0612 | Long Exposures

New FOIA files, sightings, information, and the LaPlace cache take us back to Keyes's February trip to Texas and Louisiana. A fresh perspective on the disappearances of Mark Oldbury and Jimmy Tidwell help us shape a new timeline and process new discoveries.

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This episode was written, researched, edited, and produced by Josh Hallmark.
With additional research by: Jordan Taylor, Kaz, and Michelle Tooker.
And research assistance by: Kim K and Shana Wilensky.

This episode features:
Christina Alverson, Shana Wilensky, Jordan Taylor, and Michelle Tooker.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Join me and the researchers Thursday after the show at
nine p m. Eastern on YouTube for a live stream
discussion about the episode. The link to that live stream
is in the show notes. There's only a handful of
tickets left to join me Charlie from Crime Lines and
Laney from True Crime Cases with Laney on our South
American Wine Tasting trip. Travel with us from March first

(00:22):
through the sixth from Santiago, Chile to Mendoza, Argentina for
wine tasting, sight seeing and true crime conversations. We'll sip
malbeck in the South American summer and talk Israel Keys.
Learn more or book your trip by clicking the Trova
trip link in the show notes. The Birchshire Podcast Festival
is just two weeks away, but you can still snag

(00:44):
tickets for this incredible day long live show at Greylock
Works in North Adams. I'll be joined by Somewhere in
the Pines, who will be revealing exclusive new Keys information
at the event. Also on stage will be shows like
Generation Y, Truth Injustice, Lucy from Wine and Crime, Alvin
from Affirmative Murder, Crime Lines, Women in Crime, La Not

(01:07):
So Confidential. The trail went Cold and many more. Go
to Berkshire Podcast Festival dot com to see the full
lineup and purchase your tickets, and for the final two
weeks leading up to the event, use promo code fall
into the Sound for twenty percent off your tickets. That's
Berkshire Podcastfestival dot com. Promo code fall into the Sound

(01:30):
for twenty percent off your tickets. Okay, now onto the show.
This is a studio both and production identify. Finding the

(02:00):
Laplace cache changed this entire investigation for me in many ways,
if not in every way. It was a reminder that
even when it feels like we've done all that we
can do, there's still more to do. There's still more
to find, and it can be found. This thing can

(02:24):
go on forever, for better and worse. It was also
the sobering realization that were likely on the brink of
a cascade of new information. In the Keys case, the
FBI has around seventy other maps similar to the Laplace
map taken from Keys's computer, seventy maps that were so

(02:47):
zoomed in. The FBI didn't know what to make of
them or where to begin determining what they were of
until we showed up. But now that they know where
those maps might lead us. There's a renewed effort on
their end to find out where exactly those maps are
of we could be on the precipice of finding other

(03:09):
new caches, trophies even remains. But the Laplace Cash also
recontextualized a lot of the information we have in the
research we've done, particularly surrounding the final two months of
Israel Keys's freedom, and that happened largely in conjunction with

(03:29):
several new and very credible tips and the arrival of
some long awaited case files. Mark Julian Oldberry Junior first
came onto my radar after Christina came forward with her
encounter with a man she believes to be Israel Keys

(03:50):
in Vaidor, Texas. You probably remember my interview with Christina
from episode sixteen of season three.

Speaker 2 (03:59):
He was where I'm blue jeans, a red shirt, white
sneakers and like a brown well like a tan bomber
jacket or like a I don't know, I guess a
bomber jacket something like that. It was big, it was
like oversized for him, and uh, I immediately was freaked out.
But where I live, weird stuff happens all the time

(04:21):
a super high drug usage area. People do a lot
of speed around here, So a creepy guy running around
in a cemetery just you don't even bat an eyelash or.

Speaker 1 (04:30):
Something like that.

Speaker 2 (04:32):
And uh, I got up and immediately ran to my truck,
which I wasn't like far from my truck. I was
pretty close. I would have been able to get there
before him, you know. And when I got in the truck,
he just it was like he gave up, but he
was super angry, and uh so I turned the truck
on and started to leave out of there, but I

(04:53):
had to drive cast him to be able to you know,
leave the cemetery, and we locked eyes. I stared that
man down, obviously, like my life depended on it. And
I mean we stared at each other for a good
twenty or thirty seconds before I drove around him. And
as soon as I got past him, I definitely got

(05:14):
out there as fast as I could. And just you know,
was like, Wow, that was really weird and super creepy.

Speaker 1 (05:20):
Do you have a general sense or idea of what
date or what time frame that occurred in I.

Speaker 2 (05:26):
Mean, it was like early February. I know for sure
it was before the tenth of February, So between the
first and the tenth is when it was.

Speaker 1 (05:34):
Okay, and you said it was a nice day.

Speaker 3 (05:36):
Up, Yeah, it was nice day.

Speaker 2 (05:38):
I can't remember if it was like cold or anything,
but it was a it was a very sunny day.

Speaker 3 (05:43):
It was nice.

Speaker 1 (05:45):
Christina is certain that her encounter occurred on a day
between February first and tenth, but she strongly believes that
it was most likely on the second, third, fourth, or fifth.
She couldn't recall the weather, but it was clear out
that morning. And as you may recall, Mark Oldberry was
last seen on February second, when his uncle dropped him

(06:08):
off to go camping in Vydore, Texas, less than ten
miles south from the rest Lawn Cemetery where Christina's encounter happened.
And as you're probably well aware by now, Keys was
checked into a hotel in nearby Lafayette, Louisiana from February
second through the fifth, the exact time frame Christina believes

(06:29):
the encounter occurred, the exact time frame that Mark Oldberry disappeared,
and that's a hotel stay that we have a lot
of questions about. Was Sarah with him at the time,
At what point did he go to the New Orleans
Walmart on the third and how long did he stay
in that area? Was this when he was seen at

(06:50):
the Laplace cash site and what car was he driving
at the time. All of this is to say that
following my inner with Christina back in twenty twenty two,
we immediately filed a FOYA for Marx case files, and
then we waited and waited and waited for literal years.

