Truth Wanted 08.16 with ObjectivelyDan and Sara

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hey, everybody, Objectively Dan here. And you know what's funny.
When I was growing up, I was told that you
had to be a Christian in order to be a
good person. You couldn't know right from wrong without knowing
Jesus in your heart. Which is really interesting because I
literally just got back from Japan, which is a country
that has about one or two percent of its population

(00:20):
as Christians, and the average Japanese person I met there
was nicer than most Americans I've run across. So what's
going on here? Do we really need to, you know,
convert this entire country to Christianity or maybe they're just
fine as they are. Well, if you disagree with me,
maybe you should call into the show because we are
starting right now. Hello, Hello everybody, and welcome back to

(00:47):
another episode of truth Watch It. WHOA My mic is
going crazy right now and I'm your host, Objectively Dan.
This is the live calling show that happens every single
week Fridays at seven pm Central Time. We talk to
people about what they believe and why, and if you'd
like to call us, you can do it right now.
We are live, folks. The numbers I've one two nine
nine one nine two four to two, or you can

(01:07):
call it to your computer at tiny dot c c
slash call tw truth one. It is, of course a
product of the Atheist Community of Boston, a five oh
one C three nonprofit organization dedicated to the promotion of atheism,
critical thinking, secular humanism, and this separation of religion and government.
And every single week I always try to have a
special guest. This week is no different. It is Sarah

(01:29):
from Leaving Faith. Sarah, Welcome to truth Wanted.

Speaker 2 (01:32):
Hi, thanks so much for having me, Thank.

Speaker 1 (01:35):
You for being on with us. I can't wait to
talk more with you and aboutcha. But before we do that,
I have to tell you, guys, thank you so much
for your wonderful well wishes. Those you don't know are
wondering where I went. I did go to Japan because
I did just get married. Thank you to everybody who
sent me well wishes for that. My wedding was awesome.

(01:57):
It was great. There was a raven there that carried
my ring the wing nearror. It was pretty sweet. So
you know, folks at home who have been wondering how
it went, really well. And Japan was awesome, best trip
of my life and I am super happy.

Speaker 3 (02:13):
A year.

Speaker 1 (02:13):
Oh, by the way, I got this as well, and
I think I want to wear this for like at
least some of this dream which pretty good hat in
my opinion, pretty good hat. Sorry, folks at home that
are listening through audio. I have like the biggest Mario hat.

Speaker 2 (02:27):
Ever that I'm pretty fantastic.

Speaker 1 (02:29):
It's pretty good. It's pretty good. Definitely my drinking hat
from here on out, I think, so I'm looking for
I'm thank you to everybody for the well wishes. Happy
to be back a little under the weather because I
think I dig it a little sick. But it's been
so long since I hosted I I gotta get back
on the train here. So happy to be back with
Sarah from Leaving Faith. Sarah, thanks again for joining us

(02:53):
as Sarah. If you could tell us a bit about
who you are, I'd love to hear. I love to
hear it.

Speaker 2 (02:59):
Sure. So I started a TikTok account about two years
ago that centered around leaving Faith. And I started it
because one of my friends was teasing me that I
was too old to know how to use TikTok, and
I said, no, I can do it, it's fine. And

(03:20):
I saw that people were actually having conversations about leaving
Christianity and leaving evangelical faith, and I just really wanted
to be part of it. I was like, oh my god,
there's people I can talk to about this. I grew
up Protestant, Christian, evangelical, and I stopped believing in God

(03:43):
in two thousand and nine, and so it's been fifteen
sixteen years, and I didn't really talk about it with anybody,
you know, during that after I left, and so finding
this big community online of people who who wanted to
have these conversations has been super fun.

Speaker 1 (04:03):
That's great, and there seems to be and I know
this because I've interviewed several people from this space, this
niche on TikTok, because's a niche for everything on TikTok,
but there is a niche of people who don't necessarily
run in the same traditional online spheres of this sort
of dialogue, this sort of place of ex Christian folks,

(04:24):
I'd say secular folks, but a lot of ex Christian
folks are talking about their own deconstruction process and stuff,
and not just talking about their own stories, but hosting
spaces and having these kinds of conversations. And I understand
you do this as well with some of your lives
or you talk to folks, right, I.

Speaker 2 (04:40):
Do, yeah, and mine are a little different. I don't
do debates on my lives.

Speaker 1 (04:48):
You know.

Speaker 2 (04:49):
We have a pretty chill vibe and so I don't
bring up live guests, but we just kind of chat
with the written comments, and it has Usually it's kind
of calm and peaceful and a place for people to
connect and not feel so alone as they're going through
that process.

Speaker 1 (05:10):
I'm sorry, I'm distracted by my own hat here. I
think I should take it off because we're having like
a really good conversation about you and your stuff and
what you're doing, and like, I'm just taking away so
much of that by wearing a ridiculously oversized hat. So
I'm taking it off right now. But yeah, I know
I think so too. I like it. I'm of the
same mind of you as you, Sarah. Where you know,

(05:32):
I probably do decent in debate, I don't know, but
I'm not really in debate spaces myself. Right, this isn't
really a debate show. I think that there's a place
for that, for sure, but I like the space is
what you're trying to cultivate what other people try to
cultivate where it really is just to kind of come
as you are sort of thing, Like I don't expect
people to come in and be like, oh, that's an

(05:53):
ad hominem, you know what I mean, like or start
start getting real into the nitty gritty, because like that's
not how I grew up. That wasn't really my faith
or my Christianity, right, Like my Christianity was fairly simple one, right.
It was you know, believing Jesus, I had the Holy
Spirit in my heart, and I don't know, some other
platitudes here and there. I think, I think that's just

(06:14):
a lot of people, right, So I like this approach
of just like, hey, talking to those folks that not
Like I didn't know what apologists were until I was
way older, you know what I mean. Like, I think
it's great that we debunked that kind of stuff and
people were into that. But I'm a fan of people
who are just I don't know, talking to average folks
about this kind of thing, because to me, that's almost

(06:35):
more interesting in a way.

Speaker 2 (06:37):
Yeah, yeah, I can see that for sure. I think
I enjoy a good debate, but I think it's really
hard to get a good debate, and by good I
mean one that is is productive. You know, when you
debate with people, either you're both trying to learn or

(06:57):
you're both trying to win, and probably ninety nine times
out of one hundred you're just trying to win. And
that's fine. But it just to me, is not. I
don't know. I don't think it allows people the vulnerability
to actually step back and say, I don't know if
I am right about this. You know, if it's this hostile,

(07:20):
antagonistic space and everyone just has their defenses up and
we can't actually learn and grow, I think it's just
really hard to do in a debate space.

Speaker 1 (07:29):
I like that talking about the vulnerability, because you have
to be very vulnerable to mean that you're wrong about
So I think, first of all, I don't expect anybody
that calls in to ever actually tell me, oh, hey,
I need to rethink this or maybe I'm wrong about that.
I expect that to be a thing that happens in
their head maybe afterwards, at least I hope so, because
you know, you're live on the air and it's the Internet,

(07:51):
and people will make funny for all kinds of things.
I just don't think it's human psychology, but I still
would rather have a space to where people could feel
comfortable to share that if if it even ever got
to that point, because I'm I'm on the same page,
We're on the same way. Like it's like, how can
you expect people to change their mind if they're so
busy worrying about looking not looking dumb, right, If they're

(08:13):
if they're putting all of their brain power into being defensive,
then they're not going to be able to think things
through right or or be able to really properly evaluate it.
There's a lot of pressure there, unneeded pressure that gets
added to it. So yeah, I think I think there's
a big value and that I like folks like yourself
who are doing that on TikTok and are having these
kinds of conversations because I don't know, it's it's TikTok

(08:37):
is like a nightmare realm for me sometimes because like
there's some places where it's just absolute hell zone, but
then there's like really good spaces where people are having
really good connections. So I don't know, It's a give
and take, like like most things on the.

Speaker 2 (08:48):
Internet, right, But yeah, absolutely, Yeah.

Speaker 1 (08:51):
For sure, I want to keep talking to you and
learn more about your story, and so I want to
ask you about that. But before we do that, Sarah,
we should talk about our our segment that we do
every week. It is our We Want the Truth segment.
And I'm actually gonna bring Kelly on to the stage here. Hello, Kelly,
what's going on?

Speaker 4 (09:08):
Hi?

Speaker 5 (09:08):
Dan, welcome back. It's good to have you back.

Speaker 1 (09:11):
Yeah, thank you. You're looking fabulous today. That tie is
just it's great. It's giving me like wiggles vibes. I
don't know, you look like you're.

Speaker 5 (09:18):
About cool cool yellow submarine.

Speaker 1 (09:22):
Yeah, yeah, it's great. So, Kelly, I you you got
our comments this week, you're gonna read those out for us.
I do.

Speaker 5 (09:30):
Last week we asked everybody name a time when protesting
would be an overreaction, and we got three really good answers.
This week. I'm sorry to say none of them are funny,
but they are all really, really good answers.

Speaker 1 (09:45):
That's great.

Speaker 5 (09:46):
That's number three from Ironclad Alibi. Name and time when
protesting would be an overreaction when your team winsrue true?

Speaker 1 (09:56):
Yeah, yes, oh my god.

Speaker 2 (09:58):
That's a little funny.

Speaker 5 (09:59):
Yeah, and it happens, you know, I guess That is
a little funny, because I've seen some pretty over, pretty
funny overreactions to sports sports wins. Number two from our
favorite person, Miranda Renzberger, it's an overreaction to protest a
person in the costume reading books, two children with their

(10:22):
parents present. And I'm in total one agreement with you
on that one.

Speaker 1 (10:27):
Miranda, Yeah with you on that one. Good comment, Maranda,
good comment.

