The Ten-Spot Murder Plot

The Fall from Grace and Tragic Murder of the Rev. Gaylord V. Saunders

Jump to the AD-FREE Safe House Edition

Episode 38 tells the sordid tale of a Methodist minister suffering from a midlife crisis and in losing his faith falls into the path of sin and degradation. It gets so bad, that his beleaguered wife offers a young man a $10 bill to find someone to kill her husband before he kills her. This was in 1934, so adujsted for inflation, that comes to $177.71 in 2016 dollars.

Hear more stories about FALLS FROM GRACE

Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/true-crime-historian--2909311/support.

You can pay more if you want to, but rent at the Safe House is still just a buck a week, and you can get access to over 400 ad-free episodes from the dusty vault, Safe House Exclusives, direct access to the Boss, and whatever personal services you require.

We invite you to our other PULPULAR MEDIA podcasts:

If disaster is more your jam, check out CATASTROPHIC CALAMITIES, telling the stories of famous and forgotten tragedies of the 19th and 20th centuries. What could go wrong? Everything!

For brand-new tales in the old clothes from the golden era of popular literature, give your ears a treat with PULP MAGAZINES with two new stories every week.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:17):
Wabash, Indiana, February two, nineteen thirty four. The Reverend Gaylord V. Saunders,
for five years had been the pastor of the Wabash
Street me E Church here and one of the best
like ministers in the city. About six weeks ago, following
a nervous breakdown, he submitted his resignation to the church congregation,

(00:39):
announcing he had enrolled in an embalming school in Indianapolis
and intended to devote his time in the future to
that work. The congregation accepted his resignation Sunday night and
named the Reverend Claude Garrison of Fairmount as his successor.
The Reverend mister Saunders, thirty six years old, was assigned
to the local church after having served in Eton, and

(01:01):
was one of the youngest ministers ever assigned to a
Methodist church here. Following the acceptance of his resignation Sunday night,
he announced that he would move his family, his wife
and two small sons, as soon as the children who
have been ill the last week recovered. Mister Saunders had
served two years as secretary of the Wabash Ministerial Association

(01:22):
and had been active in many branches of church work.
Last year, when the annual Methodist conference was held in Huntington,
the congregation of the local church petitioned that the reverend
mister Saunders be returned to the church here for a
period of five years, the first time such a request
ever had been made by a Wabash Methodist church. Two

(01:43):
years ago, the reverend mister Saunders was involved in rumors
which circulated over the county, in which it was asserted
that telephone operators in the local exchange had tapped the
wire while he was in conversation with a young lady
at various times. The rumor became so general that he
called a special meeting of his congregation and placed the

(02:03):
entire matter before the members. He offered to resign at
that time, but members of the congregation refused to accept it.
They adopted a resolution stating that a thorough investigation had
been made of the rumor and that the charges were
found to be false. Telephone operators who were involved in
the rumor also signed statements stating that they never heard
the reverend mister Saunders make any improper statement over the telephone.

(02:26):
All the affidavits and other information were published locally at
the request of mister Saunders. Several telephone operators were dismissed
as a result of the case. Indianapolis, Indiana, February third,

(02:50):
nineteen thirty four. After twelve hours of investigation, police last
night found themselves lacking any clue to the identity of
the slayer of Res Reverend Gaylord V. Saunders, thirty six
years old, whose body was found in his automobile yesterday
morning with a bullet through the brain. Robbery was the
only possible motive advance by city detectives and doctor John E. Weittenbach,

(03:14):
Deputy coroner, who investigated. A valuable watch, a diamond ring,
and the contents of the reverend mister saunders pocketbook all
were missing when the body was discovered behind the steering
wheel of his car on Fortieth Street, a short distance
east of Meridian Street. The Reverend mister Saunders roomed at
seventeen twenty five North Meridian Street. He was pastor of

(03:37):
the Wabash Street m E Church and Wabash until his
resignation last Sunday, and had divided his time between Indianapolis
and Wabash since September. He had been a student in
the Indiana College of Embalming, operated in conjunction with the
Indiana University Medical Center since September. His widow, missus Neoma Saunders,

(03:58):
who had continued to live in Wabash, came to Indianapolis
immediately and was questioned by city police and attaches of
the Coroner's office. Neither her testimony nor that of Theodore Mathers,
nineteen roommate and fellow student of the slain man, opened
any definite avenue that investigators might follow. Both asserted that

(04:19):
the reverend mister Saunders had no enemies, an opinion that
was corroborated by members of the Embalming School faculty. Missus
Saunders said that there had been no friction between them,
and that she had spent Monday, Tuesday, and Wednesday with
him in Indianapolis. Mathers is the last known person to
see the former pastor alive. He told police that the
reverend mister Saunders left their rooming house some time between

(04:42):
midnight and one o'clock yesterday morning with the intention of
driving to Wabash. He frequently left for his home at
late hours. Mathers said. Reconstruction of the crime given most
credence by police was that the reverend mister Saunders picked
up one or more hitch hikers, as he was known
to do, and they killed him with robbery as the motive.

(05:02):
Fellow students asserted that he carried considerable sums of money
with him. His pocketbook empty was found beside the automobile.
Missus Mma by Heard thirty nine forty seven North Meridian
Street discovered the body. She noticed the automobile about four
thirty o'clock in the morning, shortly after rising, and her
attention was drawn to it because the motor was running.

(05:25):
Two hours later, as she was leaving to board a bus,
she saw the car still there, found the body and
notified police. Motor policeman James Graham and Donald Milburn found
the body lying on the front seat. They found his
hat and a pint bottle half full of whiskey on
the floor in the back of the car. No trace
of a weapon was found. The bullet entered the back

(05:48):
of the reverend mister Saunders head and penetrated through to
the front, fracturing the skull. Doctor Whitenbach has returned no
verdict and the investigation is still under way, but he
is that suicide was an impossibility. Mathers said that the
slain man had been drinking before he left his rooming house,
and that he had been in the habit of drinking

(06:09):
several weeks. The young man expressed the highest regard for
the reverend mister Saunders. He was like a father to me,
Matthews told detectives. Although he was not born in Indiana,
the reverend mister Saunders was reared in this state, and
virtually all his experience in the ministry had been in
the North Indiana Methodist Conference, which he entered in nineteen twenty.

