Saying Goodbye and Hello

The End of the Whittaker Era/The Gatwa Era Begins

We have a new Doctor!

Ncuti Gatwa was announced as the Fourteenth Doctor, starting in 2023 under returning showrunner Russell T. Davies. We're joined by Richard (@CleverDickFilms) to talk about what we can expect in the "RTD2" era. However, we don't forget that we still have a Doctor to say goodbye to. Fans have been teased by what awaits the final appearance of the Thirteen Doctor in the BBC centenary special. How will we leave Jodie Whittaker's Time Lord and her companions, Yaz and Dan? Where do we think Chris Chibnall will take us? Let us know what you're excited about for the remaining Whittaker era and the upcoming Gatwa era.

Note: This podcast was recorded before the news was released about David Tennant and Catherine Tate returning to Doctor Who next year, in some mysterious capacity, as the Doctor and Donna Noble.

Episode Transcript

(00:03):
Welcome to the note Polty. Anote to listeners. This podcast was recorded

(00:38):
just before the news came out thatDavid Tinnett and Catherine Tate would be reprising
their roles as the Doctor and DonnaNoble in twenty and twenty three. While
it remains to be seen what thatwill exactly look like, just know that
this discussion of the future of Whodoes not include that aspect analsy. Welcome

(00:59):
to Time in Space, a DoctorWho podcast. I'm Jessica Nunn and I'm
her husband and co host Philip Gelfhis. Well, this is our podcast that
we do just like they release DoctorWho episodes. You never know when,
I never know how, but wethought this is obviously a very special time,
even though it's May twenty twenty two, but still as you're talking about

(01:21):
the Queen's jubilie, that's the specialtime. But we're got news just a
few days a week ago about thefourteenth Doctor being officially cast and announced,
so we're going to talk about thatas well as talking about the end of
the Wittwaker era, and to talkabout all that, of course is our
friend of the show, Richard Richard. Welcome back, Thank you very much

(01:46):
back. I haven't. I mean, I think the last the last podcast
thing I did probably I think waswith you guys, So I've had an
extended break as well. So Jessica, would you think about the announcement that
Shooty got what is the Doctor?Yeah, I'm very intrigued. Obviously I

(02:08):
know him from Sex Education, butthat's all I know him from, and
then seeing him sort of do inperson things now obviously seems quite different from
his character on there, So it'llbe interesting. He's clearly an excellent actor
and I'm looking forward to seeing whathe can do with it. And then

(02:28):
I don't know, I don't knowabout you Richard in your Household, but
I know Jessica you've watched Sex Education, So I mean when can tells a
litt bit more about what you've seenfrom him in that series at least.
And it's a very broad character.It's got lots of layers and things like
that, but he's a very sortof flamboyant character. So yeah, it'll

(02:52):
be, like I say, it'llwe'll see what he brings to the show
and what he what he brings fromthat character, if anything, how much
of that is him and how muchof its character and all of that.
Do you watch sex Education Rigger?You know a very similar situation. My
wife Lisa has watched it all.When I'm up here potlin away on my

(03:14):
computer and writing and things like that, she tends to catch up and I'll
binge watch all the Netflix shows.So I was aware of the show,
but I hadn't sort of seen it. All I know is is that funny
enough? This just goes to showpeople expect me to always have the finger
on the pulse of doctor Who.But I was actually on route to Tesco's,

(03:34):
the supermarket, and it was yourmessage, Philip that told me,
so there's a new doctor And Iwas like, right, is there quickly?
I mean you must have said itwithin ten minutes or server coming out.
And I happened to be going dothe boring grocery shop, so I
opened up Twitter and saw and whenI got home after shopping, I came
upstairs and my wife was working asshe has want to do on a Sunday

(03:57):
afternoon, and I said, Oh, they've been at the new doctor Shooty
Gatwa and she was just incredibly excited. She was, Oh, he's going
to be absolutely amazing. He's sogood in sets education. So yeah,
and obviously I then went in andlooked him up, and I've taken the
point that you mentioned there, Jessica, as well as that when you see
him interviewed, he doesn't appear tobe an actor necessarily, who it's hard

(04:24):
to say, doesn't play themselves.He seems more more of a character actor.
So you know, as to whathe will be like as the Doctor,
I think it's hard to tell.Obviously with all actors, and certainly
with a role like the Doctor,where it's an extended period of time that
you're playing this character. I thinkinevitably actors have to put a bit of

(04:46):
themselves into into the character. Butas to what that will be, I
don't know. I think certainly heseems quite high energy. I think we're
going to end, certainly with RussellT. Davis as a previous work,
we're going to have quite a highenergy doctor. I think, probably quite
hopefully. I don't know. Hemight be less angsty maybe than the Tenth

(05:08):
Doctor. I think Russell T.Devis will probably feel that he's been there,
he's done that kind of thing,and certainly a lot of what he's
said that teasing comments that have comeout have been that he's doing. He's
taking into new territory for him asa writer, So I don't think it
will just be a reprisal perhaps ofthe same kind of themes and style of

(05:28):
the first Russell T. Davis era. So yeah, I'm very I'm very
optimistic. But the only thing,and this is I think it happens to
us all eventually, is that nowthe doctor for the first time is actually
younger than myself. It's come closea couple of times. I think Matt
Smith's only a couple of years olderthan me, say with Joey Whittaker,

(05:49):
but this is the first time wherehe's definitively younger than me. And the
first doctor who was born and wasa child during the the Revival era,
he would have been about he's twentynine now, so he would have on
my math's not very good, buthe would have been probably about ten years

(06:11):
old or something when Christopher Ciston wason. So he's he's a child now
of the Revival era. Never never, never mind the doctors we've had who
grew up with Tom Baker and PeterDavison, like Tenant and Cadi and all
that lot. Now we've got tosomeone who watched David Tenant when he was
a child potentially, So yeah,that makes me feel a little bit old.
But it also just goes to showand underline, which I think is

(06:33):
what partly what the centenary special andthe obviously the sixtieth anniversary special for Doctor
Who that will come along next year, we underline how long this show has
been around now. You know,you know, we're gonna have to stop
calling it that us old krusty fanswill have to stop calling it Knew Who.

(06:54):
But you know it's not it's notreally Knew Who anymore. You talk
about Christopher eccleston as being Knew Who, and you know, I think someone
posted a very sobering statement which wasthat the distance between Rose and now is
longer than the distance between like thevery first Doctor Who episode and Logopolis or

(07:16):
something like that. You know,there's an extended period now, and it
is going on now. I mean, I got used to these last couple
of years of time just spinning pastrapidly, and before you know, it's
two years a down and it's notreally that far away until it's the twenty
year anniversary of the return of DoctorWho with Christoph Ecleston, which makes me

(07:39):
feel a little bit old. Yeah. Well, and it's been interesting because
so many people have talked about,you know, oh, such a young
person to play the doctor, andI wonder if it's people like us who
win. Matt Smith, who wasyounger than Shooty at the time, he

(08:00):
was our age, so it wasn'tthat young. But now, shoot he's
so much younger than we are,and now we're like, oh, they're
recruiting babies to play doctor. ButI think it's worth remembering that he's not
the youngest doctor to ever been castas I mean, he's the same age
Peter Davison was when he was castas the doctor, and Matt Smith was

(08:22):
younger when he was cast. SoI think it all comes down to how
he's going to play because ironically,you know, both Davison and Matt Smith
both played the Doctor as slightly olderimpersonality, and I don't know if that
came out that was something that theywere particularly looking for to offset how people

(08:46):
might be uncomfortable with them being younger, or whether that sort of grew naturally
out of the character. So Ithink it will be interesting to see how
Shooty gat were kind of inhabits thatyou know, age old time lord.
I think Whittaker's kind of paved awayin that regard because her has very much

(09:09):
been sort of not being bogged downby the you know, the weary some
life of a time lord, becausethat was kind of done to death in
a way through Tenant and then particularlyin Capaldi's era, the idea of being
weary in some way, and soshe's been much more youthful and energetic in

