November 14, 2024 • 47 mins
Josh receives an email.
This episode was written, researched, edited, and produced by Josh Hallmark.
This episode featured: Shana Wilensky, Michelle Tooker, Jordan Taylor, and Joshua and Dakota from Somewhere in the Pines.
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Trova Trip to Chile & Argentina
Music by: William Hellfire, Radical Face, Whithe, Sergey Cheremisinov.
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Patreon producers: Amelia Hancock, Amy Basil, Annemarie Cash, Annette L, Asch Fish, Becky C, Benjamin Cioppa-Fong, Casey Jensen-Richardson, Christina Sisson, Dale Akstin, Drew Vipond, Heather Horton-Whedon, Jillian Natale, Kathleen Studer, Kendall C, Lana Halladay, Lauren F, Lynnlie Tuschoff, Manolis Boukolus, Nicole and Dennis Henry, Nicole Guzman, Pink, SC, Shelly Brewer, Sherri D, Trista, Tuesdi Woodworth, Zack Ignatowicz Warren, Beth McNally, John Comrie, Jordan M, Jordan Taylor, Michael Beers, Sara Cee, Shawna Hardin, Spooky Express, and Lydia Fiedler.
Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/true-crime-bullsh--3588169/support.
This episode was written, researched, edited, and produced by Josh Hallmark.
This episode featured: Shana Wilensky, Michelle Tooker, Jordan Taylor, and Joshua and Dakota from Somewhere in the Pines.
This is a Studio BOTH/AND production:
www.truecrimebullshit.com / bothand.fyi
For an ad-free experience: www.patreon.com/studiobothand
YouTube After Show
Trova Trip to Chile & Argentina
Music by: William Hellfire, Radical Face, Whithe, Sergey Cheremisinov.
Featured song by: Kashka
Patreon producers: Amelia Hancock, Amy Basil, Annemarie Cash, Annette L, Asch Fish, Becky C, Benjamin Cioppa-Fong, Casey Jensen-Richardson, Christina Sisson, Dale Akstin, Drew Vipond, Heather Horton-Whedon, Jillian Natale, Kathleen Studer, Kendall C, Lana Halladay, Lauren F, Lynnlie Tuschoff, Manolis Boukolus, Nicole and Dennis Henry, Nicole Guzman, Pink, SC, Shelly Brewer, Sherri D, Trista, Tuesdi Woodworth, Zack Ignatowicz Warren, Beth McNally, John Comrie, Jordan M, Jordan Taylor, Michael Beers, Sara Cee, Shawna Hardin, Spooky Express, and Lydia Fiedler.
Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/true-crime-bullsh--3588169/support.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Join me in the Researchers Thursday after the show at
nine p m. Eastern on YouTube for a live stream
discussion about the episode. The link to the live stream
is in the show notes. And there's only a handful
of tickets left to join me Charlie from Crime Lines
and Laney from True Crime Cases with Laney on our
South American Wine tasting trip. Travel with us from February
(00:22):
twenty seventh through March fifth from Santiago, Chile to Mendoza,
Argentina for wine tasting, sightseeing and true crime conversations. We'll
get out of the country, sip Malbeck in the South
American summer and talk Israel Keys. Learn more or book
your trip by clicking the Trova trip link in the
show notes. This is a studio both and production. This
(01:03):
past September, an FBI liaison reached out as part of
an ongoing communication to schedule an interview between me and
Special Agent Ted Holla. The liaison requested both the list
of proposed topics for our interview as well as preliminary
written questions. Putting that list together was one of the
most intimidating projects in six years full of intimidating projects.
(01:27):
In this podcast. I wanted to be strategic but earnest,
cooperative but autonomous, and I wanted to prove that I
was worth their time while also getting to the heart
of what I thought was the most important fuel for
my investigation into Keys. When my response email was finally sent,
(01:48):
there were nineteen discussion topics and fifty four questions. Of course,
in a perfect less strategic world, there could never be enough.
I pressed send on the email and waited and waited
and waited. As more and more weeks passed, I told
(02:10):
myself that the longer it took for them to respond,
the better they were likely going over my questions and theories.
They were combing through their research and information. They were
reaching out to various field agents. They were taking my
questions seriously and responding as such. But my gut told
me that they didn't take me seriously, that they thought
(02:33):
I was some hack. And as more and more time passed,
I resigned myself to just keep moving along in my investigation,
that the answers might never come, or if they did come,
they might not be meaningful.
Speaker 2 (02:58):
This is true grind bullshit. I'm your host, Josh Hallmark,
and this is a serialized story of Israel Keys.
Speaker 1 (03:17):
Last week, the FBI liaison responded, ready to schedule my
meeting with Essay Haula and with a document responses to
a majority of my questions thirty six answers about Israel Keys.
Those answers varied from short and frustrating, to canned and rehearsed,
(03:41):
to candid and thoughtful. There is new information about keys
as victims, new timeline items that ruled out some high
profile potential Keys victims, new information about the letter confiscated
from his cell. There were answers that blew my mind,
answers that frustrated me, and many answers that I just
(04:02):
wasn't quite satisfied with. But most of all, I was
excited and invigorated. The FBI, after ten years of investigating Keys,
was finally sharing information with us, new information, information the
(04:22):
public had never heard before. And so I called up
the teams, both the True Crime Bullshit Research Team and
Josh and Dakota from Somewhere in the Pines, and we
talked through all of those thirty six answers and the
questions the FBI didn't answer, and what their silence might mean.
(04:48):
There are some answers that I think both kas and
I were not entirely satisfied with that. They seemed to
be taking keys at his word on stuffed that I
don't think any of us are inclined to do so.
There are going to be some frustrating answers, but there's
also a ton of new information and we are going
(05:08):
to be able to rule out a handful of very
high profile potential victims.
Speaker 3 (05:15):
That's so exciting. I love being given like a firm
yes or no.
Speaker 1 (05:20):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (05:22):
I don't like wasting my time if somebody has the answers.
Speaker 1 (05:25):
Well, and I also like there are some firm yeses
and nos, but there are also some ambiguous answers that
are going to be frustrating. Okay, so yeah, just it's
a it's a mixed bag. And with that, are you
guys ready?
Speaker 4 (05:42):
I am ready.
Speaker 5 (05:44):
I've been waiting anxiously, so already.
Speaker 1 (05:49):
We started with the Laplace encounter in cash. I asked
the FBI if they had determined the exact location of
that cash, the exact location of the encount, and whether
law enforcements still had the cash or at minimum photos
and a catalog of its contents. Their response was no.
(06:12):
All local jurisdictions that cover this area were contacted, and
no reports, photos, or records could be found regarding the
buckets or the call to police regarding them. Two of
the individuals who were allegedly with the witness at the
time of this discovery are now deceased. A third individual,
who the witness only had a first name for, we've
(06:33):
been unable to further identify or contact for corroboration. Now,
it's important to note that depending on where the items
from the cash and the cash itself were taken and stored,
there could be several different reasons for this that only
local law enforcement could tell us. There's a possibility that
(06:54):
because it's a very hurricane prone area that there could
have been places where evidence was stored that were breached
and destroyed. It could also have been destroyed as a
matter of force if it wasn't connected to any ongoing case,
could have been destroyed or cleared from evidence rooms, which
seems the more likely scenario. As you'll recall, the guy
(07:16):
who found the cash basically had to beg multiple agencies
to take him seriously, so there is a high likelihood
that this particular evidence may not exist anymore.
Speaker 6 (07:28):
Interesting.
Speaker 1 (07:30):
That's frustrating, Yeah, yeah, It's frustrating, but there's you know,
the outcome is still the same, Like, there's no way
this was not Keys, because there was evidence of his
on his computer. So there's no way that this guy
makes up this story and it just happens to perfectly
correspond with items found on Keys's computer. Agreed, And while
(07:56):
that was incredibly disappointing, there was some good news guarding
Louisiana because I also asked if the FBI had a
time stamp for Keys's New Orleans Walmart transaction on February third,
either the day of or the day after Mark Oldberry
most likely disappeared, and the day that Christina most likely
had her cemetery encounter. And it turns out the FBI does.
(08:22):
Keys made that transaction at nine to fifty one PM
Central time. This means that Keys would have had ample
time to encounter both Oldberry and Christina and then leave
the state and make it to New Orleans by nine
fifty one PM. And this also aligns perfectly with the
Texas timeline we've been building for Keys. Okay, moving on.
(08:50):
This is frustrating and I have a hard time believing it.
Asked about the army, do we know where and when
Keys took the GED test and received his Social Security
card while prepping for the army. No, do you have
information about where Keys was stationed and when an Army timeline?
We do not have a timeline, but based on interviews
and his own statements, we know that he spent time
(09:12):
in Panama in ninety nine, Egypt from approximately jan to
June two thousand and in Saudi Arabia, and in Israel
in two thousand to two thousand and one. Do you
have Keys' leave and time off records from the Army.
Speaker 3 (09:25):
No, So that's frustrating. But I don't know that we
knew about Panama.
Speaker 1 (09:29):
We did that Efrin guy, which is actually awesome because
now it corroborates Ephrin. So Efrin had said Panama, Okay, awesome,
that was for like a jungle warfare school, right, yeah,
I think so.
Speaker 7 (09:42):
I think they did it down there.
Speaker 4 (09:44):
Then that was a popular infantry school around that time.
Speaker 1 (09:51):
Okay, Next up, I asked about Calville. Calville PDI has
told me they don't believe Keys was responsible for the
murders of Cassie and Marlene Emerson. Has he been into
and or ruled out for this? Key stated that his
first homicide occurred after he got out of the army
July two thousand and one and before the birth of
his daughter October two thousand and one. He was also
(10:11):
asked about this case during his ten thirty, twenty twelve interview.