(06:32):
He held pastorates in Eton and at the Whitely Emy
Church in Munsey before going to Walbash. Survivors are the widow,
two sons, William Saunders thirteen and James Saunders ten, four
brothers and a sister. One brother. The Reverend Eldridge Saunders
is pastor of the Unionville m E. Church. His parents

(06:52):
are not living. Indianapolis, Indiana. February fourth, nineteen thirty four.
Missus Gaylord V. Saunders gave Theodore Mathers ten dollars to

(07:15):
have her husband killed, and Mathers paid eight dollars and
fifty cents for a revolver and did it himself. Yes,
I fired the shot. Mathers admitted in the Wabash City
prison last night, after he had been arrested in that
city on information sent by local police. Ted did it
and I helped him plan it, Missus Saunders exclaimed, when

(07:36):
she too was taken to prison. They said they both
feared the man whose death they accomplished. Missus Saunders and
Mathers were being returned to Indianapolis early this morning. They
had gone to Wabash to make arrangements for the funeral
of their victim. Missus Mabel Balke of Wabash, Missus Saunders
nurse was arrested as an accessory to the act and

(07:57):
is being brought to Indianapolis with Missus Saunders and Mathers.
Mathers said that Missus Balkey knew of plans for the
slag and that the revolver and Saunder's ring and watch
were concealed in her home. Yesterday, Ross Kurtz, a Wahbash youth,
was sent to Missus Balkee's home to destroy the incriminating articles.

(08:17):
Kurtz was not held. Missus Balkey later made a confession
in which she said that Saunder's mind had been affected
several weeks and that his family had lived in constant
fear of him, finally plotting the murder to dispose of him.
Missus Balkey said that Missus Saunders had suffered from tuberculosis
the last year. Masel Roe, nineteen years old, a friend

(08:39):
of Mather's, was implicated in the slayings and confessed to
local police that he was present when Mathers shot Saunders.
Roe is held in the city prison on a technical
charge of murder. The slaying itself was superimposed on an
amazing mosaic of emotions, and one pattern was a sordid
theme of abnormal affection. According to Roe's statement to police,

(09:02):
Mathers made a full confession telling how he and Missus
Saunders decided on Saunders's death three weeks ago, how she
gave him ten dollars and told him to have it done,
but instead he had Roe by the revolver for eight
dollars and fifty cents, and he Mathers did the deed himself.
How he returned the revolver along with the slain man's
ring and watch on the night after the murder, and

(09:23):
he outlined Missus Balkey's part. Mathers's confession involved Roe deeper
in the plot than Roe had admitted in his own statement.
When Mathers's friendship with Saunders became so close that the
former pastor threatened to kill Missus Saunders and their two boys,
Mathers took matters into his own hands and decided to
put Saunders himself out of the way. Roe asserted Mathers

(09:46):
was motivated by his regard for the Saunders family. According
to Roe, and after the murder was committed, seemed affected
more by a feeling of relief that he had circumvented
the death of Saunders's two sons than by remorse over
the slaying that he had committed. Michael F. Morrissey did
not press Missus Saunders to elaborate on her brief admission
that she was implicated in the plot to kill her husband.

(10:07):
She has been ill for some time and has been
under the care of a nurse. The Chief permitted her
to return to her home with the understanding that she
was to be prepared to come to Indianapolis with the police.
Here she will be questioned further. Mathers and Roe both
came to Indianapolis from Coalmont Clay County, Rowe to attend
the Indiana Central Business College, and Mathers to enter the

(10:29):
Indiana College of Embalming. Saunders and Mather's room together at
seventeen twenty five North Meridian Street. Mathers was questioned by
police immediately after the murder and maintained that he knew
nothing about it. He accompanied Missus Saunders to Wabash to
help arrange for the funeral. Missus Marie Merrill, operator of

(10:50):
the rooming house where Saunders and Mathers lived, told of
hearing an argument on the street a short time after
Saunders left his room early Friday to begin an automobile
trip to see his face family at Wabash. Employees in
a restaurant nearby gave a description of the men seen
with Saunders. Mathers had advanced the suggestion that Saunders had
been killed by hitchhikers and informed police pointedly that Saunders

(11:13):
was in the habit of picking up hitchhikers when he
took automobile trips. Saunders was said to have been drinking
heavily since he resigned his pastorate in Wabash and came
to Indianapolis to enter the embalming school. Leon Mathers of Jasonville,
a brother of the man under arrest, said last night
that Theodore Mathers had been morose more than a year
following in illness. The younger brother, Leon Mathers, said had

(11:36):
talked freely about the murder case without intimating that he
was implicated, and told him that he and Saunders had
been on regular drinking spreeze for the last two weeks.
Mathers was arrested in Missus Saunders's home eight minutes after
Fred Simon, chief of Indianapolis Detectives, requested action by Wabash Police.
Following the questioning of Roe, police said Roe told them

(11:59):
that Mathers had several times said I'm going to have
to kill Saunders, and that Thursday night, when the three
started out for a ride after a drinking party, Mathers said,
I'm going to kill him tonight. The party stopped several times,
purchased whiskey and drank it in the car, according to
the police statement from Roe. During the third stop, the

(12:20):
statement said, Mathers shot the minister and then drove the
Saunders car to Fortieth Street with the dead man beside him,
stopping on fortieth Street near Meridian, but leaving the motor running.
Mathers and Roe left the car. Mathers removed the victim's pocketbook,
diamond ring, and wristwatch. He took three dollars from the pocketbook,
which he said was his money held by Saunders. The

(12:42):
empty pocketbook was tossed to the running board to give
color to the theory of robbery. Mathers and Roe returned
to the rooming house, where the slayer turned over to
his companion for concealment the pistol and articles taken from
Saunders's body. Roe then left to go to his own
room on East Walnut Street. Friday afternoon, after the widow
had come to Indianapolis and made preparations for the return

