October 15, 2025 • 53 mins
Season 23 : No Theme
Susan Lorincz claimed she was in fear for her life when she shot and killed Ajike Owens in 2023, but after an investigation, her story didn't add up.
Sinister Podcast : https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/sinister--5428204
Sinister YouTube : https://www.youtube.com/@SomewhereSinister
Or search for "Somewhere Sinister" where ever you listen to podcasts.
Our Regular Merch Hosted by FourthWall! : https://thisismonsters.com/
GTFOH Doormats : https://this-is-monsters.printify.me/
Socials:
LinkTree : https://linktr.ee/thisismonsters
Instagram : https://www.instagram.com/thisis_monsters/
Threads : https://www.threads.net/@thisis_monsters
My other shows:
This is Monsters YouTube : https://www.youtube.com/@thisisMONSTERS
Vlog : https://www.youtube.com/@jileswithaj
Susan Lorincz claimed she was in fear for her life when she shot and killed Ajike Owens in 2023, but after an investigation, her story didn't add up.
Sinister Podcast : https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/sinister--5428204
Sinister YouTube : https://www.youtube.com/@SomewhereSinister
Or search for "Somewhere Sinister" where ever you listen to podcasts.
Our Regular Merch Hosted by FourthWall! : https://thisismonsters.com/
GTFOH Doormats : https://this-is-monsters.printify.me/
Socials:
LinkTree : https://linktr.ee/thisismonsters
Instagram : https://www.instagram.com/thisis_monsters/
Threads : https://www.threads.net/@thisis_monsters
My other shows:
This is Monsters YouTube : https://www.youtube.com/@thisisMONSTERS
Vlog : https://www.youtube.com/@jileswithaj
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
He's the window that here, you have your table bags.
Speaker 2 (00:05):
There is still someone with a gun.
Speaker 3 (00:07):
He's been tied.
Speaker 2 (00:08):
Okay, where where that's no sorry, she's in the house.
Speaker 4 (00:13):
Bro that apartment right here, his first apartment.
Speaker 5 (00:17):
I need like, wake up, baby, wake up, wake up,
wake up baby, wake up a wake up?
Speaker 6 (00:31):
Did wh did you see your real quick?
Speaker 7 (00:32):
Maybe? Wake up?
Speaker 5 (00:34):
Hey, wake up?
Speaker 1 (00:35):
Let me see we have any poll?
Speaker 3 (00:39):
Do we have any poll? We got poll?
Speaker 5 (00:48):
We got poll.
Speaker 6 (00:56):
I'm the frock from all right, let's go up.
Speaker 4 (01:00):
Out of your hands off?
Speaker 1 (01:03):
Is American sheriff of cut up, out of.
Speaker 5 (01:05):
Your heads off?
Speaker 6 (01:12):
Show me your hands, show.
Speaker 2 (01:14):
Your hands, turn around, turn around.
Speaker 8 (01:17):
Where's your gun at?
Speaker 6 (01:20):
Yeah?
Speaker 8 (01:21):
Hand on the review?
Speaker 6 (01:21):
In the tame? Is there anybody else in the house?
Speaker 3 (01:23):
To somebody else on house?
Speaker 6 (01:26):
Can I just.
Speaker 2 (01:26):
No, no, no, no, right now, you're not under rested.
Speaker 3 (01:30):
Be in the tame? Okay?
Speaker 4 (01:33):
Over here.
Speaker 2 (01:43):
On June second, twenty twenty three, police in Ocala, Florida,
were called to the scene of a shooting. Fifty eight
year old Susan Lawrence had shot thirty five year old
Ogica oh Wents through her front door at about nine
pm after a neighborhood dispute. Susan claimed she fired in
self defense, but an investigation would reveal that that was
(02:04):
not actually the case. This is monsters. Susan Lawrence was
(02:35):
born on July twenty third, nineteen sixty four, and some
sources say she grew up in Florida. In one of
her police interviews, she claims she was sexually assaulted and
beaten by a family member in New Jersey repeatedly between
the ages of four and twenty. It's also mentioned that
she lived in Michigan as well, so it's unclear where
(02:56):
she was born or where she grew up. It's been
reported that she grew up in a conservative household and
that her family was hostile towards the growing diversity in
the area. Whichever area that may have been. I couldn't
find any information that showed she was ever married or
had children of her own. Something went wrong in her household, though,
(03:17):
because in August of twenty twenty four, Susan's sister, Ellen Lawrence,
was arrested and charged with child neglect. Police had responded
to the woman, who also lived in Oaklam, multiple times
based on reports of leaving her nine year old son
alone with no food, and she had failed to provide
the child with proper medication. So to me, there was
(03:39):
clearly a lack of moral compass when it came to
the Lawrence sisters. Susan mentioned in her first police interview
that she had a PhD. In it's unclear what subject
it was in. She had worked for United Healthcare, but
by the time of the incident she was not working
and seeking disability. She lived in an apartment on Southwest
(04:02):
one hundred and seventh Lane and Oculla starting in twenty twenty,
and she was described as reclusive and stubborn. Her neighbors
reported that she was known for her quick temper and
her interactions with others were often contentious. Neighbors said that
Susan was particularly hostile towards children, and it makes me
wonder what happened to her and her sister that made
(04:23):
them treat children negatively. There isn't much known about her
past and the psychology behind both of their actions as
a mystery. After the Owens family moved in across the street,
Susan seemed to focus her rage on those children. Aujica
Owens went by AJ. In all of Susan's interviews, she
(04:44):
calls her neighbor a Jake, showing that she didn't seem
to have made any effort to get to know her.
Speaker 8 (04:50):
So the woman that got shot, what is her name?
Speaker 6 (04:54):
A jen?
Speaker 4 (04:55):
Aj it's aj okay.
Speaker 2 (04:57):
Even after having been corrected, she can te. I used
to call Audica a je ike throughout both of our interviews,
showing a complete lack of respect for the woman she
had shot. People in the neighborhood described Susan constantly provoking
the children, recording them, and they said she called them
racial slurs. She described that their relationship was contentious in
(05:19):
a later interview.
Speaker 4 (05:21):
So the woman that got shot, what is her name?
Speaker 3 (05:25):
Aj it's aj okay?
Speaker 8 (05:27):
And how long have you known her?
Speaker 3 (05:30):
I really didn't know her. I just you know she
was a neighbor across the street. Okay, So how.
Speaker 8 (05:34):
Long has she been a neighbor across the street from me?
How understand that?
Speaker 6 (05:37):
A year and a half?
Speaker 3 (05:37):
Two years?
Speaker 8 (05:38):
Okay, year and a half and two years?
Speaker 9 (05:40):
And in that year and a half and two years,
how many times have you guys been able to talk?
Speaker 3 (05:45):
We have never talked. It's more like screaming.
Speaker 9 (05:47):
Okay, all right, so maybe better go to recommunicate. How
many times have you guys been able to communicate in
that year and a half or two years, two three times,
two or three times. And in those two or three
times over a year and a half and two years,
what were you guys screaming about?
Speaker 8 (05:59):
Were you guys communicating about?
Speaker 10 (06:01):
She would take her dog and walk it on my
side work to make sure it shit on the side walking.
Speaker 6 (06:05):
Why are you kidding me?
Speaker 8 (06:06):
Yeah?
Speaker 10 (06:07):
No, one the places you can take your animal are
you're gonna come here? She said, it's the only place
went OOCLACU to the bathroom.
Speaker 3 (06:13):
Okay, So no, I don't think so.
Speaker 6 (06:15):
Okay.
Speaker 9 (06:16):
So you guys would have a disagreement regarding that, some
screaming regarding the dog poop and where it showed it? Uh,
what else would you guys communicate out in that two
or three times?
Speaker 10 (06:24):
The one time she was talking to the neighbors and
she said on a picture there was crazy and I'm like, no.
Speaker 6 (06:29):
I'm not gonna you know.
Speaker 3 (06:30):
Sorry, I woke you.
Speaker 6 (06:31):
I said, what is your problem?
Speaker 10 (06:33):
And she just went on a tirade. I have never
heard someone scream like this one. And I was like,
Jesus Christ, uh huh, And I mean she she exploded
her and I'm like.
Speaker 6 (06:41):
Oh shit, how long ago was that?
Speaker 3 (06:43):
Two months ago?
Speaker 6 (06:44):
Two months, two.
Speaker 3 (06:45):
Three months ago?
Speaker 10 (06:46):
And then she was she was saying I called her
kids all kinds of names, and I'm like, uh no,
I didn't. And the more I said no, the more
I rate she got. Finally, I'm like, you know, let
me just back off, say yes, I'll apologize and discovery away.
Speaker 4 (06:59):
What one of things was She's saying that you called
her kids, I called them.
Speaker 10 (07:04):
Racial slurs, that I called them slaves, and that's never happened.
I mean, when she said, I wanting to stop already,
stop lying, you know, and I was like, enough what
I did call them retards once?
Speaker 3 (07:17):
Because they just kept calling and calling. I said, are
you retarding if you can't read the sign?
Speaker 6 (07:21):
Okay?
Speaker 3 (07:22):
You know how many times do we have to tell
you you're trespassing?
Speaker 7 (07:24):
You know?
Speaker 2 (07:26):
Obviously, Susan became known as the neighborhood Karen. In case
you don't know what a karen is, Miriam Webster's Dictionary
states karen is a slang term used to disparage a
stereotypically middle class, middle aged white woman who rebukes or
reports others in angry, sometimes racist public displays. I think
(07:48):
it's safe to say that Susan fits that description. She
began making calls to nine to one one to report
the children who are playing in the area, and local
officers became well known own with the lonely Woman.
Speaker 8 (08:04):
So it's gonna be a plan of Disney.
Speaker 1 (08:11):
I can't really go into everything, but she mean, she
is in custody.
Speaker 6 (08:16):
But yeah, I do know.
Speaker 9 (08:17):
But the only reason why I'm saying it, it's gonna
be chaos, you know what I mean.
Speaker 6 (08:26):
I'm very familiar with.
Speaker 8 (08:29):
I don't work the zone anymore, but I'm very familiar.
Speaker 6 (08:32):
With, so I know the situation and what she has.
Speaker 1 (08:37):
Done and everything.
Speaker 6 (08:40):
Now.
Speaker 2 (08:40):
I've lived in a number of apartments as well as
houses in various residential areas. I've lived in a few
places that were more rural and you could scream and
yell or say have your punk band practice there, and
nobody would ever notice. I've also lived in the city
where you could hear traffic and people shouting, or carl
alarms and police sirens of all times. The other option
(09:02):
is to live in the suburbs, where you're between the
city and the wilderness, and generally there are going to
be other people close enough to still affect you. There
are pros and cons to everything. You can live out
in the country and it's much quieter and oftentimes it's
more affordable, but you're further away from things work, schools, shopping,
so transportation is an issue. You can live in the
(09:26):
city and just walk to work in school, but it's
noisy and more populated. Most people's happy medium is to
live in the suburbs. It can be quieter and conveniently
located not too far from the places you need to go.
I found that the suburbs tend to be quieter in
the middle of the night and during work hours in
the middle of the day, but afternoons, evenings and weekends
(09:48):
can be noisier. Kids are out playing and people are
working on weekend projects. That's the con to balance out
the benefits of living in that type of area. If
your priority is and especially if children screaming bothers you,
living in a suburban neighborhood surrounded by average families with
children is not your best option. I know not everyone
(10:11):
is able to find the perfect place to live, but
that's where being a reasonable human being comes in. You
have to understand how the world works, identify that where
you live is not the perfect place for you, and
not expect everyone else around you to modify their behavior
in order to appease you. Fighting with children is not
(10:31):
what a reasonable adult should do. A reasonable adult would
put up heavy curtains that help block sound, or get
headphones to use with their television or radio. And asking
the children to keep it down or move to a
different areas not out of the question. But you need
to be polite, something that neighbors said, Susan never was.
(10:52):
Early in my marriage, my wife and I lived in
an apartment complex. We didn't have children yet, so it
was just a one bedroom apartment on the ground flot.
It was a decent sized complex that had multiple buildings
and there were one or two playgrounds for the children
in the complex to play on. We never considered the
location of the playgrounds when we got the apartment, but
(11:14):
one of them was right outside our back door. There
was the front door on the side of the building
with the road and parking lot and a glass slider
at the backside with the little patio. Then twenty feet
or about six meters away was a full playground, so
every day the group of children would be out there
playing just outside of our living room. They were toddlers
(11:37):
up to preteens, and children that age don't have the
ability to control the sounds they make. When something excites them,
they scream at the top of their lungs. They haven't
developed the context for how the sounds they make affect
other people. Their parents tell them not to scream or
to be quieter, and that's fine. That helps them learn
(11:57):
the appropriate volumes for different situations. But little kids don't
know yet. That's why a toddler in a grocery store,
we'll ask his mom for candy like she's on the
other side of the store, when she's actually right next
to him. The concept of appropriate volume is not something
human beings are born with. In my opinion, it takes
(12:18):
a very broken person to believe that children should be
under perfect control all the time. You don't need to
understand child's psychology or even know enough about children to
take care of them, but it's hard to accept that
anybody doesn't have the basic grasp that children are learning
how to behave and will be loud by nature.
Speaker 3 (12:38):
I only love him by his name, said Peto.
