Stablecoins & Crypto Are Leading the Financial Revolution! with Charles Cascarilla

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
And so I think in some ways this is like
a big bank two point zero, and you know, maybe
the Genius Act might be looked back as Brentwood's three
point zero because you now have the capacity to finally
democratize access to central bank money. Central bank money is
cash in your pocket. There's no real liability to cash
in your pocket, there's no counterparty risk. You have it.

(00:22):
It's issued by the central bank.

Speaker 2 (00:29):
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(01:10):
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(01:31):
learn more about Uphold and all the great services they offer,
visit the link in the description. Hey, everybody, welcome into
the Thinking Crypto podcast. I'm your host Tony Edward, and
we're recording at Station three in New York's Financial District,
and my guest today is Charles Cascarilla, who is the
co founder and CEO of Paxo's. Charles, great to be
doing this in person with you.

Speaker 1 (01:52):
Yeah, likewise, great to be here, Charles.

Speaker 2 (01:53):
We've spoken two three times over the years under some
dire circumstances with a previous admitdministration. And now it's a
brand new day and I'm really excited to dive into
stable coins, what Paxos is doing, what the Genius Act
means for the market, and much more. But how are
you doing.

Speaker 1 (02:10):
I'm doing great. It's certainly a new day. Yeah, you
know it was grim there for a while, but things
have taken like a whole one to eighty degree shift here,
and it's awesome to really see this new environment.

Speaker 2 (02:21):
Unfold absolutely now. I know you're usually based in Miami
and now you're up in New York. So it seems
that business is good. Your phone is ringing off the hook,
maybe with the Genius Act passed.

Speaker 1 (02:31):
You know, our business has two different aspects to it.
One is a regulated custodial infrastructure business and the other
is the issuance and stable coin side, and to be
honest with you, both have dramatically shifted. I mean, if
you came in from another planet, you wouldn't believe what
our pipeline looks like compared to six months ago.

Speaker 2 (02:47):
Wow.

Speaker 1 (02:48):
And you know, partly that's because every financial institution now
wants to think about how can they use a custodial
infrastructure product to maybe launch crypto b cell hold Sure,
which we have done the past for firms like Mercato
Libre or Interactive Brokers, PayPal, Venmo, New Bank, et cetera.
And so lots of financial institutions are looking to launch

(03:11):
because they recognize that the crypto asset class is something
that is not going away. It's not going to be prevented,
and they need to make that asset class available to
their customers and how can they do that and how
can they do that quickly? Customers like Charles Shab and
Morgan Stanley, potential customers have been out talking, you know,
about how they want to do this. But every large

(03:33):
financial institution is thinking about, well, how can they play
catch up here? How can they make their either private
clients or their retail clients have access and interestingly, maybe
their institutional clients is a little more of a lag.
And that's the infrastructure side. And on crypto and of
course on stable coins, you have lots of different firms
from Stripe to PayPal, to MasterCard and Visa who are

(03:55):
trying to think about how can they enable stable coins
and a lot of times they want to use regulated
wallet for that, and that's what we're providing, sure. And
then on the other side, the issue inside is what
was impacted by what you were talking about, which is genius.
And that's definitely shifted the landscape because now it has
created a legal framework, not just a regulatory framework or

(04:16):
a guidance or policy. It's not created a legal framework
and that's really a different level of certainty than has
ever existed before. Of course you've had that in Europe.
It's not really quite as usual friendly as what happened
in the United States. And it's unlocking I think a

(04:37):
huge wave of innovation that was already building. You know,
the adoption curve for stable Point was happening before the legislation,
but you know, you're now just getting a huge turbo
boost rocket behind it to keep pushing it. And we
think the Genius Act is a really good piece of
legislation because it's setting the standard that we already set. Yes,

(05:00):
and I think we've talked about this in the past. Yes,
we're a regulated issuer, and that means that we are
issuing from a financial institution. We don't just have licenses
like my transmission licenses like Circle, or no real licenses
like Tather. We have a set of licenses that match
what the Genius Act has already said as a standard,
which is a financial institution, a trust company where they

(05:23):
were able to issue out of And actually we have
it in many different jurisdictions, not just here in New
York but also in Singapore. A would ab be the
EU and so that's quite unique, and that puts us
in a position to really have a lot of great
conversations because firms are trying to figure out, well, what
should they do for their stable coin strategy? Now, should

(05:43):
they go issue a white label stable coin like PayPal did?
And we have issued, you know, really the most successful
white labels in the market, and so lots of firms
are thinking about it. And we've also and you know,
we're always issuing this infrastructure as white label products or
whether it's a wallet or on the issue side, and

(06:04):
we we issue for PayPal, it's their name on it,
they go to the market, we do the everything underneath
the hood. And we also have issued for the Global
Dollar network. We issue the Global Dollar USDG. It's a
little bit different than a pure white label where it's
just one person's name on it. This is more brand
agnostic Global Dollar and it has about sixty eight firms

(06:24):
that have joined it. Now there's a couple hundred more
in the pipeline, so it's growing quite rapidly. And that's
everyone from MasterCard to robin Hood to world Pay, to
Anchorage and Okax and crack in, you know, just lots
of different types of crypto firms that are involved, and

(06:44):
fintech firms and of course payment companies, and I think
you'll see some banks and brokers join as well. And
the unique model there is that it's a federated model.
Everyone can join. It's open to anybody, and anyone can earn.

Speaker 2 (06:57):
The economics hard question, which model do you think ends
up winning that network participant with where you kind of
have more distribution, or does single issuer or does room
for both.

Speaker 1 (07:08):
I think there's probably room for both, you know, I
think how the stable cooin market evolves is really an
open question. I think there'll probably be thousands of stable coins,
just like there are hundreds or even thousands of prepaid
cards and loyalty reward programs, and so you know, when
you have low cost programmability, you're going to get I

(07:29):
think diffusion, and you're going to get dispersion. But I
think there will still only be maybe at least two
as many as five large stable coins. And I think
it could certainly be a white label stable coin, and
I think it could certainly be maybe something that looks
like more of a consortium stable coin like USDG. Of course,

(07:51):
there's also a tether and circle out there. I think
there's advantages to white label model, which is that you
have a single firm that's issuing in and so they
can put their weight behind it, they can make it
their focus. They can say this is our top goal.
And when someone does that, it creates a huge amount
of leverage and results. You know. The downside of a

(08:15):
white label model is it has your brand on there,
and so there are competitors, no doubt to you. And
when there are competitors, will they feel comfortable using your
stable coin or not? And so how much does the
benefit of having a single firm that's focused lean against
or outweigh the fact that you're going to have like

(08:37):
some tension there with other companies or other institutions that
will look at it competitively. I mean, it's certainly something
that can be overcome. You know, USDC is an example
that where mostly economics go to coinbase. Although I'll tell
you that in the case of USDG, part of the
galvanizing influence has been many of the firms who joined

(08:58):
didn't really feel like they do a white label, but
they found it and they continue to find it intolerable
to be paying coinbase, right, I mean, distribution yes. I mean,
if you go down the list, you know, essentially Clemy's
learning about sixty five or seventy percent of the economics
from USDC and everyone knows this. There's no secret here.

