May 17, 2024 • 11 mins
Does it have to be all or nothing when it comes to cell phone uss in the classroom? Dr. Simon Sherry is a clinical psychologist, a professor and a dad. And he takes on the pressing issue of cell phone and social media usage in schools. We delve into the pervasive impact of mobile devices on children's sleep, social relationships, and classroom learning. Dr. Sherry advocates for a ban in Atlantic provinces, while we also explore the nuances of policy, the potential benefits of technology, and the broader societal implications of the digital age.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:03):
It's interesting to me that I grewup in an era where I knew what
a dial tone was. If thephone rang and you answered it, no
one would ask you where are youbecause you were in your home. That's
how it worked. Then in theeighties people got cell phones and it was
only for rich people. But nowadayskids as young as seven, six,
five four go down are walking aroundwith mobile devices and the Province of New
(00:25):
Brunswick recently announced it was restricting theuse of cell phones in schools. The
Province of Nova Scotia, the EducationMinister, Becky drew And says they're examining
this policy and it would make senseto come up with some type of answer
by the fall when the kids goback to school after the summer break.
Doctor Simon Sherry is here with usand he is, according to this news
release, calling for Atlantic provinces toban cell phones in social media in schools.
(00:49):
Doctor Simon Sherry, thank you fordoing this. I appreciate it.
I'm glad to be here. Whyan outright band, Why get rid of
the devices altogether? As opposed torestricting their use. There is a clear
and concerning negative impact of these deviceson our children. There's a digital displacement
that's occurring in our world. Thesedevices have crept into the sleep time that
(01:14):
our children have. They've intruded intothe social relationships that our children have,
and so too they pushed their wayinto our classrooms, where they are creating
a disruption. You want attention,concentration, memory at their best in an
academic environment, and you're not goingto get that exchanging snapchats at the back
(01:34):
of the room. Again, withall due respect, that sounds like use
and not necessarily possession of device.And I know there's a private school in
Halifax that has had a process inplace for quite some time where the kids
locked their cell phones up in themorning. They still are able to carry
them or care for them if theydon't put them in a locker. That
gives parents the assurance that if thechild needs the device for whatever reason,
(01:57):
because we're very mobile society, thatit's for them in a case of an
emergency. Is there not a caseto be made for that type of scenario.
We want to look at the detailshere. If you look at the
policies in BC, Ontario, Quebec, there are nuances, but what they
seem to share in common is let'sget phones out of classrooms. You could
(02:19):
extrapolate that to say Canadian productivity isdown. Let's get rid of them in
the workplace too. No objections here. I did happen across an article and
perhaps this is not unfamiliar to you. The Harvard Gazette with a piece back
in March of twenty twenty three,and it says that just through Cole's notes
or executive somebody, seventy seven percentof US schools moved to ban cell phones
(02:43):
for non academic purposes as of twentytwenty, twenty twenty. Here it is
twenty twenty four, and we're havingthe discussion in Canada. Why do you
think it's taken us some time toconsider this. It's high time and I
think we need leadership on this,need a government led initiative to make this
change. The research is consistent.It shows that excessive screen time, cell
(03:07):
phone use, social media use havelinks to depression, anxiety, and loneliness.
On the physical health side of things, there are links to inactivity,
obesity, and diabetes. There's compellingevidence that it would be good to protect
our children, to safeguard their developmentby setting up some boundaries in a space
(03:29):
for learning, our schools at yourframe of research here or where is this
coming from? It comes from myoffice where I see the pernicious effects of
these devices. It comes from meas a professor, where I am an
education myself, and it certainly comesfrom me as a parent, especially as
it pertains to my fourteen year oldson. And again, I don't mean
(03:53):
to bring other parts of the societyand a conversation, but we don't live
in a bubble. And it's easyto say all social media is harmful,
and there's probably lots of evidence toback that up. But in other ways,
it gives connections. It gives peoplean opportunity to reduce loneliness, all
of the things that were compounded bythe pandemic with isolation, the things that
(04:16):
you and I had talked about inthe past. Is there not a good
side or an upside to these devices? I agree. We don't want to
demonize all screen time and all socialmedia use. There are opportunities for connection
that can emerge from these devices andthat should be acknowledged. There are educational
(04:39):
applications to these devices as well.However, what our teenagers are doing is
using these devices somewhere between five andeight hours a day, and there's still
the same twenty four hours in theday, and so this is pushing out
and displacing a lot of activities theymight otherwise be doing to foster their development.
