The Doctor of Death : Debora Green

Season 22 : Family Annihilators Part 2 

Debora Green was a doctor, but despite taking a vow to do no harm, she tried to poison her husband to death. When that didn't work, she set her house on fire, with her children inside.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Divorce is never a pleasant experience, especially when children are involved.
When Mike Ferrar and Deborah Green separated, the divorce process
was not entirely smooth. Deborah did not want her husband
to leave her, and Mike was no longer able to
feel safe in his own home. He recognized the dangers
to himself due to his wife's erratic behavior, but he

(00:23):
was able to rest assured that she was a good
mother who had never hurt her children. When her alcohol
consumption began, putting that thought into doubt, he told her
he was going to see custody of the kids. What
he thought he was doing to ensure their safety would
put them in immediate danger. This is monsters. Deborah Jones

(01:10):
was born on February twenty eighth, nineteen fifty one, in Havana, Illinois.
The younger of two daughters. Deborah was said to have
been intellectually gifted and learned to read much younger than
was common. She took both piano and violin lessons as
a child and continued playing piano into her college years.
The family moved to Peorio when Deborah was in high school,

(01:32):
and the young woman finished out school with high grades.
The principal of the school would later remember as having
followed all the rules and she didn't do drugs or drink.
She was a cheerleader, served on the student council, and
was a National Merit scholar. Once graduated, she enrolled at
the University of Illinois with the goal of becoming a

(01:53):
chemical engineer. She was told at the time there was
an abundance of engineers and that she should pick up
back up major just in case. She chose pre med
chemistry and completed the work in only three years. While
attending the University of Illinois, she met an engineering student
named Dwayne Green, and the two dated through the remainder

(02:14):
of the time Deborah was at school there. After she
completed her undergraduate studies, she was accepted to both the
University of Illinois and the University of Kansas's medical schools,
and she chose Kansas. The University of Kansas is in Lawrence,
which is about forty minutes west of Kansas City, but
the medical school was in Kansas City, just west of

(02:36):
the border with Missouri. By then, her father had been
promoted at work and her parents were living in Kansas City,
which was what helped her make the decision. Deborah went
to medical school, but she never really wanted to be
a doctor. Her passion was engineering, but after getting the
advice to pick a backup major, she just veered off
on the path of medicine and was successful at it.

(02:59):
She was well liked by her classmates and people would
later say that she was easy to get along with.
While in Kansas City, she and Dwayne married in a
small ceremony where Debora's parents and her sister Pam were
the only attendees. Dwayne moved to Kansas City and the
couple lived in an apartment while Deborah completed medical school.

(03:20):
She made that happen in only three years and then
started an internship at the er At Truman Medical Center
in Kansas City, Missouri. In case you weren't familiar with
this part of the United States, they are two cities
named Kansas City. One is understandably in the state of Kansas,
right on the border with the state of Missouri, which
neighbors the Kansas City in that state, and they're not

(03:43):
one big city. They are two different cities. Ironically, Kansas
City in Missouri is the larger of the two cities,
and more often what is referred to when someone mentions
Kansas City as a major metropolitan area. After Deborah graduated
from medical school, they moved into a house in Independence, Missouri,
which made her commute to the hospital easier. While working

(04:07):
in the er, she liked that the environment was always busy,
but she eventually found that the majority of emergencies were
conditions that should have been treated by a doctor early on,
but the patient waited until it was too severe. She
would say that she got bored and would eventually transfer
to a different department, but stayed in the er for
many years. Deborah and Duane's relationship did last. Deborah would

(04:32):
later say that she didn't know why they married and
they had no common interests. They separated in the late seventies,
and Deborah didn't hesitate to fully embrace her newfound freedom.
She had been either in school or married for most
of her life, and now that she was in her
mid twenties, single with a good paying job and money
to spend, she took advantage of it. She was a

(04:54):
senior resident in the er at Truman Medical who regularly
worked extra shifts to add to work already hefty income.
She would go on trips with friends to Central America,
and she bought herself a brand new Jaguar XK E.
Though she clearly enjoyed the freedom, she still longed to
be in a relationship and to settle down. That's when

(05:15):
she met Michael Ferrar, who was a medical student in
his senior year at the University of Kansas Medical Center.
He had an emergency room rotation that year, which is
where he met Deborah. He was also a gifted student
who got straight a's, but he would later say that
he had to work very hard for those grades, where
Deborah didn't. When they started dating, Deborah was still legally

(05:37):
married to Dwayne, but when Michael found out, she promised
they would finalize their divorce soon. That happened in December
of nineteen seventy eight and was completely amicable. They both
used the same lawyer to just get the divorce done
as efficiently as possible. Mike said he met Dwayne once
and thought he was a really nice guy. Mike and

(05:58):
Deborah got married on May twin six to nineteen seventy nine,
in a far bigger ceremony than her first marriage. They
spent two weeks in Tahiti for their honeymoon, which was
all paid for by Deborah. By then, Mike had started
working as an intern, but his salary was nothing in
comparison to what his new wife was making. It's been

(06:19):
reported that she was bringing in seventy thousand dollars in
nineteen seventy eight, which would be about three hundred and
fifty thousand dollars today. It's not clear if that was
before or after the overtime she regularly put in. Mike
would later say he knew he had made a mistake
even during the wedding ceremony. By then, he had seen
how volatile Deborah could be when she didn't get her way.