(13:05):
of the minister's body to Walbash, Mathers sought Row again
and recovered the weapon in Saunders's ring and watch. Satisfied
that they had disarmed suspicion of any part in the crime,
Mathers accompanied Missus Saunders to Wabash. With him, he took
the pistol, ring and watch, and in Wabash these articles
were concealed under the floor of a bedroom closet at

(13:26):
the home of Missus Mabel balking Missus Balkie was said
to have knowledge of the intention to kill the reverend
Mister Saunders and the nature of the articles taken to
her home. Yesterday, Mathers employed Ross Kerts, twenty years old,
of Wabash, to go to the Balky home with instructions
where to find the hidden articles. He was ordered to
destroy them. This the young man endeavored to do. In

(13:50):
the basement, he battered them with an axe. The fragments
he carried out into the country and threw away some
bits of the watch and of the gun escape eight
Kurtz's eyes, and these were found in the Balky basement.
Complete information that might show a motive for the slaying
has not even been brought out, police said Indianapolis, Indiana,

(14:19):
February fifth, nineteen thirty four. While Theodore Ted Mathers and
his alleged accomplices in the ten dollars murder of the
Reverend Gaylord V. Saunders of Wabash remained in communicado in
the city prison. Yesterday, arrangements were being completed for a
quick trial. All loose ends of evidence will be assembled

(14:42):
today and the case will be presented to the grand
jury tomorrow or Wednesday. Herbert E. Wilson, prosecuting attorney, said,
last night police reported confessions from all persons in the case.
Officials did not question them yesterday, but said that all
will be interrogated again today to clear up details. Missus
Neomas Saunders, victim of tuberculosis, and the former minister's widow,

(15:05):
who admitted that she instigated the murder plot, and Masel Rowe,
nineteen year old friend of Mather's who was present when
the shot was fired, are charged with murder, as is
Mathers himself. Missus Mabel Balky, Missus saunders nurse and friend
who is alleged to have aided in the plot, is
charged merely with vagrancy, pending further investigation. Ross Kurtz, nineteen

(15:28):
year old former high school athlete of Wabash, is held
in that city on a vagrancy charge, but will be
brought to Indianapolis today by Harry Ridgeway, Wabash Chief of Police.
Kurtz is said to have disposed of the death revolver
and Saunders's wristwatch and a diamond ring, acting under direction
of Missus Saunders. Kurtz assisted Wabash police in recovering a

(15:50):
part of the revolver from the Salamony River yesterday, and
the stone of the diamond ring was found in the
basement of the home of Missus Balki, where Curtis had
tried to crush the weapon and ring with an axe.
Missus Saunders and Mathers, and their confessions to police, said
that Saunders of slaying was determined upon because the wife
feared for the safety of herself and her two sons

(16:11):
at his hands. Missus Saunders asserted that quote, I believe
mister Saunders was losing his mind, and I had filed
papers to put him in an insane hospital, and I
was afraid to tell him I had filed the papers.
On the other hand, the Reverend Eldridge Saunders, brother of
the slain man, who was pastor of the Methodist church
at Uniondale, made an emphatic denial yesterday that his brother's

(16:34):
mind had been affected through our years in the ministry.
I was very close to him, he said, and had
occasion to know him intimately. He never drank, never smoked,
and was of unquestionably good moral character. I believe I
would know as well, if not better than anyone else
about him. As to stories regarding his sanity. I believe

(16:55):
him entirely sane. I have had recent conversations with him
and had a letter from him last Monday. He had
the same keen mind that he'd always had, and to
me there was no suspicion whatever of insanity. Why he
resigned from the church, I do not know. At the
time of his resignation, he told me his wife's delicate
health was the reason for his decision to change his work,

(17:16):
and that the duties of the wife of a pastor
were telling on her health and he believed it would
be best to get into another field of human service.
These counter charges caused Michael F. Morrissey, Chief of Police,
to order delay and cremation of the slain man's body
until the investigation is completed. Doctor John E. Weittenbach, Deputy coroner,

(17:37):
who has also been investigating the case, said that an
autopsy probably will be performed and that an examination of
the brain will be made in an effort to determine
whether the minister could have been mentally unbalanced.

Speaker 2 (17:49):
To avoid future commercial interruption, join us at the Safehouse
www dot Patreon dot com. Slash true crime historian rent
is just a buck a week so you can enjoy
I add free editions of over four hundred episodes, exclusive content,
access to the boss and whatever personal services you require
www dot Patreon dot com. Slash true crime historian The

(18:11):
Past Is Present.

Speaker 1 (18:15):
Mathers and Roe appeared bewildered when taken from the cells
in the City Prison for photographs. Missus Saunders was nervous,
while Missus Balkey, who is said to have connived in
the death plot, acted as though dazed. More questioning by
police seemed the principal fear of Missus Saunders. She wrung
her hands, pushing back unruly hair in her straggling permanent wave,

(18:37):
and cast quick glances around the room as photographers focused
their cameras. Then, in a whispering voice, she called Chief
Morrissey to her side and asked, are we going to
be questioned again? Missus Balkey, a large buxom woman, stared
straight ahead and seemed to hear or see nothing until
someone asked which is the nurse. When Missus Balkye was

(18:58):
pointed out as the one referred to, she said, what's
that and then paid no more attention. Missus Saunders was
dressed in a smartly tailored gray striped dress with black trimmings.
She is small and frail and wears glasses. Missus Balki
was attired in a dark blue dress with small red
button trimmings and a necklace to match. Mathers's appearance seemed

(19:21):
to worry him most. When taken from his cell, he
asked for a comb and Roe gave him one. Then
he insisted on combing his hair before having his picture taken. Mathers, tall,
slender with curly hair, was nervous and jumpy, and his
head bobbed as he talked. I feel terrible. I need
a pill, he said. Roe, a short, chunky youth with long,

(19:43):
straight hair combed straight back, spoke only when addressed. He
said that he and Mathers both played in the orchestra
of the Colmont High School, their home town. Mathers played
the piano and he the violin. Roe was described as
a model rumor by his landlady at the rooming house.
He paid his rent in advance and was very quiet

(20:05):
and neat, she said, adding that frequently he played his
violin or guitar and sang hillbilly tunes. Mathers, however, was
a noisy rumor and drank a great deal. Missus Mary
and Moral, rooming housekeeper at seventeen twenty five North Meridian Street,
said Missus Moral asserted that he and his roommate, the
slain Saunders, kept late hours, were noisy and very untidy.

