October 6, 2025 • 44 mins
Josh goes over the investigation into Israel Keyes's death; including what was found in his cell, what led to it, and how it happened. Plus new information opens an online can of worms, and sends Josh to Washington state.
This episode was written, researched, edited, and produced by Josh Hallmark.
Additional research by: Shana Wilensky, Michelle Tooker, and Jordan Taylor.
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This episode was written, researched, edited, and produced by Josh Hallmark.
Additional research by: Shana Wilensky, Michelle Tooker, and Jordan Taylor.
This is a Studio BOTH/AND production:
www.truecrimebullshit.com / bothand.fyi
For an ad-free experience: www.patreon.com/studiobothand
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Music by: Radical Face, Sero, Helvv Kryd, and Nocturne.
Featured song by: Stars.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Consider supporting Studio both And on Patreon. Patrons have access
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(00:31):
Both And production.
Speaker 2 (00:36):
From my perspective, though, even if they were to officially
charge me at this point, it's not.
Speaker 3 (00:44):
I like it would be real breaking news anyway. I
think you know, in some.
Speaker 2 (00:49):
Ways it would because no law enforcement person has ever
confirmed that your right, So it was just the confirmation
of everyone's current speculation.
Speaker 3 (00:58):
These acts all second So I I don't I'm not
interested in it from that point.
Speaker 4 (01:05):
I was just interested in it from a logistic plaining.
Speaker 3 (01:08):
Where do they have to fly me to Raman?
Speaker 4 (01:10):
They're gonna charge me or those are some of the questions.
Speaker 3 (01:14):
But not to get there is it one one we
talked on Monday.
Speaker 5 (01:25):
They just have more than Yeah, yeah, you.
Speaker 3 (01:34):
Gotta take a leader anything that.
Speaker 1 (01:40):
You're These are the final words that Israel Keys would
ever utter to the FBI. On November twenty ninth of
twenty twelve. Unbeknownst to the FBI, they would conduct their
final interview with Keys. It would be perhaps his most
revealing interview, but just two and a half days later,
(02:05):
he'd be dead. This is true crime bullshit. The serialized
Investigation into Israel Keys Season seven, episode two in Blood.
(02:33):
In the weeks leading up to Keys's death, the FBI
was escalating things in the interview room, and it seemed
to be coming clear to Keys that he was running
out of both bargaining tools and time. He'd given the
FBI enough that they knew where and how to put
pressure on him. Over the course of eight and a
(02:54):
half months, he'd given up as little information as possible,
presumably as a means to maintain the relationship while getting
what he wanted. But over time those little bits of
information had piled up. The FBI knew that Deborah Feldman
was buried near Tupper Lake, at an S shaped curve
(03:15):
in the Raquet River. In fact, one week before Keys
died by suicide, he was supposed to guide the FBI
from the Tupper Lake bank robbery to the area that
Deborah's remains were, but he didn't show up. He stayed
in a cell, but the FBI weren't rolling over anymore.
(03:37):
In his final interview, they pressured him to try again
the following week.
Speaker 3 (03:42):
So talking about other crimes, you know, we.
Speaker 4 (03:47):
Wanted to kind of pick up where we left off
on some things, giving any information that you might be thinking.
Speaker 3 (03:53):
About over the last few weeks right related to that.
And I think we had some updates.
Speaker 6 (03:59):
On the New York.
Speaker 3 (04:02):
When do we start there? Okay? And I and also
thought the live feed. I wanted to jump into that
cause I know we came over on.
Speaker 6 (04:10):
Today.
Speaker 3 (04:11):
We had it set up. We had a couple of
guys up in Tupper Lake to go over the bank,
to go over the bankrupt.
Speaker 7 (04:19):
Yeah, in all fairness, i'd ever set up a specific day,
but it actually would have worked because my turney didn't
show up till that afternoon.
Speaker 8 (04:31):
Alright, well it didn't work that day, but we uh,
we had hoped to have it set up today since
we when we found you were was gonna work for today,
but Albanie had some other stuff come up. But I
have to say it was pretty cool. We tested it
in the way that just so you have an idea
of what it looks like and what to expect, because
we'll try to set something up.
Speaker 3 (04:48):
For next week. But we did two laptops. One of
them was essentially like a tracker, so you had an
over an overhead.
Speaker 8 (04:58):
GPS that kind of you. And then the other one
was alive heat actually from the camera. And then the
plant we had speakerphone.
Speaker 3 (05:05):
So then you can say you don't go right here,
go left here.
Speaker 8 (05:07):
And our plan was just to use his stop lakes
a little more remote than.
Speaker 3 (05:11):
Doing it in a city.
Speaker 8 (05:12):
We wanted to use tumble Lake and just tackle the
bankrupty because that.
Speaker 3 (05:16):
Was make sure we had self reception or wherever they
cause depending on where they where they're at, they have
to use.
Speaker 8 (05:23):
Sometimes they use satellite sometimes, so we're going to use
different types of things in order.
Speaker 3 (05:26):
To bring them. Wow.
Speaker 9 (05:28):
And I see it's kind of see assume some of
these places we're gonna be cell.
Speaker 5 (05:32):
Phone only to people's expectations.
Speaker 7 (05:36):
All those CSI shows.
Speaker 1 (05:39):
They still can't usually get put things sold in twenty minutes.
Speaker 3 (05:42):
Yeah really it's an hour show.
Speaker 2 (05:43):
But I'm picturing the Google Earth Car when driving around right, Yeah,
gus one of those, so.
Speaker 3 (05:53):
We like to still do that. Yeah, and I don't.
I don't have a day yet. I don't know if
probably wasn't that there wasn't if there there wasn't much.
I mean, it wasn't something typically the morning.
Speaker 5 (06:10):
Works for you, right, because that's for the four hour
time typically if we could get that, Yeah, there's kind
of everyone and don't wanna drive three hours again, and
maybe we could just do it and out then here.
Speaker 3 (06:22):
But we thought the memory lane trip uh uh Tupper
Lake would be more interesting maybe for both of us.
Speaker 2 (06:29):
Yeah, well, I spent a lot of time twoperly, I'm
sure we even find our way over TI out.
Speaker 3 (06:39):
So you think next week, yeah, I I don't have
a specific day yet.
Speaker 8 (06:42):
Well, we're kind of setting up a date next week
and we'll do it like we did this time, early
enough that if.
Speaker 3 (06:47):
You've had other stuff, right, try not to sick. Yeah,
we could conflict with that so that we could get
your guy there by mid morning either, right. Yeah, I
didn't realize you guys haven't when all, I don't know.
Speaker 7 (07:02):
On the tumper Lake thing, you had agents up there
with the cameras, but you just wanted to talk about.
Speaker 3 (07:08):
The bank robbery or were you.
Speaker 5 (07:09):
Well, we what we had set up was we just
had them at the bank robbery parking lot to show
you the LIFEbeat that we could do.
Speaker 3 (07:18):
We didn't talk about whatever you want to talk about.
We didn't have any expectations.
Speaker 10 (07:22):
But we thought the natural progression because of what we've
been talking, would be in that general area.
Speaker 3 (07:27):
So we wanted to get things moving there, right, you know.
And if you wanted to just like pull out of
the parking lot and then take us to the River Bend,
but yeah, you would be driving.
Speaker 5 (07:41):
Yeah, it would be like you'd been driving, because we
thought maybe that's how it's.
Speaker 6 (07:45):
Gonna have to be eventually.
Speaker 5 (07:46):
Maybe is that you might have to be in the
driver's seat so to speak, to see you know, landmarks
or whatever you need to see.
Speaker 1 (07:53):
It had been clear early on that Keys didn't want
the FBI to know anything about Deborah Feldman, her abduction
or what he did to her. He got cag he
got mad, he lied whenever they asked about her, and
(08:13):
now the FBI were closer than ever to finding her.
The Tupper Lake wasn't the only area that they were
putting pressure on Keys. In that final interview, they also
started talking about digging up the Port Angelus cash.
Speaker 9 (08:31):
Well.
Speaker 3 (08:31):
The other questions aren't related to any I mean one
in New York. The song they want directly related. I
made it take as far.
Speaker 7 (08:38):
As my own gun, and some of the guns were stop.
Speaker 4 (08:43):
Well, that would give us something to go on. If
there was a cash that they'd want to treat, yeah,
that would keep would the FBI busy?
Speaker 3 (09:05):
I don't have to think about which ones I want
to part with.
Speaker 5 (09:10):
That if you thought it all still, if you thought
the one that you wanted to give up, that maybe
we might be able to work something out with our videos.
Speaker 3 (09:22):
That's a good idea.
Speaker 7 (09:23):
Well that's another issue. Is there are the other designs
I can't find just in satellite that so yeah.
Speaker 3 (09:29):
General areas. Yeah, well, if you gave them a general area,
they could probably get some.
Speaker 11 (09:33):
We we just have to have enough information to get them.
Speaker 10 (09:35):
On them, you know, the tech person to encompass that area.
Speaker 8 (09:40):
Right.