(06:42):
She wasn't a spoiled child, but due to her quick
success in the medical field, she didn't have to want
for anything she could afford to purchase anything she wanted,
or do anything that made her unable to handle a
situation that didn't go in her favor. Once, when a
couple took a parking spot that she was headed towards,
she got out of the car and followed them all

(07:03):
the way to the store, berating them. Mike also said
that Deborah didn't like his family and made no effort
to have a decent relationship with them. She also didn't
take his name, remaining with her ex husband's last name,
which she said was for professional reasons. She didn't seem
to be interested in being intimate with him. Even on
their honeymoon. She seemed to prefer a good book to

(07:26):
the company of her husband. It seemed as though Deborah
wanted the stability of a married life but didn't really
want a partnership, and she didn't even pretend that that's
how she wanted their relationship. Mike pushed through the immediate
disappointment of the marriage and tried to make the best
of their life together. He did his residency at the
University of Cincinnati Medical Center and then did a three

(07:49):
year fellowship in cardiology. Deborah moved with him and went
into private practice in the emergency department of Jewish Hospital,
but she was not well liked by other dys She
was an excellent doctor, but when she referred a patient
to a specialist, if that doctor disagreed with her, she
would explode. Instead of discussing the patient's condition diplomatically, she

(08:12):
would insist the other doctors treat the patient however she
saw fit, and she wasn't any better with the patients
those who came in after having let simple problems turn
into bigger problems were often met with confrontation. She eventually
decided that emergency medicine was not for her, and she
transferred to internal medicine, which meant she needed to go

(08:33):
through residency in that field. It wasn't like starting over
completely in a new line of work, but it was
a bit of a step back. She had been out
of internal medicine for long enough that she had to
do years of training as a senior resident. While that
was happening, Mike was on his way to becoming a
successful cardiologist. That shift in the balance of power was

(08:55):
likely a serious problem for Deborah's ego, but the couple
continued on their paths. Though she didn't show it, it
seemed to be causing Deborah enough stress that she began
self medicating. Mike would later say that around that time
he started finding bottles of sedatives around the house, Vallium
or Perkadan bottles with the names of Patience on them.

(09:18):
He said it wasn't often, but it was happening. He
would question his wife and she would shrug it off,
claiming she had put the bottle in her pocket and
forgotten about it. He gave his wife the benefit of
the doubt, but soon she was complaining about having horrible
headaches in the back of her head that was an
unusual place for a headache to be felt, so she
went to a neurologist who diagnosed her with Sarah Beller migrains.

(09:43):
She received medication and it seemed to help at first.
Mike would say that initially he believed that Deborah had
taken the sedatives due to the headaches, but she had
undergone an operation on her wrist that regularly caused pain,
and that she had trouble sleeping, which he later believed
was what the mat medications he found around the house
were four. Deborah became pregnant with their first child in

(10:06):
nineteen eighty one. Both her and Mike were very happy
about having a child, and Deborah believed that their child
would end up intelligent and good looking due to the
genes from both herself and Mike. Timothy Ferrar was born
on January twentieth, nineteen eighty two, and even though he
was unplanned, he was a welcome addition to the family,
and the parents planned to have another child within the

(10:27):
next few years. Deborah took six weeks of maternity leave
before hiring a nanny and returning to her residency. She
was eventually awarded a fellowship and hematology and oncology. Just
like they had planned. Deborah gave birth to their second child,
a daughter named Kate Ferrar, on December twenty seventh, nineteen

(10:48):
eighty four. Like before, Deborah took a short maternal leave
before returning to her fellowship. She completed her fellowship before
Mike had completed his, and though she was able to
pass the board certification for internal medicine, she failed the
certification test for oncology twice. She also failed the test

(11:08):
for hematology. It was something that was unusual for someone
as smart as Deborah, who regularly did well academically with
little effort. Mike would later say that even though she
was extremely smart, he never saw her study for those tests.
They were difficult even for the smartest among the field,
and it seemed like she didn't really care about learning

(11:29):
more than she had to. Technically, she would still be
able to practice medicine in the fields of hematology and oncology,
she just wouldn't be listed as board certified for either
of them. Sure, a doctor in any specialty has to
be trained in that field of medicine, But to be
bored certified means you're dedicated to that field and have

(11:50):
advanced knowledge and ongoing education above and beyond what is
minimally required to be licensed in that field. If you
want the best care in any medical specialty, finding a
doctor that is board certified is really the best option. Still,
Deborah opened her own private practice and hematology and oncology.

