August 14, 2025 • 42 mins
As we prepare for Season 7 of True Crime Bullsh**, we're sharing episodes from the past 6 seasons that will be foundational for the upcoming season.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:09):
This is a studio both and production.
Speaker 2 (00:15):
You gotta be more curious about the cashes and stuff
now too.
Speaker 3 (00:18):
You know how many.
Speaker 4 (00:19):
Cashes are there in Washington, Washington, the.
Speaker 5 (00:25):
United States, Canada. Idea with cashes is to have something
everywhere wherever.
Speaker 3 (00:38):
You might never know when you're gonna field the need.
Speaker 6 (00:44):
I'm not.
Speaker 4 (00:46):
Tied to stay home kind of guy.
Speaker 7 (00:48):
So you know.
Speaker 8 (00:51):
There's a lot of them.
Speaker 9 (00:54):
Well a doesen't no.
Speaker 8 (01:00):
Cheese?
Speaker 2 (01:00):
Nothing that won't be that hard?
Speaker 4 (01:01):
Yeah, we got that.
Speaker 3 (01:07):
How many in Washington?
Speaker 2 (01:10):
One relative?
Speaker 4 (01:11):
How about at least one in Washington at least one.
Speaker 3 (01:14):
Is there one that's not relative that we could look for.
Speaker 4 (01:17):
No, they're all relative, really.
Speaker 2 (01:20):
Relevant to I know you said there's one in Washington
relevant to stuff we may be talking about in the future.
Speaker 4 (01:26):
But you know, well they're all relevant.
Speaker 7 (01:29):
That's what you have them for, right right, Yeah.
Speaker 9 (01:36):
They're all I mean because a lot of the stuff
in them.
Speaker 4 (01:43):
At the time that I burn him, you know it's
not mine.
Speaker 10 (01:45):
So this is true grime bullshit. I'm your host, Josh Hallmark,
and this is a serialized story of Israel keys.
Speaker 1 (02:12):
In addition to moving, disappearing, and destroying cars as a
means to cover up his crimes. Israel Keys also and
most infamously, utilized kill kits or hidden cases as a
countermeasure to conceal his crimes and hide evidence, both preemptively
(02:33):
and following the commissions of his crimes. As we're well
aware by now, the FBI only ever recovered two of
keys as cases, the Blake Falls Reservoir Cash and the
Eagle River Cash also known as the North Fork Cash.
But Keys admitted to having at the time of his
arrest less than ten caches hidden across the country. He
(02:57):
would eventually reveal that there were a tional caches in
East Texas, Port Angelus, Washington, and Green River, Wyoming, although
with varying information and efforts, none of those caches were
ever recovered. He also told the FBI that there was
a shovel and box hidden in the woods of the
Winooski Forest in Essex, Vermont, where the Blake Falls Reservoir
(03:22):
cash used to be, and he admitted that the shovel
had been used to bury his two thousand and nine
New York victim, strongly believed to be Deborah Feldman. And
while this seems pretty cut and dry, the thing about
Keys is he uses wordplay to confuse or muddle the truth.
Shifting gears a little because the statement has always just
(03:45):
been strange to me and I can't really make heads
or tails of it. And in a July twenty twelve
FBI interview, he told investigators that he considered himself more
of a bank robber than a serial killer, and that
often bank robberies were more of a high for him
than killing people, which, based on literally everything else he's
(04:06):
ever said, seems like bullshit.
Speaker 4 (04:08):
And I'm just.
Speaker 1 (04:10):
Wondering your interpretation of that statement.
Speaker 3 (04:13):
That is the name of the podcast.
Speaker 4 (04:17):
Yeah, I.
Speaker 11 (04:21):
Think it's bullshit, But there's also the possibility that he's
using word play there, Like I think he's always wanted to,
and when what I've heard of the FBI interviews, I
think he always wanted to at least seem that he
was being cooperative and forthcoming. And if he says I
(04:45):
consider myself more of a bank robber because in his
mind he's thinking, well, I've definitely robbed more banks than
i've killed people, then he's actually making an accurate statement.
Without making an accurate statement clearly being a serial killer
and killing you.
Speaker 12 (05:01):
Know, perhaps a dozen or more victims, is far more
significant than robbing twenty five banks. So but at the
same time, could he rationalize that statement in his head
and do it to such a degree that he feels
that he's being forthcoming, Yeah, he could probably do that.
(05:23):
So I think it's it's probably part fact, part bullshit,
and part of just a way that he he played
little psychological games with himself and with others too.
Speaker 7 (05:36):
And mostly things were buried. I know there was one
here that was it was above ground, spoke pretty much.
Speaker 5 (05:42):
It wasn't really a cash though, Oh yeah, so it
was was.
Speaker 4 (05:54):
Disposable materials.
Speaker 1 (06:01):
It's fair to say that, based on Keys's own definition,
or at least how he'd like his work to be defined,
hastily put together, kill kits wouldn't be considered real caches,
thus excluding, by his own words, the Houston Airport bag
and the Eagle River cash. We also know that Keys
(06:23):
moved his cash as often generally, like with the Weanuski
cash following his use of them in the commission of
a murder. The Wanuski River cash was created on either
April tenth or April eleventh of two thousand nine, just
hours after the likely murder of Deborah Feldman and the
(06:44):
bank robbery in tupper Lake. According to unreleased interviews with Keys,
he buried that cash using the same shovel he used
to bury his New York victim, and in that cash
among god knows what else or i items used in
that rape and murder. Along with the cash stolen from
the tupper Lake bank robbery, Key stayed at the Handy
(07:08):
Suites in Essex Junction while staking out the area and
eventually burying his cash there. It's the same hotel he'd
stay at two years later when he used that very
same cash in the abduction and murder of the couriers. Ironically,
in two thousand and nine, he paid cash for the hotel,
but on his trip where he actually murdered someone, he
(07:31):
paid in credit, leaving behind a digital footprint. In two
thousand and nine, he was also smart enough to register
his rental car with the hotel with a slightly altered
license plate number. He told the hotel he had a
rental car with a Florida plate number X seven four
(07:52):
q F two. He actually had a rental car with
a New Hampshire plate number X seven four x f Z.
It's a great demonstration of just how much Keys devolved
between two thousand and nine and twenty eleven. What's interesting
(08:12):
about this cash isn't so much what was in it,
but what wasn't in it when Keys eventually led the
FBI to it in April of twenty twelve. Prior to
abducting the couriers, Keys dug up the Wanuski Cash and
(08:34):
all of its contents, including the remaining tupper Lake money,
and following the murders, he took just about everything in
that cash with him to Maine. He left behind only
a wooden box and the shovel he used to bury
presumably Deborah Feldman and the Wanuski cash, neither of which
were ever located, largely in part because the FBI didn't
(08:57):
bring a shovel of their own when they went to
d dig up these buried items. Yes, you heard that right,
the FBI went to look for a buried kill kit
and didn't bring a shovel. On his way back to
Vermont from Maine, as we all well know, Keys got
(09:18):
rid of the courier's phones and burned the majority of
their stuff at a campground in New Hampshire, and when
he saw that the courier's car had already been discovered.