(09:30):
that sense and not kind of angsty. So it'll be interesting to see if
they go for a bit of acontrast with that but the fourteenth thought,
or whether they maintain that. Ithink what's been really pleasing to see.
I'm not really you know, I'mon social media because of my channel everything,
but I'm very much an observer.I don't tend to get engaged in
debates. But one thing that wasparticularly noticeable, and despite the fact that

(09:54):
a few people were like, what'sthis just a Twitter announcement, you know,
but it did seem to make areal impact, like and the new
audience, the interest in the show. Just I mean, it's it's typical
roscity. He knows what to dotoo, is a master app you know,
picking up a new audience and gettingpeople talking, and you know,

(10:20):
apart from the usual bigots, whichfortunately have been quite small, or maybe
that's just because I ignore them allnow, everyone seems to have been really,
really excited, So you know,it's clearly a kind of a master
stroke of casting. But from whatthey've said, it seems a little bit
serendipitous to them as well, becauseapparently they auditioned many they already had someone

(10:43):
who auditioned that they were pretty surethat that was going to be who they
cast, and Shooting was the lastone. He came in and blew them
away so much they said, no, it's got to be him. So
I think it'll be interesting, youknow, dan the line to find out
who was that other doctor as well, and whether it was a woman,
perhaps because that was the one thingAt first I was sort of surprised because

(11:07):
I thought it almost certainly would havebeen another female doctor, and I was
a little bit disappointed because I'd liketo see how another female actress done it.
But I think the significance of thecasting of Shooty Gap were as well.
Kind of it doesn't because I wasworried that if they cast a man

(11:30):
that then all these sort of notmy doctor kind of people would go,
well, there you go, that'swhy it didn't work. It was a
failed experiment. Will never have afemale doctor again. And I don't want
those people to have any kind ofassumption that they were right, because they
clearly weren't. But I think thecasting of that actor has not really it's

(11:54):
not given those people an acknowledgement.In some way. It seems to have
sides to that, which is fortunate. Maybe that's because he's a he's a
person of color. Maybe it's becauseyou know, he's he's young. I
don't know, it's much. Youknow, it seems a lot younger than
any of the others, probably becausehe's known for playing I mean, I

(12:16):
haven't seen such case, but Iimagine they're all supposed to probably be in
their late teens. Six. Yeah, so people have got that idea that,
you know, it's he's much muchyounger than perhaps he is. He
certainly comes across as slightly more matureisn't the right word, but a little
bit more, perhaps wiser than thecharacter he plays in such action when I've

(12:39):
seen him an interview. So yes, absolutely, yeah, Now I'm excited
for it, though I think itwill be. I think it'll be really
really interesting to see Um and afew people, you know, who are
trying to come up with any excuseto sort of bombard things, saying,
well, well, how is hegoing to travel in history if he's black,
And I'm saying, well, that'sa good thing. For the same

(13:00):
reason that one of the things Ireally like about the witch Finders in Whittaker's
Eero is that she gets put ontrial because she's a witch. Other doctors
wouldn't necessarily have experienced that kind ofdiscrimination, but because she's a woman,
she does. Yeah, and youknow, there's there's a real opportunity there.
And in a way, I thinkto make up a little bit for

(13:22):
the fact that I feel that RussellT. Davis didn't he shied away a
little bit in his historical stories fromreally contextualizing them. I mean, there
is a lot to be said thathistorical stories, or our understanding of history
can be. You know, historyisn't necessarily what really happened is what people
wrote down. So everyone thinks thateveryone was white and there wasn't any ethnicity

(13:46):
EO range of ethnicities until like thenineteen sixties. In London. But of
course in reality that's not true.But sometimes I do think, I like
in the Shakespeare Code, for example, where there's kind of a token mention
of the fact that Martha's black.She's like and he's like, oh,
you'll be fine, and it's kindof like, well, you know,
perhaps there are opportunities to explore thosekinds of issues and those ideas without kind

(14:11):
of ignoring it and making people inhistory like they are nowadays. You know,
people don't have the same attitude.I think that's one of the reasons
why Rosa is so praised in thatit does actually confront that, albeit the
whole story is about that doesn't haveto be, you know, all about
a big, weighty issue like thatto have you know, there was a
little bit of that in Capaldi's time. I felt with Bill and they went

(14:35):
to the Frost Fare and things likethat. But yeah, but yeah,
Rosa in particular because it dealt withRyan's experience as well as Yeah, well
they had that conversation and ye didn'tknow where to sit because she wasn't black.
Yeah. Well, I think whenRyan gets slacked in that episode like

(14:58):
that, like everyone just stops.Yeah, you know, that is like,
this is this is what we're doing, this is the live and so
are like, that's not going tohappen with a white companion and a white
doctor. And I do hope thatyou know, there is some acknowledgement of
that, because you know, it'sa fine line. You know, you

(15:20):
want the doctor to be recognized byeveryone as the doctor and not different significantly.
But you know, I think there'sopportunities for good writers to explore aspects
that the show hasn't really been outto do before. So I hope and
I expect Russell T. Davis willdo because I think his sort of political

(15:43):
views and allegory in the first eraof his I think we're a little more
subtle than perhaps he is a writer, will be. Now I'm not saying
he'll necessarily get on a soapbox,but I feel, judging by his last
few projects, I think he's morekeen to perhaps make statements with what he's
writing, explore things a bit more, or at the very least not brush

(16:06):
them under the carpet. Yeah,and I was. I was, and
this is terrible, but I wasjust googling because I was like, well,
I don't know the answer, andagain, not that it matters,
but I checked it anyway, Sothink of me what you will. UM
obviously in sex Education with Shooty playingsuch an out gay character, and then
given, um Russell Davis is recentwell him and him himself, but his

(16:27):
recent projects as well, UM withits A Sin and others, and given
uh, you know his a comment. You know, it's always thrown around
now where he's saying, you know, I think I'm paraphrasing. You know,
only gay actors should play gay characters, um, and so then and
so I googled because I was like, so Shooty gay, and and the

(16:52):
the web basically says he doesn't.He hasn't said one or the other.
So and I'm not going to getinto his private life as well, because
a lot of people were saying,you know, this is a big thing,
we've got a queer actor playing thedoctor. But I didn't other than
the character that he's I believe thecharacter plays in Sexification is gay, isn't
he? But other than that,I didn't see any necessary confirmation of that.

(17:15):
Like like you said, I thinkfrom the point of view of having
the character be romantic if you will, or sexual, and I'm looking at
it's interesting isn't it, Because you'vegot you've got tenant And obviously Eccleston's doctor
was going that way. That wasobviously a development that was going through that

(17:37):
sort of tenants doctor picked up andyou've then got him. I think as
a response to the fact that alot of people fancy that kept the incarnation
of the doctor the audience, thatis, they kind of played into that
a bit um. I suppose youcould say Matt Smith was a kind of
a romantic because he had the relationshipwith River, although personally, and this

(18:00):
might be something that I look atat some point, I never felt it
really rang true sometimes because one minutehe was really awkward and then next minute
he was very suave. I thinkit worked better with that one episode with
Capaldian River. There was a sensethere of love rather than sort of coquettish
sexy jokes like you got with theSmith incarnation. But then with this Matt

(18:23):
Smith was more romantic with a capitalAre this coquettish sort of yeah? Yeah,
latonic idea almost absolutely yeah. Yeah. And obviously he had a I
think the word you used was vivaciousor feisty all the time to describe Amy
Pond come on to him and everything, and he sort of backed away from

(18:45):
that. I think he I thinkof that later said that he regretted.
Yeah, that seemed slightly the waythat he wrote the end of Time of
Angels where she's sort of basically assaultinghim. So yeah, But anyway,
then, of course you've got thealmost almost too late nature of the Yas