(20:27):
She said that she had been contemplating for two weeks
to ask them to move. Missus Saunders, accompanied by Missus Balkey,
appeared at the Meridian Street address Friday afternoon, about twelve
hours after the body had been found, and asked for
Saunders's clothing and other belongings. Missus Morale said that she
attempted to comfort Missus Saunders, who appeared sad and shaken

(20:49):
while at the rooming house. Mister Morales said that Missus
Saunders called Mathers by telephone and went after him in
an automobile. Later, they returned to the Meridian Street address,
and Mathers asked Missus Moral to pack his clothes and
store them, saying he would be back after them on Monday.
Missus Morale said that she remonstrated, asserting that Mathers had

(21:09):
no luggage. Just throw together my good clothes somehow and
throw away the rest, he answered. Before leaving, Missus Saunders
asked for photographs of herself, husband and two children, which
Saunders had, learning that they had been given to a
newspaper reporter Missus Saunders became indignant, although Mathers himself had
given them away. Solution of the murder of the Reverend

(21:31):
gay Lord v. Saunders is a story within itself. One
clue and opened billfold left on the running board of
Saunders's automobile. Called Lieutenant Michael Hines and Sergeants Roy Pope
and Earl Higgs of the homicide squad to discard the
theory of robbery immediately. Methodically, they set about checking all clues.
Saunders roomed in an apartment with Theodore Mathers at Coalmont.

(21:53):
Both were studying embalming at the Indiana College of Embalming.
Mathers was questioned and said that Saunders had been drinking
Thursday night and announced his intention to drive home in Wabash.
He asked me to go along, but I refused because
Saunders was drinking. Mathers told police and he was released.
Lieutenant John Sheen, who conducted the preliminary examination on the

(22:15):
finding of the body, wrote in his report, I suspect
that Mathers knows more than he has told. Lieutenant Sheen
obtained information that Saunders had been accompanied by two other
men while eating at the Brown Derby, a restaurant on
North Meridian Street, shortly before he was taken for a ride.
Going there, Lieutenant Sheen showed a picture of Saunders to
Murray Slaughter, manager, who immediately identified it as that of

(22:39):
the man who had been in his establishment with two
other men Thursday night. Returning to the apartment of Saunders
and Mathers, Lieutenant Sheen learned from missus Marian Morril that Saunders,
Mathers and another man had been there about one o'clock
Friday morning. Lieutenant Hines and his squad then shifted the
investigation to the Embalming School. Each student was questioned and

(23:00):
they found one who had been at the apartment of
Saunders and Mathers early Thursday night. Saunders was slain early Friday.
The student, whose name was withheld, said that he was
at the apartment about a half an hour and while
there was introduced to a man named Masil or Basil,
who was a student at the Central Business College. The
investigation shifted again, this time to the Business College. The

(23:24):
name of Masel Row of Colmont, hometown of Mathers, was
discovered on the school records. Mathers, in the meantime, had
gone to the student at the Embalming school, from whom
police learned the name of Rowe and told him not
to say anything. Mathers then left Indianapolis, going to Wabash
for the funeral of Saunders, who was there that he
was arrested on information provided by Roe. Indianapolis, Indiana, February sixth,

(23:57):
nineteen thirty four. Investigators yesterday determined the approximate location of
the slave of the Reverend Gaylord V. Saunders, and then
set about to construct a motive for the ten dollars
murder said to have been plotted by his wife, Missus
Neomas Saunders. New light also was thrown on the investigation

(24:19):
when Fred Simon, chief of Detectives, received information from Wabash
police that Saunders attempted to commit suicide January nineteenth by
holding his head under water in his bathtub. Doctor L.
B Romy of Wabash, who was called to the Saunders
home at that time, said that he learned that the
minister struck his wife and Missus Mabel Balky of Wabash

(24:41):
nursed for Missus Saunders when they attempted to interfere. Missus
Saunders then talked of shooting or poisoning her husband, doctor
Rami said, adding that he severely reprimanded her for saying it,
and on January twentieth, he and Missus Saunders filed insanity
papers against the minister. Police began to construct a motive
for the slaying by assembling facts presented in a maze

(25:03):
of theories dealing with insurance, money, insanity, abnormal affections, and fear.
It is reported that Saunders had life insurance aggregating from
twelve thousand to sixteen thousand dollars, although Victor R. Jose,
attorney in the law firm of Jose and Merle, retained
as Missus Saunders Council said that the insurance probably would

(25:25):
not exceed six thousand dollars. Missus Saunders, in a confession
to police, said that realizing her husband was going insane,
she feared for the life of herself and their two children,
Billy ten and Jimmy thirteen, because he had threatened them
three weeks ago. She said that she plotted with Mathers
to have him killed, giving Mathers ten dollars to hire

(25:46):
an assassin. Doctor John E. Wittenbach, deputy coroner, said that
he had made tests of the blood and tissue which
revealed important information. Authorities in the meantime are inclined to
worry about the health of Mathers and Missus. Missus Saunders
is afflicted with tuberculosis and confinement in the Marion County
jail will aggravate her condition, while Mathers is reported to

(26:08):
be suffering heart disease of a serious nature. Ross Kurtz,
nineteen years old, former high school athlete at Walbash, who
admitted destroying the weapon used in the murder of Saunders,
was released on his own recognisance yesterday when he was
brought to Indianapolis on a vagrancy charge in connection with
the investigation. Harry Ridgeway, chief of Wabash Police, interceded for Kurtz,

(26:31):
asserting his role was merely that of an unwitting accessory
who had been imposed upon. All defendants in the murder
case will be held in communicado until police are through
questioning them. Fred Simon, chief of Detectives, said, we have
yet to establish a positive motive for the murder and,
if possible, the exact location of the shooting. He added,

