True Crime Conversations: Amanda Jacobson, Charlie Worroll, Josh Hallmark (Ad-free & Early)

For the month of December, True Crime creators are getting together for conversations about podcasting, true crime, and the nexus between the two. We’ll discuss creating our shows, behind-the-scenes moments, fears and hopes, the cases that have gripped us, and more.

In this conversation Amanda (Wine & Crime), Charlie (Crimelines), and Josh (True Crime Bullsh**) discuss: friendships in podcasting, war stories from the road, podcast advice, feeling misunderstood, weird purchases, pop culture, and more.

Enjoy this conversation and be sure to check out the rest:

• Jessie (Love Murder), Bob (Buried), Joshua (Somewhere in the Pines)
• Javier (Pretend), Kristen (Murder, She Told), Shaun (Sins & Survivors)
• Patrick (True Crime Obsessed), Josh (True Crime Bullsh**), Eric (True Consequences)
• Gillian (True Crime Obsessed), Alvin (Affirmative Murder), Lanie (True Crime Cases with Lanie)
• Robin (The Trail Went Cold), Nina (Already Gone), John (Sins & Survivors)
• Aaron (Generation Why), Lucy (Wine & Crime), Kristen (Murder, She Told)
• Amanda (Wine & Crime), Josh (True Crime Bullsh**), Andie (Love Murder), Charlie (Crimelines)

Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/true-crime-bullsh--3588169/support.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
All right, are we ready to do this?

Speaker 2 (00:02):
Yeah?

Speaker 1 (00:03):
Okay, uh, everybody, I am here. I realize whenever I
do cold opens, it's just like the energy of a
dying child, or like hi everyone.

Speaker 3 (00:15):
The energy of me calling nine one one from the toilet.

Speaker 1 (00:21):
Bring that energy, listless with nothing left to give. Hey, everybody, Barrel, Hey, everybody, Hey, everybody.
I'm Josh Almark and I'm here with Charlie Worrel from
Crime Lines and Amanda Jacobson from Wine and Crime.

Speaker 3 (00:43):
Hey 'all, hillo, what you did?

Speaker 1 (00:49):
It's almost as though we did this just two days ago.

Speaker 3 (00:52):
Oh my god. Wait hold.

Speaker 2 (00:55):
So good to see you guys again so soon.

Speaker 3 (00:58):
It's almost as though I was late for this call
because I had diarrhea just two days ago and then
again today. M hmm.

Speaker 1 (01:05):
And it's almost like we've had this entire conversation two
days ago because I pressed pause on recording while you
were having diarrhea and never pressed record again.

Speaker 3 (01:15):
It's my fault, apparently, and I will accept that. And
you know, I feel like this is divine, you know,
like the first the first episode that we fully recorded
is like the first pancake. You always throw out the
first pancake. Now, We're going to deliver the properly cooked,
the well bubbled, the fluffy, the happy pancake, the one

(01:38):
you would actually serve to your mother in law.

Speaker 2 (01:41):
So we're not gonna just complain the whole time.

Speaker 1 (01:43):
No, okay, well too early to say no promises. We
also went on some wild tangents in that last call.
So that first pancake, like we accidentally put lsd in.

Speaker 2 (01:57):
Yes, yes, those pomps brings some mushrooms were coming back.

Speaker 3 (02:02):
Bro the mushrooms that Josh claimed he didn't feel anything.
You told me that every five minutes for three hours
being carried.

Speaker 1 (02:12):
To bed, Jason said, while they were carrying me to bed,
just out of nowhere, a glass of red wine fell
on the ground and they were like, where, how where
did that come from?

Speaker 3 (02:21):
You don't know where you had it stashed. Also, Hannah
came to like snuggle with me on the couch that
you had left, and it was just soaked hot was
soaking what granted you had been in the hot tops, Yeah,
kissed everywhere, but it was really funny. She came to
like cuddle in with the blanket. Was like, God, damn it,

(02:42):
I'm just wet. Anyway, we get into some shit when
we are together, and we are virtually together, so yeah,
let's get into some shit.

Speaker 1 (02:52):
Well, thank god it's morning, and I will say I
don't book meetings before noon.

Speaker 3 (02:56):
So you know, so you've done this to us twice.

Speaker 1 (02:59):
Well you did it to me because you were the
ones who have like lives or something.

Speaker 2 (03:05):
Oh yeah, I have to pick up kids at school.
It's such an exciting life to us.

Speaker 3 (03:09):
I have done this call anytime today before.

Speaker 1 (03:16):
All right, Well, so we are getting together as part
of a independent ish true crime group of folks to
have conversations about true crime. You will be hearing from
people from already gone and the trail went cold, true
crime obsessed whine and crime. I'm a bunch of bue

(03:37):
crime bullshit generation.

Speaker 2 (03:38):
Why whoever emailed whoever Josh emailed it, and whoever emailed
you back?

Speaker 3 (03:46):
Josh I said this last time. I'll say it again.
You really do have a gift of connecting people. And
actually we were taking I think we talked about this
when we were together last time. Is like every time
I'm in a room where a bunch of pop podcasters
and we're trying to figure out how the fuck we
know each other. It always comes down to Josh like
a sleeper cell networker. It's fucking crazy. How do you

(04:12):
do that?

Speaker 1 (04:14):
I think it comes from being raised by neglectible parents,
where I just like, yeah, like you're in for community constantly.

Speaker 3 (04:24):
It's like it's like the mister Rogers find the helpers. Yeah,
Josh is always out there tried to find the.

Speaker 1 (04:31):
Helpers because your boy needs some help, your boy. I
think I have never said that loud.

Speaker 3 (04:38):
No, I don't think I've ever heard you say your boy.
No you ever feel like really important question. Who's the
oldest person on this call? Oh?

Speaker 1 (04:47):
Yeah, god, by like a year and a half.

Speaker 3 (04:49):
I think this is for once, Josh's room for once.

Speaker 1 (04:54):
No, usually Justin's the oldest.

Speaker 2 (04:56):
Justice Yeah, yeah, that's right, and if Aaron's there, Erin's
the oldest, but nobody ever complains about his age. He's
actually older than Justin.

Speaker 3 (05:05):
I'm sorry, you know what. Let me clearly err on.

Speaker 1 (05:07):
This because hold on, Erin is simultaneously sixty and five.

Speaker 3 (05:13):
Thank you, because Justin has been bitching about this, because
I love making fun of Justin for being an old grandpa.
It's so funny. If you see the font on his
fucking quote unquote smartphone. I don't know how smart that
phone is. It will break your heart.

Speaker 1 (05:26):
He's reading a sentence at a time, a word.

Speaker 2 (05:29):
You can read his phone from across the room.

Speaker 3 (05:32):
You literally can, and I have. And so he's always
cranky about well, Aaron's older than me. No, no, no.
Elderliness is a spiritual yeah exhibit.

Speaker 2 (05:45):
It's who you are as a person.

Speaker 3 (05:46):
It's not rooted in how many years you've been on
this rotating orb. If bodies the elder.

Speaker 1 (05:53):
In fairness to Justin, he's been worn down, not only
by time but by life.

Speaker 3 (05:58):
Oh, that man's trump.

Speaker 2 (06:01):
I always tell people that it's not it's not my
age that makes me old, it's my children.

Speaker 3 (06:06):
Yeah, that's fair.

Speaker 2 (06:07):
And I mean my oldest is twenty six. So I
have like a lot of years of being worn down.
Not quite the same way as Justin, though, Justine, I.

Speaker 1 (06:15):
Have the trauma. But I think I'm like very preserved
by all the line. Justin doesn't drink, and I think that, yes, Justin.

Speaker 3 (06:22):
Has indeed been pummeled by the universe. And I think,
I mean, that's not why I love him so much.
I do love people with trauma.

Speaker 1 (06:31):
Oh, I like trauma.

Speaker 3 (06:33):
Yeah, it's like, what's the point?

Speaker 2 (06:35):
So glad to be here, But there is.

Speaker 3 (06:37):
Something special about him that, like when you really get
to know him and peel back the layers of some
of that pummeling, the fact that he is as kind, generous, open,
like lovely, funny, pretty well fucking grounded a person as

(06:58):
he is considering everything that's been thrown at him throughout
his life is a fucking miracle And it's like pretty
spectacular to be in the presence of a miracle. And
just like that's the nicest thing I'm ever gonna say about.

Speaker 2 (07:09):
Justin I was gonna say, nobody report back that this
was said.

Speaker 1 (07:12):
I'm gonna edit this, edit all of it out, take
it out.

Speaker 3 (07:15):
I mean, you cut that, please.

Speaker 1 (07:17):
I think that's the thing about this community if you
scale out. Like I was thinking about this the other day,
like I don't like everybody, but I love most everyone.
And there's only like two or three people I've met
who I'm just like, yeah, no, I don't fuck with you, You're
not for me. Yeah, But I just like, overall, it's
a really good community. We've made so many like I

(07:38):
feel like I'm lifelong friends with ninety percent of the
podcasters i've.