(07:20):
At first we were told there were no files on
Mark's case, and then after some time and some pressing,
we were told that there were files and that they
would be in touch, and then they were never in
touch and didn't respond when we reached out. Finally, last month,
Jordan was able to get the files, whopping twenty three pages.

(07:48):
But if we've learned anything in this investigation, it's that
even a single paragraph can be as valuable as one
thousand pages of files, and that timing is everything. The
Mark Oldberry files are in and I think let's have

(08:08):
just a a high level discussion about our initial thoughts,
things that stood out to us, and then maybe too
so you can talk about your work, and then Kazzie
and I can present what we've been up to.

Speaker 4 (08:21):
Yeah, let me know. I mean I've found all that
stuff last night at like eleven, and then I was
up till one typing it up. And then when I
woke up this morning, I was like, did that really happen?

Speaker 5 (08:31):
I know, good shock girl.

Speaker 1 (08:34):
Yeah, I read it and I kind of like it.
Because Kas and I have been working on our own thing.
I couldn't even really take it all in. What generally
happens when a new file comes in is we each
review it separately. We spend time with it, make notes,
determine what stands out, do preliminary research, keep our ideas

(08:57):
to ourselves, and then, when some time is passed, we
bring our thoughts to the group. This way, no one
is influencing any one else with their initial thoughts, theories,
or ideas, and we each have time to fully flesh
out and research our own thoughts, theories, and ideas. What

(09:17):
was so fascinating about these case files, however, is that
we all glommed on to the same thing that single paragraph.
But that same thing took us all in very different directions,
and when we finally sat down to discuss the files,
each of our ideas coincided with everyone else's unique theories

(09:42):
and findings that all supported one another. I had a
better understanding of the timeline. Jordan followed up on some
evidence that took him somewhere that perfectly supported my perspective
on the timeline. Tooks found something inviter and developed a
theory that supported an idea that Kas and I had,

(10:02):
which also aligned with some thoughts that Joshua from Somewhere
in the Pines had, And then all of that came
together in support of something Kaz found that resulted in
multiple urgent text messages and late night phone calls last week.
We all had different ideas that, when put together, painted

(10:23):
a pretty clear picture of what happened during Keyes's February
trip to Texas. And it all started with the most
glaring information from Marc's case files, the recovery of his clothing,
backpack and fishing pole studio both and is sponsored by Betterhelp. Well,

(10:50):
it's Halloween season and all the spooks and scaries are
out that the scariest monsters for me are anxieties and
stressors like time management, family management, constant worrying about loved
ones and waterfowl. When I'm not worrying about what Israel
Keys was up to. At any given time, I'm generally
worrying about just about everything else, politics, friends, loved ones,

(11:13):
what I'm going to eat for lunch, and it's something
My Better Help therapist Jane has been helping me with
a lot lately, learning to let go of what I
can't control and effectively change or address what I can.
Therapy is a great way to face your fears and
find ways to overcome them. Trust me, I genuinely love
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(11:35):
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(11:57):
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off your first month. That's Better Help h e lp
dot com slash tcb. Prior to receiving the case files.

(12:22):
We had initially read in articles about Mark's disappearance that
his clothing and camping gear were found strewn about the
area immediately surrounding his campsite. Well, it turns out that's
not true in a very significant way. According to the

(12:45):
case files, on the morning of February twentieth, approximately eighteen
days after Mark was last seen, a man who owned
property near where Mark went camping, found Mark's wallet and
pants on a road on his life, just five hundred
yards from the main entry gate to his property, but

(13:05):
literally in the middle of the road. He alerted local
law enforcement, immediately, meeting them at a nearby corner store
at around seven am. He told them that the pants
and wallet were not there the last time he drove
that road, just a week and a half earlier, approximately
February tenth, eight days after Mark was last seen. When

(13:30):
the Orange County Sheriff's Office drove out to the man's property,
in addition to Mark's pants and wallet, they discovered his backpack,
some of his clothing, and his fishing rod and reel,
all along that same road and even closer to the
property's entry gate, just two hundred yards from the main road. Now,

(13:53):
the files also tell us that Mark wasn't reported missing
until February fifteenth, and that the following day, an initial
search of the area surrounding his campsite was conducted by
local PD, and during that search, they found no signs
of Mark. None of his clothing, his backpack, his fishing gear,

(14:13):
or his tent were recovered. It's unclear from the files
if they searched this man's property which was adjacent to
where Mark was dropped off the day that he went camping.
So we know that at the very least at some
point between either February tenth or February sixteenth, depending on
how broad local law enforcement search of the area was,

(14:36):
and February twentieth, when Mark's belongings were found, that all
of Mark's belongings except for his tent, appeared where they
hadn't been previously. And at this point, the Orange County
Sheriff's Office forwarded the case to their Criminal Investigation division

(14:56):
because even they thought that this was suspicious. So initially
the only thing that stood out to me that I
felt like new information was the appearance of his close
weeks later. Yeah, yeah, and I mean I think we

(15:16):
went over this maybe not. I don't even know where
I am right now, but it aligns almost perfectly with
Keys's return from the cruise.

Speaker 5 (15:27):
Yes, it does. That was the first thing. I think
that was my main takeaway. How eerie that is.

