SEC Will Approve Ethereum Staking in ETFs & BlackRock Will File for XRP & Solana Spot ETFs Soon!

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
So I am actually on record saying that I do
believe Blackrock will file for both spot XRP and salon ets,
though we're getting a little bit late here in the
sense of I think again we're getting closer to the
finish line and they still haven't filed. Now maybe.

Speaker 2 (00:23):
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more about Uphold and all the great services they offer,
visit the link in the description. Hey, folks, welcome into
the Thinking Crypto Podcast. I'm your host Tony Edward and
joining me today's Nate Jirasi, who is the president of
Novidia's Wealth Management, which is formerly the ETF Store and
also the co founder of the ETF Institute. Nate, great
to see you.

Speaker 1 (01:49):
It is so good to be back here. I feel
like we have a lot to talk about.

Speaker 2 (01:53):
Absolutely, Nate, there's been quite a few updates, very important
ones from the SEC as it relates to crypto ETPs.
Take it off with the SEC approving in kind creations
and redemptions for crypto ETFs. What does this mean for
the market and you know what type of impact should
we see from that?

Speaker 1 (02:10):
Well, first of all, Tony, I have to mention I
think this took way too long to happen. My sense
was that ETF issuers were ready to handle this from
day one last January when spot Bitcoin ETF's first launch,
but of course the Gensler led SEC wouldn't allow in
kind creations and redemptions at that time, And so I

(02:32):
think the first easy takeaway here is this does show
the continued progress we're seeing around crypto ETFs. Overall, right,
it's yet another step forward, and I do think it's
nice to see a regulator who is making decisions that
benefit investors and they're not necessarily making decisions out of

(02:54):
spite or politics or whatever it was that we saw
all over the past four years ago. So I think
that's the easy takeaway In terms of what this means
for the ETFs themselves, Basically, this will allow them to
run a little bit more efficiently, so you might see
things like tighter trading spreads, tighter bit asks, these ETFs

(03:17):
might track the price of bitcoin a little bit more closely,
those sorts of things. But this isn't going to be
hugely noticeable to investors, only because these ETFs were already
operating very efficiently. But I will say overall, still helpful.
It does make the entire process of creating and redeeming

(03:39):
shares smoother, so it is better for everyone, I would say,
including the ETF issuers. The way to think about this
is it just rings a little bit of cost out
of the system.

Speaker 2 (03:52):
And just to confirm for myself and the folks who
are new to the ETF world. So let's say I
hold the bigcoin and the etherm spot ETFs I want
to redeem. I can get the actual assets themselves, right,
not cash.

Speaker 1 (04:07):
So I'm really glad that you mentioned this because that's
actually a misconception that's out there. And without getting too
far into the weeds of how ETFs work, ETF creations
and redemptions, these are done by large financial institutions, institutions
like JP Morgan in Goldman Sachs, So this is not

(04:29):
something that everyday investors can do. This is handled by
those large institutions, and it's handled in bulk size. Now,
we may get an ETF at some point in the
future that does allow direct and kind creations and redemptions
for the average everyday investor, but that is not what

(04:49):
this approval is. And I'll tell you it's the same.
I always like to compare it to the physical gold
ETF category, So it's the same with physical gold ETFs.
But you might appreciate there is actually a physical gold
ETF that allows every day investors to directly redeem shares
for physical gold bars, and so I wouldn't be surprised

(05:11):
if at some point, again we don't see ANYTF issuer
or two or three attempt to file for something like that.
But as it pertains to this recent approval by the SEC, again,
this is not something that individual investors can do on their.

Speaker 2 (05:27):
Own, got it? And then it sounds like the market
has been waiting for this, the institutional investors who have
been launching these products, so I'm assuming many of them
are going to hit the ground running black Rock, Franklin, Templeton,
Fidelity and much more.

Speaker 1 (05:42):
Yeah, the issuers are all ready for this. The authorized participants,
the aps who I mentioned, who handle this, they're all
ready for this. So that's why operationally, the end investor
is not going to notice anything different. Again, they may
see slightly better spreads, may track the price a bitcoin
or ether a little bit more close, but other than that,
it's just business as usual.