Speaker 3 (07:41):
Met literally literally, Like Charlie, I know that you and
I do not know each other quite as well. I
want to cozy up because I know that you are
a badass and most of what I know about you
is frankly against my will through Josh, who can't fucking
stop talking about how much he loves you ever, Like
in rooms you are that's amazing, So please know that

(08:04):
you are so beloved when I say this, but like,
Josh is somebody who is like one of the first
people in podcasting that I met, and like I can
easily say that Josh is like one of my best friends.
So when I talked to very regularly, who is the
first person I want to text whenever I'm on the
housewife subreddit, which saying something. But like Josh and Alvin

(08:30):
from a Firmative Murder, it's like we met it, you know, virtually.
I only met Alvin in person for the first time
this past summer when he and Fran came through for
a Whining Crime tour and I was like, stay at
my house. I know you've never met me before, but
please stay at my house like a fucking creepy witch.
And it just it's kind of amazing. Like I remember

(08:51):
even meeting you for the first time, Charlie, which I
think was at Josh's fortieth m M in person, but
we had done stuff over you know, maybe or whatever.

Speaker 2 (08:59):
I think we've may have met at a crime con
before that, But that was like.

Speaker 1 (09:03):
Chaoshville, that never happened.

Speaker 3 (09:09):
Can we just happened?

Speaker 2 (09:10):
If I didn't, if I didn't have a picture of
us together wearing BoA's, I would not remember it happened.

Speaker 1 (09:16):
It was a lot like my editor memory cut that
we were driving in and as we were driving in
there was like a shooting at the mall and then
perfectly predicated the weekend.

Speaker 2 (09:27):
Bro.

Speaker 1 (09:28):
Yeah, but it's just everyone survived, by the way.

Speaker 2 (09:31):
Oh, yes, it was okay, guys, Josh did get lost
on the streets in Nashville, but I'm actually pretty sure
Amanda's the one who found him. Lucy, Okay, it was
a group effort.

Speaker 3 (09:43):
Yeah, there's a lot of coordinated texting.

Speaker 1 (09:44):
Yeah, and then I demanded the uber take us through
the McDonald's drive and then you.

Speaker 3 (09:50):
Were really mad the next day because of the surge.
Pricing never heard the end of it. But we truly
like we had never all of us never meet in
person for these years that we'll be talking and like
becoming close friends, and then we meet in person and
it doesn't feel like it's the first time. It feels
like weight fucking known each other forever, because in a

(10:11):
lot of ways we have Yeah.

Speaker 1 (10:14):
Well, I think we also have this shared, very unique
experience of doing what we do, yes, where I think
like no one else gets it in the way that
I mean, no one could right in its entirety, And
so I think, no matter what, like, even if you
can't find any common ground with another podcaster, like, we

(10:35):
have this shared experience, which which is so bizarre.

Speaker 3 (10:38):
This job is so fucking weird, you guys.

Speaker 2 (10:44):
Yeah, it brings these amazing opportunities and these very weird
interactions into our lives. And just the idea sometimes I
sit there and I think, tens of thousands of people
know who I am, and I have no idea who
they are, and that that, I mean, that will make
me spiral if I think about it too much. So
maybe we could just stop that conversation right now. But

(11:05):
it's just it's it's weird. It's weird.

Speaker 3 (11:09):
I think that's an important conversation though, And I know
we are about this before, but like it's something that
is very strange because podcasting, at least the way that
like we do it, and that most a lot of
podcasts do it, there are certainly podcasts that are just
the facts. There's no real like personal vulnerability or showing

(11:33):
of the self, which, like all these years into it,
I totally get that now why people would make that choice.
I personally am incapable of not inserting my own bullshit
into every space that I'm fucking in, which is something
I'm trying to unpack in therapy. But it does create

(11:53):
an interesting and sometimes odd we'd kind of like in
to missee power dynamic where when you walk into a
room that is, you know, say in circumstances where the
room is full of people that are there for your show,
they know things about you because they've been listening for

(12:15):
In my case, you know going on nine years that
a I'm sure I shared but have no memory because
I barely remember what I say fucking five seconds after
I say it, which is also a problem. But they
know all of these intimate things about you and you
don't know anything about them, and it's like how to

(12:36):
break that barrier? Of one sided parasocial into reciprocal, like
true connection is is a challenge, and I think it's
something that we navigate well. Like I have a we
have a lot of listeners who have become my actual friends. Yeah,

(12:58):
and that's really something very special and unique. And obviously
I don't have the capacity to like create personal intimate
connections with like you know, every single person who's ever
listened to Winding Crime, But when that does happen, it
feels really special because it kind of eliminates some of
that you know everything about me and I know nothing
about you, which like makes me feel uncomfortable. I don't

(13:21):
care what people know about me. It's like, I just
like the reciprocity of connection, and so I feel bad
when it's like, Okay, you've been You've essentially been there
for me through every major milestone of my adult life
because I've been fucking doing this for a while now
and I know nothing about you, So like, yeah, talk
about that. How does that feel? And how do you

(13:42):
break that barrier? Well?

Speaker 1 (13:45):
Then I think the flip side is like for a
show like Minor Charlie is where it's more, you know,
content driven than personality driven, and you have all these
people who think they know you, but they don't, right,
They've built a construct of you based on like really
reading between the lines on what you're saying, whether there's
substance there or not. And then you're like, I feel

(14:08):
so misunderstood and I want them to know me. Yeah,
but at the same time, like there's not a true
space for that, and that it's so exposed that it's
like vulnerable, like the way you put yourself out there.
Like I simultaneously want to be seen for who I
am because I don't think who I am shows up
in the show. But I also don't because it opens

(14:29):
you up to so much more critique and criticism and
hatred and whatever.

Speaker 2 (14:34):
Yeah, I had my sixth the baby, while podcasting, so
obviously I took some time off. Yes, and he is
the last, by the way, but yeah, six six kids
in eighteen years, great time. But I when I had him,
I thought, I'm not really putting a whole lot out
there about I'm just pregnant. I'm having a baby. I

(14:56):
had a giant.

Speaker 3 (14:57):
Baby, you know, vulnerable a time.

Speaker 2 (14:59):
Yeah, so I'm not putting out, you know, details of
what's going on. And then we get a review that
said that they think it's irresponsible for me to have
so many children, and I was like, my podcast isn't
even about that. Like my podcast we do not discuss
my pregnancy. I just happen to be pregnant and I'm
taking time off, so it is mentioned during the podcast

(15:21):
that was about it, and I realized, like, anything you
put out there is then subject to if you put
it out there publicly, it is subject to public feedback,
and that's just what it is. And that was probably
my first lesson in Okay, I just need to be
able to be like, Okay, put that out into the
world and I don't have to take back what is
coming at me.

Speaker 3 (15:42):
Okay. Now, do I agree with that sentiment as a
childless by choice person, absolutely, But I also know not
to a fucking say shit like that to a stranger
while they're pregnant. That's right. Two fucking bananas. Like the
audacity of some people who will come into the comment

(16:05):
section and say unhind shit like that. It's very much
a lesson in oh, this isn't even about me, Like
the right person that's about them is this has nothing
to do with me, and like you are an amazing
fucking mom, and anyone who's known you for more than
fucking ten seconds knows that. And like, I have no

(16:25):
question that I could not handle six kids. But if
I know anybody who could, like truly do that in
such a beautiful and like supportive and loving way, it's
definitely you I would take. I would give you my
child afflicted.

Speaker 2 (16:42):
I do think if I had six young children that
would absolutely be too much. I did not have six
young children. At four kids. We took a break. Believe
it or not. Everyone thinks it's a his Hers and
Hours family, especially with we have the redheads and then
we have the brunettes and the blondes. You know, people
think we have a his Hers and Hours family. Know
we have been making, as I say, poor choices together

(17:02):
our entire lives. We met my first We met like
six weeks into my first semester of college. We've been
together forever.

Speaker 1 (17:10):
And you also have Mormonism in your blood.

Speaker 2 (17:14):
We do have Mormonism. That was something else. I actually
have to say that My listeners actually have picked up
on in episodes where if I cover any episode that
has anything to do with Utah or Mormonism, I get
an email saying I have to ask are you are
u LDS, And I'm like, okay, well, I'm like it's

(17:38):
my answer is complicated, but yeah, it's just sur Yeah.
It's just interesting that sometimes even when we think we're
doing adjust the facts kind of presentation, something we say
is inner lingo or whatever that people pick up on,
which I think is it's kind of fun. It's it's
when they go the other direction and they misunderstand me
that iggle.