Speaker 1 (09:41):
So again, it you know, would be a cash it's
not related to anything that you're really not giving up
any of your cards to trade with.
Speaker 3 (09:46):
Well, that's the issue. They're all related to stuff.
Speaker 6 (09:48):
They're just.
Speaker 11 (09:51):
Yeah, I just have to.
Speaker 3 (09:55):
I'll have to think about it.
Speaker 2 (09:56):
Well, they want to try and remember what's in yeah, yeah,
but it's.
Speaker 6 (10:00):
Sort of interesting for you too.
Speaker 3 (10:02):
You'll get to see what's in there and you'll get
to see him again. YEA, one of those old ship moments.
You dig it up and I think, what's Israel? There's
been too many?
Speaker 2 (10:11):
Yeah, I've enough, I've had my.
Speaker 11 (10:13):
Share for the year.
Speaker 9 (10:14):
Oh yeah, this is just the way.
Speaker 3 (10:17):
What about a cash that they can work on for
next week? Well, the easiest it would be Washington, So
I don't.
Speaker 6 (10:29):
Don't my way.
Speaker 2 (10:29):
Around there a little better, but I have.
Speaker 3 (10:40):
I'll try to remember what's in it? Do you want
him to lie? Do you want him to line it up?
Speaker 5 (10:43):
That's the thing.
Speaker 6 (10:44):
It can't be.
Speaker 3 (10:44):
You can't make the decision that day because they won't
have time to Yeah, they won't have time to line
it up. You think what I'm going to life?
Speaker 6 (10:53):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (10:53):
Yeah, but do you think about it.
Speaker 6 (10:54):
Over the weekend or something.
Speaker 3 (10:57):
Yeah, And if there's anything you want like it, give
me like an hour on the internet, maybe.
Speaker 6 (11:09):
A far before we do this. An hour.
Speaker 2 (11:14):
You didn't do a little, I've met, I've I've been
in Poe blackout for two longs.
Speaker 3 (11:22):
I think it's you know, you can think about that
and if it's anything.
Speaker 2 (11:25):
You want short term in terms of I was joking,
I wouldn't do that anymore.
Speaker 3 (11:28):
Now, I'm not talking about the Internet. I'm talking about like,
if you want some sort of right, I'm gonna do this,
but you wouldn't do that on the internet. If a
computer around here are just gonna go right and seem
everywhere I.
Speaker 6 (11:38):
Went, I would, uh.
Speaker 1 (11:45):
But yeah, I know, anything you know to kind of
that's finny short term goals you have, even if it's
just food or coffee, you know whatever.
Speaker 3 (11:53):
Obviously a coffee anyway.
Speaker 1 (11:55):
But you know, again, it's sort of a situation where
I think you're not giving up anything.
Speaker 3 (11:59):
Give it us help when when we need to persuade.
You know, no, I can see her. I see your
point of view. I do on this, but at the
same time I have my own frustrations right now as well.
So but even like this is productive, this will be
be just productive, you know.
Speaker 8 (12:17):
What I mean.
Speaker 2 (12:18):
You said you came over and we got stuff, and
it's only productive from a non prosecuting attorney, Well, it
already got me down enough stuff.
Speaker 3 (12:32):
It's okay, get any time.
Speaker 6 (12:37):
To work with you.
Speaker 4 (12:38):
I am from my perspective, you know, is Reel said
he's gonna do a lot of things on a short
time frame and we've been sitting here, Yeah, the months.
Speaker 3 (12:46):
Away, And believe me, I'm aware of the months.
Speaker 2 (12:50):
I'm just having a new appreciation for things being done
at a different speed.
Speaker 10 (12:55):
That's all.
Speaker 3 (12:57):
So let me just make sure I clear out the cash.
Do you have a general area now that you can
give us or do you wanna think about it? Washington R.
Speaker 11 (13:06):
But I mean.
Speaker 8 (13:09):
We have a we have offices in a bunch of places,
so we have to figure out which office we're one
and what is there anything close.
Speaker 2 (13:14):
To the abbay or well yeah, yeah, not near any abbey,
but in there that area.
Speaker 4 (13:21):
Okay, outside of Seattle, between Settle and the right.
Speaker 3 (13:27):
Have you already met those agents? Okay? So do you
want me to try to set that up for next week?
I don't know. I'm obviously not gonna know what day somewhere. Yeah,
I don't don't set up a time yet.
Speaker 10 (13:45):
I gotta try.
Speaker 3 (13:46):
And remember, once you get the computer, you can look
right now.
Speaker 1 (13:49):
If you want.
Speaker 3 (13:53):
Google, you can look at Google right now. I'm trying
to remember what's in it he has. That's probably not
gonna be now.
Speaker 2 (14:03):
Would you find it together?
Speaker 3 (14:04):
We'll just open it up and work out upon his
bass it's not that impressive. There was more concerned about
the little stuff that might be in that well wow,
things you never thought you'd be talking about.
Speaker 1 (14:27):
At six twenty three am, the day before he was
scheduled to meet with the FBI again, Keys was found
dead in his prison cell, and what he left behind
would create absolute chaos in both the prison and the investigation.
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Speaker 10 (16:55):
All right, it's December thirteenth, twenty twelve. It's about seventeen
sixteen hours. Let's get a partlet and seal Lorne Jacobson.
Speaker 1 (17:09):
Following Keys's suicide, an investigation was conducted by the Alaska
Bureau of Investigation and Department of Public Safety officer Scott
Bartlett find out how exactly Keys was able to slit
his wrists, write multiple messages in his own blood on
his cell walls, strangle himself, and slowly bleed out without
(17:30):
anyone in the prison noticing. And their primary focus was
on Lorne Jacobson, the corrections officer on patrol during those
early morning hours of December twod won't you.
Speaker 11 (17:43):
Tell me about your checks?
Speaker 8 (17:45):
Like?
Speaker 6 (17:45):
How do you do checks approxibally every thirty minutes?
Speaker 11 (17:50):
Are you like?
Speaker 10 (17:51):
Are you like is there a mandat or is there
a rule that says you need to do it every
thirty minutes or every half hour or twice an hour.
Speaker 6 (17:59):
That's like twice an hour.
Speaker 9 (18:00):
Yea, yeah, about every thirty minutes to give her, you know,
depending on They don't want you to do it exactly
on the minute if you just you know, cause people
can key in on it.
Speaker 6 (18:12):
But I mean a lot of times it uh, if
you don't get some kind of rhythm going, then it's
easy to well yeah, yeah, it all.
Speaker 9 (18:22):
Well, now I didn't want to do it at thirty minutes,
and now the phone ring and something happens, and you
go long any way, I guess I I try and
do it at thirty minutes, but I mean, things do happen,
So yeah, okay, how many checks do you think you
made that night? Let's see, I would imagine around twenty
(18:52):
something checks because uh, you know, the I get broke out,
they do checks then, so I guess there's like twenty.
Speaker 6 (19:00):
Four checks in an hour or in a shift. Okay,
two times twelve twenty four or so.
Speaker 11 (19:06):
So the first few checks he was probably still up
and about.
Speaker 9 (19:10):
Oh yeah, yeah, because I had him out uh for
law library somewhere around nineteen hundred dollars to somewhere around
twenty one hundred dollars in.
Speaker 6 (19:18):
There, so he was.
Speaker 9 (19:22):
Basically changed A A A desk or a bench that
pulled it to the floorway he uh was his computer
thing at the.
Speaker 11 (19:33):
Of the public defenders. Yeah, okay, after.
Speaker 10 (19:38):
Uh you said I lights howt he went into his
bed and covered up. At any point after that during
your check? Did you notice a movie at all?
Speaker 11 (19:51):
Anything?
Speaker 2 (19:52):
Not?
Speaker 9 (19:52):
Not that I recall that he he was kind of
one of those guys that didn't move around. I mean
the other nights he didn't. You know, some guys are
up the out the window, but he kind of.
Speaker 11 (20:03):
Stayed pretty still, I.
Speaker 6 (20:05):
Guess for a better word. Most of the you know,
the other nights, you know, it all looked about normal.
Speaker 11 (20:10):
Yeah, okay. When you do a check, do you look
in every cell every single time?
Speaker 6 (20:20):
Yeah?
Speaker 8 (20:20):
You do?
Speaker 11 (20:21):
Okay, And what are you looking for when you're look
in the cell?
Speaker 9 (20:24):
I'm looking to see that you know, basically since its
lights out, that they're in the bunk. But there's somebody
in the bunk and you know that they're there.
Speaker 6 (20:34):
Okay.
Speaker 11 (20:34):
Did you notice anything out of place?
Speaker 3 (20:38):
No?
Speaker 9 (20:40):
You know, that's one of the you know, things that
you know, I've thought back about. It was like I
never noticed anything different.
Speaker 1 (20:50):
Bartlett interviewed Jacobsen for close to three hours, and it
is one of the most infuriating interviews I've ever listened to,
and I've listened to more than forty hours of Keys
being interviewed by Russo Feldus and Bell.