He headed straight to Constable and he told investigators that
he spent the next one to two days fishing in
upstate New York.
Speaker 13 (09:40):
As it was, they figured out pretty quick that there
was something not right about the situation. Yeah, So by
the time I think it was less than a week,
I was in mean, so by the time I got back,
drove back down through I, Uh, I realized that they
were already knew something series that happened. And just from
the crime scene tape and drove there's a ferry that
(10:05):
crosses uh. It was that big lake there, I think
it's Lake Champlain, And I was gonna take the ferry
back across.
Speaker 4 (10:13):
To New York.
Speaker 13 (10:14):
And I stopped at a little gas station and picked
up a newspaper and was reading the articles.
Speaker 4 (10:22):
About their disappearance.
Speaker 13 (10:25):
And sure enough, there was quite a bit in there
about their disappearance, Like it was clear that the police
already suspected the worst because they had had the family
do they did a press conference in the family.
Speaker 4 (10:41):
I guess they didn't appeal to the public or appeal
to the gin Dampers or whatever.
Speaker 13 (10:48):
And I didn't see that until later, but I saw
I read about it in the paper, so I just
decided to it was better to get out of Vermont
and go back to New York.
Speaker 4 (10:59):
So I moved back to New York.
Speaker 14 (11:00):
And hung out for their hung out there for a
day or two, and that's when I found found that
little boat launch.
Speaker 4 (11:12):
Did some fish in there.
Speaker 13 (11:13):
And decided that was a good spot to.
Speaker 4 (11:18):
To drop the guns.
Speaker 13 (11:19):
I was gonna keep their gun, but I decided it
was pretty obvious that it was a brand new gun,
and I was sure, pretty sure it would be registered
to them, so I figured it was probably better if
I just tossed it. I didn't want to have it
buried in the same bucket of mine. So yeah, I
tossed it.
Speaker 4 (11:40):
That reservoir, along with the parts from the ruger.
Speaker 13 (11:46):
And you tossed them in the same spot, right, Yeah, yeah,
I mean, unless the ice moved them around, they shouldn't
be more than ten or fifteen feet apart all three
of those things.
Speaker 4 (11:58):
The barrel, the barrel's out further. It's a heavy barrel.
Speaker 1 (12:05):
Sell But here's the thing. When the Blake Falls Reservoir
kill kit was actually recovered, all the guns were there,
as were the items from his rape kit. But there
were no trophies from the couriers, nor was there any money.
(12:25):
Keyes claimed to have gotten about ten thousand dollars from
the Tupper Lake robbery, and we know he used about
half of that to pay off credit card debt. Based
on financial records, there would have been close to four
thousand dollars cash in the Winooski River kill kit, and
Keys admitted to the FBI that he did keep some
(12:45):
of the courier's belongings, none of which were ever found
and either Constable, Alaska or the Blake Falls Reservoir kill kit.
So where did the trophies and the money go? And
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Speaker 4 (14:54):
So I drove started heading up to mame.
Speaker 13 (14:58):
I think I was on the interstate and I was
at a rest area somewhere, and then I realized I
should probably turn the phones off or yeah, because the
one phone I had in the front with me, I
had forgot about the other phone I had in the
back of the car and the suitcase, the one that
wasn't supposedly working, but the one I had with me
(15:21):
it rang.
Speaker 4 (15:22):
A few times on the drive, and I finally just
took the battery out of it.
Speaker 13 (15:27):
But the other one, it didn't occur to me that
it might still be able to track.
Speaker 4 (15:33):
Where it was, picking up service or whatever, so.
Speaker 13 (15:37):
I didn't think of that until I got to Maine.
Speaker 4 (15:40):
I drove straight through. I think I was up.
Speaker 13 (15:43):
For about thirty hours on that one, because I hadn't
slept all the night before, obviously, but I was Yeah.
I think I got to mat and I was pretty tired,
and then it dawned on me that other phone was
still on, So I parked alongside the road somewhere in
Maine when I was digging through the suitcase and found
it and took.
Speaker 4 (16:01):
The battery out of that one too, and then.
Speaker 13 (16:04):
Drove the rest of the way up to Maine.
Speaker 4 (16:07):
I think my brother's new there. I think my brother's due.
Speaker 13 (16:11):
I had had a rough night or something, because I
was pretty out of it by the time I got
up there. I don't really even remember what I did
when I got to Maine. I was I think I
just hung out with my brother who lived in bang where, maybe.
Speaker 4 (16:23):
Crashed on his couch for a while. And then we
had a bunch.
Speaker 13 (16:28):
Of work to do on what I had wanted to
do on the farm up there.
Speaker 4 (16:33):
So we went up north to the farm.
Speaker 13 (16:36):
And it's like a hundred and I think it's one
hundred and forty acres that my dad had bought in
uh upstate Maine. It's like a maple maple syrup farm
type thing.
Speaker 4 (16:52):
And there used to be a house there. The house
burned down and there's still a barn.
Speaker 13 (16:56):
So whenever I would go to Maine, we would usually
head up north and camp out in the barn.
Speaker 4 (17:02):
They had part of the barn converted to like a
crash pad or something, and and so we crashed there, and.
Speaker 13 (17:15):
I had rented an excavator and to do some work
on the place. And there was a party that night and.
Speaker 4 (17:23):
A bunch of a bunch of my brother's friends came over.
Speaker 8 (17:28):
Yeah, that was.
Speaker 4 (17:29):
I don't remember how it was.
Speaker 13 (17:30):
Seemed like I was only there for a few days.
Speaker 4 (17:32):
We were we were working on the place.
Speaker 13 (17:34):
And then then I was driving. As I was driving
back down to Vermont, I was I had mellowed mellowed out,
and I was starting to decide, like playing, what I
was going to do next, and stopped at that park,
the National Forest in New Hampshire.
Speaker 1 (18:00):
Keyes tells investigators that he was in Maine for a
little less than a week, but prior to that, he
tells investigators that he drove straight from the apartment building
on Pearl Street where he abandoned the courier's car, to
his brother's house in Bangor, where he crashed on the
couch for a while. Then they went up to the
(18:21):
farm in Smyrna where they had a party, then worked
on the sugar shack for a few days before heading
back down to Constable via Essex Junction. Meaning the very
earliest he could have been back in Constable was on
June thirteenth. Keys returned to Anchorage from Chicago on June fifteen.