(05:01):
I do think if you watch screenswith your kid, there can be
some positives that come from that.There are opportunities for social connection that emerge
from these devices, but let's alsolook at the nature and quality of those
relationships. How many people in yourFacebook would help you move eight am on
a Sunday. These are often weaktie relationships. They're connections, but they're
(05:23):
not necessarily important or profound connections.Is the evidence conclusive that these devices are
addictive? That's an interesting and loadedquestion. I'm going to say that these
are attention grabbing devices, that someof the smartest people in the world are
vying for your attention and your children'sattention through these devices. That there's a
(05:47):
form of capitalism that clearly occurs throughthese devices by capturing people's attention, usually
by fomenting anxiety and outrage. Ithink I'm going to stop short of an
addiction at this point. But psychologyand psychiatry are increasingly interested in gaming as
an addiction. Pornography as an addiction, I don't think the research is there
(06:12):
yet to call it an addiction,and there has to be some limit,
in some boundary on what we calladdictions. And that's why there needs to
be debate, research and discussion inthe field before I'm going to call this
an addiction. But it certainly isan attention grabic device and no doubt a
distraction. I think we can allrelate to that we're not necessarily paying attention
(06:33):
when we should be paying attention.Do you feel and this may be a
bit outside your lane of expertise,but when municipalities and governments say we're actually
going to start suing social media companies, it's not necessarily a device, it's
the platform, and say that thisis disruptive technology that's harmful. Is there
(06:54):
a case that you could make thatthat makes sense. I agree. I'm
certainly not a lawyer, but I'vewatched the laws suit out of Ontario from
the Toronto School Board directed against socialmedia companies. I can't speak to the
legal questions, but there is unequivocalharm through bullying, mental health impacts,
and physical health impacts that occurs toour teens tweens and young adults through these
(07:17):
devices. How that gets interpreted ina court of law, I'm not sure,
but as a scientist who consumes thatevidence, it's concerning. There are
real impacts here, and oftentimes there'sa digital distortion that starts to occur in
the lives of our children, wherethey experience themselves and their world and other
people quite differently and in a distortedfashion owing to their excessive involvement with these
(07:42):
screens. At the risk of layingdown a political line, there are conversations
being had in community and society rightnow about use pronouns and whether our parents
need to have the final say.Why should governments, Why should agencies or
school boards step in where our parentsshould have the final say about what their
child's activity involves. It's a goodpoint. I don't want to live in
(08:07):
a nanny state where the government intrudesdeeply into our life. At the same
time, I appreciate the roads ourgovernment builds. I appreciate the sewers our
government makes. Our government should beentrusted to maintain vital infrastructure essential to the
health of the population. And Ibelieve since at least two thousand and eight,
(08:28):
when the iPhone dropped and became ubiquitous, that this has become a vital
part of public infrastructure. If youwant to maintain the health of the population,
you have to base some consideration tothese devices and their reach. And
as someone who's been standing at thefront of a classroom, the teachers say,
yes, there may be educational applications, but it is not the role
(08:52):
of a teacher to police devices.Is that your experience policing of devices is
almost required in order to keep thecollective learning moving in the right direction.
I want to express a lot ofempathy for our teachers, especially in the
time where they are overworked, theyhave a burnout profession. Nearly all of
(09:13):
the teachers I know have a realcommitment to the well being and the health
and the education of their students.So I am uncomfortable saying, and here's
one more thing you have to takeon within your classroom, and this would
be a contentious issue. I thinkit's very important as parents, as members
of our society that we back upour teachers in this regard. If we're
(09:35):
going to ask them to take onthis additional responsibility, I think we as
a society should support them with whatthey need to affect these changes on behalf
of our children. Is this conversationyou want? Stores it cut and dry
that we need to seriously address thisissue and do so now, I think
the devil's in the details. You'dhave to work out the specific policies,
(09:56):
and if you lay out what BCdid relative to what Ontario did, you
can see there are different reasonable waysto go about this. But to me
this is not confusing. Let's getphones minimally out of classrooms and bring our
practices in line with available evidence.And finally, I guess the question is
(10:16):
a clinical psychologist, when you're speakingwith or having a session with someone,
how do you regulate, control orperhaps police cell phone usage in those moments?
For what I charge for our peopleare genuinely paying attention. Beyond that,
it's a great interaction. It's probablyone of the few interactions in a
(10:37):
person's week or month where we areentirely engaged. I care about every word,
every syllable, every pause, everybreath. It's an extremely engaged interaction,
and I think that's one of thereasons in twenty twenty four that psychology
is curative. It's a time whereyou can focus on a relationship problems and
get undisturbed attention. Well, Ididn't check my phone once through this entire
(11:03):
conversation, and I think, livingin the moment, there's a lot to
be said for that and discipline,and I agree. I think we can
all admit that these things have becomesuch a vital part of it. Just
remember the last time you thought youforgot your phone somewhere. That's all I'll
say, Doctor Simon Sherry, thankyou again. I've enjoyed the conversation.