Speaker 10 (21:08):
And I want you to understand that I'm not here
on behalf of doc or anything like that. I don't
know what they're doing, but I don't know the reasons
you're on administrative leave.
Speaker 11 (21:20):
I have no idea.
Speaker 10 (21:21):
I haven't spoken to them about that, so I'm just
here for my case. But I mean, I think it's
I looked at the video and you walk by it
several times, and I was able to see into the cell,
and I was able to see a pool of blood.
And if I can see that from a video across
(21:42):
the mod that's up in the ceiling or up on
the wall, up on the wall, I kind of find
it hard to imagine that you wouldn't be able to
see the pool of blood when you walked right by
the cell. And I think you walked by it after
I was able to see it. You walked by it
at least eight times. Mkay aw we least I would say, I.
Speaker 6 (22:03):
Don't know, you know, And I I've thought about that too,
And I know that.
Speaker 9 (22:09):
Like some of the cells are missing, paint off the floor,
so like there's patches of floors. And I honestly I
never saw the blood. I mean, I don't really look
at the floor when I'm looking in there.
Speaker 6 (22:21):
I know he's on the bunk, so you know, you go, Okay,
he's on the box, Yeah, there he is.
Speaker 11 (22:26):
And I I guess I think I could look in
that general area.
Speaker 10 (22:29):
You would probably have to see the blood though, cause
there it's a dark reddish blood and then you've got
the white blue floor or gray floor whatever it is.
Speaker 11 (22:39):
Yeah, it would stand out.
Speaker 6 (22:41):
I'm sure.
Speaker 9 (22:42):
I I I thought about that a million times, and
I did not see it. Well, the only thing I
can say is I I don't I don't know if
it happened when you know, I don't know when it happened.
I I don't know if the other guy that broke
me out he could or if it happened during before
or after that.
Speaker 6 (22:58):
I asked the the day shift officer who found it,
I said, did you see the pool of blood? He said,
I didn't see anything until we turned the lights on.
Speaker 11 (23:07):
Well, he didn't do any checks until they turned the
lights on.
Speaker 6 (23:10):
Yeah, so, but like you're saying, you could see it
from the camera, but it I mean.
Speaker 11 (23:13):
Was it from the camera in the dark, you know?
Speaker 10 (23:16):
And I can see you walking by it, and I
can see you looking into the cell and it looks
like your head's like looking right at it.
Speaker 6 (23:23):
Well, I'm I'm looking right at him. I guess it's
my only thing I can say. I'm not looking at
a pool of blood and going to ah, I don't
see that, And I mean I'm not that way. I mean,
I mean, I don't operate that way.
Speaker 10 (23:40):
Is there any reason that Seal Smart would tell me
that you told him you saw a pool of something there?
Speaker 6 (23:50):
No, and that.
Speaker 10 (23:53):
I wouldn't necessarily say it was a pool of blood,
but you said that there was a pool of something,
and I didn't think it was a big deal or
something to that effect.
Speaker 9 (24:02):
The only thing that I ever talked to him about
is Missus Miller showed me a picture of it, and
I said that I could see the blood on the floor,
and I said, you know, it didn't in the picture
to me, it didn't look like flood.
Speaker 10 (24:14):
And I sat and watched it like slow motion, and
you can just see the thing getting bigger and bigger
and bigger and bigger. I mean, if I can, if
I'm able to see that from the video, from that crappy.
Speaker 11 (24:25):
Video, that's not a good video.
Speaker 6 (24:26):
Imagine that that video is horrible.
Speaker 10 (24:28):
It was grainy, that's a poor video, it is, And
I'm able to see that with that poor video with
the dark and everything, and it's huge.
Speaker 11 (24:38):
The blood stains like this big.
Speaker 6 (24:42):
I don't know what to say it.
Speaker 3 (24:46):
Now.
Speaker 1 (24:46):
I want to cut in here to say that I
have photos of keys A's cell and there is a
significant amount of blood, blood all over the walls, all
over his bed, all over the floor. In the specific
area that Bartlett keeps bringing up is where prior to dying,
Key seemed to be hanging over the side of his
(25:07):
bed for a prolonged period of time, where he was
bleeding into a puddle on the floor, which grew larger
and larger over time and eventually began to stream and
pool near the cell door, directly where the co O
is meant to be walking past. Throughout the interview, co
O Jacobsen says he generally only did a head check
(25:27):
at night, where he'd checked to see if a prisoner's
head could be seen in their bed, So giving him
the benefit of the doubt, maybe he was so focused
on these head checks that he completely missed the blood
all over the floor. However, inches directly above where Keys's
head was in his bed was Karakol written in large
(25:50):
block lettering in his blood, and that's overlooking significant other
artwork Keys had done in his cell prior to dying.
But it seems unlikely that anyone would miss both the
blood on the floor and the blood directly above Keys's
head on the cell wall. So Bartlett made the obvious assumption.
Speaker 9 (26:15):
Because if there was blood on the floor, I was
called for rovers, I would think he would n she
just didn't care about this guy, was No, he's not.
Speaker 11 (26:25):
I mean he's someone that I can understand people not
caring for.
Speaker 10 (26:28):
Well, this guy's crazy and you know, and and he's
you know, he's probably where he should be, and he
did horrible things to a ton of people.
Speaker 9 (26:39):
Yeah, I mean, what they've come out with after the
fact is like wow, you know, I mean what I've
seen on the news and.
Speaker 11 (26:44):
Think there's more people and this guy is an evil,
evil person.
Speaker 9 (26:49):
But you know, my job is to predict everybody and
whether no matter what they've done right, wrong and different.
I look after everybody to say I'm not vindictive. I
I I never had any pro special problems with him.
I mean, I mean some inmates are problem inmates. They
(27:11):
push your buttons, you know what I mean when they're
they're trying to get a response. I mean, he never
did any of that stuff. Like say, he asked me
to go to law library. I accommodated him. I put
him out.
Speaker 11 (27:20):
I you know, I I okay, Well, I think you
saw it.
Speaker 10 (27:26):
I think I don't know if you thought it was blood,
you may have thought of this is I'm just I'm
just telling you what I think, okay, cause I don't
know how someone could miss that. It's humongous. I mean
I went to the scene. I I I worked the scene.
I documented it. That's a huge blood stain. Huge, I
mean just a patternal alone is like a foot and
a half in diameter.
Speaker 11 (27:46):
It's huge.
Speaker 10 (27:47):
And then you got the big blood flow coming off
of it, the big book uh blood flow pattern that's
probably three feet long. It's not more, actually so, and
it's it's it's not like it's blood onlike a cherry
wood floor. It's blood on like a really light blue
(28:09):
or gray or whatever it is forlor. I mean, they
contrast so much, and there's nothing else in that cell
that's that dark other than the blanket. But it's away
from the blanket. Well yeah, yeah, it's on the floor.
And I don't know how a person could, a reasonable person,
especially someone whose job is to look into cells and
make sure that nothing's weird in there, could miss that.
(28:31):
I can't understand missing it once, maybe missing it twice,
maybe three four, I don't know how you could miss
it eight nine, whatever times it was. I can go
back and I got them all logged in, but I
didn't put a number. But there's several times you walk
by there and looked and when I can first see
the blood stain within a minute after the bloodstain pulls
(28:53):
and it gets like towards.
Speaker 11 (28:54):
The end where it stops.
Speaker 10 (28:55):
A minute later, you walk by and you look right
in there, and it looks like your head doesn't just
go like this, It goes down and you see it,
and then your head whips back and keep on going.
And then for some reason, you don't do another check
for like an hour and like fifteen minutes, and you're
supposed to do checks every hour or every twice an hour,
(29:18):
and you almost went you basically almost.
Speaker 11 (29:20):
You basically skipped two checks.
Speaker 10 (29:24):
So I mean, these are things that are you know,
when I went back to look at this video, I'm like,
that's not right, that's not right.
Speaker 11 (29:30):
This isn't adding up.
Speaker 10 (29:32):
And then that check that you go after you miss
this other two When you walk by it, you cover
your face, Yeah, you put or you put your hand
to your face. I don't know if you're covering it,
but you put your hand to your face as you're walking,
like as soon as you get to it, you put
your hand up. As you walk past, your hand drops,
(29:52):
and you don't do that any other time in the video.
So I think that might be a subconscious thing that
your mind's doing because as you don't want to see
that there, I think you think you saw something and
then you're basically trying not to see it because you
don't want it to be blood because I don't know
if because you know it is dark, I don't know.
Speaker 11 (30:13):
Looks like a pool. It could be a pool of
whatever he could have threw up. I don't know, right,
But it's not just that I talked to other people.
Speaker 10 (30:26):
And I was told that a couple of days later,
at like three o'clock when Smart was leaving, when after
he broke you out or whatever.
Speaker 11 (30:43):
As he's leaving, you guys converse right there at the door,
and you say.
Speaker 6 (30:48):
Hey, I.
Speaker 11 (30:51):
I saw a pool of something.
Speaker 6 (30:52):
I didn't know what it was.
Speaker 11 (30:56):
I didn't you know, I just saw a pool of something.