Speaker 10 (12:41):
So okay, so he's a guy. He gets old, he
gets together so they're screaming and yelling, and they're doing
all this crazy stuff and I only stop.
Speaker 3 (12:50):
Ready, And I asked him, I said, please stop. I
don't like the yelling. Just you know, I'm sorry to
break down.
Speaker 8 (12:56):
I'll take your time.
Speaker 2 (12:58):
She's on the verge of tears, but not about an
innocent woman, a mother of four children being murdered. She's
on the verge of tears thinking about the kids screaming
and yelling. It feels like she grew up never being
able to have fun. On June second, twenty twenty three,
Susan had become upset at the neighborhood children again and
(13:21):
dialed nine one one at eight fifty four pm.
Speaker 7 (13:24):
All right, and.
Speaker 6 (13:25):
Something exactly what happened?
Speaker 1 (13:27):
I think I could trust pass from standard, leaving all
the toys around me, just dreaming, knowing, just being absolutely naxious.
I went in through the lower stakes over together side
to take those and I have a piece up for that.
And he's mouth and lost to me, all right, right
in my own home. The several kids out there right now,
(13:47):
and I'm cheering from her life. I'm very scared. Okay,
were there any weapons in the hold?
Speaker 2 (13:57):
I no, how many people are involved.
Speaker 1 (14:03):
Earlier, there was about twenty kids out there streaming Yellen,
passing the wives. They're like through you now the three
boys three yes, okay. I just don't like them coming
around my house. They've been coming onto my debts, my patio,
and it's telling me get up, get up when I'm
watching TV with stuff. They have no business over here.
There's no trespassing.
Speaker 10 (14:23):
Sell.
Speaker 1 (14:25):
I don't like the kids threateningly that they're going to
beat me up, that they're going to get someone else
to kill me. This is just ridiculous. They just see
bad dreaming and bad dream just pricklly stik. Now that
they're home from school, it's like, you know, crazy, because
what's going to happen is his mom's going to go out,
wait for the officer and run and say, oh my god,
(14:46):
I was threatening her kids, which this isn't true.
Speaker 2 (14:50):
So that evening she called emergency services about the kids
trespassing outside of her house. She claimed that they threatened
her with violence, and an offic USIR was dispatched to
the scene. What she didn't tell the operator while she
was making herself out to be a victim, was that
she had already confronted the children that were outside. There
(15:12):
was some conflict over a tablet. One of the kids
said she took his tablet, and she denied that. I
don't know that the truth about what happened to the
tablet was ever determined, but that caused a conflict. Then
Susan had gone outside, picked up a roller skate and
thrown it at one of the kids. Of course, Susan
(15:33):
claimed she didn't throw it at them, she just threw it,
but one of the children said it hit them. Then
she grabbed an umbrella and swung it at the kids. Again,
Susan denied that and said she brought the umbrella outside
because she thought it was raining, because when you're standing
in an open door in your house, it's so hard
to tell whether or not it's raining. Right, those actions
(15:57):
had upset the mother of those children, who happened to
be a j Owens. Now, as a parent, if my
neighbor threatened my children with physical violence, I would likely
approach them and question them about what happened, and based
on what my child told me, I would probably be angry,
especially if they said the neighbor had thrown something at
them or swung something at them. My first step would
(16:20):
be to talk to the neighbor and try to fix
the problem. Susan apparently did not think that was the
right course of action in your head.
Speaker 11 (16:29):
You know, during the panic, during all these thoughts, how
what did you feel that was going to happen?
Speaker 10 (16:35):
And she didn't come in there beat the shit on
me until I was dead, Okay, I mean that's what
I felt. I mean, I don't understand why she came
over my house. If there was all these issues and problems,
Why did she.
Speaker 6 (16:44):
Just call somebody?
Speaker 3 (16:45):
You know, that's to me, that's what you would do
if you're normal.
Speaker 6 (16:48):
You know, that's a.
Speaker 3 (16:49):
Normal thing to do. Something happens to me.
Speaker 10 (16:51):
I call them police, you know, like, okay, you know
the kids are being mine or she's banging in you know.
But when I couldn't find my phone and everything, I
was just like shit, I thought she.
Speaker 6 (17:03):
Was going to kill me.
Speaker 2 (17:05):
That is a Karen's point of view, that you need
to call the police for everything, to call the police
every time kids are outside being loud. That is why
the neighbors called her a Karen because she was one.
Aj on the other hand, wanted to talk to her
neighbor about how her children had been treated by her.
(17:27):
Was she upset, of course, but Susan believed that she
was threatening to kill her. That's when Susan retrieved a
handgun and fired a single round into her front door.
Then she called nine one one again.
Speaker 7 (17:42):
Nye, dad, just let the emergency to burst shut. Okay,
I repeat that, just for me to make sure I
have a correct Okay, what is your name?
Speaker 5 (18:04):
Okay? What's going?
Speaker 7 (18:05):
Take a deep breast on the calm down? Oh my god,
you guys, someone trying to break down your door?
Speaker 3 (18:11):
Is that correct?
Speaker 7 (18:12):
Yes?
Speaker 1 (18:13):
The woman was screaming and yelling and she was trying
to break down my door, and she was.
Speaker 7 (18:19):
Okay it was a female. Yes.
Speaker 1 (18:23):
I didn't know what to do like that my gun
and I just saw that the door.
Speaker 7 (18:31):
Oh my, you shot at the doors?
Speaker 1 (18:34):
That correct? I thought it was gonna wyn.
Speaker 7 (18:38):
She wouldn't it. Okay, where's your gun now?
Speaker 5 (18:49):
It's it's in my bedroom.
Speaker 7 (18:52):
I didn't want to do.
Speaker 1 (19:02):
This is the woman who attacks me? Okay? You still
see the subject.
Speaker 7 (19:07):
I don't.
Speaker 2 (19:12):
Susan is clearly freaking out, but that is completely contrasted
by your composure when she's taken into custody from your ants,
from your ants turn around, Turn around?
Speaker 4 (19:24):
Where's your gun attained?
Speaker 10 (19:29):
Is there anybody else in the house?
Speaker 6 (19:33):
Can I just no right now?
Speaker 8 (19:36):
You're not under rested entertained.
Speaker 2 (19:50):
She's cool as a cucumber. On top of her being
completely calm by the time the authorities get there. She
also bad mouths the victims during the one.
Speaker 1 (20:00):
Call and did you know that? Did you know her?
She's come out from me several times because of her
children are still think he's truck passing over here. They're
bothering me and bothering.
Speaker 7 (20:12):
They won't sucking up stop. Is she a neighbor?
Speaker 1 (20:17):
Yes?
Speaker 7 (20:19):
You know where she lives?
Speaker 6 (20:22):
I don't know.
Speaker 7 (20:23):
I don't know.
Speaker 1 (20:23):
She's the old broken down honda with something white color
in front of her house. It's old garbage, he said,
a white honda. Yes, she has a new accurate And
do you see the.
Speaker 7 (20:40):
Do you see the male subject or you just see
the female?
Speaker 1 (20:45):
See her Boyfrid here earlier? They keeps eating his garbage
all around the house, and then I told him to
take the crap away, get the fuck out of here.
Speaker 2 (20:53):
Most people are focused on the shooting when something like
this happens. The fact that Susan is still focused on
insulting the person she just shot is very telling. It
puts her motivation for the shooting into some perspective. She
tells investigators that she fired a shot because of how
much she was in fear for her life, but peppering
(21:14):
in little jabs at the person she's supposedly in fear
of doesn't add up. A sheriff's deputy was already on
the way, and once the calls about the shooting came in,
more deputies and an ambulance were sent. Aj had been
shot in the chest and had stumbled out into the grass.
Paramedics arrived and took her to the hospital, where she
(21:35):
died from her wounds. While on the scene, one deputy
got some information from one of the children who was involved.
Speaker 7 (21:44):
I got.
Speaker 1 (21:47):
I went to get it.
Speaker 7 (21:48):
I said, all right, but come on.
Speaker 8 (21:51):
Here for a thinking.
Speaker 2 (21:53):
If y'all were here when it happened, to stand right
here so I know who was out here when it happened.
Speaker 6 (21:57):
Okay, okay.
Speaker 7 (22:00):
I got over there because we were playing games, and
I went to go get in.
Speaker 1 (22:04):
I said, give my back this.
Speaker 10 (22:06):
Yeah.
Speaker 7 (22:06):
She prot to try to pull these kids at me
and I.
Speaker 6 (22:11):
I and then I got my brother.
Speaker 1 (22:14):
She said, come in me.
Speaker 4 (22:15):
With the streets, and then.
Speaker 11 (22:19):
All right, but give me a minute, just hang out
on my car, okay.
Speaker 2 (22:25):
The deputies were eventually told just to take down contact
information and that the detectives would conduct interviews. Obviously, Susan
was taken into custody, though she was technically not placed
under arrest. She was taken to the station and interviewed
by detectives.
Speaker 6 (22:43):
So what happened tonight That led to the conclusion.
Speaker 10 (22:46):
Well, I just like kids go home, so they go home,
and then all of a sudden, she comes out and
she is just banging on my door and like, go away,
I'm not dealing with you tonight.
Speaker 3 (22:57):
And then she started playing so hard.
Speaker 10 (22:59):
Everything started shaking, and I'm like, you really need to leave,
and she I'll lit to fucking kill you.
Speaker 5 (23:04):
And she's just.
Speaker 3 (23:05):
Banging and banging away.
Speaker 10 (23:07):
You know, I'm like crazy, and she has actually wanted
to be I'm like, it just just keeps getting worse
and worse.
Speaker 3 (23:13):
I'm like I don't know what to do with her.
Speaker 10 (23:15):
And she bang so hard it looked like my door
was going to fly off, and that's why I just
panicked and I was like, oh my god, she's really
going to kill me this time, you know, And so
I don't even actually remember picking up again, and I
just remember shooting.
Speaker 6 (23:27):
Where do you keep the gun?
Speaker 3 (23:28):
Usually it's in my bedroom.
Speaker 6 (23:30):
That's where you keep it, like him.
Speaker 10 (23:33):
In a cabinet or something or just like it's just
actually keep it in the trash can.
Speaker 6 (23:38):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (23:39):
That was the beginning of Susan's tale of aj coming
to her house and threatening to kill her. She claimed
that she was banging on the door so hard it
was shaking the entire house. The house was built of
cinder block, and the detective eventually went back to the
scene and tried to recreate the situation and could not
make the house shake. Of course, as you'll soon learn,
(24:02):
everything that Susan says is a complete exaggeration. By the
time Susan was interviewed, investigators had spoken to people in
the area so prior to.
Speaker 6 (24:15):
Her coming over there.
Speaker 11 (24:19):
And banging on your door, because we talked to a
lot of people that were out there at the time,
and there was some statements given to us that you
had taken a.
Speaker 6 (24:34):
Tablet or picked up a tablet that was instaground.
Speaker 10 (24:36):
Absolutely not no, okay, that child like the other day,
he said, to me, I'm going to go tell my
mom that you called me a slave.
Speaker 3 (24:45):
And he came over with a rake and he was
pounding everything with the rake. I think it really seriously,
is I don't know what's going on with that child?
Speaker 6 (24:53):
And which child is that what you're talking about?
Speaker 10 (24:56):
It's on the video if you live, if you get
me made phone off, sure which child it is?
Speaker 3 (25:01):
I don't know my names?
Speaker 6 (25:05):
Is it one of the older ones? Yeah?
Speaker 11 (25:07):
Okay? And what was the what was the deal with
the roller skates? Cause again, we talked to a lot
of people who were.
Speaker 10 (25:13):
Outside and they some of those deep leaving all their
toys around the other day, I almost killed myself going out.
Speaker 3 (25:19):
I had an early morning doctor's appointment and I didn't
see the roller skate. I almost killed myself. I'm like, guys,
you know, stop already and.
Speaker 10 (25:26):
This is not your garbage or you know, the kids
got his roller skates there, and I'm like, really, take
your roller skates.
Speaker 3 (25:32):
I threw the roller skates. I'm like, go fetch 'em,
you know, just enough.
Speaker 6 (25:36):
Because did you throw that at them? Or okay? Now,
I just what is the thing about the umbrella? Like
can you had an umbrella.
Speaker 3 (25:43):
I thought it was raining before. When I walked out
and it wasn't raining, I'm like okay, so okay, And.
Speaker 6 (25:50):
He swung it at them or some or one of them.
Speaker 3 (25:52):
I wasn't even close. I was still inside the vestib.
Speaker 6 (25:55):
So how how can we explain that? Then?
Speaker 11 (25:57):
What people saying, like multiple people that weren't like talking
to each other that if they were saying that that.
Speaker 6 (26:05):
That's what they saw.
Speaker 10 (26:08):
Maybe I did step out and I'm like, guys, go away,
go away, But I would never touch it.
Speaker 6 (26:13):
Yeah, I like swat at them with it.
Speaker 3 (26:15):
But my exactly if I did it, it was probably
because I was just totally and like, come on.
Speaker 2 (26:21):
This is the problem with people like this. Their memory
is selective. When she describes how Aj threatened her, she
had a perfect memory. She is absolutely sure that Aj
said she was going to kill her. Then when someone
says she swung an umbrella at the kids, her memory
suddenly gets cloudy. And for many people in a situation
(26:41):
like this, it might not necessarily be a flat out lie,
it's the way they've interpreted the situation. Susan had already
decided that Aj was a danger, so her memory of
any perceived threats are heightened, making even benign actions seem threatening.