Speaker 1 (15:34):
Yeah, and then I was like trying to figure out
because I feel like there's this thing where we rely
on patterns that exist in cases that we believe are keys,
but don't necessarily exist in key in cases that we
know are keys, which is super frustrating. Yep, because evidence

(15:56):
has not reappeared in any of those cases. You know,
we have I think pretty close to proof that Keyes
returned to the farmhouse, but I think that was more
or less to clean up things than to place evidence.
So yeah, it's frustrating. As we've discussed previously, Shortly after

(16:19):
Mark was last seen, Keys, Sarah, and Kimberly embarked on
a five day Mexican cruise out of the port of
New Orleans. That cruz returned to New Orleans on February eleventh,
at which point Kim met up with a friend for
a road trip, and Keys and Sarah drove out to
Heide's place in Grand Prairie, Texas a suburb of Dallas

(16:40):
Fort Worth. It's during this time that Keyes leaves early
morning on the thirteenth, leaving behind a note for Heidi
saying that he's going to bury some guns, and then
he disappears for three days. And during these three days,
Jimmy Tidwell disappears from Mount Enterprise, Texas. Keys burns down
the Alito house and robs the Azel bank, and Keys

(17:03):
tells Heidi via text on multiple nights that his rental
car was stuck in the mud near Cleebourne, Texas. Keyes
misses his return flight home and has Heidi book him
and Sarah a new flight, departing out of Houston on
the evening of February seventeenth. And on February seventeenth, financial

(17:23):
records placed Keys at a Walmart in Jacksonville, Texas, way
east of Fort Worth, but only thirty eight miles from
Mount Enterprise. He buys a shovel, lube and air freshener. Then,
in a separate transaction, he buys a prepaid Walmart card
using cash. What adds a level of ick to this

(17:45):
is that the FBI pulled security footage from this little
shopping trip, and it turns out Sarah was with him
the whole time. That transaction was at eleven twenty nine am.
And we know that Keys was burying the large bills
from his bank robbery somewhere in that area between Jacksonville

(18:06):
and Houston, but east of Highway fifty nine following the
Walmart trip, and from there he hid the small bills
from the robbery in a plastic bag behind a tree
at a rest stop near the GWB Houston Airport. Well,
if he's traveling from Jacksonville to Houston east of Highway

(18:26):
fifty nine, then he's traveling right through Vyder, Texas in
the exact window that Mark's belongings reappeared. Any other initial thoughts, theories, questions, concerns.

Speaker 5 (18:46):
Maybe I missed it, But do we know what he brought?
He had a backpack, right, do we know if he
even brought more than one set of clothes? Like, does
anyone know what he brought?

Speaker 1 (18:56):
No, it sounded like he had a I had a
tent and a fishing pole and then a backpack.

Speaker 3 (19:03):
So I would assume if he had a tent, he
probably would have had a day or two s change
of clothes. But let's just be projecting what I would
do in that situation.

Speaker 4 (19:11):
On them, and the tent was never recovered, but the
fishing pole was. So that's interesting.

Speaker 5 (19:18):
Well, and it's because uncle seemed to go back a
few hours later and he wasn't there was he planning
on going very far? It didn't sound like it.

Speaker 1 (19:31):
The days leading up to Mark's disappearance were interesting. On
January nineteenth, approximately thirteen days prior to his disappearance, Mark
randomly showed up at the Orange County Sheriff's Department. He
was incoherent and nonsensically rambled to one of the detectives

(19:51):
for approximately forty minutes before leaving the station of his
own accord. It's unclear if Mark was having some sort
of mental health crisis or if he was on drugs.
According to his friends and family, Mark often used bath
salts recreationally, but on February first, Mark was taken into

(20:12):
custody as a threat to himself or others and admitted
into the Fanin Behavioral Hospital in nearby Beaumont for a
psychiatric evaluation. It's unclear what predicated this evaluation or whether
it was related to his incident at the Sheriff's office,
but according to an interview with Mark's dad. He was

(20:32):
held there for two days, and that leaves some ambiguity
around when exactly Mark was dropped off to go camping,
because according to almost everyone, Mark went camping on the second,
a day after he was admitted to Fannin, so we
don't know if this was a forty eight hour hold
or a too administrative day hold, which makes less sense

(20:55):
but would support Mark being released the following day. While
it seems likely that Mark went camping on the second,
there is a small possibility that he actually went on
the third, or that he was admitted to fan In
on the thirty first and not the first. But what
we do know is that the fan In Behavioral Hospital

(21:17):
felt that Mark was stable enough to be released two
days later, and when he was released, he went directly
to his uncle's house in North Vider, where he was
staying at the time. That house is just two miles
north of the rest Lawn Cemetery where Christina encountered keys
at around the same time. Upon arriving at his uncle's house,

(21:41):
Mark said that he wanted to go fishing and camping,
so his uncle drove him to old Mansfield Ferry Road
in South Vider, and dropped him off with his tent, backpack,
and fishing gear, reportedly at four PM on February second,
but Mark's uncle actually returned to the camp site later
that evening. A thunderstorm was developing along the Gulf coast,

(22:06):
and Mark's uncle became concerned about Mark camping alone and
not far from the golf so he returned to check
on Mark but couldn't find him. The report doesn't indicate
whether his uncle saw his camping gear or fishing equipment,
or any signs of Mark. It doesn't appear as though
he spent significant time looking for him, though, so Mark

(22:28):
could have already disappeared by that point or could have
been camping out of view from the road. But based
on historical weather data, this thunderstorm would align with Mark
being dropped off on the afternoon of February second, because
a storm developed that evening, and the weather that week
would also indicate that provided her memory is correct, Christina's

(22:52):
encounter could have only occurred on the morning of February
second or third, the only two days that week were
the sky eyes would have been clear between nine am
and now.