I didn't think it was a big deal. And that's
what it is.
Speaker 10 (31:02):
Well, I've got people telling me this, and it kind
of lines up with everything else that I see on
the video, and it's kind of hard for me to
ignore what I see.
Speaker 1 (31:22):
Here's what was found in Keys's cell the morning that
corrections officers discovered that he was dead. Keys was laying
face down in his lower bunk bed, a concrete slab
with a mattress pad on it. He was completely covered
by bedding which were almost entirely saturated with blood. It
(31:43):
used a bed sheet to tie a ligature around his neck.
His hand was slightly outstretched, covered in blood, next to
two coffee cups and three milk cartons, which had all
been filled with blood. Directly above the mugs and cartons
on the wall, Keys had had and written karakol in
about three inch block lettering adjacent to that. On the
(32:05):
concrete divider which connected his bed to his desk, Keys
had written in four lines of three inch lettering, if
only the blood was mine, I would spill it. But
that's not all that Keys wrote.
Speaker 6 (32:18):
On the walls.
Speaker 1 (32:21):
To the left of Karakol, Keys had written several other
things before trying to wipe them away. You can even
see blood smears where he had clearly been leaning against
the wall to write. There are multiple writings which are
smeared in and by blood. The most legible is the
number five, which appears to be followed by the number
(32:44):
four as in fifty four as in so let me
understand this. Few were found out to be one of
our famous American serial killers who had killed say fifty people,
something Keys wrote using the screen name is It, just
months before he was arrested while arguing in the comments
(33:05):
section of an Al Jazeera article. On another section of
the wall, there's crude drawings. Next to them. You can
see what is very likely the word fuck if I'm
being honest. For the most part, it's basically a roarshak.
For now you can see whatever it is you're looking for.
(33:28):
The only crystal clear words are the ones you already know,
and the number five maybe the number fifty four. But
since receiving these, the FBI has had them enhanced. An
agent Paula told Joshua from somewhere in the pines that
we'd be very excited with what they found, and yes,
(33:52):
we've already put in a foya for these newly enhanced images.
Below Keys's body was a suicide letter the nonsense stream
of consciousness scribblings you've heard a couple times before, crumpled
up and completely soaked in blood, so much so that
it's amazing that they were able to transcribe ninety eight
(34:12):
percent of it. Keys had used miscellaneous paperwork to cover
the drain in his cell, presumably so the blood would pull.
His murder weapon a makeshift knife made out of a
razor blade, attached to a small pencil and then extended
with a rolled up card. The card was from Kimberly.
(34:37):
It read, I thought you would like a card from
the Pugs letter from the human to follow soon x
x x x Kimberly. In the trash can was a
printed out picture of Sarah kissing Keys on the cheek.
It had blood stains all along the edges. Keyes's causes
(35:03):
of death were deemed to be a combination of blood
loss from the cut to his wrist, strangulation from the
ligature made out of bed sheets, and asphyxiation from being
faced down in the pillow. According to an interview with
another corrections officer, CO O. Nelson Robinson, he had allowed
Keys to have a razor on his last shift day
prior to the suicide, which he thought was either November
(35:27):
twenty seventh or twenty eight, so before Keys's final FBI interview,
and although Keys had been on suicide prevention for quite
some time. Robinson says that he was told that Keys
had been taken off suicide watch, which meant Keys could
now access both pencils and razors, but Robinson swears that
(35:50):
he made Keys check the razor blade back in after shaving.
He doesn't believe that the razor he allowed Keys to
use was the razor that Keys used to kill himself.
Other than co Jacobson receiving administrative leave, it's unclear whether
he or Robinson were ever penalized. The night before Keys
(36:25):
died by suicide, he had been using what's referred to
as the Law Library, a room in the prison where keys,
was chained to the floor and could use a laptop
provided to him by his public defender for discovery purposes.
According to interviews, Keyes's time in that law library wasn't
(36:46):
generally monitored. The laptop wasn't monitored at all, as it
was considered privileged material. What this means for us is
that Keyes had internet access while in prison. You could
read news about himself for his cases, and presumably continue
commenting on stories, message boards, and blogs.
Speaker 12 (37:14):
Instead of going directly into to the crime that you're
accused of and things like that, If you could just
visit with myself and my lieutenant and so we can
learn more about you from your perspective, I appreciate it.
Speaker 6 (37:28):
Can't do nothing.
Speaker 11 (37:30):
Where you want me to start, wherever you want to.
Speaker 3 (37:34):
Just just communicate here, let's just talk.
Speaker 6 (37:37):
They got coffee and you've got time, and I got time.
Speaker 3 (37:40):
You got time.
Speaker 11 (37:41):
I'm good, I'm good.
Speaker 6 (37:45):
We'll be here as long as you want us here.
But we want to know who you are.
Speaker 3 (37:50):
You've already read a lot about me.
Speaker 12 (37:51):
Well, I've read what I've read what other people have
written about you, and I've read blogs, and I've looked
on the internet.
Speaker 6 (37:59):
But I haven't heard from your.
Speaker 2 (38:01):
Question story about what's on the internet.
Speaker 6 (38:03):
This is a pretty big deal.
Speaker 3 (38:05):
What so my name's out there now attached to this?
Speaker 12 (38:11):
Yeah, Anchorage did a pressure release who went Anchorage PD
a couple of days ago.
Speaker 1 (38:26):
When Keys was first arrested, he was terrified at the
idea that people would know who he was and what
he did. That clip from a March seventeenth interview is
the most emotive I've ever heard him. And just hours
before he ended his own life, he was essentially googling himself,
reading stories about himself, looking up the progress in his case.
(38:50):
He had nothing left to gain and nothing left to lose.
The world knew who he was or was about to.
He had given enough and so there was nothing else
that he was willing to give. Fortunately, the FBI found more.
We found more. We all continue to find more. And
(39:10):
that's just what Halla gave me during our interview last year.
One more bit of information to send us out into
the world.
Speaker 13 (39:18):
There's a it's a private residence, but it's near Little Oklahoma,
which I never heard about until this particular time. But
it's an area in Port Angels so you can find
it on the map to kind of get an overview
of like, Okay, it's this area. You can't reveal the
address or anything like that, but some of the cold
case detectives were following up on some leads and stuff
(39:39):
and found this particular residence. It was associated with a
friend of keys and so and so we've been invited
to go out and take a look at the area
in the future and just check it out for whatever
may becomes significant from that. But that was something new
that we learned from this cold case that's been working
on this.
Speaker 3 (40:04):
Thousands of gussing day walking from my hometown square, thousands
of faces you touched, the thousands you're lost in the fire.
Speaker 1 (40:20):
Not knocking at all of the house within a gross.
Speaker 3 (40:25):
Gold rally here and you were at.
Speaker 9 (40:28):
School cum home.
Speaker 3 (40:31):
That is then.
Speaker 2 (40:44):
Thousands of person in the dark, mad lasting and a
strange number.
Speaker 1 (40:50):
Hole lights on lostbole about what.
Speaker 3 (40:57):
They lost that they know that whisper.
Speaker 1 (41:01):
This episode was written, researched, edited, and produced by me
Josh Hallmark, with additional research by Jordan Taylor and research
assistants by Shana Wlensky and Michelle Tooker. This episode featured
FBI special Agent Ted Holla, and it was made possible
by the following Patreon producers, Amy Basel, Kendall, See, Heather Horton, Wheedon,
Sherry d Dale Axton, Stephanie Taylor, Lydia Rodarte, Quayle Shelley,
(41:23):
Drew Vipond, Ameilee Hancock, Christina Sisson, Nicole and Dennis Henry,
Gillian Natalelna Holiday, Tuesday Woodworth, Zach Ignattowitz, Warren, Kathleen Studter,
and Nat L Casey, Jensen, Richardson, sc Benjamin Choppafong, Tristan Nicole, Ashfish,
Becky C Pink, gen j Cory Deatley, Robin Caroll, Lisa Jordan,
m Kate Lusier, John Comery, Kathy Nation, Carrie Jordan, t
(41:44):
Bethany Heinz, Lauren Ferry, Emily Payne, Tory Meyer, Sabrina Abbott,
Megan Inman, Ashley Cooplan, Michael Randall, and Dwayne c. Thank
you to True Crime Bullshit's newest Patreon supporters Bryan S. Brooke,
st Doctor Badass, Tory W Sarah, j Misty, c j
F Tom M, Tracy D Harley, O Kayley, b L
L zeal and Eva. To support the investigation, go to
(42:07):
Patreon dot com, slash Studio both and this episode included
music by Radical Face, Sarah Health, Creed, and Nocturne with
featured music by Stars.
Speaker 3 (42:28):
You hats all hot tats, said Das hab Tats about
(43:16):
so hab tats You right, that's.
Speaker 10 (43:22):
All you hab Tat's all so time.
Speaker 3 (43:27):
Hatats about your dad ad? You know, hat tats all
sni outside.
Speaker 4 (43:36):
So you have.
Speaker 3 (43:40):
Thousands of ghosts.