Speaker 5 (10:30):
I thought so too. That was awesome. And our number
one answer from know what the time people boycotted Starbucks
for having a red holiday cup comes to mind for
me when an overreaction.

Speaker 1 (10:43):
Oh my god, yes, yeah, that totally was. It's like
a Josh Feierstein. Josh Feerstein started that. You remember Josh Feerste.
I don't know what he's doing these days, that guy.

Speaker 5 (10:54):
Hopefully nothing right, I hope so too.

Speaker 1 (10:57):
Yeah, probably probably grifting. I don't know they usually do
these days. But yeah, man, what a time, What a
time when red holiday cups were Can you imagine that
being your biggest word?

Speaker 5 (11:09):
Yeah, that was the whole thing, tearing society apart was
running cups.

Speaker 1 (11:14):
Incredible, incredible, Thanks yeah, oh my good. Thank you Kelly
for reading our comments this week what's the prompt for
this week?

Speaker 5 (11:22):
The prompt for this week is the Aliens thought they'd
have an easy time on Earth, but they didn't anticipate
blank that we should get some good answers. I could
think of a couple of good answers right off the bat.
How about you two, You got any good answers for
that one?

Speaker 1 (11:37):
Yeah, I'm gonna say flat earth like cause because like
they're they be the most they would know better than us, right,
They're they're watching us from Afar and they're like, wait,
what do you mean think the Earth is flat? Where
do you think we came from? You know what I mean?

Speaker 6 (11:53):
Like that?

Speaker 1 (11:54):
I think they'd be pretty flabbergasted by that flat earthers,
you know, talking to them?

Speaker 2 (11:59):
Yeah, you Sarah, Well, it kind of goes along. I
was just gonna say human stupidity.

Speaker 1 (12:06):
Yeah, it's in the same ballpark. I'd say it's around that.
You know, we have a great we're great at ingenuity
for being accomplishing a crazy wow. Okay, wow, I'm you
can tell them rusty folks, Oh my gosh, this is crazy. Anyway,
human beings can accomplish great things, but also we can
accomplish great access stupidity. It's incredible how stupid we can

(12:30):
be as a species. I think that's a marvel in itself. Anyway,
that's all I want to say. What were you gonna say, Kelly.

Speaker 5 (12:34):
I was just gonna say I always see people contribute
a lot of things to conspiracy theories, and I always
looked a lot of them and say that was just
somebody being an idiot. One day, you know, I.

Speaker 1 (12:43):
Want to Yeah, I want to meet the alien version
of Alex Jones and see what they would be fun, right, yeah,
like they're putting chemicals, putting chemicals in the water. Yeah, yeah,
something like that. Yeah, like yeah, it's oh man, that's great.
That's great. Kelly, thank you for thank you contributing. Yes,
thank you so much, and we'll catch you back in
the background there. So thanks Kelly for our question of

(13:06):
the week. So that's our prompt this week, folks. If
aliens sorry, the aliens thought they'd have an easy time
on Earth, but they didn't anticipate blank. So leave your
comment below. We'll read our top three for next week,
and I want to see what you guys come up
with with that. I'll be very curious. So anyway, back
to you, Sarah, So you are like many people in

(13:26):
this space where you're obviously very passionate about this. You
said that you first deconverted in two thousand and nine,
but you're talking about this issue now in twenty twenty five,
so obviously this is a big deal for you. So
why is this a big deal? Tell me about your
story with that.

Speaker 2 (13:41):
Yeah, So, my belief in God and what I considered
relationship with God was enormously important to me when I
you know, when I was in college, I went on
several international mission trips. I kind of started sort of
running with like a charismatic group, and I eventually kind

(14:06):
of got into like prophecy and then fasting and just
really it got more and more intense, especially after I
traveled internationally and when I was in my PhD program
those first two years, I was in a habit of
I would I fasted twice a week and then I

(14:29):
would set aside two hours every day to read and pray,
and so it was like, you know, even though I
was in kind of this stressful academic program, it was like, Nope,
like my relationship with God is it, Like that's my
most important thing? And I really felt like, you know,
careers background, but I'm here to do God's work. I'm

(14:50):
here to bring his kingdom, and I just want to
do whatever he wants me to do. And so when
I started questioning everything, it was earth shattering. You know,
my entire world turned upside down. And I didn't have
anyone to talk to about it because all of my
friends at the church I was going to, you know,

(15:12):
we couldn't really discuss it because they were just trying
to talk me back into it, you know. And then
my non Christian friends were like, well, what's the big deal, Like, Okay,
you don't believe anymore. I'm like, no, no, this is
this is devastating, right. And you know, back in two
thousand and nine, like there really wasn't much social media
at all, and so I didn't have I didn't even

(15:34):
have like an Internet community to connect to. And so yeah,
finding TikTok and finding people talking about it, it's been
really cathartic for me just to like have these conversations
that I've had built up in my brain for fifteen years.

Speaker 1 (15:50):
That is so true what you said about like like
you're having this trouble because you're sort of disassociating yourself
from this identity that you've had entire life, and other
people just kind of being like, like, what's the big deal?
I don't understand. Like that is one of the biggest
struggles I think of being sort of an activist in
this space. I'd say, because when you talk with other

(16:12):
folks who may politically agree with you on every other
thing under the sun, I found that folks who don't
tend to have that religious upbringing don't always understand why
folks like us might want to talk about these things
because it was our whole lives. If it's not your
whole life, it may not make as much sense, but
it was your whole life, and it is your identity,
and suddenly you can talk about these doubts and these

(16:34):
feelings and these these these things you've had built up
inside for years and years and years, Like that's not
only cathartic, it's liberating, it's it's it's it changes everything right.
And at least that's a feeling for me. I certainly
haven't forgotten. Certainly sounds like you haven't forgotten, And I
would love to give that same feeling for other people personally.
I mean, like, that's that's one of the reasons why

(16:56):
I like to do what I do. But it sounds
like you're in a similar boat where it's like, hey,
this is this is a big deal. Then it's still
a big deal now right.

Speaker 2 (17:03):
Yeah. Yeah, And you know I get asked to that
by Christians a lot too, like, well you don't believe anymore,
just move on? Well I did, but at the same time,
you know, it did. It's something that deeply affected me
for such a long time that it is worth still
talking about.

Speaker 1 (17:21):
And yeah, it is.

Speaker 2 (17:22):
Worth creating spaces for people like I don't want to
pull the ladder up behind me, you know, I want
to keep whatever that cliche is about that, but like
I want to help other people where I didn't get help,
you know, so it does. Yeah, it still means a
lot to me.

Speaker 1 (17:40):
Yeah, it's funny when Christians say that, because it's like, hey, oh,
you never go to a Christian and be like, hey,
oh you got saved, So what why do you keep talking?

Speaker 2 (17:49):
Right?

Speaker 1 (17:50):
They talking about it every Sunday. What do you mean,
Like that's that's their big thing. If they can have
their thing, why can't we have ours?

Speaker 7 (17:56):
Right?

Speaker 1 (17:56):
But no, it's like, yeah, I like realizing how how
much of a restriction, that is, and you sound like
you're a part of at least a Christian environment, because
lots of Christian environments are different. But the stuff you're describing,
the fasting, the dedicated priyer time, it sounds like it's
high control in some ways, right, And that can be

(18:18):
so crazy when you realize you don't have to live
that way and still be a good person, still have
a happy and fulfilling life, still do all the things
that you want to do. I didn't think that was
an option for me, right, So you know, I can
only imagine what thats been like for you, especially doing
stuff in your PhD program. And it sounds like too
that you had trouble expressing that with folks in your life.

(18:38):
So I imagine they weren't too keen on you leaving
the faith. Huh.

Speaker 2 (18:42):
Yeah, Yeah, I had some hard conversations and eventually I
lost all of those friendships. You know. It just every
time we would get together, they just would try to
convert me back, you know, and eventually you just feel

(19:03):
like a project rather than you know, a friendship, and
so that became really difficult.

Speaker 1 (19:10):
Yeah, And do you miss those friends today? Do you
still try to keep in touch with them at all
or is it just not really contact with a lot
of folks in that life.

Speaker 2 (19:19):
Yeah, I mean the confounding factor there is that I
also moved so when I finished my program, I got
a job in a different state. And I mean, I
love them, you know, and if there was a way
that we could have a friendship where they didn't feel
obligated to try to save my soul, I would love

(19:40):
to do that. But you know, if our entire relationship
is them thinking I'm going down the path to hell
and they have to pull me out of it, like
we can't have a friendship that way, Like that's not
it's just not healthy.

Speaker 1 (19:55):
Right right. Yeah. I thought it was interesting, at least
from my experience that I had some friends, very few
that I still talk to. Most of my I'd say,
from that life, I don't anymore. But it's like, hey,
isn't the whole thing like trying to stop people from
going to hell? Like some of them did try to
talk to people, some of them just kind of gave up.
It was like, wait, what's the I thought this was
the whole point was to evangelize and to you know,

(20:17):
get people on board with the with the big j man, right,
But yeah, it seems like it's at a certain point
you try to lose it. And you said something earlier too,
where you said it was hard to talk about like
doubts and stuff with people in your community. It's so
interesting because some Christians who say, you know, who've talked
about my story and probably yours and others will say, well, look,

(20:39):
the reason why the left is because they weren't in
faith communities anymore. If they just stayed in the church
and stayed in there, right, then they'd still be there.
And it's like, well, yeah, you could say that about
I don't know, cults, right, like, yeah, they probably still
be on the call if they didn't leave. I don't know.
I don't know if that works too well for someeople's points.