(19:10):
and thirteenth Doctor relationship, which Ithink will be really interesting to see in
this this upcoming special. So Ithink I'm what I'm thinking about here is,
you know, would you then havethe fourteenth Doctor immediately develop a romantic
attachment to a companion. And maybeI'm making the mistake as someone who's watch

(19:32):
all of Doctor Who and sees usas one of the big story. Of
course, Rossterti Davis, although he'svery aware of the previous year, I
think this new series will likely bea kind of a soft reboot, akin
to the Christopher Equeston first season,in order to appeal to a wider audience
and sort of remarket it. Youknow, So maybe and rosso tie Davis

(19:53):
does tend to. One of hisbig things as a writer is exploring interpersonal
relation ships romantic relationships between the leadsand characters. So I think it would
surprise me if he didn't at somepoint, you know, choose to sort
of go into that territory in someway. But I think as a viewer

(20:14):
long term of who I'm kind of, i'd like the Doctor not necessarily be
asexual again, but a little bitless, a little less of the romance
with the long term romance aspect,So I prefer more, like you say,
the platonic love that he has forhis companions. But I think it's

(20:36):
you know, episodic versus inside thetargets. You know, there can be
a you know, a fling onan episode and like with Elizabeth or Marilyn
Monroe, like, yeah, youknow, that's a very I mean,
I know, whether you like itor not. And I think that's a
that's a very romance for the Doctor. It contained, doesn't it. Yeah,
Yeah, it's explored. It doesn'thave to be this ongoing you know,

(21:00):
I love you because I think thereason why I'd rather not have that
Maybe it's because I'm not pretty imaginative, but I feel that the story can
always only end one way. Wehad that with Rose, yeah, to
some extent. Yeah, you know, and we had that with with trying

(21:21):
to think that but and then doneto obviously have it with yeahs, aren't
we uh done? Sort of theanti companion or you know, anti reaction
companion, like we're staying up frontthat this isn't a romantic relationship, you
know, yeah, yeah, andthen she snocks him, but yeah,
but yeah, so yeah, andso in the day that Davis two era,

(21:44):
I guess if that's what we're goingto call it, I think people
are calling a rt D two thecommon there for it, so, you
know, and I wonder what youthink I mean, is you know,
in his headspace because you're saying,you know, you're thinking, like with
like a soft reboot, is herebooting himself? Like you know, is
he you know, I think you'llacknowledge that he says he's grown as a

(22:07):
writer. He's not going to bethe same as he was in you know,
two thousand and five, but like, you know, is he like
rewatching himself or does he just liketaking what he did before and it's all
to the side, And how howwill you know? How will Because he's
always a surprising writer, isn't he. Yes, he has a definite style,

(22:29):
but every time he does a project. It's always like throwing a big
rock into the into a Placid lakeor something, and the ripples go out.
You know, when he did yearsand years maybe did it's a sin.
It's always been recognizably Davis, butit's always made a big splash.
And you know, I don't Ithink he wouldn't want to just redo what

(22:52):
he's done before. And I thinkthere's a different objective in a way than
than before. And in some ways, isn't the for lack of then as
an American Express And aren't the safetiesoff? I mean, because you know,
in Davis swannial he had to beI'm restarting doctor who I don't know
if there was even last a fewmonths of the last year. I gotta
be careful this one, like,and I don't, I don't know what
happened. And maybe you know wheneveryou do your video years from now,

(23:15):
y'all. But like I assume theycame to him. I don't think he
came to them, you know.And so yeah, you know, you
know, he's a much much morestock I guess, not that he didn't
have it before, and so youknow, he has a lot more freedom.
I guess is what I'm saying about. Yeah, that's true, that's
true. I mean he was,he was, you know, he was.

(23:36):
He was quite proven when he didthe first his first stint adoptor Who.
But I think that really cemented hisstatus internationally really um and yeah,
now he's going to be I think, far more in control, perhaps creatively.

(23:57):
I mean he had the benefit beforeor that no one really believed that
it would work as such, youknow, apart from the key players.
And it did really change the TVlandscape. I think, certainly in this
country. It proved that you know, Saturday Night, which TV studios had

(24:18):
given up on for making you know, family programming. It proved that that
that still existed, there was stilla market. There be interesting to see
how this new era might might affectTV because there's an obviously completely different landscape
now with streaming, with people notwatching television live that that often. I

(24:41):
mean, it's quite it's quite funnybecause people, you know, as usual,
they cherry pick what they want totry and prove their points and they
leave our important context. When yousee, oh, no, doctor Who
one he got four formal room viewers. But then you look at the show
that like everyone's talking about and there'sa massive success and everyone you know probably
like water cooler stuff and that gotfive million viewers as well, and you

(25:03):
think, well, why is onethat? And it's because they're comparing it
with itself all the time. Who'salways compared with itself? And it's compared
with different contexts, and then it'sjust i mean not that you know,
not that I'm an obviously immediate person, but like and we'll talk about it
here in a second, but likeyou know, in Sea Devils and it's
like overnights, you know, orI'm are terrible, the lowest ever,

(25:25):
and I'm like, hold on,hold on, hold on. I know
I watched it's on you know,streaming, just because like we weren't on
time, so like I watched itan hour later and I'm like, can
we just wait? Like it mayvery well be the lowest for all I
know, but can we just waittill we get the other numbers? But
it was like all the headline,I'm like, guy's just wait. And
then of course three days later it'slike it wasn't as bad, you know,

(25:45):
you know, I'm like, okay, twenty twenty two, we do
this is going to happen like Icould get this was five years ago we
said that, but like, aswe know how it works. So I'm
just like, you've got to You'vealways got to place any kind of thing
like that in the context that's relevant. And if you look at other programs
and stuff, then yeah, there'sprograms that get more viewers live than Doctor

(26:06):
Who does currently. But you know, if you look at it in the
context, it's still in you know, the top twenty of the top ten
in certain days and things like that. And you know, if for those
of us, if you know,if people are genuinely concerned about the thing.
I mean, obviously with the thenew era with Bad Wolf productions coming

(26:30):
in and doing it, you knowthat's all going to change anyway. So
you just see the kind of responsethat the casting of Shooty Gutler has had,
and that was as far as Icould see, the BBC basically just
announced it on Twitter. Yeah,you know, they didn't need a big
campaign and a big special show.That's cringeworthy. You know. I remember

(26:52):
when Matt Smith was announced and itwas like an hour long episode of Doctor
Who Confidential, and they it wasbasically everyone's skirting around the issue for a
final shot of Matt Smith at theend, and everyone went, was that
but now to just get an ideaof the interest that's there and the interest
in this new era in particular,they just put a picture up of shooting
out one say he's the fourteenth doctorwith no extended you know. They did

(27:17):
do interviews and stuff following that,obviously in the red card and stuff,
but just that thing was enough toset the sort of the general public talking
about it. People are asking me, you know that wouldn't I would have
thought, oh, all the doctorwho fans I know will know this because
they followed it. All the peoplethat are really into social media may have
come across it. But I hadpeople who I wouldn't have thought would eat

(27:40):
they're not on Twitter, they heardabout it and they just said, oh,
what do you think of the newdoctor? Then to me, you
know, as in my opinion,and you know, I just thought,
well, how do you know thatit was so you assumed it was so
small scale? But I think that'sa good that's a good measure of how
much interest there is in this newera and how it's going to go from

(28:00):
a from a creative point of viewof Russell T. Davis. I think
we also have to bear in mindthat the context of production is going to
be different as well, because it'sto shoot well. I mean, there's
lots of speculation. Obviously Bad Wolfis a big studio company up and coming,

(28:21):
and allegedly they I heard the otherday that a studio they work with
or something that's just acquired essentially theyou know, the big live screens that
they use for like Mandalorians like that. Apparently there's I can't remember it's called
now, but apparently the studio thatthey're most likely filming the new doctor who

(28:41):
will have that learned access to that. So it's it's kind of like us
what do you call it in ain a theater, Yeah, sort of
a curved background. But what itis instead of using green screen is essentially
rear projection, but it's a CGanimated environment that's linked to the cameras,