Speaker 9 (43:41):
In the day, Like.
Speaker 6 (43:44):
One day we all disappear.
Speaker 3 (43:47):
We'll walk till we get to the harbor.
Speaker 6 (43:52):
They'll never know we were here.
Speaker 10 (44:00):
Yeah,
Consider supporting Studio both And on Patreon. Patrons have access
to ad free and early episodes, bonus content, file access,
event discounts, and more, and all Patreon support goes directly
into our investigations. To support the show, go to Patreon
dot com, slash studio both And. This is a studio
(00:31):
Both And production.
Speaker 2 (00:36):
From my perspective, though, even if they were to officially
charge me at this point, it's not.
Speaker 3 (00:44):
I like it would be real breaking news anyway. I
think you know, in some.
Speaker 2 (00:49):
Ways it would because no law enforcement person has ever
confirmed that your right, So it was just the confirmation
of everyone's current speculation.
Speaker 3 (00:58):
These acts all second So I I don't I'm not
interested in it from that point.
Speaker 4 (01:05):
I was just interested in it from a logistic plaining.
Speaker 3 (01:08):
Where do they have to fly me to Raman?
Speaker 4 (01:10):
They're gonna charge me or those are some of the questions.
Speaker 3 (01:14):
But not to get there is it one one we
talked on Monday.
Speaker 5 (01:25):
They just have more than Yeah, yeah, you.
Speaker 3 (01:34):
Gotta take a leader anything that.
Speaker 1 (01:40):
You're These are the final words that Israel Keys would
ever utter to the FBI. On November twenty ninth of
twenty twelve. Unbeknownst to the FBI, they would conduct their
final interview with Keys. It would be perhaps his most
revealing interview, but just two and a half days later,
(02:05):
he'd be dead. This is true crime bullshit. The serialized
Investigation into Israel Keys Season seven, episode two in Blood.
(02:33):
In the weeks leading up to Keys's death, the FBI
was escalating things in the interview room, and it seemed
to be coming clear to Keys that he was running
out of both bargaining tools and time. He'd given the
FBI enough that they knew where and how to put
pressure on him. Over the course of eight and a
(02:54):
half months, he'd given up as little information as possible,
presumably as a means to maintain the relationship while getting
what he wanted. But over time those little bits of
information had piled up. The FBI knew that Deborah Feldman
was buried near Tupper Lake, at an S shaped curve
(03:15):
in the Raquet River. In fact, one week before Keys
died by suicide, he was supposed to guide the FBI
from the Tupper Lake bank robbery to the area that
Deborah's remains were, but he didn't show up. He stayed
in a cell, but the FBI weren't rolling over anymore.
(03:37):
In his final interview, they pressured him to try again
the following week.
Speaker 3 (03:42):
So talking about other crimes, you know, we.
Speaker 4 (03:47):
Wanted to kind of pick up where we left off
on some things, giving any information that you might be thinking.
Speaker 3 (03:53):
About over the last few weeks right related to that.
And I think we had some updates.
Speaker 6 (03:59):
On the New York.
Speaker 3 (04:02):
When do we start there? Okay? And I and also
thought the live feed. I wanted to jump into that
cause I know we came over on.
Speaker 6 (04:10):
Today.
Speaker 3 (04:11):
We had it set up. We had a couple of
guys up in Tupper Lake to go over the bank,
to go over the bankrupt.
Speaker 7 (04:19):
Yeah, in all fairness, i'd ever set up a specific day,
but it actually would have worked because my turney didn't
show up till that afternoon.
Speaker 8 (04:31):
Alright, well it didn't work that day, but we uh,
we had hoped to have it set up today since
we when we found you were was gonna work for today,
but Albanie had some other stuff come up. But I
have to say it was pretty cool. We tested it
in the way that just so you have an idea
of what it looks like and what to expect, because
we'll try to set something up.
Speaker 3 (04:48):
For next week. But we did two laptops. One of
them was essentially like a tracker, so you had an
over an overhead.
Speaker 8 (04:58):
GPS that kind of you. And then the other one
was alive heat actually from the camera. And then the
plant we had speakerphone.
Speaker 3 (05:05):
So then you can say you don't go right here,
go left here.
Speaker 8 (05:07):
And our plan was just to use his stop lakes
a little more remote than.
Speaker 3 (05:11):
Doing it in a city.
Speaker 8 (05:12):
We wanted to use tumble Lake and just tackle the
bankrupty because that.
Speaker 3 (05:16):
Was make sure we had self reception or wherever they
cause depending on where they where they're at, they have
to use.
Speaker 8 (05:23):
Sometimes they use satellite sometimes, so we're going to use
different types of things in order.
Speaker 3 (05:26):
To bring them. Wow.
Speaker 9 (05:28):
And I see it's kind of see assume some of
these places we're gonna be cell.
Speaker 5 (05:32):
Phone only to people's expectations.
Speaker 7 (05:36):
All those CSI shows.
Speaker 1 (05:39):
They still can't usually get put things sold in twenty minutes.
Speaker 3 (05:42):
Yeah really it's an hour show.
Speaker 2 (05:43):
But I'm picturing the Google Earth Car when driving around right, Yeah,
gus one of those, so.
Speaker 3 (05:53):
We like to still do that. Yeah, and I don't.
I don't have a day yet. I don't know if
probably wasn't that there wasn't if there there wasn't much.
I mean, it wasn't something typically the morning.
Speaker 5 (06:10):
Works for you, right, because that's for the four hour
time typically if we could get that, Yeah, there's kind
of everyone and don't wanna drive three hours again, and
maybe we could just do it and out then here.
Speaker 3 (06:22):
But we thought the memory lane trip uh uh Tupper
Lake would be more interesting maybe for both of us.
Speaker 2 (06:29):
Yeah, well, I spent a lot of time twoperly, I'm
sure we even find our way over TI out.
Speaker 3 (06:39):
So you think next week, yeah, I I don't have
a specific day yet.
Speaker 8 (06:42):
Well, we're kind of setting up a date next week
and we'll do it like we did this time, early
enough that if.
Speaker 3 (06:47):
You've had other stuff, right, try not to sick. Yeah,
we could conflict with that so that we could get
your guy there by mid morning either, right. Yeah, I
didn't realize you guys haven't when all, I don't know.
Speaker 7 (07:02):
On the tumper Lake thing, you had agents up there
with the cameras, but you just wanted to talk about.
Speaker 3 (07:08):
The bank robbery or were you.
Speaker 5 (07:09):
Well, we what we had set up was we just
had them at the bank robbery parking lot to show
you the LIFEbeat that we could do.
Speaker 3 (07:18):
We didn't talk about whatever you want to talk about.
We didn't have any expectations.
Speaker 10 (07:22):
But we thought the natural progression because of what we've
been talking, would be in that general area.
Speaker 3 (07:27):
So we wanted to get things moving there, right, you know.
And if you wanted to just like pull out of
the parking lot and then take us to the River Bend,
but yeah, you would be driving.
Speaker 5 (07:41):
Yeah, it would be like you'd been driving, because we
thought maybe that's how it's.
Speaker 6 (07:45):
Gonna have to be eventually.
Speaker 5 (07:46):
Maybe is that you might have to be in the
driver's seat so to speak, to see you know, landmarks
or whatever you need to see.
Speaker 1 (07:53):
It had been clear early on that Keys didn't want
the FBI to know anything about Deborah Feldman, her abduction
or what he did to her. He got cag he
got mad, he lied whenever they asked about her, and
(08:13):
now the FBI were closer than ever to finding her.
The Tupper Lake wasn't the only area that they were
putting pressure on Keys. In that final interview, they also
started talking about digging up the Port Angelus cash.
Speaker 9 (08:31):
Well.
Speaker 3 (08:31):
The other questions aren't related to any I mean one
in New York. The song they want directly related. I
made it take as far.
Speaker 7 (08:38):
As my own gun, and some of the guns were stop.
Speaker 4 (08:43):
Well, that would give us something to go on. If
there was a cash that they'd want to treat, yeah,
that would keep would the FBI busy?
Speaker 3 (09:05):
I don't have to think about which ones I want
to part with.
Speaker 5 (09:10):
That if you thought it all still, if you thought
the one that you wanted to give up, that maybe
we might be able to work something out with our videos.
Speaker 3 (09:22):
That's a good idea.
Speaker 7 (09:23):
Well that's another issue. Is there are the other designs
I can't find just in satellite that so yeah.
Speaker 3 (09:29):
General areas. Yeah, well, if you gave them a general area,
they could probably get some.
Speaker 11 (09:33):
We we just have to have enough information to get them.
Speaker 10 (09:35):
On them, you know, the tech person to encompass that area.
Speaker 8 (09:40):
Right.
Speaker 1 (09:41):
So again, it you know, would be a cash it's
not related to anything that you're really not giving up
any of your cards to trade with.
Speaker 3 (09:46):
Well, that's the issue. They're all related to stuff.
Speaker 6 (09:48):
They're just.
Speaker 11 (09:51):
Yeah, I just have to.