Speaker 2 (21:00):
But anyway, well, and I think I have said this
multiple times to Christians when they say why do you
do this? Why do you have to Why are you
trying to lead people away from Jesus? And I am explaining, no,
this is support for people. Well why do you need support?
And I have to explain, well, we need support because
of the way that Christians treat us. We need support

(21:24):
because when we try to express doubts. It's not a
safe place for us to do that, and you know
it's and I think Christians have to grapple with that
of Okay, as a community, how do you want to
manage this? Because I mean I agree with you in
that if you're evangelical, particularly, Yeah, your whole thing is

(21:45):
saving people from hell. And I understand the fervor, like
if someone you love stops believing, oh my gosh, I'm
going to do anything I can to get them back.
Like I do get that, But I also think it's
really important for Christians in that space to say, Okay,
you know what, I did what I could. I'm going

(22:06):
to give it up to God, and I'm going to
stop trying to rest control of the situation that I'm
not in control of. And if they could do that,
I think everyone would have a little bit more peace.

Speaker 1 (22:18):
I agree with you, And you know that's kind of
the trouble, isn't it. We're not in that community anymore,
and it's hard for they don't really care for our
opinions as much if only they listen to us.

Speaker 2 (22:30):
Right, Yeah, it's true.

Speaker 1 (22:32):
Yeah, but like you know, so like my best man
in my wedding is a Christian guy Sky I've known
for like ten years. Knew him when I was still
a Christian actually when we work summer camp together. And
he's one of the few people from my life from
that time period that is stuck by. And one of
the reasons why is because I guess he didn't try that.

(22:55):
I mean, I don't think he ever did in the
entire time I've known him, ever tried to win me
back way and just respected me for where I was
at in the place that I'm at, and that's why
we've remained friends. And uh, you know, in my opinion,
he would agree with this, but I think he's a
bad Christian in some ways because he doesn't follow the
exact letter of the law and does all these things.
And that's great. I don't think you should. But you know,

(23:17):
point is, there's a human element there, a humanist element
that I if I were to become a Christian again,
let's say I did, was I was convinced, Yeah, resurrection
was the thing. There's a guy up there. I'd like
to be more like my friend in that sense where
it's like I think that empathy and compassion should should
be there first more so than the you got to
it's my way of the highway and uh, you know, hell, fire, brimstone,

(23:41):
the whole nine. Yea, yeah. But again, you know, they
don't they don't seem to think too kindly of our
opinions on these things.

Speaker 2 (23:49):
I don't know why, you know, I have had some luck,
not a lot, but some where. If Christians will hang
out in my life for a while, you know, they
they will see that hey, I'm not mocking you, I'm
not insulting you, like I'm not here to prove you wrong,
and like we can actually all be kind to each

(24:10):
other and we can all listen to each other. And
I have had some lovely conversations with Christians, and every
once in a while I will get a Christian in
my life who will say, Okay, what do you wish
Christians knew about you? Or how can we better support you?
And I'm like, oh, my gosh, thank you so much

(24:30):
for asking, Like that's incredible. Yeah, so it does happen
on occasion.

Speaker 1 (24:35):
That's incredible. I don't know if any Christians ever asked me, well,
maybe that's not true. I don't know if they have.
It's been a long time, but yeah, how great. Would
that be my ultimate dream? By the way, I would
love it if a church invited me to come like
speak with them so they like ask me questions. That'd
be great, you know, because I'm I'm totally willing people
have watched the show, have seen it to like Christians

(24:56):
on the show and talk to them and have conversations.
It's very, very rare that you see that same sort
of invitation coming from the Christian community. I don't know,
maybe some of the more level spaces, but.

Speaker 2 (25:08):
Well, it's so it is so evangelical. And I tell
this to Christians who hop on my life too, like, hey,
instead of just hopping on and preaching, why don't you
hang back and listen. And I think it's so difficult
for Christians, especially in their official Christian capacity, to not
go right into conversion mode and to let go of

(25:31):
that control for a little bit and actually stop and
allow people to express themselves and be themselves before you
try and convert them. Yeah, I think that would do
everyone a lot of good.

Speaker 1 (25:44):
That's a hard thing with Christianity, though, isn't it. Because
Christianity also says, and again there's different flavors of Christianity,
but the Christianity I had was you had to give
up yourself, like you literally had to lose your identity
in Christ. And again I say that now and think, wow,
this is like kind of cold talk, but that's what
it was, right, It's like, yeah, you have to give

(26:06):
yourself up because Jesus is your master. Everybody's a slave
to something, right. You always heard that one, And so
I think that makes it hard to have personal human
connections with people because you're kind of putting the Jesus
blinders on a little bit and saying, I'm putting this
relationship with God first before my relationship with other people.

(26:27):
And I think that's such a key reason why people
do end up losing the relationships with friends and family
over it. And I don't know, I don't see any
positives with that, right, Yeah.

Speaker 2 (26:37):
It makes everything very transactional because your primary relationship is
with God and God has a plan for you, and
you need to follow God's rules and God's desires and
carry out his plan, and so everything else is supposed
to fall by the wayside, you know. And it means

(26:58):
that if you were anything I was so deep in
you know that every interaction is is a possibility that
God's going to use you to do something, which means
that all of your interactions are they are a form
of transaction because you're hoping it's a moment that God's
going to use you to accomplish something instead of just

(27:19):
being able to be with other humans and appreciate them
for who they are.

Speaker 1 (27:23):
Yeah, that's an interesting thing you're talking about there, because
it's like you're navigating a social environment where your social
value kind of comes from how holy you really are
or what your relationship with God is. Like, like I
remember liking and we'll get to calls in a second here, folks.
I know, I know you're waiting there. We got a
couple of callers on the line. But I'm having a
great conversation with Sarah here. Okay, but yes, we do

(27:44):
have some open minds if you want to call it
as well well listen. So, so, like, you know, I
remember really like the people that had like these great
testimonies and stuff, and these people who had these great
Bible habits. Oh they're going through a Bible study plan,
they're reading everybody. I was like, wow, these are really
great people. I want to be more like them. It's
almost like Christian clout in a way, it's sort of
like there's this additional hierarchy you have to kind of navigate.

(28:07):
And I remember what I was getting really more into it.
I wanted to be more like these other folks. And
then for me it was okay, I'm gonna read more
about this, the Bible, everything, and you know, things started
not make sense. But it's interesting how again, like when
you leave Christianity, like you said, how you kind of
have to start over in a way and realizing, oh,
people don't think like that, like at all, Like that's

(28:28):
kind of just a Christian thing, or at least maybe
a religious thing. Maybe other communities can relate to that,
But I don't know. Another great reason why it's great
to have the resources being able to talk to people,
like being able to help navigate that for folks. Right, absolutely, yeah,
for sure. Anyway, say the crew told me Dan, don't
start talking. Yeah, let's Sarah talking here, I am talking

(28:49):
for like two minutes. Ere exciting. I'm just gonna I'm
gonna do this. We're gonna get to calls now. That way,
Sarah can talk to our callers and we can all
have a conversation together before we do that. I have
to thank the patron of the week is every week,
I'm always giving a shadow to the folks who donate
on Patreon. Everybody that donates is amazing. But of course
we always give a shout out to one person every week.

(29:11):
This week's patron of the week is iHeart dogs. We
love iHeart dogs, we heart iHeart dogs. Thank you so much.
iHeart dogs, and thank you to everybody that donates. It's
tied out cc slash Patrearon GW. If you want to donate,
I become a patron of the week. And with that
out of the way, Sarah, now it's time to talk

(29:33):
to some people. Have a lot of interesting calls here.
I don't know what to get first. I guess, well, hmm,
I don't know. Let's see, let's talk about let's talk
to Steve in Nebraska. Let's go to Steve in Nebraska.
He's been waiting the longest, actually because I think this
kind I think this ties into what we're talking about.
Maybe actually I have no idea. We'll figure it out. Steve,

(29:55):
you are alive on truth, wanted what's going on? Yeah?

Speaker 3 (29:58):
Welcome back, Dan prongrets on being newly wedded and happy
Easter weekend. Everyone, thanks for allowing us the opportunity to
discuss strong evidence that's so planet K two eighteen B
has extraterrestrial life and this is buzz all over the internet.

Speaker 1 (30:20):
So well, before you get into that, right because I
have on the call screen or that this may or
may not impact you being a deist or not, like
this impacts your religious faith if it's true? Is that right? Well?

Speaker 3 (30:33):
I believe that God is advanced, extraterrestrial technologically advanced beings
who've interacted with ancient people and culture. So I would
have to say, because I believe in a God that
interacts with people or has that, I would be more
of a CEUs.

Speaker 1 (30:52):
Would you know that's really interesting? I would love to
talk about that. If that's okay, Where does that belief
come from?

Speaker 3 (30:59):
Wells a lot of evidence now that there is aligen
life there are did you guys hear about this team
of Cambridge scientists who are who are strongly, highly confident
that the web, the James Web Telescope has detected by
all signatures in the atmosphere et sole planet K to

(31:22):
eighteen B. Have you guys heard this?

Speaker 1 (31:25):
I haven't heard about that. I don't know if Sarah
has either Sarah, have you heard about that?

Speaker 2 (31:29):
I saw that what was published this week, and it
was from what I read, it was not that they
were absolutely certain that it was potential. And maybe this
means there could possibly be signs of life. But I
think it's overstating it to say that we know for
sure that there is life.

Speaker 1 (31:49):
Yeah, let's say this too, Steve, because like, let's say
you're right and there absolutely is life on this exoplanet.
I'm curious, like what does that do for your god
belief there, because like I'm having trouble making that connection.

Speaker 3 (32:03):
Well, you know, it's at leaves open the possibility that
the yellow heem or through terrestrialit technologically advanced beings. I
think that we s that possibility open.