We have no information or evidence indicating that he had
any involvement in this case, and we defer to the
local agency for any further questions. Then I asked the
same thing about Harris see answer above regarding the year
of his first homicide.
Speaker 5 (10:29):
Okay, I mean in there then that would rule him
out with Susie, which I don't buy.
Speaker 8 (10:34):
A good point.
Speaker 1 (10:36):
Well, I just like, why are you believing a serial
killer who doesn't want you to find his victims when
he's said, like, I wonder if.
Speaker 3 (10:43):
Like they're just so desperate for parameters in the search
that they'll just take any old parameter he gave them.
Speaker 5 (10:50):
Yeah, it's a good.
Speaker 1 (10:51):
Point, or there's just something they know that we don't know.
But I just I cannot comprehend why they are so
firm on this when everything he has said seems to
indicate otherwise.
Speaker 3 (11:01):
How could they possibly now though, Like, I mean, what
could they know that could change that like he said it.
Speaker 5 (11:09):
Yeah, well maybe they have information from that jurisdiction about
who the most likely killer is. That's the only other
thing I could think of.
Speaker 1 (11:18):
Yeah, and that's where Dakota and I landed. Like, I
will totally buy he's not involved in either of those crimes,
but I do not buy that he did not kill
anyone until July two thousand and one.
Speaker 8 (11:29):
Yeah, I agree.
Speaker 7 (11:30):
I think that we've gone over this with Halla, this
specific timeline of his first murder, and I think that
I don't necessarily agree with, you know me personally, I
don't necessarily agree with that that his first murder was
after the military. And the main reason is because when
(11:53):
they ask him, what's the longest you went between murders,
he said, well, when I was in the military, that
right there, you know. I so, yeah, I don't, I
don't know, but I think it's I think it's okay to,
you know, to disagree with the FBI, especially if they're
just basing their you know, their facts on what Key said.
Speaker 1 (12:18):
Oh for sure. And I you know, and again like
they've never met Key, so they can only do so much.
But Catherine Ramslin and Chris Kunkle both said there's no
way that he is like working himself to kill, priming
to kill, does this thing with the to Shoots girl,
and then waits three years to kill again or to
try to kill again. They're just there's no fucking way.
Speaker 7 (12:37):
Right, right, especially since he showed so much regret in
the fact that he let her live.
Speaker 4 (12:42):
Yeah, so I disagree. Uh, they didn't ask him if
how long could you go between murders? I think that
was maybe suggested, but he already call out the to
Shoots rape as something very important to him and very
big for him, a big, a big step in his progression,
I guess. So I think that's that's what they are
referring to, is that him rapt tempting or raping the
(13:05):
girl into Shoots was his first attempt into that the
more extreme side of his personality, and that's why they
I think that's what they are alluding to. And they
aren't like after talking to the consult like, I'm totally
fine with the moving on from Julia Harris just based
(13:25):
on their opinion. Yeah, I don't know, Like, I totally
understand the idea that he's there. It's possible, and I'm
not saying that there's no way it happened. But I
think I tend to agree with them on that now
that after talking with them and talking with the consults,
it just it makes a lot more sense. And Yeah,
(13:46):
in my opinion, I'm totally comfortable with that answer, I
guess is what I'm trying to say.
Speaker 1 (13:51):
Yeah, I mean, I am, and I'm not I am
in that specific regard. I have never really thought Harris
was a potential victim, and so I agree that, yeah,
he probably wasn't killing anyone prior to the dishoots girl.
But where I, I guess, differ from you, as I
do believe there was a murder between the Toshoots and
(14:11):
the army.
Speaker 7 (14:12):
Yeah, I mean, until until we can put a put
a name to it or a you know, an actual event,
then you know, there's not much we can say one
way or the other. But I don't think that it's
the best practice to just trust Keys at his word totally.
Speaker 1 (14:27):
Yeah, I guess that's my like, I don't know if
disappointments the right word. I guess surprise is that you know,
that's how they're operating, is that Keys is telling the
whole truth and nothing about the truth.
Speaker 7 (14:38):
Right, But they also have a lot more information than
we do to be able to fact check those things,
so you know, I do. I go back and forth too,
Like I agree with Joshua that, you know, like we
need to trust the FBI, but I also agree that
let's not trust keys right exactly.
Speaker 1 (14:56):
Next up, I asked about Beaver Lake and Lake Ozette.
There are multiple sightings and interviews placing Keys repeatedly on
these lakes. Is there any indication Keys used them in
as crimes. We have no direct information from Keys that
either of these lakes were involved in his crimes. However,
we do know that he frequented these lakes and recognized
that Lake Ozette's remote setting would make sense for an
(15:17):
abduction and or body disposal location. We recently had the
National Park Service pool all their historical records for deaths
and or missing persons in or around Lake Ozette. We
were especially interested in any unattended drownings or deaths. No
cases were identified which we felt needed additional follow up.
And then I said have they been searched? And I
said no. One without specific information or new evidence to
(15:40):
help narrow down a specific area, we are not able
to justify the cost or manpower for such a search.
Speaker 7 (15:46):
Yeah, this is something that I actually reached out to
Jordan about. But have you guys looked into getting information
from like the state parks, you know, just incident reports
or anything like that.
Speaker 1 (15:58):
I actually have every incident report from Olympic from I
think like eighty eight until two thousand and six. I think,
I want to say, I have not gone through them
all yet. It's just one of those piles of like
things I need to get to at some point. But yeah,
we have all of them.
Speaker 4 (16:16):
Yeah, and j as West Coast? Is that all of
Washington or just the Olympic.
Speaker 1 (16:21):
Peninsula just Olympic National Park? Okay, studio both and is
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(16:42):
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That's Better Help h e l P dot com slash
tcb next and this I found to be pretty interesting.
(18:12):
I asked about dating apps and online in contact, so
I started with Craigslist. There hasn't been confirmed Keys use
Craigslist to engage our VET potential victims. We know that
Keys used apps like Craigslist for dates and solicitation. We
have no information that Keys had any connection online or
otherwise to his victims prior to their victimization. We know
(18:36):
that he frequently dated using match dot com. Keys indicated
to investigators that he would never target any of the
individuals that he met through apps or dating sites, as
he understood that this could possibly lead law enforcement to him.
Then I asked about Adult friend Finder, Yes he did
use this app. I asked about Grinder, Yes he did
use this app. I asked about online connections between Bill Courier.
(18:59):
They said, we looked into this and none were found.
Oh pardon good questions. Yeah, Key's life comments on online
articles about Samantha Koenig and admitted to doing so with
other victims. Has this been explored not beyond Samantha Koenig,
And we do not know if ESSEXPD ever investigated this
with the Couriers.
Speaker 7 (19:19):
It seems like this would be something that they I mean,
as they're mining his computers and his hard drives, that
some of this, you know, that's where they found the maps.
Maybe some of them come up there, you know, all
his user names and stuff.
Speaker 1 (19:32):
Or even IP addresses. I mean, I know it's not
an exact science like it would be with email or
user names, but you know, what are the odds that
someone who shares an IP address with Keys is commenting
on missing persons cases?
Speaker 2 (19:45):
Right?
Speaker 8 (19:45):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (19:48):
Next up is Knea Bay. According to the October thirtieth interview,
it was determined that Keys owned a second motor boat
while living in Knia Bay. Was this boat ever located No.
Keys stated that this particular boat needs did too much work,
so he scrapped the.
Speaker 8 (20:01):
Project, so they trusted him.
Speaker 2 (20:04):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (20:05):
The stuff that I just can't wrap my head around,
the blind trust that they selectively put into him.
Speaker 3 (20:13):
Yeah, it's weird, But I also think they just desperately
needed parameters for this, Like there's so many possibilities that
they had to focus somehow.
Speaker 1 (20:25):
This is where Kaz jumped in to say, it goes
back to something I've been saying from the very beginning.
I think that when Keys was being questioned, the questions
were not being thought through, The follow up was not
being done, and the people who were coming up with
the questions and doing the questioning were not particularly good interviewers.
(20:46):
I think it's as simple as that. As I'm going
through this and I'm listening, I keep thinking, Okay, the
boat was too much work, and you scrapped the project.
What do you mean by scrapped the project? Did you
get rid of the boat? Was the boat still on
your property? Did you ever go back and work on
the boat again?
Speaker 8 (21:06):
Where was it?
Speaker 1 (21:07):
Did you sell it to somebody? Did you give it away?
Did you throw it out?
Speaker 2 (21:12):
These are the.
Speaker 1 (21:12):
Answers to the questions that you want, because that's what
an attorney is going to ask you on cross examination.
That's the follow up that you need to have. So
he scrapped the project and then you just leave it there.
That can mean a million different things. I think that
the investigators were replacing the follow up questions with what
they inherently assumed would be the answers. All right, moving
(21:38):
right along. Cash is In an unsealed interview with Keys,
he more openly discussed the Green River. Cash did he
give any clarity on where approximately it is located? Has
Flaming Gorge been searched. No cash searches have ever been
conducted by the FBI in Wyoming, which is wild to me.
Speaker 3 (21:56):
Yeah, I guess would they know where to go? Well,
I mean Flaming Gorge, but would they know any specific
somewhere to go?
Speaker 1 (22:03):
No, And it's a massive lake, Like I drove just
one half of it, and it's there's so many places
you could have hidden it.
Speaker 6 (22:10):
They weren't going chase.
Speaker 1 (22:12):
No soup kitchen, shelters and roommates. Multiple sightings of keys
at homeless shelters and soup kitchens. Has this been explored?
We have received no credible tips of keys being at
homeless shelters or soup kitchens. The credible from there Johnstown,
New York has multiple sightings and a missing person case
(22:33):
that matches m oh Kelly Sue Akernek nine thirty, two
thousand and eight. Financial records placed keys in Alaska on
nine thirty, two thousand and eight.