Speaker 3 (09:55):
I'll have to think about it.
Speaker 2 (09:56):
Well, they want to try and remember what's in yeah, yeah,
but it's.
Speaker 6 (10:00):
Sort of interesting for you too.
Speaker 3 (10:02):
You'll get to see what's in there and you'll get
to see him again. YEA, one of those old ship moments.
You dig it up and I think, what's Israel? There's
been too many?
Speaker 2 (10:11):
Yeah, I've enough, I've had my.
Speaker 11 (10:13):
Share for the year.
Speaker 9 (10:14):
Oh yeah, this is just the way.
Speaker 3 (10:17):
What about a cash that they can work on for
next week? Well, the easiest it would be Washington, So
I don't.
Speaker 6 (10:29):
Don't my way.
Speaker 2 (10:29):
Around there a little better, but I have.
Speaker 3 (10:40):
I'll try to remember what's in it? Do you want
him to lie? Do you want him to line it up?
Speaker 5 (10:43):
That's the thing.
Speaker 6 (10:44):
It can't be.
Speaker 3 (10:44):
You can't make the decision that day because they won't
have time to Yeah, they won't have time to line
it up. You think what I'm going to life?
Speaker 6 (10:53):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (10:53):
Yeah, but do you think about it.
Speaker 6 (10:54):
Over the weekend or something.
Speaker 3 (10:57):
Yeah, And if there's anything you want like it, give
me like an hour on the internet, maybe.
Speaker 6 (11:09):
A far before we do this. An hour.
Speaker 2 (11:14):
You didn't do a little, I've met, I've I've been
in Poe blackout for two longs.
Speaker 3 (11:22):
I think it's you know, you can think about that
and if it's anything.
Speaker 2 (11:25):
You want short term in terms of I was joking,
I wouldn't do that anymore.
Speaker 3 (11:28):
Now, I'm not talking about the Internet. I'm talking about like,
if you want some sort of right, I'm gonna do this,
but you wouldn't do that on the internet. If a
computer around here are just gonna go right and seem
everywhere I.
Speaker 6 (11:38):
Went, I would, uh.
Speaker 1 (11:45):
But yeah, I know, anything you know to kind of
that's finny short term goals you have, even if it's
just food or coffee, you know whatever.
Speaker 3 (11:53):
Obviously a coffee anyway.
Speaker 1 (11:55):
But you know, again, it's sort of a situation where
I think you're not giving up anything.
Speaker 3 (11:59):
Give it us help when when we need to persuade.
You know, no, I can see her. I see your
point of view. I do on this, but at the
same time I have my own frustrations right now as well.
So but even like this is productive, this will be
be just productive, you know.
Speaker 8 (12:17):
What I mean.
Speaker 2 (12:18):
You said you came over and we got stuff, and
it's only productive from a non prosecuting attorney, Well, it
already got me down enough stuff.
Speaker 3 (12:32):
It's okay, get any time.
Speaker 6 (12:37):
To work with you.
Speaker 4 (12:38):
I am from my perspective, you know, is Reel said
he's gonna do a lot of things on a short
time frame and we've been sitting here, Yeah, the months.
Speaker 3 (12:46):
Away, And believe me, I'm aware of the months.
Speaker 2 (12:50):
I'm just having a new appreciation for things being done
at a different speed.
Speaker 10 (12:55):
That's all.
Speaker 3 (12:57):
So let me just make sure I clear out the cash.
Do you have a general area now that you can
give us or do you wanna think about it? Washington R.
Speaker 11 (13:06):
But I mean.
Speaker 8 (13:09):
We have a we have offices in a bunch of places,
so we have to figure out which office we're one
and what is there anything close.
Speaker 2 (13:14):
To the abbay or well yeah, yeah, not near any abbey,
but in there that area.
Speaker 4 (13:21):
Okay, outside of Seattle, between Settle and the right.
Speaker 3 (13:27):
Have you already met those agents? Okay? So do you
want me to try to set that up for next week?
I don't know. I'm obviously not gonna know what day somewhere. Yeah,
I don't don't set up a time yet.
Speaker 10 (13:45):
I gotta try.
Speaker 3 (13:46):
And remember, once you get the computer, you can look
right now.
Speaker 1 (13:49):
If you want.
Speaker 3 (13:53):
Google, you can look at Google right now. I'm trying
to remember what's in it he has. That's probably not
gonna be now.
Speaker 2 (14:03):
Would you find it together?
Speaker 3 (14:04):
We'll just open it up and work out upon his
bass it's not that impressive. There was more concerned about
the little stuff that might be in that well wow,
things you never thought you'd be talking about.
Speaker 1 (14:27):
At six twenty three am, the day before he was
scheduled to meet with the FBI again, Keys was found
dead in his prison cell, and what he left behind
would create absolute chaos in both the prison and the investigation.
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Speaker 10 (16:55):
All right, it's December thirteenth, twenty twelve. It's about seventeen
sixteen hours. Let's get a partlet and seal Lorne Jacobson.
Speaker 1 (17:09):
Following Keys's suicide, an investigation was conducted by the Alaska
Bureau of Investigation and Department of Public Safety officer Scott
Bartlett find out how exactly Keys was able to slit
his wrists, write multiple messages in his own blood on
his cell walls, strangle himself, and slowly bleed out without
(17:30):
anyone in the prison noticing. And their primary focus was
on Lorne Jacobson, the corrections officer on patrol during those
early morning hours of December twod won't you.
Speaker 11 (17:43):
Tell me about your checks?
Speaker 8 (17:45):
Like?
Speaker 6 (17:45):
How do you do checks approxibally every thirty minutes?
Speaker 11 (17:50):
Are you like?
Speaker 10 (17:51):
Are you like is there a mandat or is there
a rule that says you need to do it every
thirty minutes or every half hour or twice an hour.
Speaker 6 (17:59):
That's like twice an hour.
Speaker 9 (18:00):
Yea, yeah, about every thirty minutes to give her, you know,
depending on They don't want you to do it exactly
on the minute if you just you know, cause people
can key in on it.
Speaker 6 (18:12):
But I mean a lot of times it uh, if
you don't get some kind of rhythm going, then it's
easy to well yeah, yeah, it all.
Speaker 9 (18:22):
Well, now I didn't want to do it at thirty minutes,
and now the phone ring and something happens, and you
go long any way, I guess I I try and
do it at thirty minutes, but I mean, things do happen,
So yeah, okay, how many checks do you think you
made that night? Let's see, I would imagine around twenty
(18:52):
something checks because uh, you know, the I get broke out,
they do checks then, so I guess there's like twenty.
Speaker 6 (19:00):
Four checks in an hour or in a shift. Okay,
two times twelve twenty four or so.
Speaker 11 (19:06):
So the first few checks he was probably still up
and about.
Speaker 9 (19:10):
Oh yeah, yeah, because I had him out uh for
law library somewhere around nineteen hundred dollars to somewhere around
twenty one hundred dollars in.
Speaker 6 (19:18):
There, so he was.
Speaker 9 (19:22):
Basically changed A A A desk or a bench that
pulled it to the floorway he uh was his computer
thing at the.
Speaker 11 (19:33):
Of the public defenders. Yeah, okay, after.
Speaker 10 (19:38):
Uh you said I lights howt he went into his
bed and covered up. At any point after that during
your check? Did you notice a movie at all?
Speaker 11 (19:51):
Anything?
Speaker 2 (19:52):
Not?
Speaker 9 (19:52):
Not that I recall that he he was kind of
one of those guys that didn't move around. I mean
the other nights he didn't. You know, some guys are
up the out the window, but he kind of.
Speaker 11 (20:03):
Stayed pretty still, I.
Speaker 6 (20:05):
Guess for a better word. Most of the you know,
the other nights, you know, it all looked about normal.
Speaker 11 (20:10):
Yeah, okay. When you do a check, do you look
in every cell every single time?
Speaker 6 (20:20):
Yeah?
Speaker 8 (20:20):
You do?
Speaker 11 (20:21):
Okay, And what are you looking for when you're look
in the cell?
Speaker 9 (20:24):
I'm looking to see that you know, basically since its
lights out, that they're in the bunk. But there's somebody
in the bunk and you know that they're there.
Speaker 6 (20:34):
Okay.
Speaker 11 (20:34):
Did you notice anything out of place?
Speaker 3 (20:38):
No?
Speaker 9 (20:40):
You know, that's one of the you know, things that
you know, I've thought back about. It was like I
never noticed anything different.
Speaker 1 (20:50):
Bartlett interviewed Jacobsen for close to three hours, and it
is one of the most infuriating interviews I've ever listened to,
and I've listened to more than forty hours of Keys
being interviewed by Russo Feldus and Bell.
Speaker 10 (21:08):
And I want you to understand that I'm not here
on behalf of doc or anything like that. I don't
know what they're doing, but I don't know the reasons
you're on administrative leave.
Speaker 11 (21:20):
I have no idea.
Speaker 10 (21:21):
I haven't spoken to them about that, so I'm just
here for my case. But I mean, I think it's
I looked at the video and you walk by it
several times, and I was able to see into the cell,
and I was able to see a pool of blood.