Speaker 3 (18:01):
You navigate or in some cases respond to being misunderstood,
because I've really had I have like the audihd urge
to overcommunicate and never explain myself because I also hate
being misunderstood. And I'm sure some of that comes from
childhood wounds. It always fucking does so, but I've really

(18:26):
had to learn, like we even have some kind of
rules because we have a social media manager where it's like, okay,
if X amount of people are flagging something, then we're
going we're gonna go deeper and we're gonna open up
the discussion and we're going to address it. If it's
like one or two comments about a throwaway thing that

(18:47):
you know, if it don't apply, let it fly kind
of mentality. That's a hard line to tow and you know,
not everybody agrees with my views on Taylor Swift, but
that has definitely opened up worms, not even knowing how
that fandom can be that I did not see coming,
and like it is funny because I really don't think
about Taylor Swift that often, but right now and she's

(19:07):
come up in our show. You know, I've been honest
about how I feel about her, and it was not
taken well. So like just curious, like when do you
try to explain yourself and when do you go you
know what, I'm gonna let that go.

Speaker 1 (19:23):
I had something that really changed the way I respond
to criticism recently, where some woman who I think had
like just started listening to the show email and it
was like, you have no right to say that you
have nightmares. You haven't been a victim of crime like me,
and you haven't experience what I've experienced, And like my
gut instinct was to respond with, like, well, actually, like

(19:45):
I was molested for years as a child, I was
raped as an adult. Yeah, you don't know fucking shit,
and you don't know what it's like to live in
a dark case for a decade. And then I thought
about something my therapist said to me once, which was like,
if your mom came and like apologiz for everything that happened,
what would you do? I die? Well, I was like, well,
I wouldn't believe it, And so I kind of applied

(20:08):
that here where it was like nothing I say is
going to change how you feel because ultimately it's not
about me, and it's just an exercise in like me
trying to prove myself to someone who doesn't really isn't
interested in like who I actually am. They're just projecting something.

Speaker 3 (20:26):
Are they interested in understanding you as a person? Or
are like you said, are they projecting something that's more
about you? And that could be really impossible to know
in a comment section when you write with somebody.

Speaker 1 (20:38):
And then like someone recently was like what does Josh
do for mmi W? And I got all like twisted
about it, and then I was like Kyle and Olaith,
what do you do for MMIW? So I'm trying to
just like not take it on anymore by realizing ultimately
very little of this is actually about us.

Speaker 2 (20:57):
Yeah, I mean, so one time I'm a friend of ours,
it was Nina instead from Already Gone Podcast Go listen
if you haven't. Nina's so sweet. Well, because she's so sweet.
There was a Reddit thread where people were being really
nice about me, and She's like, I think you should
go read it. Of course, by the time I see
her text, by the time I click on it, somebody's

(21:19):
come in and said, oh my god, like I used
to listen, but and they went on this whole thing
about I'm so smug. I've talked to you guys about
how I feel about being called smug people.

Speaker 1 (21:29):
Nina wanted you to see that I know Nina.

Speaker 3 (21:33):
And wanted to see someone you smug. I'll tell you
it's a trigger for Charlie because Charlie is not a
fucking smug person. By Andie, she's been road hard and
put away wet by six kids.

Speaker 1 (21:43):
You think this bitch is smug and.

Speaker 2 (21:47):
I've raised four teenagers. There's not a ton you can
do to hurt my feelings in that. But it's broken
in waste.

Speaker 1 (21:54):
We can get physically emotionally.

Speaker 2 (21:58):
Josh has met my daughter like she's a lot. You know,
I is absolutely terrifying, but no, she's she's great.

Speaker 1 (22:06):
Dan.

Speaker 2 (22:07):
If you're listening to this, which you aren't, because it
horrifies her that I have a podcast, but I like
my feelings generally aren't going to get hurt. But I
will get frustrated with the idea of being misunderstood, and
I'll want to explain myself and I do. If someone
emails me directly, they're much more likely to get a
response than if they leave a comment out in the internet.

(22:28):
I just move on from that. But if you email
me directly and it sounds like you're looking for a conversation,
a like, let's meet in the middle, let's can you
you know? This bothered me? Can you know? And I
feel like there's a conversation there, I will engage. But
if they're just coming at me, I just.

Speaker 3 (22:47):
Move on one hundred percent. I mean, our listeners know this.
We have a fake intern named Derek has his own
folder in our email where some things just get sent
to Derek. Yeah, because yeah, I mean it. It's it's
there's a lot of things that are important that we

(23:09):
do in the world that have to do with our
jobs as podcasters and have nothing to do with our
jobs as podcasters because we have big, full lives that
were you know, struggling every day to try to fucking
keep together outside of putting out that content, and you
really do sometimes have to decide, like this is not
where I am capable of putting my energy today.

Speaker 1 (23:32):
Yes, yeah, And.

Speaker 3 (23:33):
That's not an easy lesson to learn, especially if, like
you do, touch on something polarizing and a lot of
people come out of the woodwork to have their feelings
about it. And on one hand, I'm like, Okay, there's
a conversation happening and I don't need to be part
of it. Yes, you know, I said my piece. And

(23:53):
for the most part, like I live very authentically. I
I some of that by four because I don't really
think before I speak, So I move very much from
like where I'm rooted and how I feel in the moment,
and that can be a problem, and I think that
can also help kind of like preserve that authenticity that
I'm committed to committed to because I really don't know

(24:16):
how to live any other way. I'm atally ill person.
So it does get challenging when it's like this person
is upset about something I said or upset about something
I feel, and I move very much, like very deeply
rooted in my value system, and so they don't like

(24:37):
me and It's like that is something I had to
really let go of because A, I'm not put on
this planet to be liked, even though I'm a fucking
audihd Libra attention getter, like I love to be perceived.
I love to be the center of attention. I love
to bring people joy. I love to make people laugh.
It's like what I fucking live for. And so the
idea of not being liked used to be something that

(24:59):
would absolutely fucking destroy me. But there is kind of
a callous, a loving callous that has built up over
the years of like, not everybody has to like you,
and it's actually very much okay for us to not
agree on some things. And that's not me saying like
openly welcome your trumpy you know, husband or uncle or friend,

(25:24):
Like if we're completely misaligned in like our true values,
then no, I don't need you to like me, and
I don't want to fucking like you either. But there
are some things like that are small, that are smaller,
like the Taylor Swift of it all. I don't you
people can love Taylor Swift. I have no problem with that.
I don't. I don't turn her off the second she

(25:45):
comes on whatever music app I'm listening on, Like I
don't people can do what they want to do. When
it gets into the nitty gritty of like deeply offensive,
problematic shit, then it's it's a block. But I don't
really use that black button that much. I'm pretty open
to like hearing what people have to say. That's how
we fucking learn.

Speaker 1 (26:06):
I also like, I have never in my life been
compelled to like send Shonda Rhymes a crazy email being
like you killed GEORGI, O'Malley, you fucking selfish, because I'm
just kind of like, oh, George is dead, I'm gonna
move on with my life now, I've got ship to do.

Speaker 3 (26:25):
It was devastating, and Josh save it because we are
working on a project behind the scenes.

Speaker 1 (26:30):
We are working on a project one that for some reason,
I'm more passionate about that our Housewives project. I'm like, oh,
we can own this project.

Speaker 3 (26:39):
I know.

Speaker 1 (26:40):
But I also just think like that, Also, if someone's
reaching out to you about something like they didn't like
a choice you made, or like they felt like you
were whatever, like I get screamed at because episodes aren't
long enough. Where I get screamed at because they're too long,
or I get screamed at because there's too many ads,
or I get screamed at because I don't have better microphones,
and I'm like, well, they had to pay for the microphones, yes,

(27:03):
And I'm just like at the end of the day again,
like it's not about me, because when I leave this office, like,
I have a life. I have to live too, and
I can't just be like mired in what strangers have
to say to me, which is also unhinged because, like
I said, who's got the time to write Shonda Shonda
rhymes an email.

Speaker 2 (27:20):
It's funny though that we're talking about this because last
night I was working on research on a case and
I was using a dateline podcast They're Missing an America
podcast as a source, and they had a date completely wrong,
and I was like, I bet, I'm.

Speaker 3 (27:37):
Just kind of understandably peeved about that.

Speaker 2 (27:39):
I bet Josh Menkowitz got zero emails. But if I
made that same mistake and I am have such a
smaller platform, people will email me because they feel connected
to me in a different way than they do with
these corporate celebrity podcasts. And Josh Mankowitz, if you guys
have ever met him, is the nicest guy.

Speaker 1 (27:56):
Doo shots with him at Crime God.

Speaker 2 (28:00):
Like the nicest guy, very very friendly. But when you're
listening to dayline podcasts, you don't think, oh, I could
email this guy and he'll respond. He actually probably will,
especially if you tweet at him, he probably actually will respond.
But you know, I know that we build kind of
more of a relationship with our listeners, even though you
know Josh and I are more scripted, less personality driven,

(28:21):
but thinking about like putting your authentic self completely behind
that microphone and just projecting it out like Josh and
I are like that in person. If you come on
a turb a trip, if you come to meet up,
you're getting the full. You come to a live show,
Heaven help you, you're getting the full. You're getting the
full less plus a couple of gin and tonics that
we drink before.