(12:12):
It was a strange choice for Deborah. Oncology requires a
great deal of human interaction, comforting patients who are regularly
receiving bad news. Every single person who knew Deborah would
tell you that she was not the right person for
that job. She was always a very scientific and clinical
person who did not have a decent bedside manner. During

(12:35):
her years in the er, she had a hard time
dealing with patients. She had no tolerance for people she
viewed as stupid. Someone would come into the er for
something that either didn't need an er or should have
been handled by a doctor much sooner, and she would
treat the patient like an idiot. And I get it.
I often get annoyed by the actions of people doing

(12:55):
stupid things, but I'm not a doctor. I've effectively got
myself to a place where I come in contact with
very few people in my professional life. In life, you
got to play to your strengths, but also take into
account your weaknesses. Deborah seemed to be under the impression
that she was becoming an oncologist because she loved people,

(13:16):
but that would quickly prove to be untrue. One patient
commented that Deborah was cold and unfeeling. Another said she
was quote the strangest doctor I've ever worked with in
my life. Fortunately, her time with an oncology practice was
short lived, and after Mike completed his fellowship, he was
offered a position back in Kansas City, so the family

(13:38):
packed up and moved back to that area. Back in
Kansas City, Missouri, the family moved into a nice house
near the Kansas City Country Club. Mike excelled at the
practice he had joined, but after a year, Deborah was
disappointed to learn that her employer was not going to
offer her a partnership, something that was almost unheard of.

(13:59):
Mike believed it was likely due to her negative interactions
with patients, but he also soon learned that Deborah had
started walking with a limp slurred her speech, and her
handwriting was becoming illegible. I know that shouldn't be uncommon
for a doctor, but Mike said her handwriting was actually
pretty nice before then, he searched the house and found

(14:19):
a drawer full of prescription sedatives, realizing that that was
the reason Deborah was not offered a partnership from her employer.
Mike confronted his wife and she claimed she was having
pain and a knee she had previously had surgery on.
He said he didn't believe her. He said there were
too many narcotics prescribed to too many different patients for

(14:40):
it to simply be for pain relief. He told her
she was addicted and it had to stop. She agreed
and he believed her, and for a while, he said,
things did get better. She wasn't showing signs of impairment,
and she finally opened her own practice by herself. She
had a bookkeeper who handled her billing, and she took
on pain at a local hospital that was said to

(15:02):
not be very busy. She didn't have anyone to second
guess her, and she was able to work without much conflict.
But it wasn't even a year before the hospital closed down.
Around that time, Deborah learned that she was pregnant, and
unlike her other two children, this one was not wanted
by her. She assumed they would stop with two kids,
and this pregnancy threw a wrench into whatever plan she

(15:25):
may have had for after the hospital closed. Maybe she
could have found a different hospital to work out of,
or she could have opened an office. Either way, she
wouldn't be doing that with a new baby on the way,
and Deborah resented not only her unborn child, but Mike
forgetting her pregnant. Kelly Ferrar was born on December thirteenth,
nineteen eighty eight, and Mike would go on to say

(15:47):
that he believed she was the smartest of their three children. Fortunately,
it seemed that Deborah's resentment faded as she treated their
new edition the same as her other children. Deborah tried
to work for a different hospital, but had personality differences
with the staff. She accepted a number of other jobs
in medical related fields, but they never lasted. The older

(16:10):
children were in school and Kelly was only four years
old when Deborah gave up on working outside of the house.
She did do some freelance work with peer reviews and
medicaid processing, but for the most part, she was a
stay at home mother. The people around her said she
was an exceptional mother. She went above and beyond for
anything her children wanted, but her relationship with Mike was

(16:32):
not the same. She would fly off the handle at
any little thing, and trying to reason with her only
made it worse. Mike ended up spending more time working
because it kept him away from his volatile life. By
nineteen ninety four, Mike believed that everyone would be happier
if he left the family. When he first told Deborah

(16:52):
in January of that year, she acted surprised and started
treating him better for a few weeks, but Mike didn't
trust her motive. When he told her that he was
moving out. After those few weeks, Deborah's disposition immediately changed back.
She started screaming a mic and then started throwing anything
that was near her. Mike ended up moving into an

(17:13):
apartment in the area, but the separation didn't last long.
Mike had spent their twelve year marriage convinced that he
would make it work without divorce. He tried very hard
to make it work and felt defeated by the decision
to divorce, so when Deborah stated that she wanted to
put in the effort to save their marriage. Mike was happy.
They agreed that they needed a bigger house and that

(17:36):
Deborah needed to put in more effort to tidy up.
They had always had a weekly housekeeper, but between those visits,
Deborah made no effort to keep the house clean, even
when she was no longer working. The couple started looking
at bigger houses, and Mike would later say he got
swept up in the excitement and forgot why he had
left in the first place. They were about to buy