And if I can see that from a video across
(21:42):
the mod that's up in the ceiling or up on
the wall, up on the wall, I kind of find
it hard to imagine that you wouldn't be able to
see the pool of blood when you walked right by
the cell. And I think you walked by it after
I was able to see it. You walked by it
at least eight times. Mkay aw we least I would say, I.
Speaker 6 (22:03):
Don't know, you know, And I I've thought about that too,
And I know that.
Speaker 9 (22:09):
Like some of the cells are missing, paint off the floor,
so like there's patches of floors. And I honestly I
never saw the blood. I mean, I don't really look
at the floor when I'm looking in there.
Speaker 6 (22:21):
I know he's on the bunk, so you know, you go, Okay,
he's on the box, Yeah, there he is.
Speaker 11 (22:26):
And I I guess I think I could look in
that general area.
Speaker 10 (22:29):
You would probably have to see the blood though, cause
there it's a dark reddish blood and then you've got
the white blue floor or gray floor whatever it is.
Speaker 11 (22:39):
Yeah, it would stand out.
Speaker 6 (22:41):
I'm sure.
Speaker 9 (22:42):
I I I thought about that a million times, and
I did not see it. Well, the only thing I
can say is I I don't I don't know if
it happened when you know, I don't know when it happened.
I I don't know if the other guy that broke
me out he could or if it happened during before
or after that.
Speaker 6 (22:58):
I asked the the day shift officer who found it,
I said, did you see the pool of blood? He said,
I didn't see anything until we turned the lights on.
Speaker 11 (23:07):
Well, he didn't do any checks until they turned the
lights on.
Speaker 6 (23:10):
Yeah, so, but like you're saying, you could see it
from the camera, but it I mean.
Speaker 11 (23:13):
Was it from the camera in the dark, you know?
Speaker 10 (23:16):
And I can see you walking by it, and I
can see you looking into the cell and it looks
like your head's like looking right at it.
Speaker 6 (23:23):
Well, I'm I'm looking right at him. I guess it's
my only thing I can say. I'm not looking at
a pool of blood and going to ah, I don't
see that, And I mean I'm not that way. I mean,
I mean, I don't operate that way.
Speaker 10 (23:40):
Is there any reason that Seal Smart would tell me
that you told him you saw a pool of something there?
Speaker 6 (23:50):
No, and that.
Speaker 10 (23:53):
I wouldn't necessarily say it was a pool of blood,
but you said that there was a pool of something,
and I didn't think it was a big deal or
something to that effect.
Speaker 9 (24:02):
The only thing that I ever talked to him about
is Missus Miller showed me a picture of it, and
I said that I could see the blood on the floor,
and I said, you know, it didn't in the picture
to me, it didn't look like flood.
Speaker 10 (24:14):
And I sat and watched it like slow motion, and
you can just see the thing getting bigger and bigger
and bigger and bigger. I mean, if I can, if
I'm able to see that from the video, from that crappy.
Speaker 11 (24:25):
Video, that's not a good video.
Speaker 6 (24:26):
Imagine that that video is horrible.
Speaker 10 (24:28):
It was grainy, that's a poor video, it is, And
I'm able to see that with that poor video with
the dark and everything, and it's huge.
Speaker 11 (24:38):
The blood stains like this big.
Speaker 6 (24:42):
I don't know what to say it.
Speaker 3 (24:46):
Now.
Speaker 1 (24:46):
I want to cut in here to say that I
have photos of keys A's cell and there is a
significant amount of blood, blood all over the walls, all
over his bed, all over the floor. In the specific
area that Bartlett keeps bringing up is where prior to dying,
Key seemed to be hanging over the side of his
(25:07):
bed for a prolonged period of time, where he was
bleeding into a puddle on the floor, which grew larger
and larger over time and eventually began to stream and
pool near the cell door, directly where the co O
is meant to be walking past. Throughout the interview, co
O Jacobsen says he generally only did a head check
(25:27):
at night, where he'd checked to see if a prisoner's
head could be seen in their bed, So giving him
the benefit of the doubt, maybe he was so focused
on these head checks that he completely missed the blood
all over the floor. However, inches directly above where Keys's
head was in his bed was Karakol written in large
(25:50):
block lettering in his blood, and that's overlooking significant other
artwork Keys had done in his cell prior to dying.
But it seems unlikely that anyone would miss both the
blood on the floor and the blood directly above Keys's
head on the cell wall. So Bartlett made the obvious assumption.
Speaker 9 (26:15):
Because if there was blood on the floor, I was
called for rovers, I would think he would n she
just didn't care about this guy, was No, he's not.
Speaker 11 (26:25):
I mean he's someone that I can understand people not
caring for.
Speaker 10 (26:28):
Well, this guy's crazy and you know, and and he's
you know, he's probably where he should be, and he
did horrible things to a ton of people.
Speaker 9 (26:39):
Yeah, I mean, what they've come out with after the
fact is like wow, you know, I mean what I've
seen on the news and.
Speaker 11 (26:44):
Think there's more people and this guy is an evil,
evil person.
Speaker 9 (26:49):
But you know, my job is to predict everybody and
whether no matter what they've done right, wrong and different.
I look after everybody to say I'm not vindictive. I
I I never had any pro special problems with him.
I mean, I mean some inmates are problem inmates. They
(27:11):
push your buttons, you know what I mean when they're
they're trying to get a response. I mean, he never
did any of that stuff. Like say, he asked me
to go to law library. I accommodated him. I put
him out.
Speaker 11 (27:20):
I you know, I I okay, Well, I think you
saw it.
Speaker 10 (27:26):
I think I don't know if you thought it was blood,
you may have thought of this is I'm just I'm
just telling you what I think, okay, cause I don't
know how someone could miss that. It's humongous. I mean
I went to the scene. I I I worked the scene.
I documented it. That's a huge blood stain. Huge, I
mean just a patternal alone is like a foot and
a half in diameter.
Speaker 11 (27:46):
It's huge.
Speaker 10 (27:47):
And then you got the big blood flow coming off
of it, the big book uh blood flow pattern that's
probably three feet long. It's not more, actually so, and
it's it's it's not like it's blood onlike a cherry
wood floor. It's blood on like a really light blue
(28:09):
or gray or whatever it is forlor. I mean, they
contrast so much, and there's nothing else in that cell
that's that dark other than the blanket. But it's away
from the blanket. Well yeah, yeah, it's on the floor.
And I don't know how a person could, a reasonable person,
especially someone whose job is to look into cells and
make sure that nothing's weird in there, could miss that.
(28:31):
I can't understand missing it once, maybe missing it twice,
maybe three four, I don't know how you could miss
it eight nine, whatever times it was. I can go
back and I got them all logged in, but I
didn't put a number. But there's several times you walk
by there and looked and when I can first see
the blood stain within a minute after the bloodstain pulls
(28:53):
and it gets like towards.
Speaker 11 (28:54):
The end where it stops.
Speaker 10 (28:55):
A minute later, you walk by and you look right
in there, and it looks like your head doesn't just
go like this, It goes down and you see it,
and then your head whips back and keep on going.
And then for some reason, you don't do another check
for like an hour and like fifteen minutes, and you're
supposed to do checks every hour or every twice an hour,
(29:18):
and you almost went you basically almost.
Speaker 11 (29:20):
You basically skipped two checks.
Speaker 10 (29:24):
So I mean, these are things that are you know,
when I went back to look at this video, I'm like,
that's not right, that's not right.
Speaker 11 (29:30):
This isn't adding up.
Speaker 10 (29:32):
And then that check that you go after you miss
this other two When you walk by it, you cover
your face, Yeah, you put or you put your hand
to your face. I don't know if you're covering it,
but you put your hand to your face as you're walking,
like as soon as you get to it, you put
your hand up. As you walk past, your hand drops,
(29:52):
and you don't do that any other time in the video.
So I think that might be a subconscious thing that
your mind's doing because as you don't want to see
that there, I think you think you saw something and
then you're basically trying not to see it because you
don't want it to be blood because I don't know
if because you know it is dark, I don't know.
Speaker 11 (30:13):
Looks like a pool. It could be a pool of
whatever he could have threw up. I don't know, right,
But it's not just that I talked to other people.
Speaker 10 (30:26):
And I was told that a couple of days later,
at like three o'clock when Smart was leaving, when after
he broke you out or whatever.
Speaker 11 (30:43):
As he's leaving, you guys converse right there at the door,
and you say.
Speaker 6 (30:48):
Hey, I.
Speaker 11 (30:51):
I saw a pool of something.
Speaker 6 (30:52):
I didn't know what it was.
Speaker 11 (30:56):
I didn't you know, I just saw a pool of something.
I didn't think it was a big deal. And that's
what it is.
Speaker 10 (31:02):
Well, I've got people telling me this, and it kind
of lines up with everything else that I see on
the video, and it's kind of hard for me to
ignore what I see.