Speaker 1 (28:43):
Unless I've been drinking, though, I will power down at
some point.

Speaker 2 (28:46):
Yeah, Josh will need to go and be alone for
a minute, but.

Speaker 3 (28:51):
He has been drinking.

Speaker 2 (28:52):
He'll put himself to bed adventurely, or he will have
some help putting himself to bed.

Speaker 3 (28:57):
But yeah, we.

Speaker 2 (28:59):
He'll get to That's what matters with.

Speaker 1 (29:01):
All my stuff. I always do. It's a miracle.

Speaker 3 (29:03):
It's a fucking miracle. Even when you leave shit like
an iPad at the air, you still get it back.

Speaker 1 (29:13):
In all fairness, the iPad case was white and the
comforter was white.

Speaker 2 (29:17):
But that's not your fault.

Speaker 3 (29:20):
That's on them.

Speaker 2 (29:22):
Yeah, so we but I mean I just feel like
we you know, you see our authentic selves in person,
but you don't necessarily get that, which is one of
the reasons I do like the meetups is we get
to kind of build these reciprocal relationships a little bit more.
And it not all podcast listeners want to know us more.
You know, they are happy to just listen and then

(29:43):
move on at the end of our episode. That do
not Yeah, we're on like two time speed. We fill
thirty minutes to seventeen hours of their day if you're
whine and crime.

Speaker 3 (29:55):
But oh my god, that shade is so legitimate. Like
episodes are so fucking long. We have so much content,
it's overwhelming.

Speaker 2 (30:05):
Yeah, and then they listen and they move on. But
for the ones who do want to meet us, do
you want to engage on social media and like actually
make a connection. I mean, I think all three of
us are almost always down for that.

Speaker 1 (30:17):
Oh yeah, one hundred.

Speaker 3 (30:18):
It's some of my favorite parts of the job. And
like I mean again, our situations are different in the
styles of our three shows, with you and Josh having
a much more similar, like very straight to the chase,
like much more serious tone show, which I think is
incredible and so valuable and creates this really special opportunity

(30:42):
at these meetups for people to kind of meet you
for real for the first time, and for me, which
is totally opposite my some of my favorite feedback is like, oh,
she's just like she is on the podcast, and it's like, yes,
this because and part of that part of that feedback
being so sad fying validating to me is because a

(31:02):
very public breakup that I had very much on the show,
uh that had merch before the breakup. It was kind
of a crazy time. Literally, like a local like magazine
reached out to me about it.

Speaker 1 (31:17):
Oh god, it was nuts.

Speaker 3 (31:20):
Yeah, And I'm like, so bottom of the barrel in
the world of quote unquote celebrity, Like it's this niche
pocket of people who know who the fuck I am. Anyway,
so I was like, why would anybody care about this?
But it was very devastating tire from that person that
I had become quote unquote my podcast personality, and I

(31:43):
was like, I don't know what that means.

Speaker 1 (31:47):
I can say without a hesitation, who you are on
the show is who you are out in the world.

Speaker 2 (31:53):
Go too.

Speaker 3 (31:54):
So it was very like it kind of and I
now I can look back on and be like, why
would you ever give that much power to a literal man?
Like what the fuck? But it did that moment in
my life kind of rocked me to be like, wait,
hold on, I'm someone who values living in their authenticity,
both on the mic and off. What does this mean

(32:17):
if this person who I've been with for all these years,
who I thought I was gonna marry, is telling me
that I'm not the same person that on a.

Speaker 1 (32:25):
Show threatened by your success.

Speaker 3 (32:29):
And that's not now with the twenty twenty hindsight, I
can see that. But it really is nice to connect
with people and have them like be affirmed in that Yeah, no,
I'm just an idiot on a microphone, and I'm an
idiot not on a microphone, Like I'm just I'm just
a dumb person on a rock that's literally hurtling through space.
Like what is even fucking holding us here, and don't

(32:51):
talk to me about gravity because it's just a theory.

Speaker 1 (32:54):
A few weeks ago, it makes sense. We were watching
TV and I was eating popcorn, and Andrew just started
laughing hysterically, and I was like, what's so funny? He
was like, I am sitting here watching you pick kernels
out of your teeth with your fingers, knowing that there
are thousands of people who think that you are this
like serious investigative journelist, but it's so true.

Speaker 2 (33:20):
But I whatever people are, like, I can just hear
in Josh's voice. He's just so empathetic. He seems like
the nicest guy. I'm like, empathetic, yes, very smathetic.

Speaker 1 (33:29):
To a fault. Nice no, not nice, evil, And like
I think I'm a nice person, but like.

Speaker 2 (33:36):
You're a kind person.

Speaker 3 (33:37):
You're not a nice person.

Speaker 1 (33:39):
A kind not nice And the threshold is very low
for the amount of bullshit I'm willing to take.

Speaker 3 (33:45):
Yeah, Josh has really become a great barometer for me personally,
for like who in the zeitgeist we're just like not
really fucking with right now? Yes, if Josh is fucking
with that person, it's like okay, Well, we can. We'll
give them, we'll give them grace. But if Josh is
not fucking with that person, then I know something happened

(34:08):
and it's done.

Speaker 1 (34:10):
I grew up in like such a deeply abusive household
that at this point in my life, I'm like, no,
I'm not taking that on.

Speaker 2 (34:18):
If Josh leaves a group chat, I know I should
probably go with him.

Speaker 3 (34:23):
What's the last group chat you left?

Speaker 1 (34:25):
You don't have to say it was crime con related.

Speaker 3 (34:30):
That makes sense, That makes sense. That's so funny. Okay,
I know that we have lots to talk about, but
I also pulled up some really fucking stupid icebreaker questions. Yes, okay,
but some of these are pretty great and I'm curious

(34:52):
about them. So I am going to augment this one
a little bit because it says fictional, but I want
to open it up to the four universe of possibilities.
I'm thinking especially Housewives. So if you could have any
fictional or not fictional character, character or real person as

(35:13):
your roommate, who would it be.

Speaker 2 (35:17):
I'm going through the Housewives and going no, no, no, yes,
that's my problem.

Speaker 1 (35:22):
Like my instinct was was Meredith Gray, But I feel
like that would get annoying very fast. Oh she needs she.

Speaker 3 (35:29):
Needs, yes, a lot. She'd be very helpful to someone
chronically ill like me. I would have to avert. I mean,
I'm so glad she's spending all this time and energy
on curing Alzheimer's. Yes, of course, valiant effort really important.

Speaker 1 (35:45):
Well, and there you get though. She's bicoastal, so she
won't be around a lot.

Speaker 3 (35:49):
Yes, but I'm gonna need her switch gears and get
on that diabetes train because I'm fucking over this.

Speaker 1 (35:54):
I think Bailey's Richard's working on diabetes. I think we're not.

Speaker 3 (35:58):
Doing shit, and you and I both fucking know it. Charlie.
Do you watch grays Anatomy?

Speaker 1 (36:05):
Uh?

Speaker 2 (36:05):
No?

Speaker 3 (36:06):
Okay, Well, Richard's been retiring for twenty five.

Speaker 1 (36:10):
Seasons like Elton John.

Speaker 3 (36:12):
That's he's share and Elton John combined in terms of
how hard he's been trying to retire, which is zero
zero effort.

Speaker 1 (36:21):
Amanda and I learned three weeks ago in Palm Springs
that we are two of the only people who still
Watchatomy right by.

Speaker 2 (36:30):
I have to admit I didn't know it was still
on like with new episodes, bab, but you're not just
watching reruns.

Speaker 1 (36:37):
It's both and.

Speaker 2 (36:40):
It's I actually had no idea it was still on.

Speaker 3 (36:43):
Ye. Yeah, and I will never not watch it to
the bitter end. If it lasts long. If I'm not
watching Grey's Anatomy, two things have happened. I have died
or it has finally ended. Those are the only ways.

Speaker 1 (37:00):
I'm doing a rewatch, because whenever I'm sad, I do
a rewatch and I have like seasonal depression.

Speaker 2 (37:05):
Right now, Yeah, exactly, it's your Dawson's Creek.

Speaker 3 (37:08):
Oh, I love Dawson's Creek.

Speaker 1 (37:11):
We'll get you and the Captain watching together. It's his
favorite show. He talks about it endlessly.

Speaker 3 (37:17):
Yeah that tracks. Yeah, evaluate yourself, captain.

Speaker 1 (37:20):
Anyway, I'm watching, and I realized, like I've known Meredith
Gray talk about Parasocial for twenty years, which is like
longer than I've known you guys.

Speaker 3 (37:32):
Yes, yes, I know everything about her I've seen at all.
I wouldn't choose her as my roommate, though. I think
I'd go fictional, and I think i'd go with some
sort of like wizard, because I feel like it would
make household chores much easier. So I would want like

(37:53):
a Gandalf somebody who's traveling a lot but always has
good weed, fun fireworks. But when he is home, I
can be like, Okay, here's the honey do list, and
he waves his staff or fucking whatever, and everything's clean,
everything's gooch. If I really have like a big problem,
I could be like, Gandy, you gotta get back home.