At the same time, she believes she's the victim, so
no matter how threatening her own behavior is, it doesn't
(27:04):
register as being a big deal to her. She's the victim,
so clearly any of her actions were not meant to
be threatening, and everything that happens to her is exaggerated.
There was a roller skate outside and she nearly killed
herself because of it. Right after the interview, Susan was
released while the detectives continued their investigation. Susan said she
(27:29):
was going to stay in a hotel because she didn't
feel safe going home, which is funny because so far
she was the only person in her neighborhood who had
killed somebody. Over the next few days, more interviews were
conducted and surveillance video was reviewed. On June sixth, protesters
gathered outside of the Marion County Judicial Center to demand
(27:50):
that Susan be arrested, and the state attorney told them
that the investigation was ongoing and that they should be patient.
The following day, Susan was back in for a second interview,
and quite a few details were uncovered.
Speaker 10 (28:05):
And I asked him, I said, please, I said you
know when my friends was murdered when I was very young,
and she screamed.
Speaker 3 (28:12):
She was bound and gagged.
Speaker 10 (28:13):
And she they the guy thought he killed her and
she screamed. And so every time those little kids scream,
I keep thinking of my friend Elizabeth.
Speaker 6 (28:21):
Tell me about that.
Speaker 3 (28:22):
Whoa so?
Speaker 10 (28:23):
And I asked him, I said to Peter, please, these
kids screaming like this, it's these triggering men.
Speaker 3 (28:27):
I don't wanna hear this, you know. And he's like, Ah,
you're full of shit, You're a liar, your cunt or
this or that.
Speaker 10 (28:32):
I'm like, really, why would I tell the story?
Speaker 3 (28:35):
And it's not true.
Speaker 11 (28:36):
I know, this is kind of not really r related
to what we're talking about. Well, what what happened with
your friend is that when you were very young or
at fourteen?
Speaker 3 (28:45):
Oh my god, So that guy came and he raped
her and he Peter and he thought he killed her
and he bound her up. She was at Chilton Factory, uh,
the old spice factory in Jersey.
Speaker 10 (28:54):
Oh, and next to it was a children's playground. And
he buried her there in a shallow grave.
Speaker 3 (29:00):
And she wasn't dead. So when the corner.
Speaker 10 (29:05):
Said that it was all dirt and her lungs because
she keets screamed and screaming, screaming, So every time those
little girls screamed, it just kind of, you know, the.
Speaker 3 (29:12):
Everything with Elizabeth.
Speaker 2 (29:14):
During this interview, Susan tells a story about her friend
having been killed and now kids screaming triggers her. Now
we have to go back to the subject of living
in a residential area. You live in society with other people.
You can't expect the people around you to change their
lives to appease you. Susan is expecting children to not
(29:37):
scream when they play because of a crime that happened
forty four years prior that she was not involved in
with a victim. She did not physically hear scream. She
was just told the victim likely screamed. This is someone
who makes every problem about themselves. Every single thing that
has happened in life has victimized her. That murder vicctimized her.
(30:01):
The neighbor riding his four wheeler victimized her. A mother
being upset at her for abusing her kids victimized her.
She had neck surgery, so this affects her. She had
a blood clot so that affects her. Everything affects her,
and she expects everyone around her to adjust their lives accordingly,
and that's not reasonable. That's entitled. On top of that,
(30:23):
it seems like she expected people to automatically behave in
a way that catered to her. It doesn't sound like
she ever explained her position and asked for anything. The
kids were screaming, as kids do, and she was just
upset that the kids were triggering her, like they would
automatically know that she lived in a world that she
believed revolved around her. During this interview, she also explained
(30:48):
that she wanted to fire her gun to scare aj away,
not to kill her. Yet she fired a shot directly
into the door where a person would be standing. She
didn't fire into the ceiling or even into the area
above the door. She fired exactly where the bullet would
hit someone's center mass if they were standing on the
other side of that door. And she had been to
(31:10):
the range and practiced shooting.
Speaker 8 (31:13):
Are you are you experienced with firearms?
Speaker 9 (31:16):
You got two guns and sounds like you have the
little clinker and you know about the price of ammo?
Speaker 8 (31:20):
Are you well versed with them?
Speaker 3 (31:22):
I used to be terrified afar uh huh.
Speaker 10 (31:24):
And then a friend said, you know, you really can't
defend yourself.
Speaker 3 (31:27):
He said, you should think.
Speaker 6 (31:28):
About getting a gun. Okay.
Speaker 8 (31:30):
So when did you first get a gun? Was it
just or did you have other guns historically?
Speaker 7 (31:34):
No?
Speaker 3 (31:35):
I never did.
Speaker 6 (31:36):
Okay.
Speaker 10 (31:36):
I first bought a nine millimeter but it was just
way too much gun for me, so I sold it.
Speaker 3 (31:40):
Uh huh. Then I got a little three eighty okay.
Speaker 9 (31:43):
And did you go to any kind of training for
those using guns that going to the range or tell
me about that.
Speaker 10 (31:48):
I went to the range, watch videos, you know, all
the other stuff, self educating. And I was going to
go take a permits, a carry course, sure, and.
Speaker 3 (31:57):
I didn't get around.
Speaker 2 (31:59):
She was planning to get a concealed carry permit, but
luckily she never had the chance. Could you imagine if
she was walking around in society with a gun on
her an angry, bitter Karen who believed anyone who got
angry at her was a threat. The detectives tried to
get more details out of Susan to explain some of
the things they found when they talked to other people
(32:21):
in the neighborhood, but her selective memory was an issue.
Speaker 9 (32:26):
Detective Steff has been talking to you about the timeline, okay, and.
Speaker 8 (32:29):
Some of the work we've done.
Speaker 9 (32:30):
Now, this is a picture that I draw, not an
artist at all, but when I tell you some of
the work we've done. We spoke to all the people
over this is your house, by the way, okay, this
is we'll go an ask for you.
Speaker 4 (32:42):
We spoke to everybody and in these buildings.
Speaker 9 (32:44):
We spoke to them all in these buildings, and we
talked to anybody that had cameras that would see different areas.
These cameras they hear things. We're able to hear audio.
We're able to hear things like that, and everyone will
be interview I pretty much got the same detect, the
stiff that I can.
Speaker 8 (33:02):
We go.
Speaker 9 (33:02):
We got the same statement from every single person we interviewed.
We lined up, well, we didn't line them up. These people
were interviewed in different locations. Some of them were interviewed
in different buildings, in different places. I interviewed them at
different houses, and all these people provided me similar statements.
Speaker 4 (33:16):
Okay, no one in that provided these.
Speaker 9 (33:19):
Now, these people could hear her talking, okay, because she
was talking loudly.
Speaker 8 (33:23):
You said that you could hear it. Through the wall,
and I can agree with that.
Speaker 6 (33:26):
Okay.
Speaker 9 (33:28):
She made a statement something to the effect of, why'd
you take my kid's iPad?
Speaker 8 (33:33):
Okay, somebody heard her say that and they touched an iPad.
Speaker 3 (33:35):
I never saw the iPad.
Speaker 8 (33:37):
I don't know what this.
Speaker 3 (33:38):
iPad is about.
Speaker 8 (33:38):
The tablet or something like that.
Speaker 3 (33:40):
Again, no tablet, no iPad, no electronics at all. It
was never there, or at least I never saw it.
Speaker 6 (33:45):
Okay.
Speaker 9 (33:46):
So I have no idea was she Maybe she's wrong,
but was she asking you about a tablet or accusing
you of something with a tablet or an iPad?
Speaker 8 (33:52):
I don't know if it's an iPad or tablet. She
could have Okay.
Speaker 9 (33:55):
You seem sure some of the stuff she say and
through the door, did she say you're not really or
if she said that, she.
Speaker 3 (34:01):
Could have said it during her rants.
Speaker 4 (34:03):
Okay, Uh, so she's she's saying these things.
Speaker 8 (34:08):
The thing is, is.
Speaker 9 (34:09):
Everything that we've learned so far, I have not learned
of her ever saying to you that she wanted that
that she wanted to get into the house.
Speaker 8 (34:18):
It sounds more like she wanted to talk to you
outside of the house.
Speaker 10 (34:20):
How how do you want to talk to outside the
house when you're banging and screaming, that's not reason.
Speaker 4 (34:25):
One of the people said that she said, come outside.
Speaker 8 (34:27):
That's not what.
Speaker 3 (34:28):
I'm sorry, come out not what It's not reasonable, improven.
Speaker 10 (34:30):
I mean, you just don't, you know, bang and expect
someone to come out.
Speaker 3 (34:33):
Yeah, I think I'll come outside for.
Speaker 6 (34:35):
You, right, you can.
Speaker 4 (34:36):
Well, I know seriously what she's what she's learned, what
I'm learning.
Speaker 9 (34:40):
But these people said that she was saying to come outside.
She wanted to confront you about something. She wanted you
to come outside.
Speaker 4 (34:46):
Do you remember her making statements and asking you to
come out there and.
Speaker 6 (34:49):
Talk to her?
Speaker 3 (34:49):
Honestly, don't recall.
Speaker 9 (34:51):
Okay, so you don't remember that, and you seem unsure
about some of the statements she.
Speaker 8 (34:54):
Made about the tablet.
Speaker 9 (34:58):
No one that we've interviewed so far has made any
statements about her saying that she wanted to kill you.
Speaker 3 (35:03):
That's what I heard, okay.
Speaker 2 (35:07):
Susan continued to deny that a tablet was involved, but
she admitted she wasn't sure. In the same clip, the
detective tells her that nobody else in the area heard
aj threaten her, but Susan suddenly has a perfect memory
of that. The interview continues like that, okay, and you
just don't have the chain locked.
Speaker 3 (35:28):
I don't.
Speaker 10 (35:28):
I was going to say, I remember I didn't have
the chain. I'm not quite sure if I had the
dead bolt on or not.
Speaker 2 (35:33):
Okay, she can't remember if the dead bowl was locked.
Someone is, according to her, about to break down the
door and kill her, but she can't remember if the
dead bowl was locked.
Speaker 4 (35:45):
Well, we talked about pounding on the door.
Speaker 8 (35:46):
Did she ever pound on the glass wall? Is it
a window or wall?
Speaker 4 (35:49):
Help me, it's Stuarts, it's slighting door.
Speaker 6 (35:54):
Did she pound on that?
Speaker 10 (35:55):
I can't.
Speaker 3 (35:57):
She may have.
Speaker 6 (35:58):
I don't know.
Speaker 3 (35:58):
All I kept thinking that she's going to give it,
she's gonna kunt it.
Speaker 2 (36:01):
She can't remember if AJ went around the building and
pounded on the sliding glass door. And then the best one.
Speaker 9 (36:09):
We kind of went through your first interview, and in
that first interview you had even said to the kids.
Speaker 8 (36:13):
You don't want to go get your mom?
Speaker 3 (36:15):
No I did.
Speaker 11 (36:17):
You said something along the lines is when they said
I'm gonna go get my mom, you said go get her,
go get her.
Speaker 6 (36:22):
Which is fine.
Speaker 8 (36:23):
I want to talk to an adult too. I don't
want to talk to a kid.
Speaker 3 (36:26):
It's never saying that. And then they were like, I'm
even tell my mom, you know. I'm like, oh, tell
him how I don't care.
Speaker 7 (36:32):
You know.
Speaker 2 (36:33):
She was recorded saying what she doesn't remember saying now,
and it's possible she doesn't remember saying that. This is
why stories change when people are lying. The truth is
always the truth. If I tell you what happened truthfully,
I can tell you pretty close to the same story
a few days later. Because I'm recalling the truth, I
(36:54):
don't have to remember parts of the story that relies.
Susan made a comment about not care hearing that the
kids were going to tell their mother, which was likely
the truth, but over the course of the investigation, she
needed to play up how scared of AJ she was,
which involved convincing herself that she was afraid of AJ.
So the way she remembers the events of the day
(37:15):
have changed. She remembers that AJ came to her apartment.
It was pounding on the door, threatening to kill her,
which wasn't what happened. She remembers being victimized by the
children in her neighborhood, and she remembers not having done
anything wrong. After the shooting, another neighbor called nine to
one one and her description of Susan is very interesting.
Speaker 7 (37:38):
My neighbor has been banging on the wall between our
apartments and screaming at the kids outside, and all of
a sudden, I heard what tonise sounded like a gunshot,
and then she was screaming. And I don't know if
she was running away. I just don't know. Yeah, it
(38:00):
was just one gun shot. Yeah, I only heard one.
And then she started screaming. I don't even know if
it was a gun, but that's what it sounded like.
And I'm hiding in the bathroom right now. And when
that noise went that I think was a gun, even
my cat went and ran under the bed. She lives
(38:23):
in an apartment, okay. Now, the kids play in the
little field or the empty lot next to us, and
she screams at them a lot, all right, And I
(38:45):
don't know what's going but I'm afraid to go into
my living room. And she was screaming a lot.