(29:03):
so when you move the camera andthe act of the background shifts to accommodate.
And you know, it really tookthe world by storm when we realized
that The Mandalorian was all shot almostexclusively using this thing. They never went
out on location anywhere, so youknow, I hope they do still do
a lot of location stuff, butI think the possibilities are open, and
I mean I was really pleased andimpressed by the level of the special effects,

(29:30):
for example, in the in Flux. I think, you know,
it's just miles ahead of what theycould achieve before. So the reason why
I'm saying this is that, asalways, it's how can that serve us
the story? And I think itmakes the palette that Russell T. Devis
has to sort of paint on nowthe canvas a lot wider. He can

(29:52):
create much more interesting things that perhapshe wouldn't have been able to do before
because of the technology and the moneythat that was available in the in the
mid two thousands. Now the fartinggreen aliens going to look even cooler.
Ica any final thoughts about Shooty andthe and Russell and what's to come next

(30:12):
year? I mean, I'm lookingforward to it all. What's the what's
the time scale? Do we know? Well? I mean, you know
as much as I mean we have. I mean it's the we have the
we know we know theoretically when thelast Whittaker is going to be this year,
um, but next year, andI mean it's just KG twenty twenty
three is all I've gotten. Um, you know, are we gonna be

(30:33):
waiting all the way until Christmas?Richard? Or or or are we doing
Christmas again? You know? Whatare we doing? What? Do you
quite know? No one really knows, I think. I mean there's a
lot of rumor, there's a lotof assumption, um, And people have
looked at different people's filming schedules.I think Shooty Gutwell will be filming another
series of sets education before he sortof takes on the role. Um.

(30:57):
I think. I mean it alldepends. So it's up in the air
really about how the centenary special isgoing to go. Is it going to
be a new doctor or is itgoing to be some sort of unusual look
at it? You know, peopleare saying about having past doctors because there's
always the David Own's going to beback. People are really clinging desperately onto

(31:18):
that notion. I mean, itwouldn't be it wouldn't be weird. I
think to have what might be interestingmight be to have like a I don't
think this is necessarily likely, butit might be interesting to have an anniversary
special which doesn't actually feature the newincarnation of the Doctor but has previous incarnation

(31:40):
sort of working together, and thenthe new Doctor is unveiled at the end.
I don't know if that would bea good idea or not, but
I think it might be an interestingway to sort of turn it on its
head a little bit. You know, I think the Day of the Doctor
during the fiftieth anniversary, so well, yeah, yeah, that's true.
Yeah, yeah, indeed. Sowhether at the end of this centenary special
we'll see the new Doctor or youknow, we'll have that. I mean,

(32:04):
people are saying, well, weknow that we're took filmed her her
last scene, and they took apart all the Tardists, and we're pretty
sure then that shooting out one wasn'tcast then. But that's so, you
know, will she regenerate in theTardist? Will she regenerate? I thinking
with modern technology, it's very easyto have her regenerate into him and just
shoot his stuff on a green screen. You could do that relatively easily with

(32:28):
decent you know, not if youdon't have him interacting too much with the
environment or whatever. But it's notthe first time. I mean, the
tenant wasn't on stage when Eccleston regenerated. They filmed that a later date.
I think Matt Smith and David Tenantwere there was another one I know where

(32:52):
there was a gap between it.Yeah, that was filmed at a different
day, wasn't it. Yeah.And it's seems like the major sticking point
for people is that they've dismantled theset. I'm thinking, well, that's
not really a sticking point. Imean, they could do it numerous ways.
I think I'm open to be surprisedbecause you just don't know necessarily what

(33:13):
what what Russell T gave us willwant to do. I mean, if
it was more fat, I'd beone hundred percent sure that we'd see a
physical regeneration from one end to theother in camera, because you know,
I think that the fanboy itch andhim was why he went back and made
sure that you saw Paul mcgam regenerateand even started to see John John Hurt

(33:34):
regenerate and all those kinds of things. So so who knows really how it's
going to go along where we won'tsee him properly for that time. I
don't. I don't. I thinkthe Anniversary Special, the way it's all
been phrased that the Anniversary special willcome and then there'll be a series.
Now. I mean, it doesn'tmake sense to show the anniversary special any

(33:58):
earlier than November, so maybe wemight potentially be waiting that long, you
know, and then yeah, itmight be, Yeah, it might be
like that they do an anniversary andthen they start series fourteen is a fourteen
I don't even remember. Um,they start that like in the New Year,

(34:20):
a bit like they did with thelast the series just before Flux with
Jody Whittaker, where they started theseries on Nee's Day and then it ran
forward from there. I mean thatmight be, but who knows. Really
it's exciting though. Are they goingto have to reshoot all the stuff over
the Doctor who experienced Yeah, whichwe finally went to the other couple of

(34:45):
weeks ago, so um for thetime fracture? Yes, yes, yeah,
take it down for a week andrefilm. So you know, so
moving on or at least moving backwards, I guess as it is, let's
go, you know, we arein as as I think Russell T.
Davis said there can only be onedoctor, and that one doctor right now

(35:06):
it's the thirteenth doctor. So wehad Legend of the Sea Devils if I'm
saying that title correct the other month, and then we'll have the as we've
talked about special here in September,question mark about you know, Jody's last
go so so, Jessica, whatdo you think of what we saw with
Sea Devils and where the heck RooneyWe're going to be going for one quick

(35:29):
fix everything story. Yeah. Iliked Sea Devils. Okay, I didn't
like it as much as you did, I think, and I'm struggling at
the moment to remember why, butgive me a minute again. It feels
like they tried to do a lotin a little because I guess what I

(35:49):
liked about it is and I don'tknow if I'm grading on a curve.
Is that unlike a lot of Chinnelstuff, there weren't that many guest stars
taking over like I thought with theNew Year's I was gonna say, the
New Year's dollic one that doesn't narrowit down, I know with Chiminal,
but the recent one where you justhad the two guest stars basically and the
Dolleks, and so I thought itwas a little more restrained, and you
know, it's almost a what dothey call it bottle episode, like it

(36:14):
was just just shooting in these fourrooms, you know, basically, So
I mean, which is I thoughtthat was an interesting concept with the timeline,
but I'm going into that. Butwith Sea Devils, you know,
we just had the I forgot it'sname, so I apologized the lady pirate
that's not her name, which tookDan and took the other character. So
we did have two guests there,but then the other part of the gang,

(36:37):
yeahs and the doctor m were sortof you know, you had the
bad guy and all that, butwas sort of over there. So but
that was it. There weren't likefifty guest stars like they usually are in
Chiminal and so I told me itwas a little you know, a little
bit more restrained. But um Iit was fun, you know, not
neither good nor bad. But butthen introducing at the end about the as

(36:58):
Richard you were saying with the actorand yeah, something like there's one episode
you guys are not going to landthis train, and you know you are.
Yeah, I think I was similar. I thought either of the Daleks
was was really really good. Ireally enjoyed that, and especially after I

(37:20):
mean I liked Flux I even kindof you know, the ending A lot
of people felt, as they doa lot of the time these days,
which shows that the ending kind hasritroactively ruined the what had led up to
it. I didn't feel that.I kind of enjoyed it, but obviously
it's a victim of its own ambition. You know, there's too many characters,
there's too many guest characters that aren'tserved. There's a lot of plot

(37:43):
threads that aren't really resolved and won'tbe resolved. Um but it was a
great achievement considering the circumstances under whichit's made. And I think it's worth
remembering that both either of the Daleksand Dungeons of the Sea Devils and the
Forthcoming and any special were also madeunder those circumstances and those restrictions. Um

(38:07):
But I felt with legend was obviouslyvery exciting, especially for someone of my
vintage with Doctor Who, to seethe Sea Devils come back and for them
to look so great. Um,you know, they look like Doctor Who
monsters. I'm sure if you've neverseen Doctor people, like, what's what's
their silliness? Um? You knowthey'd updated them, but you can't disguise

(38:29):
the fact that that costume is aseventies monster costume, you know, the
guy's head is clearly in the neckand all that kind of thing that the
but it was just glorious. Ithink one of the benefits is that things
like maybe the Marvel movies have comealong and shown that you can do silly
and audiences will still like it.And I think that's of a benefit because

(38:50):
I was perhaps unfairly but very disappointedby the Silurians being redesigned and another Christian
story. And I understand why theydid that. They made them look more
more human, more mammalian than theyhad been originally. But yeah, it
was it was great. The designis always in these in this era.