Thank you.
It's interesting to me that I grewup in an era where I knew what
a dial tone was. If thephone rang and you answered it, no
one would ask you where are youbecause you were in your home. That's
how it worked. Then in theeighties people got cell phones and it was
only for rich people. But nowadayskids as young as seven, six,
five four go down are walking aroundwith mobile devices and the Province of New
(00:25):
Brunswick recently announced it was restricting theuse of cell phones in schools. The
Province of Nova Scotia, the EducationMinister, Becky drew And says they're examining
this policy and it would make senseto come up with some type of answer
by the fall when the kids goback to school after the summer break.
Doctor Simon Sherry is here with usand he is, according to this news
release, calling for Atlantic provinces toban cell phones in social media in schools.
(00:49):
Doctor Simon Sherry, thank you fordoing this. I appreciate it.
I'm glad to be here. Whyan outright band, Why get rid of
the devices altogether? As opposed torestricting their use. There is a clear
and concerning negative impact of these deviceson our children. There's a digital displacement
that's occurring in our world. Thesedevices have crept into the sleep time that
(01:14):
our children have. They've intruded intothe social relationships that our children have,
and so too they pushed their wayinto our classrooms, where they are creating
a disruption. You want attention,concentration, memory at their best in an
academic environment, and you're not goingto get that exchanging snapchats at the back
(01:34):
of the room. Again, withall due respect, that sounds like use
and not necessarily possession of device.And I know there's a private school in
Halifax that has had a process inplace for quite some time where the kids
locked their cell phones up in themorning. They still are able to carry
them or care for them if theydon't put them in a locker. That
gives parents the assurance that if thechild needs the device for whatever reason,
(01:57):
because we're very mobile society, thatit's for them in a case of an
emergency. Is there not a caseto be made for that type of scenario.
We want to look at the detailshere. If you look at the
policies in BC, Ontario, Quebec, there are nuances, but what they
seem to share in common is let'sget phones out of classrooms. You could
(02:19):
extrapolate that to say Canadian productivity isdown. Let's get rid of them in
the workplace too. No objections here. I did happen across an article and
perhaps this is not unfamiliar to you. The Harvard Gazette with a piece back
in March of twenty twenty three,and it says that just through Cole's notes
or executive somebody, seventy seven percentof US schools moved to ban cell phones
(02:43):
for non academic purposes as of twentytwenty, twenty twenty. Here it is
twenty twenty four, and we're havingthe discussion in Canada. Why do you
think it's taken us some time toconsider this. It's high time and I
think we need leadership on this,need a government led initiative to make this
change. The research is consistent.It shows that excessive screen time, cell
(03:07):
phone use, social media use havelinks to depression, anxiety, and loneliness.
On the physical health side of things, there are links to inactivity,
obesity, and diabetes. There's compellingevidence that it would be good to protect
our children, to safeguard their developmentby setting up some boundaries in a space
(03:29):
for learning, our schools at yourframe of research here or where is this
coming from? It comes from myoffice where I see the pernicious effects of
these devices. It comes from meas a professor, where I am an
education myself, and it certainly comesfrom me as a parent, especially as
it pertains to my fourteen year oldson. And again, I don't mean
(03:53):
to bring other parts of the societyand a conversation, but we don't live
in a bubble. And it's easyto say all social media is harmful,
and there's probably lots of evidence toback that up. But in other ways,
it gives connections. It gives peoplean opportunity to reduce loneliness, all
of the things that were compounded bythe pandemic with isolation, the things that
(04:16):
you and I had talked about inthe past. Is there not a good
side or an upside to these devices? I agree. We don't want to
demonize all screen time and all socialmedia use. There are opportunities for connection
that can emerge from these devices andthat should be acknowledged. There are educational
(04:39):
applications to these devices as well.However, what our teenagers are doing is
using these devices somewhere between five andeight hours a day, and there's still
the same twenty four hours in theday, and so this is pushing out
and displacing a lot of activities theymight otherwise be doing to foster their development.