Speaker 2 (38:55):
It becomes clear to the detectives that Susan's version of
events is not true, and there was more than enough
evidence to prove it wasn't true. Her timeline alone was
not even close to what had actually happened. According to Susan,
she had called nine one one to report being threatened
by the children. Then about ten minutes later, AJ came
(39:16):
over and started pounding on her front door. There was
about five minutes of pounding and AJ threatening to kill
her before Susan finally retrieved her gun and fired a
shot at the door. When asked why she didn't dial
nine one one again while AJ was pounding on the door,
Susan claimed she couldn't find the phone. That implies that
(39:37):
she spent time, even a small amount of time, looking
for the phone. After the shooting, she seemed to magically
find the phone and then call nine one one again.
Speaker 9 (39:47):
From some of the other statements we've got, some of
the things that we've learned, it sounds more like there
was three knocks and then there was three more and
then she was shot.
Speaker 8 (39:56):
It sounds like this was very quick.
Speaker 4 (39:58):
It sounds like this was like within a sp of
less than twenty.
Speaker 8 (40:01):
Seconds, is what I would say.
Speaker 4 (40:03):
Is it possible that your time is awfulness?
Speaker 10 (40:07):
It could be okay, because to me it felt like
forever okay.
Speaker 9 (40:12):
So if I mean, if this is if this is
like what's being described as a twenty second This is
a brief encounter. It's a brief encounter with loud banging,
with loud yelling. The statements that some of the stavients
that you're saying.
Speaker 4 (40:27):
Occurred, like I'm going to kill you and those kind
of threats.
Speaker 9 (40:31):
No one else has heard you and no one else
has heard her snake those statements, Okay.
Speaker 2 (40:36):
Yet another detail that Susan can't remember correctly. The detectives
also win over the timeline of nine to one one
calls made from Susan's phone. Susan called nine one one
at eight fifty four pm to report the children threatening
her and hung up that call at eight fifty nine pm.
Police were dispatched to the scene at that time. She
(40:59):
called nine again at nine oh one pm two minutes later.
Based on the nine one one calls and what neighbors heard,
AJ showed up about a minute after the first nine
one one call ended. The conflict lasted about twenty seconds,
and then Susan called nine one one again. There was
no time for AJ to make repeated threats, which was
(41:21):
backed up by nobody in the area hearing any There
was no time for Susan to look for her phone
and consider calling nine one one before firing the gun.
It seems like there wasn't even enough time to consider
her options. If she didn't already have the gun in
her hand, then she would have needed to retrieve it
almost immediately after aj started pounding on her door. If
(41:45):
she did already have the gun in her hand, the
question is why this timeline is nothing like the one
she gave to detectives.
Speaker 11 (41:54):
When she first came up and started Where were you
when she started the very first time? You were in
the bathroom when she started beating, And did you come
to the door?
Speaker 7 (42:03):
Ah?
Speaker 3 (42:03):
Well, I was approaching the door and then she started screaming,
and I knew.
Speaker 6 (42:06):
Who was Okay, So that's it. I'm how to open
the story, okay.
Speaker 3 (42:09):
And because I figured if she came in, she would
be just absolutely you.
Speaker 6 (42:12):
Know, powered into the ground, alright.
Speaker 11 (42:15):
And then when it became silent that first after that
first round of a beating on your door, what where
did what did you? Where were you at then? Did
you go over?
Speaker 10 (42:25):
Just went to wash my hands, honestly, Okay, yeah, because
I didn't know who was at the door, and I'm
waiting to know, and then I was in okay, so
I didnt went back and wash my hands, okay.
Speaker 11 (42:34):
So that's the t during the time where it was
kind of quiet, and thought that maybe she went away, okay,
And when the banging and the yelling started again, Uh,
what where were you at?
Speaker 6 (42:45):
Then? I think I was in the kitchen okay, alright,
And then what happened?
Speaker 10 (42:50):
And then she just kept banging and yelling, like you
need to leave your trespassing, get off my porch, and
I'll get out of here.
Speaker 3 (42:56):
You know I'm not talking to you.
Speaker 6 (42:58):
Leave Okay. Who else was outside the door besides Aziel?
You don't know.
Speaker 2 (43:03):
What Susan described was completely disproven. The worst part is
that she fired a gun at her front door without
knowing who was on the other side. She heard Aj yelling,
but had no way of knowing if anyone else was there. Sadly,
one of AJ's sons was at the front door with her,
though he fortunately wasn't hurt. But what if it had
(43:24):
been someone else?
Speaker 9 (43:26):
What if and I was thinking about this earlier, what
if the police officer had already arrived and she is
loud and she's still yelling, and now the officer standing
in front of the door, and he does some knocks,
but she's still on that door patio, yelling, and you're shooting.
You can't see, there's no people, there's no window, there's nothing, and.
Speaker 8 (43:44):
Then you shoot. And what if the darn officer.
Speaker 4 (43:47):
Was on the other side of the door, You see
what I mean?
Speaker 9 (43:49):
And obviously she's still runs, she still run in her mouth,
she's still going, but you don't know what's.
Speaker 8 (43:53):
On the other side of that door.
Speaker 3 (43:54):
He would have introduced him.
Speaker 9 (43:55):
I sure hope, so, I mean, and that's what some
of the issues are that I can't I can't get there,
and I don't understand entirely what.
Speaker 8 (44:04):
Was going on in your mind.
Speaker 9 (44:07):
And I don't I don't see how that is entire
Were you on alcohol or anything like?
Speaker 8 (44:12):
I gotta ask these questions.
Speaker 4 (44:12):
Were there anything in your mind that would impair.
Speaker 8 (44:15):
Yourself in your judgments?
Speaker 3 (44:16):
I took delty earlier.
Speaker 6 (44:18):
In that day. What is what is that?
Speaker 3 (44:20):
It was from my back?
Speaker 8 (44:22):
Okay? Is that a narcotic?
Speaker 4 (44:23):
I'm not a muscle relax I'm guessing.
Speaker 3 (44:26):
Here it's a pain reliever.
Speaker 8 (44:28):
Okay, that's a pain reliever.
Speaker 2 (44:31):
What if the officer had just stepped up to the door.
She had called nine one one. She was expecting someone
to arrive. What if a different neighbor had been there.
What if someone else had come out and was going
to try to calm down aj. The entire situation is
just so irresponsible on Susan's part, And at the end
(44:52):
of the day, Susan's thoughts were only about Susan.
Speaker 11 (44:56):
You said, let me ask you this. You said that
you went on Facebook today. I can only imagine that
at some point you may have seen some of the news.
Speaker 6 (45:05):
Dealing with this case. In this story, Yes, okay, what
kind of stuff did you say?
Speaker 10 (45:09):
I threw a tablet at the child, I said all
kinds of things.
Speaker 3 (45:13):
That I never said.
Speaker 6 (45:15):
You know what I saw. I saw four kids that
no longer have a mother.
Speaker 11 (45:21):
And I'm not taking away how you were treated, But
those are her children, nonetheless, right, and now they don't
have a mother to go home to.
Speaker 2 (45:35):
When Susan saw the news, all she cared about was
what people had said about her. No sympathy for the
person she had murdered, the person she supposedly was not
trying to kill when she fired a shot directly at her.
No sympathy for the children who no longer had a mother,
just concern for what people were saying about her. This
(45:56):
is the type of person who would definitely hurt or
kill someone, and again if they were not punished for
this crime. She had no sense of responsibility and still
only thought about the entire situation with her own victimhood
in mind. When the detectives were finished interviewing her, they
told her that she was being charged with manslaughter and
this was her final selfish act.
Speaker 6 (46:19):
All right, I'm gonna have you go with this deputy here.
Speaker 3 (46:23):
No, I'm sorry, no, no, what I can't what's wrong?
Speaker 6 (46:27):
What's going on?
Speaker 3 (46:28):
Just can't I'm sorry, I can't do me.
Speaker 11 (46:34):
I mean, we're unfortunately, we're to that point where that's
what's gonna happen.
Speaker 6 (46:41):
Obviously, this isn't a conviction.
Speaker 11 (46:44):
This is you being charged and then you're gonna have
your band court to present your side of the story. Okay,
so you're gonna go with this deputy. You're gonna be
booked in no, no, and fingerprinted. They're gonna take your
pictures and then you will have uh enter ring in
the morning.
Speaker 3 (47:07):
I'm not gonna go.
Speaker 8 (47:07):
Sorry, there's a phone down there.
Speaker 4 (47:10):
You'll be able to call whoever you need to call,
and right there booking.
Speaker 3 (47:13):
I'm not going, but.
Speaker 4 (47:16):
Susan, you we are.
Speaker 8 (47:17):
We are going.
Speaker 9 (47:19):
There's no change in that now you're you're under arrest.
In fact, we probably go ahead and put a handcuffs
on it. Let's get Susan, get your no cuffed. Stand up, Susan,
stand up, Susan.
Speaker 4 (47:32):
You can go one of two ways, and go an
easy way, or can go a really hard way.
Speaker 3 (47:35):
I'm sorry.
Speaker 8 (47:36):
We don't want to go the hard way. I'm so sorry, Susan.
Put yourself in our position. We there's no choice in this.
Speaker 6 (47:40):
You're going.
Speaker 8 (47:41):
You're going over there.
Speaker 3 (47:42):
It's sorry, I.
Speaker 6 (47:43):
Can't do this, Susan.
Speaker 11 (47:45):
You understand that from from the point of the story
that you've given us that by refusing and and resisting
that it's it's making making you look bad.
Speaker 6 (47:57):
Okay, and I understand your reluctance. Don't want to go.
Speaker 3 (48:00):
I just can't take.
Speaker 6 (48:00):
Okay, Well, they have medical staff over there in the front.
Speaker 11 (48:04):
Can you give them the prescription medications that you're taking
all of that.
Speaker 6 (48:08):
They will assist you and making sure that you get
the care you need. But we're going over there. Okay,
You're going to go over there, and I just can't
do this. Okay. Well, come on, Susan, stand up.
Speaker 3 (48:19):
I can't do this.
Speaker 11 (48:20):
Okay, But do you understand when you're under arrest and
you're gonna be taken to the jail one way or another.
Speaker 6 (48:25):
Okay, I don't care, Susan, I just can't do this.
Speaker 3 (48:28):
I'm sorry.
Speaker 2 (48:30):
She was so entitled that she thought she would get
away with killing her neighbor that she tried to refuse
being taken to jail like a spoiled child that had
never learned to take responsibility for her actions. She is
truly an awful person. AJ's family and supporters criticized the
decision to pursue manslaughter instead of second degree murder charges.
(48:53):
State Attorney William Gladson explain they just needed evidence of hatred, spite,
ill will, or evil intense towards the victim to charge
second degree murder, but the investigation couldn't prove that. He
acknowledged the community wanted harsher charges, but said his obligationist
state attorneys to follow the law. The metal door that
(49:14):
separated both women became the prosecution's strongest evidence. He stressed
that aj Owens couldn't pose an immediate threat. While standing
outside Susan lawrence secured home, he said, quote, it's not
a crime to bang on somebody's door. It's not a
crime to yell. It was also revealed that Susan had
(49:34):
looked up information about stand your ground laws right before
the shooting, adding credibility to the idea that the shooting
was pre planned. She actually used the term reasonable and
prudent multiple times while being interviewed by detectives, which is
the exact wording used in information about stand your ground
laws that triggered investigators to look into her search history.
(50:00):
Us And Lawrence was found guilty of manslaughter and sentenced
to twenty five years in prison. Ajaca Owen's family and
their attorneys started the Standing in the Gap Fund right
after AJ's death. Their main goal was to make sure
her children would have proper education, housing, and psychological support.
The community showed strong support quickly, and hundreds of people
(50:22):
donated money in the first month. There is a lot
of discourse about self defense and guns in the United States.
It's argued that having more people be armed will make
the community safer, but incidents like this seem to prove otherwise.
Too many people get shot for completely benign actions like
knocking on the wrong door. But even encountering someone who's
(50:45):
angry shouldn't mean firearms are immediately the answer. People get angry,
it doesn't mean they're a threat. Then you take into
consideration that different people reacted differently to different situations. There
was a question of racial motivation in this case. Would
Susan have perceived her life was in danger if a
white person was pounding on her door. It seems unlikely. Obviously,
(51:10):
it takes a monster to think an unarmed black woman
is such a threat she deserves to be shot within
twenty seconds. But there will be no end to people
dying at the hands of guns as long as they
are readily available to anybody who wants one. If you're
the victim of domestic abuse, please reach out to someone
for help. Please talk to your local shelter, call the
(51:31):
National Domestic Abuse Hotline at one eight hundred seven nine
nine safe that's one eight hundred seven ninety nine seven
two three three, or you can go to the hotline
dot org to chat with someone online. If you're having
feelings of harming yourself or someone else, or even just
need someone to talk to. Please contact your local mental
health facility call nine one one, or call the National
(51:53):
Suicide Prevention Hotline by simply dialing nine eight eight in
the United States, they're available twenty four hours a day,
seven days a week, and we'll talk to you about
any mental health issue you might be facing. If you're
a member of the LGBTQ plus community and suffering from discrimination, depression,
or are in need of any support, please contact the
lgbt National Hotline at one eight eight eight eight four
(52:16):
three four five six four, or go to LGBT hootline
dot org. Thanks so much for letting me tell you
this story. If you're a fan of true crime, you
can subscribe to this show so you don't miss an episode.