Speaker 5 (23:08):
I feel like so in this case, Cammy and Eugene
Jonathan Corey and Susie and Susie all have the appearance
that there was evidence left in the days following the disappearance.
Am I am, I right on that?

Speaker 1 (23:28):
Yeah, Barnes too, Oh yeah, that's right, that's shit.

Speaker 5 (23:33):
And like I don't remember Marbles details specifically, but weren't
there clothes left on a dock that may or may
not have been his? Yeah, it's weird that all of
these and these are some cases that I feel really
strong we all I think feel really really strongly about.
And again it's not definite, but what is it Cammy's

(23:58):
cousin's mom that she's I saw that guy who looked
like that guy who killed.

Speaker 4 (24:02):
His family Christian, and.

Speaker 5 (24:05):
Like, it's just so eerie because I see it in Keys,
and if.

Speaker 1 (24:09):
I recall correctly, she saw him right around the time
that they found that shoe.

Speaker 4 (24:13):
Yes, and that's what I think, asking questions like what's
going on kind of thing. This seemed kind of creeped.

Speaker 5 (24:20):
Her out, and like the Christian Longo thing is just
so specific. And I don't know about you, cause I
wouldn't have thought it looking at Keys, but I see
it now that it's been said.

Speaker 4 (24:29):
Yeah, especially looking back at pictures of what he looked
like in that time, like what Keys looked like in
that era. Yeah, knowing that Christian Longo was in the
news a lot at the time back then, and it
stood out to her so much that she's remembered it
all these years later. And if that was definitely Keys,
which I think we all lean toward, this was earlier

(24:49):
in his career, so to speak, so he may have
felt less nervous about returning to these scenes to see
what he could, you know, poke around leave some evidence.
I don't know if that was something he would have
been more nervous about later on, But that's another thing
I always think about with that case.

Speaker 3 (25:03):
Specifically, I think back to Bill Courrier's glasses to being
in the grass after the house has been demolished and
still in goodness, if they can get the prescription off
of the lenses and match them to him like that
doesn't seem to jibe with them being on him in
the basement. So either they fell off in the yard
and avoided all the all the demolition somehow, or they

(25:26):
replaced there after the fact.

Speaker 1 (25:27):
So I kind of want to pause on Mark and
talk about Texas and Louisiana those two trips and then
return to Mark, because I like, I think everyone's Mark
theories and everyone's Texas research actually kind of do coincide.
You know, Jordan and I and Kathleen Studter have been

(25:50):
looking into Stephenville, Texas. On his travel itinerary that Anchorage
PD pooled, he had what looked like coordinates are numbers
written down in the word Stephanville. So I've been trying
to find it. Jordan and Kathleen, I believe found exactly

(26:11):
the place that he had been researching. Do you want
to talk about that, Jordan, Yes.

Speaker 3 (26:16):
So it was driving me insane with those numbers, and
so we started looking into it, and I had, in
a roundabout way, figured out that the what looked like
coordinates were actually police scanner frequencies. We knew he had
just recently got a scanner. He used it in Anchorage
and he took it with the Texas and the scanner

(26:39):
frequencies were for the way Texas is spread out. A
lot of different departments use the same frequency, but they
do coincide with Azel PD and Azel County Sheriff's Department, respectively.
I think that's probably the most likely one he was
after with that, but there are also some areas outside
of Fort Worth. And then I was trying to figure

(27:01):
out there were there was numbers written down and it
was like a two digit number and then a one
digit number, then a three digit number, and I was
trying to figure out if it was the rating system
that they were referring to written down on his map
or whatever in the file. And I don't know much
about like numerology or things, but I know that Kathleen's

(27:23):
significant other mic is pretty pretty good with that stuff,
and so I just like threw it out there and said, hey,
have any idea what these numbers could mean? And he
pulled Stephenville up on the map, and they're the main
north south and east west roads in Stephenville, like the
main like county highways that intersect north south and east west.
And then the last one was nine ninety eight, which

(27:44):
is a like a kind of country road off of
that last road of Highway eight, and it circles around
to a place where there's a pull off for a
like a cattle gate off to some just open land
behind an apartment complex that has a bunch of red clay.
And he actually zoomed in on Google Earth and found

(28:06):
a photo that was taken March thirtieth and twenty twelve.
So just what two weeks after Keys's arrest, and there's
a bunch of deep ruts down in that clay. Looks
like the vehicle might I gotten stuck and pulled out
of there. So it's pretty interesting. Not saying that it's
a definite place, but it's it's pretty odd.

Speaker 5 (28:25):
I have a sighting in Stephenville.

Speaker 4 (28:28):
Yeah, a very twelve, twenty twelve.