Speaker 5 (22:41):
That's the that's probably that invoice that we found on
that website. But like we said, and Conkle said, it
could have just been fabricated.
Speaker 1 (22:49):
So well, and that's what I would love to know,
is like, is that it or are there additional financial records?
Speaker 5 (22:56):
Yeah, that couldn't that are definitively Keys and not like,
oh he gave his card to someone or you know
it was Kim making a purchase.
Speaker 1 (23:03):
Online or what And what are the time stamps? Because like,
he could feasibly at six am made a transaction and
anchorage and been in Johnstown by ten pm when she
got off her shift. Olympia, Washington has a sighting and
a missing person case that matches m Jonathan Corey won
thirty two thousand and two. We are unaware of a
(23:25):
sighting of Keys in relation to this case and have
no evidence that places him in or near Olympia, Washington
during this period, which is frustrating to me because we
have court records that have him in Olympia during that period.
It's interesting multiple reports of Keys living with college students
for one to three weeks at a time then disappearing.
Has this been explored? We're unaware of these reports, yeah.
Speaker 3 (23:49):
Because they only have one of them. Yeah, and I
don't even know if that was a college student. It
was in College Station, Texas.
Speaker 1 (23:56):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (23:57):
I think part of the problem is people come to
us with their tips now or we find them.
Speaker 1 (24:02):
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (24:02):
Yeah, and it's fresher and art like the FBI is
working on other cases too, Like this is.
Speaker 8 (24:06):
Our Yeah, Like, I don't want to seem too hard
on them.
Speaker 3 (24:09):
It's frustrating that they don't have him an Olympia when
court records have him there. But I do get it,
like they don't have time to search all the places
that we're searching for tips and sightings.
Speaker 1 (24:20):
Yeah, okay, this is where things get interesting writings found
in a cell, anything of relevance in a suicide note.
We recently learned secondhand that a family member recognized some
of the writings in the suicide note as lyrics from
some of his favorite songs and bands. Follow up on
(24:40):
this as pending, and then information gleaned from the note
describing six victims in addition to three known victims. Three
additional victims were described, a male female couple who keys
later identified as being Washington victims, and an unidentified female
victim who was murdered near a vehicle. The document abruptly
(25:02):
ends mid sentence, suggesting that someone or something interrupted him
before he could finish writing regarding the couple that he described.
The male was killed by a shovel strike. The female
was both stabbed and strangled. The female was described as
an older woman. Both were buried in a grave. He's
mentioned that pine needles were on the ground, a water
(25:24):
source was nearby, and that he could hear vehicles in
the valley below the crime scene.
Speaker 8 (25:29):
What so it.
Speaker 5 (25:30):
Wasn't cammyon gene then in that case?
Speaker 8 (25:33):
Yeah? Wow, and old. I don't know what to think about.
Speaker 5 (25:36):
I don't either.
Speaker 1 (25:38):
One thing stood out to me and I don't it
might be a mee thing. So three unknown victims which
are at the couple. And then this woman, a female
victim who was murdered near a vehicle, which would then
(25:58):
also be the female victim who had dark brown, wavy hair,
a wealthy grandmother and drove an older car. And I don't.
I mean, it just screams preana maitland to me.
Speaker 6 (26:19):
Still Yeah.
Speaker 3 (26:36):
J C.
Speaker 9 (26:37):
McGee lived a life full of contradictions. Once a drug
dealer turned confidential informant, he was also a bar owner,
a father, and a man trying to leave his troubled
past behind him. But in July of two thousand and two,
his life was brutally cut short in an execution style
killing that remains unsolved. To this day, despite a series
(27:01):
of shocking events leading up to his death in a
deeply flawed investigation, justice has yet to be served.
Speaker 10 (27:09):
I'm Melissa and I'm Whitney join us on Navigating Advocacy
as we unravel the complex story of j. C.
Speaker 8 (27:15):
McGhee, uncover the truths.
Speaker 10 (27:17):
His daughter Madison has fought to bring to light, and
explore the dark secrets, lies, and corruption that continues throughout
this case. Starting the season, we are working exclusively with
families here more by subscribing to Navigating Advocacy wherever you
get your podcasts.
Speaker 1 (27:45):
Okay, so I asked about a bunch of cases. They
I believe answered all but three, and we'll get into
what that means in a second. But here are there responses,
which vary from frustrating to perfect. Rachel Cook, we defer
to the Sheriff's office this this is still an ongoing
(28:05):
investigation for them. Laurence Spear, keyes was asked about Lauren
Spear during his nine to twenty eight interview. We defer
to the local agency for any further questions about the case.
Brianna Mayland, we defer to the Vermont State Police, as
this is still an ongoing investigation for them. James Lamar Tidwell.
We defer to the Texas Rangers in Rust County Sheriff's
(28:26):
Office for comments on this case. Marvel Arbitson. Keyes has
four different financial purchases on eight twenty six in Anchorage, Alaska,
which he could have taken a red eye that it
kind of moved for me. This one is both annoying
and slightly revealing. Donald Tobin and I have dates here
(28:49):
in so just a refresh your memory seven seven, twenty ten.
Keyes has financial transactions in Alaska on seven six, twenty ten,
and is in Washington State on seven nine, thousand and ten.
We don't see any California transactions until seven eleven, twenty ten.
Speaker 5 (29:05):
Sounds like the perfect setup to me, get right.
Speaker 3 (29:09):
I don't remember what the world was like back then,
like internet wise, but could some of these transactions have
been over the internet.
Speaker 1 (29:19):
In twenty ten? Totally?
Speaker 8 (29:20):
Yeah, Like I feel like he was smart enough.
Speaker 1 (29:24):
To know that too well. And even then, like he
could make a transaction in Alaska on the sixth, be
in California on the seventh.
Speaker 8 (29:31):
He could also do it over the phone.
Speaker 1 (29:32):
Yeah, with the with the lineups I've done with the
credit card pavements and phone pings and blackouts.
Speaker 7 (29:39):
Something definitely happened in that week.
Speaker 1 (29:42):
Yeah, oh totally.
Speaker 8 (29:43):
Oh yeah, it was a weird week. Convinced it was.
Speaker 1 (29:47):
Yeah, And then here's a similar response, Noah Young five
to one oh seven. Keys financial records show numerous purchases
in Healdsburg and Calistoga, California on five to one seven,
and the purchases appear to be consistent with someone who
is on vacation.
Speaker 8 (30:04):
That's not helpful on a murder vacation.
Speaker 3 (30:09):
But I mean, you know, I really appreciate him answering
all these questions.
Speaker 1 (30:14):
Yeah, but that's not okay. Here is a big one.
Karen s. Adams Keys crossed from Canada into Alaska on
three nine oh seven. Financial records show him in Alaska
at the time of Adam's disappearance.
Speaker 8 (30:31):
Wouldn't surprise me.
Speaker 3 (30:33):
Yeah, I'm kind of gave up on her a while
ago because I don't think he's did it.
Speaker 8 (30:39):
He could have, but I don't think he did. I agree.
Speaker 1 (30:42):
Step and Michael Mason. The FBI and Clalin County Sheriff's
Office have looked closely at this case and the exact
date of Mason's disappearance is not definitive, which makes it
difficult to rule a suspect in or out without additional
evidence or information. Okay, Jack Colony Keys is so phone
records placed him in Nia Bay, Washington during this time.
Speaker 8 (31:03):
I'm not convinced. What do you think? What are your thoughts?
Speaker 1 (31:09):
I I think it would be very easy for them
to find out through interviewing people if Keys had had
had passed his phone off to someone to use while
he was gone.
Speaker 8 (31:21):
Good point.
Speaker 1 (31:23):
I just I think it's it's one thing to be
like there are no cell records, it's another thing to
be like his phone was being used in on the
other side of the country at the time.
Speaker 8 (31:33):
Yeah, it's a good point.
Speaker 1 (31:35):
He was blacking it out in that timeframe too, So
I mean like they kind of have a clear indicator
when he was turning it off and stuff in that
in that time frame.
Speaker 3 (31:45):
It's just so weird that we have a tip of
him at the same area, I mean a likely tip.
Speaker 8 (31:51):
But I I mean, if he wasn't there, he wasn't there.
Speaker 1 (31:53):
Yeah. The next one is like, I'm airing on the
side of the FBI, but their answer to me is
not definitive. Kimberly Ann Forbes, he's a cell phone records
place him in Na Bay, Washington this weekend. I am not, like,
what does it mean, Like is he on the whole time?
(32:17):
It's i think a four and a half hour drive.
Speaker 8 (32:19):
So that means nothing essentially.
Speaker 1 (32:22):
And we don't know when she disappeared, whether it was
that night or the following morning.
Speaker 3 (32:26):
I would love to know if he ever gave his
phone to his daughter, Like if she like went out
to a friend's house over the weekend, would he give
her the phone for like saying it was for safety reasons?
Speaker 1 (32:38):
Not in two thousand and four she would have been three.
Speaker 8 (32:41):
Oh good, good point. But would he have given.
Speaker 1 (32:44):
It to I mean maybe, but again I feel like
that would they would be able to corroborate that because
they even asked him, did you ever give your phone
to people to use? And so I'm sure asking him,
they're asking the people in his life.
Speaker 8 (32:58):
Yeah, good point.
Speaker 1 (32:59):
And this is where Kaz jumped in again with a
solid point of frustration. Again, I have the same question
about this as I do for the financial records. What
do you mean by cell phone records? Are you talking
about data? Are you talking about somebody checking voicemails. Are
you talking about phone calls being made, phone calls coming in?