My other show, Somewhere Sinister is no longer getting new episodes,
but you can check it out if you like interesting
stories from history that aren't necessarily true crime, but true
(52:37):
crime adjacent. It's available anywhere that you listen to podcasts.
You can also check out my personal vlog, Giles with
a Jay, which is sporadically updated with stuff about my
personal life, travel and music. It's available on YouTube. If
you'd like to support the show, check out our merchandise
at thisismonsters dot com. A link is in the description.
(52:58):
Thanks again and be safe so
He's the window that here, you have your table bags.
Speaker 2 (00:05):
There is still someone with a gun.
Speaker 3 (00:07):
He's been tied.
Speaker 2 (00:08):
Okay, where where that's no sorry, she's in the house.
Speaker 4 (00:13):
Bro that apartment right here, his first apartment.
Speaker 5 (00:17):
I need like, wake up, baby, wake up, wake up,
wake up baby, wake up a wake up?
Speaker 6 (00:31):
Did wh did you see your real quick?
Speaker 7 (00:32):
Maybe? Wake up?
Speaker 5 (00:34):
Hey, wake up?
Speaker 1 (00:35):
Let me see we have any poll?
Speaker 3 (00:39):
Do we have any poll? We got poll?
Speaker 5 (00:48):
We got poll.
Speaker 6 (00:56):
I'm the frock from all right, let's go up.
Speaker 4 (01:00):
Out of your hands off?
Speaker 1 (01:03):
Is American sheriff of cut up, out of.
Speaker 5 (01:05):
Your heads off?
Speaker 6 (01:12):
Show me your hands, show.
Speaker 2 (01:14):
Your hands, turn around, turn around.
Speaker 8 (01:17):
Where's your gun at?
Speaker 6 (01:20):
Yeah?
Speaker 8 (01:21):
Hand on the review?
Speaker 6 (01:21):
In the tame? Is there anybody else in the house?
Speaker 3 (01:23):
To somebody else on house?
Speaker 6 (01:26):
Can I just.
Speaker 2 (01:26):
No, no, no, no, right now, you're not under rested.
Speaker 3 (01:30):
Be in the tame? Okay?
Speaker 4 (01:33):
Over here.
Speaker 2 (01:43):
On June second, twenty twenty three, police in Ocala, Florida,
were called to the scene of a shooting. Fifty eight
year old Susan Lawrence had shot thirty five year old
Ogica oh Wents through her front door at about nine
pm after a neighborhood dispute. Susan claimed she fired in
self defense, but an investigation would reveal that that was
(02:04):
not actually the case. This is monsters. Susan Lawrence was
(02:35):
born on July twenty third, nineteen sixty four, and some
sources say she grew up in Florida. In one of
her police interviews, she claims she was sexually assaulted and
beaten by a family member in New Jersey repeatedly between
the ages of four and twenty. It's also mentioned that
she lived in Michigan as well, so it's unclear where
(02:56):
she was born or where she grew up. It's been
reported that she grew up in a conservative household and
that her family was hostile towards the growing diversity in
the area. Whichever area that may have been. I couldn't
find any information that showed she was ever married or
had children of her own. Something went wrong in her household, though,
(03:17):
because in August of twenty twenty four, Susan's sister, Ellen Lawrence,
was arrested and charged with child neglect. Police had responded
to the woman, who also lived in Oaklam, multiple times
based on reports of leaving her nine year old son
alone with no food, and she had failed to provide
the child with proper medication. So to me, there was
(03:39):
clearly a lack of moral compass when it came to
the Lawrence sisters. Susan mentioned in her first police interview
that she had a PhD. In it's unclear what subject
it was in. She had worked for United Healthcare, but
by the time of the incident she was not working
and seeking disability. She lived in an apartment on Southwest
(04:02):
one hundred and seventh Lane and Oculla starting in twenty twenty,
and she was described as reclusive and stubborn. Her neighbors
reported that she was known for her quick temper and
her interactions with others were often contentious. Neighbors said that
Susan was particularly hostile towards children, and it makes me
wonder what happened to her and her sister that made
(04:23):
them treat children negatively. There isn't much known about her
past and the psychology behind both of their actions as
a mystery. After the Owens family moved in across the street,
Susan seemed to focus her rage on those children. Aujica
Owens went by AJ. In all of Susan's interviews, she
(04:44):
calls her neighbor a Jake, showing that she didn't seem
to have made any effort to get to know her.
Speaker 8 (04:50):
So the woman that got shot, what is her name?
Speaker 6 (04:54):
A jen?
Speaker 4 (04:55):
Aj it's aj okay.
Speaker 2 (04:57):
Even after having been corrected, she can te. I used
to call Audica a je ike throughout both of our interviews,
showing a complete lack of respect for the woman she
had shot. People in the neighborhood described Susan constantly provoking
the children, recording them, and they said she called them
racial slurs. She described that their relationship was contentious in
(05:19):
a later interview.
Speaker 4 (05:21):
So the woman that got shot, what is her name?
Speaker 3 (05:25):
Aj it's aj okay?
Speaker 8 (05:27):
And how long have you known her?
Speaker 3 (05:30):
I really didn't know her. I just you know she
was a neighbor across the street. Okay, So how.
Speaker 8 (05:34):
Long has she been a neighbor across the street from me?
How understand that?
Speaker 6 (05:37):
A year and a half?
Speaker 3 (05:37):
Two years?
Speaker 8 (05:38):
Okay, year and a half and two years?
Speaker 9 (05:40):
And in that year and a half and two years,
how many times have you guys been able to talk?
Speaker 3 (05:45):
We have never talked. It's more like screaming.
Speaker 9 (05:47):
Okay, all right, so maybe better go to recommunicate. How
many times have you guys been able to communicate in
that year and a half or two years, two three times,
two or three times. And in those two or three
times over a year and a half and two years,
what were you guys screaming about?
Speaker 8 (05:59):
Were you guys communicating about?
Speaker 10 (06:01):
She would take her dog and walk it on my
side work to make sure it shit on the side walking.
Speaker 6 (06:05):
Why are you kidding me?
Speaker 8 (06:06):
Yeah?
Speaker 10 (06:07):
No, one the places you can take your animal are
you're gonna come here? She said, it's the only place
went OOCLACU to the bathroom.
Speaker 3 (06:13):
Okay, So no, I don't think so.
Speaker 6 (06:15):
Okay.
Speaker 9 (06:16):
So you guys would have a disagreement regarding that, some
screaming regarding the dog poop and where it showed it? Uh,
what else would you guys communicate out in that two
or three times?
Speaker 10 (06:24):
The one time she was talking to the neighbors and
she said on a picture there was crazy and I'm like, no.
Speaker 6 (06:29):
I'm not gonna you know.
Speaker 3 (06:30):
Sorry, I woke you.
Speaker 6 (06:31):
I said, what is your problem?
Speaker 10 (06:33):
And she just went on a tirade. I have never
heard someone scream like this one. And I was like,
Jesus Christ, uh huh, And I mean she she exploded
her and I'm like.
Speaker 6 (06:41):
Oh shit, how long ago was that?
Speaker 3 (06:43):
Two months ago?
Speaker 6 (06:44):
Two months, two.
Speaker 3 (06:45):
Three months ago?
Speaker 10 (06:46):
And then she was she was saying I called her
kids all kinds of names, and I'm like, uh no,
I didn't. And the more I said no, the more
I rate she got. Finally, I'm like, you know, let
me just back off, say yes, I'll apologize and discovery away.
Speaker 4 (06:59):
What one of things was She's saying that you called
her kids, I called them.
Speaker 10 (07:04):
Racial slurs, that I called them slaves, and that's never happened.
I mean, when she said, I wanting to stop already,
stop lying, you know, and I was like, enough what
I did call them retards once?
Speaker 3 (07:17):
Because they just kept calling and calling. I said, are
you retarding if you can't read the sign?
Speaker 6 (07:21):
Okay?
Speaker 3 (07:22):
You know how many times do we have to tell
you you're trespassing?
Speaker 7 (07:24):
You know?
Speaker 2 (07:26):
Obviously, Susan became known as the neighborhood Karen. In case
you don't know what a karen is, Miriam Webster's Dictionary
states karen is a slang term used to disparage a
stereotypically middle class, middle aged white woman who rebukes or
reports others in angry, sometimes racist public displays. I think
(07:48):
it's safe to say that Susan fits that description. She
began making calls to nine to one one to report
the children who are playing in the area, and local
officers became well known own with the lonely Woman.
Speaker 8 (08:04):
So it's gonna be a plan of Disney.
Speaker 1 (08:11):
I can't really go into everything, but she mean, she
is in custody.
Speaker 6 (08:16):
But yeah, I do know.
Speaker 9 (08:17):
But the only reason why I'm saying it, it's gonna
be chaos, you know what I mean.
Speaker 6 (08:26):
I'm very familiar with.
Speaker 8 (08:29):
I don't work the zone anymore, but I'm very familiar.
Speaker 6 (08:32):
With, so I know the situation and what she has.
Speaker 1 (08:37):
Done and everything.
Speaker 6 (08:40):
Now.
Speaker 2 (08:40):
I've lived in a number of apartments as well as
houses in various residential areas. I've lived in a few
places that were more rural and you could scream and
yell or say have your punk band practice there, and
nobody would ever notice. I've also lived in the city
where you could hear traffic and people shouting, or carl
alarms and police sirens of all times. The other option
(09:02):
is to live in the suburbs, where you're between the
city and the wilderness, and generally there are going to
be other people close enough to still affect you. There
are pros and cons to everything. You can live out
in the country and it's much quieter and oftentimes it's
more affordable, but you're further away from things work, schools, shopping,
so transportation is an issue. You can live in the
(09:26):
city and just walk to work in school, but it's
noisy and more populated. Most people's happy medium is to
live in the suburbs. It can be quieter and conveniently
located not too far from the places you need to go.
I found that the suburbs tend to be quieter in
the middle of the night and during work hours in
the middle of the day, but afternoons, evenings and weekends
(09:48):
can be noisier. Kids are out playing and people are
working on weekend projects. That's the con to balance out
the benefits of living in that type of area. If
your priority is and especially if children screaming bothers you,
living in a suburban neighborhood surrounded by average families with
children is not your best option. I know not everyone
(10:11):
is able to find the perfect place to live, but
that's where being a reasonable human being comes in. You
have to understand how the world works, identify that where
you live is not the perfect place for you, and
not expect everyone else around you to modify their behavior
in order to appease you. Fighting with children is not
(10:31):
what a reasonable adult should do. A reasonable adult would
put up heavy curtains that help block sound, or get
headphones to use with their television or radio. And asking
the children to keep it down or move to a
different areas not out of the question. But you need
to be polite, something that neighbors said, Susan never was.
(10:52):
Early in my marriage, my wife and I lived in
an apartment complex. We didn't have children yet, so it
was just a one bedroom apartment on the ground flot.
It was a decent sized complex that had multiple buildings
and there were one or two playgrounds for the children
in the complex to play on. We never considered the
location of the playgrounds when we got the apartment, but
(11:14):
one of them was right outside our back door. There
was the front door on the side of the building
with the road and parking lot and a glass slider
at the backside with the little patio. Then twenty feet
or about six meters away was a full playground, so
every day the group of children would be out there
playing just outside of our living room. They were toddlers
(11:37):
up to preteens, and children that age don't have the
ability to control the sounds they make. When something excites them,
they scream at the top of their lungs. They haven't
developed the context for how the sounds they make affect
other people. Their parents tell them not to scream or
to be quieter, and that's fine. That helps them learn
(11:57):
the appropriate volumes for different situations. But little kids don't
know yet. That's why a toddler in a grocery store,
we'll ask his mom for candy like she's on the
other side of the store, when she's actually right next
to him. The concept of appropriate volume is not something
human beings are born with. In my opinion, it takes
(12:18):
a very broken person to believe that children should be
under perfect control all the time. You don't need to
understand child's psychology or even know enough about children to
take care of them, but it's hard to accept that
anybody doesn't have the basic grasp that children are learning
how to behave and will be loud by nature.
Speaker 3 (12:38):
I only love him by his name, said Peto.
Speaker 10 (12:41):
So okay, so he's a guy. He gets old, he
gets together so they're screaming and yelling, and they're doing
all this crazy stuff and I only stop.
Speaker 3 (12:50):
Ready, And I asked him, I said, please stop. I
don't like the yelling. Just you know, I'm sorry to
break down.
Speaker 8 (12:56):
I'll take your time.
Speaker 2 (12:58):
She's on the verge of tears, but not about an
innocent woman, a mother of four children being murdered. She's
on the verge of tears thinking about the kids screaming
and yelling. It feels like she grew up never being
able to have fun. On June second, twenty twenty three,
Susan had become upset at the neighborhood children again and
(13:21):
dialed nine one one at eight fifty four pm.
Speaker 7 (13:24):
All right, and.
Speaker 6 (13:25):
Something exactly what happened?
Speaker 1 (13:27):
I think I could trust pass from standard, leaving all
the toys around me, just dreaming, knowing, just being absolutely naxious.
I went in through the lower stakes over together side
to take those and I have a piece up for that.