(26:52):
before the investigation can be completed, the entire case, from
start to finish must be gone over thoroughly, and the
prisoners questioned again to see if we can develop new angles.
This might enable us to get a new slant on
the murder and arrive at a motive. A good mother,

(27:17):
excellent cook, and a neat housekeeper. Thus is Missus Neoma Saunders,
remembered by her friends in Wabash. She is the cool,
deliberate type who had a place for everything in her home,
saw that things were kept in place, and was able
to manage affairs of the family comfortably on the salary
of her husband, the Reverend gay Lord V. Saunders, Methodist minister,

(27:39):
whose death she is accused of plotting. Her friends in
Wabash can't yet reconcile themselves to the fact that she
actually plotted her husband's death, although she is said to
have confessed, But few, if any of her friends, with
the exception of Missus Mabel Balky, neighbor and nurse of
Missus Saunders, were aware of all the ramificationations of the

(28:00):
domestic affairs and relations of the minister and his wife.
Missus Saunders, who was strict in the management of her
household and the disciplining of her two children, continued to
be coldly deliberate When she was confronted with other difficulties,
her smile settled into grim lines of determination. Her countenance
became sharp and calculating. As home life became more and

(28:22):
more unnatural, Missus Saunders's resolution to force a change hardened
under the promptings of a strong will and infirm body.
Her husband was said to have threatened her life and
that of her children when he attempted to commit suicide.
The result was the death of waning love. Missus Saunders
was fond of Theodore Mathers. An alternative presented itself, that

(28:45):
of having Saunders adjudged insane, but Missus Saunders shared her
troubles with Mathers. That was like priming dynamite with acid.
For Mathers unstable and with a fatal flare. For the dramatic,
could see himself in what appeared to him as a
heroic way. The consequence, almost inevitable, was murder. Mister and
Missus Saunders met fifteen years ago. Both were twenty. Then

(29:09):
they fell in love and were married in Akron, Ohio.
Saunders was studying for the ministry. He gained success in
the pulpit as an orator and was in demand as
a pastor. Two children were born. The family lived happily
until Missus Saunders and one of her sons, Jimmy, contracted tuberculosis.
About that time, Saunders began to change in his attitude

(29:31):
toward her. He had been the gentle but exacting husband.
Now he became the demanding husband. The boundary of his
home was too restrictive, and he sought vicarious pleasures elsewhere.
Missus Saunders felt his interest slipping. She could not hold
him even by accepting the new relationship. He was changed,
but now she too was changed. He came to Indianapolis

(29:54):
and became Mathers's roommate, often taking the younger man home
for week end visits. Soon, the husband's roommate became the
wife's confidant. And soon yes, I shot him, Mathers told police,
and I helped him plant it, Missus Saunders said. Now
she sits in the cell in the Marion County Jail,

(30:15):
awaiting trial for murder, frightened and morose. There's no doubt
about her nervousness. Not only the impending murder trial weighs
heavily on her mind, but she ponders the welfare of
her children. Her sharp, steely penetrating eyes became smiling and
moistened yesterday afternoon when her brother in law brought word

(30:37):
that he and his wife were taking care of the children,
but her interests lagged again and she lapsed into silence. Indianapolis, Indiana,
February seventh, nineteen thirty four. I don't believe I've done wrong.

(31:02):
I'd do the same thing if I had it to
do over. Theodore Ted Mathers, nineteen year old embalming student
and confessed slayer of the Reverend Gaillard V. Saunders, shrieked
yesterday he offered to commit suicide. Quote if I've troubled
anyone unquote. Mathers, who is said to have not more
than three years to live because of a heart disease

(31:24):
which requires a strong stimulant as medicine, expressed his readiness
to swallow an overdose. Give me some, he cried, I'll
end at all. I did the right thing. Why all
this disturbance. I didn't want to trouble anyone, he chattered,
bobbing his head as he spoke. He held up his wrist,
showing a scar, and shouted, that's why I killed him.

(31:46):
Mathers declared that Saunders attacked him with a butcher knife
and cut him one night while sleeping with Saunders's two
children in the parsonage at Wabash. Mathers asserted the minister
attacked him with a knife. Saunders also made other similar
attacks the youth, said. Missus Neoma Sanders, thirty five years old,
who is alleged to have plotted the ten dollars murderer

(32:06):
of her husband, was aware of the attacks, Mathers said.
Missus Mabel balky thirty two years old, a nurse held
on a vagrancy charge as an accessory in the murder,
was released on five thousand dollars bond yesterday. Missus Balkie's
release was one of a series of maneuvers taken by
the state as it neared completion of the investigation and
assembled evidence to be presented to the Marion County cran

(32:29):
Jury by mister Wilson Today. Judson L. Stark, former Marion
County a prosecuting attorney, yesterday, was retained as attorney for Mathers.
He would not reveal the defense that he will present,
but asserted, I believe the boy is insane.

Speaker 2 (32:44):
Enjoy ad free listening at the safehouse dubbadubbadubba dot Patreon
dot com. Slash true crime.

Speaker 1 (32:53):
Historian Leiana December thirteenth, nineteen thirty four. Her life with
a sex crazed husband who throughout the week engaged in
strange erotic practices and poured over postcards and booklets of

(33:14):
the sort, pedaled furtively in obscure corners, and who then
eloquently preached the Gospel from the pulpit of a church
on Sunday, was described in Boone's Circuit Court this afternoon
by missus Neoma Saunders, on trial for the murder of
her husband, the Reverend gay Lord V. Saunders, of Wabash.
Missus Saunders took the witness stand at exactly three o'clock

(33:37):
and testified for two hours in her own defense, unable
to proceed at times because of the tears that choked
her voice. Missus Saunders denied that she had plotted with
Theodore Mather's nineteen year old embalming student to kill her husband.
Denied that she had ever engaged in any love passages
with Mathers save on two occasions forced on her by

(33:59):
her usband. Denied that she had ever written Mather's ardent
letters or gone on drunken sprees with him, denied that
she had ever given Mathers any money, except to buy
groceries when she was visiting her husband at the Indianapolis
apartment shared by him and Mathers, and denied with a
special vehemence that she had given Mathers ten dollars for
the specific purpose of hiring a killer to do away

