterprises, Wall Street, et cetera,
et cetera, And ultimately, I want to think the people win.
That's what I want to think, you know, That's that's
the feel good story that we tell ourselves. But the
stable coin wars are for sure heating up and will
be interesting to see how this market changes.

Speaker 2 (27:11):
To add to the tether thoughts that you shared, anecdotally,
the vendors I've worked at overseas, they don't ask for USDC,
they ask for tether all the time. They're like, no,
we want USDT. So you're a spot on on that.

Speaker 1 (27:23):
Well, the liquidity is different, right. So one of the
things that we can do on the Borders platform to
show ourselves a little bit, which I think is legitimately
kind of interesting, is we have all these real time
price feeds from all these different people providing stable coin
liquidity all over the world, right, and these price feeds
are not public, So this is kind of like interesting
data that we sit on that a lot that not
a lot of other people see it, especially at this extent,

(27:44):
so across I think, you know, sixty seven countries now
we're seeing real time liquidity feeds on price. And one
of the things that we can do is we can
look at it on a per token basis and I
can tell you what the usd cfx rate is versus
the usdtfect rate, and that's a function of how deep
the liquidity is in those markets. And when you get

(28:05):
outside of the US and the EU, there's pretty significant
price differences between USDC rates and USDT rates because the
liquidity in USDT is so much deeper, the adoption is
so much greater that I think that's the uphill battle
for circle. It's like, yes, you know, if we put
everything on a level playing field, both tokens are worth
a dollar, right, But that doesn't mean that both tokens

(28:25):
are worth the same amount of ZARH.

Speaker 2 (28:29):
That is interesting, and I can see how each other
has that first move advantage there and they put their
stake in the ground. But not so much institutions but retail.
And because this technology obviously makes things a lot better
in moving money, settling instantly, lower fees, why would I
even want to move over unless there's some great incentive.

Speaker 1 (28:51):
Interesting, when everyone's asking for USDT, there's going to be
a price difference. If you have USDC instead, you have
the asset that people don't want. What is the price difference?
And we can actually quantify that in real time across
sixty something countries.

Speaker 2 (29:03):
Wow, So, Kevin, hard question. Are we hitting a one
trillion dollar market cap for stable coins by next year? Oh?

Speaker 1 (29:12):
That is a hard question to answer. I'm gonna answer
a different question first, and then I promise I will
come back to the more speculative question I was talking to.
I was on an NPR segment earlier last week, and
one of the things that I said that didn't make
it into the final edit, which I'm really mad about,
Which is what I'm saying it again, is I think

(29:32):
that over the next five to ten years, the vast
majority of commerce will operate on stable coin rails, and
I would bet almost anything on that fact being true.
I think that where we are sitting today is kind
of the you know, the the Internet in the nineties,
And if you went to somebody in the nineties and
you predicted glass rectangles sitting in all of our pockets,

(29:54):
constantly connected with five G connections to all the world's information,
people would have thought that you were absolutely insane. But
it wasn't one hundred years to get from the nineties
to the twenty tents and now the twenty twenties. And
I think as people we are terrible at understanding exponential growth.
We just assume that everything is linear. That's how our

(30:15):
brains are wired. But adoption is never linear. The pace increases, increases, increases, increases, increases,
and all of a sudden you realize three years ago
this doesn't even exist. Right, Just for how long of
human history have humans been able to fly? It's not
that big of a part of human history. But now
we take going to the airport flying to Singapore for

(30:35):
Token twenty forty nine as a completely granted thing that
the you know, moves all over the world about it. Yeah, so,
I you know, I think we'll hit some very interesting
market gaps in the next twelve months. I actually think
we'll then see our retracing back from that. I think
we are in a hype cycle, so I think we're
gonna see a ton of adoption. I'd love to see
it hit those numbers, and then I think it's gonna

(30:57):
pull back for a few years. And then I think
we're going to see another option wave, and that next
adoption wave is going to make this look like child's play.
You think in that's like twenty thirty, because you have
we just got the legislation. There needs to be R
and D trial and error testing.