(05:01):
I do think if you watch screenswith your kid, there can be
some positives that come from that.There are opportunities for social connection that emerge
from these devices, but let's alsolook at the nature and quality of those
relationships. How many people in yourFacebook would help you move eight am on
a Sunday. These are often weaktie relationships. They're connections, but they're
(05:23):
not necessarily important or profound connections.Is the evidence conclusive that these devices are
addictive? That's an interesting and loadedquestion. I'm going to say that these
are attention grabbing devices, that someof the smartest people in the world are
vying for your attention and your children'sattention through these devices. That there's a
(05:47):
form of capitalism that clearly occurs throughthese devices by capturing people's attention, usually
by fomenting anxiety and outrage. Ithink I'm going to stop short of an
addiction at this point. But psychologyand psychiatry are increasingly interested in gaming as
an addiction. Pornography as an addiction, I don't think the research is there
(06:12):
yet to call it an addiction,and there has to be some limit,
in some boundary on what we calladdictions. And that's why there needs to
be debate, research and discussion inthe field before I'm going to call this
an addiction. But it certainly isan attention grabic device and no doubt a
distraction. I think we can allrelate to that we're not necessarily paying attention
(06:33):
when we should be paying attention.Do you feel and this may be a
bit outside your lane of expertise,but when municipalities and governments say we're actually
going to start suing social media companies, it's not necessarily a device, it's
the platform, and say that thisis disruptive technology that's harmful. Is there
(06:54):
a case that you could make thatthat makes sense. I agree. I'm
certainly not a lawyer, but I'vewatched the laws suit out of Ontario from
the Toronto School Board directed against socialmedia companies. I can't speak to the
legal questions, but there is unequivocalharm through bullying, mental health impacts,
and physical health impacts that occurs toour teens tweens and young adults through these
(07:17):
devices. How that gets interpreted ina court of law, I'm not sure,
but as a scientist who consumes thatevidence, it's concerning. There are
real impacts here, and oftentimes there'sa digital distortion that starts to occur in
the lives of our children, wherethey experience themselves and their world and other
people quite differently and in a distortedfashion owing to their excessive involvement with these
(07:42):
screens. At the risk of layingdown a political line, there are conversations
being had in community and society rightnow about use pronouns and whether our parents
need to have the final say.Why should governments, Why should agencies or
school boards step in where our parentsshould have the final say about what their
child's activity involves. It's a goodpoint. I don't want to live in
(08:07):
a nanny state where the government intrudesdeeply into our life. At the same
time, I appreciate the roads ourgovernment builds. I appreciate the sewers our
government makes. Our government should beentrusted to maintain vital infrastructure essential to the
health of the population. And Ibelieve since at least two thousand and eight,
(08:28):
when the iPhone dropped and became ubiquitous, that this has become a vital
part of public infrastructure. If youwant to maintain the health of the population,
you have to base some consideration tothese devices and their reach. And
as someone who's been standing at thefront of a classroom, the teachers say,
yes, there may be educational applications, but it is not the role
(08:52):
of a teacher to police devices.Is that your experience policing of devices is
almost required in order to keep thecollective learning moving in the right direction.
I want to express a lot ofempathy for our teachers, especially in the
time where they are overworked, theyhave a burnout profession. Nearly all of
(09:13):
the teachers I know have a realcommitment to the well being and the health
and the education of their students.So I am uncomfortable saying, and here's
one more thing you have to takeon within your classroom, and this would
be a contentious issue. I thinkit's very important as parents, as members
of our society that we back upour teachers in this regard. If we're
(09:35):
going to ask them to take onthis additional responsibility, I think we as
a society should support them with whatthey need to affect these changes on behalf
of our children. Is this conversationyou want? Stores it cut and dry
that we need to seriously address thisissue and do so now, I think
the devil's in the details. You'dhave to work out the specific policies,
(09:56):
and if you lay out what BCdid relative to what Ontario did, you
can see there are different reasonable waysto go about this. But to me
this is not confusing. Let's getphones minimally out of classrooms and bring our
practices in line with available evidence.And finally, I guess the question is
(10:16):
a clinical psychologist, when you're speakingwith or having a session with someone,
how do you regulate, control orperhaps police cell phone usage in those moments?
For what I charge for our peopleare genuinely paying attention. Beyond that,
it's a great interaction. It's probablyone of the few interactions in a
(10:37):
person's week or month where we areentirely engaged. I care about every word,
every syllable, every pause, everybreath. It's an extremely engaged interaction,
and I think that's one of thereasons in twenty twenty four that psychology
is curative. It's a time whereyou can focus on a relationship problems and
get undisturbed attention. Well, Ididn't check my phone once through this entire
(11:03):
conversation, and I think, livingin the moment, there's a lot to
be said for that and discipline,and I agree. I think we can
all admit that these things have becomesuch a vital part of it. Just
remember the last time you thought youforgot your phone somewhere. That's all I'll
say, Doctor Simon Sherry, thankyou again. I've enjoyed the conversation.
Thank you.
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