(33:23):
What does that even mean. One of the things that
you have to contend with is that when you receive records,
a lot of the times you get them in UTC
Universal time. So if you have something, for instance, in
UTC and you're not doing the conversion for that time zone,
then you're reading it completely wrong. So that would be
one of the questions, are the times in UTC and
(33:43):
what time zones were they converted into. My point with
all this is just saying cell phone records place him
there is insufficient and not necessarily reliable.
Speaker 2 (33:53):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (33:54):
What's so frustrating is like the mythology, which is partially
true that they fucking create and sold to the world,
is that this guy was so meticulous and went to
great pains to cover his tracks, and yet they're like, oh, yeah,
financial records say he wasn't there, so he wasn't there.
Speaker 8 (34:12):
Yep. It's really weird.
Speaker 3 (34:14):
But I again, I also understand that they need to
cut off this research somewhere, and if financial records make
it seem like he isn't there, I understand being like, Okay,
he must.
Speaker 1 (34:27):
Not have been there, but it's like and not to
sound like I don't know, fucking bleeding heart liberal, but like,
then what's the fucking point? I know, then what's the
point If they're not going to fully investigate him, then
what is the point of that even remotely investigating him.
Speaker 3 (34:47):
I think they were never going to fully investigate him.
Speaker 1 (34:56):
Last one, Susie Lyle, You're gonna love this. We defer
to his statement regarding when he committed his first homicide.
Speaker 8 (35:04):
I mean, is he telling you that like on purpose?
Speaker 1 (35:08):
I think it's frustrating, Like.
Speaker 3 (35:11):
Is that his way of saying, we did not do
much work towards like on this, we have not looked.
Speaker 1 (35:15):
On at this possibly.
Speaker 8 (35:17):
I mean, like again, I'm not even blaming any of them,
because it really was just so much, yeah, like.
Speaker 3 (35:23):
So expansive that I get needing to figure out where
to begin and end.
Speaker 8 (35:30):
But I'm happy to, you know, do what you can't do.
Speaker 1 (35:34):
So what I've done with this is I've the only
bile or binders I've put on the bottom shelf for
Jack Colony and Karen Adams. Like, I am not satisfied
with the Kimberly Forbes answer. I'm not satisfied with the
Marvel Arbitson answer, I'm certainly not satisfied with the Donald
Tobin or no the young answers.
Speaker 3 (35:55):
Is that his way of telling you, like, maybe they
should be looked into more.
Speaker 1 (36:01):
But then here's what's interesting is here's the ones that
they did not respond and considering so many of these
are we defer to the local law enforcement agency, which
is such a like easy, literally copy and pasted answer,
I'm curious why they wouldn't just do these With the
(36:21):
cases that they didn't respond to, which are Mark Olberry,
Cammy and Eugene Celia, Darlene Barnes. And then I don't
know if they felt that the initial discussion about Jonathan
Corey was satisfactory, but they didn't mention that in this
list either.
Speaker 5 (36:41):
So wait, did they just leave this blank or did
they put no comment?
Speaker 1 (36:45):
They did not they So what they did was they
copied and pasted my email and then under where I
have the descriptions, they put their answers. So it was
very like it required effort to then go delete those
names from their copy and paste.
Speaker 8 (37:01):
Oh, very fishy.
Speaker 1 (37:03):
It's very strange to me that they won't discuss Cameyon,
Eugene Celia, Darlene Barnes or Mark Olberry, because I think
those are all very strong cases and there is no
way that Celia Darlene Barnes, Cameyon Eugene are not on
Hollow's radar.
Speaker 6 (37:22):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (37:22):
I mentioned Camyon Eugene to him on the phone with
him two years ago. He said, he said he wasn't
aware of that case.
Speaker 11 (37:31):
Really, really, do you believe that in their heads that
this couple victim involved an older woman than I guess
if they were looking in the early days and came
across that case, you know, they would have just ruled
it out in that.
Speaker 5 (37:47):
Sense, Also because the police there were so adamant that
it was this rogue wave.
Speaker 8 (37:52):
Who are the Allensburg couple?
Speaker 6 (37:54):
Do we know that's true?
Speaker 1 (37:56):
We still don't know. And now I'm wondering if the
Ellensburg couple is their name for the unknown couple.
Speaker 8 (38:03):
Yeah, I'm wondering that too.
Speaker 4 (38:05):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (38:05):
Yeah, I think from what I what I gather, the
reason why they were looking into hunters is from an
Ellen's for phone ping m.
Speaker 4 (38:13):
Hm, So I think that might be correlated to that couple.
Speaker 1 (38:18):
I think it is feasible to at least narrow down
where this murder took place. I started looking into where
pine trees are in Washington State and where there's a
valley that has a trafficked road in it, and there
are fewer options than one would think.
Speaker 7 (38:40):
I wonder if it might be a good thing. If
they're not answering on some of those things, maybe they're
looking deeper into that. Yeah, hopefully I would think that
old Barry, they would if they didn't have any information
or weren't interested in it, then maybe they would have
just deferred you to the Texas Rangers.
Speaker 1 (38:57):
Again, exactly, That's what I'm thinking. I think them not
responding to specific cases is almost more telling than them Yeah, responding.
Speaker 4 (39:06):
I agree. Well, I mean, at the same time, with
like Tidwell, you know that could be a push to
have you actually confront the local jurisdictions to where with
the information and see if they pushed up to the
FBI eventually.
Speaker 7 (39:20):
Yeah, I'd be really excited to see what they say
about the the missing people that they didn't answer about.
Speaker 1 (39:26):
Yeah. What's interesting to me is like those are some
of the ones that make the most sense to me.
I mean, Celia Darlene Barnes like fits his m O perfectly.
It's in the area at the time. I mean, I
know we differ on Vollandroff and Hyatt, and then old
Berry to me is of all the cases we've looked into,
probably the most likely keys.
Speaker 4 (39:48):
M M. Yeah, I think the Oldberry case is very,
very interesting. After getting reading that case file, yeah, it's
I think there's definitely something worth pursuing. Their with Cam
and Eugene, I just don't think that that's the couple
that he killed in Washington based upon the FBI interviews,
doesn't mean that he wasn't a part of it.
Speaker 1 (40:19):
Okay. So now I just want to briefly go over
the stuff that the other stuff they didn't respond to.
Speaker 8 (40:24):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (40:25):
So I mentioned the Christina encounter, the Hawk Mountain encounter.
They did not respond to that. I mentioned the discuss comments.
They did not respond to that. I mentioned cash tips
in Santa Rosa and Franconia, New Hampshire. They did not
respond to that. I mentioned the newspapers found in his house.
(40:48):
They did not respond to that. I mentioned the Amish
couple who rented his house. They did not respond to that.
I mentioned the aerial photos we got of his house
from two thousand and one. They did not respond to that.
I mentioned the Minnesota Vikings sighting. They didn't respond to that.
I mentioned the multiple sightings in Johnson, Vermont. They did
not respond to that. I asked clarifying questions about NamUs,
(41:11):
so was there ever any discussion about how specific names
ended up on his computer other than that of the
couriers in Deborah Feldman didn't respond. I asked about the
geographic clusters from the name is forty five. They didn't respond.
I asked about whether there was any evidence that he
has returned to the scenes of his crimes to either
place or tamper with evidence. They didn't respond. I asked
(41:34):
about a few different timeline anomalies, like the Grand Forks,
the Las Vegas airline records being in conflict with the
cell phone records, fishing licenses, and different places on the
same weekend, and they didn't respond to any of that
except the construction job question. I asked, so again they
(41:56):
had to go through and like delete all that other
stuff and just respond to that one thing. Asked about
Deborah Feldman's remains, no response. A cash on Keenai Peninsula,
no response. A mobile outomobile Alabama carjacking no response, and yeah,
that's what they did not respond to. Interesting, So yeah,
that's all of that. We recorded those conversations less than
(42:31):
forty eight hours after receiving those thirty six answers, and
for everyone but chas in me, it was their first
time hearing the responses. Those answers, and in some cases
lack thereof, have since inspired a lot of conversation, research
(42:51):
and re examination. We're preparing case studies with tips and
interviews to send to the FBI while I wait to
finally sit down with Special Agent Hala and talk face
to face about the key's investigation. Because while these answers
are at times both frustrating and exciting, we cannot forget
(43:16):
that these answers are just the beginning.
Speaker 12 (43:20):
If one step can get us back up on our toes,
why don't we run until there's no way left to go. Oh,
let's push your head, push yourselves instead. You're young, you
can't look back to you girls have to crawl through
(43:41):
the try swell learning had again?
Speaker 8 (43:45):
Well learn how agree.
Speaker 12 (43:50):
Now the kick and through the class will learning half
stead to learning power speed.
Speaker 1 (44:06):
This episode was written, researched, edited and produced by Me
your host Josh Hallmark. It featured Shana Wilensky, Michelle Tooker,
Jordan Taylor, and Joshua Ash and Dakota Williams from Somewhere
in the Pines. This episode was made possible by the
following Patreon producers Amelia Hancock, Amy Basel and Marie Cash
and at El, Ash Fish, Becky c, Benjamin, Choppa, Fong, Casey, Jensen, Richardson,
(44:27):
Christina Sissone, Dale Accident, Drew Ipond, Heather Horton, Whedon, Gillian Natale,
Kathleen stud Kendall, C Lona Holiday, Lauren f Linley, tuscoff
Manolas Bulcus, Nicole and Dennis Henry, Nicole Gooseman, Pink s C.