(18:42):
It takes thirteen hours to drive from Constable to Chicago,
and most critically, both Keys and Heidi told the FBI
separately that he spent a couple nights in Harlan before
heading back to Chicago. It is impossible for Keys to
(19:03):
have spent one to two days fishing in upstate New
York looking for a new place to berry the Wenuski cash.
Keys's Blakefall's Reservoir lie brings up a few things. Most obviously,
for such a seemingly innocuous lie, what's the utility? And
(19:26):
beyond that, if he doesn't actually have the time to
spend two days or even half a day fishing and
looking for a spot to bury the Wenuski cash and
to dispose of Lorraine Courier's gun, then he either already
had a cash at the Blake Falls reservoir, or the
Wenuski cash, including the missing tupper Lake money and his
(19:49):
admitted Courier trophies, ended up somewhere else before just the
guns and rape kit were deposited and eventually found at
the reservoir. If the blake Falls Reservoir cash already existed,
there's a very clear spot on Keyes's timeline where it
(20:12):
was likely created between October twenty second and October twenty
fourth of twenty ten, just six months before the Couriers
were abducted. On October fifteenth of twenty ten, Keyes and
Sarah flew from Anchorage by way of Chicago to Boston.
(20:33):
From there, they drove to Maine in a rental car.
As was the case pretty much every October, Keyes and
his brothers were doing work on the sugar shack in Smyrna,
and according to a family friend, the Keys boys all
did some work on a friend's house nearby two but
much like in Texas two years later, on the twenty second,
(20:57):
at three point thirty pm, left Sarah with his mother,
turned off his cell phone, stopped using his credit cards,
and disappeared for two and a half days. He returned
late at night on the twenty fourth, then left with
Sarah early the next morning to catch their return flight
(21:20):
to Alaska. This is the only recorded trip Keys took
to the Northeast between the Tupper Lake robbery and the
murder of the Couriers, although there are several credible sightings
of him in the area throughout the summer of twenty ten.
In addition to the already suspicious behavior of ditching his kid,
turning off his phone, and not using any credit cards
(21:41):
for two and a half days. Keys also pays about
two thousand dollars toward his credit card debt immediately following
this trip, so it's highly likely he either robbed a
bank during those two and a half days. We've yet
to find any area banks that were robbed, or a
rendezvous with his kill kit and got some of the
(22:03):
tupper Lake money. And as the FBI suspected and Keys
would eventually admit, he uses these caches primarily in conjunction
with murders, and it just so happens that there were
two notable disappearances around that time in the Northeast. While
we don't know exactly when he disappeared, we do know
(22:26):
that Christopher Rufe's remains were discovered on November fourth of
twenty ten, and post mortem interval places his date of
death sometime around early October that year. And while I
don't think Rufe is a likely Keys victim, nor that
he would have died so soon prior to the recovery
of his remains, he's worth noting based on Keyes's proximity
(22:51):
at the time, and it should also be pointed out
that Rufe's remains were in an extremely advanced state of
decomposition for someone who had last been seen less than
two months prior to the recovery of his remains, and
some have speculated that a chemical may have been used
to advance the decomposition process. I was told that much
(23:14):
of his remains were essentially goo and there was little
to be done to identify a cause of death. There's
another disappearance that stands out from that same period, both
because of the location and a specific date, and it's
(23:35):
one we've addressed before. Based on Keyes's history patterns MO
and what he told the FBI, if Keyes abducted someone
between October twenty second and October twenty fourth, that abduction
most likely would have occurred on the night of the
twenty third. Unfortunately, there were no missing persons on Namis
(23:56):
or the Charlie Project anywhere in the Northeast who disappeared
specifically on the twenty third, nor either surrounding day, and
like I said before, we couldn't find any reports of
robberies in the area during that time frame either. It
just seemed like another black hole in the Keys timeline.
That is until Shana from the research team reminded me
(24:19):
to look up Abdullah tif Salmon, a twenty five year
old Walmart employee, disappeared from outside of Ottawa, Canada, on
October twenty third of twenty ten, while on his way
to work. We briefly discussed his case in episode four
(24:40):
of Season two Canadians Don't Count, and while there isn't
a ton of information available about his disappearance, we do
know that his family doesn't think he disappeared of his
own volition, and more significantly, he enjoyed spending his free
time at places of worship and bodies of water. Salman
(25:03):
was last seen just two hours through the Saint Regis
Mohawk Reservation from Constable, New York. The other possibility is
that Keys had a second cash somewhere between Essex, Vermont
(25:27):
and Smyrna Main that the Winooski items went into following
the courier's murder. One possibility is the cash found near
Keyes's Constable cabin, although that cash contained neither personal possessions
nor money, and Keys would have at some point between
(25:48):
the couriers and his arrest eight months later, returned to
that cash wherever it was, and at a minimum, moved
the weapons and rape kit to the Blake Falls Reservoir
and While there are no travel records placing him in
the northeast ever after June of twenty eleven, we have
friends and family placing him there, along with multiple highly
(26:11):
credible tips. At the time that Marble Arvidson disappeared and
at the time that a man wearing a fedora that
looked just like the fedora Marble disappeared in robbed a
bank in Essex, Vermont, it seems possible, if not probable,
that wherever this cash was, Keys used it to hide
(26:34):
the personal possessions of the couriers and possibly other victims
for later use, like say a fedora. There is one
third possibility that both things can be true. That the
(26:55):
Blake Falls Reservoir cash existed prior to the abduction and
murder of the courier, and that an unknown cache also
existed and probably still exists to this day somewhere east
of Essex, and if the incident on Hawk Mountain is
any indication, it's quite likely that this cache is hidden
(27:17):
at whatever campground in New Hampshire. Keys burn the courier's belongings,
and wherever that cache is, it likely still has thousands
of dollars and evidence of, at a minimum, the Courier's
abduction and murder, but likely evidence of additional crimes as well.
(27:43):
Taking what we know about the Blake Falls, Wenuski and
Eagle River caches and what he's told us about the
Texas and Port Angelus caches, there's a lot we can
discern about as patterns of behavior surrounding the creation, placement,
and use of these cash including one very important distinction
(28:04):
that we've slowly been dissecting the past season and a half,
the difference between planned and spontaneous attacks. Keyes told the
FBI that the Eagle River cache wasn't a real cache.