Speaker 1 (28:34):
The coordinates Jordan is referring to here came from a
photo of a print out of Keys's cruise itinerary, which
was found during one of the initial searches of the
spur Lane House in Anchorage. On the bottom of that
print out, Keys had scrawled the following Stephenville in all caps,

(28:54):
followed by this series of numbers two eight one eight
nine eight eight one five five point three one zero
zero zero one five five point nine one zero zero
zero one five five. This print out is extra interesting

(29:15):
because at the exact moment that Keys pressed print on it,
he got an instant message to his Yahoo account. At
the very top of the page, there's an alert that
a particular screen name had just messaged him. We've spent
hours trying to find out who this screen name belongs to,
with no luck thus far. Everywhere our data mining takes

(29:37):
us ends up being a debt account or a ghost account.
The screen name is a very specific wrestling term, so
the two lines of thinking are someone who was into wrestling,
or perhaps a sex worker in Texas who Keys was
engaging with prior to going down there. We do know
that he was actively soliciting sex workers, either prior to

(29:59):
the tr or following his arrival, but all of this
is a conversation for another episode. Back to Stephenville. Stephenville
is a town of about twenty thousand people located seventy
miles southwest of Fort Worth. It's known as the cowboy
capital of the world. It's also a college town. Tarleton

(30:23):
State University's student body is actually larger than the town's population,
so if you're Keys, it's clearly a rural town with
lots of college kids. As far as we know, Stephenville
never comes up in any of the interviews or even
in the case files, other than this single print out

(30:45):
from the APD files, which is surprising because to Jordan's point.
In the Google Earth satellite photos taken March thirtieth of
twenty twelve, just two weeks after Keys was in, the
area is clearly disturbed and the ground there is red,

(31:07):
as in red mud was found all over Keys's rental car. However,
as we've previously covered, this could also be attributed to
the soil down in the Mount Enterprise area. What I
quickly realized was that those first numbers, the numbers identified
as roads surrounding Stephenville, they were actually directions two eighty

(31:31):
one south to eight west to farm Road nine eighty
eight takes you directly to the site twenty undisturbed acres
on the edge of town that to this day remain undisturbed.
And interestingly, we have a sighting placing Keys in Stephenville

(31:52):
at this time. Just over two years ago, a man
on Facebook book claimed that he may have crossed paths
with Keys outside of Stephenville, Texas, on or around February
twelfth of twenty twelve. He didn't go into details, and
he has not returned our messages. But as I mentioned earlier,

(32:14):
until now, there was nothing ever publicly connecting Keys to
this town. I started plotting all of these locations on
a Texas map for the empteenth time, this time with
a few new additions based on credible sightings, new information
and the Stephenville lead. And what I noticed for the

(32:38):
very first time is that it creates a giant circle.
Grand Prairie to Cleburne to Glen Rose to Stephenville to
Aledo to Azel and back to Grand Prairie is one
giant circle. And the more I looked at that circle,
the more obsessed I became. With two thoughts. One keys

(32:59):
is actual in tent in these areas and two keys
getting stuck in the mud and clee burn Let's start
with intent.

Speaker 6 (33:09):
So no other buried treasures you'd like to share with us? No,
not yet, because that means you don't want to give
up the bucket in Texas.

Speaker 7 (33:23):
No.

Speaker 8 (33:25):
But if I get close to where it's at.

Speaker 9 (33:27):
Which is there's not attracting device on.

Speaker 8 (33:34):
No, I have a pretty good memory. I could play
it pretty good in cash places.

Speaker 9 (33:41):
I have a good memory when I need to.

Speaker 10 (33:45):
If we came close to where one was, would you tell.

Speaker 8 (33:47):
Us I don't. I don't know what you mean.

Speaker 10 (33:52):
If we're able to tell you an area that we're
pretty sure there's one in would.

Speaker 9 (33:57):
You tell us, well, I assume you know, I've been
kind of all over the place when I do go places,
I don't know what you consider close like state.

Speaker 6 (34:10):
Coun No, no, no, I mean just deducting where things,
especially just in Texas, cause we have a little more
information on specifically where you were at in Texas to
through cell phone towers and that kind of thing.

Speaker 11 (34:23):
Like when you left to Dallas to drive to Houston.

Speaker 6 (34:27):
After the bank in Bazelle, you didn't drive forty five
straight to Houston and you had to do something with
that money from bazel because when you came back, yeah,
had the money with you, so you picked it up
down there, didn't have it in your suitcase, and get

(34:49):
all moldy and went.

Speaker 8 (34:51):
Oh that's that was just the small bills, So the twenties.

Speaker 6 (34:54):
Are still in a bucket there on that route.

Speaker 8 (34:58):
Small bills are a nuisance. People noticed when you pull
out a.

Speaker 6 (35:04):
Gouge outs mobile and you didn't leave it in the
Dallas area because you weren't planning on going back there.
You knew your mom was going to be going down
to Wells.

Speaker 9 (35:14):
Well, the money was moldy because it wasn't really I
didn't even know if I was going to go back
to get it. I just I just buried it and
figured if I make it back to get it.

Speaker 1 (35:29):
It's true Keyes likely wasn't going to return to Dallas.
Between his February trip and return in March, Heidi and
her daughters moved from Grand Prairie to Wells near Lufkin
to help set up the Church of Wells. It's a
move everyone was well aware of before Keyes even went
to Texas. Additionally, Keys had said on multiple occasions that

(35:51):
he didn't like Texas and specifically Dallas. So anything that
he wanted to keep or return to he was going
to cash close sort of the Texas Louisiana state line,
closer to Wells, a place he would undoubtedly return to,
or you know, as it turns out, in or around Laplace, Louisiana.

(36:14):
So we can assume all guns, trophies, and cash are
buried in and around Laplace and somewhere along Highway fifty
nine near Wells. So that begs the question, what was
Keys burying in the mud in Cleeburn and or Stephenville.

Speaker 10 (36:32):
What was the whole getting stuck in the mud thing
in Texas?

Speaker 9 (36:34):
Where was that Oh that was down south. I was
out looking at churches and houses.

Speaker 10 (36:40):
Was that before the bank was before the bank crowdry?