Speaker 2 (06:05):
Yeah, so I wonder why it took so long, but
maybe it's kind of the legacy spillover from Gencer and
now it at Paul Atkins is you know, in office
and he's situated and he's now getting to all of
these things.

Speaker 1 (06:19):
Yeah, they just don't want some of these financial institutions
actually handling bitcoin and transacting in bitcoin, and so they
put the onus onto the etfissuer to go out into
the marketplace and secure the bitcoin. It really if you
boil it down, it's that simple.

Speaker 2 (06:36):
Now, the SECU recently has been delaying some launches of ETF.
So they approve like the grey scale conversion of the
large cap and then some others as well, but they
haven't allowed it to launch. Do you have any insights
there as to why could it be there waiting on legislation?

Speaker 1 (06:53):
Okay, so I have several thoughts on this, and just
to add some context, So the SEC Division of Trading
in Markets, they approved two ETF So one was the
Grayscale Digital large Cap ETF and the other was the
Bitwise ten Crypto Index ETF. And to be clear, both

(07:15):
of these would be what are called conversions or uplisting.
So those funds already exist in the marketplace, they're just
not ETFs, and so what they filed for was to
effectively turn these into the ETF structure. So these were
both approved by the SEC Division of Trading and Markets
and then that approval was stayed by the SEC, and

(07:36):
that just means that that approval order was paused or suspended.
And I think that there's a fairly sizable camp of
people that believe the reason for that is the SEC
simply wants to have a broad framework put in place
to bring spot crypto ETFs to market before allowing ETFs

(07:58):
that own anything other than bitcoin and ether. And actually,
last week, and we can talk about this, you may
have seen this. The three major exchanges, so NAS, NASDAQ,
and CEBO, they all filed for generic listing standards for
Spot crypto ETFs. And so all of that is to
say it's very possible that the SEC, with the gray

(08:22):
scale and bitwise ETFs, they didn't want to deny these
outright because they want to show that they're being forward
thinking and crypto friendly, but they also didn't want those
ETFs to launch until that framework that I just mentioned
is in place. So that's sort of one theory or
or one line of thinking. And if that's the case, great,

(08:44):
Now the other line of thinking, and if I'm being honest,
it's the one that I actually subscribe to, is any
one SEC commissioner has the ability to hold up the
show here, and the reason for that is because these
ETFs were approved under what's called delegated authority, and all

(09:08):
that means is that the SEC staff, the staff, not
the commissioners, made the decision, so there wasn't a vote
among the SEC commissioners. But any one commissioner can come
in after the fact and basically throw a wrench in
the process. And I don't like to pick on anybody.

(09:30):
There's one commissioner in particular who you're probably aware of
who it is, who has been very publicly anti crypto,
and that's Commissioner Crunchhaw. And so the thought is that
she's holding this up simply because she can, or at
least she thinks she can. Now let me just briefly

(09:51):
oud a little more context to even that. So both
of these ETFs, they follow the regular Tory process perfectly, right,
So they did everything that they were supposed to do,
and then they were approved after two hundred and forty days.
And so there's actually now a little bit of debate
over whether Commissioner Crenshaw even has the power to come

(10:15):
in after the fact, after the approval order was issued
and hold up the show, and I agree with that.
I'm not sure that she does have the power to
do that. And I'm not a lawyer, Tony, but my
guess is is if Gray Scale and Bitwise lawyers wanted to,
I think they would have a very strong argument to

(10:37):
fight this. And actually you may remember it was two
three weeks ago Grayscales lawyers they sent what I would
say was a fairly terse letter to the SEC on this,
and it said something to the effect of this being
an improper end a round the framework that was established

(10:58):
by Congress. In other words, they were saying Commissioner Crenshaw
or whoever it was, should not have the ability to
do this after the SEC already issued the approval order. Now,
in terms of bit Wise and Gray Scalegan and the
attorneys evolved and really fighting this. It probably doesn't make
that much sense at this point because I'm assuming these

(11:18):
ETFs are going to be approved in fairly short order anyways.
But it just kind of shows you there's still some
of that legacy thinking or you know, feeling negative feeling
around crypto that still exists within the SEC. So hopefully
that all made sense. It's kind of an interesting story.