(34:22):
with her husband. The court room was jammed to capacity
and a wave of suppressed excitement ran over the densely
packed rows of men and women when at three o'clock ELSA. O.
Rogers Lebanon, member of the defense staff, said, Missus Saunders
take the stand, demurely garbed and wearing the close fitting

(34:43):
black hat she is worn throughout the trial. Missus Saunders
walked to the witness box, and, after detailing the circumstances
of her early life and the first fifteen years or
so of her married life with Saunders, launched into a
narrative that might have graced the pages of Freud, Krafteving
and haloc Ellis, or other experts who have explored deeply

(35:04):
among the dark byways and devious windings of abnormal psychology.
The audience that might well have blushed at some of
the statements that came from Missus Saunders's lips, was listening
too closely to be embarrassed by the fact that they
were listening to things that are rarely even whispered. Everyone
in the big room leaned forward and kept utter silence,

(35:26):
not wanting to miss a word. They had to listen
closely if they wanted to hear, for Missus Saunders spoke
in such a low tone that her voice was barely
audible beyond the railings behind the jury box. At certain
points in her testimony, she apparently found it impossible to
go on, and was helped over some of the rougher
passages by mister Rogers, reluctant word by reluctant word. Missus

(35:49):
Saunders told how her husband, once in the Indianapolis apartment
occupied by the two embalming students Saunders and Mathers, and
again in the parsonage of the Wabash Street Methodist Church
at Wabash, had forced his wife to perform immoral acts
with Mathers for his own apparent entertainment and against her
own frantic protests, and on the first occasion, at the

(36:10):
point of a knife, and of how he assured her
and Mathers that he considered it perfectly all right for
his thirty five year old wife and the nineteen year
old student to have these relations. She told of her
own marital relations with Saunders and how his sex mania
reached a point where her own health was affected and
she would be ill for days. She told of the

(36:32):
filthy and obscene booklets and photographs he brought into the
parsonage on his trips home over the weekend, and of
how he would force her to read the books and
look at the pictures with a view he said, to
modifying her own coldness toward him. At coldness and indifference
that she said never existed. The books, bearing such titles
as A Night in a Moorish Harem, A Night in Arabia,

(36:55):
and Naughty Stories, and a half dozen photographs were entered
as evidence of exhibits and were passed from hand to
hand among the twelve jurors, the jurymen handling them as
if they were loathsome insects. Missus Saunders said her husband's
abnormal preoccupation with sex affairs and his subsequent brutal abuse
of her all took place within the last year before

(37:17):
his death. And became especially marked in the weeks just
preceding his killing, for which Ted Mathers and Masele Rowe
also were indicted. He struck me, he pulled my hair,
he choked me, and he threatened many times to kill me,
said the widow of the slain minister. During the last year,
he drank to great excess and smoked marijuana cigarettes. He

(37:39):
drank raw alcohol, whiskey and beer. He was of a
most domineering nature. And if he told me to do anything,
no matter what I felt, I had to do it.
If I ever drank anything beside beer, it was because
he forced me to. And the only times in my
life that I've been intimate with any man except my husband,
was on two occasions when he forced me to become

(37:59):
into with Ted Mathers. Was there anything like a love
affair between you and Ted Mathers, asked mister Rogers. There
was not, missus Saunders replied, with a violent emphasis on
the word not. She said she understood that Ted had
a girl, and that the young man was very fond
of the two Saunders boys, William and James. Her husband,

(38:22):
she said, had introduced her to Mathers in the English
hotel shortly after the two men became roommates, and she
doubted if she had ever seen Ted Mathers more than
ten times in her life. Missus Saunders said that her
husband did not cease his abuse of her and his
unreasonable demands on her, even when she lay ill in
bed in the parsonage. Her illness diagnosed by doctor Lester

(38:44):
b romy of Wabash, the Saunders family physician, as incipient tuberculosis,
so far as going to dance halls and drinking beer
and engaging in various other activities as brought out by
the state's witnesses, Missus Saunders said she had been to
dance places three times in her life, and that every
time the suggestion of going to these places had been

(39:05):
made by Saunders and she had accompanied him. Missus Saunders
went into the matter of the occasion on which she
was alleged to have said, as testified by other witnesses previously,
that she wanted to kill Saunders when he was unusually
drunk and abusive toward her at the home of Missus
Mabel Balki, Missus saunders friend of many years and nurse
in her recent illness. Her previous testimony had brought out

(39:28):
Saunders had attacked his wife in the Balky garage. We
had taken Gaylord to Missus Balkie's house because we didn't
want the boys to see him in the condition he
was in, said Missus Saunders. He attacked me in the
garage and struck and cursed me. I had a pistol
in my pocket, but I couldn't shoot him. Why didn't
you shoot him on that occasion, asked mister Rogers. Because

(39:49):
I loved him, answered Missus Saunders, in a trembling voice,
I couldn't shoot him. Doctor Rami had previously testified concerning
Missus saunders pass po ssession of a gun. He said
he had been called to the Balky home and found Saunders,
as he said, raving drunk and wobbling about the room,
and had said that Missus Saunders had said that quote

(40:11):
she would have liked to kill Gaylord, but did not
have the nerve to pull the trigger unquote. It was
also on this occasion doctor Rami said that Missus Saunders
asked him about various poisons and how she could get
some poison strych nine or maybe something even better to
kill Saunders, and that doctor Romi told her that quote,
it is ridiculous to even think of such a thing,

(40:32):
for there are institutions to take care of persons who
bring about situations like this. Unquote. This gun, not the
one with which Saunders was killed in his automobile on
February second, was mentioned for the first time in doctor
Ramy's testimony. Missus Saunders said yesterday afternoon that her husband
did not know she had the gun, and that she

(40:53):
knew nothing whatever about firearms, either how to load or
fire them. Questioned as to her inquiring of doctor Rommmy
regarding the procuring of poison to give her husband, she
said that she had no recollection of questioning the physician
along those lines. Did you ever tell Ted Mathers or
anyone else she wanted your husband killed, asked mister Rogers.