(17:57):
a very large house with a den, fitness room, and pool.
When he backed out, he realized that the expense would
likely be too much and there was no guarantee that
their marriage would be any better. After the disappointment of
backing out of the new home purchase, the family was
suddenly pushed back together by an unexpected tragedy. Mike was

(18:17):
called at work and told by a neighbor that his
house was on fire. The neighbor said he didn't think
anyone was home, but he couldn't be certain. Mike rushed
home and was met by seven fire trucks working hard
to put out the blaze. Not long after he arrived,
he managed to get a hold of his wife, who
said Tim was at a soccer game and she and
the girls were in the car. Not only that, but

(18:40):
she had coincidentally chosen to take the dog with her
when they went out. Mike said, it's still hard for
him to believe the Deborah would set the fire, but yeah,
she totally set the fire. The fire investigator said that
the fire was caused by a very unusual electrical problem,
where an electrical cord had gotten wrapped around a copper
hut water pipe, resulting in the shielding melting and causing

(19:03):
a short which ignited some wooden paneling. The house had
been mostly destroyed, so Deborah and the kids moved into
Mike's apartment with them. Once the house was repaired, they
sold it and went ahead with the purchase of the
house they had been planning to buy before. They eventually
all moved into that house. That fire caused Mike to

(19:23):
rejoin his family, and though it was never proven, it's
nearly impossible to believe Deborah didn't set that fire. Like
any reconciliation, there was a period of time where the
promises that were made were faithfully kept. Deborah was more
involved in taking care of the house, and Mike did
his best to work fewer hours, but that lasted six
months tops After that, the house was a disaster, and

(19:46):
though Deborah was managing to hold in her violent tantrums,
holding them in didn't seem like a better option. How
bad would it be when she finally did blow It
was in June of nineteen ninety five, while Mike was
contemplating to again that the family went on a trip
to Peru that had been organized by the children's private school.
While on that trip, Mike met another woman named Margaret Hacker,

(20:10):
who was also married but unhappy in her relationship. Once
back from the trip, Mike and Margaret started having an affair.
In July, Mike told Deborah that he wanted a divorce,
and she blew up. It speculated that the biggest problem
Deborah had with a possible divorce was that it would
ruin their daughter's chances of becoming debutantes at the upcoming

(20:32):
bells of the American Royal. Mike had long believed that
the only reason Deborah stayed married to him was for
social standing. His happiness was not even close to being
as important as how high society viewed her, and the children.
Still Mike wanted a divorce, but for the meantime, Deborah
moved into the guest bedroom and the household continued on

(20:54):
in outside appearance only He was in August of nineteen
ninety six that Mike started getting repeatedly sick. He would
later say that the first time it happened, he had
come home from work and Deborah told him that the
family had all eaten, but she saved him a chicken
salad sandwich. He said there was a hint of a
funny taste to it, but it wasn't so strong that

(21:14):
he didn't finish the sandwich. He just assumed it might
have picked up the scent of something else in the refrigerator. Later,
they went out shopping and Mike started feeling tired. Back home,
he got nauseous and started vomiting. He was mildly nauseous
for the next few days, but managed to make it
through work. He continued improving for a few days, and

(21:35):
then the illness suddenly came back, only much worse. He
was vomiting constantly and had diarrhea in the morning. There
was no way he would be able to work, and
when he called his own doctor, they encouraged him to
admit himself to the hospital, which he did. Mike was
in the hospital for a week, and his condition worsened
until he was critical. He had a fever, his blood

(21:58):
pressure dropped in the doctor's disc covered he had sepsis.
Test showed that Mike had a bacterial infection of Streptococcus viridans,
but they were never able to determine how he had
contracted it. Once treated, Mike gradually recovered and went home,
where Deborah served him a big spaghetti dinner to celebrate.
You'll never guess what happened. A few hours later, Mike

(22:21):
was extremely ill and on his way back to the hospital.
In hindsight, it always seems so obvious that someone is
being poisoned, but at the time there are so many
other things happening that it clouds the picture, and most
people don't want to believe that their wife or their
colleague's wife is poisoning them. Overall, Mike was getting sick
every seven days, and that pattern might have thrown off

(22:43):
what doctors believed it could have been. The biggest surprise
when Mike got back to the hospital was that he
was still clear with Streptococcus Veridans, which was the most
likely cause of his illness. He would make sense that
it wasn't completely out of his system when he was
sent home, but it was, and now he was sick
with something completely different, though showing the same symptoms. Doctors

(23:06):
thought he might have picked up something in Peru and
put him on an aggressive course of antibiotics. As Mike's
health improved, he was sent home, but it wouldn't be
long before he was back. After eating a plate of ham,
beans and corn bread that was prepared by Deborah, Mike
became ill and was back in the hospital. While that