(09:21):
It's the public how the economic relationship is set up there.
And so if you're in exchange that's competing with coinbas
or by the way, a chain or a wallet or
you name it, payment company, they kind of do everything.
It's a really difficult position to be in where essentially
your business activity is funding your competitor. It would be like,

(09:42):
you know, Bank of America paying JP Morgan for Bank
of America's own deposits, right, I mean how long would
you want to live with that? For as little length
of time as possible, And so that's a difficult position.
But yet USCC has flourished even though that means, you know,
you're funding a competitor. So that means a why label

(10:05):
model can certainly work. But I think people are a
lot more sensitive to the fact that, you know, certain
types of activity might end up putting you in a
you know, a more difficult competitive position. And so whether
by the way, it's the USDG Consortium, there are a
couple of bank consortiums that are out there. There's a
Global Bank one, there's the zel banks that have talked

(10:27):
about this. You know, there's a lot of incumbency in
the financial system and they could, you know, easily weigh
in in a way that could be very determinative.

Speaker 2 (10:39):
So on that note, we've heard from Bank of America's
CEO they want to launch a stable coins CD bank
as well. What do you think with their stable coins?
Do you think it's more within their banking rails or
they're going to try to push that in the open
market to have retail use it.

Speaker 1 (10:54):
It's very interesting, not talking about any one firm in particular,
but I would say generally the largest firms don't want
to launch their own stable coin. Uh, there's still a
little bit uncertainty. There's still potential brand risks that they
perceive from maybe having their name on it as opposed
to using something that might be a little more abstract

(11:17):
like an ACME dollar, right, and so you know, you
they might want to launch their own stable coin within
their own ecosystem and have it be part of a
common rail that everyone else might be using as like
the ACME dollar or whatever. Might be sure or it
could be USDG or some different mechanism. We've seen examples

(11:38):
where firms come in and say, we'd like we have our
own UI. We're gonna call it, you know, the Tony
dollar in the Tony ecosystem, because we control that, but
it's really just USDG. We just put a new name
on it, and then you know, when they want to
send it out, it's sent It gets sent out is USDG.

(11:59):
It keeps USDG under the rails. We don't have to
do anything. So we can just have our own name
on it in our ecosystem. Nothing changes, and if they
even want to withdraw it as some other stable coin,
they could too, and so it could be a building block.
You could do a white label, you know. You could
of course join a consortium. So there's many, many different
ways to mix and match here, because you're really getting

(12:22):
into programmability and that cost that programmability is actually not
that high. It's much higher once you want to make
it a fully regulated, your own stable coin, but not
where you just want to make it for your own little,
you know, kind of world that you're controlling.

Speaker 2 (12:38):
With the Genius Act pass and many institutions are approaching
you now to figure this all out. What's their level
of urgency. Is it we want to dip our toe
into water, or we need to plunge in because we're
worried about disruption.

Speaker 1 (12:52):
It's interesting, I would say it's generally plunge in, but
it kind of depends on the institution and what plunging
in would mean strategically. So if you said, oh, we
need to be able to launch crypto by cell hold,
there are number of stitutions that are just saying, well,
plunge in. It's clear, you know, do you for the
next three and a half years, You have regulatory certainty,

(13:15):
you have you know, policy certainty that creates a really
clear playing field in which you can invest in, and
the asset class isn't going away. So you're like, look,
we just got it, we just have to do it,
and they're just in. And it's really not that complicated
because say you have a high net worth or private
client business or retail client business. You know, you just

(13:37):
need to add another asset in there that they are
able to trade. They can trade stocks, now, they can
trade some crypto assets and maybe just start with bitcoin
and ethereum. Not even that controversial. Sure plunge into that,
right and you might even be saying, I'll plunge into
allowing stable coin funding. Two for I've enabled a crypto
by cell hold. Where it might get a little so

(13:58):
we get a little more cautious is where it could
strategically impact the core business. So say you're a core
transactional bank. You know stable coins could have like some
nonlinear outcomes to your business, so you need to be
very strategically aligned on what you want to do. So
it's not so much that they're not going fast, but
they're trying to be very thoughtful about making sure that

(14:20):
they're taking the right steps because if you just plunge
right into something where it could undermine or you know,
completely shift your business model, you know you want to be,
you know, very thoughtful and prepared. You know, that's kind
of measure twice cut once. It might not be a
one way door to mix a lot of different metaphors altogether,

(14:42):
but anyways or euphemisms. So I think that's the But
I think it's very clear all of them are very
focused on this genius is very important because it helps
make there be clarity around what you can do in
the stable cooin space. The clarity bill is you know,

(15:03):
the next thing that is really needed. I mean, it's
gonna great clarity on what assets are what. Yeah, and
that will matter because most I was talking to one
of the defive exchanges on Solana and they were telling
me how they add thirty five thousand assets a day

(15:26):
a day. So no one's gonna add thirty five thousand
assets in a day. There's millions and millions on to
say Solana just alone. Right, Yeah, it's unbelievable, the Cambrian
explosion you've had in assets. But you're not just gonna
add only bitcoin in the theory, You're going to add more.
This is a real asset class. You need to make
it available. Having clear roles and rules. What can you do?

(15:49):
Who can do it? Is it a security? You know
which regulator is involved? Is certainly needed in order to
make this more broadly, more broadly available in the financial ecosystem. Obviously,
everyone can go to a coin base in the US
or a Kraken or a Gemini or whomever and be

(16:09):
able to buya sell a lot of assets. But you
can't do that maybe a lot of traditional financial institutions.

Speaker 2 (16:16):
But also do you think in the stable coin world,
which blockchains do I put my stable coin on? Right?
Which blockchains are? Okay, the clarity I can give that.