Speaker 9 (36:44):
Okay, Yeah, that whole thing kind of backfired on me
because I was thinking I had plenty of time to
go down South and do something. I just felt like
I needed to get away from everybody and clear my
head because I didn't really feel like I was in
I wasn't. I was having a hard time acting normal,

(37:07):
I guess, and so I just decided to get away
and go down And I had been thinking about doing
a bank robbery, so I was driving around, but the
more I drove around, I was thinking I wasn't gonna
do it because there were so many cameras in Texas
and there were so many police, and there were fences everywhere.

Speaker 5 (37:25):
You know.

Speaker 9 (37:25):
It just was a lot different than most of the
places I've done stuff.

Speaker 12 (37:30):
And but.

Speaker 9 (37:34):
Yeah, and then I missed the flight that I had scheduled.
And I could have I mean, I had clients who
probably would have put money in the account. But after that,
I mean, after I missed the flight, my mom she
loaned me some money or something, and I was like, well,
now I'm gonna do a bank robbery because I'm not

(37:55):
gonna call my clients and ask them for money.

Speaker 7 (37:57):
That's just a pain.

Speaker 11 (37:58):
So he gets stuck in the most of it. Yeah,
and so he had the pool yet.

Speaker 9 (38:06):
No, I actually got off by myself. But no, I
just the longer I stayed out of Dallas, the longer
I was down south, the more I was thinking I
wanted to do something else?

Speaker 3 (38:23):
Can I go back to the caress?

Speaker 1 (38:27):
So if he's actually stuck in the mud, and it's
before he robs the bank, and he never ends up
burying his guns on this trip, he'd he had most
of them in her house upon Keys's arrest, then the
only explanation for what he was doing out in the
mud near Cleeburn was burying a body, something he may

(38:47):
return to in the immediate future, but not months down
the road. A body is the one thing Keys won't
come back to once he's done victimizing it as to
where a trophy cash, a weapons cash, or a money
cash or things he'd need near him, things he'd need
to be able to get to quickly. And we do

(39:07):
believe that Keys did get stuck in the mud near Cleeburn.
He admits it in that clip and later tells the
FBI that he was stuck in the mud for a
few hours. We just don't believe that he got out
by himself.

Speaker 11 (39:21):
Didn't you actually get stuck in the most of it? Yeah,
and so he had the pool yet.

Speaker 9 (39:27):
No, I actually got off by myself. But but no,
I just the longer I stayed out of Dallas, the
longer I was down South.

Speaker 1 (39:37):
Even when he responds to the question, you can tell
he's fumbling a little bit. He stutters, he nervously laughs,
he changes the subject. And it turns out someone has
come forward claiming that he helped pull Israel Keys's car
out of the mud. In a small town just north

(39:57):
of Cleeburn. Two years ago, a woman posted the following online.
My husband is ninety nine point nine percent convinced that
he pulled him out of a ditch before he burnt

(40:19):
down the house in Aledo. We live in a rural
area and he is always helping out people. He stopped
for this guy and from the start was uncomfortable, even
made sure to have his pistol beside his driver's seat.
In one of Keyes's interviews, he mentions being in our area,
making it even more plausible. We were able to track

(40:41):
this woman down and found out that she lived in
a tiny town called Godly at the time of this encounter.
And Godly is the town directly north of Cleeburn and
directly en route from Grand Prairie to Glen Rose.

Speaker 10 (40:58):
One of the things that was on your phone, there's
a cemetery in Texas. Did you go to a cemetery
in Texas? What was this cemetery about one of glenros
Does that sound right?

Speaker 11 (41:16):
Yeah, I went to a few different cemeteries.

Speaker 10 (41:21):
What did you go to the cemetery for?

Speaker 7 (41:25):
That's a picture? What was on your phone?

Speaker 8 (41:31):
Is that on map quest or something that are?

Speaker 10 (41:33):
Yeah? I think you took a picture of your computer,
is what it looks like.

Speaker 12 (41:38):
We got care.

Speaker 1 (41:43):
I've reached out to both this woman and her husband
and have yet to hear back. We're hopeful either of
them can provide more information. But this lines up with
Keys's account of things, Heidi's account and phone records. Keys
has said that he got stuck in the mud before
he robbed the bank. He also said it was only

(42:04):
for a few hours. Heidi said that Keyes texted her
at approximately eight thirty pm on February thirteenth, The same
day that he left the note and disappeared, and in
that text he said that he was stuck in the
mud in the middle of nowhere, and she didn't hear
from him again until four thirty p m. The next day,
despite sending multiple replies offering to come help him, and

(42:29):
phone records indicate that when Keyes first texted Heidie about
being stuck in the mud, the first time he turned
on his phone after it had been off all day,
his phone pinged to off a clee Burn cell tower.
So if Keyes was actually stuck in the mud, and
heide already knew or at least thought he was out
burying guns, why would he refuse her help? Probably for

(42:52):
the same reason he needed to buy air freshener before
he dropped the rental car off because there was a
body in it. Keyes said that he got stuck in
the mud before he went to Glen Rose, Azel or
Aledo on that trip, and it's likely that it happened
before Stephenville because that's directly west of Glen Rose. He
also said that getting stuck in the mud screwed up

(43:14):
his plans. But if he left the house in Grand
Prairie at six a m. And got stuck in the
mud at eight thirty pm. Where was he for those
ten and a half hours before Cleeburn? Well, it takes
nine hours and fifty five minutes to drive from Grand
Prairie to Viidor to Gogley, where Keys most likely got

(43:40):
stuck in the mud, and Caz, Joshua, and I have
all thought it was most likely that had Keys been
involved in Mark Oldberry's disappearance, he would have returned to
him or for him after his cruise, which leads us
to something to her independently found Invitorox. Why don't we

(44:04):
start with what you've been working on?