Shelley Brewer, Sherry D. Trista, Tuesday Woodworth, Zach Ignotowitz, Warren,
Beth McNally, John Comrie, Jordan m Jordan Taylor, Michael Beer,
Sarah C Shawna, Harden's Spooky Express, and Lydia Fiedler. Thank
(44:50):
you to Studio Both Anne's newest Patreon supporters, Gina Perkins,
Katie Paul, Gina s Sugar, k Allison, Patricia l Emil Sapphire, Bear,
Katerina B Michael g Julie B, Tracy W, Ryan S
and Megan A. To support the investigation and get AD
free episodes, go to Patreon dot com, slash Studio both
(45:11):
and This episode included music by William Hellfire, Radical Face
Wife and Sergei Cheramisanoff with featured music by Koshka. True
Crime Bullshit will return on December fifth.
Speaker 12 (45:54):
Last will Apprehension and so clear that the flute to
feel the land of one stood.
Speaker 13 (46:06):
Well three deep after falling drop swell.
Speaker 2 (46:12):
Half.
Speaker 13 (46:14):
Burning had read now kicking down the glass wall, half
stead tall, burn house speaking.
Speaker 7 (46:28):
This lazy.
Speaker 12 (46:29):
I've been holding steady. I've been holding steady, and lately
I've been holding steady. I've been holding steady.
Speaker 8 (46:50):
The time the swift so.
Speaker 13 (46:53):
Cold of.
Speaker 6 (46:56):
Sets me.
Speaker 1 (47:05):
Huw scene.
Speaker 13 (47:10):
Stop instead, story scene says, instead show you see.
Speaker 6 (47:29):
It's start instead. Story scene
Speaker 8 (47:42):
Instead, co show
Join me in the Researchers Thursday after the show at
nine p m. Eastern on YouTube for a live stream
discussion about the episode. The link to the live stream
is in the show notes. And there's only a handful
of tickets left to join me Charlie from Crime Lines
and Laney from True Crime Cases with Laney on our
South American Wine tasting trip. Travel with us from February
(00:22):
twenty seventh through March fifth from Santiago, Chile to Mendoza,
Argentina for wine tasting, sightseeing and true crime conversations. We'll
get out of the country, sip Malbeck in the South
American summer and talk Israel Keys. Learn more or book
your trip by clicking the Trova trip link in the
show notes. This is a studio both and production. This
(01:03):
past September, an FBI liaison reached out as part of
an ongoing communication to schedule an interview between me and
Special Agent Ted Holla. The liaison requested both the list
of proposed topics for our interview as well as preliminary
written questions. Putting that list together was one of the
most intimidating projects in six years full of intimidating projects.
(01:27):
In this podcast. I wanted to be strategic but earnest,
cooperative but autonomous, and I wanted to prove that I
was worth their time while also getting to the heart
of what I thought was the most important fuel for
my investigation into Keys. When my response email was finally sent,
(01:48):
there were nineteen discussion topics and fifty four questions. Of course,
in a perfect less strategic world, there could never be enough.
I pressed send on the email and waited and waited
and waited. As more and more weeks passed, I told
(02:10):
myself that the longer it took for them to respond,
the better they were likely going over my questions and theories.
They were combing through their research and information. They were
reaching out to various field agents. They were taking my
questions seriously and responding as such. But my gut told
me that they didn't take me seriously, that they thought
(02:33):
I was some hack. And as more and more time passed,
I resigned myself to just keep moving along in my investigation,
that the answers might never come, or if they did come,
they might not be meaningful.
Speaker 2 (02:58):
This is true grind bullshit. I'm your host, Josh Hallmark,
and this is a serialized story of Israel Keys.
Speaker 1 (03:17):
Last week, the FBI liaison responded, ready to schedule my
meeting with Essay Haula and with a document responses to
a majority of my questions thirty six answers about Israel Keys.
Those answers varied from short and frustrating, to canned and rehearsed,
(03:41):
to candid and thoughtful. There is new information about keys
as victims, new timeline items that ruled out some high
profile potential Keys victims, new information about the letter confiscated
from his cell. There were answers that blew my mind,
answers that frustrated me, and many answers that I just
(04:02):
wasn't quite satisfied with. But most of all, I was
excited and invigorated. The FBI, after ten years of investigating Keys,
was finally sharing information with us, new information, information the
(04:22):
public had never heard before. And so I called up
the teams, both the True Crime Bullshit Research Team and
Josh and Dakota from Somewhere in the Pines, and we
talked through all of those thirty six answers and the
questions the FBI didn't answer, and what their silence might mean.
(04:48):
There are some answers that I think both kas and
I were not entirely satisfied with that. They seemed to
be taking keys at his word on stuffed that I
don't think any of us are inclined to do so.
There are going to be some frustrating answers, but there's
also a ton of new information and we are going
(05:08):
to be able to rule out a handful of very
high profile potential victims.
Speaker 3 (05:15):
That's so exciting. I love being given like a firm
yes or no.
Speaker 1 (05:20):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (05:22):
I don't like wasting my time if somebody has the answers.
Speaker 1 (05:25):
Well, and I also like there are some firm yeses
and nos, but there are also some ambiguous answers that
are going to be frustrating. Okay, so yeah, just it's
a it's a mixed bag. And with that, are you
guys ready?
Speaker 4 (05:42):
I am ready.
Speaker 5 (05:44):
I've been waiting anxiously, so already.
Speaker 1 (05:49):
We started with the Laplace encounter in cash. I asked
the FBI if they had determined the exact location of
that cash, the exact location of the encount, and whether
law enforcements still had the cash or at minimum photos
and a catalog of its contents. Their response was no.
(06:12):
All local jurisdictions that cover this area were contacted, and
no reports, photos, or records could be found regarding the
buckets or the call to police regarding them. Two of
the individuals who were allegedly with the witness at the
time of this discovery are now deceased. A third individual,
who the witness only had a first name for, we've
(06:33):
been unable to further identify or contact for corroboration. Now,
it's important to note that depending on where the items
from the cash and the cash itself were taken and stored,
there could be several different reasons for this that only
local law enforcement could tell us. There's a possibility that
(06:54):
because it's a very hurricane prone area that there could
have been places where evidence was stored that were breached
and destroyed. It could also have been destroyed as a
matter of force if it wasn't connected to any ongoing case,
could have been destroyed or cleared from evidence rooms, which
seems the more likely scenario. As you'll recall, the guy
(07:16):
who found the cash basically had to beg multiple agencies
to take him seriously, so there is a high likelihood
that this particular evidence may not exist anymore.
Speaker 6 (07:28):
Interesting.
Speaker 1 (07:30):
That's frustrating, Yeah, yeah, It's frustrating, but there's you know,
the outcome is still the same, Like, there's no way
this was not Keys, because there was evidence of his
on his computer. So there's no way that this guy
makes up this story and it just happens to perfectly
correspond with items found on Keys's computer. Agreed, And while
(07:56):
that was incredibly disappointing, there was some good news guarding
Louisiana because I also asked if the FBI had a
time stamp for Keys's New Orleans Walmart transaction on February third,
either the day of or the day after Mark Oldberry
most likely disappeared, and the day that Christina most likely
had her cemetery encounter. And it turns out the FBI does.
(08:22):
Keys made that transaction at nine to fifty one PM
Central time. This means that Keys would have had ample
time to encounter both Oldberry and Christina and then leave
the state and make it to New Orleans by nine
fifty one PM. And this also aligns perfectly with the
Texas timeline we've been building for Keys. Okay, moving on.
(08:50):
This is frustrating and I have a hard time believing it.
Asked about the army, do we know where and when
Keys took the GED test and received his Social Security
card while prepping for the army. No, do you have
information about where Keys was stationed and when an Army timeline?
We do not have a timeline, but based on interviews
and his own statements, we know that he spent time
(09:12):
in Panama in ninety nine, Egypt from approximately jan to
June two thousand and in Saudi Arabia, and in Israel
in two thousand to two thousand and one. Do you
have Keys' leave and time off records from the Army.
Speaker 3 (09:25):
No, So that's frustrating. But I don't know that we
knew about Panama.
Speaker 1 (09:29):
We did that Efrin guy, which is actually awesome because
now it corroborates Ephrin. So Efrin had said Panama, Okay, awesome,
that was for like a jungle warfare school, right, yeah,
I think so.
Speaker 7 (09:42):
I think they did it down there.
Speaker 4 (09:44):
Then that was a popular infantry school around that time.
Speaker 1 (09:51):
Okay, Next up, I asked about Calville. Calville PDI has
told me they don't believe Keys was responsible for the
murders of Cassie and Marlene Emerson. Has he been into
and or ruled out for this? Key stated that his
first homicide occurred after he got out of the army
July two thousand and one and before the birth of
his daughter October two thousand and one. He was also
(10:11):
asked about this case during his ten thirty, twenty twelve interview.
We have no information or evidence indicating that he had
any involvement in this case, and we defer to the
local agency for any further questions. Then I asked the
same thing about Harris see answer above regarding the year
of his first homicide.
Speaker 5 (10:29):
Okay, I mean in there then that would rule him
out with Susie, which I don't buy.
Speaker 8 (10:34):
A good point.
Speaker 1 (10:36):
Well, I just like, why are you believing a serial
killer who doesn't want you to find his victims when
he's said, like, I wonder if.
Speaker 3 (10:43):
Like they're just so desperate for parameters in the search
that they'll just take any old parameter he gave them.
Speaker 5 (10:50):
Yeah, it's a good.
Speaker 1 (10:51):
Point, or there's just something they know that we don't know.
But I just I cannot comprehend why they are so
firm on this when everything he has said seems to
indicate otherwise.
Speaker 3 (11:01):
How could they possibly now though, Like, I mean, what
could they know that could change that like he said it.
Speaker 5 (11:09):
Yeah, well maybe they have information from that jurisdiction about
who the most likely killer is. That's the only other
thing I could think of.
Speaker 1 (11:18):
Yeah, and that's where Dakota and I landed. Like, I
will totally buy he's not involved in either of those crimes,
but I do not buy that he did not kill
anyone until July two thousand and one.
Speaker 8 (11:29):
Yeah, I agree.