Speaker 1 (16:27):
Certainly, Yes, Well, because the last thing you want to
do is put your stable coin on a chain where
it's a security and so now you have securities laws
that you might might come into play, you know, and
you know there could not be the enough de centralization
or other things that might undermine the ability that chain
to succeed. And so we're an infrastructure provider, so in

(16:50):
some sense we're going to put assets onto chains that
our customers want. But on the other hand, you know,
you have to also be Ford thinking and help guide
the conversation, and so you want to make sure that
you know when you do and everyone has to do this.
You do these risk assessments. Okay, well, here's why this
thing makes sense. And because we're a regulated issuer, we
submit those and we do all this work on them,

(17:11):
and it helps to have those chains create a level
of confidence and you know, a perimeter of like being trustworthy.
And you know, if you don't know what those rules are,
you know, it kind of makes it a little drift,
a little tricky, a little tough.

Speaker 2 (17:28):
For sure, do anticipate this is a hard question. The
Clarity Act gets past his fall, and then we see
this massive boom and innovation.

Speaker 1 (17:36):
Absolutely, I mean I think you're seeing it now, by
the way, but there's still some uncertainty of how you
would handle that. So I mean handle like you're the
innovation that's happening because someone wants to create a foundation
and so they're doing it some offshore entity and then
they create a labs entity. Like can you collapse all

(17:57):
those things down? There's certainly like a school thought that
you can now. But you know, certainly with the right
rules set into place, then you can have the confidence
if you're a developer sitting in the US not to
have these offshore entities, not the hire people offshore. You
can bring this innovation back into the US market, and
you know, really there's ways you've been able to create

(18:21):
the possibility of decentralization over time. Right now you'll have
a legal process to be able to do it right
that exists in the United States and that really hasn't
been here before. So I think you'll see, you know,
just a whole new wave of possibilities that coming to

(18:42):
be because you don't have the friction of the cost
of maintaining all these different entities and all these different things.
I think everyone I have talked to says, you know,
it's really clunky. You have a foundation, you have a labs.
You know, how do you do this? How can you
use like the concept of centralized over time it decentralizes,
or it is decentralized already at the very beginning. How

(19:05):
can you use that ability to create network effects through
having shared economics from the very beginning really work for
a wide range of business models. And you know, in
some sense we've had a bunch of examples of where
that has succeeded, mainly in chains and some other areas,

(19:26):
but it hasn't truly been unleashed, I think yet.

Speaker 2 (19:29):
So it's on that note, I want to double click
on the collapse possibly of labs and foundations and maybe
just a traditional business model. But there's more transparency with
the regulator. Maybe the coins are any smart contract or
some sort of treasury, but we don't have to worry
about the foundation and the labs and all these things.

Speaker 1 (19:48):
I think that's the problem is in order to create
enough separation, you end up creating a lot of opacity
for tokenholders. It certainly something you could overcome, but you
can't over come in hundreds and hundreds of cases. I mean,
you know people won't have so much time. Yeah, So
you want to create standardization, right, I mean, like I
remember when like VC fundings, everything was like bespoke, right,

(20:10):
and now you have like these safe notes. You just
try to make things standardized so that you can modularize
and have building blocks and pieces and so you know,
there's kind of an unknown system now between labs and foundations,
et cetera. But it's clunky and it's complicated, and if
you're outside, like you might not truly understand what's going on.

(20:31):
Whereas now you have rules that are set up. You
know there'll be some way you matriculate through the system
from centralized to decentralized. This is your regulator, This is
what you do. This is how you make the disclosures.
Everyone does it, and you know that creates liquidity and
consistency and a simple set of knowledge base for the
market to be able to function off of.

Speaker 2 (20:52):
Sure, Yeah, that definitely makes sense. And I'm curious to
see what the SEC comes up with. I know they
SEC and the CFDCs they've been doing a lot lately,
crypto sprints and much more. And I you know, I
know there's a Crypto Task Force meetings with a lot
of folks. Have you guys met with the SEC and
things like that.

Speaker 1 (21:10):
We have met with the SEC about a bunch of
different things. I think, you know, there's so many ways
in which this can unfold, for both stable coins and
for traditional crypto assets. And you know, you don't want
to have dual registrations that be a little clunky with
the SEC and the cftc uh. You know, you want

(21:32):
to you know, maybe be able to do one and
have it like work with something else. Or there's been
talks of would you combine these agencies together or could
you have one person who runs both of them, or
you know, just there's different ways in which you try
to simplify things, because we're getting into a place where
the river has the ocean here between securities and non securities,
and you know, how do you handle that in a

(21:55):
way that is not really cumbersome and makes things harder?
You know? I think there are other examples of things
like yield bearing stable coins that I have been a
little hot to the touch, Yeah, that I think are
really important innovations that are inevitable. You know, it's you know,
it's such an interesting thing. Stable coins and yield bearing

(22:18):
stable coins. The SEC has money market funds, and a
money market fund is basically a stable coin. It just
only can trade down an exchange from nine point thirty
to four, right, I mean, but it's basically and so
it has limited utility outside of an exchange. You know,
you certainly can't use it for everyday payments, but it

(22:38):
pays interest and there's like eight trillion dollars of these
and it's not destabilizing the system or whatever I mean.
And so there should be a way that if you're
lending money to the US government through some common pool,
that you should be able to get the interest back,
you know what I mean. It's like a little crazy that.
You know, only banks can pay interest or on things.

Speaker 2 (23:00):
I was going to ask you about that or a deposit,
because they in the Genius Act, they left out the
yield bearing So was that to protect the banks? So
that's a controversial question and topic.

Speaker 1 (23:10):
So the way genius reads, and this is our you know,
I think clear understanding of it. You can't pay interest
to the end user, but you can pay interest to
a distributor or intermediary, and then they can they can

(23:31):
pass it on to their end user in whatever way
they want as rewards as like I don't know, airline,
I can pick up whatever they want. Uh, they pay
it to their end user, and you know, it can
be a different amount, it can be for all kinds
of different things and be trading credits, whatever it is.
And that's what's going on the daman coinbas is paying
a big yield right now. You know, paypals has been

(23:54):
out publicly talking about how they pay yield. You know,
lots of institutions paying yield, So that's not like a
crazy thought. You know. I think there was a world
where everyone went to a bank and so a bank
had a banking exemption from being a security. That was
the whole point. But remember a bank deposit. We should
just throw the word deposit out. It's such a confusing term.