(23:27):
was going on, Margaret was dealing with her own marital problems.
She felt like her marriage was lost, and that was
partly due to her husband, who was suffering from severe depression.
When she finally sat down to discuss divorce, it seemed
like they would be able to split amicably. He found
a rental house nearby, but they had agreed that he

(23:47):
could take his time moving out. On September fifth, Margaret
woke up and found that her husband had already left
for work. He usually said goodbye to her and her sons,
but she shrugged it off and went about her regular routine.
When it was well past the time he should have
been home, she made some calls and found out that
he left the hospital hours earlier. She and a friend

(24:10):
drove out to the rental house, where they found her
husband dead. Despite being found in the garage, he had
not died of carbon monoxide poisoning. He had injected himself
with a lethal dose of fentanyl and died relatively quickly,
even though he had likely been dead for hours. Margaret,
her friend, and a neighbor of the rental house tried

(24:31):
CPR with no success. When Mike returned yet again from
the hospital, he had become concerned about Deborah's substance abuse.
She had never been a heavy drinker, but recently she
had been drinking to the point of passing out. He
was getting calls from his children while he was in
the hospital because they were concerned about her behavior. While

(24:53):
Deborah was out of the house and the kids were
at school, Mike started searching the house, assuming he would
find a stash of sedatives. Again. What he ended up
finding was even more shocking. In a tote bag belonging
to his wife, he found at least ten packets of seeds.
It was a surprise, because Deborah had never shown any

(25:13):
interest in gardening. The label said they were seeds for
castor beans, but Mike didn't immediately understand what that meant.
Many true crime fans will likely know this, but just
in case you missed it, castor beans are where you
get the extremely deadly toxin known as risin. Without that knowledge,
Mike would continue to be confused by the seeds. As

(25:35):
he continued digging through the bag, he found three empty
vials of potassium chloride, which could have easily killed him
if injected into his body while he slept. That hadn't happened,
so he assumed Deborah had injected them into the nutrient
bags for his recovery, which made them too diluted to
do any real harm. He then looked at the seed

(25:57):
packets again and noticed a warning that they were talk
sick and not to be consumed. All of the information
swirled around his head, and when he asked Deborah about
the seed she claimed she was going to plant them.
Mike called bullshit, and then she claimed she was going
to use them to kill herself. By then, her excessive
drinking and claims of wanting to die gave Mike the

(26:19):
ability to have Deborah involuntarily admitted to a nearby psychiatric facility.
While she was there being evaluated, Mike was happy to
take over child raising duties. He was still off of
work recovering from his mysterious illness, and he was able
to bond with his children at least a little bit. Unfortunately,

(26:40):
he knew that once Deborah was released, he would have
to move out of the house. It was for his
own safety, as by then he had come to accept
that his wife had been using the castor bean seeds
to poison him. As much as he didn't want to
believe it, it was no coincidence that he would get
better in the hospital and then suddenly get sick again
as soon as he got home, and everything he had

(27:02):
eaten right before he got sick was given to him
by Deborah and served to him separately from the rest
of the family. It had been too long since he
had been poisoned for the rice and to still be
in his system, but he was able to confirm with
the doctors who had treated him that rice in poisoning
would have fit his symptoms. Mike knew for sure that
he had to get away from Deborah by the end

(27:26):
of September, Mike had moved out of the family home
and both he and Deborah had met with lawyers about
a divorce. It seemed like Deborah was doing better after
having been released from the psychiatric facility. She had been
diagnosed with major depression and given medication. The doctor made
it very clear that she could not drink alcohol with
the medication, and Deborah agreed that she wouldn't. Mike believed

(27:50):
that his children were safe with her, because despite her
violent outbursts towards him, she had never been anything but
a loving mother to the children. Truly believe that he
and Deborah could separate and it would be a healthier
environment for the children, and with her mental health issues
being taken care of, they could all move on and
have better lives. Mike was finally strong enough to go

(28:14):
back to work in the middle of October. He was
not working full time, but he was working his way
up to that and hoped to be there sometime in November.
By then, he also hoped to be divorced from Deborah
and able to watch his kids grow up into productive adults.
Deborah was not about to let him have that happiness, though.

(28:35):
On October twenty fourth, nineteen ninety five, Mike received another
call from a neighbor informing him that his house was
on fire. By the time he got up and made
it to the scene, the fire department was there working
to put out the fire. Nine one one had received
a call at twelve twenty one am, where all that
could be heard was heavy breathing. The nine to one

(28:56):
to one system identified the caller's address, and the dispatcher
sent out put troll cars, who found the house on
fire and called in the fire department. The first officer
on the scene was met by a woman and a
young girl who turned out to be Deborah and Kate.
They said two other children were still in the house,
and the officer did everything he could to make entry,
but the fire was too advanced. When firefighters were on

(29:19):
the scene, they also attempted to enter the house to
search for bodies, but weren't able to find any. The
fire was extinguished in about an hour, but it would
take several more for everything to cool down enough for
firefighters to enter. In the meantime, Mike, Deborah, and Kate
were taken to the police station. Nobody was under arrest.