Speaker 7 (11:30):
I think that we've gone over this with Halla, this
specific timeline of his first murder, and I think that
I don't necessarily agree with, you know me personally, I
don't necessarily agree with that that his first murder was
after the military. And the main reason is because when
(11:53):
they ask him, what's the longest you went between murders,
he said, well, when I was in the military, that
right there, you know. I so, yeah, I don't, I
don't know, but I think it's I think it's okay to,
you know, to disagree with the FBI, especially if they're
just basing their you know, their facts on what Key said.
Speaker 1 (12:18):
Oh for sure. And I you know, and again like
they've never met Key, so they can only do so much.
But Catherine Ramslin and Chris Kunkle both said there's no
way that he is like working himself to kill, priming
to kill, does this thing with the to Shoots girl,
and then waits three years to kill again or to
try to kill again. They're just there's no fucking way.
Speaker 7 (12:37):
Right, right, especially since he showed so much regret in
the fact that he let her live.
Speaker 4 (12:42):
Yeah, so I disagree. Uh, they didn't ask him if
how long could you go between murders? I think that
was maybe suggested, but he already call out the to
Shoots rape as something very important to him and very
big for him, a big, a big step in his progression,
I guess. So I think that's that's what they are
referring to, is that him rapt tempting or raping the
(13:05):
girl into Shoots was his first attempt into that the
more extreme side of his personality, and that's why they
I think that's what they are alluding to. And they
aren't like after talking to the consult like, I'm totally
fine with the moving on from Julia Harris just based
(13:25):
on their opinion. Yeah, I don't know, Like, I totally
understand the idea that he's there. It's possible, and I'm
not saying that there's no way it happened. But I
think I tend to agree with them on that now
that after talking with them and talking with the consults,
it just it makes a lot more sense. And Yeah,
(13:46):
in my opinion, I'm totally comfortable with that answer, I
guess is what I'm trying to say.
Speaker 1 (13:51):
Yeah, I mean, I am, and I'm not I am
in that specific regard. I have never really thought Harris
was a potential victim, and so I agree that, yeah,
he probably wasn't killing anyone prior to the dishoots girl.
But where I, I guess, differ from you, as I
do believe there was a murder between the Toshoots and
(14:11):
the army.
Speaker 7 (14:12):
Yeah, I mean, until until we can put a put
a name to it or a you know, an actual event,
then you know, there's not much we can say one
way or the other. But I don't think that it's
the best practice to just trust Keys at his word totally.
Speaker 1 (14:27):
Yeah, I guess that's my like, I don't know if
disappointments the right word. I guess surprise is that you know,
that's how they're operating, is that Keys is telling the
whole truth and nothing about the truth.
Speaker 7 (14:38):
Right, But they also have a lot more information than
we do to be able to fact check those things,
so you know, I do. I go back and forth too,
Like I agree with Joshua that, you know, like we
need to trust the FBI, but I also agree that
let's not trust keys right exactly.
Speaker 1 (14:56):
Next up, I asked about Beaver Lake and Lake Ozette.
There are multiple sightings and interviews placing Keys repeatedly on
these lakes. Is there any indication Keys used them in
as crimes. We have no direct information from Keys that
either of these lakes were involved in his crimes. However,
we do know that he frequented these lakes and recognized
that Lake Ozette's remote setting would make sense for an
(15:17):
abduction and or body disposal location. We recently had the
National Park Service pool all their historical records for deaths
and or missing persons in or around Lake Ozette. We
were especially interested in any unattended drownings or deaths. No
cases were identified which we felt needed additional follow up.
And then I said have they been searched? And I
said no. One without specific information or new evidence to
(15:40):
help narrow down a specific area, we are not able
to justify the cost or manpower for such a search.
Speaker 7 (15:46):
Yeah, this is something that I actually reached out to
Jordan about. But have you guys looked into getting information
from like the state parks, you know, just incident reports
or anything like that.
Speaker 1 (15:58):
I actually have every incident report from Olympic from I
think like eighty eight until two thousand and six. I think,
I want to say, I have not gone through them
all yet. It's just one of those piles of like
things I need to get to at some point. But yeah,
we have all of them.
Speaker 4 (16:16):
Yeah, and j as West Coast? Is that all of
Washington or just the Olympic.
Speaker 1 (16:21):
Peninsula just Olympic National Park? Okay, studio both and is
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(16:42):
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(17:06):
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That's Better Help h e l P dot com slash
tcb next and this I found to be pretty interesting.
(18:12):
I asked about dating apps and online in contact, so
I started with Craigslist. There hasn't been confirmed Keys use
Craigslist to engage our VET potential victims. We know that
Keys used apps like Craigslist for dates and solicitation. We
have no information that Keys had any connection online or
otherwise to his victims prior to their victimization. We know
(18:36):
that he frequently dated using match dot com. Keys indicated
to investigators that he would never target any of the
individuals that he met through apps or dating sites, as
he understood that this could possibly lead law enforcement to him.
Then I asked about Adult friend Finder, Yes he did
use this app. I asked about Grinder, Yes he did
use this app. I asked about online connections between Bill Courier.
(18:59):
They said, we looked into this and none were found.
Oh pardon good questions. Yeah, Key's life comments on online
articles about Samantha Koenig and admitted to doing so with
other victims. Has this been explored not beyond Samantha Koenig,
And we do not know if ESSEXPD ever investigated this
with the Couriers.
Speaker 7 (19:19):
It seems like this would be something that they I mean,
as they're mining his computers and his hard drives, that
some of this, you know, that's where they found the maps.
Maybe some of them come up there, you know, all
his user names and stuff.
Speaker 1 (19:32):
Or even IP addresses. I mean, I know it's not
an exact science like it would be with email or
user names, but you know, what are the odds that
someone who shares an IP address with Keys is commenting
on missing persons cases?
Speaker 2 (19:45):
Right?
Speaker 8 (19:45):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (19:48):
Next up is Knea Bay. According to the October thirtieth interview,
it was determined that Keys owned a second motor boat
while living in Knia Bay. Was this boat ever located No.
Keys stated that this particular boat needs did too much work,
so he scrapped the.
Speaker 8 (20:01):
Project, so they trusted him.
Speaker 2 (20:04):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (20:05):
The stuff that I just can't wrap my head around,
the blind trust that they selectively put into him.
Speaker 3 (20:13):
Yeah, it's weird, But I also think they just desperately
needed parameters for this, Like there's so many possibilities that
they had to focus somehow.
Speaker 1 (20:25):
This is where Kaz jumped in to say, it goes
back to something I've been saying from the very beginning.
I think that when Keys was being questioned, the questions
were not being thought through, The follow up was not
being done, and the people who were coming up with
the questions and doing the questioning were not particularly good interviewers.
(20:46):
I think it's as simple as that. As I'm going
through this and I'm listening, I keep thinking, Okay, the
boat was too much work, and you scrapped the project.
What do you mean by scrapped the project? Did you
get rid of the boat? Was the boat still on
your property? Did you ever go back and work on
the boat again?
Speaker 8 (21:06):
Where was it?
Speaker 1 (21:07):
Did you sell it to somebody? Did you give it away?
Did you throw it out?
Speaker 2 (21:12):
These are the.
Speaker 1 (21:12):
Answers to the questions that you want, because that's what
an attorney is going to ask you on cross examination.
That's the follow up that you need to have. So
he scrapped the project and then you just leave it there.
That can mean a million different things. I think that
the investigators were replacing the follow up questions with what
they inherently assumed would be the answers. All right, moving
(21:38):
right along. Cash is In an unsealed interview with Keys,
he more openly discussed the Green River. Cash did he
give any clarity on where approximately it is located? Has
Flaming Gorge been searched. No cash searches have ever been
conducted by the FBI in Wyoming, which is wild to me.
Speaker 3 (21:56):
Yeah, I guess would they know where to go? Well,
I mean Flaming Gorge, but would they know any specific
somewhere to go?
Speaker 1 (22:03):
No, And it's a massive lake, Like I drove just
one half of it, and it's there's so many places
you could have hidden it.
Speaker 6 (22:10):
They weren't going chase.
Speaker 1 (22:12):
No soup kitchen, shelters and roommates. Multiple sightings of keys
at homeless shelters and soup kitchens. Has this been explored?
We have received no credible tips of keys being at
homeless shelters or soup kitchens. The credible from there Johnstown,
New York has multiple sightings and a missing person case
(22:33):
that matches m oh Kelly Sue Akernek nine thirty, two
thousand and eight. Financial records placed keys in Alaska on
nine thirty, two thousand and eight.
Speaker 5 (22:41):
That's the that's probably that invoice that we found on
that website. But like we said, and Conkle said, it
could have just been fabricated.
Speaker 1 (22:49):
So well, and that's what I would love to know,
is like, is that it or are there additional financial records?
Speaker 5 (22:56):
Yeah, that couldn't that are definitively Keys and not like,
oh he gave his card to someone or you know
it was Kim making a purchase.
Speaker 1 (23:03):
Online or what And what are the time stamps? Because like,
he could feasibly at six am made a transaction and
anchorage and been in Johnstown by ten pm when she
got off her shift. Olympia, Washington has a sighting and
a missing person case that matches m Jonathan Corey won
thirty two thousand and two. We are unaware of a
(23:25):
sighting of Keys in relation to this case and have
no evidence that places him in or near Olympia, Washington
during this period, which is frustrating to me because we
have court records that have him in Olympia during that period.
It's interesting multiple reports of Keys living with college students
for one to three weeks at a time then disappearing.
Has this been explored? We're unaware of these reports, yeah.
Speaker 3 (23:49):
Because they only have one of them. Yeah, and I
don't even know if that was a college student. It
was in College Station, Texas.