(24:16):
All it is a loan you have made a loan.
A loan is a security. If you basically loan money
to a bank, they don't have to give you any
disclosures because they're highly regulated. Whereas if you loan money
on a consistent basis, that's a common offering. You have
to do a securities filing. Banks have a banking exemption.
That's fine. We get why they have an exemption, but

(24:37):
it shouldn't be that it's an exclusion for other people, right.
And part of the reason why the banks have exemptions
is because they're highly regulated. You lend them money. They
don't even necessarily pay you that much interest. Right, But
they're probably riscuer in the US government, except if they're
too big to fail, then they are the US government.

(24:59):
Maybe everyone's to be to failed now, But in any case,
you know, if you lend money to a bank, you know,
it's called a deposit, but you get some interest rate
and you can withdraw whenever you want. If you lend
money to the US government, it's somehow called a security
and you can't get paid interest. If or if you
do get paid interest, it would be a security, but
if you don't, then it's not a security. That would

(25:20):
be a stable coin. Or you can lend money to
the US government and a money market fund, and then
you know, that's a fine mechanism, but it can only
trade on a New York Stock exchange or stock exchange.
So I mean these things are like, you know, really
convoluted because of the weight of history, and they really
should be addrassed and common sized. Of course, you know,

(25:43):
banking institutions have a lot of incumbency, and you know,
I could understand why they feel like they're heavily regulated.
So let in institutions that are not regulated. But now
with the Genius Act, stable coin issuers are regulated just
like banks. They're regulated just like banks, and in some ways,

(26:05):
a stable coin is the safest dollar you can hold
in the whole world, because if you hold a money
market fund, which is kind of a dollar, they go
buy t bolls. They actually can hold five percent in
things that are nine dollars. They can hold things that
have longer maturities. A stable point issuer can only hold
in three months or less T bills, overnight repo and

(26:27):
bank cash and so like a short term repo. That's
actually more restricted than a money market fund, and it's
also more highly regulated because you're issuing from a trust trust, yeah,
which is a banking institution. So it's safer than a
money market fund, and it's also safer than a bank
because they're not making loans to you know, I don't know,

(26:50):
subprime housing or some securitization or who knows what a
personal loan. There's no loans that are being made. If
you're a stablecoint issue to the US government, it's the
only thing you're doing. And because you're issuing it from
a trust, you're just buying the security of the US government.
There's no risk to the issuer. You're not a general

(27:12):
creditor when you deposit money at a bank, when you
loan money to a bank, you are a general creditor
just like anyone else who loans money. And this concept
that stable coins are scary, they're actually the least scary
thing in the financial system. They are non fractional money
that is more prescriptive than a money market fund and

(27:33):
more regulated.

Speaker 2 (27:34):
Yeah, you get away from the fractionalization of banking and
all that.

Speaker 1 (27:39):
Yeah. I think that's one of the biggest advantages is
we can now finally have a financial system that is
not based entirely on fractional money and that has created
too big to fail, that has created systemic risks, that
creates bank runs and accelerator effects, And so you can
now have the payment system be fully reserved through stable coins,

(28:01):
and you can have the banking system, lend money or
the lending system have fractional elements to it, and we
even see this in DeFi by the way, with like
looping strategies. So you can have a fractional system, but
it's very clear that the base of that system is
not fractional. The base of the system is fully reserved. Today.

(28:22):
The base of the banking system, aside from cash that's
in your pocket, is electronic money that's all been fractionalized.
You can't hold your money anywhere else. You can't have
a payment system that isn't using fractional dollars. Now you can't.
And so this is actually a huge innovation that allows
I think a separation of church and state, you know,

(28:42):
fractional and non fractional in a way that creates more
safety and soundness. And eventually you should be able to
have yield on this non fractional asset because it's just
you're lending money to your own government. You should be
able to get the interest rate on it as easily
as possible. I think that's a winner as on a

(29:03):
political basis for consumer benefits right across the board.

Speaker 2 (29:07):
Yeah, and it fixes maybe some of the legacy problems of,
like you said, too big to fail, right, maybe these
are problems of the past, and we have the technology,
we have the verifiability to transparency now to build a
better system. And on that note, it feels like this
is another Bretton Woods moment, a change in current how
currency is handled and the dollar as well. And then

(29:29):
if you want to call the Nick Sceonnario where he
took the money off the gold standard, this feels like
one of those moments. And then with the US dollar
also you mentioned with the treasuries, we're now no longer
maybe as dependent on China and other countries Japan to
buyer treasuries, but we got stable coin insures.

Speaker 1 (29:47):
I think it's so fascinating because I think there's a
couple of things going on. There was this thing called
the Big Bang, which was a deregulation the financial system
that happened in the eighties, and it kind of like
created likenk, the junk bond mar market and all kinds
of trading of new assets and things. And so I
think in some ways this is like a big bank
two point zero, because when you get the Clarity Act pack,

(30:08):
that'll be big bank two point oh sure, And you know,
maybe the Genius Act might be looked back as Brentwood's
three point zero because you now have the capacity to
finally democratize access to central bank money. And so when
I say central bank money, central bank money is cash
in your pocket. There's no real liability to cash in

(30:30):
your pocket. There's no counterparty risk you have it. It's
issued by the central bank. Banks have central bank money.
They're called federal reserve dollars. They're the only ones who
are allowed to hold these things. They're basically reserves, and
so they hold them at the FED. No one else
is going to get access to them. It's only held
through the banks, and so that's why you're always tied

(30:52):
in the freshal bank system. Now stable coins are fully
reserved dollars that anybody can hold, and I think that's
a huge innovation in the financial system. And that's why
stable coins have two benefits to them. One is that
they're a better rail. That's because blockchain is a better rail.
So dollars are on a blockchain. It's a better rail.

(31:14):
It's twenty four to seven, it's instantaneous, it's basically more
or less free, you know, almost a penny or less
it's fully programmable, which matters a lot in the future
agentic economy, and it's transparent, so it's a better rail.
That's what blockchain is. But because it's a fully reserved dollar,
it's also a unit of account. So you can now

(31:36):
hold a fully reserved dollar on your phone or your
iPad or whatever you want, and you don't need to
have a bank account anymore. So you're able to have
an account structure and a better rail at the same time.
And that's been codified into law, and so that allows
you to build business models in a way that didn't
exist before in the financial system. And I think that's

(31:57):
really powerful for the dollar. I think that is going
to lead to the dollarization of the world in a
way that we haven't even expected. There's one hundred trillion
dollars of M two in the world. Twenty two trillion
dollars of them are dollars, so it's one hundred trillion total.
It's growing ten percent a year, so that you know,
basically means like one hundred and fifty trillion in five years.