(29:40):
It was too soon to have a cause for the fire,
but investigators wanted to get as much information as they
could about the situation. Deborah explained that everyone had gone
to bed that evening, but she was woken up by
the alarm system. She said the alarm had gone off before,
mostly because the dogs had set off the motion sensors,
but this time it was that's a sound she had

(30:00):
never heard before. When she opened her bedroom door, the
hall was filled with smoke, so she used an exterior
door that went out onto the deck to leave the
house and ask her neighbors to call nine one one.
She said that when she was walking by the pool,
she heard Tim on the inner com. She explained who
Tim was to the detective, saying, quote, Tim used to

(30:22):
be my thirteen year old. The detectives noted the odd
phrasing over the inner com. Tim asked what to do,
and Deborah told him to wait where he was and
the fire department would rescue him. When he asked if
he should try to help the girls, she told him no.
She then told the detectives quote, I'm sure that was

(30:43):
the kiss of death. After asking the neighbor to call
nine one one, she said she saw Kate on the
garage roof, and she got her to jump from there
to the ground. She said that somebody must have already
called nine one one, because it was only a few
minutes after she alerted her neighbor the police officers arrived
on the scene. When Deborah was asked about the events

(31:05):
of the previous day, she explained that she had picked
up the kids from school. She said they all went
to Pembroke Hill Private School, and then added at least
the living ones due they had various commitments in the evening.
Deborah had a psychiatrist's appointment, Kate had ballet, and Tim
had a soccer game. She dropped Kate off on her

(31:27):
way to her appointment, and Mike picked up Tim and
Kelly and went to Tim's soccer game. They were all
home by about nine pm, where they Ate, Kentucky fried
chicken and went to bed. She said the evening was
fairly uneventful. When asked about her marriage, she explained that
they were in the process of getting a divorce. She
told the detectives things like that Mike had never been

(31:49):
in the children's lives and that she had stopped practicing
medicine because Mike had coerced her to She claimed that
all three of their kids hated their father. She told
the investigators that she wasn't mad about the divorce, but
was actually relieved. She did mention that she had talked
to Mike on the phone late the evening before the fire,

(32:11):
but only mentioned they discussed information about his divorce lawyer.
She claimed he had called her and that the call
was quick. That wasn't entirely true, and what she omitted
about the call would be fairly significant. Investigators noted that
their entire interview with Deborah was all about her, how
everything affected her and her plans. She also never asked

(32:35):
about the status of Tim or Kelly or where Kate
was during the first few hours she was there. When
she finally did, she became enraged when she found out
the bodies were still in the house. She screamed at
the detectives that she wanted to be taken to the
house to see her children, and got even more upset
when she was told she couldn't be in an active
crime scene. When the detectives interviewed Mike, he contradicted everything

(33:00):
that Deborah had said. He told them about her drinking
the castor seeds he had found in her bag, and
how they perfectly matched the symptoms from his illness. He
told the detectives about the fire at their previous house
only eighteen months prior, and how it had happened right
after Mike backed out of the new house purchase. He
felt it wasn't a coincidence that another house fire happened

(33:21):
immediately after Mike had given Deborah bad news. That's when
he told the investigators about that phone call just hours
before the fire, the one where Deborah had claimed Mike
called her and they only had a brief conversation about
his lawyer. It was true that Mike called her, but
only because she had paged him. He explained that he

(33:42):
had taken Tim and Kelly to Tim's soccer game, where
they all had a great time. Tim had played a
great game and they had all talked about it on
the drive home. There was no indication that his children
hated him, like Deborah claimed. After dropping the kids off
at home, he went to Margaret's house and had dinner
with her and her sons. Afterward, they all watched a

(34:04):
football game on the television, and at ten thirty five pm,
he received a page. The number on the pager was
Deborah's house, so he called, but she said she didn't
page m She claimed the children were asleep and it
wasn't her, so he hung up and shrugged it off.
He knew there had been other times where she called
his apartment and hung up, likely checking on his whereabouts.

(34:26):
She paged him five minutes later, and when he called,
that's when she talked to him about his lawyer. He
wasn't long before Mike headed home, and on his way
he got another page from Deborah. He waited until he
got home to call her, which was at around eleven
forty pm. He could tell she had been drinking. She
sounded perfectly normal the first time he talked to her.