Speaker 4 (44:08):
Sure? So after reading the old Berry file, something said
to me, let me just I know. Oh wait, is
it Viterer or Viader? Now I'm kinchingt Vider, So let
me see what's going on in Vider, Texas if anything
else was going on in February twenty twelve. And as
soon as I put that in, it came up with
there was this local artist who was an eccentric guy.

(44:29):
His name is Charlie Stagg, and he lived in the
area for years, and he had a thirteen acre property
in the woods, and he had built this really unique home.
He was a sculpture artist as well, So it's like
built out of bottles and there was a dome to it,
and he would just add to it. And he had
a lot of fans who would randomly just show up
on his property and ask for a tour. And he

(44:52):
had some you know, friends in the area. But he
tried to keep off the grid a bit, and he
according to what came up in the new was on
February twentieth, twenty twelve, he died after suffering burns. Now,
all the media reports I could find say that he
fell into a fire pit or a burn pit on
his property. One report even said that they believe he

(45:16):
like when unconscious and then fell into this burn pit.
He was in the hospital for several days and then
he succumbed to his injuries. One of his friends posted
on one of the news articles that that isn't true,
that he actually just burned himself on his wood stove,
and he was already kind of an ailing health before
this happened, but this was just kind of like the

(45:37):
final thing that you know, fortunately took him. But it's
not clear because well that's what she says. But then
there's all this stuff about you know in the news
that it's more specific than that, and if you go
to a couple days before February twentieth, that could put
you anywhere from you know, February fifteenth, sixteen, seventeen, eighteen, nineteenth,

(45:59):
even where this accident may have happened. So it got
me thinking about this property. I was able to find
it through some Reddit, YouTube, and Google maps sleuthing to
locate the property, and it is very rural. It's about
a mile off the road to get to it through
the woods, and then there's several outbuildings on the property.

(46:19):
The other interesting piece of this is that in August
two thousand and six, there was a fire on the
property that destroyed one of the mean buildings in his studio,
and he always believed it was arson. The police said
that they know it was inconclusive, they couldn't rule one
way or the other. But because of that fire, he
was rebuilding and he was actually living in a trailer

(46:39):
on the property. So I have a bunch of questions
that I put in this document. I wrote up some
things to consider. Some of his friends are pretty active
online still, so we could put them on our outreach
list and see if they could give us some more
details that could either make this worth looking into more,
or maybe it'll rule it out right away if they say, oh, no,
you know, he had a friend on the property. You

(47:01):
saw him fall, that's why he was able to get
to the hospital. Or if someone says, no, we found
him like that when we want to check on him,
it could lend more credence to potentially somehow Keys potentially
being involved in this. But what seemed interesting to me
too is just that his compound. This is from one
of the articles. His compound, which at the time of
his death consisted of several outbuildings and a bottle studded

(47:24):
cone like domicil about thirty feet in diameter and twenty
feet tall, sat about a mile from the nearest road,
and some people online say the best way to get
to it is to park in the Masonic Lodge on
Main Street. And if you look up where that lodge
is versus where Mansfield Ferry Road, which is where Oldberry's
uncle dropped him off, it's only like three minutes away,

(47:46):
right up the street. So it just really stood out
to me as like, you know, if this was definitely
Keys with Mark Julian Oldberry and he was looking in
this area for places he could take someone. Could this
have been potentially the property if he had scoped it out,
And if Charlie stagged the artist was in ailing health,
maybe he wasn't even there in February, could have been

(48:07):
in a friend's house or at the hospital, and Keys
may have just thought this was an abandoned property where
he could do whatever he wanted. So that's sort of
my thinking to that, and I put some questions in
the document just you know, if we get a chance
to talk to Mark's sister again, maybe she could shed
some light from a locals perspective on this place and
was it somewhere Mark would have went, you know what
her thoughts are on that.

Speaker 1 (48:29):
Yeah, it's I want to spend more time with it,
but I cannot get over that there's this tiny town
in the middle of nowhere, and over the course of
a week and a half, essentially a woman is attacked
in a cemetery, a man disappears, a man mysteriously dies,

(48:49):
and then the man who disappeared clothing reappears in the
area he disappeared from a week and a half later. Like, yeah,
it's all very strange, especially considered these all took place
within the course of a three mile area.

Speaker 4 (49:03):
Point about the clothing being found, that was around the
time that this artist would have had his accident. So
that's what stood out to me too, that kind of
timeline lined up. Yeah, and he could all just be
all the goings on of this town. Like you look
at you know, even any of the towns we live in.
I'm sure there's all sorts of wild stuff happening every week,

(49:24):
But could you know at keys was in certain places
doing things? So I think it's you know, we should
look into it more if we could get some of
these questions answered, because it did seem like a good
place that you could go and get away with some stuff.
If you know, no one's on that property.

Speaker 1 (49:41):
And you think he's an ailing eccentric man, like even
if he was there, the house probably looks closer to
abandoned than lived in.

Speaker 4 (49:51):
Yeah, and I think to that point, it's it looked
like that for years, and I mean now it's even
in more disrepair. But also what does that but how
many outbuilds things are on this property? Are they spread out?
You know? Was his trailer that he lived in after
the fire close to the main structure, Like all these
things come up, and I know we were just talking
earlier about like we can't connect all these cases we

(50:13):
think might be Keys, but it does remind me of
like John Hanneman and some of those other cases we've
looked at where it's like someone who's living a reclusive
lifestyle could have a potential connection to Keys.