Speaker 1 (32:17):
Wouldn't it be open even if we didn't find life? Like,
why does that make it more possible?

Speaker 3 (32:22):
Well, I think that that there's if there's that there's
the strong evidence of alien life, then does that not
make it more likely that the ancient alien stag gods
could could have.

Speaker 1 (32:34):
Existed or could have Well, I'm asking you, I don't know.
I'm not trying to argue with you, like I'm generally
wondering does it make it more likely. I don't know.
I don't know that it necessarily does, Sarah, Do you
do you think so? Or yeah?

Speaker 2 (32:46):
So just if there is some type of alien life
in some way, that doesn't give us evidence of your
specific type of alien, nor is it evidence that that
specific type of alien ever made it to Earth, or
that that specific type of alien has advanced technology.

Speaker 1 (33:02):
Yeah, or can create life raising.

Speaker 4 (33:05):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (33:05):
So these Chambridge scientists with I think is sigma three
level of competence, that's over ninety nine percent. We're competent
that James Webb's telescope has detected a chemical that's known
on Earth anyways to the only exist in the presence
of life, and that I think is dia mento mento

(33:26):
sulfide or some such chemical and be produced by life.
And they detected this on this planet that's about one
hundred and twenty five light years from Earth. Now, it's
probably a planet that's mostly water, what they call high
seeing world. So we shouldn't have to panic because the
life on this planet isn't going to be the same
space bearing beings that drive the pulsars or help the

(33:49):
Earth with a comic strikes or anything like that. So Okay,
that's got kind of light flame life, so nobody needs
to hit the panic button about you.

Speaker 1 (33:58):
Know, yeah being in there to keep reorienting the conversation, Steve.
But I am curious about this because, like, I can't
debate with you about news articles I haven't read, right,
and I'm not seeking to debate either. But I'm just
very curious because it's a very unique claim here, this
idea that there's an extraterrestrial being or civilization that we
may consider to be God. And I'm still having trouble

(34:20):
with this. I need you to help me out. How
does the possibility of extraterrestrial life make a creator God
or creator civilization more likely? Because my understanding of life
is that it came just on its own, like they
didn't have to be a creator, right, Like that, there
are natural forces at play that create life. So if

(34:41):
we found life on other planets, I would assume that
they came from those same processes, right, I wouldn't assume
necessarily that there's a creator involved. So why shouldn't I
believe that?

Speaker 3 (34:52):
Well, I think there's signs of our in our DNA.
I think there's an extraterrestrial signal all the amino acids
that can be sufficiently defined by their codons first and
second base nucleotides, and you take the atomic masses of
their componential, their compuncent, their side chain, mainchain total atomic masses,

(35:16):
and you add them up. You get in an equation
that would represent a mathematical equation for a POTATORA or
an Egyptian triangle. So there's there's an alien citizen in
our DNA, all right.

Speaker 1 (35:30):
Sarah comments on that because I think you actually know
better than I would on this particular subject.

Speaker 2 (35:37):
So, the human brain loves to find patterns, and we
are good at finding patterns even when patterns don't exist.
And that's just how our brain functions. And so if
the evidence or what you're considering is taking a little
part of our DNA and if you put it in

(35:58):
a certain order and then you assign it as certain number,
and then it turns into an equation that sounds you
know when you're going that many steps. This is finding
a pattern where there isn't any Like It's sort of
the same thing when people look at at biblical text
and they assign numbers to things and they and they
think that they're secret codes in the biblical text. You know,

(36:18):
you can find a pattern in almost anything, but that
doesn't mean that it's there purposefully and meaningfully.

Speaker 3 (36:26):
Well, I forgot to mention that this pattern in the
DNA you have to fact her out thirty seven to
get the mathematical equations for a treunle. So I don't
quite know what the significance of that is.

Speaker 1 (36:35):
But I don't know what the significance of that is either, Steve,
I don't know why he brought that up. To be
honest with your.

Speaker 3 (36:40):
Yeah, I just forgot to give a pollettion.

Speaker 1 (36:42):
Okay, I'm sorry, Steve. I'm gonna be really with you.
I think what you just said was kind of rude
because you didn't actually answer Sarah at all. Were you
listening to Sarah? Did you do you have anything to
say to what she had to say?

Speaker 3 (36:55):
Well, yeah, she thinks I'm just seeing patterns. Yeah I heard.
I heard what she's saying. She's just right in this office.
Oh there's just six patterns, and you know it doesn't
mean anything since they're just random. It's just too you know,
just a random thing.

Speaker 1 (37:09):
Yeah, well, I mean what do you think about that?

Speaker 3 (37:11):
Well? Yeah, obviously there's going to be patterns when you're
trying to communicate using math. Of course, there's going to
be patterns involved, of course.

Speaker 2 (37:19):
Well, the fact that you have to knock out thirty
seven to make it work. I mean, it seems like
you are starting with your conclusion and then rearranging things
until you get to the conclusion that you want.

Speaker 8 (37:32):
Yeah, well, if you take then neurological values in the
in the very first book in Genesis and thirty seven
in Hebrew what they called Yeah, I get Steve.

Speaker 1 (37:44):
I'm sorry again. I don't think you're listening to Sarah,
at least you're not directly responding to her, right.

Speaker 3 (37:49):
Okay, So how is it that I'm supoceed to respond
when she's just dismissing my beliefs? It's just patterns, you know,
trying to see patterns that don't mean anything.

Speaker 2 (38:00):
Can you support the patterns with evidence? Like, can you
give us more evidence that would say that this isn't
just a pattern that because it does sound pretty far fetched.
So if you have a better argument or better support,
that'd be great.

Speaker 1 (38:13):
Right, Because you use an interesting word too, You use
the word communicating that people are trying to communicate with
us and that's like, you know, I see patterns, I
don't necessarily see something trying to communicate with us, Right,
Does that make sense? So yeah, go ahead, Steve.

Speaker 3 (38:27):
The evidence is there's a paper titled the Wow Signal
of the Terrestrial Genetic Code that was published about fifteen
years ago in Icarus, a Bible scientific journal Icarius by
a couple of scientists Maxim Macacow and O forgot the
other guys Surebop and glad me or Shurebo. And it's

(38:49):
all in that paper. So I'm just not making something up.
It's something I've actually read about.

Speaker 1 (38:54):
I'm not I'm not saying you're making things up. I'm
just like we we're I think we're on the same
page that there's definitely patterns, but like what we're taking
as meaningful from those patterns, I think is where we're
deferring because you're seeing a creator in this. And by
the way, this isn't something that folks who talk about
the extraterrestrial believe, right, Christians talk about this they say

(39:16):
they look at they say, look at DNA, look at
how amazingly designed it is, and that's evidence for God. Right,
So that that that's across lots of belief systems. Actually,
so this isn't that far fetched. This is actually a
very popular idea. But I think where I at least
stross skepticism is that, yeah, we can see complex things
in nature, but complexity doesn't always mean design either, right.

(39:39):
I think that there's a sort of a dichonomy there.
But we're running out of time on this call, Steve, unfortunately,
so I want to give you the last word here.
Anything else you want to say before we let you go,
or you know, anything you want to point us to.
Not any papers to read, but maybe just something to
think about.

Speaker 3 (39:56):
Yeah, you know, I'm not claiming any not making any
like God, creator of the universe claims here. I'm not
planning that like was made by some magical magic wizard
in the sky. I'm just claiming that there's this evidence
that there's the interactions that humans between humans and extraterrestrials,
and that we have a common cosmic ancestry with other life. Okay,

(40:20):
that's all I have to say.

Speaker 1 (40:21):
Okay, all right, maybe we can talk more about that
next time, Steve, but until then I will let you go.
Thanks so much for calling, and I hope you have Yeah.
Thanks for Yeah, thanks again. Hope you have a good
Easter weekend yourself. However you choose to celebrate it or
not celebrate at all, that was a call for sure, Sarah.

(40:42):
Would you think?

Speaker 2 (40:43):
I mean, I think it's a very normal human thing
to do, like we want meaning, we want purpose, and
you know, I think it's I completely understand that desire.
I think it is confirmation by you know, when you
want to see something, you will see something. And I also,

(41:08):
I guess I also wasn't following how aliens related to
God and anything supernatural and spiritual. It just seemed more
like a conversation about an advanced natural species. So yeah,
I didn't quite get that part.

Speaker 1 (41:23):
That is interesting. If it's a natural species, do you
still call it God? I guess maybe. I don't know. Yeah,
I'm willing to lend credence there. But at the same time, yeah,
I think you hit the nail on the head. It's
affirming the consequence for a lot of this right where
It's like when you start with the conclusion you want
to hear and you built it into your argument, of
course you're going to see it, right Like you could

(41:44):
do the exact same thing with the God thing. I
mean I already did. I said, Hey, I think I
look at DNA and I see Christian God. How are
you going to counter that if you're an alien guy? Right,
I don't know. So yeah, I don't know. Maybe more
to talk about their stee But again, we got, we
got to stay on one topic. Steve. If you do
call back, we got, I'd like you to respond back

(42:05):
to my guests and not talk about a paper from
fifteen years ago or whatever. Like you know. I think
I think that just makes it easier on everybody. But
I don't know. That's just my opinion. We'll talk to
some more callers in a second, but we had some
super chats come in. I just want to make sure
I read some of those. We have two dollars from
Charles Quiet, who says Sarah Rocks and I agree, Thank
you so much for that. Charles Quiet, another one five

(42:27):
dollars from Deconstruction Zone and said, the day we find
life on other planets, Christians will just reinterpret the Bible
and claim we're reading it wrong. So true, Bestie, so true.
I think that's one hundred percent of the case. I've
already heard arguments to that fact. Actually, I don't know
if you've ever heard that before, people saying, well, if
if are aliens, then they're part of God's creation and

(42:49):
may also be deserving of God's grace and stuff.