(32:19):
And you know how much more dollars can now exist
because you know of that M two. Because of stable coins,
a lot more trillions and trillions more. That's a good thing.
You usually have a lot of debt issue. It's a
bad thing because it enables those issue a lot more debt,
you know what I mean, which we probably shouldn't be
doing so in some ways, this could you know, enable

(32:42):
the dollar to be unsustainable even longer. But you know,
you know, you got to solve one problem at a time. Yeah,
and so you dollarize the world. You know, that's a
good thing for issuing US dollars nominated debt. Maybe at
some point you say, you know what, a dollar isn't

(33:04):
only backed by US government debt, It's also backed by bitcoin.
It's also backed by gold. Technically a dollar still is
a little bit back by gold because it's on the
Fed balance sheet now, but you know, practically speaking, it's
mainly treasuries. You know, sometimes the dollar has been backed
by sieves and maiden lane and all kinds of junk

(33:24):
bond assets that they bought in different crises, so you know,
they've the dollar has been back by a lot of things,
not just treasuries. The stable coin is actually in some
ways even safer than money that's been issued technically by
the Federal Reserve.

Speaker 2 (33:38):
Maybe the future generations can solve this problem with the
baseline that we see.

Speaker 1 (33:42):
I wish it was going to go to future generations.
I suspect we're all going to have to live through
this difficult state of times ahead of us for sure.

Speaker 2 (33:49):
Together Now, with regards to demand for stable coins, is
it primarily around the US dollar or folks also looking
at hey we want to do to us? Do you
wi also want to do a digital euro or whatever
it may be.

Speaker 1 (34:03):
This gets asked all the time, and you know, in
some ways I've been puzzled by it, but that maybe
the narrative that would backward justify the fact that the
two hundred and sixty billion dollars of stable coins, you know,
ninety nine percent of it or more is US dollars.
There is certainly a benefit to scale, but I also

(34:26):
think everybody wants dollars. And if you are in Europe,
you have access to euros and they have good rails,
they have real time payments. Sure, if you're in Singapore
you have access to Singapore dollars, they have good rails.
If you're in China you have access to wan u
want they have, you know, very good rails. The US

(34:50):
we don't have very good rails. It's even worse rails
if we try to move dollars outside the US. The
dollars are the lingua franca of the financial system. Eighty
percent of FX transactions have the dollar on one side,
so it's everyone's using the dollars. It is used, you know,
as the universal currency, but it has the worst rails.

(35:12):
So on the one hand, you need better rails. Blockchain
rails are better than what we have in the basically
the dollars dollar financial system. You don't have that problem
in other places, So there's a need to get on
for a better rail in certain use cases. Not if
you've got to go down to the grocery store and
buy some groceries in the suburbs, but if you want

(35:32):
to send money cross border, you know you and that
could be consumer remittances, it could be business payments if
you need to do FX transactions at the touch dollars.
If you're a holder of dollars outside the US, you
know you need to be able to move them around fast.
There's lots of leads and lags, and the other issue
is people all want dollars and they can't get them. Yeah,

(35:55):
you know, if you're an Argentina, no one's I don't
know anybody who goes I really want the euro. So
then you need a euro stable coin because it's a unit,
it's a state, it's a unit of account, uh you know,
an account structure, and it's a rail. So I don't
know anyone are they all say they want dollars? How
are you gonna get dollars? What was physical cash? Now
it happens to be tether. If you're in Turkey, maybe

(36:16):
there's a little interest in euros, but it's really dollars.
If you're in the Philippines, you want dollars, right, no one,
So nobody wants euros let alone. Does anyone want like
the pound or I mean the Swiss franc or you know,
And then you go down even further into like really
off the run currencies because there is some reserve elements
of euro or pounds or Swiss francs, but not enough
because those are big institutions. They just hold. It's the

(36:38):
normal way you get to the consumer level person or
the business level person that has to do transactions, it's
all dollars and they don't have access to dollar accounts
they have, so a stable coin solves something for them, right.
I mean if you basically are like, well, what's the
unmet need them? Mene is I can't get any dollars.
I want a dollar, right or I can't get what

(37:00):
I want? Which one is it? It's a dollar and
then I can get a stable coin.

Speaker 2 (37:03):
So Charles, the clients that work with you, like PayPal
and others, is your strategy to go to these countries
in Latin America maybe Africa, and it's not set up
a bank account or set up an account, but download
my app and set up a wallet so that you
can transact with these stable coins or access crypto. It's
like more of wallet base versus account based.

Speaker 1 (37:23):
I think you're seeing a lot of that. There's a
lot of firms.

Speaker 2 (37:26):
You know.

Speaker 1 (37:26):
You can imagine if you're like a phone a company,
you have a you could easily have a wallet installed
automatically in any one of the different phones from the phonemakers,
you know. I think if you are a financial institution
and you're kind of only in one jurisdiction, you can
now have make a wallet of all for anyone to
be able to download and be able to hold on
their phone. So you have this capacity now to you know,

(37:50):
it's called a wallet. I mean it is a good analogy.
It's basically, you know, you can have a digital wallet
now that you control. Yeah, and you know that could
be associated with another financial institution, but you control it,
and so you can create a lot of functionality for
the end user without them having to be in your system,

(38:10):
because they'll be in on their system, and so you're
creating new ways of interacting with customers that haven't existed before. Previously,
if you want a paypalc coount, you had to be
on PayPal. Now maybe you, as an example, could have
your own wallet that's associated with your PayPal wallet and
you can move funds right into it, and you know,
the same thing kind of go on on and on.

(38:32):
Companies that weren't even institution financial institutions can now offer Yeah,
what will be a self custody wallet.

Speaker 2 (38:38):
It's fascinating. How do you see this playing out with
a lot of these issuers, everybody trying to get their
stable coin in the market. Will there be some consolidation
eventually because there's too much saturation.

Speaker 1 (38:50):
I think you always end up consolidating as you get
later in a cycle because the cost of organic growth
is more than the cost of inorganic growth, you know,
because you can basically buy businesses and you cut out
all the costs and you keep the customers. Right. But
I think you're at a moment now where the cost

(39:12):
of organic growth is less than the cost of inorganic growth.
There's a lot of high valuations for businesses, so you
look at like, what like the valuation of businesses versus
you going out and just growing your business through natural
organic activity, and you know that's the better ROI right now.
So different parts of the product and the industry cycle

(39:35):
create different situations. I mean, you know, like like you
think about the airline industry. There are so many airlines
like thirty years ago, Yeah, now there's like four or
five of them, you know. I mean, like, so the
best way for them to be able to grow was
a consolidate. I mean, that's why you end up having
any trust laws or whatever ends up doing because then
there's no competition. They just jack of prices. But you know,

(39:56):
there is an element here of I don't of where
you add in the cycle. I don't think that's where
we're at today.