It was something he put together quickly just for a
single kill. He hid it several days before he returned
(28:27):
to troll the boat launch area and parking lot for
potential victims. It wasn't buried or in a home depot,
bucket or any other long term container. He simply threw
some draino zip ties, duct tape, rope, and a shovel
into a plastic garbage bag, which he hid in a
berm under leaves and debris. It's similar to what was
(28:50):
found by a hiker at the Olympic Hot Springs outside
of Port Angelus, Washington in the spring of two thousand five,
a black plastic garbage bag hidden underbrush and debris at
the base of a tree, containing condoms, zip ties, rope,
a pickaxe, and duct tape. Unfortunately, that hiker, who was
(29:14):
clearly not into true crime, threw the bag and its
contents into an embankment, never to be seen again. But
we know that this was not the cash Keys admitted
to having in Port Angelus. That was a long term
cash one he talked about moving at some point due
to possible flooding. So much like in East Texas, Keys
(29:37):
had two caches in Port Angelus, a long term cash
and a short term cash, at least two at a minimum.
Speaker 2 (29:52):
You'll be more curious about the caches and stuff, not
too you know how many cases are there in Washington.
Speaker 3 (30:00):
Washington, United States, Canada.
Speaker 5 (30:04):
Idea with cashes is to have something everywhere wherever.
Speaker 3 (30:15):
You might never know when you're gonna frail the need.
Speaker 10 (30:20):
I'm not.
Speaker 4 (30:22):
Tight, stay at home kind of guy, So you know.
Speaker 8 (30:28):
There's a lot of 'em.
Speaker 9 (30:30):
Well, I don't know a dozen, No, no, jeez, it's
nothing that won't.
Speaker 4 (30:37):
Be that hard.
Speaker 8 (30:38):
Yeah, we got that.
Speaker 2 (30:44):
I'm many in Washington. One relative.
Speaker 4 (30:48):
How about the least one in Washington at least one.
Speaker 3 (30:51):
Is there one that's not relative that we could look for.
Speaker 4 (30:53):
No, they're all relative, really.
Speaker 2 (30:57):
Relevant to I know you said there's one in one
relevant to stuff we may be talking about on the
future venue.
Speaker 4 (31:03):
Well, they're all relevant.
Speaker 7 (31:06):
That's what you have them for, right right, Yeah.
Speaker 15 (31:14):
I mean.
Speaker 4 (31:17):
Because a lot of the stuff.
Speaker 6 (31:18):
In him at the time that I burned him, you
know it's not mine.
Speaker 1 (31:21):
So notice how it's the FBI and not Keys who
insinuate that no means less than twelve. Here's the thing
about the Port Angelis Cash. We're fairly certain we know
(31:43):
where it is, and if we're correct, it's not far
from the Olympic Hot Springs. Two caches close to one another,
in an area where he likely killed multiple people, just
like Vermont, just like East Texas, and based on new information,
(32:05):
this may just be the case in Green River, Wyoming,
and in Riverside, California as well.
Speaker 16 (32:17):
I worked with Jolene and with the anchorage person who
was in charge of their evidence recovery team, and so
I would speak to Jolene and she would tell me
what was happening in interrogations and come out, and then
I would you know, put that to work on what
I was looking for. And so Jolene ran the team
(32:40):
in the instrogation room, I kind of ran the team
in at the lake. And also I then took a
different died team. I supervised a different different FBIDI team
ones from New York in a search in upstate New
York to find evidence in the Courier case. And so
it was a back and forth between Jolene bringing it,
(33:04):
stepping out of her interrogations and calling me, telling me
what he was saying about where you know, certain evidence
was supposed to be located, and then you know, us
going out and finding it. And I can tell you
that the information that he's provided as far as where
Samantha was and where mister or missus Curry's weapon was,
and then he deposited both in the water was unbelievably accurate.
(33:29):
It was right where he said we'd find it. He
had an incredible memory.
Speaker 1 (33:37):
Of all the cashes Keys had hidden across the country.
He gave the FBI Eagle River and Blake Falls Reservoir,
and there was nothing incriminating in either, nothing to connect
him to any crimes. The FBI didn't already know that
he committed. I'm sure this was not coincident. And while
(34:02):
Keys claimed at first that there were only five and
then later there were ten, based on his statements and
travel patterns, it seems that there were over the course
of his last fourteen years of life closer to nineteen
caches across thirteen different states Alaska, Washington, Oregon, California, Wyoming, Nevada, Texas, Indiana, Pennsylvania,
(34:29):
New York, Vermont, New Hampshire, and Maine. And next week
we'll get into every single one of them.
Speaker 2 (34:41):
How many guns would you say you've had over the
years plus would you go through several guns a year
in the last ten years?
Speaker 4 (34:48):
Ten years?
Speaker 3 (34:54):
I don't mean glens that are buried.
Speaker 2 (34:56):
I don't really consider mine.
Speaker 4 (35:00):
But I mean it depends on your definition.
Speaker 2 (35:03):
I know, if you take 'em, they're yours, but alright
they become yours.
Speaker 4 (35:10):
No, I mean it's.
Speaker 6 (35:17):
The guns that get buried right away, and that I
don't that I don't dig up or move around or whatever.
Those aren't you know, some of those aren't mine. That's
why they're buried.
Speaker 7 (35:33):
When you say the ones that are yours, where did
you usually get them from?
Speaker 5 (35:38):
I always got my guns from private party something else.
Speaker 4 (35:44):
Sometimes there would be I mean, you know how it's.
Speaker 5 (35:49):
Sometimes you take down license, driver's license information with somebody
you don't even know, and you know, and that's it.
Speaker 4 (35:57):
I never registered any of 'em any other.
Speaker 13 (36:01):
I'm guessing a lot of the people like got guns
from didn't have a registered in the form.
Speaker 4 (36:06):
And there's people who just swapped guns all the time,
especially up here. It's like a hobbyat or something.
Speaker 3 (36:17):
At least you getting those guns off the street.
Speaker 4 (36:20):
Right, It's kind of a lot of what I do
that could be considered public service.
Speaker 16 (36:24):
So do you, I mean, at some point in time
do you think that you would be terrible like giving
letting us know where these cases are?
Speaker 7 (36:33):
Would you remember where they are?
Speaker 17 (36:34):
Oh?
Speaker 18 (36:34):
Yeah, some of the stuff was gonna be relevant, right right, I'm.
Speaker 8 (37:00):
Just fell and ye shore if you need brnd this
star of the real mandre morn he appear, let me
(37:22):
see to the storm.
Speaker 15 (37:31):
At if your don't, you don't.
Speaker 8 (38:03):
Need them some children not telling.
Speaker 15 (38:25):
He medang still surreal to Lettings, how was your COMPLI.
Speaker 8 (38:45):
Your second side? I didn't want this hard to turn
the wrong from right? He let it change? Still sit
(39:08):
up to.
Speaker 15 (39:10):
Letting to.
Speaker 8 (39:15):
How was your COMPLI your second side. I didn't want this.
Hard to tell the wrong from right. If you're ever do,
(39:46):
if you're.
Speaker 15 (40:02):
You don't need, No, you don't need the.
Speaker 17 (40:09):
Some not chot kill it. No, I not killing, not killing.