Speaker 2 (42:52):
Right, Oh yeah, absolutely definitely.

Speaker 1 (42:54):
A bit a thing. Right. Another two dollars Canadian from
absurdist atheist who says, happy zombie Jesus weekend. Come on, guys,
are we doing this? First of all, he's a lich Okay,
not a zombie. We've had this discussion, but I don't
know anyway. Yeah, so Easter weekend. I didn't even bring

(43:15):
up the Easter weekend thing at the beginning because I
kind of forgotten. I've been a bit busy lately. I
don't know about you. Easter is not really something I
think about too much. And we had another super chat
from Actually it was just on screen. If we could
get on screen because I don't have it written down yet,
that'd be great crew. I think it was Miranda Ransburger
gave ten dollars, said, if Jesus is dead this weekend,

(43:37):
who's enforcing the rules? Can we just do whatever? I
don't think that's how that works.

Speaker 2 (43:44):
Dad is still in charge.

Speaker 1 (43:45):
Dad's still there. Right, there's a whole Sun Holy Spirit thing.
It's kind of complicated. Nobody really knows, but you know
there's something going on there that says you can't do
the thing you want to do. Anyway, thank you guys
for the super chants. Very fun. Let me see, I
don't think I have Oh I do have a thing

(44:07):
I need to shout out this week. First of all,
if you want to listen to the show and audio
only form, you can go to tiny dot cc slash
an Podcasts for that. If you don't want to watch
the video, you can listen to it there. Another way
to support us is, of course, you know, sending those
super chants along with the Patreon We'll read as many
as we can, assuming, of course the RT YouTube appropriate.
And have you ever said to yourself that, Gosh, I
just really love the content the ACA makes, but I

(44:30):
wish there was a way I could get it in
my ears? Twenty four to seven all the time, we
do have you covered. We have AXPTV, which is a
constant stream of shows, clips and specials for the last
twenty six seasons of The Atheist Experience, and now also
Heathen TV, which provides clips from another show, Talk Heathen.

(44:50):
So you can watch those shows if you like. If
you like this one, you'll probably like those and listen
to some hosts that maybe've never heard of. So go
to tiny dot, CC slash xp TV or turned out
CC slash heathen TV if you want to join in
on that. Last but at least before we keep going,
I want to thank the amazing, awesome, stupendous crew for
doing what they do every week, especially today. We had

(45:13):
to do some setup today make sure we were all good,
and you know what, We're all good and we're having
a great time. So thank you crew for that, and
let's move on. Let's move on, Shelly, this is a
call in show, after all. This is I think an
interesting question. This is a question for you, Sarah. This
is Chris calling in from Michigan. Chris, you're alive on

(45:33):
truth wanted. What's going on?

Speaker 4 (45:35):
Hello, I'm doing good. This is big question specifically for Sarah.
If there is a higher power, is it most likely
a floofy, cute local banana or of fluffy big dog
bark fit cars.

Speaker 2 (45:51):
I think it is most likely a fluffy big dog
that bark set things. I feel like that that encompasses
the aggression of the natural world as well as the beauty.

Speaker 4 (46:04):
Okay, well, thank you. I know I have my higher
power to pray too. I will share face for you.
Doggy treats to it and okay, that's all.

Speaker 1 (46:13):
Thank you, all right, thank you Chris from Michigan. Boy,
that's the fastest call you've had in a long time,
quick and to the point. That's great. Big fluffy dog.

Speaker 2 (46:22):
Huh for context, I have a bunny rabbit and a
big sloufy dog.

Speaker 1 (46:29):
Yeah, there we go. There we go. Great. For the
folks who haven't seen your stuff, well, well we'll plug
at the end. Okay, if you want to see more
of I'm assuming your dog is on tiktog. Actually I'm
not sure. Are they both on TikTok Have you shown that?

Speaker 3 (46:42):
Yeah?

Speaker 2 (46:42):
And they make a lot of appearances on my lives
So there you go.

Speaker 1 (46:45):
Yeah, so uh yeah, Well we'll give plugs at the
end if you want to see big fluffy dogs and
or bunnies. Okay, but let's move on to our next caller.
There's some real interesting ones here. We'll talk to Roy. Roy,
who's calling in from Massachusetts. You are live, untruth wanted.
What's going on?

Speaker 7 (47:06):
Hello?

Speaker 1 (47:06):
Dan?

Speaker 7 (47:08):
Give me a second let me take you off speaker
because I know you don't like people having.

Speaker 1 (47:11):
Thank you so much. Everybody, Please be like Roy. Roy
is the model today. Don't call when you're on speaker.
Oh man, that's the worst. Anyway, Thank you so much, Roy.
Hopefully you're back.

Speaker 7 (47:22):
Yes, you know, I keep telling people to be like
me and they just don't listen.

Speaker 1 (47:27):
Yeah, I hear, I hear.

Speaker 7 (47:28):
You, Chris. Kudos to you, Dan. I've been watching you
for years. I'd like to see you more often on Sundays,
but I'm glad that you're on this show regularly, so
I actually have. I actually called in with two questions
in mind, and then I saw number three. Could a
good God create hell? So I'd like to respond to
that one. All of it are going to be quick,

(47:50):
and my first one is pretending to original sin in
the Bible. I don't see where the the concept of
original sin is even mentioned in the Bible, for which
all of humanity must atone. And this came up in
one of my conversations online with a theist who challenged

(48:13):
me on that, and since I'm an honest interlocutor, I
wanted to look into that and I didn't find it
so can you point me in the right direction or.

Speaker 1 (48:23):
Is it not there? That is such an interesting question
because like there's a lot of theological concepts that you
people take for granted as oh, this is just what
Christianity is, but then you kind of realize, oh, this
is just like the opinion of Paul actually, and like
Paul kind of shaped Christianity, and and you know, it's

(48:44):
been a minute, but I know they of course, you
know there's references. So sin is a really complicated concept.
I'll give like my take on and then I want
to hear Sarah's take on it. So, like there's lots
of instances in the Old Testament in which they talk
about atonement for sin in ways that are unexpected. For example,
there's more than one reference to this idea that like
people are going to be punished because of the sins

(49:07):
of their fathers and their forefathers. That happens a lot
in the narrative of like the Jewish people, which is
kind of weird because if it's all about personal atonement
and what you did, why do we have to care
about what these other people did? And it's because this
idea of sin is it has changed over time and
is obviously very different from what the original Semitic people's believed,

(49:30):
and they had different ideas for it, one of which,
of course, was this idea that God had to be
atoned in order to give blessings or to protect from crops,
you know, failing stuff like that. There's a lot of
that kind of stuff that happens with Yahweh because Yahweh
was a lot of historians believe was actually part of
a poly polygue group of gods, right, there was actually

(49:53):
more than one God, and that's reference in the Bible
as well in some instances where Bail has talked about
a lot, right, Bail hasn't talked about as an energy
that doesn't necessarily exists, right, but it's just not as
powerful as God. So there's all these different instances. So
one of them is that he's atonement for sin and
the animal sacrifices that had to be made, like you
think about with Abraham and Isaac, right, that had to

(50:15):
be done to a tone for themselves, to a tone
for the sins of groups of people, right, not just
personal sins, but also for entire groups. So you can
even be forgiven for all kinds stuff. Anyway, I'm going
on a tangent here. But the point is, original sin
is a more of a neo concept than you might expect.
And I think you're right about this. I don't think
the original If you talk to Jews today, they certainly

(50:37):
don't talk about original sin like Christians do, and there's
not a lot of evidence for it as far as
I'm aware in the Old Testament. That seems to be
more of a New Testament idea, particular with Paul when
he talks about his telling of what Adam and Eve
is all about, and he talks about our fall and
nature and stuff like that. So in my unprofessional, unread,
unscholarly opinion, yeah, original sin kind of is kind of

(51:00):
a sketchy idea. There's some support for it, some not
support for it, but that's a lot of ideas in
the Bible. I don't know. That's me talking for a
long time here, Sarah. Any thoughts on that, Yeah, I.

Speaker 2 (51:10):
Think, I mean, I agree with you that it's a
much more New Testament idea, and probably a much more
Pauline idea, you know, versus like for all have sinned
and fallen short of the glory of God. And I
think that Christians really do go back and reinterpret the
fall to mean that, you know, the entire Earth is different,

(51:33):
the entire planet is different, and so therefore our nature
is different. And I think they just kind of use
some references to you know, Jesus died for the sins
of the world, the idea that you know, we all
require this, but it's it is, I think, a very

(51:53):
New Testament idea and it's I agree very very much
from Paul.

Speaker 1 (51:59):
Yeah, yeah, I think so. But again, not an expert,
not a scholar, just a podcast YouTuber guy. Anyway, what
we're going to say, Roy, Oh.

Speaker 3 (52:07):
That's okay.

Speaker 7 (52:08):
So I just want to steal man what you've just said.
As far as you know, original sin isn't actually explicitly
mentioned in the Bible, just a tonement for sins in general.
Am I correct?

Speaker 1 (52:20):
Well, yeah, you go ahead, Sarah.

Speaker 2 (52:24):
It depends on what you think certain verses mean. So
if it says for all have sinned, I think a
lot of people in particular denominations would say, see that's
evidence that it's impossible not to sin. There for everyone sins.
We have this nature, this propensity to sin. So it's

(52:46):
I think it depends on what a verse like that
means to.

Speaker 7 (52:48):
You right now, I was talking about the original sin
of Adam and Eve, and that's what is commonly referred
to as the original sin. But what was I correc
in my summary of your responses?