Speaker 2 (31:12):
Maybe the bear market wipes out some of the players
who are now running your business well, but then you
know the ones who are building great tech and they
come out of the bear market and they get the
big adoption by twenty thirty.

Speaker 1 (31:23):
That's exactly what I think. I think we've got kind
of a yearish left on this market cycle, and then
we pull back and we go into a bear for
a few years, and that bear is going to be
the perfect time for R and D, for large corporate initiatives,
for a lot of large banks to be building. Right,
the banks aren't going from legislation today to launch products
in twelve months. That's not the speed at which these
institutions move. They move at the speed of years. So

(31:46):
that bear market's going to be a ton of building.
And then then twenty thirty ish bull run is going
to come back, and that's going to be everybody at
an enterprise and institutional level getting into stables. It's not
just going to be the fintech startups.

Speaker 2 (32:00):
Or you know, from an adoption standpoint. I'm curious about
your perspective on this because we talk about the demand
for USDT outside the United States, and people are familiar
with the brand. But are we gonna eventually get to
a world where I, like, I don't think about my phone.
You know, I'm carrying all these apps, I'm connected to
the internet. I'm just gonna move money. I'm not thinking
this is a stable coin. Here's what I can do

(32:21):
with it. But eventually, these big players getting in Western
Union and banks it's just going to move faster, cheaper fees,
and I don't need to think about it.

Speaker 1 (32:29):
Yeah, I'll flip the question back to you. What database
architecture does the chase app use?

Speaker 2 (32:34):
I have no.

Speaker 1 (32:35):
Idea and you don't care. Yeah, exact same thing. I
think in the next adoption wave that we see from
a retail perspective, you may not even know it's a
stable coin. To be completely honest with you, I think
the word stable coin disappears from the lexicon. It's going
to be I'm sitting in an emerging markets country. I'm
pulling up my banking app, whether it's a traditional banking
app or an eobanking app through a fintech, Whether like

(32:57):
I pull up my bank and in my bank three
thousand dollars, whether those dollars are in tether, are in circle,
are in some bank issued stable coin, are actually a
deposit token, or some consortium stable coin. I'm not even
gonna know as a consumer, nor am I gonna care.
All I know is that I, in country X, am
able to hold a balance of three thousand dollars in

(33:17):
USD and I'm able to do that because of stable coins.

Speaker 2 (33:22):
Yeah, yeah, definitely. I mean we've seen the s curve
adoption of technology and the perations. You don't eventually think
about it, Like you said, like you don't think about
going on the internet, TCIP and all that, Right, we
don't think about those things.

Speaker 1 (33:34):
I remember buying something on the internet for the first time, right,
and like that was a big deal to buy something
on the internet. It was like, you're gonna get scammed.
You're never gonna get the package. It's gonna be terrible quality.
They're gonna steal the credit card number and run up
a bunch of other charges. Like I vividly remember my
first time making an Internet purchase. Now, not a thing,

(34:01):
you know, it's the default method for how things are purchased.
I would argue, I've never looked at the data, but
I know in my own personal life probably ninety percent
of the things that I buy I buy from the Internet.
I don't go walk into a brick and mortar store.
It's not a thing anymore. Same thing stable coins today, scary, blockchain, scary,
big deal rug pulls, other things like that. Fast forward
ten years from now, it's gonna be the default way

(34:22):
to move money.

Speaker 2 (34:23):
Absolutely. Do you think though there might still be a
segment of the market, like the early adopters who are
very knowledgeable about this technology and say, hey, I want
to hold USDC on coin base because it gives me
this x amount of ap y YEP per year. There
might be a segment of.