Speaker 1 (50:25):
And what's interesting is like I'm assuming he did. We
don't know for sure. We kind of do with the farmhouse,
like if Keys is looking at or I guess map
quest and sees this, he's probably going to do research
on the address and pretty quickly find out that the
man who owns it is an elderly recluse.

Speaker 4 (50:46):
Well to that point, there are a ton of articles
written about this gentleman, like when he was alive as well,
Like there's things from two thousand and seven. There's things
about his fire, him talking about the fire, talking about
the fans who would just randomly show up for a tour.
So you know, it would have been easy if you
were looking for stuff to do in that area, that

(51:06):
would certainly come up.

Speaker 1 (51:07):
So here's this recluse who lives in the middle of nowhere,
who like welcomes strangers into his home.

Speaker 4 (51:14):
Yes, exactly, yep. Yeah, That's why when I was reading
this last night, I was like, could this is this real? Like,
I don't know. It was just very strange to me
that this all happened. And I would love to be
able to like talk to some of his friends and
just like they could really quickly with some of their
information either rule this more in or rule it out.
But and even if they rule out the part with

(51:37):
this gentleman's accident, this property still could have been something that,
you know, something could have happened on.

Speaker 1 (51:47):
That property is located six miles north from where Mark
was last seen, and to Ticker's point, it's not dissimilar
from John Hanneman's or Jimmy Tidwells, a remote off the
be in path property and disrepair in an area that
we can place keys, where someone either disappeared or mysteriously died,

(52:08):
and in two cases where fire was involved. And it
would be an easy location to take Mark and possibly
leave him until Keysa's return from the cruise, either completely
or partially abandoned in the woods with multiple outbuildings if
we put keys invited and everywhere else he comes up

(52:31):
in sightings or tips everything he says everything. The FBI
believes that pretty precisely makes up for all the lost time.
So we started molling all this over, looking for holes
or issues and looking into other details about this time frame,
Keysa's mysterious broken windshield, other possible sightings we may have missed,

(52:53):
more information on Charlie Stagg, laplace, Jane and John does
in Texas and Louisiana, and accounting for Keysa's rental car mileage,
and the more we started to pour over all of
these details, all of this information new and old, much

(53:14):
like our independent research on Mark Oldberry, it all started
to connect. And that's when I left a YouTube after
show to find multiple frantic text messages and missed calls
from Kaz. I need you to look at something when

(53:39):
you are done with the live show. Seriously, you have
to call me after the live show. I may have
found something. I don't want to get my hopes up,
but I need your input or I won't be able
to sleep tonight. You can record me so we have
something to refer back to. If this turns out to
be something.

Speaker 7 (54:00):
Mm hmmm, call me.

Speaker 1 (54:04):
I think I found him.

Speaker 7 (54:23):
Outside waiting approach there.

Speaker 8 (54:30):
Visions of past and almost riding up to your words,
bold over.

Speaker 13 (54:43):
On the horrid shoulder, passing lights along, exposures moment's circles.

Speaker 8 (54:56):
Don't say it feels like just pass still in saver
and faith, I's a good feel fun last suits.

Speaker 12 (55:15):
Well in the mind's quotes, Don't know what I missed
the most, blast.

Speaker 8 (55:23):
Or silence.

Speaker 7 (55:28):
On from my.

Speaker 12 (55:31):
I'll be right on their own siles, but from TWI
life I might leave you don't know say feel as
I belive, just passes still.

Speaker 1 (55:51):
This episode was written, researched, edited, and produced by Me
Your Host Josh Hallmark, with additional research by Jordan Taylor,
kaz And Tooker, and research assistants by Kim Kay and
Shana Wilensky. This episode featured Shana Wilenski, Jordan Taylor, and
Michelle Tooker. The episode was made possible by the following
Patreon producers Amelia Hancock, Amy Basil and Marie Cash andet

(56:15):
l ash Fish, Becky c Benjamin Choppafong, Casey Jensen Richardson,
Christina Sassoon, Dale Axton, Drew Ipond, Heather Horton, Whedon, Jillian Natale,
Kathleen Studter, Kendall, C Lna Holiday, Lauren f Linley, tuscoff
Manolas Bulicus, Nicole and Dennis Henry, Nicole Gusman, Pink S C.
Shelley Brewer, Sherry D. Trista, Tuesday Woodworth, Zach Ignattowitz, Warren,

(56:37):
Beth McNally, John Comery, Jordan M, Jordan Taylor, Sarah C,
Shawna Harden, Spooky Express, and Lydia Fiedler. Thank you to
Studio both Anne's newest Patreon supporters, OLIVERA, g, Rachel r
Cynthia w Raya, s Amanda Kay, Amanda b Lucy l Jesseme,
j Brandy dominic Ka, Doctor Motown, Jacob G. Austin, s,

(56:57):
Marissa L and Zach. To support the investigation and get
AD free episodes, go to Patreon dot com slash Studio
both And. This episode featured music by Radical Face, Sarah
A Quartos, Yotamagne Saraghe Cheramisanov and William Hellfire with featured
music by Morgan Harper.

Speaker 7 (57:18):
Jones, stopt.

Speaker 8 (57:38):
Chiety, Chin cho Chie Challenge.

Speaker 12 (57:55):
Do try to reach, trying to reach, trying to reach
for out of any trees.

Speaker 8 (58:07):
It's a thing read people trying to reach trying to
reach body can't reach. You don't knows me.

Speaker 13 (58:19):
Feels like a light just passes slowly in the staff
about the mof I forgot to feel for you.

Speaker 8 (58:33):
Then I can't breathe. You will never be talk for
stopping to you. Caught up in a bad change.

Speaker 12 (58:43):
I'm trying to reach foe who's trying to reach I'm
trying to reach for