Speaker 1 (53:03):
Yeah, i'd say so, Like, you know, I've used this
way of describing the Bible before, But the Bible is
kind of like a collection of different blog posts, and
like Paul is the biggest blogger in this collection where
his opinion kind of comes in, But there's a lot
of people's opinions in the Bible. It's not a cohesive
narrative necessarily. It's not a cohesive theological idea. Like different

(53:26):
different books just kind of say different things, and you
spend your whole life as a Christian trying to figure
out what it all actually means. And at the end
of the day, I just kind of say, well, I
think it's just different people at different times interpreting this
idea differently and talking about their interpretation. So it may
not be all a singular, cohesive idea. But yeah, I
think that's again more of a Pauline idea, like Sarah

(53:48):
say it as well, it's more of a later Christian idea.

Speaker 7 (53:52):
Definitely okay, do you have time for another?

Speaker 1 (53:54):
Of course, go ahead, okay.

Speaker 7 (53:56):
So another point that was raised is sometimes we atheists
say that God is going to punish us for not
worshiping him, and I was also challenged on that, so
I looked into this. I found versus in John fourteen
which say that belief is sufficient to go to heaven,

(54:19):
but worship is not, because worship is not even mentioned,
And specifically John fourteen verses eleven twelve, which say, believe
me when I say that I am in the Father
and the Father is in me, or at least believe
on the evidence of the works themselves very truly. I
tell you, whoever believes in me will do the works
I have been doing, and they will do even greater

(54:41):
things than these, because I am going to the Father.
So this emphasizes belief, not worship. Worship isn't even mentioned.
And I wanted your take on that.

Speaker 1 (54:50):
That's an interesting idea, Sarah. Why don't you go first
on that?

Speaker 2 (54:53):
So salvation in general, I think is very contradictory. There
are verses just like that that's say, belief is what
gets you there. Then there are other verses that define
like is faith alone? Is faith you know, if faith
without works is dead and so do you have to
just believe? Do you have to have a particular type

(55:14):
of belief that yields good deeds? Do you have to
be baptized? Do you have to repent and accept that
Jesus is the king of your life? And all of
those steps you can find support for. And so the
idea that it that the Bible is clear about salvation

(55:35):
I think isn't true. But the idea that you have
to worship God in order to get to heaven, I
would agree that's not well supported. There's a lot that
says you will worship God when you get there, but
a lot there's a lot more support for belief and
then repentance and then faith with or without works.

Speaker 1 (55:56):
Yeah, this is another case I think where there's an
Old and New Testament sort of divide here. Old Testament
really seems to suggest that, no, you have to be
Jewish in order to be right with God. It's like
it's a very ethnocentric religion in that sense. There's a
lot of verses of the Jewish people going and killing

(56:17):
all the people around them for not following and practicing
the way they are, and it's not always clear that
salvation is for people outside of Judaism. That's why the
Jews are literally God's chosen people. And this is like
a you know, describing it in these sort of modern terms,
it sounds very you know, not great, right, But a

(56:37):
lot of religions have had this sort of propensity of
being for a particular ethnic group. Judaism is just one
of many that are kind of like that. And so
part of the Christian narrative is sort of turning that
on its head, where it's saying, no, this is an
idea that's acceptable for everybody. In fact, Paul and you know,
Paul talks about this when he's arguing with Peter about

(56:58):
the Jews and the Gentiles and who gets to be
accepted in all this, and and and why Jesus is
so different from traditional Judaism is that it's this sort
of salvation that's kind of available and acceptable to all.
So like what you have to do it seems to
just be believed. I think that's that was the Christianity
I was taught in growing up with. I think that's
probably the most most popular idea for salvation, is that

(57:22):
it's belief and maybe not necessarily worship. Maybe a Christian
would say, well, if you're a believer and you're right
with God, you'll you're gonna have a propensity to worship.
Maybe that's true, But also modern worship practices are very
different from what Christians back in the day did, So
I like many things from the Bible. It's unclear, but
I would say, yeah, I would. I would probably say

(57:42):
belief is more important than worship. I think that's I
think you could make that argument more than the other
way around. I don't know that's my tape.

Speaker 7 (57:51):
Then that would would that refer to belief that Jesus
existed or belief in his divinity?

Speaker 1 (57:57):
Yeah, I don't think ancient Christians when they writing the stuff,
it wasn't about whether Jesus existed or not. That was
less of a problem. It was whether he was the
son of God, right, and like did the whole dying
for people's sins thing? I think that's more important, and
like you kind of have to believe he existed to
believe that stuff too, right, I think that's kind of
part and parcel. But yeah, I think it's it's more about, Hey,

(58:20):
this guy is the real deal and he's saving us
from her sins, et cetera.

Speaker 7 (58:24):
Okay, I like to follow up a little bit about
what Sarah said about whether it's faith alone, whether it's
faith without works, or whether we must repent. And I
realized this maybe putting you on the spot for questions
that you might not be prepared to answer so spontaneously.
But I'd be curious about chapters and verses for these things.

(58:45):
And I understand that if you can't come up with
he's right on the spot. But if you could, i'd
like it. If you can't, I understand.

Speaker 2 (58:54):
Okay, So I know the faith without works is dead
is in James and yeah, okay, let me think and
I think some of those are Hebrews. Oh man, it
has been a long time, though. I can look it

(59:16):
up after you all have showdos.

Speaker 7 (59:18):
Because that'll probably help me put me in the right direction.

Speaker 2 (59:23):
I know what you can do, yeah, absolutely. You know
what you can do is if you use like Bible
Gateway online and you can just search some of these
key phrases and it'll find the verse for you.

Speaker 7 (59:36):
You know.

Speaker 2 (59:36):
So there's we are, yeah, we are saved by faith alone.
And then faith without works is dead. That should get
you one. And then there is oh, I know, Romans
nine to ten says if you believe in your heart
and confess with your mouth, then you are saved. So
that would be a little bit, you know, Romans nine

(59:58):
verse ten. I'm pretty sure.

Speaker 1 (01:00:00):
Okay, yeah, but this is another problem with the Bible though,
that we're getting at, right, So the faith of that
works is dead, that's James right, And then almost kind
of contradicts this idea that all you need is faith
because here's here's an author here saying no, it's actually
faith that works is dead. Like you know, Christianity. Again,

(01:00:20):
we've kind of been sold on this idea that it's
it was kind of this singular thing at the beginning,
and then you know, people got their interpretations later on,
but even early on in the religion, it was still
kind of divided on what any of this stuff even means. Right,
So I would take that into consideration when you're talking
about your friends about this, talking with your friends about this,

(01:00:42):
because there's not going to be one right answer here
necessarily in a lot of these cases, it's going to
be well, this Christian author said this, and this Christian
author says this, you know, and that's just how it.

Speaker 7 (01:00:54):
Talk to my friends about this much because most of
my friends are cats and they're all atheists, so they
don't really just.

Speaker 1 (01:00:59):
Think yeah, yeah, fair enough, fair enough.

Speaker 7 (01:01:03):
I also saw the question in chat could a good
god create Hell, I don't know if you have time
for my take.

Speaker 1 (01:01:09):
On it, but thirty seconds, thirty seconds?

Speaker 4 (01:01:11):
Roy all on it?

Speaker 7 (01:01:12):
Go for thirty seconds? Okay. I say it depends on
one's moral framework, and I think you and I have
similar ones because we're both vegans. My moral framework is
based on sentientism, So under my framework, no what it's
dest on what's for the well being and of a
sentient being. And I'm going to go out on a
limb and say that I don't think that an eternity

(01:01:34):
of torture is good for anyone's well being. Those paradise
is negated by loved ones suffering this torture.

Speaker 1 (01:01:42):
Yeah, yeah, I'm with you on that. If I build
the ultimate playground for the local kids to hang out with,
and then simultaneously I also build a torture place for children,
I should still be seen as a monster. It doesn't
matter that my McDonald's playplace is the best McDonald's blaypace
you've ever seen, Right, like that's I don't know, that's

(01:02:04):
my take on it. Maybe, Yeah, Sarah, you agree, disagree?

Speaker 2 (01:02:08):
I very much agree. The idea that a good God
would create any way that any creature would be tormented
forever is completely unjustified to me, and it's often presented
almost as if like God had no other choice, And
if God had no other choice, then he's not all powerful.

Speaker 7 (01:02:26):
Right right?

Speaker 1 (01:02:28):
I almost say amen to that park analogy.

Speaker 7 (01:02:31):
I like to see park analogy because I think that
the premiere ride, the premiere attraction in that Seed Park
would probably be the Holy roller coaster.

Speaker 1 (01:02:40):
Yeah, definitely, that's really good. We're being man. I don't
know what it is. It seems like this has happened
every year at Easter, where we're the most irreverent around Easter.
I don't know what it is, because usually we're pretty good,
We're pretty mild.

Speaker 7 (01:02:54):
I'm inspired by the Holy Spirit to be blasphemous around
times like this. All right, Roy, just bring it out.

Speaker 1 (01:03:02):
I dig it, I dig it, Roy, Thanks so much
for calling. Great, great call. I hope you have a
great weekend. And yeah, thanks again for calling. That was
that was funny. Yeah, we're especially blasphemous today. I think
it's just it's something in the air, but some great questions.
What do you think about that, Sarah?

Speaker 2 (01:03:20):
Yeah, definitely. You know, it's funny, I'm out of practice.
Like fifteen years ago, I would have known all those
verses off the top of my head, and I don't
remember them anymore.