(38:15):
Shit's going to I'll pipe burst. The landlord is not
my call, and like he's gonna He's gonna come through
for you because he's the fucking he's Gandolf. I mean,
I would take the gray or the white. I don't
care which version of him I'm getting. I want you
shall not pass level roommate relationship. That's what I want.

(38:35):
He'd keep shitty men out, you know he I think
he would love my cats. I really think we'd have
a good time living with Gandalf.

Speaker 1 (38:45):
I need someone who like is an is like a
social introvert who can let me be alone for a while,
but who also like can drink about their feelings if
we have a bad day, So Andrew, Andrew doesn't drink,
Oh that's true.

Speaker 3 (39:02):
But he'll entertain your drinking and going off.

Speaker 1 (39:07):
That's you think that.

Speaker 3 (39:12):
Okay? Maybe, Oh my god.

Speaker 1 (39:19):
Yes I would. I would live with Babet.

Speaker 3 (39:27):
I would totally live with Babbet. And I like, I mean,
my husband is not a nosy person at all. I
honestly like one of the best. He will listen to
any of the ship that I need to spew. But
like if you if you want the tea, if you
want to like gossip, Bill's not it. And I actually
think that that's one of his better qualities is that
he's not He's not compelled to like talk shit about people.

(39:50):
He has to be pretty like something weird has to
have gone down for him to be like, I have
to tell you about this weird thing that happened, you know.
He's where as me, if somebody's like toenail fell off
at a function, I'd be like telling everyone I love
any little bit of tea. But it's something that I
actually really appreciate about him. And like you said, Josh,

(40:12):
we're on all the time, and like I'm very much
on ninety percent of the time. So in I think
very few people have like stayed in my house for
long periods of time and experienced how like we really
live at home and it is a very quiet life,
like I'm chilling, like barely, barely talking because all I

(40:34):
do for a fucking living is talk.

Speaker 1 (40:36):
Well, I'll say you spent there is something nice about
that you spent four days with me for my birthday
two years ago, and I would say you were one
of the more quieter people there.

Speaker 3 (40:46):
Which is like I think people do end up being
kind of surprised by that. You see it a little
on the Trova trips, I would say, And on those trips,
I'm very upfront with people that, like, I will be
down for all of the events. I'll be up at
the crack of dawn, like I'll be on the bus.
I'll be engaging all day. And then when y'all are
figuring out where you want to go to dinner, I'm

(41:07):
getting on door Dash in Ireland and getting in my
fucking bed because, like I have to, I'm disengaging. I
have to disengage, and it's not personal. It's personal to me.

Speaker 1 (41:22):
I right, I power through, I do everything, but then
when I get home, I like lock myself in my
room and play animal crossing for five days.

Speaker 2 (41:29):
Yeah, we had him when we were in Ashville. We
were in Josh's cabin talking and I can go all day,
all day, all night, We're chatting. Justin's in there, We're
and josh just looks. He goes, so I was thinking
a nap and then meet back at six for dinner.
And I look, I'm like, are you kicking me out?

(41:50):
And He's like, yes, very politely, I'm thinking a nap.
I'm thinking alone time.

Speaker 1 (41:55):
And then Grandpa Justin instead of leaving, just helped himself
to my dracuzzi.

Speaker 2 (42:00):
He spent a lot of time in her. I looked
over and I'm like, why is Justin and Joshua's hot
tub weekend? The whole weekend?

Speaker 3 (42:09):
But who would be your roommate, Charlie.

Speaker 2 (42:13):
It's actually funny when you were talking about Gandalf and
about like the things he could provide because mine mine
was Bronwyn Newport from Salt Lake City. Because I think
she needs me.

Speaker 3 (42:25):
Needs did cross my mind because I was like, she's
cool with the dog shit. She wouldn't care about my
cat's puking all over. Yeah, she wouldn't be like a
pain in the ass about it. Like her standards. I'm
kind of a slob.

Speaker 2 (42:40):
So like her standards can't be too high, you know what,
whens She it's not you know what, in any other franchise,
I'd agree, but like Mary Cosby exists this franchise.

Speaker 3 (42:55):
Love the chairs. I will not walk hear it. I
will not fucking hear it about. There will be no
Mary Cosby decorse slander in this house.

Speaker 2 (43:05):
You're like all the other Mary Cosby slanders.

Speaker 1 (43:07):
Five.

Speaker 3 (43:08):
There is plenty of Mary and Bronwyn an All Housewives
slander that is perfectly valid.

Speaker 1 (43:14):
Leave that.

Speaker 3 (43:15):
You can leave the chairs alone. They're incredible. Around that
tiny table, bron It's hilarious.

Speaker 2 (43:26):
Honestly, you know what, it's the tiny table that really
brings it.

Speaker 1 (43:29):
Together, which is inexplicably filled with like vintage candy machines,
like gumball machines.

Speaker 2 (43:36):
For absolutely no reason. But yeah, I think I think
Bronwyn needs to be remothered and and I remother a
lot of my friends.

Speaker 3 (43:46):
It's probably hard for you to watch the Bronwyn buzzy scenes.

Speaker 2 (43:49):
Oh gosh, I want bron Win to be your painful.

Speaker 3 (43:53):
Yeah that's rough, all.

Speaker 1 (43:55):
Right, Crack open another eyes breaker.

Speaker 3 (43:57):
Okay, I have another one. And I'm really excited for
Josh's answer to this. What is the most ridiculous thing
you've ever purchased either on it says online, but let's
say online or offline.

Speaker 1 (44:13):
Charlie, you go first. I'm gonna have to think about that.
We have so many like weird costume parties. I'm sure
it has something to do with that.

Speaker 2 (44:20):
Oh why would he? I can't even think of anything,
I mean, like other than like just dumb way elephant things,
but like some like a real thing. I don't know.
I mean, my husband and I did drink one night
and ordered all new like dining room furniture one night.
But that seems like normal for people to do you

(44:40):
drink and order furniture.

Speaker 1 (44:41):
Oh yeah. The one thing that stands out is actually
the one that got away. There's like this weird shop
across from where we usually do brunch on the weekends,
and it like has no business being in our town
because it's like dumb art that costs thousands of dollars.
And yeah, they had like a wood carved beaver for

(45:04):
three thousand dollars and it was life size, and I
like I walked to get it. No, I was like, bitch,
I was like I can't. I mean, I could not
justify spending that money. And I can justify spending money
on anything. I just I would walk past every Sunday
being like, I should get that beaver. I should get
that beaver. I should get that beaver. And then you
never did, no, and not because someone else did, but

(45:26):
because the shop went out of business.

Speaker 2 (45:29):
I will say, my adult kids this summer got on
a business was closing, and so they were doing online
auctions for all their shit, and it's all like random,
random stuff, and they bought like Neon signs that for
like just random stuff. But one of my kids, the
one that still freaking lives here, so it now lives
in my house, but a giant thing of bubble wrap,

(45:51):
but like the big bubble wrap, like a huge role
And I was like, is that even gonna fit in
your Kia? Like how are you getting that home? But yeah,
I don't think I bought any I'm pretty tightwad, Like
I don't buy a lot of stuff. Knows I'm cheapest, Yeah,
you're cheap anything, I'm so cheap.

Speaker 3 (46:06):
Well, it doesn't mean you have to have spent a
lot of money on it. I don't spend money bought
yourself like something dumb I bought.

Speaker 1 (46:14):
I bought you something dumb. Lucy and I were like
ten margaritas in two weeks ago and got you a cameo.

Speaker 3 (46:19):
We won't actually say who that was from, but they
did we we were. I was high as a motherfucker,
and these two were hammered. And it was twelve thirty
in the afternoon in Palm Springs and I we were
talking about our Christmas list, and I made the mistake

(46:42):
of joking about all I want for Christmas is a
cameo from will not be named.

Speaker 1 (46:49):
Someone who does not deserve the money we gave him.

Speaker 3 (46:51):
And twenty three minutes later I had a cameo in
my inbox from someone who will not be named, which
is now one of my most precious, priceless secret treasures.

Speaker 1 (47:03):
I watched that cameo at least one hundred times.

Speaker 2 (47:06):
Was it at least good? Because yes, I sent it
to you. I said that I showed that to Lars,
and before I showed it to him, I said, just
so you know, Josh ordered it. So a lot of
the comments are okay, like, yeah, oh, I did see
that limatic on so many levels, and it's so absurd

(47:28):
and hilarious.

Speaker 3 (47:32):
That I don't and like it doesn't cross it's not
problematic because it's like racist or zeno right, no, not
even or homophobic or like, it's not problematic in that way.
So before anybody's rumor will starts flying and no, I'm
never gonna tell.

Speaker 2 (47:47):
It's quite sex it's quite sex positive. Yes, this is
sex positive.