(39:15):
I think it's been amazing costume designand things like that. I think that
Legend of the Sea Devils was avictim somewhat of the fact that because we
don't get as much Doctor Who nowand when it's a special that comes out,
you're like, well, I putall my expectations on this. There's

(39:36):
a lot that it's got to getthrough, and it's built up, but
it's supposed to be a romp,you know, and I think it fulfills
that to the extent that, youknow, the best romps you're not really
supposed to think too much about them. You just go along for the journey.
You know, there's a lot ofmcguffins in a romp them. This
certainly fulfills that, because there's alot of illogical things that happen. You're

(39:57):
like, why, like why doesthe Sea Devil suddenly somehow jump and levitate
onto his ship? Like they've neverproven to be done in that before,
Like why why is that? Therewas a bit of convoluted stuff about time
travel, which I don't think necessarilywas pulled off that for boring sad fans

(40:19):
like myself. I think the missedopportunity of having the sea Monster be the
Murker, which in Worries the Deepwas the thing in the nineties that was
always dragged out to say, howcrap doctor who was look at this?
It was a pantomime horse with twopeople walking over polystyrene walls that the sea
devils controlled. And so when thetrailer for Legend the Sea Devils came out,

(40:40):
it was look at this enormous monsterthat's under the sea. That's definitely
going to be the Murker, andwe're going to show all those you know,
cynical people in the nineties who mockedus that this is what we can
do now, and then it hasout not to be the murker. Well,
that's the missed opportunity. Didn't reallymatter. It's probably I don't know,

(41:02):
maybe I haven't always been paying attentionin the past, but most of
the time I can accept when there'slike a little bit you're like, oh,
that doesn't quite make sense. Butboth myself and my wife were watching,
and obviously Yas and the thirteenth Doctorare under the water and they have
that lovely bit and then the groundfalls away and then the monster bites the

(41:22):
tardiest and you get that trailer shot, and then they're inside somewhere. They're
inside the base, And my wifesaid, how did they get there?
And I was like, automatically,in defensive, I was like, well,
the doctor clearly dematerialized ended up thereor maybe deposited the taster. But
thinking about it, there's clearly somethingmissing there. They're on this side in

(41:44):
a base, like, how didthey get there? I must I must
point out I've only seen it theonce at the moment, so maybe there's
things I've missed. But other peopleappeared to have issues with that as well,
and it did seem a little bit. I think it was the editing
of things. It was the wayit was edited together. Maybe it was

(42:06):
intended to be longer and had tobe chopped down because it for a special.
The running time seemed quite short.I would have if I had another
fifteen minutes to breathe. I thinksome of the little inconsistencies could have been
been tied up, but I don'tknow the production context that create that,
which is what I'm very excited fora ninety minute special. What I hope

(42:27):
that Chris Cheneral does with that centenaryspecial is that he doesn't usually think,
well, I've got half an hour, forty minutes longer, I'll stick in
another five plot threads start now nowthat we're getting to it. I'm sure
the teas are excited a lot ofpeople, and there are reasons to be
excited. But and again, youknow, I don't want to be that

(42:49):
kid will sucks back because I don'tknow. But when I see the teaser
and like the Master's coming back thatI remember like five people are coming back,
I'm like, oh God, thisis going to be the night of
fifty guests again, isn't it.I mean like, we need a story
that says goodbye to the thirteenth Doctor. Somehow I'll get rid of these companions
in a nice twigs. I'm surethey're not coming along, and I'm like,

(43:09):
I can't know. We've got obviously, we've got the Doctor, Yeas
and Dan, which is, youknow, a good team. Well,
and problem is Dan's never really didn't. I certainly expect Graham to show up
and speak to Dan, mainly becauseone time I saw a photograph of what
appeared to be them filming the centenaryspecial around the time that someone you know

(43:32):
how Chipnal is so guarded with secrets, and then someone on the on the
production team just walked out with abox that had Master written on it,
and everyone then knew the Master wasgoing to be in the in the finale.
It was around that time I sawa photograph of Bradley Walsh on set
with John Bishop, So I thinkit's most likely that he's gonna He's going

(43:55):
to show up, probably as partof Dan's farewell or something. Whether he'll
have an extended role in it,I don't know. Obviously, you're going
to have the subplot of a SaintEagan and then you've got but but you've
also got to bear in mind thatbecause I turned to my wife and I

(44:16):
just because I was one of thosevery I hesitate to use the word squee
because it makes uncomfortable, but Iwas very excited when I saw a Saint
Egan. And I think it's justso amazing to come full circle there because
Janet Fielding was someone who, forone reason or another, for a very
long time. Kind of maybe I'mbeing unfair, but she kind of seemed

(44:38):
to disown Doctor Who a little bit, and she sort of came back around
to it with big finish and whenthe new series started, and now she
seems a big part. She know, she's on all the Blue Rays and
watching Doctor Who and things like that. She has a healthy dose of cynicism
towards it herself. But you know, to see her come back and to

(44:58):
have see Ace, because I knowthat that was what they were kind of
intending. They were definitely intending forSophie Aldia to have a guest part in
the Sarah Jane Adventures, which obviouslydidn't come about. So it was nice
to see her those two. ButI did say to my world, how
on earth did they pull that off? Like surely someone would have seen them.

(45:19):
And she said, well, maybethey're only in it like a little
bit. It's just a tiny cameokind of thing. They're in one room,
and you know, there is thatpossibility that it's kind of me.
I think it's because she don't liketo get her hopes up have them dashed.
Yeah, but I know also thatKate Stewart's going to be in it.

(45:42):
I believe as well. That's true. Again, this is where I
mean, like, you know,I don't want to be like but like
in our soundscore, but I'm like, god, this is it. Like
we're saying, good boy, itwas going to be busy. It's gonna
be busy. But but you know, with ninety minutes there might be enough
to satisfactorily you know, do that. But we'll see, we'll see.

(46:02):
I'm not saying, you know,I believe that it will be fine.
But I'm not saying I think,oh, he's not going to pull it
off, because I'm always optimistic aboutit, and I do think that chipnal
can he can pull it off sometimes, you know, and really get it,
like like all the all the showrunners. They've that finale is always a
difficult one to do because expectations arehigh, and especially if it's a a

(46:25):
generation story as well, everyone hasa certain expectation of it. I always
felt and a kind of intimated thisa bit in my last video about the
Tenant era, that I felt thatRossity Davis sometimes built it up so much.
He created a check so big hecouldn't quite cash it in the finale,
and I prefer the earlier parts ofthose seasons. But we'll see.