And he's mouth and lost to me, all right, right
in my own home. The several kids out there right now,
(13:47):
and I'm cheering from her life. I'm very scared. Okay,
were there any weapons in the hold?
Speaker 2 (13:57):
I no, how many people are involved.
Speaker 1 (14:03):
Earlier, there was about twenty kids out there streaming Yellen,
passing the wives. They're like through you now the three
boys three yes, okay. I just don't like them coming
around my house. They've been coming onto my debts, my patio,
and it's telling me get up, get up when I'm
watching TV with stuff. They have no business over here.
There's no trespassing.
Speaker 10 (14:23):
Sell.
Speaker 1 (14:25):
I don't like the kids threateningly that they're going to
beat me up, that they're going to get someone else
to kill me. This is just ridiculous. They just see
bad dreaming and bad dream just pricklly stik. Now that
they're home from school, it's like, you know, crazy, because
what's going to happen is his mom's going to go out,
wait for the officer and run and say, oh my god,
(14:46):
I was threatening her kids, which this isn't true.
Speaker 2 (14:50):
So that evening she called emergency services about the kids
trespassing outside of her house. She claimed that they threatened
her with violence, and an offic USIR was dispatched to
the scene. What she didn't tell the operator while she
was making herself out to be a victim, was that
she had already confronted the children that were outside. There
(15:12):
was some conflict over a tablet. One of the kids
said she took his tablet, and she denied that. I
don't know that the truth about what happened to the
tablet was ever determined, but that caused a conflict. Then
Susan had gone outside, picked up a roller skate and
thrown it at one of the kids. Of course, Susan
(15:33):
claimed she didn't throw it at them, she just threw it,
but one of the children said it hit them. Then
she grabbed an umbrella and swung it at the kids. Again,
Susan denied that and said she brought the umbrella outside
because she thought it was raining, because when you're standing
in an open door in your house, it's so hard
to tell whether or not it's raining. Right, those actions
(15:57):
had upset the mother of those children, who happened to
be a j Owens. Now, as a parent, if my
neighbor threatened my children with physical violence, I would likely
approach them and question them about what happened, and based
on what my child told me, I would probably be angry,
especially if they said the neighbor had thrown something at
them or swung something at them. My first step would
(16:20):
be to talk to the neighbor and try to fix
the problem. Susan apparently did not think that was the
right course of action in your head.
Speaker 11 (16:29):
You know, during the panic, during all these thoughts, how
what did you feel that was going to happen?
Speaker 10 (16:35):
And she didn't come in there beat the shit on
me until I was dead, Okay, I mean that's what
I felt. I mean, I don't understand why she came
over my house. If there was all these issues and problems,
Why did she.
Speaker 6 (16:44):
Just call somebody?
Speaker 3 (16:45):
You know, that's to me, that's what you would do
if you're normal.
Speaker 6 (16:48):
You know, that's a.
Speaker 3 (16:49):
Normal thing to do. Something happens to me.
Speaker 10 (16:51):
I call them police, you know, like, okay, you know
the kids are being mine or she's banging in you know.
But when I couldn't find my phone and everything, I
was just like shit, I thought she.
Speaker 6 (17:03):
Was going to kill me.
Speaker 2 (17:05):
That is a Karen's point of view, that you need
to call the police for everything, to call the police
every time kids are outside being loud. That is why
the neighbors called her a Karen because she was one.
Aj on the other hand, wanted to talk to her
neighbor about how her children had been treated by her.
(17:27):
Was she upset, of course, but Susan believed that she
was threatening to kill her. That's when Susan retrieved a
handgun and fired a single round into her front door.
Then she called nine one one again.
Speaker 7 (17:42):
Nye, dad, just let the emergency to burst shut. Okay,
I repeat that, just for me to make sure I
have a correct Okay, what is your name?
Speaker 5 (18:04):
Okay? What's going?
Speaker 7 (18:05):
Take a deep breast on the calm down? Oh my god,
you guys, someone trying to break down your door?
Speaker 3 (18:11):
Is that correct?
Speaker 7 (18:12):
Yes?
Speaker 1 (18:13):
The woman was screaming and yelling and she was trying
to break down my door, and she was.
Speaker 7 (18:19):
Okay it was a female. Yes.
Speaker 1 (18:23):
I didn't know what to do like that my gun
and I just saw that the door.
Speaker 7 (18:31):
Oh my, you shot at the doors?
Speaker 1 (18:34):
That correct? I thought it was gonna wyn.
Speaker 7 (18:38):
She wouldn't it. Okay, where's your gun now?
Speaker 5 (18:49):
It's it's in my bedroom.
Speaker 7 (18:52):
I didn't want to do.
Speaker 1 (19:02):
This is the woman who attacks me? Okay? You still
see the subject.
Speaker 7 (19:07):
I don't.
Speaker 2 (19:12):
Susan is clearly freaking out, but that is completely contrasted
by your composure when she's taken into custody from your ants,
from your ants turn around, Turn around?
Speaker 4 (19:24):
Where's your gun attained?
Speaker 10 (19:29):
Is there anybody else in the house?
Speaker 6 (19:33):
Can I just no right now?
Speaker 8 (19:36):
You're not under rested entertained.
Speaker 2 (19:50):
She's cool as a cucumber. On top of her being
completely calm by the time the authorities get there. She
also bad mouths the victims during the one.
Speaker 1 (20:00):
Call and did you know that? Did you know her?
She's come out from me several times because of her
children are still think he's truck passing over here. They're
bothering me and bothering.
Speaker 7 (20:12):
They won't sucking up stop. Is she a neighbor?
Speaker 1 (20:17):
Yes?
Speaker 7 (20:19):
You know where she lives?
Speaker 6 (20:22):
I don't know.
Speaker 7 (20:23):
I don't know.
Speaker 1 (20:23):
She's the old broken down honda with something white color
in front of her house. It's old garbage, he said,
a white honda. Yes, she has a new accurate And
do you see the.
Speaker 7 (20:40):
Do you see the male subject or you just see
the female?
Speaker 1 (20:45):
See her Boyfrid here earlier? They keeps eating his garbage
all around the house, and then I told him to
take the crap away, get the fuck out of here.
Speaker 2 (20:53):
Most people are focused on the shooting when something like
this happens. The fact that Susan is still focused on
insulting the person she just shot is very telling. It
puts her motivation for the shooting into some perspective. She
tells investigators that she fired a shot because of how
much she was in fear for her life, but peppering
(21:14):
in little jabs at the person she's supposedly in fear
of doesn't add up. A sheriff's deputy was already on
the way, and once the calls about the shooting came in,
more deputies and an ambulance were sent. Aj had been
shot in the chest and had stumbled out into the grass.
Paramedics arrived and took her to the hospital, where she
(21:35):
died from her wounds. While on the scene, one deputy
got some information from one of the children who was involved.
Speaker 7 (21:44):
I got.
Speaker 1 (21:47):
I went to get it.
Speaker 7 (21:48):
I said, all right, but come on.
Speaker 8 (21:51):
Here for a thinking.
Speaker 2 (21:53):
If y'all were here when it happened, to stand right
here so I know who was out here when it happened.
Speaker 6 (21:57):
Okay, okay.
Speaker 7 (22:00):
I got over there because we were playing games, and
I went to go get in.
Speaker 1 (22:04):
I said, give my back this.
Speaker 10 (22:06):
Yeah.
Speaker 7 (22:06):
She prot to try to pull these kids at me
and I.
Speaker 6 (22:11):
I and then I got my brother.
Speaker 1 (22:14):
She said, come in me.
Speaker 4 (22:15):
With the streets, and then.
Speaker 11 (22:19):
All right, but give me a minute, just hang out
on my car, okay.
Speaker 2 (22:25):
The deputies were eventually told just to take down contact
information and that the detectives would conduct interviews. Obviously, Susan
was taken into custody, though she was technically not placed
under arrest. She was taken to the station and interviewed
by detectives.
Speaker 6 (22:43):
So what happened tonight That led to the conclusion.
Speaker 10 (22:46):
Well, I just like kids go home, so they go home,
and then all of a sudden, she comes out and
she is just banging on my door and like, go away,
I'm not dealing with you tonight.
Speaker 3 (22:57):
And then she started playing so hard.
Speaker 10 (22:59):
Everything started shaking, and I'm like, you really need to leave,
and she I'll lit to fucking kill you.
Speaker 5 (23:04):
And she's just.
Speaker 3 (23:05):
Banging and banging away.
Speaker 10 (23:07):
You know, I'm like crazy, and she has actually wanted
to be I'm like, it just just keeps getting worse
and worse.
Speaker 3 (23:13):
I'm like I don't know what to do with her.
Speaker 10 (23:15):
And she bang so hard it looked like my door
was going to fly off, and that's why I just
panicked and I was like, oh my god, she's really
going to kill me this time, you know, And so
I don't even actually remember picking up again, and I
just remember shooting.
Speaker 6 (23:27):
Where do you keep the gun?
Speaker 3 (23:28):
Usually it's in my bedroom.
Speaker 6 (23:30):
That's where you keep it, like him.
Speaker 10 (23:33):
In a cabinet or something or just like it's just
actually keep it in the trash can.
Speaker 6 (23:38):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (23:39):
That was the beginning of Susan's tale of aj coming
to her house and threatening to kill her. She claimed
that she was banging on the door so hard it
was shaking the entire house. The house was built of
cinder block, and the detective eventually went back to the
scene and tried to recreate the situation and could not
make the house shake. Of course, as you'll soon learn,
(24:02):
everything that Susan says is a complete exaggeration. By the
time Susan was interviewed, investigators had spoken to people in
the area so prior to.
Speaker 6 (24:15):
Her coming over there.
Speaker 11 (24:19):
And banging on your door, because we talked to a
lot of people that were out there at the time,
and there was some statements given to us that you
had taken a.
Speaker 6 (24:34):
Tablet or picked up a tablet that was instaground.
Speaker 10 (24:36):
Absolutely not no, okay, that child like the other day,
he said, to me, I'm going to go tell my
mom that you called me a slave.
Speaker 3 (24:45):
And he came over with a rake and he was
pounding everything with the rake. I think it really seriously,
is I don't know what's going on with that child?
Speaker 6 (24:53):
And which child is that what you're talking about?
Speaker 10 (24:56):
It's on the video if you live, if you get
me made phone off, sure which child it is?
Speaker 3 (25:01):
I don't know my names?
Speaker 6 (25:05):
Is it one of the older ones? Yeah?
Speaker 11 (25:07):
Okay? And what was the what was the deal with
the roller skates? Cause again, we talked to a lot
of people who were.
Speaker 10 (25:13):
Outside and they some of those deep leaving all their
toys around the other day, I almost killed myself going out.
Speaker 3 (25:19):
I had an early morning doctor's appointment and I didn't
see the roller skate. I almost killed myself. I'm like, guys,
you know, stop already and.
Speaker 10 (25:26):
This is not your garbage or you know, the kids
got his roller skates there, and I'm like, really, take
your roller skates.
Speaker 3 (25:32):
I threw the roller skates. I'm like, go fetch 'em,
you know, just enough.
Speaker 6 (25:36):
Because did you throw that at them? Or okay? Now,
I just what is the thing about the umbrella? Like
can you had an umbrella.
Speaker 3 (25:43):
I thought it was raining before. When I walked out
and it wasn't raining, I'm like okay, so okay, And.
Speaker 6 (25:50):
He swung it at them or some or one of them.
Speaker 3 (25:52):
I wasn't even close. I was still inside the vestib.
Speaker 6 (25:55):
So how how can we explain that? Then?
Speaker 11 (25:57):
What people saying, like multiple people that weren't like talking
to each other that if they were saying that that.
Speaker 6 (26:05):
That's what they saw.
Speaker 10 (26:08):
Maybe I did step out and I'm like, guys, go away,
go away, But I would never touch it.
Speaker 6 (26:13):
Yeah, I like swat at them with it.
Speaker 3 (26:15):
But my exactly if I did it, it was probably
because I was just totally and like, come on.
Speaker 2 (26:21):
This is the problem with people like this. Their memory
is selective. When she describes how Aj threatened her, she
had a perfect memory. She is absolutely sure that Aj
said she was going to kill her. Then when someone
says she swung an umbrella at the kids, her memory
suddenly gets cloudy. And for many people in a situation
(26:41):
like this, it might not necessarily be a flat out lie,
it's the way they've interpreted the situation. Susan had already
decided that Aj was a danger, so her memory of
any perceived threats are heightened, making even benign actions seem threatening.
At the same time, she believes she's the victim, so
no matter how threatening her own behavior is, it doesn't
(27:04):
register as being a big deal to her. She's the victim,
so clearly any of her actions were not meant to
be threatening, and everything that happens to her is exaggerated.
There was a roller skate outside and she nearly killed
herself because of it. Right after the interview, Susan was
released while the detectives continued their investigation. Susan said she
(27:29):
was going to stay in a hotel because she didn't
feel safe going home, which is funny because so far
she was the only person in her neighborhood who had
killed somebody. Over the next few days, more interviews were
conducted and surveillance video was reviewed. On June sixth, protesters
gathered outside of the Marion County Judicial Center to demand
(27:50):
that Susan be arrested, and the state attorney told them
that the investigation was ongoing and that they should be patient.
The following day, Susan was back in for a second interview,
and quite a few details were uncovered.