Speaker 2 (40:02):
Sure it may be like ten years from now.

Speaker 1 (40:05):
It could happened fast it could happen slow. I mean
it's gonna be tough. I mean, you know, what's really
a wildcard that's hard to handicap is AI and you know,
agentic commerce, agentic activity. If everyone in five years might
have fifty or one hundred agents working for them, how
many of them are gonna have wallets?

Speaker 2 (40:22):
Right?

Speaker 1 (40:22):
How many? So I mean you're not limited now by
the number of people. Yeah, you know, you're limited by
the number of agents that a person is going to
have to be able to activate and use. Clearly they're
working for a person. But it's gonna you know, even
proliferate more, and how you would use it will completely change.

Speaker 2 (40:41):
And not even not just the AI agents. I just
interviewed the CEO of open Mind. They're building like an
Android software for robots. The humanoid robots are coming, and
that robot has three crypto wallets built into it, right,
and downloads its constitution from any theorem smart contract. So
if I eventually ten years now, shall we have humanoid
robots in our home, go to the store and get

(41:02):
me something. It's not going to pay you a.

Speaker 1 (41:04):
Cash So Isaac, as mom was coming here fashion that
I thought it's unbelievable to have the three laws next.
But you know, it's pretty cool what's going to happen
and to who knows. You know, there's a reason all
these science fiction movies always end up in a war
with the robots. But anyways, it's you know, certainly going
to proliferate the need for both stable coins a internet

(41:30):
based financial system. I think that logic is more true
than ever. I mean, if you basically step back and
you basically said, you know, you should have all assets
be freely accessible to everybody, obviously in a trustworthy way,
but all assets should be freely accessible for everybody on
a global basis. Yeah, and you know, if everything's moving

(41:50):
on an open internet based system, why wouldn't the financial
system move that way?

Speaker 2 (41:56):
So, Charles, you know you're mentioning five years from nound
twenty thirty. I walk into Starbucks, Am I paying with
a wallet that has stable coins? Or am I still
using a credit card power wallet but in the back
it's using stable coins? But as the end user, I
don't care TCIP. I don't need to know the functionality
to pipeline. You just need to know it works well.

Speaker 1 (42:16):
First of all, I agree with you. You don't need to know,
you know, tcp IP or what database you're using in
the background. I don't even think you'll know that you're
using a stable coin. It could be it's kind of
like what habit do people have in twenty thirty. I
think that's always very hard to tell because it's harder
to shift than you think. But the underlying rails will
almost certainly, I think, be a stable coin. Then it

(42:39):
could be you might be using your debit card and
it's just pulling right from your exchange or whatever wallet,
bank account. You know, exchanges and all these terms are
basically banks, though all become banks in the future or
something like it, or have bank arms. You know, there
is coming building up from a different direction, but it
will all end up looking the same, you know, whether
it's a reve little or coin based or whatever. In

(43:00):
my opinion, they're all kind of like a bank functionality,
which is like we hold your assets, you want to
go spend your assets. You're going to go spend those
assets to buy things like goods and services. You're going
to go buy assets. But it's going to be a
universal application and everyone's basically you know, putting them into place,
and you know, you're not just buying or selling or

(43:21):
holding it, you know, just so farmes you want to
lend it out and there you have it. You basically
have like the equivalent of like a full service institution.
And you know, that's where crypto has created inroads into
the new generation that all these traditional institutions by in
my opinion, fighting it completely put themselves in a terrible
position because now you have hundreds of millions of customers

(43:43):
that have gone into the crypto ecosystem with crypto wallets.
They have to all play catch up to where the
world has gone and how the new generation is shifted,
and they're actually way behind the eight ball because of that.
And so when you then fast forward to the genesis
of your question, which is, well, what are you going
to pay with? Well, if everybody is, you know, essentially
using a crack and coin based Gemini, you know, revolute

(44:05):
account whatever, you know, pick your company, you know they
might it's gonna be on your phone. You have your wallet,
you know, you you just you tap and pay, You
tap and pay with your phone. Yeah, so you might
not pull out that card, but you know, you got
a lot of like there's a long tail people, you know,
maybe everyone's not gonna have that, They're gonna need a
card for certain merchants or whatever, so they could issue

(44:27):
a card too, and you can have a card and
you have your phone and you know, pick your poison.

Speaker 2 (44:33):
And on the flip side of that, Charles, if I
have instant settlement with payment and I don't have to
wait for settlement from a bank or whatever, and I
don't know, I don't need a credit line to fund payroll?
Can I pay people every day they go straight to
their wallet their paycheck.

Speaker 1 (44:48):
There's really no reason why you couldn't pay every single day.
I mean, there's there's historical reasons why you couldn't every day,
but you actually could pay everyone every day. Why you know,
why pay every two weeks? Right?

Speaker 2 (44:56):
Right?

Speaker 1 (44:57):
You know all these things that had built in flags
were for operational reasons. Yes, uh, there's no like economic
reason why it needs to be that way. But you know,
you might not be connected collecting your revenue every single day.
So if you know, if you collect revenue every single
day in real time, you could pay some expenses in

(45:18):
real time. There are like some leads and lags. Some
businesses sure you know, would then need to like fund
that payroll they're paying every day because they haven't collected
all their revenues, all right, So there's like some elements
of like.

Speaker 2 (45:28):
You know, dayla two day lag maybe.

Speaker 1 (45:31):
Yeah, or just how's what's real time? What's not? How
does it work? You know? I think there'll still be
the need for credit, you'd just be able to access
it in a different way than you have before. You
can imagine world where why do you need a credit
card if you can do buy now, pay later for
basically anything and you have stable hont rails. Yeah, stable
hont rails must buy now, pay later equals why do

(45:51):
you have a credit card going through you know, a
traditional you know payment network.

Speaker 2 (45:56):
Sure, and this is a controversial topic, but it seems
the technology is here to handle this problem. There's talks
of UBI possibly in the future, because AI and robots
are going to take a lot of jobs away, and
not everyone is going to be able to have the
same jobs they've had now in the past. But with
stable coins, the government can send money directly to a wallet.