Speaker 1 (34:38):
The Oh, yield's going to be a huge thing, and
yield's not just gonna be a pro user kind of
a function. I think one of the giant benefits that
you have, especially when you think about this emerging markets perspective,
The biggest advantage is, hey, I can hold dollars instead
of my own currency. Right, That is value proposition one.
Once that becomes table stakes, what's next, And the answer

(34:58):
is now I can even earn yield on top of
these holdings. That's amazing, right, And as people who are
sitting here in New York and who live in the US,
we take interest bearing accounts so much for granted, right,
we take our And this was part of the stuff
kind of arguments that I may when you started the company,
where people are like, I don't understand the use case

(35:18):
for stable coins. I'm like, you live in the US,
your default currency is US dollars. Go talk to someone
at Argentina and go ask them why they want a
stable coin. You just can't appreciate that because you live
in the country that owns the global reserve currency, right,
and that's like maybe a cop out, but that is
a super privileged position to be in. And in addition

(35:39):
to being the global reserve currency, we're also used to
being able to open high interest accounts in one of
I don't know, ten thousand VC backed fintech apps that
can sit on your phone. But all of a sudden,
when you bring that into markets where that isn't something
that they're used to, this is transformative for the people
who live there. And I think yield is going to
be the second value proposition for stable coins. The first

(36:01):
is going to be access to dollars and the second
is going to be accessed to yield. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (36:06):
He brought up a great point because behind this genius
or another layer to this genius law being put into place,
is the royal reserve currency, the US dollar dominance, right,
and this providing another avenue for people to purchase US treasuries.
And you got bricks trying to compete and bypass the
US dollar. But now that you put in a digital format, here,

(36:29):
throw it. Throw the wide cast net out there, a
bunch of people around the world are going to be
able to easily access to the dollar, get yield. You
see this boosting the adoption to the US dollar.

Speaker 1 (36:39):
Stable Coins are without a doubt, and I will argue
at length with anybody about this. This is a hill
that I will die on. Stable coins are by far
the best way for the US to export the dollar
around the world. That is a factual statement, and that
is part of why, outside of whatever your political affiliations
are and your feelings about the current administry and things

(37:00):
like that that can be very polarizing, I understand as
a wide range of views, they're outside of that. As
a country, we need to be pro stable coin, and
we need to be pro fully reserved, and we need
to be pro legislation and regulation around issuance. Not because
this is political party A, your political party B, but
because this is the best way to continue and grow

(37:26):
US dollar dominance around the world, and our entire economy
is based on US dollar dominance around the world. If
that is all of a sudden untrue, the quality of
life that we have all come to be complacent in
and that we have all come to enjoy is going
to look very very different from now. And there are people, countries, governments, whatever,

(37:48):
who aren't in first place, who wake up every day
trying to figure out how they're going to be in
first place. You know, there's that there's that great saying
that I that I love. It's like, you know, bad
times creates strong men. Strong men create good times, good
times create weak men, and weak men create bad times.
And I think it's difficult to argue that the US

(38:11):
for the past one hundred years hasn't been good times.
And we've taken a lot of things for granted that
other political nation states haven't been able to take for granted.
And where they're hungry and they're innovative and they're trying
to get to that top spot, we're becoming very complacent.

(38:32):
And as stable coins represents the best way for US
to export the dollar globally, we as a country, regardless
of political affiliation, need to all be all in on
stable coins if we're going to have a fighting chance
over the long term.

Speaker 2 (38:46):
Yeah, And there's so much history behind the US dollar
being the wild reserve currency after World War Two and
how that shifted the entire world, and then they backed
it with Goal and all the other currencies were pegged
to US dollar. And then you have with this technology
the ability for China or folks in the EU or
Russia or whatever to be able to try to take

(39:08):
advantage because it's moving so fast, it's in digital format,
and I can easily push it into different markets. You know,
I was talking to someone about it. You know, with
China developing certain parts of Africa, it's easy for them
to push their digital you want, and everybody there, why
they may not have a computer, they have smartphones, set
up the wallet there you go.