Speaker 2 (11:38):
Though, Nate. That's very insightful. I didn't even know about that,
the Crenshaw aspect, that she could throw a monkey wrench
into the whole system. And I think a lot of
people looking from the outside are like, what's going on.
Why did delay? Why the approval but not the you know,
the go ahead to list, And that just makes sense.
And then I think about last week where Paul Atkins

(11:59):
talked about Project Crypto, and they're looking to give more clarity,
you know, maybe all this is going to culminate the timeline,
you know, further guidance in the sc to get all
these things live.

Speaker 1 (12:12):
Yeah, And the other thing to consider here, just as
it pertains to a commissioner throwing a wrench in the process,
is keep in mind what we just talked about in
terms of the SEC approving and kind creations and redemptions,
and they actually recently bumped up the position limits on
the I shares, bitcoin ETF for options trading those sorts
of things. You would think that if they wanted to

(12:32):
wait and have a framework in place, that they want
to approve these other items. And so that that's why
it leads me to believe that maybe a commissioner did
get involved and throw a wrench in the process. But
I think to what you were alluding to a little bit,
this SEC, no doubt, I think they're much more crypto friendly.

(12:54):
We know that, and I think they're going to continue
to be much more crypto friendly moving forward. But this
still isn't a great look for the SEC because it's
making people like me and you have to try to
figure out what's going on right versus just be transparent
and explain what's happening here. I just don't think that
when the average investor sees, okay, well these were approved

(13:17):
and then wait, you mean they're not approved, would say like,
help me understand. It just doesn't give you a whole
lot of confidence around how the process is going. And
so I think optically it's a bad look. Again, I
think where we're heading is to a very positive spot
and so maybe this is just some of that legacy
thinking that's that's carried over.

Speaker 2 (13:36):
Yeah, definitely. You know, personally, I was thinking, look, we
already have clarity on Big one and eh, there's already
spottytfs that exist. But when you add the basket where
you have XRP, Solana, Cardana whatever else, right, there's not
so much clarity there. Not saying that they are securities.
I'm just saying that the sec has not come out

(13:57):
formally and said, hey, these are good to go, and
were they waiting for the market Structure bill to get
passed and then they piggyback on that. But then the
deadline's in October, so it's they're cutting it close here,
so I guess we'll have to wait and see.

Speaker 1 (14:09):
Yeah, And let me just at a quick point on that.
The problem that I have with that, Tony, is that
if you look right now, you can buy leveraged futures
based XRP and Solana ETFs, and so take the grayscale
digital argecap ETF. It's going to own more than eighty

(14:30):
five percent in bitcoiny either because those are the two
largest cryptos, and so it has a smaller allocation to
XRP and Solana and I think it's Cardano. But you
can already buy those futures based leveraged out there, and
so it just shows you there's still some of these contradictions.
The other thing this gets a little in the weeds
on the ETF side, but I think it's worth pointing

(14:52):
out is that earlier this year, the SEC allowed ETFs
to own private assets, and the way that that's set
up is that they can own up to fifteen percent,
and say private credit and stage treets try to get
creative to own more than that. But the point that

(15:13):
I'm trying to make here is that if you have
an ETF where you can own up to fifteen percent
and a liquid private assets, then what's the difference. If
you have an ETF that owns, say bitcoin and ether
over eighty five percent that the SEC has already proved,
and then let's just call the other fifteen percent liquid assets,
which I would dispute that I don't think XRP is

(15:33):
a liquid or solano is a liquid, but you get
my point. Let's just assume that it is. What's the
difference here. So again it's just these these inconsistencies or
contradictions that still exists. Again, I think they're getting resolved,
but we're just in that sort of crossover period right now.

Speaker 2 (15:48):
And to that point, the other thing I was thinking
about personally was historically the SEC has gone a round
of we need to see a future's market set up
for bitcoin and ether before we approve the spot. Most recently,
I think a month ago or more. XRP and Salona
ets one live on the CME and in other platforms
as well. Do you think part of it is that too?

(16:08):
Would they want to have some space between the futures
being launched and then going live with the spot.

Speaker 1 (16:13):
That may be part of it, But that also gets
into the generic listing standards and the crypto framework I'm
talking about, because if you look at that, it's basically
saying something to the effect if you have regulated futures
contracts trading on a particular crypto assets, and maybe there's
a six month period, I can't remember exactly what it is,
then that would be part of the framework to then

(16:36):
allow the spot crypto ETF to come to market if
there is an underlying futures contract, again trading, not a
regular exchange. So again, I think all of this stuff
sort of ties together, and I'll just reader it. I
do think we're getting We're closer to the finish line
on a lot of this than we are at the
starting line.