(41:13):
I never did, said Missus Saunders. And when mister Rogers
asked if she thought her husband, in spite of his
treatment of her, still cared for her, she said, I
think not, her voice breaking again and again. Missus Saunders
told of the conclave attended by herself, the Reverend Eldridge
Saunders of Uniondale, doctor Romy, and the Reverend e Earl Pittinger,

(41:35):
pastor of the first Methodist Church at Wabash, regarding the
advisability of taking steps to have Saunders put in an
insane asylum. Gaylord Saunders, while the discussion was in progress,
managed to speak to his wife alone and told her.
She said that he quote thought he would be all
right unquote if he could get out of the church
and come to Indianapolis with his wife and have her

(41:58):
take care of him. He dominated me like he always did,
said Missus Saunders. When we went back to the others,
he stood close to me and jabbed me in the
ribs with his elbow and said, now tell them, And
I said, I have decided to take mister Saunders back
to Indianapolis and stay with him there and see if
he gets better. She described the frequent trips she made

(42:18):
to Indianapolis to be with her husband, and of the
innocent nature of other excursions that had been painted in
the darkest colors by the state's witnesses, with special reference
to a trip made to Peru in company of Ross
Kurtz and Missus Balky, when Kurtz bought some whiskey with
money given him by Missus Saunders. That whiskey was bought
at mister Saunders orders. She said, I didn't approve of it,

(42:40):
and I didn't want it bought, and I didn't want
Gaylord to have it. Missus Saunders, at the beginning of
her testimony, told the decorous story of her early life,
her marriage with Saunders, and their life before and after
he entered the Methodist ministry, a strangely peaceful path to
have reached its abrupt and tragic termination, and his death
by pistol. She told of her childhood in Winchester and Albany,

(43:04):
the death of her mother when she was a little girl,
her graduation from Albany High School, and of a year
and a half spent in Akron, Ohio with her sister,
missus Mary Cleverdon of Cyoga Falls, Ohio, who has been
her constant companion throughout the trial. She told of her
meeting with Saunders, their marriage and the Albany parsonage, of
their going to Newcastle, where Saunders worked in an automobile factory,

(43:26):
and of going back to Albany, where she went to
live with her family while he attended Taylor University at Upland,
and she worked in a drug store and saunders foster
father William H. Dad Haynes gave them financial assistance. They
both went after that, she said, to a Methodist school
in Barbaraville, Kentucky, where Saunders studied for the ministry, and

(43:47):
they both worked to make part of their expenses, Dad
Haynes helping out. After that, Saunders had charges successively in Daleville, Scheidler,
and later Eton. After they had spent four years in
monthly while he went to school, and they came to Wabash.
During those fifteen years, missus Saunders said she had two
children and also two children still born, underwent a serious

(44:09):
abdominal operation and suffered a severe attack of ariysippolis, during
which part of her eyelids sloughed away. At the direction
of mister Rogers, she removed her glasses, stepped close to
the jury box, and permitted the jurymen to gaze closely
at her damaged eyes. Her testimony concluded with her account
of how she was notified the morning that her husband

(44:30):
was found dead on East fortieth Street, Indianapolis, by someone
calling from Fort Wayne and telling her that papers in
the pocket of the dead man had given the address
of the Wabash parsonage. She said the name of the
dead man first was given to her as c U Saunders.
She had just finished describing her frantic attempts to get
Missus Balky on the telephone and tell her of the

(44:51):
tragedy when Cord adjourned until tomorrow morning. Doctor Romi, throughout
his testimony proved to be an exceedingly alert, intelligent, and
wary witness. He characterized Saunders as a man who was
suffering from dementia precocks and that he was the victim
of a fastly exaggerated ego and of the extremely erotic type,

(45:11):
entirely unbalanced in his sex tendencies. He told of being
called to the Saunders home soon after the affair at
the Balky home, on the occasion of Saunders's attack on
Missus Saunders in the Balky garage, and of how Saunders
cursed the church of which he was a pastor and
told him that if he Saunders could get away from
the church, he would be all right, and that the

(45:31):
doctrines of the church had come to be in complete
conflict with his own personal beliefs. Saunders apologized, then, doctor
Rami said, for his conduct at the Bulky home. A
short time before. Doctor Rami said that He advised Saunders
to enter a sanitarium for his own sake and that
of Missus Saunders, and that Saunders became very angry at
the suggestions. He said that when Missus Saunders asked him

(45:54):
about obtaining poison, he told her to go to her
friends and members of the church and get them to
help her out in her own efforts to have Saunders
sent to an institution, and she told him that it
was hopeless, that she had no friends and no way
to turn. Doctor Rami said that he believed Saunders's attacks
on his wife were directly responsible for her physical breakdown.
Doctor romy had examined Missus Saunders in September nineteen thirty

(46:17):
three and had diagnosed her case as being tuberculosis and
had prescribed rest, proper food, and tonics. That she did
not improve under this treatment, he said was due to
her husband's abuse. On one occasion, Doctor Rami said Saunders
became very angry when the physician called at the Saunders
home and threatened to kill himself and Missus Saunders, and
the next minute would claim great affection for her Missus Saunders.

(46:41):
Doctor Rami said demurrored at bringing insanity proceedings against her
husband because she dreaded the publicity that was bound to ensue,
and doctor Romi told her that such publicity was nothing
to what might happen, an uncannily correct prophecy, as later
events proved. Doctor Rami also testified that Saunders complained to
him frequently and with great bitterness regarding Missus Saunders's indifference

(47:05):
to his attentions, and that he believed this indifference was
at least partly the cause of his mental distress, and
that quote, something would have to be done about it unquote.
Doctor Rami, designating himself as a layman when it came
to matters pertaining to insanity, was very cagey about his
answers touching on this subject, but said that he believed

(47:25):
Saunders to be a dangerous man, subject to delusions of
various sorts, and that he believed Saunders was insane even
when he was enjoying himself with a party at the
Brown Derby in Indianapolis. Dad Haynes, white haired and alert
and carrying a cane into the witness box, spent more
than an hour in the witness box this morning when