Speaker 3 (47:52):
This is something that will be saying in the vault
just for us, maybe on my death Bettle releases.

Speaker 1 (47:58):
When you die, it's gonna be your epitaph.

Speaker 3 (48:00):
We're gonna have it transcribed that my hologram. Yes, tombstone,
will will may be playing it on repeat when I
die because people can piss on my grave. I don't care.
Do whatever you want.

Speaker 2 (48:11):
See, I had someone buy me a Joe cameo and
the guy did not deliver at all, Like it was
so boring and terrible, and I'll actually name him, I'll
name mine. It was for Mike Boudet from Sword and Scale.

Speaker 1 (48:24):
Ooh, that's almost as problematic as.

Speaker 3 (48:29):
It's up there.

Speaker 2 (48:29):
It's up there. But he did not deliver. I mean
he like did literally the bear minimum.

Speaker 1 (48:38):
At least ours was a charming sociopath.

Speaker 2 (48:41):
Yes, this one is like it's so it was like
we couldn't even like we thought it would be the
person who bought it for me. Thought it would be funny,
and then it was like such a letdown because it
wasn't like we bought Josha Sonya Morgan one and it
was just like she was like drunk at the pool
doing it was which is livered?

Speaker 3 (49:00):
Wh's just how we did our Spotify wrapped video. Fifteen
minutes after that Spotify rap video was recorded in the
pool at Palm Springs. I had to get out of
the pool and put myself in a time out in
the corner because I was so high that all I
could do was pressed gently on my face while Hannah
across the pool kept like mouthing to me, are you okay?

(49:22):
That trip was nuts? It was so funny too, because
I got home and I was like, I think I
had four drinks in four days, but I have like
not been that fucked up in a long time because
I was just smoking weed from like basically the second
we woke up until we went to bed.

Speaker 1 (49:37):
Well it was supposed to, we were supposed to go
to like reset and relax. Lucy and I were drunk
the whole weekend. You were high the whole weekend.

Speaker 2 (49:44):
Oh we checked out now So Josh was planning a
podcaster thing in the spring, and we were gonna go
to one place and after that Palm Spring Strip. He goes,
you know where we should go? We should go to
Palm Springs instead.

Speaker 3 (49:58):
So now I'm getting an.

Speaker 2 (49:59):
Idea what we're what we're looking for.

Speaker 3 (50:01):
It genuinely was such a beautiful retreat. It was so
nice to just like be surrounded by a everybody who
completely gets it. So if you have like anything that
you needed to just on burden yourself with, just being
surrounded by people who truly have stood in exactly your
shoes and to like lean into connecting with each other

(50:25):
and learning from each other and just enjoying life with
each other was so special.

Speaker 1 (50:30):
And it was so like work, not work forward, but
like a lot of good work happened there, Like we
came up with our new show. You got Tawny on
your show, Like, well, it was really fruitful.

Speaker 2 (50:41):
It was amazing what I loved about the guest list,
which I didn't go for scheduling and other reasons. But
we miss you though, I'm sure you did, really did
you now?

Speaker 1 (50:52):
The room you would have been in was tough.

Speaker 3 (50:57):
You know, I will that Jason left and checked to
do a hotel. Oh okay, well that was motivated by
all their needs.

Speaker 2 (51:04):
Yes, well, I think that like one of the things
that I liked about the guest list for that was
it was it's the people who've been in the industry
for a while.

Speaker 1 (51:17):
Yeah, that we all started in like fifteen or sixty.

Speaker 2 (51:20):
Right, everyone started around the same time. People have gone
in different directions. Some people are not even podcasting anymore.
Some people like Tawny have blown up like on social
media and other ways, and it was just yes, it's
just like such that like getting everyone together and seeing
the evolution from where everybody started. I mean, that would
have been incredible. But then also it wasn't all true

(51:41):
crime people. And I think that's something that we're kind
of where we silo so much these days that we're
not connecting with other podcasters as much and so and
I know Josh has tried to bridge that. He was
really active with the Berkshire Podcast Festival trying to get
non true crime podcasters to come and not one one

(52:01):
got one and she was terrific, loved her. But it's
like wanting to kind of, you know, we just got
I think honestly it's the way the festivals have been.
It's the Crime Con, the True Crime Podcast Festival. They've
kind of been putting us in boxes a little bit.

Speaker 1 (52:16):
And I think it would be nice. The industry is
so commercialized now. It's like I'm not reaching out to
like Charlie Whirl from Kansas City, I'm reaching out to
someone's publicist in La.

Speaker 2 (52:26):
Right. Yeah, so it's but so getting together with the
independent podcasters who've gone in all these different directions, which
really sounds like an incredible weekend, even if you don't
remember all of it, I'm sure was incredible.

Speaker 1 (52:39):
I strangely remember most of it.

Speaker 3 (52:40):
Yeah, me too, burned into my memory. Okay, the dumbest,
the craziest or silliest thing.

Speaker 1 (52:45):
Yeah, yes, I.

Speaker 3 (52:47):
Didn't buy it online. We did the Just for Last
Podcast Festival in Vancouver several many years ago. Now like
that was like not long after COVID, so at least
like five or six years ago, and in Vancouver in Canada,
mushrooms are very much legal, and they had like an

(53:10):
an artist suite at the hotel that was like just snacks, movies,
merch like freebies, grab bags, and just like a chill
place that you could hang between seeing other people's shows
and doing your own shows, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.
But it had a mushroom bar wow, and it was incredible.

(53:32):
They were in capsules and each one was labeled for like,
if you want this experience, take this and take this
many like it was so nice and so curious, curated.
It was very much like a dispensary experience, and it
was free. So I basically just took handfuls of pill
packets for each bucket.

Speaker 2 (53:53):
Your pockets are bulging, bulging.

Speaker 3 (53:56):
And then Lucy and I had a beautiful afternoon where
I took much more than she did, and we wandered
around Vancouver. We had a beautiful lunch, We went on
a little like boat taxi ride, and then on our
way back, when I was like really feeling it, there
was a protostaur right around the corner of in our

(54:16):
hotel and I saw those fucking well the Bogonia pink
prodajellies in the window, and Lucy said, yeah, well, we'll
get to it. She said you cannot buy those, and
I said the fuck I can't. And I went inside
and I got out my Capital one, which which card
was it. This doesn't matter. Venture card got the miles

(54:39):
and I bought and I loved them so much. I
brought them home. I wore them all the time, and
wearing them in the video of Bill proposing to me.
And he hated those shoes. Hated them. He thought they
were so obnoxious. And he texted me one day while
I was at work and it's like, I have something
to tell you, and I was like what, and he

(55:01):
had it was an accident. I did suspect sabotage in
the beginning, but I really did once he gave me
his full story, I did believe it. He's not a liar.
And he broke them. He accidentally stepped on them when
he was trying to get inside the door. I probably
put them way too close to the front door and
they snapped at like where the rubber met the buckle.
And they were within the one year warranty. So I

(55:24):
contacted the company and I said, I don't know how
this happened. This snapped off. I haven't even been wearing
them that much. And they said that they could replace them,
but I couldn't get them in the in the United States.
In Bogonia, pink, so I had to get a different color,
but they're fine. I have the periwinkle once now. But yeah,
they very much become like a part of my personality.

(55:45):
They're like the only designer shoe that I own, and
I'm obsessed with them, and to the point where like
they're a sandal. They're a rubber sandal, but like I
will put on a sock and cram them on my
foot in the dead of winter and I don't regret
it and I never will. So anyway that happened, Well,
there we go. Do we want another one?

Speaker 1 (56:07):
Let's do one. Let's do one more and then we
can like slowly trail out of this.

Speaker 3 (56:12):
Yeah, I love it. Oh, okay, okay, if you could
instantly become an expert at something, what would it be?

Speaker 1 (56:20):
This is so nerdy, Okay, I love it. I grew
up playing SimCity and like I only play the sims
and animal crossing to like develop a community, so like
city planning.

Speaker 3 (56:34):
Oh not at all where I thought you were going
to take that. That's amazing.

Speaker 1 (56:40):
Yeah, I think it's so good at that.

Speaker 3 (56:42):
You're a great connector.

Speaker 1 (56:43):
I think so too.

Speaker 3 (56:44):
You're a good community builder. Period.

Speaker 2 (56:46):
Mine's so dumb and it's only because I can't become
an expert in it, no matter how hard I have tried.
I would really like to be able to make my
macrons without them cracking or having sad feet or any
of the seventy five other things that go wrong with that.
And I don't know how all these home bakers, like
my crowns, they bake up and they have feet on them.
They're aesthetic. They don't really have to do with the

(57:07):
texture or anything, but they it's how they bake. It's
just it's a thing. I would I'd become an expert baker,
that is what.

Speaker 3 (57:14):
I would do.

Speaker 1 (57:15):
Chef would be good because I love cooking and I
think I'm good at it until I watched Top Chef
and I'm like, I don't even know what they're saying
right now.