Speaker 2 (16:56):
Yeah, for sure, it's just a matter of a couple
of months, almost right the dead in October, so sooner
than later.

Speaker 1 (17:03):
I thought this was going to be, uh, the the
crypto ETF summer and it's now looking more like crypto
ETF fall.

Speaker 2 (17:10):
Yeah for sure. Now let's talk about inflows for big
one in eth etf Spot ETFs. We've seen some incredible
numbers in July. Obviously there's going to be your healthy
rebalance of outflows, but the volume, the amount of money
coming in has been growing. You know, what are your
thoughts on this and how it's outperforming traditional trap fi

(17:30):
ETFs if you want to call them that.

Speaker 1 (17:32):
Well, just to add some numbers around that, so you're
to date, spot bitcoiny ETFs have seen about twenty billion
dollars and inflows and spot ether ETFs have taken in
around seven billion. And what's amazing about the spot ether
ETFs is that up until last week they had had
a twenty day inflow streak going took in new money

(17:52):
every day for twenty days, and just in that streak
they took in over five billion dollars in new money
and combines. So if you look at both bitcoin and
eat three ETFs together, it was a record month for
spot crypto ets Here's we may have talked about this before.
What's amazing to me about this as we sit here

(18:14):
today is there's still limited access out there. So in
other words, there's a lot of larger advisory platforms wirehouses
where their advisors don't have full access to be able
to recommend these products to end clients. Of course, Vanguard
famously still doesn't allow them on their brokerage platform. And

(18:37):
here we are. You look at the numbers that these
these are putting up. It's unbelievable. It's like they're doing
it with one hand tied behind their back. So I
still think that we're very early here. I think that
I'll speak from an advisor perspective. If you go and
talk to advisors, they're certainly warming up to bitcoin. I

(18:58):
think they're warming up to eat. But Tony, there's still
a long way to go on education. Advisors are very
diligent about what goes in the portfolio, as they should be,
and they really have to understand an asset, they have
to believe it's going to add value, and they have
to be able to explain it to their end clients.

(19:21):
And so I still think that a lot of that
education is happening. We're still early in that.

Speaker 2 (19:27):
Wow, it's pretty incredible that to your point, still early,
but the influence have been just massive. So I'm curious
on your front at anecdotally, are you seeing more demand
from your clients already asking about crypto given that crypto
is going more mainstream legislation is getting passed and things
like that.

Speaker 1 (19:47):
There's no question because if you look at what is
in the headlines now to your point, you pick up
any mainstream media publication or go to their website, you're
probably going to come across some discussion, some articles around crypto.
And so you do have a situation where is more
mainstream investors hear about it, They're going to start asking

(20:10):
questions about it. And that's why I've always said from
day one, if you're an advisor out there, regardless of
whether or not you want to own crypto and a portfolio,
you better be able to talk about it because your
clients are going to ask questions on it. So yeah,
I think that's helped. And you know, at some point too, Tony,
think about we had the Genius Act, you know, recently

(20:34):
signed into in the law, right stable coin legislation, which
I think is you from that just high level that
looks very bullish for ether and so if you kind
of connect those dots, those sorts of things are going
to have clients and investors going Okay, well, I understand
that the Genius Act is going to help stable coins.

(20:56):
Stable coins are tied to ether and so of that
help me understand all the connections there. And so you
know that's going on now where you have people trying
to connect the dots on everything happening in crypto. So again,
I know I'm a broken record. I just think put
any sort of price predictions aside. Where you thinking where
you think we're out on price, I think we're still early.

(21:17):
And just the overall adoption here and the overall education.

Speaker 2 (21:22):
Yeah, and when you think about like the S curve adoption,
just even historically, I remember I was talking to Congressman
Franchill about it when they passed the Telecommunications bill in
nineteen ninety six, still had another four year run where
Google and Amazon, all these companies started growing. And yes,
you had your dot com bubble burst, but it took
a while for all these things to be built out.