Speaker 1 (39:27):
And these things are happening. This is not tinfoil hat
conspiracy theory, like there are geopolitical battles that are happening
on the nation state level. China is not investing tremendous
and again I'll put my tinfoil hat away, but China's
not investing tremendous amounts of capital into developing markets because
they feel like helping people. That is not what is
going on, right, And there is a very long term game.

(39:49):
And it's not just China, it's others right as well.
You've got the petro dollar stuff, You've got some like
rick stuff, and there are you know more than one
nation state that are actively trying to figure out how
do they disrupt dollar global dominance and put you know there,
whether it's a controltion framework or whether it's their currency,
you know, how do they take that spot? And again,

(40:10):
it's something we don't think about, right. We think about
what's when's my next PTO? What am I going to
eat for dinner? When do I you know, where am
I going with my wife for date night? And I
think unfortunately, I think the same can be said of
a lot of our political leaders where we're not really
in a landscape today that's thinking about, well, what is

(40:32):
the best thing for the US on one hundred year
time horizon. And maybe part of that is because you
have a four year term and you're like, screw, screw
the hundred years, right, I just need to have a
good four years, right. But I think there's you know,
very real long term threats in the US, and then
stable coins are a phenomenal way to mitigate those.

Speaker 2 (40:47):
So do you think some of those risks and threats
have been mitigated by this law being passed? And again,
it doesn't matter politically, why if it was another president,
it doesn't matter, But at the end of the day,
Congress got the bill through given in a president's yep.

Speaker 1 (41:01):
I think that's huge for US, and I don't think
it's too late. Right. Obviously, we're not the first. There's
been MIKA regulations, There's been a lot of other things.
I can't make the statement that the US is leading
the way on stable coin innovation. But if we did
this a decade from now, it would be way too late.
Doing this now we at least we're not first, but

(41:21):
we're in the leading group. We have the ability to
do this. Right. Our economy, in addition to being based
on dollar dominance, also based on innovation. Right. If you
look at the amount of enterprise value that's created in
the world, a large concentration of the enterprise value is
created in the United States. And it does so because
we have an entrepreneurial and innovation culture that allows for

(41:41):
the creation of net new things in the world. And
we should combine that culture with the most important asset
we have, which is the dollar. And if we put
those two things together, we can create some pretty amazing things.
And that's what the entables.

Speaker 2 (41:55):
I want to explore just the perspective of someone, let's
say Venezuela or in some country in Africa. So let's
say I have a friend in Venezuela and he's like, hey,
any help to get something done in my house or whatever.
Maybe I send him one thousand dollars worth of us
DC or USDT with the infrastructure that's being built. Now,

(42:16):
can he spend some of that but also hold some
of that and earn yield, but also put it into
some sort of DeFi protocol and do more.

Speaker 1 (42:23):
Yep, that's exactly kind of what the what the off
ramping part and the DeFi ecosystem's worth. So what you
don't want to do in these markets is you don't
want to do like the old school Western Union thing.
And what the old school Western Union thing is is
I send you one thousand dollars and you in Venezuela
receive Venezuelan currency. Right, One, the transfer is slow, to

(42:44):
the transfer is expensive, and three the transfer fully converts.
And the fully converts piece is actually the biggest issue. Right,
What you want to do in an emerging market that
doesn't have a super stable currency or has a lot
of inflationary issues is you want to be able to
retain as much of that balance as possible dollars. So now,
all of a sudden, if I send you a thousand dollars,
then you need to use a hundred of it. It

(43:04):
doesn't fully convert on receipt. Right, you can say, Okay,
I've gotten a thousand dollars, I'm going to convert a
hundred of it for groceries, rents, fixing the house, whatever
it is that I want to do. I'm going to
hold the other nine hundred dollars still in dollars in
stable coin form, and then talking about yield as the
second giant use case, I'm now going to go and
I'm going to earn yield on this right. And I