Speaker 2 (57:22):
Well sometimes slurs and I go to a restaurant and
he's like, can you tell me what these foods that
are listed under the dish are? And so I'm like, oh, well,
that's a cheese, and that's this and that. But then
I watch there were so many times I'm like, actually,
I got to look that up. I've never heard of
that food before or whatever. So yeah, I mean just
anything chef baking related.

Speaker 1 (57:43):
That's good.

Speaker 3 (57:43):
What about you, man, I would choose piano.

Speaker 1 (57:49):
Oh.

Speaker 3 (57:51):
I really love music. I love to sing, and I've
like always wanted to be able to play an instrument,
and I feel like a piano is a good fit
for like the kind of music that I like to sing.
But me, piano is such like a beautiful and complex
instrument that I feel like is a gateway into a
lot of other instruments. Like a lot of people who

(58:13):
can play piano can kind of find their way around
other like string instruments. Yeah, and I just I would
if I could wake up tomorrow and be an expert
at something, it would always one percent be that.

Speaker 1 (58:26):
And it's easier for you to learn other languages too,
Like I've.

Speaker 3 (58:29):
Heard when you when you're a piano person.

Speaker 1 (58:31):
Yeah, yeah, or just any type of instruments and language.
It's kind of you're using the same muscles.

Speaker 3 (58:37):
Wow.

Speaker 2 (58:37):
Yeah, we started our kids and piano, and they've kind
of gone different directions with music and without, but yeah,
I mean we started them in piano for that same thing.
It's just so foundational.

Speaker 3 (58:47):
What was your like childhood? I was in band or orchestra.
You were forced to play an instrument. Instrument, I you
have that.

Speaker 1 (58:56):
I took a year of piano and quit because I
expected I was going to be like.

Speaker 2 (58:59):
A girl, But actually so tracks with your personality.

Speaker 3 (59:05):
The way if I try something new and I'm not
immediately good at it, I never want to fucking do
it again. And meanwhile, I have a husband who's like
self taught in all of like the major areas of
his life, including music. He's a very fucking talented musician.
But he's also like a videographer who taught himself how
to use all of this equipment and all of this

(59:28):
other amazing shit, and he can like go down the
rabbit hole of being taught on like YouTube or just
watching other things, and then he's so fucking good at it,
and I'm like, how do you do that? I want
to know do that?

Speaker 2 (59:44):
My my oldest kid, he was one where everything comes
easy and then once it gets Hardy's out so like
he did piano until he moved to the next level
book and then he's like, oh, I actually have to
practice to get this. I think I'm done. But then
my third side, he's he's self taught. He's taught himself
all sorts of things. I don't even know how he

(01:00:05):
learns anything, because I'm like, how do you know that?
He's like I looked it up. I'm like, well, okay,
I like you looked up how to play instruments and
you retained it and then you moved on to the
next level. Yeah, he's he's very much self tap.

Speaker 3 (01:00:21):
We're a walking fucking miracle, Okay. Cool. I played cello
for years and my mom like wouldn't, couldn't, wouldn't or
couldn't always drive me to school on cello days, so
I would have to lug that fucking thing on and
off the school bus. And then choir auditions opened in
middle school. Like I I did well know i'd acquire

(01:00:43):
choir auditions open in fifth grade for the middle school
choir so you can see if you could skip the
entry level choir and get into the varsity choir. And
so fifth grade I auditioned for varsity choir for my
sixth grade year, and I got in. And then I
was like, fuck this cello because I this voice with
no effort. I only really ever learned how to play

(01:01:04):
ode to Joy and then.

Speaker 1 (01:01:05):
That was it. Yeah, my favorite storyline on Southern Charm
right now, which is a show about like micro racist
getting drunk in Charleston. Is this girl, gorgeous, gorgeous girl
who was on America's Next Top Model is now on
and she plays the tuba, and so while everyone's getting hammered,
she's always like, oh, I really I'm missing tuba practice.

(01:01:27):
And then she'll like start crying. It's incredible.

Speaker 3 (01:01:30):
She's like that dedicated to tuba.

Speaker 2 (01:01:31):
Yes, that's hilarious.

Speaker 3 (01:01:35):
So you didn't have like required music stuff at your school,
Charlie growing up or more? Did you? You didn't? So
did you not take any music? I didn't have required
music credits.

Speaker 2 (01:01:46):
I mean we we had to do music, like in
middle school you were in a music class that everybody
had to take, but we didn't have to do choir band.
And then in high school we had a quote unquote
fighting art credit, but like a lot of things qualified
for that. So I don't even remember what I took.
But I didn't take band or a choired I.

Speaker 3 (01:02:05):
Was pretty lucky because well, I mean very lucky for
a million reasons. Privileged, privileged, privilege. But uh, the schools
that I was in in Minnesota growing up were very
music and performing arts. Yeah, focused schools. They also had
like pretty intense sports, but like our football team wasn't
very good. I think it's decent now, but it's like

(01:02:26):
it was. You were kind of like there were jocks
and then there were like theater people mm hmm, and
I was very much a theater person and a choir person,
and it was really cool. I mean, we got to
travel all over the place. We had our own fucking
resident composer that's awesome, who wrote music for our concert

(01:02:47):
choir and our concert orchestra, and then we toured around
Norway with our orchestra doing these like massive original pieces
in like churches and share all over Norway.

Speaker 1 (01:03:01):
It was fat awesome.

Speaker 2 (01:03:02):
That's crazy. My kids go to such a small school district.
It's Title one. It's in the city, and so they
have a lot of opportunities, but they don't have opportunities
like that, And you know, that's like one of the
like the only things where I'm like maybe we should
live in the suburbs is that those schools tend to
have more of those. I think what my kids get
at their school is worth what we're doing there. But yeah,

(01:03:23):
it's having opportunities like that that's amazing.

Speaker 1 (01:03:27):
Wait, Amanda, why the cello?

Speaker 3 (01:03:30):
I know exactly why, actually, because I wanted to play
the double bass so bad, the stand up bass. It
was like that was my fucking dream. I wanted to
be my goal. I grew up very much in a
jazz house. My dad was a huge like jazz and
motown guy. So and the way that like my vocal

(01:03:51):
style was developing as a kid, singing music that was
basically like Nina Simone and El Fitzgerald, these like really
talented altos. Elephantz. Jerald obviously has massive range that I
could never fucking possibly achieve. But I grew up like
my dad would like play me videos of like these
live sessions with these like he had all the ken

(01:04:12):
Burns jazz documentaries. I was like, I ate slept and
breathed all this shit. And the double bass always fascinated
me for two reasons. One it was huge and the
center of attention, and it didn't look that hard to play.
It was worse strings you're and little did I know
my husband's a bass player. It's like you are the
fucking foundation and if you're fucking up, like everybody screwed.

(01:04:32):
So I don't know what I was thinking then when
I got to the like level to where you're picking
an instrument in elementary school, I was dead set on
double bass and they were like, you're too short, you
can't play that. So I was like, fine, I'll play
the cello because it's the same shape and it's small. Bro,
you dump bitch. No, that shit is so fucking hard.

Speaker 2 (01:04:55):
My daughter played the cello when she was little, and
we had like the little quarter size one. It was
so cl you. But I mean those were private lessons
because our school district, again it's small. They don't even
do instruments until middle school, and they don't do stringed
instruments at all. It's pretty much just like marching band
type stuff. They do HBCU style, which is very fun,

(01:05:17):
very fun to watch. But my daughter went into percussion
in band in high school because she was an Irish dancer,
so keeping time with something she knew and she's like, well,
that'll be easy enough. But they put her on this
giant bass drum which is as big as she is,
and then they do HBCU style, so there's a lot
of bouncing around getting down on you. She had like
these bruises across her legs from the from the drum

(01:05:40):
hitting it and I was like, okay, you need a
less of a contact sport than banned.

Speaker 1 (01:05:47):
Well, we have been here for two and a half hours.
Now I understand why Wine and Crime episodes are eight
hours long.

Speaker 3 (01:05:53):
Yeah, because we chat. It's so fun to chat.

Speaker 1 (01:05:57):
No, well, especially with some of my favorite people.

Speaker 3 (01:06:00):
Yes, off, nobody's burning questions.

Speaker 2 (01:06:05):
Yeah, if anyone has any questions about podcasting, we didn't
answer them. Maybe someone else in the collaborations did.

Speaker 1 (01:06:13):
I'm sure let's end on that.

Speaker 3 (01:06:15):
Actually, what is what is your one piece of advice
for somebody who wants to get into podcasting, because that's
the question that we always get as podcasters. And I'm
not saying we tell them how do you start a podcast?
I'm saying, right, yeah, what do you typically say? And
I know what I typically say?

Speaker 1 (01:06:32):
Well, I say don't but like, yeah, the better advice
would be you have to be disciplined, have patients, practice
self care if it's true crime, and engage with the
community authentically. We see a lot of people who like
engage for the sake of like networking, and like people

(01:06:55):
see through that shit. You have to be authentic.