(40:33):
Chock killing
Speaker 15 (41:21):
Became every
This is a studio both and production.
Speaker 2 (00:15):
You gotta be more curious about the cashes and stuff
now too.
Speaker 3 (00:18):
You know how many.
Speaker 4 (00:19):
Cashes are there in Washington, Washington, the.
Speaker 5 (00:25):
United States, Canada. Idea with cashes is to have something
everywhere wherever.
Speaker 3 (00:38):
You might never know when you're gonna field the need.
Speaker 6 (00:44):
I'm not.
Speaker 4 (00:46):
Tied to stay home kind of guy.
Speaker 7 (00:48):
So you know.
Speaker 8 (00:51):
There's a lot of them.
Speaker 9 (00:54):
Well a doesen't no.
Speaker 8 (01:00):
Cheese?
Speaker 2 (01:00):
Nothing that won't be that hard?
Speaker 4 (01:01):
Yeah, we got that.
Speaker 3 (01:07):
How many in Washington?
Speaker 2 (01:10):
One relative?
Speaker 4 (01:11):
How about at least one in Washington at least one.
Speaker 3 (01:14):
Is there one that's not relative that we could look for.
Speaker 4 (01:17):
No, they're all relative, really.
Speaker 2 (01:20):
Relevant to I know you said there's one in Washington
relevant to stuff we may be talking about in the future.
Speaker 4 (01:26):
But you know, well they're all relevant.
Speaker 7 (01:29):
That's what you have them for, right right, Yeah.
Speaker 9 (01:36):
They're all I mean because a lot of the stuff
in them.
Speaker 4 (01:43):
At the time that I burn him, you know it's
not mine.
Speaker 10 (01:45):
So this is true grime bullshit. I'm your host, Josh Hallmark,
and this is a serialized story of Israel keys.
Speaker 1 (02:12):
In addition to moving, disappearing, and destroying cars as a
means to cover up his crimes. Israel Keys also and
most infamously, utilized kill kits or hidden cases as a
countermeasure to conceal his crimes and hide evidence, both preemptively
(02:33):
and following the commissions of his crimes. As we're well
aware by now, the FBI only ever recovered two of
keys as cases, the Blake Falls Reservoir Cash and the
Eagle River Cash also known as the North Fork Cash.
But Keys admitted to having at the time of his
arrest less than ten caches hidden across the country. He
(02:57):
would eventually reveal that there were a tional caches in
East Texas, Port Angelus, Washington, and Green River, Wyoming, although
with varying information and efforts, none of those caches were
ever recovered. He also told the FBI that there was
a shovel and box hidden in the woods of the
Winooski Forest in Essex, Vermont, where the Blake Falls Reservoir
(03:22):
cash used to be, and he admitted that the shovel
had been used to bury his two thousand and nine
New York victim, strongly believed to be Deborah Feldman. And
while this seems pretty cut and dry, the thing about
Keys is he uses wordplay to confuse or muddle the truth.
Shifting gears a little because the statement has always just
(03:45):
been strange to me and I can't really make heads
or tails of it. And in a July twenty twelve
FBI interview, he told investigators that he considered himself more
of a bank robber than a serial killer, and that
often bank robberies were more of a high for him
than killing people, which, based on literally everything else he's
(04:06):
ever said, seems like bullshit.
Speaker 4 (04:08):
And I'm just.
Speaker 1 (04:10):
Wondering your interpretation of that statement.
Speaker 3 (04:13):
That is the name of the podcast.
Speaker 4 (04:17):
Yeah, I.
Speaker 11 (04:21):
Think it's bullshit, But there's also the possibility that he's
using word play there, Like I think he's always wanted to,
and when what I've heard of the FBI interviews, I
think he always wanted to at least seem that he
was being cooperative and forthcoming. And if he says I
(04:45):
consider myself more of a bank robber because in his
mind he's thinking, well, I've definitely robbed more banks than
i've killed people, then he's actually making an accurate statement.
Without making an accurate statement clearly being a serial killer
and killing you.
Speaker 12 (05:01):
Know, perhaps a dozen or more victims, is far more
significant than robbing twenty five banks. So but at the
same time, could he rationalize that statement in his head
and do it to such a degree that he feels
that he's being forthcoming, Yeah, he could probably do that.
(05:23):
So I think it's it's probably part fact, part bullshit,
and part of just a way that he he played
little psychological games with himself and with others too.
Speaker 7 (05:36):
And mostly things were buried. I know there was one
here that was it was above ground, spoke pretty much.
Speaker 5 (05:42):
It wasn't really a cash though, Oh yeah, so it
was was.
Speaker 4 (05:54):
Disposable materials.
Speaker 1 (06:01):
It's fair to say that, based on Keys's own definition,
or at least how he'd like his work to be defined,
hastily put together, kill kits wouldn't be considered real caches,
thus excluding, by his own words, the Houston Airport bag
and the Eagle River cash. We also know that Keys
(06:23):
moved his cash as often generally, like with the Weanuski
cash following his use of them in the commission of
a murder. The Wanuski River cash was created on either
April tenth or April eleventh of two thousand nine, just
hours after the likely murder of Deborah Feldman and the
(06:44):
bank robbery in tupper Lake. According to unreleased interviews with Keys,
he buried that cash using the same shovel he used
to bury his New York victim, and in that cash
among god knows what else or i items used in
that rape and murder. Along with the cash stolen from
the tupper Lake bank robbery, Key stayed at the Handy
(07:08):
Suites in Essex Junction while staking out the area and
eventually burying his cash there. It's the same hotel he'd
stay at two years later when he used that very
same cash in the abduction and murder of the couriers. Ironically,
in two thousand and nine, he paid cash for the hotel,
but on his trip where he actually murdered someone, he
(07:31):
paid in credit, leaving behind a digital footprint. In two
thousand and nine, he was also smart enough to register
his rental car with the hotel with a slightly altered
license plate number. He told the hotel he had a
rental car with a Florida plate number X seven four
(07:52):
q F two. He actually had a rental car with
a New Hampshire plate number X seven four x f Z.
It's a great demonstration of just how much Keys devolved
between two thousand and nine and twenty eleven. What's interesting
(08:12):
about this cash isn't so much what was in it,
but what wasn't in it when Keys eventually led the
FBI to it in April of twenty twelve. Prior to
abducting the couriers, Keys dug up the Wanuski Cash and
(08:34):
all of its contents, including the remaining tupper Lake money,
and following the murders, he took just about everything in
that cash with him to Maine. He left behind only
a wooden box and the shovel he used to bury
presumably Deborah Feldman and the Wanuski cash, neither of which
were ever located, largely in part because the FBI didn't
(08:57):
bring a shovel of their own when they went to
d dig up these buried items. Yes, you heard that right,
the FBI went to look for a buried kill kit
and didn't bring a shovel. On his way back to
Vermont from Maine, as we all well know, Keys got
(09:18):
rid of the courier's phones and burned the majority of
their stuff at a campground in New Hampshire, and when
he saw that the courier's car had already been discovered.