(43:25):
may do that through a yield bearing stable coin. I
may do that through a DeFi protocol. I may do
that through some sort of like a lending protocol. Granted
there's counter party, the risk profile change is very differently
on that. But I can start to do things with
these dollars that I haven't been able to do before.
And I think one of the questions is, okay, well,
if you extrapolate this out a decade, would you ever

(43:48):
need to convert it back to Venezuelan currency or would
you be able to pay for everything in dollars, And
there's a really strong narrative going around in the stable
coin space around dollarization that's like, hey, off ramps are
completely meaningless because in the long run everything's gonna be
dollar based stable coins. I don't like that narrative, and
I'll tell you why. When you think about these nation states,

(44:10):
whether it's Venezuela or anything else, a large amount of
the power that the government has comes from the central
bank and controlling their currency. And if you look at markets,
especially markets with strong capital controls, look at India, look
at Turkey, look at these places, there's a lot of
stable cooin adoption happening there. I just don't see a
world in which the Indian government, as an example, wakes
up ten years from now and is like, oh wow,

(44:31):
nobody uses ion R anymore when as well sunset it
and just adopt dollars as a country, That's not happening.
So I do think in the long term there is
probably a digital I in R that things convert to,
but there's still gonna be a need for the infrastructure
that takes that USDC and that converts it to a
local central bank controlled currency. Whether it's a CBDC or

(44:53):
an independent stable coin, doesn't really matter. The point is
countries aren't going to throw their own currency away in
favor of the US dollar. They haven't done that historically.
They're not going to do that in the future. That
completely erodes their country's identity.

Speaker 2 (45:08):
I mean literally, wars were fought over it. Yes, Like
I said, no, one's going to be.

Speaker 1 (45:12):
Like, yeah, armies have died over this. They're not going
to randomly wake up one day and change their mind. Right,
We're still going to have fragmentation. Fragmentation exists by currency, right,
Most countries have their own currency, Most countries have their
own regulatory frameworks and regulatory licenses. So no matter what
the end state is from a blockchain technology standpoint, the
reality of nation states is that we're still going to

(45:34):
have global fragmentation. Right. We also have fragmentation by language.
There was an attempt to create a universal language a
while back, right, Like, these things don't work because there's
so much national identity, national pride, and most importantly, governmental
power that's tied to creating that fragmentation and owning these
things yourself.

Speaker 2 (45:55):
Absolutely, yeah, well put and I don't see the European Union,
and they're creating the digital Euro. They're not going to
give that up. Say oh yeah, just use US dollars.
China digital yuwan are no way.

Speaker 1 (46:08):
China is not replacing the yuon with dollars. If I'm
wrong about that, the world will be a very different
place than it is today.

Speaker 2 (46:18):
But it's fascinating because now you know, I could be
in any part of the world and have a US
dollar savings account, which is going to be game changing.

Speaker 1 (46:26):
That is game changing, and that's why it's the best
way to export the US dollar around the world. Right.
And not only can you have a US dollar savings
account as a consumer, think about companies in these different areas. Right. So, yes,
there's been a little bit more access to dollar banking
on the corporate side around the world, and there has
been on the consumer side, but it's still a hard
problem from a corporate standpoint. And if you think that,

(46:47):
you know, your thousand bucks of savings in an emerging
market country is a big deal to you, imagine what
the corporate balance sheet is as a big deal to
that corporate right. And now stable coins are also simply
changing the treasury game because all these companies in emerging
markets that haven't been big enough to get multi currency

(47:07):
accounts and things of that nature, but have considerably more
dry powder than the average retail individual. They're also looking
at it going, wait a minute, we can protect against
inflation on our entire balance sheet by going to a
stable coin, and then we can start to create yield
bearing programs on top of that, with interest sparing things
with tokenized tea bills, with like you know, Benji and
Biddle and all those different things. The work that Ondo's doing,

(47:29):
and a lot of the tokenizing yield and money market
fund side that's game changing for corporates. And now those
are multimillion dollar ticket sizes versus on hundred dollar ticket sizes,
right wow.