(34:48):
She was slurring just a little bit during the second call,
and this time she was clearly drunk. It set Mike off.
She was seeing a psychiatrist about this very behavior, and
she was put in the kids in danger. Then he
told the detectives that he had remembered at that moment
that he had almost died from her deliberately poisoning him,
and he yelled at her that she was crazy, that

(35:10):
he knew she had poisoned him, and then he told
her he was going to fight to take the kids
away from her. That was likely the final punch that
threw Deborah over the edge. After the call, he sat
in his apartment looking through his mail when his phone
rang only a few minutes later. When he answered, it
was Deborah, and she told him she didn't realize he

(35:31):
was home. She only wanted to leave a message on
his machine, but didn't want to talk to him, so
she hung up. It was about thirty minutes later that
the phone rang again. Mike wasn't asleep and he assumed
it was Deborah, but when he answered, it was a
neighbor telling him the house was on fire. Mike's parents
had been called and they were with Kate in the

(35:52):
aftermath of the fire. The police also interviewed her, and
she said that she was woken up by smoke and
when she opened her her bedroom door, she yelled out
for Tim, then closed the door and dialed nine one one,
but didn't say anything before hanging up. Then she climbed
out of her window and onto the garage roof. When
her mother saw her, she told her to jump and

(36:14):
that she would catch her. When she finally did jump,
Deborah completely missed her, but Kate was not injured in
the fall. She told investigators that she was surprised Tim
had not escaped his room the same way. She was
unaware that her mother had told Tim to stay there.
Kate did say that the children were mad at their

(36:34):
father for leaving their mother, and seemed to base her
feelings for each parent solely on what Deborah had told
her over the years. She did admit that her mother
had been drinking in excess recently. Though Mike and Kay
were released first, they all went to Mike's apartment and
tried to distract themselves from the horror of what they
had just been through. A few hours later, Deborah was

(36:58):
released and the police called Mike because she had nowhere
to go, her parents weren't close, having since moved away,
and she no longer had any friends in the area.
Mike agreed to let her be dropped off at his apartment,
but he didn't let her stay. He gave her three
hundred dollars in cash, the keys to his truck, and
let her use the phone to make calls. After she left,

(37:21):
Mike's parents took Kate to their house, and Mike immediately
went to his lawyer's office to file divorce papers. Asking
for full custody of Kate. Then he went to his
parents' house and slept. Deborah picked up a bottle of
booze and went to a motel room. She also met
with her lawyer, but in that case the lawyer went
to her. When she arrived at the motel, she found

(37:43):
Deborah lying on the bed, and she noticed some blood
on the sheets. She couldn't tell where the blood had
come from, and there were no obvious wounds. She called
for an ambulance to take her to Shawnee Mission Hospital,
where her lawyer's ex husband worked. The doctors never seemed
to identify where the blood had come from, but they
determined that she had a psychotic break and she was

(38:04):
admitted for observation. It was only two days after the
fire that the funerals for Tim and Kelly were held.
Deborah had been released from the hospital and her parents
and sister had driven into town from Texas. Employees at
the funeral home would later say that they had never
seen anyone act the way Deborah did at a funeral.

(38:25):
She yelled at the staff about multiple little details that
she thought they had done wrong. Mike had planned all
of the funeral arrangements, himself with no input from her,
but she still expected things to be arranged the way
she wanted. When her parents and sister stepped in to
stand up for the staff, Deborah began yelling at them,
telling them to quote shut the fuck up. The fire

(38:48):
investigators ruled the fire in arsin They methodically checked all
of the common sources of accidental fire furnace, water heater,
electrical panel and appliances, but they were all in perfect
It was on the main floor that investigators found poor patterns,
where an accelerant had been poured all over the first floor,

(39:08):
up the stairs, and all over the upstairs hall outside
of the children's bedrooms. They were not able to determine
what type of accelerant was used, but estimated that between
three and ten gallons or eleven to thirty eight leaders
were used throughout the house. The police took over the
investigation once it was determined to have been an arson homicide.

(39:29):
Both Mike and Debra's clothing were tested for cinge marks,
but both were clean when they tested hair samples from
each of them, though Deborah's hair showed significant sinjan and
that was despite her having gone out and had her
hair cut twice. In the few days since the fire
had happened. That was highly suspicious, as Deborah told investigators

(39:50):
that she had not been near any flames and only
saw smoke before exiting the house through the outside door
in the bedroom. He was assigned that Deborah likely set
the fire and her hair was singed when the accelerant
erupted into flames. Of course, Deborah claimed that a group
of people had run through her yard in the middle
of the night a few days before the fire, and

(40:11):
she suggested they had set her house on fire. It
was an unlikely scapegoat, and didn't explain how her hair
got singed. Deborah had been awake, and the many phone
calls between her and Mike showed that she was up
at the house and Mike was at his apartment. She
had just had an argument minutes before her home was
thoroughly doused with an accelerant and set on fire. It

(40:34):
was virtually impossible to believe that anybody else would have
been able to do that while she was awake at
home without her noticing. Then, after the fire had been set,
there was no clear way that someone else could have
gotten out of the house. She had clearly set the
fire and gone into her bedroom, which had its own exit.
At the same time, authorities were also investigating the poisoning