Speaker 1 (31:22):
Here's what was found in Keys's cell the morning that
corrections officers discovered that he was dead. Keys was laying
face down in his lower bunk bed, a concrete slab
with a mattress pad on it. He was completely covered
by bedding which were almost entirely saturated with blood. It
(31:43):
used a bed sheet to tie a ligature around his neck.
His hand was slightly outstretched, covered in blood, next to
two coffee cups and three milk cartons, which had all
been filled with blood. Directly above the mugs and cartons
on the wall, Keys had had and written karakol in
about three inch block lettering adjacent to that. On the
(32:05):
concrete divider which connected his bed to his desk, Keys
had written in four lines of three inch lettering, if
only the blood was mine, I would spill it. But
that's not all that Keys wrote.
Speaker 6 (32:18):
On the walls.
Speaker 1 (32:21):
To the left of Karakol, Keys had written several other
things before trying to wipe them away. You can even
see blood smears where he had clearly been leaning against
the wall to write. There are multiple writings which are
smeared in and by blood. The most legible is the
number five, which appears to be followed by the number
(32:44):
four as in fifty four as in so let me
understand this. Few were found out to be one of
our famous American serial killers who had killed say fifty people,
something Keys wrote using the screen name is It, just
months before he was arrested while arguing in the comments
(33:05):
section of an Al Jazeera article. On another section of
the wall, there's crude drawings. Next to them. You can
see what is very likely the word fuck if I'm
being honest. For the most part, it's basically a roarshak.
For now you can see whatever it is you're looking for.
(33:28):
The only crystal clear words are the ones you already know,
and the number five maybe the number fifty four. But
since receiving these, the FBI has had them enhanced. An
agent Paula told Joshua from somewhere in the pines that
we'd be very excited with what they found, and yes,
(33:52):
we've already put in a foya for these newly enhanced images.
Below Keys's body was a suicide letter the nonsense stream
of consciousness scribblings you've heard a couple times before, crumpled
up and completely soaked in blood, so much so that
it's amazing that they were able to transcribe ninety eight
(34:12):
percent of it. Keys had used miscellaneous paperwork to cover
the drain in his cell, presumably so the blood would pull.
His murder weapon a makeshift knife made out of a
razor blade, attached to a small pencil and then extended
with a rolled up card. The card was from Kimberly.
(34:37):
It read, I thought you would like a card from
the Pugs letter from the human to follow soon x
x x x Kimberly. In the trash can was a
printed out picture of Sarah kissing Keys on the cheek.
It had blood stains all along the edges. Keyes's causes
(35:03):
of death were deemed to be a combination of blood
loss from the cut to his wrist, strangulation from the
ligature made out of bed sheets, and asphyxiation from being
faced down in the pillow. According to an interview with
another corrections officer, CO O. Nelson Robinson, he had allowed
Keys to have a razor on his last shift day
prior to the suicide, which he thought was either November
(35:27):
twenty seventh or twenty eight, so before Keys's final FBI interview,
and although Keys had been on suicide prevention for quite
some time. Robinson says that he was told that Keys
had been taken off suicide watch, which meant Keys could
now access both pencils and razors, but Robinson swears that
(35:50):
he made Keys check the razor blade back in after shaving.
He doesn't believe that the razor he allowed Keys to
use was the razor that Keys used to kill himself.
Other than co Jacobson receiving administrative leave, it's unclear whether
he or Robinson were ever penalized. The night before Keys
(36:25):
died by suicide, he had been using what's referred to
as the Law Library, a room in the prison where keys,
was chained to the floor and could use a laptop
provided to him by his public defender for discovery purposes.
According to interviews, Keyes's time in that law library wasn't
(36:46):
generally monitored. The laptop wasn't monitored at all, as it
was considered privileged material. What this means for us is
that Keyes had internet access while in prison. You could
read news about himself for his cases, and presumably continue
commenting on stories, message boards, and blogs.
Speaker 12 (37:14):
Instead of going directly into to the crime that you're
accused of and things like that, If you could just
visit with myself and my lieutenant and so we can
learn more about you from your perspective, I appreciate it.
Speaker 6 (37:28):
Can't do nothing.
Speaker 11 (37:30):
Where you want me to start, wherever you want to.
Speaker 3 (37:34):
Just just communicate here, let's just talk.
Speaker 6 (37:37):
They got coffee and you've got time, and I got time.
Speaker 3 (37:40):
You got time.
Speaker 11 (37:41):
I'm good, I'm good.
Speaker 6 (37:45):
We'll be here as long as you want us here.
But we want to know who you are.
Speaker 3 (37:50):
You've already read a lot about me.
Speaker 12 (37:51):
Well, I've read what I've read what other people have
written about you, and I've read blogs, and I've looked
on the internet.
Speaker 6 (37:59):
But I haven't heard from your.
Speaker 2 (38:01):
Question story about what's on the internet.
Speaker 6 (38:03):
This is a pretty big deal.
Speaker 3 (38:05):
What so my name's out there now attached to this?
Speaker 12 (38:11):
Yeah, Anchorage did a pressure release who went Anchorage PD
a couple of days ago.
Speaker 1 (38:26):
When Keys was first arrested, he was terrified at the
idea that people would know who he was and what
he did. That clip from a March seventeenth interview is
the most emotive I've ever heard him. And just hours
before he ended his own life, he was essentially googling himself,
reading stories about himself, looking up the progress in his case.
(38:50):
He had nothing left to gain and nothing left to lose.
The world knew who he was or was about to.
He had given enough and so there was nothing else
that he was willing to give. Fortunately, the FBI found more.
We found more. We all continue to find more. And
(39:10):
that's just what Halla gave me during our interview last year.
One more bit of information to send us out into
the world.
Speaker 13 (39:18):
There's a it's a private residence, but it's near Little Oklahoma,
which I never heard about until this particular time. But
it's an area in Port Angels so you can find
it on the map to kind of get an overview
of like, Okay, it's this area. You can't reveal the
address or anything like that, but some of the cold
case detectives were following up on some leads and stuff
(39:39):
and found this particular residence. It was associated with a
friend of keys and so and so we've been invited
to go out and take a look at the area
in the future and just check it out for whatever
may becomes significant from that. But that was something new
that we learned from this cold case that's been working
on this.
Speaker 3 (40:04):
Thousands of gussing day walking from my hometown square, thousands
of faces you touched, the thousands you're lost in the fire.
Speaker 1 (40:20):
Not knocking at all of the house within a gross.
Speaker 3 (40:25):
Gold rally here and you were at.
Speaker 9 (40:28):
School cum home.
Speaker 3 (40:31):
That is then.
Speaker 2 (40:44):
Thousands of person in the dark, mad lasting and a
strange number.
Speaker 1 (40:50):
Hole lights on lostbole about what.
Speaker 3 (40:57):
They lost that they know that whisper.
Speaker 1 (41:01):
This episode was written, researched, edited, and produced by me
Josh Hallmark, with additional research by Jordan Taylor and research
assistants by Shana Wlensky and Michelle Tooker. This episode featured
FBI special Agent Ted Holla, and it was made possible
by the following Patreon producers, Amy Basel, Kendall, See, Heather Horton, Wheedon,
Sherry d Dale Axton, Stephanie Taylor, Lydia Rodarte, Quayle Shelley,
(41:23):
Drew Vipond, Ameilee Hancock, Christina Sisson, Nicole and Dennis Henry,
Gillian Natalelna Holiday, Tuesday Woodworth, Zach Ignattowitz, Warren, Kathleen Studter,
and Nat L Casey, Jensen, Richardson, sc Benjamin Choppafong, Tristan Nicole, Ashfish,
Becky C Pink, gen j Cory Deatley, Robin Caroll, Lisa Jordan,
m Kate Lusier, John Comery, Kathy Nation, Carrie Jordan, t
(41:44):
Bethany Heinz, Lauren Ferry, Emily Payne, Tory Meyer, Sabrina Abbott,
Megan Inman, Ashley Cooplan, Michael Randall, and Dwayne c. Thank
you to True Crime Bullshit's newest Patreon supporters Bryan S. Brooke,
st Doctor Badass, Tory W Sarah, j Misty, c j
F Tom M, Tracy D Harley, O Kayley, b L
L zeal and Eva. To support the investigation, go to
(42:07):
Patreon dot com, slash Studio both and this episode included
music by Radical Face, Sarah Health, Creed, and Nocturne with
featured music by Stars.
Speaker 3 (42:28):
You hats all hot tats, said Das hab Tats about
(43:16):
so hab tats You right, that's.
Speaker 10 (43:22):
All you hab Tat's all so time.
Speaker 3 (43:27):
Hatats about your dad ad? You know, hat tats all
sni outside.
Speaker 4 (43:36):
So you have.
Speaker 3 (43:40):
Thousands of ghosts.
Speaker 9 (43:41):
In the day, Like.
Speaker 6 (43:44):
One day we all disappear.
Speaker 3 (43:47):
We'll walk till we get to the harbor.
Speaker 6 (43:52):
They'll never know we were here.
Speaker 10 (44:00):
Yeah,
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