Speaker 2 (47:40):
You know in El Salvador and some other countries, they
tried to do the payments infrastructure with bitcoin, but it
seems like that's all going to be replaced by stable
coins because I don't I have bitcoin. I don't want
to spend my bitcoin. Now bitcoin goes to like two
million dollars and I spend a few said towshe's okay,
but sif like stable coins.

Speaker 1 (47:58):
Yeah, I think the way that I have always looked
at adoption curves is that they happen a step at
a time and to convince people. And I'm long term
super bullish on bitcoin. One of the things that I
think has been challenging is to get people to adopt
a whole new technology paradigm and to get people to

(48:18):
accept a new form of money, even if it is
harder money. To do those two things at the same
time is massively, massively difficult. To get people to adopt
a dollar on a new technology is a much much
easier lift. And once we get people to adopt a
dollar on this crazy new technology, then all of a sudden,
it's a much smaller lift to get them to adopt

(48:40):
a better form of money on that new technology. And
I think, you know, maybe long term that's where that goes. Again,
I think you're gonna have a lot of nation states
disinterested in that. Right. What else Salvador has done is
very unique in the world, and I don't think that
we're going to see a bunch of nation states adopt
a bitcoin standard. Unfortunately, maybe they do, but I do

(49:00):
think that it certainly if stable coins represents a form
of digital payments, I definitely think that bitcoin represents the
best form we have of kind of digital value storage.
But I agree with you. It's you know, it's not
going to become the default payments mechanism.

Speaker 2 (49:16):
And it's like you said, the store of value digital goal.
If I have a goal bar, I'm not spending them
that carrying it around to distort it, right, But I
use my local currency, but that goal bar stays in
my safe. I definitely want to keep it, and I
wanted to appreciate in value over time, but I want
to spend my local currencies just easier. And I feel

(49:37):
like it's the same thing happening with bigcoin.

Speaker 1 (49:39):
Exact same thing. And I think there's massive treasury use
cases for bitcoin right, not in terms of like a
leverage thing like you know some other companies have been doing,
but but I do think that every company, if you've
got a long term treasury strategy, it's going to include
T bills, it's going to include things like that. A
lot of that is dollarizing with stable coins. I think
it really would behove most people to have a long
term treasury strategy that revolves around bitcoin. Right, need to

(50:00):
do the whole micro strategy, like complete dive into the
deep end. But if you're a corporate that's holding one
hundred million dollars in treasury that represents you know, ten
years of lifespan. Why wouldn't you take twenty million of
that and if you don't need it for ten years,
hold it in bitcoin. Right, It really is to use
your digital gold narrative. Like, it's a much better way
to store long term funds. Now. If you need liquid availability,

(50:21):
stable coins are going to be way better for that.
But if you have a long term treasury, I think
it belongs to most people's bounce sheets.

Speaker 2 (50:26):
Yeah, all right. I want to get your thoughts on
the Clarity Act, the market structure bill that is expected
to pass late September early October. What do you think
the impact is going to be on the market for that.

Speaker 1 (50:38):
I think, for lack of a better word, we're finally
gonna have regulatory clarity. Well named act. I guess you know,
cryptoek guy gave us not just genius, but it also
gave us gave us some clarity. And I think one
of the things that's been really difficult for digital assets
here in the US it's been what is the regulatory
framework that applies?

Speaker 2 (50:56):
Right?