He headed straight to Constable and he told investigators that
he spent the next one to two days fishing in
upstate New York.
Speaker 13 (09:40):
As it was, they figured out pretty quick that there
was something not right about the situation. Yeah, So by
the time I think it was less than a week,
I was in mean, so by the time I got back,
drove back down through I, Uh, I realized that they
were already knew something series that happened. And just from
the crime scene tape and drove there's a ferry that
(10:05):
crosses uh. It was that big lake there, I think
it's Lake Champlain, And I was gonna take the ferry
back across.
Speaker 4 (10:13):
To New York.
Speaker 13 (10:14):
And I stopped at a little gas station and picked
up a newspaper and was reading the articles.
Speaker 4 (10:22):
About their disappearance.
Speaker 13 (10:25):
And sure enough, there was quite a bit in there
about their disappearance, Like it was clear that the police
already suspected the worst because they had had the family
do they did a press conference in the family.
Speaker 4 (10:41):
I guess they didn't appeal to the public or appeal
to the gin Dampers or whatever.
Speaker 13 (10:48):
And I didn't see that until later, but I saw
I read about it in the paper, so I just
decided to it was better to get out of Vermont
and go back to New York.
Speaker 4 (10:59):
So I moved back to New York.
Speaker 14 (11:00):
And hung out for their hung out there for a
day or two, and that's when I found found that
little boat launch.
Speaker 4 (11:12):
Did some fish in there.
Speaker 13 (11:13):
And decided that was a good spot to.
Speaker 4 (11:18):
To drop the guns.
Speaker 13 (11:19):
I was gonna keep their gun, but I decided it
was pretty obvious that it was a brand new gun,
and I was sure, pretty sure it would be registered
to them, so I figured it was probably better if
I just tossed it. I didn't want to have it
buried in the same bucket of mine. So yeah, I
tossed it.
Speaker 4 (11:40):
That reservoir, along with the parts from the ruger.
Speaker 13 (11:46):
And you tossed them in the same spot, right, Yeah, yeah,
I mean, unless the ice moved them around, they shouldn't
be more than ten or fifteen feet apart all three
of those things.
Speaker 4 (11:58):
The barrel, the barrel's out further. It's a heavy barrel.
Speaker 1 (12:05):
Sell But here's the thing. When the Blake Falls Reservoir
kill kit was actually recovered, all the guns were there,
as were the items from his rape kit. But there
were no trophies from the couriers, nor was there any money.
(12:25):
Keyes claimed to have gotten about ten thousand dollars from
the Tupper Lake robbery, and we know he used about
half of that to pay off credit card debt. Based
on financial records, there would have been close to four
thousand dollars cash in the Winooski River kill kit, and
Keys admitted to the FBI that he did keep some
(12:45):
of the courier's belongings, none of which were ever found
and either Constable, Alaska or the Blake Falls Reservoir kill kit.
So where did the trophies and the money go? And
more importantly, when did the trophies and money go? Why
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Speaker 4 (14:54):
So I drove started heading up to mame.
Speaker 13 (14:58):
I think I was on the interstate and I was
at a rest area somewhere, and then I realized I
should probably turn the phones off or yeah, because the
one phone I had in the front with me, I
had forgot about the other phone I had in the
back of the car and the suitcase, the one that
wasn't supposedly working, but the one I had with me
(15:21):
it rang.
Speaker 4 (15:22):
A few times on the drive, and I finally just
took the battery out of it.
Speaker 13 (15:27):
But the other one, it didn't occur to me that
it might still be able to track.
Speaker 4 (15:33):
Where it was, picking up service or whatever, so.
Speaker 13 (15:37):
I didn't think of that until I got to Maine.
Speaker 4 (15:40):
I drove straight through. I think I was up.
Speaker 13 (15:43):
For about thirty hours on that one, because I hadn't
slept all the night before, obviously, but I was Yeah.
I think I got to mat and I was pretty tired,
and then it dawned on me that other phone was
still on, So I parked alongside the road somewhere in
Maine when I was digging through the suitcase and found
it and took.
Speaker 4 (16:01):
The battery out of that one too, and then.
Speaker 13 (16:04):
Drove the rest of the way up to Maine.
Speaker 4 (16:07):
I think my brother's new there. I think my brother's due.
Speaker 13 (16:11):
I had had a rough night or something, because I
was pretty out of it by the time I got
up there. I don't really even remember what I did
when I got to Maine. I was I think I
just hung out with my brother who lived in bang where, maybe.
Speaker 4 (16:23):
Crashed on his couch for a while. And then we
had a bunch.
Speaker 13 (16:28):
Of work to do on what I had wanted to
do on the farm up there.
Speaker 4 (16:33):
So we went up north to the farm.
Speaker 13 (16:36):
And it's like a hundred and I think it's one
hundred and forty acres that my dad had bought in
uh upstate Maine. It's like a maple maple syrup farm
type thing.
Speaker 4 (16:52):
And there used to be a house there. The house
burned down and there's still a barn.
Speaker 13 (16:56):
So whenever I would go to Maine, we would usually
head up north and camp out in the barn.
Speaker 4 (17:02):
They had part of the barn converted to like a
crash pad or something, and and so we crashed there, and.
Speaker 13 (17:15):
I had rented an excavator and to do some work
on the place. And there was a party that night and.
Speaker 4 (17:23):
A bunch of a bunch of my brother's friends came over.
Speaker 8 (17:28):
Yeah, that was.
Speaker 4 (17:29):
I don't remember how it was.
Speaker 13 (17:30):
Seemed like I was only there for a few days.
Speaker 4 (17:32):
We were we were working on the place.
Speaker 13 (17:34):
And then then I was driving. As I was driving
back down to Vermont, I was I had mellowed mellowed out,
and I was starting to decide, like playing, what I
was going to do next, and stopped at that park,
the National Forest in New Hampshire.
Speaker 1 (18:00):
Keyes tells investigators that he was in Maine for a
little less than a week, but prior to that, he
tells investigators that he drove straight from the apartment building
on Pearl Street where he abandoned the courier's car, to
his brother's house in Bangor, where he crashed on the
couch for a while. Then they went up to the
(18:21):
farm in Smyrna where they had a party, then worked
on the sugar shack for a few days before heading
back down to Constable via Essex Junction. Meaning the very
earliest he could have been back in Constable was on
June thirteenth. Keys returned to Anchorage from Chicago on June fifteen.