(47:47):
he was recalled by the defense. From all appearances, he
was enjoying himself immensely in the cynisure of all eyes
of the courtroom. He testified in a dramatic manner that
frequently brought delighted snickers from the audience in the court,
and didn't hesitate to wave his forefinger at the state's
attorneys in an admonishing manner when they attempted to trip
him up in his testimony or required him to give

(48:08):
particular details concerning events and conversations of which his memory
retained only general outlines. If I tell you I just
think a thing, I'm not positive. But if I tell
you I know a thing, I know it, said mister
Haynes on one occasion, wagging his finger in a most
reproving manner at mister Kelly. Dad didn't like the way
Saunders disciplined the two young Saunders sons in the last

(48:31):
few weeks before his death, and was especially opposed to
the use of an implement he described as quote a
kind of a pancake turner unquote. Saunders would on occasion
punish the boys with this object, and mister Haynes said
that quote it made me awfully mad, unquote, and that
he objected still more when Saunders employed a length of hose,
though he admitted that he himself had spanked Saunders in

(48:54):
the days of yore when Saunders was a little boy
living on the Haines farm. He told of one occasion
when Saunders was disciplining one of the boys in the
bathroom with such vigor that, according to the witness, it
sounded like somebody was licking a horse in the stable,
and that he went up and told Saunders to stop,
or that he would call the police. I called him
a big coward and a bully, said Haines. I'm not

(49:17):
any good at mean language, but if I had known
any meaner things to say, I would have said them.
Gaylord looked at me very wickedly, and he said I'll
give you one too, And I said, just jump right on.
I've given you one or two myself. He also told
of a particularly violent quarrel that Sanders and his wife
engaged in last January. Dad was upstairs and heard it

(49:38):
all and said it kept up for two hours. Then
I heard somebody coming upstairs and I heard the words
come on up to bed, you yellow bastard, and I
knew it was Gaylord, he concluded. Missus Saunders cried into
her handkerchief while Dad Haines was testifying. Dad was absolutely
determined to tell all about the circumstances that led up

(49:59):
to Gaylord's son, then a boy of eleven, coming into
his home to live. And finally, mister Syphras, after voicing
many objections to the recital of these details, said in
a resigned voice, well, all right, go ahead and tell him.
Dad then gave a long and meticulously detailed account of
seeing the little boy in his church and being impressed

(50:20):
by his appearance in general neatness and brightness, and of
how he made friends with the lad And then to
his surprise, Gaylord just got out of a buggy at
the Haines farm near Economy and just stayed on. Haines
spoke of this little boy of twenty five years ago
with great affection. Levin in Indiana, December eighteenth, nineteen thirty four.

(50:46):
Not guilty. Missus Neomi Saunders, her face quivering with happiness
and relief, heard the words that set her free from
the charge of murdering her husband, and then clasped in
the arms of her two weeping sisters, prepared to leave
without an instant's delay for Missus Pace's home, where she said,

(51:07):
my two boys are waiting for me. The jury, composed
of nine farmers, two salesmen, and one country store proprietor,
left the Boone County Circuit court room at four o'clock
this afternoon to wrestle with the mass of evidence produced
in the trial of the widow of the slain Methodist
minister who is found shot to death in his automobile
in Indianapolis early the morning of February second. Warn by

(51:31):
seven days of listening to the narratives of a long
parade of witnesses and the arguments of attorneys, and by
being locked up from Friday till Monday, the twelve men
were ready to return their verdict at twenty minutes past
five o'clock. Missus Saunders, who even in this moment of
supreme relief, shed hardly any tears, shook hands with each

(51:52):
jurymen individually and thanked them for the service they had
done her. It doesn't seem possible that it's all over.
She said, that I can leave the jail where I
have been a prisoner for more than ten months, that
I am freed from this charge, that I can go
to Albany and be with my boys. William and Jimmy
for Christmas. Everything is ready for us to go this
very minute. I'm ready and that's all that is necessary. No,

(52:16):
I was not surprised at the verdict. How could it
have been anything else. Lebanon, Indiana, April twenty fourth, nineteen
thirty five. Despite a number of petitions asking mercy for him,

(52:36):
Theodore Mathers, twenty one years old of Colmont, was sentenced
to one to ten years at Indiana State Reformatory this
afternoon for the killing of the Reverend Gaylord V. Saunders
at Indianapolis a year ago. A Boom County Circuit Court
jury found Mathers guilty of involuntary manslaughter Saturday after twenty
four and one half hours deliberation. There are only two

(53:00):
things to consider, Judge John V. Hornaday said, commenting on
the petitions, which bore approximately two thousand signatures, including those
of eleven of the trial jurors. They are the defendant's
welfare and the general welfare of society. He pointed out
that the reformatory has adequate medical care for inmates and
a routine which can be adapted to a prisoner's needs.

(53:22):
A man has been killed, the court said, if the
court turns loose the man who killed him, what would
be the effect on society, particularly on a youth of
Mathers' age. Boone's Circuit court was packed for the sentencing.
Among the crowd were signers of the lenity petition. Judge
Hornaday took up item by item the reasons advanced for

(53:43):
suspending sentence. That he was of unsound mind at the
time of the slaying, that he killed the minister in
self defense, that he had served a sufficient time fourteen
months in jail already, and that she should have been punished.
A duly qualified jury heard the evidence of court and
reached the verdict. The judge pointed out, if we believe
in jury trials, we must assume he was guilty of

(54:06):
involuntary manslaughter. Judge Hornaday said, then he passed sentence. Mathers
will serve imprisonment, which the minister's widow, missus Neoma Saunders,
escaped in a trial previous to Mathers's. The jury reported
that she had committed the crime charge that of the
complicity in the slang, but was not guilty by reason
of insanity at the time. At the trial of both,

(54:29):
testimony was introduced to show that the reverend mister Saunders
had subjected both his wife and Mathers to sexual abnormalities,
based largely on the pastor's purported influence. The defense of
both defendants was aimed to show that they were temporarily
insane at the time of the slang and purported death plot.
This defense was successful for missus Saunders, unsuccessful for Mathers.

(55:00):
Did you tru