(46:46):
Really, I think, you know, there probably will be some element of
you press the button and we reseteverything, But that's not a failing of
Chipnal. That's kind of dorigur fora lot of Doctor Who that I think,
as long as theory, I thinkthe real heart of it is the
thirteenth Doctor and Yeas and how thatrelationship is going to be resolved. So

(47:08):
I think Juvenal sometimes has an issuewith prioritizing what is the most important part
in this story, what is thestory really about, and really zeroing in
is a spectacle that Yeah, althoughI got to be honest, I think
John Bishop with Shootie would be areally interesting combination. Definitely, that would

(47:31):
be it does go completely against myyeah, my older and white man,
but I do I can just seeJohn Bishop just being like a thought,
you're not the Beagles documentaries again.But so I'm curious what you think because

(47:59):
you know, as as you're saying, you know, with all the endings,
and as I'm looking back, andthis is my opinion, obviously,
I think ten and eleven Finals waslike I mean the endings. I thought
the actual ending like that that lastminutes we're all good, but end of
time like yeah, yeah, it'sall right. And then the eleventh doctors
um, day of the dit whatnotwhatever doctor was um, now I liked

(48:22):
I loved the Capaldi Christmas special,but that was just me um. But
by anyway, how are we sayinggoodbye? He has without without I mean
you've seen how companions leave, yeahdie memory loss. Yeah, how are
we How can she leave the doctor? I think it has to be the

(48:43):
doctor very gently, as as thisparticular doctor would do saying this is not
something I do or this is notsomething I'm prepared to do. And yeah,
as making the choice to walk away, almost like Martha, because I
think the not that that can't bedone, but I think the Yeas we've

(49:05):
seen for not the whole series,at least the past year and a half
is the Obsessed. Yes, whichI'm not saying it's either bad nor good,
but like when the Doctor was putin prison, we had, you
know, the next episode, Yeasis like stuck in the other tartists with
all her notes and all that,and so the Obsessed, either in a
good or unhealthy way, I'll letothers characterize. I mean, it's gonna

(49:27):
take a lot, you know,it's almost like the Thirteenth Doctor says that
and you know, disappears and regenerates, and Yas is on the mission,
you know, in big finish forthe next ten years, trying to find
the doctor, like you like CaptainJack or something. We'll get the Yeah,
and maybe this is where Graham comesin to sort of Nope, Nope,
Nope, time to go back tothe police station. Yeah, yeah,

(49:52):
I don't know. Well, Ithink also, I mean, you've
got the issue and we don't obviouslyknow this is that Chivenal's gonna have to
wrap it up to a point whererussellity Davis will need to pick it up
from and that won't necessarily be ayou know, a big, definitive sort
of point. But you know theywill have swapped notes to an extent of

(50:16):
like where do you want where doyou want the doctor to be? You
know where? Where what situation doyou need to begin your series with?
So there's going to be that discussion, and I think most likely, you
know, we're going to need thenew era is going to need the doctor,
you know, separate in the sameway that Tenant finished, you know,

(50:37):
the Rusty Davis era finished before,so that then the moffat Eric could
come in and and start a newSo we're going to need some resolution to
all of that. You know,Sorry, how will the tartarts explode?
Yeah? I mean ten to elevenand twelve to thirteen we have to explode

(50:58):
the Tartart somehow. So so becauseof that, we're going to need Yas
to leave the Doctor prior to her. So does that mean we're going to
have some sort of extended death orare they you never know, are they
going to completely surprise us and actuallynot have her die at the end and

(51:22):
for her to be in the specialI mean, I don't think that's likely.
She might, but you know,we don't know for sure. We
don't know for certain, And we'reused now to celebrities on interview saying I'm
done the saying one thing and thenI mean the guy who played Andrew Garfield
for about a year before had togo to the I'm not I'm not in

(51:43):
spoilers for anyone who hasn't seen it, but I think the cat's out of
the bag now. So you neverknow. I mean, if they're not
filming, I mean some people mightsay, well, well, Jully Whittaker
is obviously pregnant and so she wouldn'tbe able to film, but um that
as far as I know, theyhaven't filmed anything yet, and she,

(52:07):
you know, she certainly hasn't gotanything on the cards. I mean when
we saw her at the convention,she said someone asked her at the evening
thing, her and Mandate Fiel,we're doing a talk together, and they
say, you know what's next,and she's like, well, I'm going
to be busy for a little while, referring obviously to the fact that she's
going to give birth. But younever you never know, you know,

(52:29):
there might be some little cameo whoknows. We just don't know how it's
going to go down. So yeah, it's going to be obviously particularly interesting
because I think when it came tothe end of the Tenant era, or
the end of the Russell T.Davis era, and as well going into
the final for the for the forthe end of the moth at Area era,

(52:53):
we we kind of knew where itwas going, you know. We
knew that the Tenth Doctor was goingto have some big showdown with the Master
and the Four Knocks and that hewould end up on his own because he
didn't have a companion in those specialsleading up. We knew that Capaldi he

(53:13):
was already dying before he got tohis finale, you know, And I
know some people would rather he havedied and regenerated in the actual world enough
and time before he got to twicewas it twice upon a time? Twice
upon a time. But we kindof going into the finale, I don't
think there's ever been less information orless certainty about how is this going to

(53:37):
go down? You know, weknow that they're all going to have to
leave, but how is that goingto happen? I Mean, some people
as always say, well, Yasis going to die, but that very
very rarely ever happens with a companionnot in a family program to kill off
the companion. I just I meanthey tried, you know, Adric as
as close as this got. Anddespite never really liking Adric when I was

(53:59):
going help since realize that a lotof people were really shocked when they killed
him off, And I just don'tthink they would do that, not with
Yas. I don't think they'll killher off. So she has to leave.
So she has to leave before thedoctor is so fatally injured that there's
no coming back. So maybe she'llgo to universe, well, a parallel

(54:24):
universe, or I was thinking offwith Amy and Rory in the time in
the Timelin Yeah, possibly, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm
sorry. I know that we're trying. I could see that that's the storyline
where Yazz has to make a decisionabout um, you know, in order
to save whatever the people the worldthe galaxy has either you know, leave

(54:45):
the doctor forever by pressing this buttonor going to this universe or being stuck
in this times knowing that she hasto do that. So where Yaz makes
the sacrifice and gets stuck away fromthe doctor whatever that means, or sending
the doctor something. There could besome misdirection as well, because people are
saying that. Obviously in the trailer, you've got a lot of little moments

(55:07):
to grab your attention, but theycan be misleading, like, for example,
you appear to see the doctor regeneratingand saying yeas, but if you
look at the effect, it looksmore like perhaps she's open that mysterious fop
watch that she shouldn't or maybe evenforced to. And you know, some
people are saying, whether the Masteris there and he's saying this is the

(55:28):
day you die. He might notbe saying that to the doctor but rather
to Yas perhaps, and that thedoctor chooses, perhaps to sacrifice herself to
save Yas in some way, makesome sort of choice, a bit like
how Tendant had to put Rose inthe parallel sort of make her go to

(55:49):
the parallel universe, and even soshe came back and got suck through that.
His intent was that he had to, you know, make a choice
in a way in order to saveher or save himself. And of course
with with Wilf though I still thinkhe could have been slightly more humble in
that moment. People always that's aone convent, the one Chris I always

(56:10):
getting my video now is death thatit's perfectly in character, and it's like,
I don't know, I just findit difficult that the doctor has a
tantrum like a teenage boy. AndI know it makes sense from the point
of view of other character, ofyou know, when you're writing character,
But I just find it a bitdifficult that the doctor, having previously sacrificed

(56:32):
himself so quite willingly for people likePerry and others, that he then has
a big temper tantrum, sort ofrubs his face and goes, yeah,
now, all right then, SoI hope Whittakers is a little bit more.
She doesn't have such a trouble makingthe decision in a way. I

(56:54):
don't think she's as vain an incarnation. So just cool, howdy, I'm
even I'm telling you to write anepisode. But in that last five minutes,
how how does Jody say goodbye toher character? How do you how
do you want the thirteenth doctor tosay goodbye? I don't know, it's
the short answer. Always gets thatnice monologue, which I know some people

(57:15):
think is over Dulton. I alwayslike it. I mean, if it's
done well, yeah, and Ithink Jody can out doctor I think she's
ready. I think this doctor isready to move. Um. And in
the same way that Jody's always beenup or that doctor has always been up

(57:37):
for the next adventure, I thinkthat that's the way this doctor will see
the regeneration. So I think it'llalmost be a flip of Peter Capaldi's doctor
Yep, let's do it. Yeah, And I guess, And I mean
this is always going to be wellfor me the complain about this era.