(46:19):
You know, do you think that's a possibility.

Speaker 1 (46:21):
Well, yeah, it certainly makes it easier. You could done
PvP loans and a whole running things better if the
government's using you know, verifiable wallets that they were sending
stable coins through, not a CBDC. But on the other hand,
you know, I don't know if that's what will end
up happening, because you know, if you look back, you know,

(46:44):
I don't know one hundred years ago and you basically said,
this is what the world would look like, and oh, yes,
we're spending all of our time worried about, like, you know,
how to create a stable coin. You know, look how
wealthy the world has become. Yes, it looks like we're
playing trifling games and what a certainly looked like that
five hundred years ago or a thousand years ago. But
we find new ways to, like, you know, keep ourselves
busy and come up with ways to create economic value

(47:07):
and solve problems. Now I think you could maybe have
dislocations in the labor market. But my suspicion that you
never know, it could be different this time, is that
it'll look like other ways of innovation. You know, you
look at the construction economy today, it's twenty times more
productive than the services economy. And so I think of
software as basically the construction equipment for the services economy.

(47:30):
So now you're just getting automation, and like, no one's like,
oh I wish everyone was digging ditches with a shovel, right,
No one complains about that. Those jobs went away, new
jobs showed up. You know, anyone was working in a
steel mill wasn't like, oh, I want my kids to
work in a steel mill. You know, you talk to them.
They were making good money, but they said, I want
my kid to go, you know, be a teacher, or
go be a lawyer, or be a doctor, or I
don't want them to work in a steel mill. And

(47:51):
now you're gonna be like, well, why was I making
them sit there like look at the computer all day
along doing this task that was so repetitive. I wanted
to go do something different, and they're gonna be able
to go do something different. I actually think that's what
it will look like. And so we only can understand
a set of problems based on the perimeter that we
can see. But I actually think that the possible solution

(48:13):
set is infinite, and we're looking at a finite set
that we have drawn and basically said, I don't see
the solution in here. I guess it's gonna end up
being Malthusian, But it's actually infinite possibilities, right, and we'll
come up therefore with infinite ways of doing things in
the future that will use people.

Speaker 2 (48:31):
Yeah, that definitely makes sense. Well, we always find new avenues,
new roads, and new ways to be creative, and.

Speaker 1 (48:36):
It's happened every single time. I mean, maybe this is
time is different.

Speaker 2 (48:39):
Yeah, well, we'll have to wait and see. I wanted
to talk about the tokenization market because aside from tokenizing dollars,
you're also tokenizing gold, and I want to get your
thoughts on updates there, but also what's next real estate?
What else do you see getting tokenized?

Speaker 1 (48:55):
Well, we definitely have tokenized gold now for a long time.
We have a just had a billion dollars like yesterday,
necessarily a good sign for the dollar. But gold hit
an all time high. We're almost at an all time
amount of ounces, and so the billion dollar gold stable
coin is something we're really proud of. I certainly think
there should be more assets that are tokenized. It's basically

(49:15):
the largest non dollar uh, you know stable coin that's
a real asset is our gold stable coin, And you know,
I think there should be more. I mean, silver has
always has been a small market. But that's a logical thing,
is to do silver and then maybe platinum palladium. Sure,
but those gold is really a pretty giant ASSEI class,
like twenty some trillion dollars, where silver is a little

(49:38):
bit more of an industrial medal and it's smaller. Sure,
it's really more about flow as opposed to stock, right,
but still like held for monetary reasons and for you know,
a lot of historical reasons. I think that you're seeing
a lot of conversations around equities. People tried to do

(50:00):
real estate in the past. Real estate is a big equity.
Real sorry, a big market cap, but it's not all
that standardized. So when I think of the adoption curve
for real assets, there is some combination of what is
the size of the market cap, Like you could look

(50:22):
at goal twenty trillion dollars and how fungible is each
unit of it, So you could try to create like
this building is not fungible with another building, right, Yeah,
you know, at least we haven't figured out a very
good way to do that. You try to kind of
do it, but it's not all that simple, and so
it's not that real estate is not a big asset class.

(50:42):
And it's not that you couldn't solve a lot of problem,
a lot of problems by essentially putting chains of title
on and you know, being able to understand interest payments
and solve a lot of operational complexity by putting it
on chain. It's just that what tends to get pulled
on chain is where you have a bility to create liquidity. Yeah,
and it has something that's big, it's you know, so

(51:05):
that that liquidity that you're creating is meaningful enough for
people to to try to drive it.

Speaker 2 (51:10):
Yeah, because not well, I mean globally we recognize stocks,
gold as these assets. But real estate, I don't know.
Not everybody may want to invest in real estate or
real estate in certain places because I don't think it's
possible to tokenize every you know, jurisdiction. Maybe it isn't
a future.

Speaker 1 (51:31):
But you can go to all the land registries in
every county registrar and you can put them all on.
And you can do that for cars too, by the way,
And I think that's great. You're solving I think a
little more of operational complexities. Sure, that will lower friction,
lower costs, It will make things better. I think it's
a very real use case for it.

Speaker 2 (51:50):
But like liquid markets, maybe not.

Speaker 1 (51:54):
I think it's a little bit like so if you
basically told me, okay, you tokenize Apple or Tesla, one
of the MAGS seven and you know, trillions of dollars
in market cap in each one, you know, and you're
in Brazil, you want a dollar? You know what do
you want to do once you get that dollar? Or
I'm going to hold that dollar? Well, maybe I want
to own a fraction of an Apple share. So by
tokenizing Apple shares you could create much wider ownership of

(52:16):
maybe the top ten or top to one companies, which
is basically, by the way, like half the SMP. Anyways,
so you're like, well, you know what are you just
tokenize the S and P And you'd be like, well,
you know what, I couldn't get access to Apple stock
now I can. I couldn't get access to dollars now
I can. You know, you'd probably also be like, I
wish I could get some access to some yield, and
you know, you want to you know, yielding stable coin,
or you want to be able to put into a

(52:36):
lending pool. So I think those are kind of the
things where you see the liquidity benefits and an unmet
need happened, whereas I don't know that if you fractionalize
this building, what is the exactly is the unmet general
need you have. I think you're solving some problems for

(52:57):
uh the owners, but maybe not in the same pressing
way that you have by tokenizing dollars or even tokenizing
some of the largest companies in the world.