Speaker 10 (28:05):
And I asked him, I said, please, I said you
know when my friends was murdered when I was very young,
and she screamed.
Speaker 3 (28:12):
She was bound and gagged.
Speaker 10 (28:13):
And she they the guy thought he killed her and
she screamed. And so every time those little kids scream,
I keep thinking of my friend Elizabeth.
Speaker 6 (28:21):
Tell me about that.
Speaker 3 (28:22):
Whoa so?
Speaker 10 (28:23):
And I asked him, I said to Peter, please, these
kids screaming like this, it's these triggering men.
Speaker 3 (28:27):
I don't wanna hear this, you know. And he's like, Ah,
you're full of shit, You're a liar, your cunt or
this or that.
Speaker 10 (28:32):
I'm like, really, why would I tell the story?
Speaker 3 (28:35):
And it's not true.
Speaker 11 (28:36):
I know, this is kind of not really r related
to what we're talking about. Well, what what happened with
your friend is that when you were very young or
at fourteen?
Speaker 3 (28:45):
Oh my god, So that guy came and he raped
her and he Peter and he thought he killed her
and he bound her up. She was at Chilton Factory, uh,
the old spice factory in Jersey.
Speaker 10 (28:54):
Oh, and next to it was a children's playground. And
he buried her there in a shallow grave.
Speaker 3 (29:00):
And she wasn't dead. So when the corner.
Speaker 10 (29:05):
Said that it was all dirt and her lungs because
she keets screamed and screaming, screaming, So every time those
little girls screamed, it just kind of, you know, the.
Speaker 3 (29:12):
Everything with Elizabeth.
Speaker 2 (29:14):
During this interview, Susan tells a story about her friend
having been killed and now kids screaming triggers her. Now
we have to go back to the subject of living
in a residential area. You live in society with other people.
You can't expect the people around you to change their
lives to appease you. Susan is expecting children to not
(29:37):
scream when they play because of a crime that happened
forty four years prior that she was not involved in
with a victim. She did not physically hear scream. She
was just told the victim likely screamed. This is someone
who makes every problem about themselves. Every single thing that
has happened in life has victimized her. That murder vicctimized her.
(30:01):
The neighbor riding his four wheeler victimized her. A mother
being upset at her for abusing her kids victimized her.
She had neck surgery, so this affects her. She had
a blood clot so that affects her. Everything affects her,
and she expects everyone around her to adjust their lives accordingly,
and that's not reasonable. That's entitled. On top of that,
(30:23):
it seems like she expected people to automatically behave in
a way that catered to her. It doesn't sound like
she ever explained her position and asked for anything. The
kids were screaming, as kids do, and she was just
upset that the kids were triggering her, like they would
automatically know that she lived in a world that she
believed revolved around her. During this interview, she also explained
(30:48):
that she wanted to fire her gun to scare aj away,
not to kill her. Yet she fired a shot directly
into the door where a person would be standing. She
didn't fire into the ceiling or even into the area
above the door. She fired exactly where the bullet would
hit someone's center mass if they were standing on the
other side of that door. And she had been to
(31:10):
the range and practiced shooting.
Speaker 8 (31:13):
Are you are you experienced with firearms?
Speaker 9 (31:16):
You got two guns and sounds like you have the
little clinker and you know about the price of ammo?
Speaker 8 (31:20):
Are you well versed with them?
Speaker 3 (31:22):
I used to be terrified afar uh huh.
Speaker 10 (31:24):
And then a friend said, you know, you really can't
defend yourself.
Speaker 3 (31:27):
He said, you should think.
Speaker 6 (31:28):
About getting a gun. Okay.
Speaker 8 (31:30):
So when did you first get a gun? Was it
just or did you have other guns historically?
Speaker 7 (31:34):
No?
Speaker 3 (31:35):
I never did.
Speaker 6 (31:36):
Okay.
Speaker 10 (31:36):
I first bought a nine millimeter but it was just
way too much gun for me, so I sold it.
Speaker 3 (31:40):
Uh huh. Then I got a little three eighty okay.
Speaker 9 (31:43):
And did you go to any kind of training for
those using guns that going to the range or tell
me about that.
Speaker 10 (31:48):
I went to the range, watch videos, you know, all
the other stuff, self educating. And I was going to
go take a permits, a carry course, sure, and.
Speaker 3 (31:57):
I didn't get around.
Speaker 2 (31:59):
She was planning to get a concealed carry permit, but
luckily she never had the chance. Could you imagine if
she was walking around in society with a gun on
her an angry, bitter Karen who believed anyone who got
angry at her was a threat. The detectives tried to
get more details out of Susan to explain some of
the things they found when they talked to other people
(32:21):
in the neighborhood, but her selective memory was an issue.
Speaker 9 (32:26):
Detective Steff has been talking to you about the timeline, okay, and.
Speaker 8 (32:29):
Some of the work we've done.
Speaker 9 (32:30):
Now, this is a picture that I draw, not an
artist at all, but when I tell you some of
the work we've done. We spoke to all the people
over this is your house, by the way, okay, this
is we'll go an ask for you.
Speaker 4 (32:42):
We spoke to everybody and in these buildings.
Speaker 9 (32:44):
We spoke to them all in these buildings, and we
talked to anybody that had cameras that would see different areas.
These cameras they hear things. We're able to hear audio.
We're able to hear things like that, and everyone will
be interview I pretty much got the same detect, the
stiff that I can.
Speaker 8 (33:02):
We go.
Speaker 9 (33:02):
We got the same statement from every single person we interviewed.
We lined up, well, we didn't line them up. These people
were interviewed in different locations. Some of them were interviewed
in different buildings, in different places. I interviewed them at
different houses, and all these people provided me similar statements.
Speaker 4 (33:16):
Okay, no one in that provided these.
Speaker 9 (33:19):
Now, these people could hear her talking, okay, because she
was talking loudly.
Speaker 8 (33:23):
You said that you could hear it. Through the wall,
and I can agree with that.
Speaker 6 (33:26):
Okay.
Speaker 9 (33:28):
She made a statement something to the effect of, why'd
you take my kid's iPad?
Speaker 8 (33:33):
Okay, somebody heard her say that and they touched an iPad.
Speaker 3 (33:35):
I never saw the iPad.
Speaker 8 (33:37):
I don't know what this.
Speaker 3 (33:38):
iPad is about.
Speaker 8 (33:38):
The tablet or something like that.
Speaker 3 (33:40):
Again, no tablet, no iPad, no electronics at all. It
was never there, or at least I never saw it.
Speaker 6 (33:45):
Okay.
Speaker 9 (33:46):
So I have no idea was she Maybe she's wrong,
but was she asking you about a tablet or accusing
you of something with a tablet or an iPad?
Speaker 8 (33:52):
I don't know if it's an iPad or tablet. She
could have Okay.
Speaker 9 (33:55):
You seem sure some of the stuff she say and
through the door, did she say you're not really or
if she said that, she.
Speaker 3 (34:01):
Could have said it during her rants.
Speaker 4 (34:03):
Okay, Uh, so she's she's saying these things.
Speaker 8 (34:08):
The thing is, is.
Speaker 9 (34:09):
Everything that we've learned so far, I have not learned
of her ever saying to you that she wanted that
that she wanted to get into the house.
Speaker 8 (34:18):
It sounds more like she wanted to talk to you
outside of the house.
Speaker 10 (34:20):
How how do you want to talk to outside the
house when you're banging and screaming, that's not reason.
Speaker 4 (34:25):
One of the people said that she said, come outside.
Speaker 8 (34:27):
That's not what.
Speaker 3 (34:28):
I'm sorry, come out not what It's not reasonable, improven.
Speaker 10 (34:30):
I mean, you just don't, you know, bang and expect
someone to come out.
Speaker 3 (34:33):
Yeah, I think I'll come outside for.
Speaker 6 (34:35):
You, right, you can.
Speaker 4 (34:36):
Well, I know seriously what she's what she's learned, what
I'm learning.
Speaker 9 (34:40):
But these people said that she was saying to come outside.
She wanted to confront you about something. She wanted you
to come outside.
Speaker 4 (34:46):
Do you remember her making statements and asking you to
come out there and.
Speaker 6 (34:49):
Talk to her?
Speaker 3 (34:49):
Honestly, don't recall.
Speaker 9 (34:51):
Okay, so you don't remember that, and you seem unsure
about some of the statements she.
Speaker 8 (34:54):
Made about the tablet.
Speaker 9 (34:58):
No one that we've interviewed so far has made any
statements about her saying that she wanted to kill you.
Speaker 3 (35:03):
That's what I heard, okay.
Speaker 2 (35:07):
Susan continued to deny that a tablet was involved, but
she admitted she wasn't sure. In the same clip, the
detective tells her that nobody else in the area heard
aj threaten her, but Susan suddenly has a perfect memory
of that. The interview continues like that, okay, and you
just don't have the chain locked.
Speaker 3 (35:28):
I don't.
Speaker 10 (35:28):
I was going to say, I remember I didn't have
the chain. I'm not quite sure if I had the
dead bolt on or not.
Speaker 2 (35:33):
Okay, she can't remember if the dead bowl was locked.
Someone is, according to her, about to break down the
door and kill her, but she can't remember if the
dead bowl was locked.
Speaker 4 (35:45):
Well, we talked about pounding on the door.
Speaker 8 (35:46):
Did she ever pound on the glass wall? Is it
a window or wall?
Speaker 4 (35:49):
Help me, it's Stuarts, it's slighting door.
Speaker 6 (35:54):
Did she pound on that?
Speaker 10 (35:55):
I can't.
Speaker 3 (35:57):
She may have.
Speaker 6 (35:58):
I don't know.
Speaker 3 (35:58):
All I kept thinking that she's going to give it,
she's gonna kunt it.
Speaker 2 (36:01):
She can't remember if AJ went around the building and
pounded on the sliding glass door. And then the best one.
Speaker 9 (36:09):
We kind of went through your first interview, and in
that first interview you had even said to the kids.
Speaker 8 (36:13):
You don't want to go get your mom?
Speaker 3 (36:15):
No I did.
Speaker 11 (36:17):
You said something along the lines is when they said
I'm gonna go get my mom, you said go get her,
go get her.
Speaker 6 (36:22):
Which is fine.
Speaker 8 (36:23):
I want to talk to an adult too. I don't
want to talk to a kid.
Speaker 3 (36:26):
It's never saying that. And then they were like, I'm
even tell my mom, you know. I'm like, oh, tell
him how I don't care.
Speaker 7 (36:32):
You know.
Speaker 2 (36:33):
She was recorded saying what she doesn't remember saying now,
and it's possible she doesn't remember saying that. This is
why stories change when people are lying. The truth is
always the truth. If I tell you what happened truthfully,
I can tell you pretty close to the same story
a few days later. Because I'm recalling the truth, I
(36:54):
don't have to remember parts of the story that relies.
Susan made a comment about not care hearing that the
kids were going to tell their mother, which was likely
the truth, but over the course of the investigation, she
needed to play up how scared of AJ she was,
which involved convincing herself that she was afraid of AJ.
So the way she remembers the events of the day
(37:15):
have changed. She remembers that AJ came to her apartment.
It was pounding on the door, threatening to kill her,
which wasn't what happened. She remembers being victimized by the
children in her neighborhood, and she remembers not having done
anything wrong. After the shooting, another neighbor called nine to
one one and her description of Susan is very interesting.
Speaker 7 (37:38):
My neighbor has been banging on the wall between our
apartments and screaming at the kids outside, and all of
a sudden, I heard what tonise sounded like a gunshot,
and then she was screaming. And I don't know if
she was running away. I just don't know. Yeah, it
(38:00):
was just one gun shot. Yeah, I only heard one.
And then she started screaming. I don't even know if
it was a gun, but that's what it sounded like.
And I'm hiding in the bathroom right now. And when
that noise went that I think was a gun, even
my cat went and ran under the bed. She lives
(38:23):
in an apartment, okay. Now, the kids play in the
little field or the empty lot next to us, and
she screams at them a lot, all right, And I
(38:45):
don't know what's going but I'm afraid to go into
my living room. And she was screaming a lot.
Speaker 2 (38:55):
It becomes clear to the detectives that Susan's version of
events is not true, and there was more than enough
evidence to prove it wasn't true. Her timeline alone was
not even close to what had actually happened. According to Susan,
she had called nine one one to report being threatened
by the children. Then about ten minutes later, AJ came
(39:16):
over and started pounding on her front door. There was
about five minutes of pounding and AJ threatening to kill
her before Susan finally retrieved her gun and fired a
shot at the door. When asked why she didn't dial
nine one one again while AJ was pounding on the door,
Susan claimed she couldn't find the phone. That implies that
(39:37):
she spent time, even a small amount of time, looking
for the phone. After the shooting, she seemed to magically
find the phone and then call nine one one again.
Speaker 9 (39:47):
From some of the other statements we've got, some of
the things that we've learned, it sounds more like there
was three knocks and then there was three more and
then she was shot.
Speaker 8 (39:56):
It sounds like this was very quick.
Speaker 4 (39:58):
It sounds like this was like within a sp of
less than twenty.
Speaker 8 (40:01):
Seconds, is what I would say.
Speaker 4 (40:03):
Is it possible that your time is awfulness?