(57:59):
I almost feel like I do knowthis doctor that well. I mean,
God bless whenever she wants to dobig finish, because I feel like I'll
maybe I'll learn a whole lot more. But like, especially in these recent
episodes, it's all been about herfinding herself. Who am I as a
doctor? You know, the fobwatch and the past doctors and the and

(58:20):
you know, I love it ordon't love it. Um, it is
what it is, I guess,But like that's what her quest has been,
you know. And then but thenit's been so who am I?
I don't know who she is?And you're not going to tell me in
ninety minutes, I don't think yet. So it's a little sadness to me
that this is the Doctor I neverknew. I mean, I've enjoyed her,
I'm not but I don't know howto think it's something. I think

(58:42):
it's something that is going to beinterested in a way to sort of look
back on as a as an era, which obviously I will plan I plan
to do at some point and tosee how it's sort of developed and how
it's organically evolved, because I think, you know, there is a there
is a through line in the seriesabout identity and you know who I where

(59:07):
do you come from? What decidesthat? I think a lot of people
seem to forget in all the fireworksreal and imagined of the Timeless Children,
the actual story that is the episodeis that the Doctor does come to a
conclusion of you know, the Masteris essentially it's almost meta, because the

(59:28):
Master is someone who can't deal withthe fact that the Doctor is more than
what he thought they were and thathe owes in some way his existence to
that and he's stuck in you've gotto destroy the past and rip it all
down and destroy it's a lie,and you don't know who you are.

(59:49):
And she does come to somewhat ofa conclusion, which is it doesn't matter
who I was, where I comefrom. It's who I am and what
I do in the presence. She'svery much a doctor who and we've got
that kind of underlined in legend atthe Sea Devils, where she wants to
live in the present um, youknow, And I think you can look

(01:00:09):
at that and analyze it for differentaspects. Does that does that is that
strength of hers as a weakness asshe running away from confronting things. You
know, she's obviously fearful of whereshe's headed because of how Time told her
that you know you're you're in,You're going to end soon. She knows
this is going to happen, whichis what's kind of holding her back from

(01:00:30):
making a kind of commitment to Yasum. But she's she's very much an in
the present doctor, whereas her previousincarnation was very much a kind of He
also had that who am I am? I a good man kind of argument,
and he also had a bit ofan identity crisis to some extent,

(01:00:52):
he thought he was one way,then he very strangely becomes a very different
way, and then he settles downinto a kind of seems more comfortable.
In his last season, where he'swith who he is and how he presents
himself, and but it's not necessarilybeen as explicit, I think as some
people expect, and I think lookingback at it, and with the finale

(01:01:13):
coming up, I think there'll bethings that perhaps we haven't picked up on
as obviously in certain episodes that kindof work together. I'm not saying necessarily
that Christian mull is a genius,he sat down planned everything act, but
I think there has been a bitof an organic development of her seeking who
she is, and I think herconclusion in a way is that well,
she's the doctor. At the endof the day, you know she's she

(01:01:36):
is, That she's not someone whoneeds to go away and kind of brood
on things. She's she's a forceof nature in a way that that that
acts, and it's not about debateand analysis and things like that. It's
it's who you are, what youchoose to do, the actions, the

(01:01:58):
consequences of those actions in the presentrather than the past and even the future.
So in that way, I thinkshe's similar to Davidson's doctor and that
the fifth Doctor was someone who wasa little bit irritated by things going on,
but he was someone who was alwaysin the moment and acting, and
he didn't have the big schemes andplans that say the Seventh Doctor had.

(01:02:21):
Later he always is hanging on byhis fingertips and like, if he doesn't
at the last minute jury rings something, it's all going to fall apart,
and you know, there's that kindof breathless kind of anxiety to his and
I think the Whitaker Doctor has kindof become very similar to that. And
I think you could argue in away that that the Fifth Doctor seems a

(01:02:44):
bit superficial in a way, andhe also had a big Tardis crew team,
so you know, I think consciouslyor otherwise, Chipman has kind of
channeled that version of Doctor Who intoYou could argue that the Russet Davison moth
Out era kind of in some wayreminiscent as sort of seventies Doctor Who,

(01:03:07):
and I think Chibnal Zero has beenreminiscent of eighties Doctor Who in that regard.
And I think with having a doctorwho is very talking about their feelings
and analytical of these things and relationships, we've kind of come to expect that
because of of of those the previouseras, but actually Whitaker is very similar

(01:03:30):
to some of the earlier doctors whoperhaps are a little bit more superficial.
I mean, Tom Baker once saidit's a difficult part to play because the
character doesn't develop. It he doesn't, you know, And everyone sees Baker
as the definitive doctor all the time, you know, next to ten and
it's interesting to see that. Obviouslythings have changed somewhat in Doctor Who,
but also in television since the nineteenseventies. Obviously, but he once famously

(01:03:54):
said that it's not an acting part, not only because he was playing himself,
you know, but because he said, the character doesn't develop, it
doesn't have relationships, romantic relationships,so he doesn't see it as a as
a normal roles. He is,in a way, could be a two

(01:04:14):
dimensional character. Now a lot ofpeople don't like that, but I think
that in a way, the thirteenthDoctor era has been in a way truer
to that kind of impression of theinterpretation of the doctor than perhaps the way
that Davis and Movak developed the character. Whether that's the right thing to do

(01:04:34):
or not is another debate, butI think that's part of it. So
I think in a way, thespecial the finale won't necessarily be a big
soul searching thing. It might bejust a conclusion of like you say,
it might be I can't lose youand I want you to be happy,
and they share a kiss and hehas choosers. Probably that the benefit of

(01:05:00):
having Ace antiguan former companions who leftthe Doctor and then went on in their
respective lives too. And we certainlywe know with Ace that she you know,
developed this charity, she's you know, changed the world and all this
kind of thing, and earlier withJoe, I think that those characters will
probably be the ones rather than sayGraham, to reinforce that you know,

(01:05:24):
you need to make a choice tomove on. You can't keep running and
being in the present because the Doctoris someone who is always there and always
on and humans need to, youknow, retire at some point, so
to speak. And that reminds Ididn't think about that, which is obvious
when you say it. But likeyou think about the Score Union with Sarah

(01:05:45):
Jane, sorting Rose, the Talk, and even in the Sarah Jane episode
the Funeral, the Doctor's Funeral,the death of the Doctor, we have
Joe, Joe it kind of arubbers way. But the Eleventh Doctor explaining
to Joe or giving that moment aboutyou know, their relationship, you know

(01:06:08):
you were going to come back blahblah blah, and even to the stud
that So Joe and Sarah talked toeach other. So I didn't even think
about, of course with tiganum andall, and Sarah Jane was very much
the the next the next, thenext lady, so to speak to him,
you know, it was so yeah, and Joe was the one who
made the decision to leave. Um, Sarah Jane had that unfinished business because

(01:06:33):
she was sort of unceremonistly dumped somewhereand then see the Doctor for years.
So yeah, you've got different viewpoints. Tigan made the choice to leave in
quite a downbeat way. You know, it stopped being fun. So maybe
that's something that the end of theSeventh Doctor and Ace relationship like he potentially

(01:06:55):
yeah, well, I mean peopleare arguing like, well, what about
the cannon, what about Big Finish, Like there's any fix cannon with Doctor
who really, because there are storiesof what happens to Tiguan. There is
a mention in that Sarah Jane episodestory because there's that part about how the
companions have all gone on to changethe world and do different things. And
there's a mention of Tiguan and Nissa, who are a couple living in Australia,

(01:07:16):
I believe, So whether they'll touchon that or not, I don't
know. When they're saying on thezoom call or whatever it is or phone
call that they were doing, andshe's saying, I haven't seen the doctor
in forty years and for me it'sbeen thirty kind of thing three decades,
something like that that therefore wipes outother subsequent thing, because I mean,

(01:07:39):
Sophie Aldred herself wrote a novel whereshe is that Ace a Charitable Earth,
where she meets the thirteenth Doctor andDan and Yasm Graham and it was good
fun. But is that now parallelProbably doesn't really matter. You don't want
to, you don't want to bogthings down. But yeah, because that