Speaker 2 (01:06:57):
Yeah, well, I'll say going along with the lines of
me being frugal and cheap. The thing I always tell
people is do not invest in expensive stuff until you
know this is what you want to do, Because like
any hobby, like you can have a knitting needles and
yarn in the back of your closet that cost you
ten dollars. But if you're gonna go spend three hundred
dollars on a mic, you're gonna spend however much on

(01:07:20):
editing software. There's free stuff to use. Do everything as
cheaply as possible till you figure out if you even
want to do this, because it's a lot more work
than you think, even sitting down and talking. At the
end of this, Josh is going to go and spend
a couple hours editing it.

Speaker 1 (01:07:33):
Oh that's cute that you think that I'm the laziest
editor in the world.

Speaker 2 (01:07:36):
I love that.

Speaker 3 (01:07:37):
I love that for you.

Speaker 2 (01:07:39):
So all our mouth noises will still be in there.
But you know, a.

Speaker 3 (01:07:41):
Weekultiple times, every sip of coffee, everyone gets to hear it.

Speaker 2 (01:07:47):
But it's just it's more work than you think it is.
So don't invest too much money into it until you
know it's what you want to keep doing.

Speaker 1 (01:07:54):
And with that said, I was at like twenty five
million downloads and still using a seventy five dollars mic.
I don't two years.

Speaker 3 (01:08:01):
Ago we now have the official microphones of Doctor Fraser Crane.
It was years before we opted years. I agree with
everything that you said. I would just add that don't
go into podcasting because you want it to be a

(01:08:24):
job that generates revenue for you.

Speaker 1 (01:08:26):
Those days are days are over.

Speaker 3 (01:08:28):
They've been over for a long time. We're all pinching
every fucking penny just to keep moving. Yeah, which you know,
I know, I say this all the time, but like really,
if you don't want to hear ads, then subscribe to
people's you know, m paywalled content, Get on the Patreon,
get on the Supercast, get on the uncorked whatever, because

(01:08:48):
you know it's it's five dollars a month for you
to get your typically, to get things ad free. That's
what a lot of creators offer that. I know we
offer that plus additional bonus content, but it's such as
all investment for you. But when enough people do it
on our end, it literally is the only way that
we can keep making content at all. Because the ad
space has changed so much.

Speaker 2 (01:09:09):
Yeah, and we even got started in the heyday where
ads were really becoming a thing, and it still took
a little while to start actually making money. Then we
made money for a little bit, and now here we are.

Speaker 1 (01:09:20):
I think there's a misconception, like without the paywall, we
make about half a cent per download, So when you
see someone has like one hundred thousand downloads, that's like
five thousand dollars.

Speaker 3 (01:09:36):
Yeah, And there was a time when on a popular show,
a mideral, a one minute mideral ad spot could cost
anywhere between three to six thousand dollars for one spot.

Speaker 1 (01:09:48):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:09:48):
Now, if you're making five hundred to one thousand for one.

Speaker 1 (01:09:52):
Ad, you're lucky.

Speaker 3 (01:09:53):
You're really lucky. You're really lucky. And I know that
sounds like a lot of money. But a lot of
these shows we've been around for a long time. We
have staff, we have health insurance, we have like it's running.
It's a small business with a weird smattering of revenue
streams that requires constant maintenance interaction. If you're going into

(01:10:14):
podcasting because you are unsatisfied with your professional life and
you want to create a professional path for yourself, there
was a time when that was really feasible, and I
agree that that was around the time when all of
us started, and that is just not really the case anymore.
So if you're going to start a podcast, make sure

(01:10:35):
it's something you are passionate about and that it's something
you're passionate about lending your voice to, because people can
also tell when your listeners will not connect if you
are not bringing it authentic passion to the subject matter,
and whether that's true crime or What Housewives or Gray's
Anatomy or whatever, if you're not connecting with whoever is,

(01:10:57):
you know, if you have co hosts, whoever's on your show,
and then creating that point of connection with your listeners,
Like people don't listen to whining crime for the crime,
but we know this. I mean that doesn't mean that
we could switch genres in a heartbeat and keep all
of our listeners. I don't think we could do that.
The crime is a very compelling, you know, element of

(01:11:20):
the show, but it's like the way that Lucy and
I interact with each other, the friendship that we have,
that's that point of connection, that's that point of passion,
and then the opening up of hard conversations that we
can have around real things that are happening in the
world or have happened in the world. Is is that
that's something that people can connect to. So if you're
not bringing a genuine authenticity and passion to what you're

(01:11:43):
putting out into the world, I don't know what to
tell you. It's probably not the right space for you.
So a lot of men will approach women podcasters and
be like, well, if you can do it, it's like, okay, bitch,
go for it.

Speaker 1 (01:11:58):
Have you heard of done it?

Speaker 3 (01:12:01):
Well, so, yeah, don't do it, y'all.

Speaker 2 (01:12:06):
Yeah, that's ours.

Speaker 1 (01:12:08):
It's a great way to make community and spend time
with something you're interested in. But unless you're already a
known entity, there's just yeah, it's yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:12:19):
It's hard to get started. Yeah, when people want to
know how do I get started and get monetized and
all of that, I'm like, well, it helps if you
started eight years ago, right, get a time A time
machine would be really helpful. I mean, the industry has changed.
We're having trouble keeping up with it sometimes. It's just
it's changed a lot. So we really do appreciate the

(01:12:39):
people who give independent podcasts a chance and don't just
go to the latest big name network celebrity or the podcast.

Speaker 3 (01:12:48):
And there's nothing like every celebrity has a podcast now.
And yes, I'm also listening to Good Hang with Amy Poehler.

Speaker 2 (01:12:54):
Yes it's she is a very good podcaster. I will say.
I listened to her, so I was like, Okay, some
celebrity podcasts are not that great. Hers is incredible. She's
very good at what she's doing. But yeah, that's we're
competing for people who have marketing dollars and we're competing
in that same space. And so one thing that helps

(01:13:15):
with listeners is when they they're in a podcast group
and someone asks for a recommendation, just type our name,
just take your favorite podcast, just recommend it to people.
That helps.

Speaker 3 (01:13:26):
If you're listening, you are not, please come on the show.
I'm obsessed with you. I listened to So True every week.
I fucking love what you're doing in the space.

Speaker 1 (01:13:37):
Well on that, Happy holidays everyone, We did it again again.

Speaker 3 (01:13:42):
What do you mean this is the first time we
ever recorded this.

Speaker 2 (01:13:46):
When an organic cover. It's actually funny. We had a
very organic cover, so not at all what we talked
about last time.

Speaker 3 (01:13:55):
But that does remind me of a time when I
was the one who fucked up and didn't cord something
and so and I had the other recordings. So I
actually sat down and painstakingly, oh god, layered their audio, yes,
and just faked the realcity the things that they said,
do my case again, because we could not get a

(01:14:16):
new recording time and that was hell I've.

Speaker 2 (01:14:18):
Done Oh my god, No, I did that one time
and it was the most painful recording, Like it took hours.

Speaker 1 (01:14:26):
Yeah, that's the other thing for listeners. You hear five
minutes and that on our end is two to five hours.

Speaker 3 (01:14:33):
It can be. Make sure shit can be girl before
you dive into podcasts. Yeah, yeah, here are prayer.

Speaker 1 (01:14:42):
It's more work than you think it is.

Speaker 3 (01:14:43):
It is, yes, but we love each and every one
of you and do hope that you have an amazing
holiday season and that wherever you're whoever's feed you're listening
to this on. If you haven't come and check out
checked out these other shows, please do. Yeah, I'm all
of that information will be in the show notes.

Speaker 1 (01:14:59):
I'm Josh Mark with true crime bullshit, serialized investigation into
Israel Keys, I'm.

Speaker 3 (01:15:05):
You're next, Charlie.

Speaker 2 (01:15:07):
Charlie with crime lines, different case every week, get deep
dive into the background. I go into the newspaper archives
and pull out the reporting from the time it happened,
and we it's a very comprehensive look. But it's a
different case every week.

Speaker 3 (01:15:23):
And similarly to that, I'm Amanda fifty percent of Wine
and Crime. My co host Lucy is on another one
of these true crime conversations, and we are true crime
in comedy. We do a different We do different cases
every week under a general theme. So if you're ever
curious about feral hogs or cruise ship disappearances for South

(01:15:43):
Dakota or South.

Speaker 1 (01:15:44):
Dakota or North Dakota.

Speaker 3 (01:15:46):
We were supposed to do North Dakota, but we accidentally
did South Dakota. We're human now that fan picker is
getting a double So yeah, you really don't have to
dive in. You can. You could scroll through any of
our hundreds of episodes and go, oh, that topic looks
interesting and just check it out.

Speaker 1 (01:16:03):
Yeah, and you can't see this at home. But I'm
wiggling because I'm about to wet my pants, so I'm
even say goodbye bye everyone,