(18:42):
It takes thirteen hours to drive from Constable to Chicago,
and most critically, both Keys and Heidi told the FBI
separately that he spent a couple nights in Harlan before
heading back to Chicago. It is impossible for Keys to
(19:03):
have spent one to two days fishing in upstate New
York looking for a new place to berry the Wenuski cash.
Keys's Blakefall's Reservoir lie brings up a few things. Most obviously,
for such a seemingly innocuous lie, what's the utility? And
(19:26):
beyond that, if he doesn't actually have the time to
spend two days or even half a day fishing and
looking for a spot to bury the Wenuski cash and
to dispose of Lorraine Courier's gun, then he either already
had a cash at the Blake Falls reservoir, or the
Wenuski cash, including the missing tupper Lake money and his
(19:49):
admitted Courier trophies, ended up somewhere else before just the
guns and rape kit were deposited and eventually found at
the reservoir. If the blake Falls Reservoir cash already existed,
there's a very clear spot on Keyes's timeline where it
(20:12):
was likely created between October twenty second and October twenty
fourth of twenty ten, just six months before the Couriers
were abducted. On October fifteenth of twenty ten, Keyes and
Sarah flew from Anchorage by way of Chicago to Boston.
(20:33):
From there, they drove to Maine in a rental car.
As was the case pretty much every October, Keyes and
his brothers were doing work on the sugar shack in Smyrna,
and according to a family friend, the Keys boys all
did some work on a friend's house nearby two but
much like in Texas two years later, on the twenty second,
(20:57):
at three point thirty pm, left Sarah with his mother,
turned off his cell phone, stopped using his credit cards,
and disappeared for two and a half days. He returned
late at night on the twenty fourth, then left with
Sarah early the next morning to catch their return flight
(21:20):
to Alaska. This is the only recorded trip Keys took
to the Northeast between the Tupper Lake robbery and the
murder of the Couriers, although there are several credible sightings
of him in the area throughout the summer of twenty ten.
In addition to the already suspicious behavior of ditching his kid,
turning off his phone, and not using any credit cards
(21:41):
for two and a half days. Keys also pays about
two thousand dollars toward his credit card debt immediately following
this trip, so it's highly likely he either robbed a
bank during those two and a half days. We've yet
to find any area banks that were robbed, or a
rendezvous with his kill kit and got some of the
(22:03):
tupper Lake money. And as the FBI suspected and Keys
would eventually admit, he uses these caches primarily in conjunction
with murders, and it just so happens that there were
two notable disappearances around that time in the Northeast. While
we don't know exactly when he disappeared, we do know
(22:26):
that Christopher Rufe's remains were discovered on November fourth of
twenty ten, and post mortem interval places his date of
death sometime around early October that year. And while I
don't think Rufe is a likely Keys victim, nor that
he would have died so soon prior to the recovery
of his remains, he's worth noting based on Keyes's proximity
(22:51):
at the time, and it should also be pointed out
that Rufe's remains were in an extremely advanced state of
decomposition for someone who had last been seen less than
two months prior to the recovery of his remains, and
some have speculated that a chemical may have been used
to advance the decomposition process. I was told that much
(23:14):
of his remains were essentially goo and there was little
to be done to identify a cause of death. There's
another disappearance that stands out from that same period, both
because of the location and a specific date, and it's
(23:35):
one we've addressed before. Based on Keyes's history patterns MO
and what he told the FBI, if Keyes abducted someone
between October twenty second and October twenty fourth, that abduction
most likely would have occurred on the night of the
twenty third. Unfortunately, there were no missing persons on Namis
(23:56):
or the Charlie Project anywhere in the Northeast who disappeared
specifically on the twenty third, nor either surrounding day, and
like I said before, we couldn't find any reports of
robberies in the area during that time frame either. It
just seemed like another black hole in the Keys timeline.
That is until Shana from the research team reminded me
(24:19):
to look up Abdullah tif Salmon, a twenty five year
old Walmart employee, disappeared from outside of Ottawa, Canada, on
October twenty third of twenty ten, while on his way
to work. We briefly discussed his case in episode four
(24:40):
of Season two Canadians Don't Count, and while there isn't
a ton of information available about his disappearance, we do
know that his family doesn't think he disappeared of his
own volition, and more significantly, he enjoyed spending his free
time at places of worship and bodies of water. Salman
(25:03):
was last seen just two hours through the Saint Regis
Mohawk Reservation from Constable, New York. The other possibility is
that Keys had a second cash somewhere between Essex, Vermont
(25:27):
and Smyrna Main that the Winooski items went into following
the courier's murder. One possibility is the cash found near
Keyes's Constable cabin, although that cash contained neither personal possessions
nor money, and Keys would have at some point between
(25:48):
the couriers and his arrest eight months later, returned to
that cash wherever it was, and at a minimum, moved
the weapons and rape kit to the Blake Falls Reservoir
and While there are no travel records placing him in
the northeast ever after June of twenty eleven, we have
friends and family placing him there, along with multiple highly
(26:11):
credible tips. At the time that Marble Arvidson disappeared and
at the time that a man wearing a fedora that
looked just like the fedora Marble disappeared in robbed a
bank in Essex, Vermont, it seems possible, if not probable,
that wherever this cash was, Keys used it to hide
(26:34):
the personal possessions of the couriers and possibly other victims
for later use, like say a fedora. There is one
third possibility that both things can be true. That the
(26:55):
Blake Falls Reservoir cash existed prior to the abduction and
murder of the courier, and that an unknown cache also
existed and probably still exists to this day somewhere east
of Essex, and if the incident on Hawk Mountain is
any indication, it's quite likely that this cache is hidden
(27:17):
at whatever campground in New Hampshire. Keys burn the courier's belongings,
and wherever that cache is, it likely still has thousands
of dollars and evidence of, at a minimum, the Courier's
abduction and murder, but likely evidence of additional crimes as well.
(27:43):
Taking what we know about the Blake Falls, Wenuski and
Eagle River caches and what he's told us about the
Texas and Port Angelus caches, there's a lot we can
discern about as patterns of behavior surrounding the creation, placement,
and use of these cash including one very important distinction
(28:04):
that we've slowly been dissecting the past season and a half,
the difference between planned and spontaneous attacks. Keyes told the
FBI that the Eagle River cache wasn't a real cache.
It was something he put together quickly just for a
single kill. He hid it several days before he returned
(28:27):
to troll the boat launch area and parking lot for
potential victims. It wasn't buried or in a home depot,
bucket or any other long term container. He simply threw
some draino zip ties, duct tape, rope, and a shovel
into a plastic garbage bag, which he hid in a
berm under leaves and debris. It's similar to what was
(28:50):
found by a hiker at the Olympic Hot Springs outside
of Port Angelus, Washington in the spring of two thousand five,
a black plastic garbage bag hidden underbrush and debris at
the base of a tree, containing condoms, zip ties, rope,
a pickaxe, and duct tape. Unfortunately, that hiker, who was
(29:14):
clearly not into true crime, threw the bag and its
contents into an embankment, never to be seen again. But
we know that this was not the cash Keys admitted
to having in Port Angelus. That was a long term
cash one he talked about moving at some point due
to possible flooding. So much like in East Texas, Keys
(29:37):
had two caches in Port Angelus, a long term cash
and a short term cash, at least two at a minimum.