(01:07:59):
did vide sort of an ending ofit was a flashback in that book where
that explained how Ace left the doctor. But Ace has left the Doctor about
five or six different times in differentmedia, so you could pick and choose
which one you prefer. There's onewhere she dies. There's one where she
becomes a time lord. There's onewhere she sort of zooms about on a
motorbike that travels through time and hasanother canine with her. So there's all

(01:08:25):
various. Because it was the wildernesses, there was kind of free, free
reign for everyone to come up withdifferent ways of developing the story. So
everywhere, well, speaking of muckingthings up, and we're going to close
here, but how Jessica, arewe ever? Are we going to see
the Fugitive doctor in this last special? And are we ever going to see

(01:08:48):
her afterwards? I kind of hope, so, oh, I hope,
So I can't believe that we're justgoing to leave her hanging. Richard,
I think it's very likely that willsee her in the special, whether that
will be her in person or assome sort of matrix avatar like she was

(01:09:08):
in The Timeless Children. I thinkthe latter is probably more likely. Or
you know, like when she opensthe watch, does she have previous incarnations,
you know, speak to her aboutthings, come to some sort of
resolution. I think it's unlikely thatwill see that character in the New Era,
only because I can see that beingyou don't tend to have those kind

(01:09:33):
of callback you might have the oddcontinuity callback reference Jack, since we can't
you know, yeah, yeah,well we see, you know, like
we see like Rose appear in theTardis in Matt Smith's time as a hologram,
and he's like, you make mefeel guilty, but I don't think
that we'll have that story. Illnecess to be picked up and run with.

(01:09:54):
I think it was interesting in adoctor magazine recently where they did ask
him a shipinal this is about whendoes it when? Where does she fit?
And he's like, wherever you wanther to? I know people want
definitive, but I like what you'resaying there, because you know you can
take the story and make it whatyou will. I mean, if you

(01:10:16):
want it to be. Like Ipersonally like the idea of her being in
between Trouton and Pertwee as a kindof secret incarnation that was working for the
CIA or the or the they werecalled the Celestial Intervention Agency. I imagine
the reason why they call them theDivision now is because that joke that Robert
Holmes made CIA is probably a bittoo on the nose these days, a

(01:10:40):
bit like how Unit is not allowedto be called the United nations and tell
the Tartals anymore has to be calledthe Unified Intelligence Tastles. But anyway,
yeah, I like that. Butyou know, some people say, well,
she could have been before before Heartnell, and you know that it's a
coincidence that the Tardis looks like apolice box and things like that. Obviously,

(01:11:03):
the big announcement came out that bothher and Sasha Duan's Master are going
to have box set spin off ofa big finish, So that'll be interesting
to see how they develop that anduse her character. I think in a
way, the fact that those twoboxets have been announced is proof positive really

(01:11:24):
that we're not going to have eitherof those incarnations show up past the Whittaker
era, which I think is ashame. There's some really great stories there.
But I can understand, at leastfrom the Fugitive Doctor point of view,
of why they wouldn't want to.They're expecting and I think they'll get
an influx of new viewers, andthat's why I think it's going to be
a soft reboot, and they're notgoing to have you know, you're getting

(01:11:45):
used to the character of the Doctoragain, You're not going to necessarily have
you know, this random mysterious otherincarnations show up, at least not for
the foreseeable future, maybe down theline. Hopefully this finale will in some
way resolve some of the unanswered questions. Not entirely, I mean, based

(01:12:06):
on Chibnal saying you can fit itin wherever you want, we're obviously you're
not going to get a definitive answerto it. But I think there's going
to be some resolution of that arcif you want of you know what the
Doctor was before the Timeless Child sortof thing. I think it's going to
be wrapped up in some respect.You know, there's going to be a
decision at least made, which isI think it doesn't matter, let's move

(01:12:29):
on kind of thing. Yeah,because that's kind of a point which I
know a lot of people can't reallydeal with. They want it all fixed
and set in stone. But that'snot Doctor who really is it. I
think it'll be a great shame that'ssuch a d one when Carron was the
Master, because I'd really love tosee more of him though I think he's
been a really good master. Obviouslyhe's going to be in this special but

(01:12:51):
I think it would be good tohave a master run over different incarnations like
the old days and a little bit, you know, with Anthony Amy's great
seeing seeing John sim come back forthe Capaldi story. You know, I
think it would be good to haveSasha to one continue as a master,

(01:13:12):
but maybe not. So how doyou how do you want to figurbye to
the thirteenth Doctor? Don't know?So long farewell. I'm sad because I
would have loved to have seen whatshe could do under a different writer.
But I'm really excited. I noteit's not how it works, and I'm
really excited about the next one.So roll on fourteen and you're goodbye to

(01:13:39):
the thirteenth Doctor. Richard. Ithink that doctor who was one of those
things where you never really say goodbyeto any of them, even the ones
who in the real world pass on, We've never really and they're always present.
I mean, having grown up inthe wilderness here and my doctor was
all the doctors to some extent I'vesaid before, you know, I watched

(01:14:00):
Hartnell and then i'd changed the tapeover and I'd watch Davidson and McCoy.
So in a way, the Doctor'salways kind of eternal in a way,
and I think that's going to bethe same with Jody Whittaker. And she's
such a lovely person and a greatambassador for the show. She's someone who's
always been proud of her association withit. I mean, I don't know
if you've seen times where she's beeninterview because she's a bit of a geek

(01:14:21):
herself, you know, she getsit. She's not like an uber fan
necessarily of things, but she getsthat thing, and she was so that
the reception that she had at theconvention in London was so rapturous and so
positive that I don't think the thirdwe're not the Thirteen Doctors not finished,

(01:14:42):
really, I think we're going tosee her again in other ways, and
that character is going to going tolive on, and as you say,
hopefully with the Breathing Room, withoutthe restrictions of budget and time and all
that, we're going to have hercharacter develop further and fill in some of
those some of those gaps a littlebit. So you know, I will
I will miss I'll miss also fora while, I think I'll miss having

(01:15:08):
a female doctor. I've found thatreally interesting and really inspiring for me as
well. I mean, it's athing that in my first video that I
made years ago, now, beforethe female doctor was cast, I was
sort of, you know, Iwasn't sure whether it would be the right
thing to do to cast a womandoctor because I felt that a male role
model that wasn't the stereotypical muscle boundcharacter that I'd grown up with was important

(01:15:33):
to me. But on reflection,I think I was making the mistake in
some way of seeing things as genderpolarized that when I was younger, I
wouldn't necessarily have seen a female leadas a role model as such. So
because that's the point, isn't tome? It isn't just about obviously importantly

(01:15:55):
having a female doctor as a goodempowering role model for young girls and women,
but I think also as an empoweringrole model for boys. And you
know, gender doesn't work quite thesame way as perhaps we were brought up
to believe in some way as well. So you know, it's it's a
shame in some way that you know, we can't keep maintaining that because I

(01:16:18):
think a lot of I don't thinkmany studios, production studios would have maybe
taken that step with something that wasso clearly, you know, bringing in
money and being that way it was. You know, they get risk averse,
don't they. So I think itwas a great a great choice and
a great achievement. And yeah,I've really enjoyed her incarnation, and yeah

(01:16:44):
I don't I'm not really ready tosay good by to her, but it's
okay because time is relative and youcan always put her back on again and
read more, you know. Yeah, yeah, And we'll look forward to
everyone that liking her her being theirnew favorite doctor a year from now exactly.
And of course I'm looking forward tothis young new whipper snapper to show
me that age spot a number.Well, thank you, Richard, And

(01:17:11):
so for everyone else, enjoy thefinal weeks and months and days of the
Thirteenth Doctor era and revisiting what shebrought us and the special that is to
come, and then look forward tothe fourteenth Doctor next year. Until all
of that continue enjoying the adventures ofthe Doctor throughout time and space. This

(01:17:46):
is BBC Television.