Speaker 2 (53:09):
Yeah, that definitely makes sense. I wanted to ask you
about your application to in looking to convert the ny
DFS Trust charter into a national charter under o SEC.
What that means, that what that will mean for your business.

Speaker 1 (53:23):
So there's really a couple of different ways that you
could create a national trust. One which we did before
was submitted to NOVO. Application to NOVO means but basically
new from new in Latin. And you could do a conversion,
which is the other way, which is take the one
you have and you can convert it. And so there's

(53:44):
like pros and cons to each thing, you know, but
every time you have a new regular entity, there's more
costs and there's more complexity and you know, segregations that
you have to do. So it is not always easy
to just create new regular entities. We've tried to do
that and justictions that are outside the US, not so
much in the US, though we did that in the

(54:04):
past because we thought it would be simpler. But I
think with the passage of the Genius Act, it's pretty
clear that you have stronger benefits to being an OCC
trust because you don't have to go get a waiver
from the state regulator. It's a higher standard to have
an OCC regulated trust as a result, and so just

(54:27):
converting the one we have makes it easy because you
literally just take what you have and instead of the
New York being the regulator, the next day, the OCC
is the regulator, but everything else stays the same, sure,
and so that's easy, and you know, we really look
at that as a way to make sure that we're
meeting the highest regulatory standards, which we've always tried to do,

(54:47):
and do it when that is available.

Speaker 2 (54:50):
And on that note, anything on your roadmap you want
to highlight that we can expect in the coming months
or so.

Speaker 1 (54:55):
I think the most exciting things that we're seeing are
the option of stable coins and the adoption of crypto brokerage.
So we talked a little bit about howeveryone wants to
launch Buy Cell Hold. There's gonna be some great, big
customers that are going to come online that everyone will
find very exciting towards the end of this year, maybe
beginning of next year. And then on the other hand,

(55:16):
we look at what's going on in the stable coin world,
and you know, obviously Tyler and Circle have the biggest
market share today since we had to wind down our
Binance Dollar, and we're in a position now though where
I think some of the stable coins that we have
in market are in a position to really grow and

(55:37):
take market share and kind of reclaim the position that
we had in the past, which was you know, really
on par I think, you know, if it was around
the day, would be the winning stable coin.

Speaker 2 (55:46):
Any chances are relaunching that Binance US dollar.

Speaker 1 (55:49):
That I don't think can happen, you know, for different
regulatory reasons, but I think we're in a position with
some of the products we have in market now to
get to that type of skie.

Speaker 2 (56:00):
I'm very fascinated by the Global Dollar network, just because
the consortium there's so many big players and they have
to distribution. So I've been watching that one closely.

Speaker 1 (56:09):
Well. I think it's a very unique model because part
of the reason why you want to have your own
stable coin is because you're not just getting the interest
on your own balance is that you can get anyways.
You're getting the interest on the balances that other people
are holding that are not in your system. So that's
why you know, you really want to have a white label,
because otherwise you're not really doing anything except for you know,

(56:30):
maybe simplifying your eternal books and records. So you want
to have it because you get the off platform interest.
And you know, that's what's very powerful for coin base
with USDC as an example, and that's of course also
the cost to everybody else. With USDG, it's set up
where anybody can join. It's not exclusive. You can use

(56:51):
any other stable point you want to. But you join,
you have one hundred million dollars of balances. You get
the interest on that unless our asset manager fee, which
about thirty or forty basis points, and you know, you
send that out to somebody else. And let's say you
send fifty million dollars off to somebody else. You still
now you only have fifty million dollars of balances, but

(57:13):
that other person is not part of the Global Dollar
Network and guess what, you can get the interest on
those balances. So you get the interest on balances that
are not on your platform if they're not in a
Global Dollar Network member wallet, and so you will still
earn the interests if you had one hundred million dollars

(57:35):
of balances, even though you only have fifty million dollars
in balances. So you're getting the benefit of the off
platform that you created. And we do that by looking
at net minting and making sure there's no double counting.
But the point here is that network effects can accrue
to everybody that joined the Global Dollar Network, not just
to one company or not just to some companies. It

(57:58):
benefits to all companies. And I think that's a very
novel way of approaching this because you have a network
effect problem when you're launching stable coins, which is how
do you get people to want to use it? And
you can pay them for their own balances, but you
know the real kicker is you can pay them for
balances that they're responsible creating. So you in this case

(58:19):
might only have fifty million dollars on your platform, you
have another fifty million you created. You're earning is if
you had one hundred million dollars of balances. So you're
earning more than the risk free rate on the balances
that you're holding, because you're earning you know, double in
that case. So you know, you go out and create
a lot of balances and they're not on your platform,
you're getting paid as if they are. And so I

(58:42):
think that's a very powerful economic alignment mechanism, and that's
certainly why we've seen such a large uptake. Sixty seven
institutions have joined now because it creates the federated economics
of a white label. Yeah, and that's why called the
Global Dollar. We issued the Global Dollar for the Global

(59:04):
Dollar network, you know, just like we issue for any
other single firm. It just happens to be a group
of companies. And so I think, you know, there's a
lot of interest in being able to get the benefits
of your own stable coin without having to go through
all the work of creating your own stable coin, because

(59:24):
it is hard to do. Yes, if you want to,
if you're trying to get to scale.

Speaker 2 (59:29):
Yeah, that absolutely makes sense. Final a question here, Charles.
A lot of companies go in public circle, most recently Bullish.
Does paxos have any plans.

Speaker 1 (59:38):
No plans today. I think plans in the future, but
not plans today, you know. I think right now, our
goal is let's be heads down, let's do the best
job we can for our customers. There is an enormous
amount of opportunity here, and going public is not easy
to do. You know, it does create a lot of distractions,
it creates a lot of benefits. I think there's a
time and a place for everything. I don't think that

(01:00:00):
time is now, but the time is in the future.
I mean, I think there really is a much different
approaching this administration to getting public and what the opportunity
is if you are public, and it's something that we're
definitely watching closely. I mean, it's been really exciting to
see how many companies have been able to come out

(01:00:20):
and what the receptivity has been.

Speaker 2 (01:00:22):
Yeah, it's been amazing. Charles, always a pleasure, great stuff.
I'm looking forward to this. Updates come later this year,
and we have to have.

Speaker 1 (01:00:29):
A lot of fun. I'll come back, Yeah, we'll talk again, I.

Speaker 2 (01:00:31):
Know, Yeah, for sure. Thank you, looking forward to it.

Speaker 1 (01:00:33):
Thanks for having me

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