(21:43):
So if we were to align some of the timeline here,
you're now getting legislation, so the runway has to be cleared,
vital legislation for these folks to innovate and build. So
there's still so much to be done.

Speaker 1 (21:55):
There is, And again it gets back into what we
were just talking about, even on the crypto ETF side,
where we have these major exchanges trying to put in
a framework to allow additional spot crypto atfs to launch.
So how does the general public field when we have
an XRPETF and a Salana ETF and you start going
down the line we're going to have index based crypto ETFs.
All of that too, is just going to help in

(22:19):
this awareness of mainstream around crypto. That's why I've always
called ETF's bridges between trad FI and DeFi No, I've
told you that before because it's a way for trad
FI investors I me using that in er quotes to
sort of get comfortable with crypto and learn about it.

(22:41):
It's like crypto with training wheels, and at some point
they start moving across that bridge to where perhaps they'll
be interacting directly in the crypto ecosystem versus through a
trad FI wrapper.

Speaker 2 (22:54):
Oh. Absolutely. Now, going back really quick to e theorem
you mentioned like the stable coin bill being positive for
ETH because obviously a lot of stable coins are built
on eth and E layer twos, right, but the yield,
the staking component still missing from those ETFs. Do you
think once that's approved we could see a surge in
inflows into the etherier metfs. And you know, do you

(23:17):
think that might be approved within the same same timeline
as the spotyts or the other all coins.

Speaker 1 (23:22):
I definitely think it will help because that right now
is yield. Even though the yield overall is pretty small,
that's still return that you could have that you cannot
achieve or you cannot access through an ETF forrapper, And
so once you have that, I think that will certainly
help in terms of approval. Yeah, I actually think that

(23:43):
this is the next item on the SEC's checklist. I
expect them to approve this before we see any other
approvals in the crypto ETF space. And they actually recently
acknowledged the I shares ETHEREU in EAT if they have
a filing right to add staking, the SEC acknowledge that,

(24:04):
and so sort of what I was talking about with
the end kind creations of redemptions. This is a pretty
easy item to cross off the checklist because staking is
something that ETF issuers they could have handled last July
when these launch, and so the issuers are ready to go.
And the other thing is that you may have seen

(24:26):
there's now a Solana ETF that has a staking component
that actually is live in the marketplace, and I definitely
won't get into the details of all that it used
a very unique structure sort of an end a round
to come to market. But that same issuer they have
an ether version which I think they can launch any day.
Don't quote me on that, but I'm pretty sure they

(24:47):
can bring it to market if they want. And the
point of that is that I don't know that the
SEC likes the idea of these other ETFs being in
the marketplace that offers staking, where it's not the tradition
what's called thirty three act structure that all the spot
crypto ETFs operate under. I don't think the SEC necessarily

(25:07):
likes having those products in the marketplace when they haven't
improved staking for everyone. And so again I just feel
like this is an easy item for the SEC to
cross off the list. And as you know, the SEC
has already said that staking on e that's not a security.
Issuers are ready to handle this, so that there's really

(25:27):
no reason to continue the lane, and I don't think
the SEC.

Speaker 2 (25:31):
Will Yeah, to your point with that Salon ETF, I
think they did it via c Corp or something like that,
some kind of structure.

Speaker 1 (25:38):
Yeah, I mean they use a forty act structure. There's
a Cayman subsidiary. Yeah. It gets a little complex, and
the ETF works exactly the way it's supposed to do.
It's fine, it's exactly what you get. There is some
some items to be aware of around taxation. But you know,
I think the optics of that again where the SEC

(25:59):
basically they couldn't stop that from coming to market and
they're still working through some of these other issues. Again,
it's optics tone you kind of what I was talking
about before, right, I just don't think the SEC likes
the optics of that, even though they've created some bad
optics on their own. There's just no reason to continue
delaying allowing staking and spot ether ETFs. It's again, in

(26:22):
my opinion, a very easy thing for them to approve,
and I think that's what they will do.

Speaker 2 (26:29):
In addition to this other ETF route which they don't
don't necessarily one out there. You have publicly traded companies
are adding ether to their treasury and you're taking the
staking yield and they could pay out with as dividends
or reinvest it. So like why would you not having
any have it in the ETF? Like what's the whole up?

Speaker 1 (26:50):
Couldn't agree more?