Speaker 1 (23:56):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (23:57):
I think part of the problem is people come to
us with their tips now or we find them.
Speaker 1 (24:02):
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (24:02):
Yeah, and it's fresher and art like the FBI is
working on other cases too, Like this is.
Speaker 8 (24:06):
Our Yeah, Like, I don't want to seem too hard
on them.
Speaker 3 (24:09):
It's frustrating that they don't have him an Olympia when
court records have him there. But I do get it,
like they don't have time to search all the places
that we're searching for tips and sightings.
Speaker 1 (24:20):
Yeah, okay, this is where things get interesting writings found
in a cell, anything of relevance in a suicide note.
We recently learned secondhand that a family member recognized some
of the writings in the suicide note as lyrics from
some of his favorite songs and bands. Follow up on
(24:40):
this as pending, and then information gleaned from the note
describing six victims in addition to three known victims. Three
additional victims were described, a male female couple who keys
later identified as being Washington victims, and an unidentified female
victim who was murdered near a vehicle. The document abruptly
(25:02):
ends mid sentence, suggesting that someone or something interrupted him
before he could finish writing regarding the couple that he described.
The male was killed by a shovel strike. The female
was both stabbed and strangled. The female was described as
an older woman. Both were buried in a grave. He's
mentioned that pine needles were on the ground, a water
(25:24):
source was nearby, and that he could hear vehicles in
the valley below the crime scene.
Speaker 8 (25:29):
What so it.
Speaker 5 (25:30):
Wasn't cammyon gene then in that case?
Speaker 8 (25:33):
Yeah? Wow, and old. I don't know what to think about.
Speaker 5 (25:36):
I don't either.
Speaker 1 (25:38):
One thing stood out to me and I don't it
might be a mee thing. So three unknown victims which
are at the couple. And then this woman, a female
victim who was murdered near a vehicle, which would then
(25:58):
also be the female victim who had dark brown, wavy hair,
a wealthy grandmother and drove an older car. And I don't.
I mean, it just screams preana maitland to me.
Speaker 6 (26:19):
Still Yeah.
Speaker 3 (26:36):
J C.
Speaker 9 (26:37):
McGee lived a life full of contradictions. Once a drug
dealer turned confidential informant, he was also a bar owner,
a father, and a man trying to leave his troubled
past behind him. But in July of two thousand and two,
his life was brutally cut short in an execution style
killing that remains unsolved. To this day, despite a series
(27:01):
of shocking events leading up to his death in a
deeply flawed investigation, justice has yet to be served.
Speaker 10 (27:09):
I'm Melissa and I'm Whitney join us on Navigating Advocacy
as we unravel the complex story of j. C.
Speaker 8 (27:15):
McGhee, uncover the truths.
Speaker 10 (27:17):
His daughter Madison has fought to bring to light, and
explore the dark secrets, lies, and corruption that continues throughout
this case. Starting the season, we are working exclusively with
families here more by subscribing to Navigating Advocacy wherever you
get your podcasts.
Speaker 1 (27:45):
Okay, so I asked about a bunch of cases. They
I believe answered all but three, and we'll get into
what that means in a second. But here are there responses,
which vary from frustrating to perfect. Rachel Cook, we defer
to the Sheriff's office this this is still an ongoing
(28:05):
investigation for them. Laurence Spear, keyes was asked about Lauren
Spear during his nine to twenty eight interview. We defer
to the local agency for any further questions about the case.
Brianna Mayland, we defer to the Vermont State Police, as
this is still an ongoing investigation for them. James Lamar Tidwell.
We defer to the Texas Rangers in Rust County Sheriff's
(28:26):
Office for comments on this case. Marvel Arbitson. Keyes has
four different financial purchases on eight twenty six in Anchorage, Alaska,
which he could have taken a red eye that it
kind of moved for me. This one is both annoying
and slightly revealing. Donald Tobin and I have dates here
(28:49):
in so just a refresh your memory seven seven, twenty ten.
Keyes has financial transactions in Alaska on seven six, twenty ten,
and is in Washington State on seven nine, thousand and ten.
We don't see any California transactions until seven eleven, twenty ten.
Speaker 5 (29:05):
Sounds like the perfect setup to me, get right.
Speaker 3 (29:09):
I don't remember what the world was like back then,
like internet wise, but could some of these transactions have
been over the internet.
Speaker 1 (29:19):
In twenty ten? Totally?
Speaker 8 (29:20):
Yeah, Like I feel like he was smart enough.
Speaker 1 (29:24):
To know that too well. And even then, like he
could make a transaction in Alaska on the sixth, be
in California on the seventh.
Speaker 8 (29:31):
He could also do it over the phone.
Speaker 1 (29:32):
Yeah, with the with the lineups I've done with the
credit card pavements and phone pings and blackouts.
Speaker 7 (29:39):
Something definitely happened in that week.
Speaker 1 (29:42):
Yeah, oh totally.
Speaker 8 (29:43):
Oh yeah, it was a weird week. Convinced it was.
Speaker 1 (29:47):
Yeah, And then here's a similar response, Noah Young five
to one oh seven. Keys financial records show numerous purchases
in Healdsburg and Calistoga, California on five to one seven,
and the purchases appear to be consistent with someone who
is on vacation.
Speaker 8 (30:04):
That's not helpful on a murder vacation.
Speaker 3 (30:09):
But I mean, you know, I really appreciate him answering
all these questions.
Speaker 1 (30:14):
Yeah, but that's not okay. Here is a big one.
Karen s. Adams Keys crossed from Canada into Alaska on
three nine oh seven. Financial records show him in Alaska
at the time of Adam's disappearance.
Speaker 8 (30:31):
Wouldn't surprise me.
Speaker 3 (30:33):
Yeah, I'm kind of gave up on her a while
ago because I don't think he's did it.
Speaker 8 (30:39):
He could have, but I don't think he did. I agree.
Speaker 1 (30:42):
Step and Michael Mason. The FBI and Clalin County Sheriff's
Office have looked closely at this case and the exact
date of Mason's disappearance is not definitive, which makes it
difficult to rule a suspect in or out without additional
evidence or information. Okay, Jack Colony Keys is so phone
records placed him in Nia Bay, Washington during this time.
Speaker 8 (31:03):
I'm not convinced. What do you think? What are your thoughts?
Speaker 1 (31:09):
I I think it would be very easy for them
to find out through interviewing people if Keys had had
had passed his phone off to someone to use while
he was gone.
Speaker 8 (31:21):
Good point.
Speaker 1 (31:23):
I just I think it's it's one thing to be
like there are no cell records, it's another thing to
be like his phone was being used in on the
other side of the country at the time.
Speaker 8 (31:33):
Yeah, it's a good point.
Speaker 1 (31:35):
He was blacking it out in that timeframe too, So
I mean like they kind of have a clear indicator
when he was turning it off and stuff in that
in that time frame.
Speaker 3 (31:45):
It's just so weird that we have a tip of
him at the same area, I mean a likely tip.
Speaker 8 (31:51):
But I I mean, if he wasn't there, he wasn't there.
Speaker 1 (31:53):
Yeah. The next one is like, I'm airing on the
side of the FBI, but their answer to me is
not definitive. Kimberly Ann Forbes, he's a cell phone records
place him in Na Bay, Washington this weekend. I am not, like,
what does it mean, Like is he on the whole time?
(32:17):
It's i think a four and a half hour drive.
Speaker 8 (32:19):
So that means nothing essentially.
Speaker 1 (32:22):
And we don't know when she disappeared, whether it was
that night or the following morning.
Speaker 3 (32:26):
I would love to know if he ever gave his
phone to his daughter, Like if she like went out
to a friend's house over the weekend, would he give
her the phone for like saying it was for safety reasons?
Speaker 1 (32:38):
Not in two thousand and four she would have been three.
Speaker 8 (32:41):
Oh good, good point. But would he have given.
Speaker 1 (32:44):
It to I mean maybe, but again I feel like
that would they would be able to corroborate that because
they even asked him, did you ever give your phone
to people to use? And so I'm sure asking him,
they're asking the people in his life.
Speaker 8 (32:58):
Yeah, good point.
Speaker 1 (32:59):
And this is where Kaz jumped in again with a
solid point of frustration. Again, I have the same question
about this as I do for the financial records. What
do you mean by cell phone records? Are you talking
about data? Are you talking about somebody checking voicemails. Are
you talking about phone calls being made, phone calls coming in?
(33:23):
What does that even mean. One of the things that
you have to contend with is that when you receive records,
a lot of the times you get them in UTC
Universal time. So if you have something, for instance, in
UTC and you're not doing the conversion for that time zone,
then you're reading it completely wrong. So that would be
one of the questions, are the times in UTC and
(33:43):
what time zones were they converted into. My point with
all this is just saying cell phone records place him
there is insufficient and not necessarily reliable.
Speaker 2 (33:53):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (33:54):
What's so frustrating is like the mythology, which is partially
true that they fucking create and sold to the world,
is that this guy was so meticulous and went to
great pains to cover his tracks, and yet they're like, oh, yeah,
financial records say he wasn't there, so he wasn't there.
Speaker 8 (34:12):
Yep. It's really weird.
Speaker 3 (34:14):
But I again, I also understand that they need to
cut off this research somewhere, and if financial records make
it seem like he isn't there, I understand being like, Okay,
he must.
Speaker 1 (34:27):
Not have been there, but it's like and not to
sound like I don't know, fucking bleeding heart liberal, but like,
then what's the fucking point? I know, then what's the
point If they're not going to fully investigate him, then
what is the point of that even remotely investigating him.
Speaker 3 (34:47):
I think they were never going to fully investigate him.
Speaker 1 (34:56):
Last one, Susie Lyle, You're gonna love this. We defer
to his statement regarding when he committed his first homicide.