Speaker 1 (01:03:31):
Yeah, I've become a master of googling stuff while people
are talking and being like, yeah, that's that's right, you know,
and then you just seem like the smartest person in
the room. That's the trick, you know. But it's all yeah,
I at the end of the day, you know, when
it comes to these arguments, are these cases, it's like, yeah,
there's some people that say this and some people that

(01:03:52):
say that. That's how it is for a lot of
these ideas, especially with Christianity.

Speaker 2 (01:03:57):
So yeah, and everyone. I always have people come in
and and say, oh, you were taught wrong. You don't
know what you're talking about here. I have the truth,
I have the correct interpretation, like I'm sure that you do.

Speaker 4 (01:04:09):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:04:10):
Yeah. The only way to win the game is to
not play it at all. Right, That's that's kind of
where I'm at with it now. I don't know, it's uh, Yeah. Anyway,
we have some other folks that want to talk to us. Sarah,
you want to keep keep it rolling, let's do it
all right? Cool, let's see we have uh man, this
one's a okay, this one's an interesting one. I think

(01:04:33):
this will be good. We got Chuck calling in from
California and Chuck wants to discuss his deconversion story. Here, Chuck,
you are live on Truth Wanted. What's going on? Hello, Chuck,
you are Live on Truth Wanted. If your phone is muted,
you should unmute it because you are live. I am.

Speaker 6 (01:04:52):
I'm sorry sticking with Dan and said correct.

Speaker 1 (01:04:55):
Yes you are, Thanks so much. Yeah, no worries. I
get it. You're waiting on the line. You put your
self on mute. It's all good. I appreciate it. Yeah,
you're live on the air. So what's going on?

Speaker 3 (01:05:04):
Sure?

Speaker 6 (01:05:04):
Yeah, I just got a couple of pupps around the
around the house and including an actual puppy, so it's
very barky. So yeah, I'll meet anyway. Yes, I'm from California.
I I know my my story. You know, this clip
might not be as clickbaity as some of the you know,
people that disagree with you but I thought that a

(01:05:25):
lot of people might find it valuable. And this is
something that I've never discussed before. So I'm telling the
story off the top of my head, So excuse me
if I, you know, meander a bit, but I'll try
to be as concise as possible.

Speaker 1 (01:05:38):
No worries. I appreciate. I appreciate your intent on conciseness.
But yeah, this is your first time telling it, so
that's a really big deal. Thanks so much for deciding
to share that on the show. I'm happy to hear it.
But don't feel like, you know, this isn't like testimonies, right,
you don't have to compete with anybody, so you don't
have to, like, uh, make your super dramatic. If it's

(01:05:58):
not that dramatic, that's okay too.

Speaker 6 (01:06:00):
No, I mean it actually is, and I'll try to
make it not so dramatic. Actually appreciate that. So I'm
forty one years old now, hard to believe. I feel
I thought I was twenty years old, but yeah, over
nine forty one. Now I'm from a northern California inner
city and uh, you know, I'm a full full disclosure
of African American. So yeah, I do think my story

(01:06:23):
is somewhat unique even in that aspect, but it's not
purely linear or so so hear me out. Yeah, like
like many young African Americans during my area, I was
raised in the church. I'm not sure if they do
that anymore, but yeah, a Baptist church, and then we
we kind of went to a interestingly started to going
to a tagalag like a Filipino church in San Francisco

(01:06:46):
when we moved in with my grandfather after my mother
got divorced. So yeah, initially mom and dad were together,
and that is significant to the story. I'm not just
telling my life story that I'll tie that back in later,
but yeah, mom and were Mom and dad were married
when I was conceived and then got divorced when I
was five, moved in with a grandfather, and then uh
started going to that Filipino church, uh in San Francisco,

(01:07:09):
So yeah, Uh my uncle was a minister there and
uh that was good. So I was like I was
all in, you know, and then we moved to the
suburb when I was about ten years old and my
I don't know if anyone is familiar with Awana, it's
kind of like a Christian boyet type of thing. Yeah,
but you can earn bad.

Speaker 1 (01:07:27):
That's a great way to describe it. It is like
Christian boy Scouts, where it's a lot of meetings in
a lot of pamphlets.

Speaker 6 (01:07:33):
Oh yeah, okay. And I was not to you know,
pat myself on the back, but I was pretty sharp.
You know. I was in a gate gifted and talented
education at that time, so I could memorize stuff pretty quickly.
So give me a pamphlet. Boom boom boom. Twenty minutes later,
I'm reciting it back to the guy and he's given
me a badge. So I felt a great sense of

(01:07:53):
accomplishment from that.

Speaker 1 (01:07:55):
You know.

Speaker 6 (01:07:55):
Obviously Mom would giving me a pad on the back
as well, so that was all well and good. Fast
forward to teenage years. I started having a slightly other
interests and U you know, started That's when I started
questioning things more so and having important conversations with my friends.
One friend in particular, Randall, he was was never raised
in the church, he had never attended church, and he

(01:08:17):
kind of laid out some things for me that I couldn't.
I couldn't make a counter argument to you. You know,
I'm just and I just remember I don't. I can't
remember all the back and forth, but at the end
of the day, you know, that night we're having our
little slumber party and playing Nintendo sixty four. He was like.
I was like, well, what if you're wrong? He was like, well,
how do you know that?

Speaker 1 (01:08:35):
You know?

Speaker 6 (01:08:35):
How do you know what's going to happen? After that
was his you know, little teenage version of a critical thinking.
So I was like, wow, I guess I don't. I
don't know for sure, and that really started me on
the path I'm starting to think. Okay, So fast forward
a couple more years. I'm in college and I you know,
I like learning. Like I said before, so I had
a wide variety of interests. My first major was actually psychology.

(01:08:59):
Don't know what I thought I was going to do
with that, but I was just interested in, you know,
understanding the even mind and even nature and within that
I was. So that was interesting in itself, obviously, But
I was doing ge at the same time. So I
had my first philosophy class because that sounded very interesting.
Introduced me to you know, actual logic, not in the
colloquial sense, but actual you know, logical arguments and how

(01:09:21):
they're constructed and all that, and the the teacher outright,
you know, I introduced, you know, a God argument, several
of the you know, classical God arguments in class, and
you know, I had several friends that, you know, fellow
Christians at the time that I was classmates with, but
I couldn't I couldn't shake it because I, you know,
like I said, I love to learn, so I depended

(01:09:42):
on the logic. They kind of shook it off, like, oh, yeah,
that's just school. But I was like, well, how can
you refute what he said? You know, because I would
participate in the discussions wholeheartedly and really engage with it
because I'm trying to get to the bottom of it.
And I couldn't you know, he made this was twenty
years ago, over twenty years ago, so I can't recall
the exact you know, conversation. But yeah, at the end

(01:10:02):
of the day, again another case where I couldn't enagle
my way around of the arguments that was presented and
how all these arguments fell, you know, the ontological et cetera, costological.
So I thought I was fun of Beacon. So I
appreciate you guys giving me time and you got the
very slack make me a little nervous.

Speaker 1 (01:10:20):
I'm letting you know it's okay. Sorry, Maybe maybe I
should cut in more. No, that I want to be
able to give your space, to be able to tell
your story. I think that's important. But because you said
this is your first time talking about it, that's a
big deal. I'm honored that you're telling me that you're
telling this telling like a bunch of people on the
internet as well, So I want to give your space.
I'll chime in though. That is very interesting that when

(01:10:42):
you finally came to it where you could examine it academically, right,
where it's outside of the scope of the pressures that
come with being in a church environment or been family
and friends, where it suddenly becomes a lot harder to
justify these sorts of things that you believe. And a
lot of people don't have that experience, right. It really

(01:11:02):
is kind of a privilege to even have that experience
in today's world, right, I mean, like you know, formal
philosophy is not something that most humans have ever been taught,
right to be able to critically think and to look
at this stuff. So it's very interesting that that was
part of your spirits go ahead.

Speaker 6 (01:11:18):
Oh, thank you, thank you. Okay, No, I do appreciate
you interjecting, just just a break up the monotony.

Speaker 1 (01:11:25):
Okay.

Speaker 6 (01:11:26):
So and I have gotten, you know, just as a
sidetrack quickly. I have gotten used to letting my voice
be heard on the internet lately, mostly nothing like this,
but mostly like on boxing channels and things of that
nature where my opinion really doesn't matter. But this is
the first time I'm really speaking from the heart on
what I went through. So I want me to continue.
So after college, me and the ex wife used to

(01:11:49):
watch The Atheist Experience all the time. I don't know
if this is roughly fifteen hard to believe, eighteen to
fifteen years ago, so yeah, I mean, I don't know
if I was watching it to reinforce my belief, for
just to see if there were any good counter arguments
against my position. But by then, after I've been through
a couple of philosophy classes, I was firm firmly atheist.
I didn't know exactly how to define myself. I've since

(01:12:13):
kind of settled on agnostic atheists is the best definition.
But we'll get to that in more detail just a
bit later. To make up a moving.

Speaker 1 (01:12:21):
So all right, all right, where we are we have
been going in the story for a little bit. Now,
I know you said you want to be concise here,
but you know that this show is about conversations. Yeah,
I'm almost right, So I've just just just FYI I'm
letting you know I got you.