(40:57):
attempt on Mike and found a clear LinkedIn her purchase
of the castor bean seeds and Mike's near fatal illness.
Police arrested Deborah November twenty second, nineteen ninety five, and
charged her with two counts of first degree murder, two
counts of attempted first degree murder, and one count of
aggravated arsen At a pre trial show of cause hearing,

(41:18):
Deborah not only claimed she was innocent of the crimes,
she blamed them on her deceased son, Tim. Her defense
argued that Tim had set the fires that evening, and
part of their evidence was that Tim had a fascination
with fire. Oh well, that's certainly strange for a young boy. Right.
As if that wasn't enough, they also claimed that Tim

(41:39):
had been the one to poison Mike. They claimed that
he regularly prepared meals at home and had even prepared
the spaghetti that had sent Mike to the hospital the
second time, but the meal was given to Mike by Deborah,
who could have easily put the castor seeds in the
food before she delivered it. The seeds were also found
in her bag, with a receipt from where she had

(42:01):
purchased them. The clerk at the store testified that he
remembered Deborah putting in an order for the seeds because
they were out of season. Even if what the defense
was claiming was true, which it wasn't, the evidence showed
that she must have purchased the seeds for Tim, but
she didn't. She was a sad woman who was so
desperate to get away with her crimes that she was

(42:23):
willing to soil her deceased sons and name in court
by claiming he was a killer. The court ruled that
there was enough evidence to go to trial, and the
prosecutor announced that they would be seeking the death penalty.
Deborah's defense team hired a private investigator in the hopes
that they could disprove that the fire was oursen, but
they did the exact opposite. They confirmed that an accelerant

(42:47):
was used and also found that Deborah's bathrobe had been
found on the scene with singe marks indicating that it
had been worn while the fire was being set. When
faced with that evidence, Deborah admitted to lawyer to having
set the fire. But she claimed she had no memory
of actually doing it. She said she also didn't know why,

(43:08):
though she still maintained that Tim was the one who
had tried to poison Mike. She pleaded no contest to
all charges. That plea meant she knew that the evidence
showed that she had committed the crimes, but she was
not outright admitting to them. It seemed as though she
contemplated an insanity plea, but decided against it. She was

(43:28):
sentenced to forty years with no parole and is currently
still in prison at the Topeka Correctional Facility. Her release
data is set for twenty thirty five, when she will
be eighty four years old. After her conviction, Deborah went
back on her admission and claimed that her alcohol abuse
made her unable to set the fires. She said her

(43:49):
prozac had clouded her thinking when she made her plea,
but when she was off the drug, she realized she
had been led to confess while not thinking clearly. She
filed a request for any new trial in two thousand,
but when she was informed that the prosecutor would be
seeking the death penalty if she was awarded a new trial,
she withdrew her request. Something that seems odd if she

(44:10):
was so sure she was innocent. When the state of
Kansas abolished the death penalty in two thousand and four,
Deborah requested a new trial, again claiming manifest justice. That's
a term for when the outcome of a criminal case
is very clearly incorrect. But that wasn't the case for her.
The evidence clearly pointed to her, and when she found

(44:31):
out about it, she admitted guilt and took a plea deal.
The terms of that plea deal were to confirm that
she was not intoxicated at the time and was of
sound mind. In the end, her request was denied. Deborah
Green wanted to annihilate her family, just at different times.
She tried to poison her husband, which she fortunately failed

(44:53):
to do. Unfortunately, that failure led her to kill her children,
something she's never revealed a true motive. Like many family annihilators,
she was likely acting at a selfish hatred for her husband,
and as soon as he claimed he was going to
take her kids away, she chose to kill them instead
of letting that happen. A true sign that someone is

(45:14):
a monster is they believe death is a better option
than not getting their way. If you're the victim of
domestic abuse, please reach out to someone for help. Please
talk to your local shelter. Call the National Domestic Abuse
Hotline at one eight hundred seven nine nine safe that's
one eight hundred seven ninety nine seven two three three,

(45:35):
or you can go to the hotline dot org to
chat with someone online. If you're having feelings of harming
yourself or someone else, or even just need someone to
talk to, please contact your local mental health facility call
nine one one, or call the National Suicide Prevention Hotline
by simply dialing nine eight eight in the United States.
They're available twenty four hours a day, seven days a week,

(45:56):
and we'll talk to you about any mental health issue
you might be facing. If you're a member of the
LGBTQ plus community and suffering from discrimination, depression, or are
in need of any support, please contact the LGBT National
Hotline at one eight eight eight eight four three four
five six four, or go to LGBT Hotline dot org.

(46:17):
Thanks so much for letting me tell you this story.
If you're a fan of true crime, you can subscribe
to this show so you don't miss an episode. My
other show, Somewhere Sinister is no longer getting new episodes,
but you can check it out if you like interesting
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crime adjacent. It's available anywhere that you listen to podcasts.

(46:37):
You can also check out my personal vlog, Giles with
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Thanks again, and be safe