Speaker 1 (50:56):
Is it a security, is it a commodity? Kind of
what what happened here and kind of under under Gensler.
I think there was some overreach, right. I think maybe
that's a polite way to put it. There are a
lot of arguments that were made that like, hey, everything's
a security like it just went a little bit nuts.
But fundamentally, that is a very good question, and it's

(51:17):
a question that nobody yet has been able to answer
because we haven't given it regulatory clarity. And if we
can get clarity passed, I really like the concept of
the dual market structure, right, I think that makes a
lot of sense. You know. One of the analogies that
I love to use for like, oh, how do you
regulate a token? Is like, great, how do you regulate
a pdf? Right? A pdf can be an image of
my cats, a PDF could be the title to my car,

(51:38):
a pdf could be a legal agreement. Regulating a pdf
makes no sense. Regulating what the PDF represents that makes
a lot of sense, right. And I believe the same
thing about tokens, and how do you regulate a crypto token?
I think is a horrible question to ask because there's
so many different structures of token. A token is just software,
that's all it is, how do you regulate software? Well,

(52:01):
what does the software do? If the software makes payments,
you probably regulate it like payments. If the software lets
you post funny JPEGs of your cat, you probably regulate
it like a social network. Right, And I think clarity
is some really good first steps of doing that, of saying, Okay,
we're not just going to regulate a piece of software
as this blind overarching thing. We're going to look at

(52:22):
the characteristics and we're gonna say, okay, what does this
actually do? And then based off of what it actually does,
then we're going to regulate it as a commodity or
as a security. And I think we can take that
framework a lot further. And I really hope that this
evolves over time, but I think that's a great place
to start.

Speaker 2 (52:36):
Yeah, I'm so excited to have that in the market.
I know it's not perfect, but it's going to really help,
you know, give the market and builders and innovators clarity
and they can, you know, stop looking over at their
shoulder and just put their heads down and start working.

Speaker 1 (52:49):
Right, that's what we need to do. Short term number
go up, long term builders building, that's what's actually sustainable.

Speaker 2 (52:56):
Yeah, and it's funny. You know, along with stable coins,
we see a lot of banks and big institutions are
now looking to launch crypto services DeFi trading, custody and
so forth, and this bill might spark a huge adoption run.
Just yesterday, Jpmore reports that JP Morgan wants to launch
crypto lending. P and C Bank is partnering with coinbase

(53:17):
to launch crypto trading. It's incredible what's happening.

Speaker 1 (53:20):
These giant institutions that make tremendous amounts of money are
not dumb. They haven't been on the sidelines of this
market because they didn't see opportunities to make money. They've
been on the sidelines of this market because they haven't
had their regulatory clarity to enter that market. And they
understand the size of the target that is on their

(53:41):
backs versus the size of the target that is on
other people's backs. And it's you know, I would imagine
that once those regulatory frameworks are in place, and again
Fleck better word, the clarity exists, we are going to
see over the next year every significant traditional finance market
participants come into this space, and I think that will

(54:05):
rock some of the current incumbents. The level of volumes, connections, technology,
sophistication of some of these Wall Street and kind of
like traditional finance firms is insane. And some of the
you know, like crypto brokerage apps and things like that
that have great volume today. I would argue one of

(54:27):
the only reasons they have volume today is because people
can't do this in JPM or Schwab or e Trade
or other places. As soon as that turns on, I
would not want to be in their.

Speaker 2 (54:38):
Business spot on. I've been talking about this that, you know,
crypto native companies, they better up their game because.

Speaker 1 (54:45):
And I think that's good. I think that's healthy for
the market. Crypto native companies should be winning because they're
providing the best products and services to their customers. They
shouldn't be winning because the competition is sidelined by fear.

Speaker 2 (54:56):
Right. Well put man, I'm excited. I think it's going
to be a great Q three Q four for the
Q three And we got to do another round of this.
Since you are close by, You're.

Speaker 1 (55:06):
Like, it's right up the street. It's perfect.

Speaker 2 (55:08):
Awesome, Kevin Pleasure, thank you for joining me.

Speaker 1 (55:11):
Thank you for the time. Am m H

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