Speaker 6 (01:12:35):
Okay, Okay, cool, cool, I mean as concise as a
lifetime story can be supposed to. Forty one years sure,
so yeah, so yeah, firmly agnostic atheists now four yeah,
roughly four years ago, just three and a half years ago.
My mother unfortunately suffered several traumatic brain injuries. And she

(01:12:55):
was a lifelong Christian obviously, she's the one that brought
me up in the church tred. So I was tasked
with being her full time living caretaker, and I did
teature a couple of things like that I had found
helpful after my divorce, like yoga and meditation, some more
secular things that could and that had been scientifically proven

(01:13:16):
to help rebuild the brain neurons, you know, neuroplasticity. I
don't know how much you guys know about that. I
worked it, thankfully. I studied it somewhat before prior to
this happening, So I had some background going in, but
it was obviously still a heavy bird. It's something I
listened wasn't prepared to carry. But we were doing well
for a time, and part of her our routine, because

(01:13:38):
just because she believed in it, I would put like
a little you know, hirt, like a sermon or something
playlist on YouTube and have her scroll to it because
she was actually able to scroll to the videos at
the time, I'm sorry, on YouTube, sella. I would show
her how to do that, and it seemed it seemed
to help her. And unfortunately, one night I was out

(01:14:00):
and playing softball and she had a bad fall and
uh ended up had to end up going to a
nursing home. But uh, the reason I even mention all
that is during that time, I kind of, you know,
desperate times call for desperate measures. So I kind of
slipped back into hoping that somehow the God she believed
in could save her, because that's that's where I relocated

(01:14:23):
to help to help her get better. But I wasn't.
I wasn't quite able to, uh to get us over
the top. And I feel a tremendous amount of guilt
for that. But it's a bit of bow on it.
The reason I say all that is an emotional appeal
or hoping that something is true. I've learned is never
enough reason to justify a belief, no matter how badly

(01:14:43):
you want it to be true, and somehow how much
good intention and love is behind it. So I'll be
there if you guys want to ask any questions. I'll
be happy to thank you so.

Speaker 1 (01:14:52):
Much Chuck for sharing that with us, especially again, uh,
you know, for the first time. That's uh is a
hard thing to share. I want to ask a clarifying
question because you said you felt guilty about something, and
I couldn't quite hear what you were saying there. What
were you saying that you felt guilty about? Excuse me?

Speaker 6 (01:15:12):
So, yeah, I was a twenty four seven livering caretaker
if it was just just me and I, you know,
and it was seemingly good advice that I need to
have my own life. So the thing that I enjoy
doing for myself for recreation to softball. So I was
out playing softball one night and Mom had a bad fall.
This was after I have been.

Speaker 1 (01:15:32):
Living I see, Okay for about two years.

Speaker 6 (01:15:34):
I've been living there for about two years and just
one random night I was out and she had a
bad fall. But there was no one else, I mean,
no one else could be responsible. It's not her fault.
So I put that on me still to this day.

Speaker 1 (01:15:47):
That's really that's a hard thing to put on yourself though, Chuck.

Speaker 2 (01:15:50):
Right, sometimes things are nobody's fault.

Speaker 1 (01:15:53):
Yeah. Yeah, I mean not to turn this into a
therapy session for you, because I don't know if that's
what you are asking for. But you know, when I
hear someone say I feel a lot of guilt for this,
for something like that, where that's something. I mean, you
were there, Like you said, you're the twenty four seven
assistant caretaker. You need a life of your own. Two

(01:16:13):
You can't be there twenty four to seven all the time.
You got to sleep, right, you got to have a
social life. I'm sure you're probably doing your best. That's
a lot to feel guilty about just because you were
out one night doing something else. I don't know. I
don't know, Chuck. That sounds like a pretty harsh way
to talk about yourself.

Speaker 6 (01:16:30):
It's probably right.

Speaker 4 (01:16:31):
I'm sure.

Speaker 6 (01:16:32):
I'll listen back to this conversation. Like I said, it
was just a stream of consciousness type of thing. One
more thing I want to say before I get off,
because I know I've taken up enough of your time already.

Speaker 4 (01:16:42):
That after, you know, in.

Speaker 6 (01:16:44):
My post divorce phase, when I was discovering yoga and
meditation and all that, I did fall in with a
meditation group who ended up being like on some how
can I describe it a Brahmin type of thing? And
then I have looked into some boot them things like
I can't pronounce a guy name, but that knit you

(01:17:04):
know what I'm talking about, don Anyway, I've listened to
some Buddhist audio books and I was looking at some
of the Eastern religions, you know, after just to try
to gain some sense of grounding and connection with humanity.
So in my opinion, not that I believe in a
deity again, but those things have helped me connect with
a more humanitarian side of things. I guess in the

(01:17:28):
spiritual perspective. I'm not sure exactly what I think of
all that, given all the turmoil I've gone through lately,
but yeah, I mean, I just visited my mom earlier today,
so I'm just grateful she's still around and that I
like to believe that my presence had something to do
with her enjoying any quality of life at all. So
I'll wrap it up there. Thank you guys for hearing

(01:17:48):
me out. That means a lot more than you know.

Speaker 4 (01:17:50):
Jack.

Speaker 1 (01:17:51):
I'm glad that. Yeah, I'm glad we could be that
space for you. Listen. I want you to me favor.
I want you to seriously go back later, not tonight,
but maybe tomorrow or the day after. And I want
you to re listen to this call, and I want
you to hear yourself tell that story again. And I
want you to think, what would I tell that person

(01:18:12):
if they told that story to me? And I think
that you will find you will be much kinder to
yourself that way, You really will. So I just I
want to leave you with that tonight, Chuck, and let
you go. And you know, again, thanks for sharing your
story with us. And I hope you're finding the piece
that you're looking for, especially after all those events. And

(01:18:34):
I hope that you call in again so we could
talk about other subjects too. You sound like you've got
a lot of other stories to tell and I would
look forward to hearing more of that. But until then,
thanks again, Chuck, Thanks for calling to the program. That
call took a turn that I did not expect, Sarah, Yeah,
what did you think of that?

Speaker 5 (01:18:53):
Oh? Man?

Speaker 2 (01:18:54):
I mean, I think his response is so human, you
know that we Yeah, of course you want to connect
to something bigger and greater, and of course you want
something to look out for someone you love. I mean,
I completely understand that response. I think it's totally normal
and totally human. And I hope that he can be

(01:19:18):
really compassionate with himself, like we all deserve some self
compassion and so yeah, that's what I would tell him,
is be kind to yourself, give yourself some compassion. You
deserve it.

Speaker 1 (01:19:30):
Yeah. Absolutely, Truck sounds like a very critical thinker. He's
talking about all these instances in his life where he
was thinking kind of out of the boxing, differently from
the other people around him. And sometimes real critical people
can also be critical towards themselves. I think that's what
we're here and here today as well. So you gotta

(01:19:51):
let yourself breathe a little bit, I would say, you know,
we're all human, and like you said too, there's a
time and a place when appeals to a higher power.
When you're at certain postages of life, I tend to
have less judgment on right. You know, it's not for me,
but I understand why people go to that, and I

(01:20:11):
de really don't hold it against folks too much. That's
not this kind of stuff I'm really against, more against
the kind of hate and bigotry kind of stuff, not
the I'm trying to make peace with my maker kind
of thing, right, you know. Yeah, it's a bit of
a difference there, a bit of a difference there. I
hate to leave things on a somber note and I
want to get to more calls, but we really are
at the end, and folks, thanks so much for staying

(01:20:34):
on the line. Sorry I couldn't get to you today,
but but stick around because not on this stream, but
if you go to the Atheist Community of Austin discord,
we will be doing a little bit of an after
show and Sarah said that they'll be there for that,
so if you have more questions for Sarah, you should
come to that. And of course Kelly will be there
as well, raid a host, So stick around for that

(01:20:56):
link to that end description. But it's also chining to
cc slash ACD discord. We'll we'll be doing in the
second but before we do that, I need to give
a big, big, big thank you to Sarah for being
on the show today. Sarah, thank you so much for
joining me.

Speaker 2 (01:21:09):
Oh yeah, thank you so much for having me.

Speaker 1 (01:21:12):
Yeah, it's been a real pleasure. And I can't wait
to see what more stuff you got out there. And
if people want to find your stuff, where should they go?

Speaker 2 (01:21:22):
I am here on YouTube and TikTok, and my handle
on both is at Leaving Faith and my dms are
open on TikTok. So as long as you send me
a nice DM they or not mean, then yes, I
will get back to you on TikTok.

Speaker 1 (01:21:37):
Sweet, there you go, open dms. That's a bold, bold
thing in twenty twenty five, you know. More power to you.
I don't know, I don't know. It's a hard thing,
but I appreciate that you do do it. Folks, go
check out Sarah if you want to see more of
their content. Otherwise, stick around for the after show in
just a second, where you get to hear more from her.

(01:22:00):
I want to also thank our back up host Kelly
for joining us tonight. Kelly, what'd you think of today's show?
Pretty good?

Speaker 5 (01:22:07):
Yeah, I thought it was awesome, sir, you were great.
I was really impressed. You were awesome. Thank you so
much for being here.

Speaker 1 (01:22:15):
I agree, And Kelly remind us what the prompt this
week is for.

Speaker 5 (01:22:20):
Oh yeah, the prompt this week it is the Aliens
thought that they would have an easy time on Earth,
but they didn't anticipate blank.

Speaker 1 (01:22:31):
Yes, So leave your comment below if you haven't yet,
and we will read our top answers next week. And lastly, Sarah,
before we get going, I like to ask my guests
words of wisdom, and I usually I don't know a
lot of times I tell them ahead of time. I
didn't tell you ahead of time today that was going.
I do it because I like to hear what words
of wisdom you have off the cuff. Okay, so words

(01:22:52):
of wisdom? What do you got for us?

Speaker 2 (01:22:55):
You are a human doing the best that you can
and and you do not have to be perfect in
order to be good.

Speaker 1 (01:23:03):
I love that. I love that. That was really great.
That was really great. What a great show, folks. I'm
objectively dan. This has been another awesome episode of truth wanted.
Remember to always keep wanting the truth, and we'll see
you next time. Watch the nonprofits and join the hosts

(01:23:38):
in the live chat. Visit tiny dot cc slash ytn
b

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