Speaker 10 (40:07):
It could be okay, because to me it felt like
forever okay.
Speaker 9 (40:12):
So if I mean, if this is if this is
like what's being described as a twenty second This is
a brief encounter. It's a brief encounter with loud banging,
with loud yelling. The statements that some of the stavients
that you're saying.
Speaker 4 (40:27):
Occurred, like I'm going to kill you and those kind
of threats.
Speaker 9 (40:31):
No one else has heard you and no one else
has heard her snake those statements, Okay.
Speaker 2 (40:36):
Yet another detail that Susan can't remember correctly. The detectives
also win over the timeline of nine to one one
calls made from Susan's phone. Susan called nine one one
at eight fifty four pm to report the children threatening
her and hung up that call at eight fifty nine pm.
Police were dispatched to the scene at that time. She
(40:59):
called nine again at nine oh one pm two minutes later.
Based on the nine one one calls and what neighbors heard,
AJ showed up about a minute after the first nine
one one call ended. The conflict lasted about twenty seconds,
and then Susan called nine one one again. There was
no time for AJ to make repeated threats, which was
(41:21):
backed up by nobody in the area hearing any There
was no time for Susan to look for her phone
and consider calling nine one one before firing the gun.
It seems like there wasn't even enough time to consider
her options. If she didn't already have the gun in
her hand, then she would have needed to retrieve it
almost immediately after aj started pounding on her door. If
(41:45):
she did already have the gun in her hand, the
question is why this timeline is nothing like the one
she gave to detectives.
Speaker 11 (41:54):
When she first came up and started Where were you
when she started the very first time? You were in
the bathroom when she started beating, And did you come
to the door?
Speaker 7 (42:03):
Ah?
Speaker 3 (42:03):
Well, I was approaching the door and then she started screaming,
and I knew.
Speaker 6 (42:06):
Who was Okay, So that's it. I'm how to open
the story, okay.
Speaker 3 (42:09):
And because I figured if she came in, she would
be just absolutely you.
Speaker 6 (42:12):
Know, powered into the ground, alright.
Speaker 11 (42:15):
And then when it became silent that first after that
first round of a beating on your door, what where
did what did you? Where were you at then? Did
you go over?
Speaker 10 (42:25):
Just went to wash my hands, honestly, Okay, yeah, because
I didn't know who was at the door, and I'm
waiting to know, and then I was in okay, so
I didnt went back and wash my hands, okay.
Speaker 11 (42:34):
So that's the t during the time where it was
kind of quiet, and thought that maybe she went away, okay,
And when the banging and the yelling started again, Uh,
what where were you at?
Speaker 6 (42:45):
Then? I think I was in the kitchen okay, alright,
And then what happened?
Speaker 10 (42:50):
And then she just kept banging and yelling, like you
need to leave your trespassing, get off my porch, and
I'll get out of here.
Speaker 3 (42:56):
You know I'm not talking to you.
Speaker 6 (42:58):
Leave Okay. Who else was outside the door besides Aziel?
You don't know.
Speaker 2 (43:03):
What Susan described was completely disproven. The worst part is
that she fired a gun at her front door without
knowing who was on the other side. She heard Aj yelling,
but had no way of knowing if anyone else was there. Sadly,
one of AJ's sons was at the front door with her,
though he fortunately wasn't hurt. But what if it had
(43:24):
been someone else?
Speaker 9 (43:26):
What if and I was thinking about this earlier, what
if the police officer had already arrived and she is
loud and she's still yelling, and now the officer standing
in front of the door, and he does some knocks,
but she's still on that door patio, yelling, and you're shooting.
You can't see, there's no people, there's no window, there's nothing, and.
Speaker 8 (43:44):
Then you shoot. And what if the darn officer.
Speaker 4 (43:47):
Was on the other side of the door, You see
what I mean?
Speaker 9 (43:49):
And obviously she's still runs, she still run in her mouth,
she's still going, but you don't know what's.
Speaker 8 (43:53):
On the other side of that door.
Speaker 3 (43:54):
He would have introduced him.
Speaker 9 (43:55):
I sure hope, so, I mean, and that's what some
of the issues are that I can't I can't get there,
and I don't understand entirely what.
Speaker 8 (44:04):
Was going on in your mind.
Speaker 9 (44:07):
And I don't I don't see how that is entire
Were you on alcohol or anything like?
Speaker 8 (44:12):
I gotta ask these questions.
Speaker 4 (44:12):
Were there anything in your mind that would impair.
Speaker 8 (44:15):
Yourself in your judgments?
Speaker 3 (44:16):
I took delty earlier.
Speaker 6 (44:18):
In that day. What is what is that?
Speaker 3 (44:20):
It was from my back?
Speaker 8 (44:22):
Okay? Is that a narcotic?
Speaker 4 (44:23):
I'm not a muscle relax I'm guessing.
Speaker 3 (44:26):
Here it's a pain reliever.
Speaker 8 (44:28):
Okay, that's a pain reliever.
Speaker 2 (44:31):
What if the officer had just stepped up to the door.
She had called nine one one. She was expecting someone
to arrive. What if a different neighbor had been there.
What if someone else had come out and was going
to try to calm down aj. The entire situation is
just so irresponsible on Susan's part, And at the end
(44:52):
of the day, Susan's thoughts were only about Susan.
Speaker 11 (44:56):
You said, let me ask you this. You said that
you went on Facebook today. I can only imagine that
at some point you may have seen some of the news.
Speaker 6 (45:05):
Dealing with this case. In this story, Yes, okay, what
kind of stuff did you say?
Speaker 10 (45:09):
I threw a tablet at the child, I said all
kinds of things.
Speaker 3 (45:13):
That I never said.
Speaker 6 (45:15):
You know what I saw. I saw four kids that
no longer have a mother.
Speaker 11 (45:21):
And I'm not taking away how you were treated, But
those are her children, nonetheless, right, and now they don't
have a mother to go home to.
Speaker 2 (45:35):
When Susan saw the news, all she cared about was
what people had said about her. No sympathy for the
person she had murdered, the person she supposedly was not
trying to kill when she fired a shot directly at her.
No sympathy for the children who no longer had a mother,
just concern for what people were saying about her. This
(45:56):
is the type of person who would definitely hurt or
kill someone, and again if they were not punished for
this crime. She had no sense of responsibility and still
only thought about the entire situation with her own victimhood
in mind. When the detectives were finished interviewing her, they
told her that she was being charged with manslaughter and
this was her final selfish act.
Speaker 6 (46:19):
All right, I'm gonna have you go with this deputy here.
Speaker 3 (46:23):
No, I'm sorry, no, no, what I can't what's wrong?
Speaker 6 (46:27):
What's going on?
Speaker 3 (46:28):
Just can't I'm sorry, I can't do me.
Speaker 11 (46:34):
I mean, we're unfortunately, we're to that point where that's
what's gonna happen.
Speaker 6 (46:41):
Obviously, this isn't a conviction.
Speaker 11 (46:44):
This is you being charged and then you're gonna have
your band court to present your side of the story. Okay,
so you're gonna go with this deputy. You're gonna be
booked in no, no, and fingerprinted. They're gonna take your
pictures and then you will have uh enter ring in
the morning.
Speaker 3 (47:07):
I'm not gonna go.
Speaker 8 (47:07):
Sorry, there's a phone down there.
Speaker 4 (47:10):
You'll be able to call whoever you need to call,
and right there booking.
Speaker 3 (47:13):
I'm not going, but.
Speaker 4 (47:16):
Susan, you we are.
Speaker 8 (47:17):
We are going.
Speaker 9 (47:19):
There's no change in that now you're you're under arrest.
In fact, we probably go ahead and put a handcuffs
on it. Let's get Susan, get your no cuffed. Stand up, Susan,
stand up, Susan.
Speaker 4 (47:32):
You can go one of two ways, and go an
easy way, or can go a really hard way.
Speaker 3 (47:35):
I'm sorry.
Speaker 8 (47:36):
We don't want to go the hard way. I'm so sorry, Susan.
Put yourself in our position. We there's no choice in this.
Speaker 6 (47:40):
You're going.
Speaker 8 (47:41):
You're going over there.
Speaker 3 (47:42):
It's sorry, I.
Speaker 6 (47:43):
Can't do this, Susan.
Speaker 11 (47:45):
You understand that from from the point of the story
that you've given us that by refusing and and resisting
that it's it's making making you look bad.
Speaker 6 (47:57):
Okay, and I understand your reluctance. Don't want to go.
Speaker 3 (48:00):
I just can't take.
Speaker 6 (48:00):
Okay, Well, they have medical staff over there in the front.
Speaker 11 (48:04):
Can you give them the prescription medications that you're taking
all of that.
Speaker 6 (48:08):
They will assist you and making sure that you get
the care you need. But we're going over there. Okay,
You're going to go over there, and I just can't
do this. Okay. Well, come on, Susan, stand up.
Speaker 3 (48:19):
I can't do this.
Speaker 11 (48:20):
Okay, But do you understand when you're under arrest and
you're gonna be taken to the jail one way or another.
Speaker 6 (48:25):
Okay, I don't care, Susan, I just can't do this.
Speaker 3 (48:28):
I'm sorry.
Speaker 2 (48:30):
She was so entitled that she thought she would get
away with killing her neighbor that she tried to refuse
being taken to jail like a spoiled child that had
never learned to take responsibility for her actions. She is
truly an awful person. AJ's family and supporters criticized the
decision to pursue manslaughter instead of second degree murder charges.
(48:53):
State Attorney William Gladson explain they just needed evidence of hatred, spite,
ill will, or evil intense towards the victim to charge
second degree murder, but the investigation couldn't prove that. He
acknowledged the community wanted harsher charges, but said his obligationist
state attorneys to follow the law. The metal door that
(49:14):
separated both women became the prosecution's strongest evidence. He stressed
that aj Owens couldn't pose an immediate threat. While standing
outside Susan lawrence secured home, he said, quote, it's not
a crime to bang on somebody's door. It's not a
crime to yell. It was also revealed that Susan had
(49:34):
looked up information about stand your ground laws right before
the shooting, adding credibility to the idea that the shooting
was pre planned. She actually used the term reasonable and
prudent multiple times while being interviewed by detectives, which is
the exact wording used in information about stand your ground
laws that triggered investigators to look into her search history.
(50:00):
Us And Lawrence was found guilty of manslaughter and sentenced
to twenty five years in prison. Ajaca Owen's family and
their attorneys started the Standing in the Gap Fund right
after AJ's death. Their main goal was to make sure
her children would have proper education, housing, and psychological support.
The community showed strong support quickly, and hundreds of people
(50:22):
donated money in the first month. There is a lot
of discourse about self defense and guns in the United States.
It's argued that having more people be armed will make
the community safer, but incidents like this seem to prove otherwise.
Too many people get shot for completely benign actions like
knocking on the wrong door. But even encountering someone who's
(50:45):
angry shouldn't mean firearms are immediately the answer. People get angry,
it doesn't mean they're a threat. Then you take into
consideration that different people reacted differently to different situations. There
was a question of racial motivation in this case. Would
Susan have perceived her life was in danger if a
white person was pounding on her door. It seems unlikely. Obviously,
(51:10):
it takes a monster to think an unarmed black woman
is such a threat she deserves to be shot within
twenty seconds. But there will be no end to people
dying at the hands of guns as long as they
are readily available to anybody who wants one. If you're
the victim of domestic abuse, please reach out to someone
for help. Please talk to your local shelter, call the
(51:31):
National Domestic Abuse Hotline at one eight hundred seven nine
nine safe that's one eight hundred seven ninety nine seven
two three three, or you can go to the hotline
dot org to chat with someone online. If you're having
feelings of harming yourself or someone else, or even just
need someone to talk to. Please contact your local mental
health facility call nine one one, or call the National
(51:53):
Suicide Prevention Hotline by simply dialing nine eight eight in
the United States, they're available twenty four hours a day,
seven days a week, and we'll talk to you about
any mental health issue you might be facing. If you're
a member of the LGBTQ plus community and suffering from discrimination, depression,
or are in need of any support, please contact the
lgbt National Hotline at one eight eight eight eight four
(52:16):
three four five six four, or go to LGBT hootline
dot org. Thanks so much for letting me tell you
this story. If you're a fan of true crime, you
can subscribe to this show so you don't miss an episode.
My other show, Somewhere Sinister is no longer getting new episodes,
but you can check it out if you like interesting
stories from history that aren't necessarily true crime, but true
(52:37):
crime adjacent. It's available anywhere that you listen to podcasts.
You can also check out my personal vlog, Giles with
a Jay, which is sporadically updated with stuff about my
personal life, travel and music. It's available on YouTube. If
you'd like to support the show, check out our merchandise
at thisismonsters dot com. A link is in the description.
(52:58):
Thanks again and be safe so
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
CrimeLess: Hillbilly Heist
It’s 1996 in rural North Carolina, and an oddball crew makes history when they pull off America’s third largest cash heist. But it’s all downhill from there. Join host Johnny Knoxville as he unspools a wild and woolly tale about a group of regular ‘ol folks who risked it all for a chance at a better life. CrimeLess: Hillbilly Heist answers the question: what would you do with 17.3 million dollars? The answer includes diamond rings, mansions, velvet Elvis paintings, plus a run for the border, murder-for-hire-plots, and FBI busts.