Speaker 2 (26:52):
Yeah, it's pretty crazy. I wanted to ask you. This
is a bit speculative, but we've seen black Rock. They've
jumped in and you know, behind these these ETFs folks
are curious. You know, are they going to file for XRP,
Salana ETF. Do you think they're going to do it
or are they going to wait?

Speaker 1 (27:09):
So I am actually on record is saying that I
do believe Blackrock will file for both spot XRP and
Salon ets though we're getting a little bit late here
in the sense of I think again we're getting closer
to the finish line and they still haven't filed. Now,
maybe they're waiting for that formal framework that we talked

(27:30):
about to be put into place and they're going to
swoop in at the last minute and file for these.
But here's how I would describe this. Blackrock right now
is the clear leader in crypto ETFs. They have the
largest Bitcoin ETF by far, they have the largest ether
ETF Blackrock Historically, if you look on the stock side

(27:54):
of the equation and the bond side of the equation,
they are definitely proponents of an index based approach to
the markets. Right. In other words, they would you know,
one of their biggest ETFs is an S and P
five hundred ETF or an aggregate bond ETF. They believe

(28:15):
that indexing is an appropriate way to access different asset classes.
I don't know why they would view crypto any differently,
and so here's where I'm heading. I would expect them
to launch an index based crypto ETF. And if you're
going to do that, then it seems like you would

(28:37):
have the standalone spot crypto ETFs as well. So that's
part of my thinking. The other part is more just
defensive from black Rocks position, and that, as I mentioned,
they're the leader with spot bitcoins spot ether ETFs even
though I Bitcoin's not going anywhere. You would probably mount

(28:58):
a strong argument that ether is, you know, looks like
the longer term winner of tokenization and stable coins and
all that. We can debate that, but but we don't
know that for sure. Right, it is possible that you
have another chain that comes along and maybe they become that.
And so if you're Blackrock, why you're basically saying, we're

(29:19):
already declaring the winners. If you're not going to launch
any other crypto ETFs, does that make sense? You're saying
it's it's bitcoin, ether and nothing else. And I don't
know that they're in a position to do that. I
don't know that anybody's in a position just to definitively
make that statement. And so from a defensive standpoint, if
I'm thinking about their business, why would you not launch

(29:41):
these other spot crypto ETFs in the event they you know,
they do continue to catch on with mainstream investors and
maybe more importantly, just catch on and DeFi and you
know all the stuff going on there. So hopefully that
makes sense. I still think that they will file for
those and launch both of those, but I will say

(30:03):
we're getting a little bit late here in the process.

Speaker 2 (30:06):
I absolutely agree with you, and I'll add they added
their money market fund to took nice money market fund
to multiple blockings. They started with eth, they've expanded to
Solana and others as well. So they clearly believe in
multi chain world and interoperability, So why not have the
ETFs reflect that as well.

Speaker 1 (30:25):
Right, and you know you and I again, we love
the cryptosphere and everything going on here. But if we
just peel back to a very basic level, what does
blackrock like to do? They like to make money, right,
And so even if they believe, if let's say they
truly think XRP is some sort of scam or Salona

(30:45):
some sort of scam, it's not the centralized whatever. That's
not what they're in the business of determining, per se.
And so I do think at some point it comes
back to that. And we have seen decent demand for
futures based xrptfs and Salon ETFs, and I mentioned early

(31:05):
earlier there's been decent demand there. You know, most investors
they want to wait for the real thing, but I
think there's been enough demand there that would say we
should see pretty good demand when the spot XRP and
Salta ETF's come to market.

Speaker 2 (31:18):
To your point of blackrock likes to make money. Just
years ago, they were all in on ESG. Now they're not.
Now they're all in a big one, right. They flipped
because they are going to go where they can make money.

Speaker 1 (31:30):
Yeah, though I will say I have no doubt cryptos
here for way longer than ESG ever had a chance.

Speaker 2 (31:37):
To be absolutely nate, always great insights.

Speaker 1 (31:41):
Man.

Speaker 2 (31:41):
I really appreciate your knowledge and what's happening, and I'm
sure we're going to have another conversation very soon.

Speaker 1 (31:48):
Don't doubt that. Yeah, I always appreciate it, Tody, thank
you for having me. Awesome

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