Speaker 8 (35:04):
I mean, is he telling you that like on purpose?
Speaker 1 (35:08):
I think it's frustrating, Like.
Speaker 3 (35:11):
Is that his way of saying, we did not do
much work towards like on this, we have not looked.
Speaker 1 (35:15):
On at this possibly.
Speaker 8 (35:17):
I mean, like again, I'm not even blaming any of them,
because it really was just so much, yeah, like.
Speaker 3 (35:23):
So expansive that I get needing to figure out where
to begin and end.
Speaker 8 (35:30):
But I'm happy to, you know, do what you can't do.
Speaker 1 (35:34):
So what I've done with this is I've the only
bile or binders I've put on the bottom shelf for
Jack Colony and Karen Adams. Like, I am not satisfied
with the Kimberly Forbes answer. I'm not satisfied with the
Marvel Arbitson answer, I'm certainly not satisfied with the Donald
Tobin or no the young answers.
Speaker 3 (35:55):
Is that his way of telling you, like, maybe they
should be looked into more.
Speaker 1 (36:01):
But then here's what's interesting is here's the ones that
they did not respond and considering so many of these
are we defer to the local law enforcement agency, which
is such a like easy, literally copy and pasted answer,
I'm curious why they wouldn't just do these With the
(36:21):
cases that they didn't respond to, which are Mark Olberry,
Cammy and Eugene Celia, Darlene Barnes. And then I don't
know if they felt that the initial discussion about Jonathan
Corey was satisfactory, but they didn't mention that in this
list either.
Speaker 5 (36:41):
So wait, did they just leave this blank or did
they put no comment?
Speaker 1 (36:45):
They did not they So what they did was they
copied and pasted my email and then under where I
have the descriptions, they put their answers. So it was
very like it required effort to then go delete those
names from their copy and paste.
Speaker 8 (37:01):
Oh, very fishy.
Speaker 1 (37:03):
It's very strange to me that they won't discuss Cameyon,
Eugene Celia, Darlene Barnes or Mark Olberry, because I think
those are all very strong cases and there is no
way that Celia Darlene Barnes, Cameyon Eugene are not on
Hollow's radar.
Speaker 6 (37:22):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (37:22):
I mentioned Camyon Eugene to him on the phone with
him two years ago. He said, he said he wasn't
aware of that case.
Speaker 11 (37:31):
Really, really, do you believe that in their heads that
this couple victim involved an older woman than I guess
if they were looking in the early days and came
across that case, you know, they would have just ruled
it out in that.
Speaker 5 (37:47):
Sense, Also because the police there were so adamant that
it was this rogue wave.
Speaker 8 (37:52):
Who are the Allensburg couple?
Speaker 6 (37:54):
Do we know that's true?
Speaker 1 (37:56):
We still don't know. And now I'm wondering if the
Ellensburg couple is their name for the unknown couple.
Speaker 8 (38:03):
Yeah, I'm wondering that too.
Speaker 4 (38:05):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (38:05):
Yeah, I think from what I what I gather, the
reason why they were looking into hunters is from an
Ellen's for phone ping m.
Speaker 4 (38:13):
Hm, So I think that might be correlated to that couple.
Speaker 1 (38:18):
I think it is feasible to at least narrow down
where this murder took place. I started looking into where
pine trees are in Washington State and where there's a
valley that has a trafficked road in it, and there
are fewer options than one would think.
Speaker 7 (38:40):
I wonder if it might be a good thing. If
they're not answering on some of those things, maybe they're
looking deeper into that. Yeah, hopefully I would think that
old Barry, they would if they didn't have any information
or weren't interested in it, then maybe they would have
just deferred you to the Texas Rangers.
Speaker 1 (38:57):
Again, exactly, That's what I'm thinking. I think them not
responding to specific cases is almost more telling than them Yeah, responding.
Speaker 4 (39:06):
I agree. Well, I mean, at the same time, with
like Tidwell, you know that could be a push to
have you actually confront the local jurisdictions to where with
the information and see if they pushed up to the
FBI eventually.
Speaker 7 (39:20):
Yeah, I'd be really excited to see what they say
about the the missing people that they didn't answer about.
Speaker 1 (39:26):
Yeah. What's interesting to me is like those are some
of the ones that make the most sense to me.
I mean, Celia Darlene Barnes like fits his m O perfectly.
It's in the area at the time. I mean, I
know we differ on Vollandroff and Hyatt, and then old
Berry to me is of all the cases we've looked into,
probably the most likely keys.
Speaker 4 (39:48):
M M. Yeah, I think the Oldberry case is very,
very interesting. After getting reading that case file, yeah, it's
I think there's definitely something worth pursuing. Their with Cam
and Eugene, I just don't think that that's the couple
that he killed in Washington based upon the FBI interviews,
doesn't mean that he wasn't a part of it.
Speaker 1 (40:19):
Okay. So now I just want to briefly go over
the stuff that the other stuff they didn't respond to.
Speaker 8 (40:24):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (40:25):
So I mentioned the Christina encounter, the Hawk Mountain encounter.
They did not respond to that. I mentioned the discuss comments.
They did not respond to that. I mentioned cash tips
in Santa Rosa and Franconia, New Hampshire. They did not
respond to that. I mentioned the newspapers found in his house.
(40:48):
They did not respond to that. I mentioned the Amish
couple who rented his house. They did not respond to that.
I mentioned the aerial photos we got of his house
from two thousand and one. They did not respond to that.
I mentioned the Minnesota Vikings sighting. They didn't respond to that.
I mentioned the multiple sightings in Johnson, Vermont. They did
not respond to that. I asked clarifying questions about NamUs,
(41:11):
so was there ever any discussion about how specific names
ended up on his computer other than that of the
couriers in Deborah Feldman didn't respond. I asked about the
geographic clusters from the name is forty five. They didn't respond.
I asked about whether there was any evidence that he
has returned to the scenes of his crimes to either
place or tamper with evidence. They didn't respond. I asked
(41:34):
about a few different timeline anomalies, like the Grand Forks,
the Las Vegas airline records being in conflict with the
cell phone records, fishing licenses, and different places on the
same weekend, and they didn't respond to any of that
except the construction job question. I asked, so again they
(41:56):
had to go through and like delete all that other
stuff and just respond to that one thing. Asked about
Deborah Feldman's remains, no response. A cash on Keenai Peninsula,
no response. A mobile outomobile Alabama carjacking no response, and yeah,
that's what they did not respond to. Interesting, So yeah,
that's all of that. We recorded those conversations less than
(42:31):
forty eight hours after receiving those thirty six answers, and
for everyone but chas in me, it was their first
time hearing the responses. Those answers, and in some cases
lack thereof, have since inspired a lot of conversation, research
(42:51):
and re examination. We're preparing case studies with tips and
interviews to send to the FBI while I wait to
finally sit down with Special Agent Hala and talk face
to face about the key's investigation. Because while these answers
are at times both frustrating and exciting, we cannot forget
(43:16):
that these answers are just the beginning.
Speaker 12 (43:20):
If one step can get us back up on our toes,
why don't we run until there's no way left to go. Oh,
let's push your head, push yourselves instead. You're young, you
can't look back to you girls have to crawl through
(43:41):
the try swell learning had again?
Speaker 8 (43:45):
Well learn how agree.
Speaker 12 (43:50):
Now the kick and through the class will learning half
stead to learning power speed.
Speaker 1 (44:06):
This episode was written, researched, edited and produced by Me
your host Josh Hallmark. It featured Shana Wilensky, Michelle Tooker,
Jordan Taylor, and Joshua Ash and Dakota Williams from Somewhere
in the Pines. This episode was made possible by the
following Patreon producers Amelia Hancock, Amy Basel and Marie Cash
and at El, Ash Fish, Becky c, Benjamin, Choppa, Fong, Casey, Jensen, Richardson,
(44:27):
Christina Sissone, Dale Accident, Drew Ipond, Heather Horton, Whedon, Gillian Natale,
Kathleen stud Kendall, C Lona Holiday, Lauren f Linley, tuscoff
Manolas Bulcus, Nicole and Dennis Henry, Nicole Gooseman, Pink s C.
Shelley Brewer, Sherry D. Trista, Tuesday Woodworth, Zach Ignotowitz, Warren,
Beth McNally, John Comrie, Jordan m Jordan Taylor, Michael Beer,
Sarah C Shawna, Harden's Spooky Express, and Lydia Fiedler. Thank
(44:50):
you to Studio Both Anne's newest Patreon supporters, Gina Perkins,
Katie Paul, Gina s Sugar, k Allison, Patricia l Emil Sapphire, Bear,
Katerina B Michael g Julie B, Tracy W, Ryan S
and Megan A. To support the investigation and get AD
free episodes, go to Patreon dot com, slash Studio both
(45:11):
and This episode included music by William Hellfire, Radical Face
Wife and Sergei Cheramisanoff with featured music by Koshka. True
Crime Bullshit will return on December fifth.
Speaker 12 (45:54):
Last will Apprehension and so clear that the flute to
feel the land of one stood.
Speaker 13 (46:06):
Well three deep after falling drop swell.
Speaker 2 (46:12):
Half.
Speaker 13 (46:14):
Burning had read now kicking down the glass wall, half
stead tall, burn house speaking.
Speaker 7 (46:28):
This lazy.
Speaker 12 (46:29):
I've been holding steady. I've been holding steady, and lately
I've been holding steady. I've been holding steady.
Speaker 8 (46:50):
The time the swift so.
Speaker 13 (46:53):
Cold of.
Speaker 6 (46:56):
Sets me.
Speaker 1 (47:05):
Huw scene.
Speaker 13 (47:10):
Stop instead, story scene says, instead show you see.
Speaker 6 (47:29):
It's start instead. Story scene
Speaker 8 (47:42):
Instead, co show
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