Speaker 2 (29:52):
You'll be more curious about the caches and stuff, not
too you know how many cases are there in Washington.
Speaker 3 (30:00):
Washington, United States, Canada.
Speaker 5 (30:04):
Idea with cashes is to have something everywhere wherever.
Speaker 3 (30:15):
You might never know when you're gonna frail the need.
Speaker 10 (30:20):
I'm not.
Speaker 4 (30:22):
Tight, stay at home kind of guy, So you know.
Speaker 8 (30:28):
There's a lot of 'em.
Speaker 9 (30:30):
Well, I don't know a dozen, No, no, jeez, it's
nothing that won't.
Speaker 4 (30:37):
Be that hard.
Speaker 8 (30:38):
Yeah, we got that.
Speaker 2 (30:44):
I'm many in Washington. One relative.
Speaker 4 (30:48):
How about the least one in Washington at least one.
Speaker 3 (30:51):
Is there one that's not relative that we could look for.
Speaker 4 (30:53):
No, they're all relative, really.
Speaker 2 (30:57):
Relevant to I know you said there's one in one
relevant to stuff we may be talking about on the
future venue.
Speaker 4 (31:03):
Well, they're all relevant.
Speaker 7 (31:06):
That's what you have them for, right right, Yeah.
Speaker 15 (31:14):
I mean.
Speaker 4 (31:17):
Because a lot of the stuff.
Speaker 6 (31:18):
In him at the time that I burned him, you
know it's not mine.
Speaker 1 (31:21):
So notice how it's the FBI and not Keys who
insinuate that no means less than twelve. Here's the thing
about the Port Angelis Cash. We're fairly certain we know
(31:43):
where it is, and if we're correct, it's not far
from the Olympic Hot Springs. Two caches close to one another,
in an area where he likely killed multiple people, just
like Vermont, just like East Texas, and based on new information,
(32:05):
this may just be the case in Green River, Wyoming,
and in Riverside, California as well.
Speaker 16 (32:17):
I worked with Jolene and with the anchorage person who
was in charge of their evidence recovery team, and so
I would speak to Jolene and she would tell me
what was happening in interrogations and come out, and then
I would you know, put that to work on what
I was looking for. And so Jolene ran the team
(32:40):
in the instrogation room, I kind of ran the team
in at the lake. And also I then took a
different died team. I supervised a different different FBIDI team
ones from New York in a search in upstate New
York to find evidence in the Courier case. And so
it was a back and forth between Jolene bringing it,
(33:04):
stepping out of her interrogations and calling me, telling me
what he was saying about where you know, certain evidence
was supposed to be located, and then you know, us
going out and finding it. And I can tell you
that the information that he's provided as far as where
Samantha was and where mister or missus Curry's weapon was,
and then he deposited both in the water was unbelievably accurate.
(33:29):
It was right where he said we'd find it. He
had an incredible memory.
Speaker 1 (33:37):
Of all the cashes Keys had hidden across the country.
He gave the FBI Eagle River and Blake Falls Reservoir,
and there was nothing incriminating in either, nothing to connect
him to any crimes. The FBI didn't already know that
he committed. I'm sure this was not coincident. And while
(34:02):
Keys claimed at first that there were only five and
then later there were ten, based on his statements and
travel patterns, it seems that there were over the course
of his last fourteen years of life closer to nineteen
caches across thirteen different states Alaska, Washington, Oregon, California, Wyoming, Nevada, Texas, Indiana, Pennsylvania,
(34:29):
New York, Vermont, New Hampshire, and Maine. And next week
we'll get into every single one of them.
Speaker 2 (34:41):
How many guns would you say you've had over the
years plus would you go through several guns a year
in the last ten years?
Speaker 4 (34:48):
Ten years?
Speaker 3 (34:54):
I don't mean glens that are buried.
Speaker 2 (34:56):
I don't really consider mine.
Speaker 4 (35:00):
But I mean it depends on your definition.
Speaker 2 (35:03):
I know, if you take 'em, they're yours, but alright
they become yours.
Speaker 4 (35:10):
No, I mean it's.
Speaker 6 (35:17):
The guns that get buried right away, and that I
don't that I don't dig up or move around or whatever.
Those aren't you know, some of those aren't mine. That's
why they're buried.
Speaker 7 (35:33):
When you say the ones that are yours, where did
you usually get them from?
Speaker 5 (35:38):
I always got my guns from private party something else.
Speaker 4 (35:44):
Sometimes there would be I mean, you know how it's.
Speaker 5 (35:49):
Sometimes you take down license, driver's license information with somebody
you don't even know, and you know, and that's it.
Speaker 4 (35:57):
I never registered any of 'em any other.
Speaker 13 (36:01):
I'm guessing a lot of the people like got guns
from didn't have a registered in the form.
Speaker 4 (36:06):
And there's people who just swapped guns all the time,
especially up here. It's like a hobbyat or something.
Speaker 3 (36:17):
At least you getting those guns off the street.
Speaker 4 (36:20):
Right, It's kind of a lot of what I do
that could be considered public service.
Speaker 16 (36:24):
So do you, I mean, at some point in time
do you think that you would be terrible like giving
letting us know where these cases are?
Speaker 7 (36:33):
Would you remember where they are?
Speaker 17 (36:34):
Oh?
Speaker 18 (36:34):
Yeah, some of the stuff was gonna be relevant, right right, I'm.
Speaker 8 (37:00):
Just fell and ye shore if you need brnd this
star of the real mandre morn he appear, let me
(37:22):
see to the storm.
Speaker 15 (37:31):
At if your don't, you don't.
Speaker 8 (38:03):
Need them some children not telling.
Speaker 15 (38:25):
He medang still surreal to Lettings, how was your COMPLI.
Speaker 8 (38:45):
Your second side? I didn't want this hard to turn
the wrong from right? He let it change? Still sit
(39:08):
up to.
Speaker 15 (39:10):
Letting to.
Speaker 8 (39:15):
How was your COMPLI your second side. I didn't want this.
Hard to tell the wrong from right. If you're ever do,
(39:46):
if you're.
Speaker 15 (40:02):
You don't need, No, you don't need the.
Speaker 17 (40:09):
Some not chot kill it. No, I not killing, not killing.
(40:33):
Chock killing
Speaker 15 (41:21):
Became every
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